The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 185. Can Labour Win Back Scotland? (Anas Sarwar)

Episode Date: April 19, 2026

Does the Leader of Scottish Labour regret calling for Keir Starmer to resign over his appointment of Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador? In the upcoming election, would he consider putting Scottish Labour into a coalition with the Reform Party to defeat the SNP? How does he plan to tackle the rise of Islamophobia and the politics of despair that are increasingly gripping Scotland and the UK? Rory and Alastair are joined by Anas Sarwar, Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, to discuss all these questions and more. __________ Search IG.com to find out more and/or Look for IG in your app store. __________ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [e-mail] __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Exec Producer: Chris Sawyer General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispoletics.com. You did call for the Prime Minister Kiyosama to resign, right? I mean, that's a big deal for a Labour leader in Scotland.

I was making it abundantly clear that my first priority and my first loyalty is to my country, Scotland. And frankly, I don't really care what people in Westminster is think. I only care about people in Scotland think. You must care who the Prime Minister is. Look, I'm not doing it to run against a UK Labour Government. I'm running against a Scottish SMP government. Let's be honest.

Are we spending every penny of public money well? We're not. We will demonstrate to the rest of the UK how you can win in the politics of hope and unity, not feed off the politics of despair. I guess you're very politely skirting around one of the massive things. I'm happy not to be polite, Rooney, and don't let me skirt.

Cut to the chase. I'm happy to cut to the chase. This episode is brought you by IG. If you're listening to this podcast, the chances are you're someone who thinks seriously about politics, economics and your own financial future. You probably also understand that volatility can also mean opportunity. So rather than waiting for things to settle down, you're wondering how to invest. And that's where IG comes in. They've been trusted by British investors for over 50 years through every kind of market condition you can think of. IG offers zero commission on your investments, zero account fees, and they were just voted, best low-cost,

at the 26 Boring Money Awards. If you've been thinking about investing or you want a new investment platform that gives you better value, search IG.com today and find out about their latest welcome offers for new customers. IG, trade, invest, progress. Your capital is at risk. Other fees may apply. Welcome to the rest of this politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Aleister Campbell. And we are with Anas Sawa. Anas Sawa is a second generation, Pakistani Scott. He is a second-generation Labour member of Parliament who followed his dad, Mohammed, into the Westminster Parliament before losing his seat in 2015 after just one term. A year after that, he became a member of the Scottish Parliament and five years after that he became leader of Scottish Labour.

And in Scottish elections on May the 7th, so 30 or days away, he hopes to become Scotland's First Minister after 19 years of an SNP. government. Now, that prospect looked very likely after the last UK general election when Scotland played its part in the Labour landslide since when SNP fortunes seem to have recovered, and Labour's fortunes have declined, sufficient for Anas to call for none other than Keir Stama to resign as Prime Minister. We'll get into all of that. But I think we'd like to start with the backstory, don't we, Rory? And Anas does have quite a good backstory. You'd Definitely do, Anas. Let's start with your father, who I remember, and of course I remember you coming into Parliament in 2010. Tell us a little bit about your father and mother and a little bit about your father's political career, which was quite unusual in many ways. Yeah, look, I mean, I had a really different upbringing in the sense of I was being brought up in a household where my dad, when I was in my really early years, trying to set up and doing it really well, successful family business, successful wholesale business.

and then wanting to become a councillor in the city of Glasgow and then obviously wanting to become Britain's first Muslim member of parliament and while lots of people, it's interesting you mention about both my mum and my dad it's really interesting because lots of people think that automatically somehow maybe I get my politics from my dad but in actual fact I always say that the best politician in our family and the person that's probably got the most values based in terms of that politics is probably my mum and she's probably a much better politician than I or my father would ever be.

But just think about upbringing a house full of love, even if perhaps not expressed by the old man, always motivated, always being driven particularly by mum, but also posed its challenges in terms of being brought by a political household and my dad trying to be Britain's first Muslim member of parliament. And in a weird way, because he was a politician, and because of many of the dark things that we had to experience because either he wanted to be a politician or after he became an elected member in the House of Commons,

it really put me off politics. I hated the idea of being an elected member. So I was a member of Labor Party. I love being a member of Labor Party. I love being involved in campaigns. But the idea of being an elected member honestly repulsed me. And it's one of the reasons why I went to study to be a dentist and worked in the NHS as a dentist

and it's one of the reasons why my dad and I fell out at one point because he was very keen for me to be a politician I was desperate not to be a politician because of some of the things we experienced growing up. He won? Absolutely. It's really funny because he makes a point,

even to this day, of reminding me that every day he was a member of parliament was every day of the Labour Party being in government and every day of me being in politics is every day of Labor being in opposition when I was in Westminster or an opposition when I'm in the Scottish Parliament.

So I need to bring it. break that duck in the election. Well, you do. And if I had written down, your dad, because he came in in 1997 as part of the first new Labor landslide. Yeah, he totally credits himself for Labor's landslides. Not Tony Blair or Alasar Campbell.

And then he went out in 2010. So what happened to get you from a place where you had absolutely zero interest in being a politician to then actually following him into Parliament in the same seat? I suppose I should first of all explain why I was repulsed by the idea of being an elected member.

So I was of course really proud that he was standing for politics. I was really proud that he was able to be Britain's first Muslim member of parliament. But, you know, my earliest political memory is when I was about 12 years old, leaving to go to school, and there was a strange-looking envelope on our doorstep. And being a really curious young boy, picked up this envelope, made the mistake of opening it up. And there was a mocked-up picture of my mum tied to a chair with two guns pointed to her head and in cut out letters from the newspapers it said bang bang that's all it takes and it was a message from combat 18 a far right organization at the time who were dead against the idea of electing britain's first Muslim

member of parliament and obviously shook me and shook our family and the experience of coming home from school having to go to the police station give my fingerprints because obviously I touched this letter and they had to exclude my fingerprints from it and that made me think this is not a normal situation I would want my kids to grow up in so the idea of being in politics really really repulsed me and then when I started off as an NHS dentist in Paisley I saw firsthand the impact that not just your oral health impacts on someone's outcomes but I lost count of the number of 17 year olds 18 year olds 19 year olds that I was having to do full dental clearances. So literally

pulling out all their teeth and replacing it with full acrylic dentures. And I got to see first hand the direct impact of poverty, of inequality, of addiction, of family background, a lack of access to skills and good employment and the impact that then has on health.

