The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 184. President of Ukraine: Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

At a time when the United States is threatening to withdraw from NATO, how can Europe maximise its power to deter Russia's threat? If Vladimir Putin were given the territory Donald Trump offered in his peace plan, what would his next move be? Why does the White House keep misunderstanding Putin’s real war aims? Alastair Campbell is joined by Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President of Ukraine, to discuss all this and more. __________ Search IG.com to find out more and/or Look for IG in your app store. __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Vasco Andrade Videographer: James Clayden Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Exec Producer: Chris Sawyer General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispolitics.com. It's quite a surreal notification to get presidents of Ukraine is inviting you to a schedule Zoom.

Right, so we will start in the minute. Thank you so very much. Thank you. Hello. Hi. Hello, how are you? Good news here. Thanks so much. No, thank you.

Thank you. I'm very good. Well, listen, thank you for everything and thank you for doing this interview now. And if you're ready, I'm ready to start. I'm okay. This episode is brought you by IG. If you're listening to this podcast, the chances are you're someone who thinks seriously about politics, economics and your own financial future. You probably also understand that volatility can also mean opportunity. So rather than waiting for things to settle down, you're wondering how to invest. And that's where IG comes in. been trusted by British investors for over 50 years through every kind of market condition you can think of. IG offers zero commission on your investments, zero account fees, and they were just voted Best Low-Cost ISA at the 2026 Boring Money Awards. If you've been thinking about investing or you want a new investment platform that gives you better value, search

IG.com today and find out about their latest welcome offers for new customers. IG, trade, invest, progress. Your capital is at risk. Other fees may apply. Okay, so President Zelensky, thank you so much for talking to me. And we'll get into what's happening today. But first, I want to go back in time to your great-grandparents, who were among more than a million Ukrainian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation, to your grandfather, who joined the Soviet army in 1942, his three brothers who all perished. And I wonder what impact these stories had on you growing up as you learned to your families. history. I think all the roots and all the stories of families have some important influence

on your life and it's understandable. And of course, I think that the people who experience the war, they are focusing only on very important things. So, of course, the time what I had with my grandfather, of course, had the influence. Yes, because you speak about all the things, but basing on your experience of your life. And yes, it has some influence. But I think that family education and also friends, school, a lot of things which are very important. Education is, you know, one of the very important things which has influence on you, on your view and on your values and how you see and how you feel the world.

and your attitude to everything. Tell me about your own parents. Happily, they're still alive, but it can't be easy for them at the moment, seeing the life that you have to lead and the relentless pressure that you're under. No, I think my mother, of course, is difficult for her to understand,

to hear, to feel, and then it's understandable very much. She's very sensitive. She knows me very well. That's why when she see me, for example, on TV or somewhere, she understands when I'm tired or not, if I'm okay or I have some questions and our problems. And of course, all these challenges. Yes, for her, maybe it's more difficult even for me.

Yes. And for my father, no, he's very supportive. He understands very well. If with my mother, we have communication almost each day, she calls me. Yeah, I'm so sorry I have to call, but sometimes I'm too busy. I'm busy, I forget. Yeah, but she never forgot. She has to call me, I don't know.

If I am not answering, by the way, I have a problem. It's mean that I will have 10, 20 phone call from her. So that's why it's better to answer the first. And when you were growing up, would they ever have thought that you would end up becoming a politician? No, no. Why not? Because my family is, you know, like the family of scientists, because my father is a scientist. And scientists are almost the anti-political, anti-establishment, anti-parties. They never recognize politicians and etc.

So that's why I said immediately, of course not. So the politics is not very important topic in my family. So it was more about, yes, of course, we discussed with my father and mother, we discussed what's going on in the world, but not from the point of politics, from the point of, you know, challenges and from the point of security and the economy and et cetera. So, but no, no politics. Okay. And you did a law degree, but because comedy was really your thing, you then get into this KVN, comedy competition. Were you always very, very funny? As a child, were you funny? Yes, and we have good sense of humor in my family. I always had. My father, he loved to

joke, yes, and a lot of such things. We love to read such books and funny stories and comedies, just to have fun with family and etc. So we are not, the New Rusne, We're not crumpy. Crumpy, new business. Not crumpy. You're a crumpy old man. So it's normal for our. Then I had, I studied in judicial university.

