The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 165. Anna Wintour: Culture, Influence, and the Power of Decisive Leadership

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Why should everybody get fired at least once? As the former Editor-in-chief of American Vogue, how does Anna Wintour use fashion as a cultural and economic force? Why is Anna’s leadership style defined by the speed of her decision making?  Rory and Alastair are joined by Fashion icon Anna Wintour to answer all this and more.   Gift The Rest Is Politics Plus this Christmas - give someone a whole year of Rory and Alastair’s miniseries, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, an exclusive members’ newsletter, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. Just go to https://therestispolitics.supportingcast.fm/gifts And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestispolitics.com For Leading listeners, there’s free access to the Wordsmith Academy - plus their report on the future of legal skills. Visit https://www.wordsmith.ai/politics To save your company time and money, open a Revolut Business account today via https://get.revolut.com/z4lF/leading, and add money to your account by 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. This offer’s available for New Business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and Terms & Conditions apply. For US customers, Revolut is not a bank. Banking services and card issuance are provided by Lead Bank, Member FDIC. Visa® and Mastercard® cards issued under license. Funds are FDIC insured up to $250,000 through Lead Bank, in the event Lead Bank fails. Fees may apply. See full terms in description. For Irish customers, Revolut Bank UAB is authorised and regulated by the Bank of Lithuania in the Republic of Lithuania and by the European Central Bank and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. For AU customers, consider PDS & TMD at revolut.com/en-AU. Revolut Payments Australia Pty Ltd (AFSL 517589). Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Adam Thornton Producer: Alice Horrell Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Head of Politics: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispoletics.com. This episode is brought to you by Wordsmith. A.I. And increasingly, of course, in all the organizations we work in, we can get massively slowed up by the paperwork, the processes, the forms, the legal advice. And that's why, in business today, it's all of us, legal teams, companies are facing a choice, lead the AI shift or risk being left behind. And companies like TrustPilot, Deliveroo, SkyScanor are already leading the way,

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in Scotland, now benefiting companies worldwide. Shifts already happening. Wordsmith is helping legal teams around the world with clarity and confidence. There's free access to the Wordsmith Academy, plus their report on the future of legal skills. visit wordsmith.a.ai slash politics. Welcome to the rest of this politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alastair Campbell. And I have to say, I don't think I've ever seen our young, mainly female production team,

quite as excited as they were when we told them that you'd agreed to come on. We are talking to fashion icon Anna Winter. I interviewed Anna about 10 years ago for my book, Winners and how they succeed. and I wanted, I thought I was going to put her in the section on innovation. But I ended up making her my main profile on leadership, because in a way she's the leader, not just of a very famous magazine, but of an industry, and that's certainly how she's seen.

And the maker of a documentary about her once said, you can become famous in Hollywood without Stephen Spielberg's blessing. You can become famous in software without Bill Gould. Gates' blessing, but you can't succeed in fashion without Anna Winter's blessing. She was born in London, which is where we are now. She revisited her old school yesterday. Her dad was a very famous newspaper editor. She left school at 16, pretty determined to make it big in journalism and in fashion, editor of British Vogue by her mid-30s and editor of the job she'd always wanted, editor-in-chief of American Vogue and artistic director Condé Nass,

before she hit 40. Still a very big deal in Condé Nass, but this is a job she did from 1988 when Rihanna was born, Adele was born, Emma Stone was born, to 2025. So I've worked out this is 1,300 Scaramucci's almost, as we call them. And she's still a very, very big cultural figure, and we're absolutely doing. delighted that you're here. Thank you, Alistair. Thank you, Alist. It was actually quite the opposite of what we're doing today, going back to my old school, North London Collegiate. I hadn't been since I left, I think it was a bit younger than 16, but it was incredible to see the change, because

when I went there, it was sort of Dickensian conditions where I remember thinking of every possible excuse not to go swimming outdoors in a freezing pool and sitting endlessly. on the tube to Stanmore. They now have an incredibly diverse student body, about 700 girls, perfectly dressed in incredibly chic tracksuits. And they had a cappuccino bar, which was very welcome as it was quite early in the morning. Can we bring you back to that moment? I think it's a lovely, lovely route through.

So you grew up in a very, very different world. your mother came from a well-established American family. I think your grandfather was possibly a general. Is that right? On the British side. On the British side. And on my American side, my grandfather taught law at Harvard. And for the few people that I was lucky enough to talk to about my American grandfather,

he was an expert on trusts. And they said, it was Dick Goodwin, actually, I remember him telling me, Yes, we would sit spellbound in the class, not being able to understand a single word that he said. But for some reason, he achieved great renown. And he was also, I think, broke records at Harvard in running. Amazing. Okay. So there's that whole story of, you know, an extraordinary athlete law professor.

But on the other side, we have the two different bits of British establishment. Presumably your British grandfather, who was a major general, would have fought in the first world. War would have represented a world that passed. I mean, the world in which he was born would have been the world of Queen Victoria, the world of the British Empire, went through this crushing experience of two world wars. And then your father worked with this legendary figure, Lord Beaverbrook, again, who's a sort of part of the world of Winston Churchill. So is that a part of your family you've been interested in that kind of? Well, it's what I grew up with. and for some extraordinary reason at our household, way before the era of the cell phone,

the phone at the house was next to my bed. So I have very, very clear memories of being woken up in the middle of the night and a very gruff voice saying, this is Lord Briverbrook for Charles. Where is he? So, you know, we were surrounded by politicians and by writers, people that were cultural figures of the day. And it was just so thrilling to feel like you were. living in what I guess we would describe today as a global newsroom. I mean, I remember very clearly being in Venice on vacation as a family and my father getting so incredibly upset because tragically Marilyn Monroe had just killed herself and he thought that the paper had done the most

appalling job on reporting that story. So there was always a sense that you were living what was happening in the world. And I think both from my brother Patrick, who Alistair, I know you know, and for myself, there was no question that that was a world that we wanted to follow in. But if you grow up in London, Rory, you're very, at that time, I mean, maybe it's a little different now, but you were very much defined by where you went to school and your accent and who your parents were. And I was lucky enough to have an American mother and to be able to leave and go and work in the United States where nobody, gives a down where you come from. So, and just another hand back to us to now, is I guess there's something very interesting

about children who grow up with parents who are absolutely in their business. So you were watching your father edit this enormous newspaper, right? And you were seeing minute by minute, as you say, Marilyn Monroe, how we handle the headlines, how you deal with journalists, how you deal with owners, etc. Tell us a little bit about this. What did you learn from your father's style? And what positive and what negative lessons do you do? What's the difference between the way you edit and the way he edited?