And it gave me a hunger and a passion to want to do public service properly. And then one of my best pals who was also a counsellor in Renfisher at the time came to see me and asked if I had a dinner with him one night after I'd finished my clinic in Paisley and we went to a local restaurant in Paisley

and he was like you know you'll know this from lots of Labour Party conversations Alistair this was in the run up to the 2007 Scottish Parliament election he said to me you know we don't really have a diverse group of candidates and so you'd be really doing us a favour if we can add your name to a

candidate as a paper candidate so we can talk about having diverse candidates and I was like okay where do you want me to stand and he goes will you be the candidate? candidate in Selkirk and Roxburgh. I had no idea where he was talking about. And I was like, listen, I am not going to be the candidate in Selkirk and Roxburgh. But if you want me to make up the numbers on a regional list somewhere, I'll do it. So I agreed to stand on the Glasgow list. I got involved in the campaign really heavily to try and get high up on the list. And I ended up coming top of the Glasgow list. And actually combined with what I was seeing in Paisley and getting the bug of going through that first election campaign, I think that kind of sparked that interesting. to be in front lane politics. I just want to come back to this horrible message, this threatening,

I mean, kind of illegal bullying that you were experiencing there. And actually this morning, I've just been in a fight with John Cleese on Twitter, who's just put out a message saying Muslims are people who follow a holy book that says that anyone they don't like should be killed. I then found myself in a world of hundreds of people, including Tommy Robinson and others, weighing in. And they seem to be trying to sell a line that Islam is a kind of inherently evil religion and that they claim not to be racist. They claim to just have a particular problem with a theology. But they're trying to apply that theology to nearly two billion people around the world.

I just wanted, how do you process this? How do you deal with this? How do you argue against it? How do you make the case? Why is this happening? What's going on? It's a really good question, really, because I think the way I think about lots of these things

is less what it means for an individual faith. But I think being a dad of three boys, I think about a lot in the frame of fatherhood and a sense of identity and belonging for them and obviously for me in the Scottish context. And as soon as you mentioned this individual that's said these comments to you, like in the Hamilton-Larkal

Stonehouse by-election, we had a what is now, sadly, a mainstream political party. We had Reform spend tens of thousands of pounds on a Facebook advert claiming that I would prioritize Pakistan rather than prioritise Scotland. And even today, one of Reforms candidates has said that they're open to the idea of repeating that ad in this election campaign. There's another candidate for reform that says that all Muslims in Scotland should be deported. So I think about obviously what it means for me as a politician, but actually I think about what does it mean for my kids. Are they suggesting that my sons who are third generation Scots,

born and brought up here, have no, apart from their skin color and where their grandparents were born, have no real affinity or identity with Pakistan. They are Scots, they are Brits, they're nothing else, and they won't view themselves as anywhere else. Why is their identity being questioned? Why is their belonging being questioned?

And this weaponization of faith and trying to create a homogenous block, whether it be automatically every Muslim must think the same or every Jewish person must think the same or every evangelical Christian must think the same, that's not how life is and that's not how humans are. And for me, faith has always been something that brings people together and unites people rather than finds difference with people. And I just think there's too many people that want to use it as a way to weaponize for their own either warped ideology or a way to do politics, which is about division. And it does seem to me growing.

I mean, you're reminding us that it's been around a long time because you were experiencing this when you were 11 years old. But it seems to be so active now. I mean, if you look at the AFD in Germany, if you look at some of the people around Tommy Robinson, they are, I think, trying to specifically, I mean, you've mentioned that these comments can be made about a lot of religions, and you're right, but there seems to be a real attempt to target Muslims. and to portray Islam in this very essentialist way.

You've got, as you say, people in Scotland talking about deporting. You've got people in Germany saying that there's going to be remigration. What's causing this? And how does one address this and deal with this and argue against it? I mean, is there a way of trying to make calmly the case against these people and change their minds or explain what's going on? So I think it definitely feels like it's on the right. and I often question whether that's because we're online and because there's these voices and amplification

that didn't exist before. Is it because it's more prevalent now or it's easier to say now or it's more open now? I never truly set upon one on that. Maybe it was always underlying, but those people didn't have a voice now. They've got a platform. They've got a voice or maybe it is on the rise now.

But I think one thing is certainly clear is there are people now. who are willing to use it and weaponize it for political purposes. So the concept of fear and blame is there are lots of people that feel a deep frustration about what's happening in their lives, legitimately. And there's lots of people that think

government doesn't work for them, things are broken, this is as good as it gets, our country's going backwards, nothing works, nothing can ever work, so we need to smash the system. And then they have a layer on top of that of, whether it's figures who are looking for,

attention or followers or to be voices online or whether it's even politicians or looking to get power who think how do we weaponise those problems and find a group of people to point at and say we wouldn't have these problems if it wasn't for them over there. And that fear blame us versus them culture I think is probably the single biggest political divide in the UK and probably globally now for this generation of politicians. and I actually feel a bit of a personal responsible to how we fight back against that because the answer to that is do you do in us versus them politics

and think we create a different version of us versus them or do we create some kind of all of us to confront it and that I think is what we have to do how do we take on the genuine despair the genuine mistrust that people have and give them solutions and pull our country together in the process and tell a story, a positive story in the process that I think is the single biggest challenge facing

Scottish, UK and global politics right now. But one could argue the biggest single driver of it is Donald Trump. He's the President of the United States of America. He's got Scottish blood through his mother. And he has an absolute loathing of Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, way beyond any sense of Sadiq's actual real power as the mayor of London, which is clearly in my mind driven by the fact that he doesn't like the color of his skin and he may or may not like his religion.