I studied law because I'm in this profession. It was very popular at this very moment when I, when I studied and when I graduated school. And so that's why. That's why. Because my father, he's a scientist, he's about cyber. Mabernatic Mets, it's all about it. So I studied first math with him. But what I understood, that he's clever than me in this in Mesh.

And I said to him, look, I don't want to be the second. That's why I don't want that you always look at me that in math, you know more than me and you will know and understand more when even in 10 and 20 years. I don't want this feeling because I knew, by the way, I knew math very well, but not such well as my father because he is a professor and this is his life. And that's why I said, no. You do so, you do your own thing. Something different, yes.

And I wanted to go to study in some diplomacy in the university, in the capital, but it was, I mean, impossible because it was very, we didn't have enough for this budget because you need some money for this to live somewhere and etc so i'm from another city not from the capital that's why it was difficult and but the most understandable was to study in the university to study the law and to go to this profession and very everybody in the world pretty much now knows that you played a teacher who became president but you were very much more than a comedian You were a kind of entertainment entrepreneur. At one point, you were a TV executive,

you were inventing different formats and so forth. Did you imagine that was going to be your life forever? Or was there always a part of you thinking maybe politics? First of all, I loved my profession, what I had before the politics. I was the owner or one of the owners of a big production company, maybe one of the biggest. And of course, I loved this profession.

It was about creative things. I was the CEO of this company, not only one of the owners, I was the CEO of the company. And then I loved TV and movie from the point of producing, from the point of marketing and ideas. So I loved to create the ideas. It was like a business idea and to do it from the very beginning to the end. It's like, you know, that there are positive producers and negative. I think positive producers who create the idea and then make the product.

Negative producers, they only can find some money. At the end of the process, during the editing, they will say, it's not good, it's something bad, and it's a result. I don't very respect such people because I think that the best producer find a way how to choose the great idea or to create it by himself or by herself. And you also, you met your wife, Alina, in that period. She was a comedy writer. And I'm just wondering, before we get on to the really serious stuff, everything in your life right now must feel incredibly serious and stressful. Are you still able to have a good time with her and to have a laugh

and actually just to joke about things? Or do you just feel weighed down by the pressure of what you're doing? By the way, my wife, before she became my wife, she was a scriptwriter. And I also love this profession and I also was a scribe writer some years. But now I don't have time, of course. Now I'm the president of the country which is in war. I'm focusing on one thing on Ukraine and this is my priority. If you are focusing and try to manage different things, you will not be successful in one.

So that's why I can understand what is the, most important for today, for me and for Ukraine. I work for Ukraine, on Ukraine, but you sometimes not to forget that you can't be very serious with everything, otherwise you will become crazy. Because it's just about crazy people who don't have sense of humor. It's crazy people. By the way, it's not only my opinion. I know a lot of soldiers, officers and doctors who are managing and save lives. But you can't be very serious each moment. Yes, you have to be professional and be very serious with your profession.

But there are some things on which you can't look very seriously. Otherwise, you will shift your focus from really serious things. Now, 2018, you announced that you're running for office. 2019 you win a runoff against Poroshenko with 73%. And at that point, Vladimir Putin has already annexed Crimea. He's begun his campaign. Did you feel at the time that he might one day go for a full invasion? And did you discuss with your friends and your family what that might mean for you,

the prospect of being the war leader that you've now become? Or did you think it would never happen? And of course, I couldn't estimate about full-scale work. It's unbelievably how it can be. But really, it was a very bad surprise when they occupied it, Crimea. You have borders with Russia, you have long history, a part of USSR history, and the and of course, you can't even imagine that will be someday. it will be the aggression and it will be a full-scale war and not only temporary occupation,

the really goal of Russians to occupy all your country to destroy Ukraine. I didn't know about it, of course. And also famously, when the invasion happened, you said to President Biden and President Erdogan, I don't need a ride, I need ammunition. That's the moment where I think people sense you were a leader of, of just exceptional leadership and courage. But was there a moment when you felt real personal fear at the scale of what you were about to be confronted with?

I'm not, I mean, this, I'm a life, of course, and we have all these emotions, what all the people have, of course. When you hear about children, about your country, about your family, it's very understandable. But for me, the most important is to push away any kind of emotions and to focus on the steps. That's what I can do, and I could do it before this profession. Yes, in the difficult moments, I can put myself together.