His nickname was Chili Charlie. And I never saw that side of him. I adored my father. I thought he was an extraordinary man and someone that I so admired and looked up to and love deeply. But when I went to visit him on what was then called Fleet Street, it was a very different figure. He was very much in command, very fast in his decision making. But you could see how much he. just loved being there, Rory. It was just so thrilling to him to be there in the center of this

universe. And he also was incredibly brilliant about the people that he hired. And we were lucky enough to have many of them coming to our house at the weekends and just seeing not only where they're colleagues, they were also friends. And I think I learned a lot from bringing in people that you admire and who aren't scared of standing up to you or disagreeing with you, but you're also very pleased to see, and making fast decisions and owning your mistakes if you make them, but always moving forward. The point about decision making is really interesting, and I said in the introduction that when I came to interview for that book, I was absolutely, every day I spoke to about, you said that the thing that impressed them most was the speed of decision

making and you would like when people are showing you things you just say yes or no and often know more than that just yes or no that's the answer get on and do it and i know that one of your obsessions and certainly one of your heroes is roger federer and i couldn't help thinking of that whether it's partly that sort of a kind of tennis approach to life as opposed to any other sport i think i think it was the influence of my dad but it was also when i moved to the states and i i was given the position, first of all, as God, what did they call me then? I think I was... Editor-in-chief?

No, no, first creative director at American Vogue. And I was hired by this extraordinary man who had the job at that time that I currently hold, which is global editorial director of Vogue and chief content officer of Condonis. But when I went to be interviewed by him, he had prepared this huge portfolio, spent hours getting it perfect and pristine and he just sort of flipped through it, like took about 60 seconds says, can you start on Monday? And he had this amazing white box of an office with this immaculate black desk on it, nothing, nothing on it. And I learned afterwards the only thing that he had part from the phone was a button underneath the table when he was done with you. In my case,

it was about 65 seconds that he was done with me. He would press it and the door would open and you were ushered out. How would you define your leadership style? I like to really surround myself as much as possible with creative people that challenge me. And I also like to try and create an atmosphere at Condinasse whereby people feel there is possibility for leadership. And I love the part of my job, which involves mentorship and teaching and helping people really realize their visions. I don't think it should be AW light. It should be their point of view. And just

recently, I've been so thrilled that we were able to appoint Chloe Mal as head of editorial content at American Vogue or bring back a real star from the Middle East called Talib Chowdhury to run Hassan Garden here or the appointment

of Mark Guducci who'd worked both at Vanity Fair and at American Vogue for many years as global editorial. director of vanity fair. So it's about team building, but you mentioned Chili Charlie as your dad's reputation. I mean, you've had worse nicknames than that.

Oh, yeah. Well, the British press are not kind. They used to call me when I was working here, I think, nuclear winter. So. Famously, you were a bit like the Queen used to say, just don't get involved with people to say bad things about you. But what's your analysis

of the difference between who you are? and the kind of image, which is very, very powerful. Well, I think I have this extraordinary platform, Alistair, which I feel so honored every day to be able to use to help others, whether it's people that work within the Condinas group or on the outside. I feel that if you have the privilege of being in a leadership position, you have to use that platform to help others. I look on challenges, whether it's living through COVID or 9-11 or market crashing,

whatever it may be as opportunities to galvanize one team, one's teams and make change. So I think because I do believe in moving quickly and moving through challenging times with a sense of this is a way. that we can help others when they're struggling. So because I am quick and decisive, obviously I'm not cozy, shall I say, that sometimes people can be put off, offended. I'm not sure, but I do take, I am thrilled when I see how many people that have worked with me for many, many years move on to other positions.

How did you learn to cope with attacks? and abuse. I mean, you're a very, very high profile figure. And as you say, people accuse you being nuclear winter or people will have watched the devil wears Prada. And so the whole mythology is some bit negative. And maybe if I sort of come back to your father, I mean, how would he have coped with people being very rude about him? How did he think about people being critical or rude about him? I mean, obviously, he would shrug it off. And I think because he knew who he was and he had a strong... family behind him and many friends, I think you compartmentalize yourself. And, you know,

what you are possibly in the office is a strong leader, a decisive leader. I hope a leader that listens, but you know who you are. And I think it's important not to let any of that kind of attention throw you. And we live in a very different world now. I'm not personally on social media. I don't look much at social media, except, you know, all our own Instagram and accounts, but I don't read what is personally written about me. I don't feel that's helpful. And maybe this connects to Alaston. I'd like to bring Alastrian on this. So you talked a lot about decisiveness as a way of leading. And in Alice's book, he's very, very interested in this. You're making decisions very quickly. And I guess some of those decisions will be wrong. Some will be

Right, but the merit of them is they're being made fast. And so maybe the idea is that you could spend much, much longer thinking about decision. You'd get a slightly higher accuracy rate, but you'd lose all the momentum and the forward direction and the competence. And we run global newsrooms today. It's a very different atmosphere. I remember when I had my very first interview with Alex Lieberman and started honestly a few days later and on Fridays, everybody went to the beach because there wasn't that much to do. I mean, that's just not a world that exists today. I also want to say that, you know, I was so fortunate not only to work with Alex Lieberman,

but also with Cy Newhouse, who owned the company. And he was deeply, deeply involved with the media part of what the Newhouse family own. And his office was very, very close to mine, and he was constantly available. I can't remember calling him when he didn't either pick up an answer or reply with in. seconds. And quite early on in my career at American Vogue, we published a story about Tarzan and Jane. And I stupidly had not thought, oh God, we need a copyright. And we were sued by everybody connected with Tarzan. We were all over the press. And I was in a complete panic. This is going to cost a company millions and millions of dollars. And Sai just looked at me and he said,

focus just never had so much press it's fantastic and so you know I learned from him and from Alex that it's nothing as tragic as it might seem at the beginning that you just need to work your way through things and you know there was another incident at at the time we had our offices were on Madison Avenue and we had zero security now it's like getting into Fort Knox but it's you could anyone could walk in and our offices were invaded one day by the anti-fur activists. And they were all going all over the office, spraying, paint, and screaming, particularly at me. And I really didn't know what to do.