are you worried if you become First Minister that you because he probably doesn't know that much about you are you worried that you then become the new Sadiq Khan and what do you then do about that because I think we pander to this guy way too much So there's a couple things on that One is Sadiq Khan is a proud Londoner Yes, a Liverpool football fan

but still a proud Londoner and someone that wants to deliver for every community in London rather than just be the voice for one community in London but there is an attempt to other him very, very often. But I think he's done quite a good job of looking like and sounding like the voice of London. And for me, there'll be lots of attempts to other me to claim I'm not Scottish enough

or I'm not on the side of Scotland. For me, I always think about just say what I believe, do what's right by Scotland and always argue what's right by Scotland and not worry about what comes our way if I am successful in this election and that is definitely our intention and our goal. The one thing I'd push back on

is I think it's too easy an analysis to say it's all Donald Trump's fault. No, it's not all him, but he does drive a lot of this. So I would agree that there is a driving off it from individuals, Donald Trump being one of them, but there's an underlying sentiment, fear and failure that then is weaponized by politicians like Donald Trump in order to try and get the outcome they want. How do we address that underlying and find a different way of challenging and telling a story that confronts that kind of politics. I think is the big, big challenge

for this generation. I guess when you were describing your time as a dentist and taking the full set of teeth out of young people, that was during a period when we had a Labour government. So we were failing them as well. I actually think there's undoubtedly a challenge. So back in, so it was 2007 when the SMP came to power. And so I spent some of my time, of course,

when there was a Scottish Labour government as well as when there was an SMP government. But I think huge progress was made under Labor government. And I'm not going to pretend for a second that every single thing that the SMP is done in Scotland the last 20 years has been bad. Because I just think any politician that tells you that just isn't telling the truth.

There's a reason why they kept winning elections for 20 years. There's a reason why people kept voting for them because they were doing some things that were good. But my argument is they've lost their way and they aren't what they were on. We need a change of government in Scotland, new ideas, new leadership, new energy, etc. But are there communities that feel as if structurally

they've been left behind I think the honest answer to that is yes. So it's interesting, we've talked about Rory's mentioned around the impact on Muslim communities around the rise in Islamophobia or the impact on you've mentioned around Sadiqqqa impact on minority communities and the rise of racism. I think one of the dangers we have is let's not pretend that there's a hierarchy of inequality that exists in our country. Let's be really honest. For many working class communities, I think about East End of Glasgow where we are just, now, for generations, young people in East End of Glasgow, young white boys, their life chances,

outcomes and life expectancy is defined not by their talent, not by their knowledge, not by their ability, but by their postcode and their social background. That is scandalous and shouldn't be happening. So we've got to address those underlying harder issues if we are also going to take on that politics of fear and blame at the same time. One of the things that seems to have not worked as well in Scotland under the S&P is education. We grew up in a world. We grew up in a world. where we looked at Scottish education as being the great example of the world, and actually the result's been pretty disappointing. I suppose my question to you is,

are you prepared to do what it takes to really radically reform the education system, or is it just going to be, if you win, a continuation of the SMP, which looks like a pretty lax kind of indulgent of old ideas of education and not really transforming the life chances of those people from working class communities you're talking about? So I think the short answer is, yes, we will take that different approach because the opposite would be an absolute dereliction of duty and will not doing fair by a generation. So you're right, Rory, Scotland had this history and tradition of education

and it being an example to the rest of the UK and to the rest of the world. But let's be honest about what's happening in far too many places in Scottish education right now. Our literacy and numeracy rates have declined. We're way behind in terms of where we need to be around science and technology. Our proportion of children that are now classed as having some kind of additional support need has increased to 43% of pupils at school. At the same time, the resources and classrooms have been pulled back. So at the same time as ASN numbers have gone up to 43%,

the number of ASN teachers has fallen by almost 20%. and we have lack of discipline in our schools, partly with what happens with mobile phones, partly because we don't have in many places permanent contracts for teachers, too many resources taken away, and a curriculum for excellence that was introduced as a good concept, but actually does not promote excellence.

Instead, has seen the gap narrow between different social demographics more by the top coming down rather than raising everybody up. And that fundamentally has to change. So we will not scrap exams, because I think you still need exams. Of course you do. But we have to change the culture

that exists in our schools and the kind of education. So how do we have mobile phones, banned in our classrooms so people can concentrate on their education, not on their brains being polluted by dopamine hits that come from algorithms or social media feeds?

We can get discipline in the classrooms. How do we get more classroom assistance around our teachers so we can make sure every kid in the class is getting the time they need. And the reason why I think that's really important is because if you imagine a class of 30 plus with one teacher, no classroom assistant, if 43% of that class has some kind of additional support need, if there is distractions in the classroom because of the mobile phone, if there's really bad discipline and behavior, just think about those kids in that classroom who that little

bit of nudge extra time with their teacher could be the difference between them getting into an apprenticeship, a college, place, or university. That's life changing for them. And right now we don't have a system that works for all those kids. So we have to change that and get all those things. And then when they leave school, how do we make sure we don't have this culture in Scotland that just says, if you go to university, we're going to throw every kind of resource at you and you are the chosen ones. But if you don't choose to go to university, you are somehow written off. There is no one right path. So how do we invest in our colleges? How do we maintain free tuition, but do it differently? How do we invest in apprenticeships? And how do we finally link the growth areas in our economy

to the skills we need in our country around defence, around AI, around technology? All these are huge, huge opportunities for us. I know that's a really long answer to what your question was, but fundamentally, I've always been a believer that the best route out of poverty is a good education, an adequate skill, and a well-paid job, rather than simply thinking about a welfare payment.

I believe in the welfare state, but it's a sticking plaster that doesn't challenge and end structural poverty. How are we going to end structural poverty in Scotland? It's through good education, good skill, good well-paid job. Now, you know what I'm going to come at you with now. your dad educated you privately. That was his choice.