So I had to do it, and that's why I saw a lot of people around who've been in a big stress and some chaos and et cetera, but I think that I could manage what to do. And of course, I had phone calls, you know, each five, ten minutes. During the first days of the war, yes, it was, I mean, very difficult. And I had phone calls from all there, from the generals of my country, just the government, which being in the western part, I pushed and moved it to the western part of Ukraine because I saw that if we will be occupied totally, we need to manage how to,

manage the country, yeah, and that's why I decided I made some steps with banking system. I can't share with you where I moved them, but I moved them. Yes, and also I moved the government. I had no big team in the Kyiv. We had to stay here. And of course, leaders came to me that they said that in such, and not only them, also security and et cetera, and they all might, I mean this own security. all said that in such circumstances, we need to move you to some security places somewhere. And leaders of the world, including United States, they wanted to move me somewhere to other country and to help me with this and just to save me because they knew that Putin wants that at this moment it was understandable that the Russians wanted to occupy Kiev. And of course,

they wanted to do something with me. Now it's understandable. Now it's not so difficult to look back and to understand what is the idea, how to occupy it. And of course, the destabilization with the people, when they don't have the leader, when they don't have the president, and you can't join everybody. I made a decision without, it was not something emotional, et cetera. So, again, God bless the education helped me. I understand what to do, and I understood what Russians wanted, and I knew what I had to do,

like the president of the country. And if I can go back to 1994 in the Budapest agreement, where the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, agreed that if Ukraine gave its nuclear weapons to Russia, you'd get guarantees of sovereignty and border security. That kind of went with Crimea, but it was now, with the invasion, it was utterly shableness. Did your country feel betrayed at that point? For today, looking what's going on in the world, not only in Ukraine, in the Middle East, you understand that the biggest and the strongest security guarantees is you, your country,

your people. When you want to exchange something, you can't exchange some military equipment, doesn't matter, by the way. better, by the way, nuclear in this case, in your example, or are they, I don't know, air defense and etc. or jets, sky fleet and etc. It doesn't mean it's meant that you have to exchange you these on similar things. For example, it's very expensive to hold these jets or the whole big army. You exchange it to the place in NATO, that this NATO fleet will defend, you in a very dangerous moment if somebody will come to occupy you or something like this. The same with nuclear weapon.

If you decided to change nuclear weapon, the price had to be fair. And I think the NATO is the smallest price, smallest what Ukraine, what the leaders of Ukraine and the Ministry of Defense, the president, government, the parliament, what they had to to get instead of nuclear weapon. What we've got, we've got nothing. So it's a not fair game, and it's a big mistake in any way. By the way, it's not only Ukrainian mistake. I don't want, you know, to push only these signals to our past.

And they said, it's also about other security guarantors who are in this Budapest memo. And it's nuclear countries. If they said that you will not have nuclear weapon, they have to give you umbrella of security, maybe nuclear umbrella because you are nuclear countries and other things. And that's why it was lies. Of course, it was lies. Without, they've got our nuclear weapon. They moved it, by the way, mostly to the Russian.

So not only this, I know how strategic aviation was destroyed of Ukraine totally. the biggest jets with strategic aviation. So they are very strong. By the way, such strategic jets, Russia used against us during these full-scale war. So a lot of different mistakes. You did have direct dealings with Vladimir Putin, first by phone, then you had face-to-face talks with them during the so-called Normandy talks when they resumed. I understand how you see him today. How did you see him then?

I tried to find a way of negotiations. What I wanted, just when I became the president, I'm the young president who understood that we have to finish with this because we need to increase economy, GDP for Ukraine. And to do this, we need investment, we need free economy, we need the way to EU and et cetera. Something what will open for us markets.

And of course, Russia's influence the fact that they temporary occupied at us, some territories, of course, and they also blocked for us some markets. It was understandable that we need to find a way of stabilizing the situation. That's why we needed to make some format of negotiations, because when I came, we had already Minsk agreement. We had the table for meetings and technical groups and et cetera. And we had thousands. No, maybe not thousands, but hundreds of such technical meetings before me and then after. And I wanted to speak with him. And I wanted very much to end this Minsk agreement.