So I called Zai. And he came down, he always wears these little hoodies, wore these little hoodies. And he had his little hoodie on. And he just looked at them and said, you have to leave. And they left. You said when we met 10 years ago, one of the quotes that really leapt out of him, you said, I'm not creative at all. I'm not.

What does that mean? Well, I'm useless with my hands. You know, I got fired from Harper's Bazaar because I didn't know how to pin a dress. I just, I'm not someone that is, I think so much in fashion is to do with the craft at a hand. And if you're an editor or photographer or a videographer or you work in social, you see images. What I do is I put people together. You have a vision. You have a vision.

I have ideas. and I think of ideas, but I can't personally execute them. That's why you have to surround yourself by brilliant people that can take your idea, improve it, and put it out into the world. But when you finally landed this job that you always wanted, American Vogue, you're running the show. Well, it was my dad that told me I wanted it. Oh, I see. Okay, we're back to the dad.

We're back to the dad. Well, the job that you were quite keen to get your hands on, you get that job. what then, what do you define as having a vision? Because that's what I think is your strength. You know what you want to do. Well, it was a very different time, as we've discussed back then. And they had these covers on American Vogue that were very 80s.

And they had big, big hair and big, big earrings and big smiles. And it sort of cropped up here. And they're nearly always blonde. And they were always photographed by the great Richard Avedon. So I arrived, was working with Alex. And we did a cover with Dick that was very similar. And then a shoot came in that we had commissioned on Paris Couture. And it was girls walking in the street, nothing earth-shattering, but different for American Vogue.

And the picture came in of this amazing girl. Her name was Michaela. And she had on a La C-shirt with a big jeweled cross on it and gas jeans. And you could see, shockingly, a little tiny bit of stomach. And I just looked at that image and I thought to myself, this should be the cover. And it signified change. It signified modernity. Famously, the publishers rang up and said, is this the right?

Is it a mistake? And today, it's the cover that people talk to me about the most because it became such an iconic symbol of, I think, a different kind of, well, just a different attitude, different cultural shift. So does that mean that you're about the big moment? You get the big moment right. You sometimes don't know what the big moment is. It's, you know, and I know in data, spreadsheets, all of that, super important. But I tend to work much more from instinct. And I always try to walk in the street, see what people are wearing.

Like, just listen to people. I was, again, on a plane right at the beginning of my time at American Vogue when sitting next to this very kind of. kind of correct looking businessman in a nice suit. And he asked me what I did. And I explained. And he said, I just love American Vogue. I think of it as the chicest thing.

Grace Kelly, Audrey Hepburn. Never Madonna. And that just stood in my mind. And I went right back. And I put Madonna on the cover. And I'm always... The sales rocketed. I'm just so grateful to that gentleman.

So you just never know where ideas are going to come from. One of the things that is amazing is that we often think that the world today is completely different to the world of the late 80s, early 90s when you took over Vogue, because social media, because of the complete transformation in the way that television works, newspapers work. And yet somehow there's a continuity, isn't there? I mean, the world isn't quite as radically different as one might expect. some of the things we might say about today, about fashion, influencers, image, narrative. You probably could have said about the late 80s, early 90s, is that right? Yes, the platforms are just so much more vast. And we work now as this global newsroom, and we have 29 votes around the world,

and we are in constant conversation with each other about what we can syndicate, what is local, what is global, what. should go on what platform. So you're operating 24 hours with all these remarkably talented people that help you look at the world in a very different way. I think back when I started first in London and then in the United States, it was a much more local way of looking at things and because of the way we communicate and everything that is available to us today. And, you know, if I put the logo of Vogue in the middle of a big circle and you think of all these spokes coming out from it, whether it's video or film or social or digital or events or philanthropy, whatever it may be. Yes, you need

a single vision that runs through all that, but the possibilities are so much bigger than they used to be. Final one for me then back to Alistair on this. What's an example of a silly idea? What's the sort of thing, is there a sort of category of things that slightly irritate you, but which often happen in fashion. Things that happen that I have, you know, no input or influence over. I mean, our most popular piece on every single site last week and the week before was is having a boyfriend embarrassing. You know, who knew?

But like, everybody read that article. So you just never know where, what audiences are going to respond to or the conversations that they're going to start. Like we were just looking earlier at the Timothy Shalame cover, which Annie Leibovitz took for us for our American Vogue December cover. And in her head was this idea that he was this sort of celestial figure drawn from the Little Prince. But it was a subject of intense discussion from the New York Times to The Guardian. So you never quite know what's going to peak people's.

But are the things that you have learned over decades to reject, is there a kind of category of suggestions when some brilliant young person comes to you and says, Anna, what we need to do is this, where you tend to think, I've learned enough to know that that kind of idea doesn't really work. It's not so concrete as that, Rory. It's more about trying to look at everything, whatever the platform is through the lens of Vogue. And what is that? and is this right for our audiences and our landscape?

And I also, I lose this sometimes, but I always like to think of Vogue as being more elevated than some other coverage. And I think particularly in the age of AI where everything is so mass and so easily accessible, I push hard to maintain our authority, our belief in fact checking, our belief in truth, our belief in reporting, our belief in journalism, and to maintain the highest standards, whatever the platform. So I think, you know, I don't always win those arguments. I have a lot of incredible teams that push back on me and they're often, often right. And it's a very interesting time for journalism. And I do believe I talk about this a lot with my wonderful friend and colleague David Remnick at The New Yorker. Like how do we maintain our standards and how do we use AI in a way that is efficient and useful?

But it doesn't reduce our expertise or our belief in what is right as a journalist. Okay. Anna Alastair, quick break and then back for more. This episode is brought you by Revoluted Business, the all-in-one business account to manage your finances. Our world runs on exchange, trade, tax, tariffs, the quiet machinery that keeps everything moving. And everything is moving faster now.

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200 pound welcome bonus or the equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan, offer available for new business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and terms and conditions apply. Hi everybody. It's Dominic Samark here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show. The rest is politics when Rory was always. and I was filling in and enjoying Alastair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s,

a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise. People are arguing about Europe. the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all.