And I can see Rory getting his... Rory and I argue about private education a lot. But you educate your children privately. Why? So every family will have conversations with their own household. Every family will talk about decisions that they think are best for their child. And one of the things I've been really conscious of is that different kids in different ways will have different challenges in their lives.

So I'm really lucky that I didn't have to worry about food on the table and bills. When I was growing up, my kids are lucky in that same sense too. But how do we have an education system that works for every kid right across the country? And that's why I'm so determined to fix that going forward. But do you know, I think that if you become First Minister, that somebody who's watching what you say and do in relation to education would maybe feel more compelled to listen and follow if actually you were saying my kids are in the state sector too?

So look, I don't pretend to be something I'm not. I don't hide away from decisions either that I have made or my family have made about our kids or anything else. I've very much lived all my, since I was 12, all my life very much in the public domain. People know who I am. They can make judgments based on who I am. They've made those judgments since I became leader.

They've made those judgments, obviously, in the election in 2024, and they'll make those judgments in this election campaign as well. But am I determined to deliver a country that gives every young person a chance and an opportunity? Absolutely I am. Because right now, so many of our kids are written off at birth, and that cannot be allowed to happen. Some people might say, listening to you, the labour default often sounds like we just need more money. We need more resources. We're not giving enough money to teachers. We don't have enough teaching assistance. But you might say, you don't need maybe even to be Donald Trump to say that the UK economy is really struggling.

It's not really growing. And, you know, your family ran a business, and you must be aware of how many regulations there are, how much red tape there are, is how non-business friendly in many ways the British economy has become. A lot of investment is leaving, not much investment's coming in. So what would you do to actually restructure, make it more business-friendly, get more entrepreneurs in, get the economy growing, or am I sounding too right-wing? I wholeheartedly agree with you, Rory, because, I think it's probably what makes me different from previous Scottish Labour leaders and gives me a different understanding about all these things. So I grew up in a entrepreneurial family.

I spent lots of my childhood sweeping floors and my old man's warehouses, stacking the shelves and seeing and taking lots of questions about buying margins and such like. so thinking about businesses and costs and then spent time in our public services obviously being a NHS dentist in Paisley and then I've spent the last 16 years in politics so I've got a view of all three of those different sides and if I'm honest I don't think more money is the answer

I think one how you generate wealth and use that wealth in a way to fund a functioning public sector I think is really important how you inspire entrepreneurship and celebrate success is also really important. I think too often as a country success is seen as quite a dirty word or ambition is seen as a dirty word when an actual fact, if we don't have entrepreneurship, we don't have successful businesses, we don't have anything else because you only get social change if it's backed up with a strong growing economy.

So I will always be an economics first politician. Secondly, let's be honest, are we spending every penny of public money well? We're not. and so much of what is accepted and tolerated in the public sector would never be accepted or tolerated in the private sector or indeed in the third sector. So we've got to spend the money better in Scotland. But we've also got to not just keep slicing the cake into thinner and thinner pieces,

we've got to increase the size of the cake. And if we fill the growth gap that exists in Scotland, so if our economy in Scotland had grown at the same rate as the rest of the UK bar London, we would actually have £800 million more to spend than our public services every year. So to your question on what? we would do differently is I want to be a first minister that's a deal maker that gets things done, not just one that legislates and regulates. Secondly, our tax rates are too high in Scotland.

How do we drive down tax rather than using it as a substitute for economic growth? How do we reform our rate system so it's rigged in favour of the town centres and high streets rather than against them with the online giants? Our planning system is archaic. How do we create a national planning agency so we can try and half the time it takes for a planning application because we are competing with the world where investment goes and we want the investment to come to Scotland. Our skill system, we are not creating the talent supply chain for our economy. So how do we partner business with colleges and universities? So we do have that supply chain of businesses. How do we have a transport system that works and inspires growth?

Regional economic development is a huge part of what's working in London. It's working in Manchester. We don't do regional economic development in Scotland. Instead, we treat Scotland as if it's one big homogenous block when the reality is the economic model for the islands and the islands is very different to Glasgow and the west of Scotland. Our enterprise agencies are huge, but we're spending on wage bills rather than actually investing

in good quality businesses that need to get pushed over the line. We're good at startups in Scotland, we're not at scale-ups in Scotland. How do we support those businesses to scale up and to grow? And the final bit, and you both are a good example of this and you both will know this from your own

lived experience and you both travel a lot is why don't we tap into the soft power of Scotland for economic benefit? Ireland does it brilliantly. It taps into brand Ireland to attract investment, tourism and opportunity with the rest of the world. Scotland can do the exact same, particularly in the North American market, but much more besides. So I want people to believe, because it is, Scotland's a great place to visit. It's a great group of people. It's got beautiful landscapes.

But I also want big neon signs that say Scotland is also a great place to do business. I said in the introduction that when the general election happened and Labor got that huge landslide, you must have thought we are in a really good place now for the Holy Root election. And yet here you are looking at pretty grim, grizzly poll figures. And the SMP looking like they're coming back, going to be staying in power after 19 years. I mean, what is happening? I'm going to surprise some people, Alice. Well, you know, maybe.

But what has happened that's gone from point A to point B or point C and point B being where? you were so frustrated that you felt you had to call for Kirstama to go? So I think there's a couple of caveats to put on that first. First of all, this was always going to be a hard election and is a hard election, but one, I still believe we can win. Secondly, if we hadn't won the UK general election, there is no chance we could have even been contention for this election. Because I think the politics of the UK would have been, Tories re-elected despite all the scandal and chaos, and I think that would have been a very different approach between the SMP and another Tory government across, the UK, but I mean, I remember saying it to UK shadow cabinet and then very early UK cabinet

that the election in Scotland will be much easier if it's a midterm of a popular Labor government rather than the midterm of an unpopular labor government. So that is undoubtedly a challenge. I think there are two things in the analysis, though, that is missing in Westminster, but actually also up here as well, which is undoubtedly a UK Labour government is unpopular. But I think right now that is overpriced in the opinion polls. And I, at the same time, I think people underestimate how unpopular an SMP Scottish government is, and I think right now that's underpriced in the opinion polls. And my job over the course of the next five weeks or so is to persuade people

that let's not pass a judgment on two years of a UK government, let's pass judgment on 20 years of an SMP Scottish government, and this is what we would do differently using the power we have right now by pulling our country together rather than simply dividing it on those constitutional lines. I guess you're very politely skirting around one of the massive things. I'm happy not to be polite, Rory, and don't let me skirt. Tell me, cut to the chase. I'm happy to cut to the chase.