Because for me, it was like, you know, it's such formal. of destabilizing, not full-scale war, but not peace time. And this is a signal to all the investors. So you can't develop your country. And was your sense of him today and his psychology and what you actually think he's trying to achieve right now? I understand 100% what he wants today. I think he made historical mistake with a full-scale war.

And of course, occupation was also his mistake. But it was, you know, the moment of the life when you can find, at least try to find some diplomatic way to de-escalate. And he moved to this operation, which is really became the war, moved to operation. He said about three, four days, but we know what was at the end. So this is a full-scale war. And he really thought his estimation war that he can occupy us, that leaders will take me out or Russians will kill me. It doesn't matter. I mean, how to move me out from the capital.

Yes. And they understood that the Ukrainian people will not join. And they will move to the parliament because they had in parliament their party, which was financed by Russia. and the party was the second, by the way, it was big party. They had the plan of operation of strategy. Hi, everybody, it's Dominic Samarach here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics when Rory was away,

and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, appeared with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms

with all of these issues and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s.

So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975,

a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode.

And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Our Security Service produced a report this week that said on the front line, you're doing better than you have for almost a year. And yet the language is all about, you know, he's still going and he keeps going. So what do you think he is trying to achieve now? I think for today he understood that he can't. occupied us totally. He recognized it for himself and for partners. I'm sure. Sometimes it's different to you. Sometimes he shares with partners not the things what he's thinking about really.

Yes, but he recognizes that he can't occupy us now. The second point is understandable that he has so many losses for today. And on the front, he doesn't have well-trained people. Enough number of well-trained soldiers in the offices to destroy us. And he needs time for this. And I think that his goal is to find a way out with a victory. That's why he's trying to withdraw us from Donbass, by diplomacy, by the way, by the Americans' dialogue with us that we have by ourselves withdraw from Dunbath. Because for him it's losses. Hundreds of thousands, by the way.

We see that he can occupy Dunbass in some years if he will be able. I mean, not he can or not. If he will be able to do it, he needs more people, more money, and losses will be from 300,000 to one million. It depends how many years he will need. additional losses. So this is a big price even for Putin. And that's why he wants to find such way of ending the war. But for him, that will be the pause. In the way, he will withdraw from ourselves, by ourselves, from Dumbos. Of course, he understands that our people, our country

will be divided because to withdraw by ourselves, you know, partially people will be against it. He understands that our unity can be divided. And he will look. If the unity and society will be divided, he will continue very quickly to make something like the Blitz Creek and something like this to occupy us. If not, he will need pause, pause for well-trained people for him, for training missions, for increasing the production,

and for blocking us economically, lifting sanctions. from his energy sector and etc. Find a way to deal with Europe because he's fire or something like this can help him also. So it's not only our wish. So you said there that he's doing it through the Americans and diplomacy.

But surely, do the Americans not understand that for you to give up Donets, parts of Dombas is impossible because of the soldiers you lost. It's impossible for the people who live there. it's impossible because of the referendum that you would have to have, which you would lose if you put it there. And it would probably cause some kind of civil war, which presumably he would quite enjoy. So why are the Americans even pushing in that direction when it's, they both understand it's literally impossible for you?

Because I'm sure that they had a lot of different conversations with Putin and his team. And it's a pity, but we have to recognize that partially Americans are, feeling that it's nothing for us. It's not such a big price for the peace to go out from our territories. And they don't want to recognize that Putin will lie to them and that he can continue the occupation even after such steps. They are sure. Americans are sure that if we will withdraw, Putin will put it, that they can trust Putin.

I think it is the biggest problem that we don't trust Putin. and I think that they trust him. But even the American people, if you look at opinion, I saw an opinion poll two weeks ago, you were the most popular world leader in the United States, and Putin was second bottom only to Kim Jong-un. So the people don't trust him. Why do Whitkoff and Kushner and Trump

trust somebody who's shown himself to be so untrustworthy? Too much time together, first. The second point that really they made, I think, in Alaska, some negotiations, they spoke about it, and I think that Putin was very open, for him it was great success, that Americans involved him and invited him. But American people are on our side, and this is great. This is what helps us a lot. And this is big support. When I had a meeting with a negotiation group in Berlin, firstly, and I began to speak with them, not on the groups to groups, our negotiation group.