So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we're looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a co-opening. colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history,

the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF. for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more,

just search for The Rest is History, wherever you get your podcasts. Was there a point at which you sensed or realized that you as an individual were like becoming a brand in your own right? Was that something you wanted to happen? Like something you buy at the supermarket? No, but you know what I mean? You've become, you know, people know you as Anna.

You are a brand. You have the look. You have the glasses. You have the hair. Well, Alasar, I think it's going back a little bit to what we were talking about with my dad. Like, I'm somebody in the office that takes my responsibilities incredibly seriously. And then I have my friends and my family where, you know, it's a whole different life. But I do realize how I have a responsibility to the fashion industry and to Condinas to represent us.

But that wasn't inevitable. That wasn't inevitable that the editor-in-chief of American Vogue takes that role. You developed that role. And I just wanted if that was deliberate or it just evolved. I think it evolved. And obviously, I've been faced with many challenges over my career. And as we were saying earlier, I have. had the opportunity to take those challenges and help the industry look at them in the face and think

about how can we help rather than to shrink away from them, whether it's the AIDS crisis or 9-11, which is a very small fact, but it happened on the very first day of New York fashion week and that industry was paralyzed and we got them together and organized a fashion show and and help realize, help make the designers think we should go forward. We need to move forward. Or the crash when we started Fashion's Night Out or more recently with the pandemic, the challenges of the pandemic, which were horrific for everybody. And obviously a very, very difficult time for all of our communities.

And how could Vogue again take a leadership position? And we raised a great deal of money, created a fund called a Common Thread, and gave out hundreds and hundreds of grants of various numbers to help people just stay in business. Tell our listeners and viewers, why does fashion matter beyond the obvious? Well, I think fashion is a cultural, it's an economic force. It gives millions of people jobs all over the world, but it's also a cultural force. I think it doesn't operate in a silo. You know, we are as important in the messages that we're telling and the stories that we're telling as a great artist or a literary figure.

It's, we're defining a moment. And it's so fascinating and inspiring to me how all these different cultural worlds actually come together and help each other. We started this event in New York called Vogue World after the pandemic, which was really, The idea was to pick New York back up off its feet, where it was, obviously, I work a lot with the Metropolitan Museum, and I could see how down the numbers were visitors. I could see the restaurants were empty. I mentioned initiative of Common Thread to help designers, but I felt they needed some joy and some excitement. And we did this incredible sort of street parade meets fashion show in the meatpacking district. It was sort of like seeing what you see in Central Park.

at the weekends and it was so successful. We brought it here to London and through the graces of Andrew Lloyd Weber, he gave us one of his beautiful theatres and we raised a great deal of money again for the performing arts who had had terrible cuts here in London and we brought together opera and dance and fashion and entertainment and Stephen Daldry and Baslem and helped us and Rufus who was there at the National and it was just an extraordinary meld of cultural worlds coming together and supporting each other. And then last year we were in Paris just before the Olympics because I got so angry with everybody telling us that Paris is going to mess up and it's going to be a nightmare for the Olympics and was very lucky enough to have President Macron

give us the plus fondon for a fashion show which celebrated not only a hundred years of French fashion, French couture, but a hundred years. of sports because it had been a hundred years since the Olympics were in Paris. And then just last month we were in Hollywood celebrating the marriage of costume in film with fashion design. So again, it's about bringing people together. There's something very interesting listening to you, which is there's a sense of kind of authority and optimism.

What I mean by that is there's a sense that you represent still a consensus about what high fashion is and you have quite a confident view in the things you were just saying there about the way in which it contributes to society. Now, that isn't true, for example, about politics. Politics has gone from a world. When you were beginning your time as the running American vogue, we were getting into a period which was about to become Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, which was very centrist. Votes were on the center ground and there was a sense that newspapers were huge, television was huge, really four channels in the US, everybody was watching, I don't know, Walter Cronkite or the Dimblebees in Britain, and there was a real sense of

authority and optimism, and this is the vision of the world from politics. That's all collapsed. Politics is now unbelievably polarised, and part of that story is social media, right? There are no longer news anchors that you watch that tell you how to think about the world. You've got a million different views on TikTok, and we're all confused, we're all depressed, we're all fragmented. And what's true. And what's true. So, is a, does a bit of that happen in fashion, or is fashion somehow a complete exception

to what's happening in the broader political, cultural world? I think fashion is about individuality and self-expression. And I think we're all, as I was saying before, trying to tell stories and represent that to our audiences, our customers. And it's such an interesting time right now in fashion, because it had been, quite depressed post-COVID. I think we were all very optimistic when the pandemic ended and people were going back into real life and starting to shop again. And we were optimistic about growth all over the world. And it didn't materialize in the way that many of us had

hoped. But it's why we created Vogel World and other initiatives to help galvanize the industry to be relevant. But what's been so interesting in the fashion industry in the last year, I think it's something that I've never seen before, Rory. We have 16, I believe, 14, 15, 16 new creative artistic directors in huge houses, whether it's Chanel or Dior or Fendi or Valentino or Valenciaaga. I mean, it's incredible. They're all changing at the same time. All changed. And we just all saw those collections last October in.

in Paris and now their brilliance and their creativity and their sense of modernity and who they're talking to will be influencing fashion for the next five or ten years. And I think it really started when we lost the great Carl Lagerfeld because he had been in that position for so long, I think 40, 50 years and had been such a incredible influence. And, you know, I learned, again, so much from Carl because he was never looking at anything. in a silo. He was a photographer, an illustrator, a cartoonist, a writer, a designer, interior decorator. I mean, there wasn't anything Carl couldn't do, and he spoke 5,000 languages. But he was just such an inspiration to see how he looked at everything. And you've just lost our money as well? And Georgio, yes. Georgio was more in a, Georgia was more concrete in, I think, in, Carl was very,

fluid. Georgia was more very concrete in his vision. He was still telling a very, very strong story and he certainly influenced a great deal film, but he was more on a straight path. Carl was more of a roundabout. But I think losing those two great icons meant huge change, and that's great. It's going to be so exciting. But I do think people that are not, don't understand really the influence of fashion tend to knock it because I think sometimes people are frightened of it. They're wary of the glamour and the celebrity angle, but it is a vital, strong economic force for change and for jobs.