You did call for the Prime Minister Kiyosama to resign, right? I mean, that's a big deal for a Labour leader in Scotland. Do you regret doing that? Have you changed your mind? You backing off from that? I mean, you didn't quite engage with Alice's question around that. You didn't lean into it and say, I was right to do so. He needs to go.

I could see you wanted a follow up, Rory. That's why I was letting you back in. Oh, thank you. I stand by it. I don't recoil from it. And I think people need to understand what I did and why I did it. And there's lots of people I think

that think about it in the premise of what it means for the ups and downs of individual Westminster politicians. And I think there's lots of people to think about it in the context of what does it mean for Westminster. But I think they misunderstand one me, but second also

the reality of what's happening in Scotland. I am putting myself in front of the people of Scotland in the next five weeks looking them in their eye, asking them to put their trust and faith in me. And I think people in Scotland deserve to know what do I stand for, what are my values, what am I willing to accept, what are my standards, and whether I will be honest, not just have a private view and say one thing in private and a different thing in public, but will I be honest and what would I do differently?

And lots of people have thought about what I said in the context of Westminster, genuinely, I was making it abundantly clear that my first priority and my first loyalty is to my country, Scotland. And frankly, this might sound about harsh. I don't really care what people in Westminster think. I only care what people in Scotland think. You must care who the Prime Minister is.

Of course I do. And it's just, so you said you're going to be honest. You're smiling, they're Rory. I like your smile. The Rory Stewart smiles out, Alice. Right. So you want to be honest. You want to tell us what you think.

So be honest. Tell us what you think about Kirstama and why he shouldn't be prime minister. Well, you've heard what I've said. And I made it really clear. You haven't actually said much about that. You sort of told us that you stand by your family. Yeah, yeah.

Look, I said what I said. I stand by what I said. What did you say again? I mean, I can't actually remember. I think you know exactly what I said, Rory, what my view is. And let me explain why. Let me explain why. Because I had spent weeks in the Scottish Parliament

exposing the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital scandal. Where myself, families impacted, some of them who had lost loved ones. healthcare professionals who had been bullied in gaslit. We spent eight years campaigning to get truth and justice about what was happening at the infections situation at the hospital. And to this day, that hospital has not been validated and wards verified. And so I was in Parliament making this argument

of First Minister's questions. And honestly, if that was a hospital anywhere else in the UK, I believe it would be wall-to-all news coverage every single day about how this could be allowed to happen. I came out of that parliament and got door-stepped by the entire Scottish press lobby. And I didn't get a single question

about the hospital. I didn't get a single question about the families. Every single question was about Peter Mandelson, the UK Labor Government, and the judgment calls on him being appointed as the US Ambassador. And honestly, I'm just not willing to defend that. I'm not willing to defend

what was someone who shouldn't have even been considered for the job of Ambassador, never mind, be Ambassador. And also, I'm not willing to sacrifice Scotland to that kind of argument and to that debate because who the government in Scotland is, who the First Minister is really matters to us in Scotland because it's our schools, our hospitals,

our care homes, our town, cities, villages, it's our ferries, it's our transport system, it's our local businesses. And I'm not willing to sacrifice any of them because I'm not willing to be open and honest about what's happening across the UK or indeed what needs to happen here in Scotland. Okay, and a final one for me,

it strikes me that once you've taken that big decision to separate yourself from Starming, it, it opens up a lot of opportunity for you to be clear about what you would do in running Scotland, which is different from what Labour is doing in England. And it seems to me you haven't taken enough of that opportunity. You've put yourself in a very difficult position where you've said, OK, I'm criticising him about this narrow thing about Mandelson. But your voters are angry about a lot of the stuff that the UK government's doing. So now that you've taken the radical decision to separate yourself, why don't you lay out a radically different Scottish Labour vision instead of

trying to defend a lot of things that irritate people about what the Labour government's doing in the UK? I'm not sure what you're suggesting I'm defending. So first of all, look, I'm not doing it to run against a UK Labour government. I'm running against a Scottish SMP government, but where I think, I do think we can show and lead by example here in Scotland is we are going to bring down the tax burden in Scotland and demonstrate we can grow our economy and cut tax. We are going to reform our rate system to make sure we're not rigging it against high streets and town centres. But even bigger than that, if you think about the first conversation we had when we started this conversation around 45 minutes ago, is we talked about the big challenge around the politics of the right,

largely the politics of reform. I honestly believe in Scotland we will demonstrate to the rest of the UK, how you can win in the politics of hope and unity, not feed off the politics of despair. And I honestly think we can be an example to the rest of the UK, how you can do change by bringing people together, not further dividing people. And also be an example to the rest of the UK, that you can do it while telling a positive story about your country. And I think a lot of that's been what's missing since the UK Labour government got elected. Hi, everybody. It's Dominic Sauerich here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Restis Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying

Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that

I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson, and we'll be talking about one of the grimest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout.

Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. One of the conventional wisdoms that seems to be getting challenged as we get nearer to this election on May the 7th is a sense that existed over the last few years that Scotland was kind of a bit of immune to the threat of reform. But you look at the polls and reform seemed to be doing reasonably well. Is that because we got that conventional wisdom wrong?

Or is something changed in the body politic in Scotland that has made that right-wing populism more attractive? So I've always had a view, Alistair, that our chattering class in Scotland had a more progressive, less of centre position than what would be the nuts of the bolts if you poll people about priorities and different issues. So people often talk about, you know, the rest of the UK wants to be much more stringent and strict on welfare, whereas Scotland wants to be really generous on welfare. Actually, if you look at polling, it's about two or three percent different to how people view the welfare state.