I wanted to speak with them, to understand them. And I think that they understood me that not ever since such simple. Yes, and they contrast Putin. And they told me that really it was very, very important, very useful. We began to speak to each other before I didn't have such possibility because Vietko went only to Moscow and I didn't have communications with him. But sometimes our partner is saying that one element, and it will bring them quick, successful victory, like ceasefire. Yeah, but you know, we need ceasefire for the long period of time, not just for the week, for the week of celebration, and then again, continuation of this tragedy.

But I know what Putin's want. And he knows that I understands him. And he knows also that I understand that they are not so strong at the battlefield. And I think that he knows that only me understand. And that's why they share with Americans a lot of, you know, I mean, there's no truth. Yeah, blah, blah, and et cetera. So this is where we are. And I said very openly to our American friends,

I'm thankful that they really want, they really want to end this war. It's true. And I said to them, look, if you want to try to negotiate any kind of these territorial challenges, you need to organize and to push Putin to a trilateral meeting on the level of leaders. He doesn't want because this is the answer. I said, I will give you some examples where you will find the answer. if he really wants to end the war or not. First, try to organize meeting on the level of leaders speak about territories.

He didn't want. First, second, if he doesn't want after ceasefire to occupy us, propose him to put American soldiers with Europeans on the contact line. He said to them, no, any kind of soldiers. So it means that he will go forward. So he wants to go follow. The third point, he has about 20, I don't know, 17, 18 or 20 million millions of square kilometers, he's 30, of Russia. And when he speaks with Americans, he said, look, what is the problem?

It's about 6,000 square kilometers. So can you imagine, really, that the person which has dozens of millions of square kilometers and 70% of these square kilometers are without life, any infrastructure do really trust that he needs 5.8,000 square kilometers, that this is the goal? No, this is not the goal. The goal is other things. It's like strategic place.

So, yes, it's true. It's not only geopoliticals, from the format of the war. He will have these industrial cities, and after this industrial cities where we have fortification defending lines to the field, open field, and straight roads to our regional capitals like Nipro, Harkiv and etc. So it's understandable for what he wants it. It's very hard watching, living in the UK as I do and doing this podcast every week and covering, talking about Ukraine a lot.

It's very hard not to think that the Trump administration is basically on his side. We saw the meeting where J.D. Vance started an ambush with you. He criticizes you. He blames you. Putin is a dictator. He's broken international law. He started the war. And yet he never criticise him.

And as we speak, you and I are speaking now at a time when J.D. Vance is on the way to Hungary to interfere directly in an election in support of Victor Orban, who's done more than any other European leader to undermine you support Putin. So do you just have to suck that up and grin and bear it because you still need the Americans? And how hard is that? It's difficult.

I mean, sometimes you can't feel what's going on here in Europe. The same in Europe, we can't feel everything what's going on, for example, in the Middle East. And I'm not sure that now, J.D., with all respect, etc but I'm not even he's coming to Budapest I'm not I'm not sure that it's helpful you know between us between us yes maybe they are friends yes between us we have many billions of listeners between all of us no I'm I mean that this is the situation in Europe yeah that I always all my message being about the unity between Europe and the United States

because I think that it doesn't matter. It's NATO or another name. The question is the most strong union in the world, security union, it's Europe and the United States, with all respect to other countries and continents. And today, we see dividing of this. This is not good. So for today, United States support for Hungarians. I'm not sure that it's support.

I'm not on the side of this guy from Hungary. It's understandable why, but I don't want to be involved today, elections. People by themselves, they will decide. That's why I said that I'm not sure that today, the team of the United States, that they really understand all the details what Russia wants. You know, I had the document, for example, Russians shared with Iranian regime, energy objects and also military, but mostly energy objects on the territory of Middle East countries and the Gulf, and also Israel, and also a lot of different countries. So they shared

with them, they used satellites, made images they shared with Iranians. And also American bases are there. And I shared this information, even publicly I shared. But did we hear the reaction of the United States to Russia, that they have to stop it? And I, and I, That's why I think this is the problem that they trust Putin, and it's a pity. It's a pity. But you've mentioned NATO a couple of times, and Trump is currently saying that he thinks NATO is a bit of a busted flush. Europe is very good with the words of support, but is that being matched by reality? And can they fill a gap that the Americans might leave in your defenses?