And it's just so creative. Just sticking with the optimism point. So you've already mentioned that you were fired more than once. I think you once said that, you know, everybody should get fired at some point. Was it just once? Maybe more. I can't remember any more. We moved on.

You moved on a few times. But you said that, you said once that, you know, everybody should get fired at some point. Yeah. You were a great believer in setback. And somebody else you said when we met, which I thought was really interesting. He said, we never have post-mortems. We do, actually. That's not completely true.

And yes, it is, I think challenges are amazing. And when I was fired from Harper's Bazaar, they told me I would never. ever understand the American market. I was lucky enough to go and work. Is that fire you up? Well, I thought they were probably right. I mean, I hadn't been in New York very long. And I can't remember the shoot that I did that was so controversial. But anyway, it was great for me because I ended up at New York Magazine working for a wonderful man called Ed Kozner, who was running a weekly magazine in New York. And I was sitting next to the political editor on one side and their legal affairs person on the other side.

And they just thought I was this crazy British girl who, you know, wore weird clothes. But once Ed saw that I knew what I was doing, he really gave me a free hand to produce all the different style issues that New York Magazine produced. And he was also such an incredibly loyal person. I learned a lot from Ed as well. There was a very, very famous American designer that got so upset about a shoot that I did that he was not included in, that he asked to come for lunch. We went for lunch in a corporate dining room with this person. And at a certain point, he was really attacking me.

Ed just said, I don't like the way this conversation is going. Anna, we're leaving. And we just got up and left the room. But there's a happy end to this was when I started, when Vogue started the Common Thread initiative, right after the pandemic, the first call I received in support of a common threat, and he gave us a very generous donation, was that person in that room. So it had a... One thing that I was just looking at your November issue. And one of the things that surprised me is that the interviews are not like the interviews you normally see in a British newspaper.

An interview in a British newspaper is generally going to have to be, or the journalists will feel they have to be quite snarrow. quite critical, not too positive, because they want to show that they're sort of alert, wary, cynical, pointing to the sort of, I don't know, the lead feet of that thing. Your profiles are surprisingly sort of positive. Celebratory. And how does that work? Because presumably the newspaper editor in Britain, who's selling the more cynical negative profile, has a reader. Who sells a dropping. Who wants to read that?

Clicks. And why do people want to read these sort of interviews? For Vogue, if we put somebody on the cover, that was a Vogue World Hollywood issue where we were really, the thought behind that issue was very much about the event that we were doing at the Paramount Studios, Vogue World Hollywood, where we were celebrating. And there's Nicole Kidman in here. And they were all in the event with us. Nicole actually opened the show, singing, put the blame on Mame. She was extraordinary. So for me, I think for all of us who work at Vogue, if somebody is on the cover, we're celebrating them.

You're not looking for a snarky New Yorker. We're not looking for a takedown. No, that's a conscious decision that we are celebrating that person. I mean, what does that mean about readers that maybe they don't necessarily want to read a negative take down? Well, they certainly seem very happily engaged with all our cover stories. So I don't believe. And do journalists sometimes come to you and say, you're the coolest fashion magazine, you're very hit,

but let's add into it kind of hyper critical academic takedown. And you have to sort of... Obviously, we have all kinds of different elements to Bo. We have a whole digital newsroom on Boe Grumway where we review all the shows, I think, very honestly. and we do do stories that look at health issues, that look at all kinds of different issues that affect young women today, including is your boyfriend embarrassing? But I don't think our job is a take-down job.

I don't think that's what our publication does. Our publication celebrates people all over the world who excel at what they do, whether it's in fashion or the creative arts. I mean, I feel very passionately that we are full of admiration and respect for what these people have achieved and what they bring into society and into our culture. And our job is to find them and to bring them to the attention of our hundreds of millions of readers all over the world. Another famous cover was Hillary Clinton. Yes. When First Lady.

And I also read somewhere, I can't remember where, on the day that Hillary. lost the election to Trump, you addressed the staff in tears. Well, it was the following day. Yeah. And I just, I just wondered, one about what you saw as the political profile of Vogue and whether it was, whether you made it more political by doing things like that, whether you think that was a good thing for the magazine. Well, we do have a history at Vogue to always photograph and profile the first, first ladies.

and HRC means such a remarkable woman and I think to a personal mentor of mine as well as a personal friend and I think that she is an example of dealing with adversity with such extraordinary grace and I have nothing but enormous admiration for her and it was that cover that you're referencing was at a particularly difficult time for her. It was during the whole Lewinsky. Yes. And I felt that she was a role model in the way she handles herself to so many people all over the world.

And again, going back to what we were talking about, Rory, I think that she deserved to be celebrated at that time. And obviously, we've had her on the cover more than once, as we have Dr. Biden and Mrs. Obama. So that is part of Vogue's rich cultural history. We have Eleanor Roosevelt. We have Melania Trump was on the cover when she married the current president. So we believe in covering politics again through the lens of Vogue. And do you have to be very careful on political I mean, are you able to come up and be critical of Trump? Or do you have to worry about losing readers or do you stay out of politics?

I mean, obviously, it's a very polarized situation, as you mentioned before, Rory. But I tend to separate my role at Condinasse and my role as a leader in the fashion industry. So I have been very much an advocate around the tariffs in the US with the white. House and also have advocated with your Minister for Culture and your Minister for Trade here in the UK and the Prime Minister to help support the fashion industry. Because I think it doesn't get the attention always from those in leadership, political leadership that it should. But you mentioned there the First Ladies, but you also have, you know, Obama said of you

that you're one of the best fundraisers going because you didn't bring all the baggage that a lot of fundraisers going. So you're out, as it were, as a Democrat. I just wonder how difficult that is with the current president. Well, there were excellent election results recently. And it was sort of ironic to me to hear our Secretary of Transport, Duffy, urge the American public to be more respectful and polite and say please and thank you to their pilots, American Airlines, I guess, and not wear pajamas on a plane the same week that our president was calling a female journalist, piggy and ugly. Maybe they need to connect their messaging. What's your feeling about the state of media right now and you're feeling about the state of politics? Well, as again, as we were discussing before,

I see the New Yorker, the New York Times, the Atlantic, the journalists that you really Vanity Fair, the journalists that you respect, that you know, believe in, excellent reporting, fact checking, all the things that we discussed, telling the truth. And unfortunately on the other side, There's a lot of fake news out there, but I think you need to obviously not ignore what is not true is what is being said by those who should know better. But you need to always remain true to facts and reporting and journalism. On the question of truth, then, President Trump's personal style, here's the way he decorates his houses, his apartments, his dress sense. What's your sense of this style? How would you define it if you were doing a fashion editor?