Immigration, again, people will think, oh, the rest of the UK, they really want to clamp down on immigration. They think immigration is a huge issue. People don't really care about in Scotland. But on actual fact, immigration is now rising as an issue in Scotland. it's probably a top three issue in Scotland now and actually always, if you look at views on immigration, it was always a two or three percent difference.

So I've always been of a view that we have a chattering class in Scotland that is a bit more left wing than the rest of the UK. But what are challenges? We're not immune to this in Scotland compared to anywhere else. And in some ways, whilst I don't think, well, I know the SMP and reform aren't of the same political values.

I'm not going to pretend they are. I'm not going to pretend that the SMP and reform have a same view when it comes to right-wing politics. They don't have the same. same value system. It'd be churlish to even suggest that they do. But they do have one similarity. They both play the politics of fear and blame. Both fundamentally have an argument that says, identify a problem and point at a group of people or an institution and say it wouldn't be that problem if it wasn't for them over there. The SMP do it by pointing to Westminster or to London or

to the UK and saying we've got these problems in Scotland, we wouldn't have them if only were away from that lot. And reforms say, look at this problem. If it wasn't, for them over there, usually pointing at a community, whether it's by race, religion, and saying we wouldn't have these problems if it wasn't for them over there. Both feed off on us versus them, both feed off of fear and blame. I'm just done with that kind of politics. And that is, I think, our generational challenge is do we become a country that lets the politics of fear and blame and despair take hold and all the dangers that then poses to our country more broadly? Or do we're going to confront it with a positive story?

about what the challenges are, how we change the country, we're bringing the country together in the process, and that's what I want to demonstrate we can do in Scotland, and that's what I think is a lesson for a UK Labour Party as well. How on earth have the SMP managed to survive? I mean, admittedly, I'm not very friendly to them, but I look at them, you know, even when I'm in Scotland, I think, come on, these guys lost their independence referendum.

As you said, Scottish schools are in a pretty big mess. The Scottish economy isn't even doing as well as the pretty lamentable English economy. They had this amazing scandal where their leader and their chief executive ended up with weird stuff to do with the police and motorhomes. And they've been in forever. I mean, nobody likes insurgents and governments get tired. How on earth can they, after umpteen years, still be on course to win again? So there's a couple of things than that. One is, I always joke that it's often better being lucky than good.

And they've been very lucky with lots of circumstances that have happened across the UK. and lots of what to campaign against. So, you know, Boris obviously was a contrast to Nicholas Sargent through the COVID period, etc. But I think there's a more self-reflective part that we have to be honest about. They kept winning and we kept losing because we weren't good enough.

And I set myself that challenge when I took on this job five years ago, when everyone said the Labour Party was dead and it was just a shell when I took over five years ago is how do we get the Labor Party back on its feet, make it worthy of its name, and make it worthy of people's support again. How do you earn people's trust?

And we did the hard work to get ourselves back into second place in the council elections in 2022. We did the hard work to win the Rutherland by election when people said we couldn't win. We did the hard work to earn people's trust and to win the general election in Scotland getting a share of the vote. There was a 10 times increase in shared the vote

in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK because we did the hard work and won people. trust in 2024. We did the hard work to win the Hamilton by-election when people say we're going to come third, one journalist even suggesting we would come fifth in that by-election, and now we're going to do the hard work to persuade people for this election. So we've got to earn people's trust and their support and be good enough to win. And for too long, sadly, in the last 20 years, we've not been good enough and that's why we got beat. Given the complicated

electoral system, which we brought in in 1998, partly to make sure that no one party ever had absolute power. And that's called very, very well. Are you taking responsibility? I was a young boy then. So I was a part of the thinking. Since when the SMP have had quite a lot of power, which of the parties that are standing in this election

would you definitively not ever go into coalition with? We're not doing any coalitions, any deals, any stitch-ups. Alex Salmon demonstrated actually in 2007 that you can do minority government and the parliament can work. And don't forget, in 2007, he did minority government and he went on to win a majority in 2011. And my intention is to hopefully win the majority of constituencies

in this election and to form a minority labor government and go back to what devolution was supposed to be about, which was try and find common ground on individual issues to make progress in our country. So why is John Swinney going around the place saying that you and Nigel Farage had, I hesitate to put this thought into head, but getting in bed together? I mean, it is the act of a desperate man, Alistair.

But can I just say that you would never, ever, ever go into any sort of deal with... Well, of course not. And what about the Tories? No, no deals, no coalition, no grubby backroom stuff. And the reason why I think is really important is this is a political party in reform that literally spent tens of thousands of pounds on an advert saying that my first loyalty would not be to Scotland, it would be to somewhere else. today they're launching a billboard campaign claiming that we are being overrun by

rubber dinghies in Scotland and also today they've repeated that they're opening to the idea of rerunning that ad in this election campaign and I just think John Swinney has gone in the matter of a week in this election campaign from starting the first day of the campaign saying they were guaranteed to win

to now saying don't vote Labour in this election because they're going to do some kind of grubby deal with reform so therefore vote for the SMP again it's desperate. it. Our politics needs to be much bigger and better than that. Let's have an argument debate about how we fix our skills, how we reform our NHS, how we grow Scotland's economy. Let's have that kind of debate. Let's demonstrate the best of Scottish politics rather than this kind of nonsense about Nigel Farage is going to be in bed with me, this and the next thing. The guy's

a horror. I won't touch him with a barge pole. I reject his politics. I want him gone. I can't wait till he gets gubed at the next general election and I hope we start the process of gumming them in this one. But you're not talking about the SMP in quite that way. I mean, I'd be interested in talking about corruption in the SMP, the behavior of individual politicians. We talk about Tory sleaze and scandal, but honestly, Alex Salmon, Peter Morel, there's a sense sometimes of a very small, cozy, intimate, weird party where the leader can be married to the chief executive or all kinds of shenanigans going on. Isn't it time that that was called out in this campaign? Yes, and let's be honest, John Swinney has been the architect of much of this.