This is a difficult question. As I said, a little bit taller, that I really think that the union between you, United States and Europe is very important. And if the United States really thinks about how to withdraw from the NATO, what we heard from officials, even officials publicly that they think about it, all the security in Europe will based only on EU. So we want, for example, you will understand me, we want to be a part of the EU and we will be, I'm sure. But I think that for today, EU is in such a situation when they need some countries. UK?

UK, Ukraine, Turkey, Norway. There are different questions to each of these countries, according to the laws, internal questions, and etc. But there are four strong countries which are part of Europe, and these countries, as between us, between us, UK, Ukraine and Turkey, this is the army which will be stronger than the army of Russia. That is the answer. Without Ukraine and Turkey, Europe will not have similar army that Russia has. With Ukraine, Turkey, Norway and UK, you will control security on the seas, not one sea.

This is the answer. And that's why these four countries, EU also has to find away, friendship, strategic, partner way, how to involve these four countries and be the strongest union of economy and security. It's not about offensive. No, no, no. I'm speaking about defending, only defending, security in the sea, security in the sky, and the biggest land forces. I was in Kiev for the fourth anniversary, and that's when I I saw you there at the ceremony in the Maidan, and I was with the enlargement commissioner, Marta Koss for the fourth anniversary, and I went to quite a long meetings. We kept hearing that, yes, got to get into the European Union, but several things we heard.

First was, there is still a worry about corruption, there is still a worry about the pace of reform, but also from your side, a worry about whether France and Germany, in particular, want any enlargement of the European Union at the moment. What's your sense of all that? We have to do our reforms not only for EU or somebody. We need it for ourselves. We can do as much as possible. We can't do more during the war.

We do a lot. I think we do more than we can. I think that we need to survive. Yesterday I was in Syria, and I'm so happy that they have life. I saw a lot of children. and they saw our flags, Ukrainian flags, and they upload, by the way. So this is their attitude, and they understand that they are strong and et cetera, but now the economy is not so strong.

Yes, of course, they are on the way. They are on the way. But when the war began in Ukraine, it's understandable that Russia moved all their forces from Africa, from Syria, from a lot of different countries, they moved to Ukraine, and Ukraine killed all their Wagner group and et cetera. And they understand that they are strong, but Ukraine made them a lot, I think so. Yes.

And we see that what does it mean when Russia, when the Russians and Iranians, they destroyed a lot of things in Syria, they need years and years to, you know, to renovate everything. and we will need years. And now Europe doesn't feel it. God bless, will not.

What does it mean? What is it forced? I think with reforms, it's very important, with different laws, it's very important. We will make decision. But security is number one and only in unity. Because when Russia has the decision to have two million army for these, years and before 20th, so did they have army 2.5 million

Europe has to think first of all about security and how to hold the life which they like the level of this life how to hold this and how to save their

history and their independence they all have to think about it. Focusing what we spoke earlier, in such difficult moment, you have to focus on one thing. Very important to make everything with your security. Russia has to be afraid of the unity of these countries. When you will do this, all the people in your continent, they will be happy and then make other steps.

And I think when you want to find a way about Ukraine's place in EU or what to do with, for example, UK, they've been in EU, then they are not in EU. And again, with Turkey, they're afraid because a lot of, I don't know, vegetables or big agriculture. It's understandable about markets. But you will manage all this. You will manage if you have great economy.

You have to save your country and then economy. First of all, security. Second is economy, not opposite. And you mentioned, and we've run over time, I know, but can I just ask you about you mentioned that you'd been in the Middle East? And I thought that was a really interesting strategic move. You've been to the Gulf. As you say, you were in Syria yesterday.

You have a lot of contact with that region now. Can we read into that a set of new partnerships that you think are going to help you in the war? Is this about you giving them the technology that they need to fight Iranian drones since the war in Iran? Or is there something longer term that you can plan that actually helps you, yeah, longer term for Ukraine's forward strategy? In our strategy, it's long-term relations.

How not only defend and destroy Iranian drones, It's not about Iranians or Russian, it doesn't matter. It's about system what do we have. The system is security in the sky and also how to save energy, how to think about infrastructure, how to save it, water supplies and etc. How to build fortifications. It's not simple things. It's all in the system.