Do you like the golden oval office? I think he likes to be noticed. And he's good at it. He's very, very good at that. Do you see yourself now? I mean, I said you went from 1988 to 2025 and effectively the same job. Actually, it was just this year. Yes, exactly.

Which, you know, we talk about Alex Ferguson and Arsendvenger in football and longevity. Did you ever have a moment where you thought, I just have had enough of this. I'm bored. No, I love my job. I mean, every day I can't wait to go to the office. And I'm always finding the world so interesting. I love all the people that I work with.

Last night I saw a young designer, Sean, who works at Alexander McQueen, and just talking to him about what his next collection is going to be. It's so inspiring. And then I went to the Royal Courts or an amazing play. I'm going to see Brian Cranston. tomorrow night in all my sons. I mean, there's just so much to, I'm really interested in what David Byrne is doing at the Royal Court, really interested in what Indu is doing here at the National. It's Tristram at the V&A. It's just so much happening, not just here in the UK, but

equally so, the work I do with the Met in New York, there's just always so much to respond to that one wants to bring to one's audiences. And we're sort of coming towards the end, but one of things that strikes me is you have met more famous people than anyone I've ever met. Anyway, are the particular people that you've met who you've really, really liked and maybe people don't know about so much and what were their qualities and what attracted you to them? Are the two or three people for your career, you think this is really a wonderful human being? Well, I was so lucky when I moved to New York to become friends with Kay Graham, who, Washington Post,

Yes, publisher. And who was a friend of my father's. And she took me under her wing. And I watched how she was this sort of center of everything in Washington. But somehow she managed to keep her family life and her work life separate. And I admired the grace with which she worked. I admired so much the intelligence with which she worked. I thought the way that she was with people was extraordinary.

And if you think, obviously, she grew up with great wealth and great luxury, but you never felt that. She was so respectful and humble with people and didn't have the experience of working until her husband died so tragically, although obviously I'm sure she was very influenced by her father as well. But I think that if I think about a role model, to me she embodied the role of women in the last century completely and rose to every single possible occasion. So she was always my North Star. Is Roger not going to be upset that you didn't immediately say Roger Federer?

Well, I love Roger and I'm very excited that he's being inducted into the Hall of Fame next summer. He's an extraordinary person. And similarly to Kay, he's lovely with everyone. I mean, and he's, I learned a lot from him too because he talks about this extraordinary gift that he has in obviously his ability to play brilliant tennis. separately from himself as Roger the man. And he's very aware of this amazing ability he has had, and probably still has, to rise to the top of any sport.

But he is so incredibly lovely and kind and also an very intelligent businessman. He has this extraordinary mathematical brain. He's a wonderful husband. an amazingly kind father to his two sets of twins. I mean, he talks about watching the boys play tennis. And it's like, you know, any dad, like, you know, heart in their mouth, is Leo going to get the ball over the net?

And is he going to win the match? So he's just a very human person. Without mentioning names, because this is a critical question about people that you've seen in your life where things have gone wrong, wealthy people, powerful people, characters that have collapsed. Can you think of people where you really do think, oh, that's not very nice the way in which that life's gone. So don't mention names, but some sense of their personality, some sorts of things. Can I mention it? No, no, I wanted to talk.

No, you get onto the name in a second. Okay. See us the same one. Start if you can give, just give us a sense of people who you feel in your long experience of famous people. What is the less nice bit of being a famous, powerful person, where it goes wrong? I think the attention can go to, can be destructive. I'm very proud of Australia that they've taken a stand on social media and young people because I think the addiction to social media is incredibly stressful,

very harmful to mental health. So I think we live in a world where very famous people are under a microscope to many, degrees and there are those like Roger that have such a balanced life that they know how to deal with it and others that can collapse underneath it but I think it's a hurdle for anybody that's in the public eye. Can I ask you about the the profile of Bastra al-Assad's wife and whether that whether you felt at the time that was maybe a step too far on the celebratory side? Probably yes absolutely I mean I I think there's several things that I've done over my career, that if I was going to do them again, I would do them differently.

But at the same time, there are profiles of people that have been in distress and have had to overcome challenging situations that I remain incredibly proud of. Why have you never written a memoir? Will you ever? No, never. Why? I'm not that interesting, Alistair. Oh, Anna, Anna, Anna. Now we're doing this.

Seriously, I would never do that. And what people would want me to write, I could never do. Final one from me then as we come to the end. The Met and what you do for the Met, tell us a little bit about that as an exercise in philanthropy, as an exercise in celebration, as a turning point in your life. And maybe explain to British listeners what this Met deal is all about. Yes, well, I became involved in the Met well over 30 years ago. And this is the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.

And I was asked by my great late friend, Oscar DeLorenta and his wife, Annette DeLorenta, who was on the board at the Met, to help them with the Met ball that had fallen into rather sad times. There wasn't any leadership behind it. And I honestly, Rory, I had no idea what I was getting into. I said, yes. I thought, well, I'll do this. It'll be great for Vogue. You know, I'll help the museum and do it once. do it once, maybe twice, and that'll be it. And now here I am, almost 40 years later, still doing it.

But I think what people don't realize that the Metball did not become the Metball, the Met Gala, whatever you choose to call it, immediately it took many, many years of collaboration between both Condonast and the Metropolitan Museum of Art, learning how to work together, how to collaborate, putting a strong light on the wonderful work of the curator. And it wasn't until I think it was 2011 when Savage Beauty, which was the exhibition that Andrew Bolton curated around the work of the late great Alexander McQueen, because that opened very soon after his tragic death. And at the right after the Princess of Wales had worn Sarah Burton, who was then working for McQueen's wedding dress, so that it was a sort of light on that exhibition that was unlike any that we had seen before, plus the exhibition. itself was absolutely extraordinary. And after that, it really began to explode until it's become the night that it is now. And, you know, I'm very grateful to the Met for their collaboration and their respect and their understanding of how important the costume department is to the success.