John Swinney wants to pretend that he's now some kind of, I think the line he's using is a fresh start. Someone has been in government for 20 years to claim that he is now the fresh start that our country needs, I think, is frankly laughable. But I think there's something a bit more serious at play here. So look, how a party operates. Of course, that's the subject of investigation and the facts of that have to be. to come out. But let's look at how they've functioned as a government. It is a government that thinks secrecy,

cover up, never taking responsibility, always finding somebody else to blame, is the correct path. John Swinney's instinct has always been, protect the party first, do what's right by Scotland second. And I just think that kind of

politics, again, is something I've got no time for. I want to demonstrate that I will do what's right by Scotland, that I'll put Scotland first and that Scotland can do differently than what we have just now. And I'm not going to pretend the SMP has got everything wrong in 20 years, but they've lost their way. They're out of ideas.

They're out of energy. And we need a new generation of leadership in Scotland. And that's the positive offer I'll be making to Scots over the course of the next five weeks. Has devolution overall been a success? I think devolution has been a success. And I think it is a successful concept. I think the danger is that unless we start demonstrating

the gains of leadership for this generation of the here and now, that the debate then becomes polarized between whether it's leave the UK or shut down the parliament and that would be a terrible, terrible place for us to be. So let's demonstrate that devolution can work. And actually, let's do the next step of devolution, which is take power out of Hollywood

and give it to the regions of Scotland so that different parts of the country can flourish in a similar way that regional devolution has really worked successfully in England. Would your children go into politics and what would they say if we put them in the studio and say, are you lining up to be the... Honestly, the thought of my kids going into politics, honestly, I may your kids.

I saw that were very much brighter than you. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly, brighter, better looking, the full shebang. But I think sacrificing two generations is enough, Rory, let's not sacrifice. A third, look, the reason why I wouldn't want them to do it. And ultimately, I'll obviously always back my kids in what they want to do, but I don't think they'd ever want to do it. and I wouldn't want them to do it,

is for all you, and I think about fatherhood a lot as you would, and I just think that I know how I had to create a alternative normal for myself when I was growing up. And I know that my kids have to do the same as well, where I've presented and projected an unnormal, normal for them. And that comes with burden, comes with some opportunities, no doubt,

but it comes with burden, comes with some levels of hardship, particularly in the current climate of how politics is. So I want to serve my time as First Minister do right by this country, demonstrate we can do politics differently. And then having done that, I want to make sure I'm spending my time nurturing, supporting my kids. And by that time, you never know, I might even be a granddad. I can look after them as well.

Oh, lovely. Well, listen, one thing you mustn't let them do is read Rory's book. Because in fact, you probably should let them read it because that means. that never ever think about going to politics. I think my eldest has read Rory's book. You were churning my eldest yesterday for his dress code. He was very upset about that. Was he?

By the Stone Island. I was just pointing out the Stone Island as a brand is associated with football humanism. Maybe not anymore. Maybe not. Honestly, he's my eldest, I'm not going to see anything about the other two, by the way, but my eldest is the most calm, sweet, sincere, hardworking you can ever imagine. They're the ones to watch.

So listen, my last couple of questions, you mentioned the success of the Irish in the way that they brand Ireland globally and Scotland does it a bit but not maybe successful. I want to know, why have you never, ever, ever worn a kilt given you want to be the first minister of Scotland?

And secondly, Have you seen my knees, Alistair? My knees point in opposite directions. Nobody's knees look good. Naomi Campbell's knees don't look that good. She's my cousin, you know. I've never looked so I wouldn't know the answer to that Alistair so that would be a powerful thing

a Muslim senior Muslim Scottish politician who may be first minister you couldn't get more Scottish than I think you should do it I really do I do I do tartan trues oh that's where Rory and these friends do it even I don't have the pink I don't have the pinky ring like Rory though that's the thing that's the difference

so I've done tartan trues obviously tartan Wisco I'll wear Harris tweed I've done the tart and tie But the actual The reason why I've not So it's funny Because there's been a few occasions

Where I thought about right I'll wear a quilt But I've always said So I will wear a quilt For the first time But I want to wear it When it's something majorly significant So

Scotland won in the World Cup So So post Scotland won in the World Cup And that way I might never wear a quilt Then if it's Scotland won the World Cup So I don't know whether it is post an election or a son's wedding or something of that, but there'll be a kilt, Alistair, and I'll make sure I send you a picture on my knees when it happens. Okay, okay.

And then my second point on soft pad, is Trump and his Scottish connection through his mum? Is that an asset to Scotland or is it a bit of a, you'd rather his mum would be Venezuelan. So, look, I think there is actually an opportunity. So I was actually in Stornoway this week and I was looking at the relatively new cruise liner terminal that they've opened at the port of Stornoway.

Stornow on Lewis where his mum came from. Correct. Where he calls Serious Scotland. Serious Scotland, yeah. And they were actually telling me how they're getting more and more people making bookings and interested in more stops from American cruise ships

than pre-the-election of Donald Trump. So if there is an opportunity to create that connection for positive tourism opportunities, then why not? I think there's a way of doing it without having to say that you agree with someone's politics. Okay, I think it'd be much better if his mother had never left Lewis and that world would have been a much better place.

Listen, it's not as Mamie's fault how he's turned out. I'm a defender of the Mamies, by the way. I wouldn't be half the person I was if it wasn't for my mother. So I would say all the good things about me are because of my mother, all the bad things I take responsibility for myself. Okay, okay. Well, somewhere in Punjabi, Dad will be listening to this, they'll be a cheeky little bugger.

Oh, no, he knows I prefer my mum to my dad anyway. It's fine. That's an open secret. All right, well, let's say for your time. My pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been great. Thank you, honest.