They understood Middle East. I was there some years ago. I wanted very much to find a way how to do. go together. We needed very much anti-ballistic and we needed money. We didn't have enough fundings for ourselves. And I tried. But only when war came to you, to your country, you are ready to make progress. And that's why. And I think all our experience about this system, which we will provide co-production and this system to Middle East countries, we will be able to do this. And to do it together, they will be ready also to be very open.

Are you worried that the war in Iran is not just taking attention away from Ukraine, but taking defenses away from Ukraine as well? Of course. Of course. The focus is on the Middle East now of the United States. Then it's meant that in any way for the United States, for today, its priority. And of course, it can take, if the war will be long, I don't know, Gagblad they will make some ceasefire steps and et cetera, I don't know.

But I know one thing that long war, it's using a lot of different weapon what we need, anti-ballistic missiles, patriot missiles, what we need very much. And of course, they can move it to the Middle East and we will have deficit. Even before these were a war, we had deficit with these components, but with the war, of course. Yes. So this is the problem then. They lifted sanctions from energy sector, partially from Russian energy sector. And if Russia had big deficit about 100 billion for 2026, it was our estimation.

For now, they have now additional money. They have each day. because the sanctions have been lifted from Russian oil. So this is also the problem. Yes, but the system, what we proposed, and they understood Middle East countries, and they were happy with what we shared with them, our experience, how to help their people, civilians, of course, to defend.

I think this is what we need to do now in our union in Europe, to do, not to wait, not to wait when it will be late. why I don't trust them that they will just stop the war in Ukraine they really can stop this war in Ukraine but it doesn't mean that they will stop because they can go on other direction where the situation will be more simple for them most small countries not well prepared for the war

it's understandable why because they didn't have occupation so that's why they can move there because it's very difficult when you increased the production when a lot of your business partners are all military sector in Russia, when they make today a lot of money, that's why it's very difficult to stop such, you know, machine. So that's why you need to go somewhere to do something, not to decrease all these productions and military productions and et cetera.

So a lot of different business, Russian business, make money on this war now. Yeah, for sure. Well, listen, it's been fantastic to talk to you. My dream for the world is that Ukraine, the UK and Canada all enter the European Union on the same day. But maybe you can add that one. We're happy with Canada. Absolutely. Canada is great partner.

Yeah, for sure. Mark is great prime minister, really. Yeah. If I can just ask one final question. I was deeply moved at the Maidan by the flags and the pictures of all the fallen shoulders that went on and on and on. When you're the leader in a war like this, how do you avoid becoming so used to being told of the deaths of soldiers that you actually cease to feel the impact? Do you have to harden yourself? Or can you always feel the impact of that?

And I guess that's a way of asking as well. We hear a lot about Ukrainian resilience. But how do you manage your own resilience and mental health? Yeah. First of all, you can't control the. this pain and you can't forget it. I give orders to not only to soldiers' officers, but also one of the difficulties for me

when I give it to mothers or fathers and to husbands, wives with children on their heads, when I give the orders for their relatives, for their children who have been killed by Russians. And I do it personally. You mean the medals? When I give them, I always do it. I'm trying to do it personally, not to forget about these people and to feel.

Because all these people, mothers and father, they always say something. And I say they say something. Sometimes they are very strong but cry. and sometimes they need just hinks. And that's why I feel all this, all these losses. And I have to feel. And I think that the president has to feel it. He has to look to the eyes of these people

who gave their relatives their children, the lives of their children. They gave it. And that's why we live. only this reason. That's why we live because somebody gave his own life for this. And what about you and your...

How do you look after yourself? No, for me, it's, you know, on the attacks, we feel like the attacks. And, I mean, there's when there are losses, it's a big pain. But psychologically, I think that we all in distress, in any way.

When we look at our children, we see how it's, you know, what the questions they have, that they are not, I mean, they're not happy. Children have to be happy. They are not children. They are adults, as I said about it.

Once I see, when I look to the eyes of my 13 years, I see that it's the eyes of adults, not about children. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for everything you do. I don't know how you do it. And now you keep smiling. We love our country and our life. And that's why we have to, you know, not to forget all the feelings of the life. Yes, because, I mean, we pay big, big price for this. It's understandable. Yeah. But not forget that we are people. we are not you know we are not robots robots yeah we're people with with pluses and

minuses thank you so much thank you and thank you your team as well they've been great thank you thank you take care thank you so much bye bye