I mean, our exhibitions are among the most successful ever at the museum. And after years of advocating for more space. They have now given us this incredible gallery, right, I don't know how well you know them at, but right off the Great Hall, which was the gift shop. It's 12,000 square feet. And we will be opening the Condé Montrose Nast galleries in May with our next exhibition. and Condé Montrose Nass was the founder of Condonast and Vogue. And to get permission to name the galleries after him, I had to call his daughter, who's called Lady Leslie Bonham Carter about four years ago when they gave us the go-ahead to start the fundraising for it.

And she was great. And she said, well, he hated the name Montrose. You have to include that. And I said, yes, we have to differentiate it from the business. And then just a few weeks ago, we had the press conference. and I called her up again and ask her if she would come over. And she came, 95 years old, she came over with like 12 Bonham Carter, all extraordinary. And I went to visit her the night before she was staying at the Knickerbocker Club.

Of course, she was staying at the Nicarbocker Club. And she brought this album of her dad and people that have worked at Vogue and Vanity Fair. And she told me about all these legendary parties he used to give at their apartment on Park Avenue and walking to school across Black Avenue to really, because she lived with her father until she was about, I think, 12 years old and extraordinary memory still of what he was like. And sort of having her and the family members there for the press announcement made it so personal and so real.

And I think she was very moved because she said very sweetly, I thought you'd all forgotten about him. And just on the Met, what does Trump? have to do to get back on the invite list? Was you off for good? Anna took a sip of her coffee. Thank you for having me. Final, final, final question.

Will you ever quote retire? Will you ever stop? Well, having worked with Alex and Sai, who said, well, I'll retire when I die. I think I'll always do something, you know, whether it's the amazing, amazing position that lucky enough to have now, I don't know, but I like Alistair, Rory, I like to be busy. I like to help people. I like to use the knowledge that I have over so many decades of working with so many incredible people taking that knowledge and seeing how I can connect and how I can help.

I would just like to continue to be helpful. Well, thank you for giving us time and knowledge today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great day. Thank you. Alison, Robert, on usually, just sort of weird aside, I got a massive migraine 15 minutes through.

So I was seeing her through a fragmented light. Seriously? I don't know it was the reflection of her glasses or something, but I was sort of trying to hold on with my head pounding and my eyes going. Wow, well, you did very well. Funner directions. You did very well. I'm still slightly out of it. Anyway, what was your sense?

What was your name? was your hallucinogenic sense of Anna Winsa? Well, my hallucinogenic sense was, I was completely obsessed with her hands because you don't see much of the rest of her, because her eyes are hidden behind a high glass, and her bob covers so much of her face. Her hands are almost the most human part of her, because they're the hands of a woman her age. The hands are never disguised, and they are, you could see a very competent pair of hands of a woman in her mid-70s, somehow moving at the same time as this sort of almost perfect mannequin above and below. That's really interesting because I actually felt her hands looked younger than her age.

Right. I mean, she is an extraordinary phenomenon, though. You have to give her that. I mean, so when she arrived and I went in to say hello, and she had these two guys who were doing her hair and doing the makeup and what have you. And I said, how many times a day did you do this? She said, whenever I have to. But the answer is at least once a day, isn't it?

Oh, way more, because she'll do it every time she goes into something new, because there is the look. And when she said some people not that interest in fashion, was she having a go at you? I mean, you're not exactly a fashionista, are you? I mean, let's be honest. I'm not a fashionista, no. I understand the power of fashion. Right. Where she's absolutely, I don't know if she was having a go.

She might have been having a go at me. I don't know. I must admit, when I went to interviewer in New York, it's the only time I've ever spent any time. actually asking people what I should wear. Right. You thought I cannot turn up looking like I normally do. And I've got to say, I looked back at the pictures the other night. I wasn't great. So I thought today I just go a very simple

suit, white shirt and what have you. You didn't wear your hoodie, I noticed. No, I wasn't going to wear my hoodie or my Paul Smith zip up, which I'd like to wear. But I think she is an extraordinary woman. And I'd love to know, and by the way, I think it would be amazing if she did write a book and wrote about some of the things that we've been talking about, because I think she does have so much.

it wouldn't just be obviously you can drop as many names as she want but I think she I think the way she operates the way she thinks I think she is a leader she and she has that sense of the ability to say I'm not good at this I'm not good at that but I know what I want I wanted I kept pointing at you and I because my migra and I didn't get it right what I wanted to do is pull you into this conversation because I was interested in whether you actually felt when you were at Downing Street that same sense that you've just got to make decisions quite quickly. Some of them quite intuitive. They could go wrong,

but you've got to keep momentum going. There's one of the books that was written about Anna Winter, there's this description of a meeting where she's taking a meeting, she's looking at the magazine as it's being sort of going through the process, and she's just literally going, yes, no, no, yes, yes,

goodbye. And sort of like, that's it. And I think that, you know, and it's interesting when she walked in today, and It's sort of hard to communicate this to people. We've talked to a lot of well-known political figures, but she does have a kind of aura about her that is a bit like the Queen

in terms of, you know, people sort of... It was interesting walking and people were stepping back. Well, I did notice from going out, so one of our producers said to us, she's arrived, and I put my head out, I immediately realized she hadn't arrived. She was in the building. Everyone was looking normal, right?

And I immediately sensed that had she actually arrived, there would have been this sort of terrified look, which we don't normally get. No, and then they all step back. And actually, she's very, very nice. So when I went into meet her and she was doing the makeup, she said, do you want some? And I said, no, I tend not to.

It's more sort of scarootis gave that. But she, and then she was talking about this visit she'd done to the school and just how nice the kids were. I find that that's the only time I've had, the second long conversation I've ever had with her. And I found, I actually think she's a lot warmer. But I think part of that is she's projecting a sense of us. of how many times did she say it likes to help people, likes to be good, a force for good,

etc. You know, the nuclear winter thing was basically about this sense of, you know, that style of leadership. Yes, no, in out. She made a lot of change everywhere she went, got rid of a lot of people. But I think she's got, I think I do understand. And on the way out, she said, she said to me, what's Peter Kyle like? And I said, oh, he's a good guy. Why?

She said, because I'm inviting into a fashion event so as I can get the government to do more for fashion. She never stops. Yes, interesting. I mean, I think one of the reasons why she'd struggle to write a memoir is that she is very, very careful what she says about people. I mean, notice, even you gave her an open goal on Trump a couple of times. Yeah, but that was a brilliant answer. Taking a sip of coffee.

But nonetheless, the truth of the matter is, compared to any interview we've done, except for probably Bill Gates, I've never seen anybody so reluctant really to be negative and critical. I mean, it's relentless boosterism. And I think the thing she has in common with Gates is power. And it's power that has to be unbelievably conscious that you don't unnecessarily offend people to be funny because you're trying to run a big institution and keep it going. And also, she said, when I said, you know, you're out as a Democrat, she did absolutely. And she was very, very clearly quite so fond of Hillary Clinton, devastated when she lost.

She literally cried. It's one of the rare times she's cried in public in front of all her staff. She did an all-staff meeting and she started crying because Hillary had lost. Clearly thinks that Melania's as tacky as they come and Trump's awful and hates all the gold stuff and all the... But doesn't feel the need to say it because there's nothing in it for her. I guess, though, that he won't be invited back is the truth. It's a fascinating relationship, I think, between Anna Winter and the way that American wealth, power and fashion is changing. Jeff Bezos's wedding to Lauren Sanchez in Venice, boy is not the old Anna Winter.

Tucky, a bit tacky? I would say pretty tacky from the old Diana Winter. And I think the whole Trump set up is pretty tacky. So MAGA, tech bros, it's not her style. But I think she's trying to adapt to it. And we can share a very interesting article for people who subscribe on somebody taking an interesting thing. Is this a change in the world? Has the Anna Winter vision of fashion now been under attack?

from the new money in America. Which is, via Lauren Sanchez, going to be one of the sponsors of the next Metcala. So she's managed to keep them there. She's managed to hold them in against the odds. I think it a battle of fashion or intellect between Lauren Sanchez and Anna Winter. I know who I'm backing.

Final thing. When she talks about, you know, she's about truth and strong journalism and no fake news, it's not quite true. I mean, let me just, I mean, I was referring to the profile of, of Nicole Kibman. This says she'd written by a friend of mine, who I know can write some pretty

funny, snarky praise. She was in fact a war correspondent who I know quite well. When I first talked to Nicole Kibman in late August, we met in a curtained alcove in a blandly grand hotel in Mayfair. Descended from a transatlantic flight, she shimmered in a white silk jacquard sundress and gold ballerina slippers. Her strawberry blonde hair was drawn back into an elegant ponytail, and on one figure flashed an emerald-cut diamond. Spectacular. Spectacular. As big as the writs, Kidman was eloquent and warm, and leavening her more introspective thoughts with a twinkly laugh. By way of introduction, I mentioned that I often wrote about people in war and she leaned forward to Tommy, that when she first took up her role as a UN ambassador in 2006,

she'd been taught, etc., etc., etc., right? Now, if you had been the editor of a newspaper... Suggery. And I'd produced that as a profile. I agree in flattering. I see the headline is fearless. Well, I'll have to read the whole piece. Yes, I have quite right. Quite right. But she, I think, did you often read pieces in American folk? Because I can assure you they're all like that. But it was interesting that she, you know, the Assad, just to remind me.

That was another one. Assad's wife was written in the same style. Listen, literally the same style, Assets wife. Yeah, it was. It was. And it was, I think she, again, she didn't. This is Bashar al-Assad's wife who literally presided over genocide in Syria. And corruption. and all the rest of it. It's described as the queen of the desert.

And I think she, again, she didn't want to go into in detail. But I think that the, look, I can't pretend to be a regular reader of all the articles, as you clearly are, Rory. But I think it's part of journalism. And I think the point she made about the celebratory nature of it. And it was interesting, it was in this context of you talking about optimism. I think there is something about that. It's sort of, you know, the world feels so challenged and difficult.

So actually what magazines have often done is give people a sense of escapism and optimism. And I think that's partly what it is. And I wanted her to say, but I couldn't draw out to say that presumably one of the things she has done as an editor for 40 years is actually say no to articles that are too snarky, too clever by half. Because she will have an instinct, that's more for Vanity Fair, that's more for the New Yorker. That's not what we run in American folk. Yeah, I think she partly made her name by investing in a lot. I don't know about articles, but in these massively expensive shoots, and then saying, no, I don't like the pictures. We're not using it. Well, it's quite often upsetting a lot of people.

If you wanted to be a, I don't want to be a postmodernist, and I'd be interested in which you think, you wanted to take the magazine away, which I'll give you. But it's very, excuse me, just, I want to take the magazine away to give it to somebody who helped to do something. If you wanted to be pretentious about it, there is a very, very interesting relationship between the advertisements and the text itself. The line between what is an ad by a fancy photographer and what is a photograph taken by Vogue. And the way in which they have this codependent relationship. So if you're Balenciaga, you really, really care what Anna Winter thinks. I mean, she, as you say, can make you, break you. Why are you putting an ad in American Vogue?

It's not necessarily actually the number of readers they have anymore. It's because you need to put the ad in and order to get up. At least I put a couple of tough questions to her. You waited until she's left the room before putting the tough stuff. Well, I think that... Where were you with, you know, is Trump coming back on the guest list? I picked up pretty quickly that she wasn't going to provide a deconstruction of the fashion industry or I think. Anyway, she's a hell of a phenomenon, that's for sure.

And it's interesting as well how when I, you know, as you do as well, you get people say, have you got anybody coming up? And it's interesting how women in particular, of any age, of any age, Any generation that you say, are we doing Anna Winter? There's an excitement and a bus. My mother, my sisters are over the moon and so excited. And look, I think she's extraordinary, but I think what makes her extraordinary, it's the decisiveness, it's the sense of a brand.

And knowing who she is, what she is, and what she wants to create. And she is a brand, and she doesn't want to deconstruct it, but she is a brand and she's very conscious of being a brand, and she uses it incredibly powerful. And does it so quietly? The paradoxes you would have thought somebody who was a brand would be much more vain, self-centered, whereas actually she comes across as surprisingly modest and understated. Good. Well, you know, hope your mum enjoyed the interview, Rory.

Thank you very much indeed. Less than the debrief. Thank you again. Bye-bye.