Very much. Thank you, bye. So, Rory, what do you think of that? Well, look, I like him very much. He came into Parliament with me. I think he's very, very funny, warm, cheeky in person. I mean, if the listeners had seen all the shenanigans about you teasing him about about being late and him accusing you of chining him and all this kind of stuff,

But I do fear that not enough that comes across when he's doing his public stuff. I mean, I'd be interested in this, but what I would have thought was massive open goals to lay into the S&P. And he kept coming back to this line. I'm not going to say that everything they've done for the last 20 years has been a bad thing. And even Trump, you know, it's not that difficult to say Trump is a blithering idiot, and I don't want having to do with them. And there's something a bit odd about it, particularly in modern politics, to be unable

to say very clearly that the parties you're running against are pretty monstrous and that somebody like Trump. I mean, there was a lack of, just occasionally, I just kept thinking, it's not quite sound by, it's a lack of kind of, given how funny and smarty is, just a lack of energy and adjectives and clarity. It's funny, because I spent part today this morning with some friends I know up here who were telling me, talking about the election. And one of the things they were saying is that they get fed up at the time.

the fact that all the parties ever do. The SMP talk about themselves and they talk about independence the whole time and all the other parties just attack the SMP. One thing he's definitely doing, I talked about this to him earlier, is avoiding trying to make this election remotely about independence

because the SMP are trying to do that. I think that's a deliberate thing of not just being a kind of negative politician. I actually thought he came most alive when you were pushing him on a pro-business agenda and being different from the UK. I thought that's... And I think he's trying to be more positive

than just sort of sitting around saying the SMP are terrible. And let's be honest, Rory, if he does become First Minister of Scotland, he cannot say Trump's a blithering idiot. I'm sorry, he just can't. That is not... We're back to our Sanchez, arguable. Labor cannot be like Sanchez and the rhetoric.

You and I can, but I think if you're the First Minister's Scotland, you've got to be a little bit careful. Well, okay, but when it comes to Alex Salmond and Peter Morrell, and the scandals in the SMP, I think he could be pretty clear about that. I mean, I don't really see that he'd suffer much saying, listen, it's pretty pathetic, they're pretty incompetent, it's a bit of a disgrace. I mean, why is he being quite so polite about the party he's running against?

I think he would think he's not being that polite. I think he keeps saying that the countries, they fail the country, they've lost their way, we need to replace them. I think he's trying to do a positive campaign, which normally I think you would applaud. I love the business stuff. I love the business stuff. but maybe there's a balance here. I think that he could find a few crisp, funny, brutal lines about his opposition.

Yeah. Which would get you laughing, which you'd remember. I mean, can you remember any of his lines about the S&P? Really? That's the only one. They've lost their way. They've lost their way. Yeah.

The most positive stuff I thought was lovely. I mean, all for him on business. And I think that's hugely important. And it's great to see somebody in British politics making old-fashioned arguments about entrepreneurs and business people. I just, no, I was just, so many of the American politicians we've interviewed recently seem to be just, you know, from Gavin Newsome onwards, just much more colourful and relaxed and memorable in the way that they talk about the world and their opponents. And British politics still seems a bit cautious and cramped. Essentially, I'll listen. I think if you compare it to most Labour politicians, he is not cautious and cramped and he's very, very colourful, and he's very, very, very, I kind of see what he's trying to do, I think, which is you could spend all your time. whacking the SNP.

And the SMP seems to me up here fighting a pretty strong base campaign at the moment, which is why they do keep going on about independence. But I think that... And yes, you can attack the record. But I think he's trying to answer that question. And it's interesting, he goes one step further. He actually says,

we can't just criticise the SMP. We have to look at ourselves for not having been able to beat them. So I think it's genuinely trying to do this a little bit differently and fight a positive campaign. I think the worry I have from a Labour perspective, is that the campaign's not going to be long enough to get him, to get him through

to the public in a way that I think if he could get through to the public, I think he'd be very, very popular. Is there maybe something I'm missing about the way that people think about the SMP? I mean, for example, Labour doesn't run campaigns against the Tories in a general election in Britain saying, I'm not going to pretend that everything the Tories have done for the last 20 years is wrong, that, you know, they go for the jugular. They're incredibly clear about, you know, what a lot of it. a disgrace they are and why they need to be booted out.

Is it that actually he senses there's a huge amount of residual sympathy for the SMP and people don't really see them as bad people and therefore he can't really, you can't do what Labour would naturally do to the Tories? No, I think it's more that he is trying to project a sense of positivity about himself, about Labour and about Scotland. I think the reason that ultimately, and you know, we discussed it on the podcast at the time, I thought it was a very big call, as you said, to call for Kier Stahma to resign. But I think that was his kind of breakpoint.

And it's, you know, the SMP were all ready to go with posters that basically said, you know, Anna Sauer is Kier Stahmer's man in Scotland because they were going to capitalize on this sense that Labor's not as popular as they were when they were first elected. So I think he's trying to be positive about himself, his own personality, his own character, try to put a more positive vision for what the Labour Party stands for, which is where I agree with you. I think the business thing is very, very important. And probably saying to himself, it's dead easy to track the SMP, but every minute I'm doing that, I'm not telling people why we're the alternative. And I think it's why Labor is the alternative that is the hardest, the hardest battle

right now. Okay. Well, maybe my final thing would just be, it's not a question of time. It might just be a question of two or three more memorable crisp phrases and adjectives and metaphors and a bit of way of making people wake up, you know, telling image somewhere. Well, the one thing I know, Roy, is he listens to, he listens very close with the podcast, often tells me. In fact, he was talking about it last time I spoke to him, and he was remembering interviews that I'd frankly forgot what we'd done. So he follows very closely. As he left the room, he said, oh, God, this is the bit where you guys talk about me. So he'll doubtless to be listening. And then he'll probably come on, say, come on, then, Rory, give me these adjectives. Give me these,

What are these adjectives I've got a found? Good. Well, let's have that. I also agree with you about the kilt. You think he should wear a kilt? Absolutely. I can understand why he's going to, I spent quite a lot of time at the coronation next to Homsy Yusuf, who was wearing a kilt. Yeah. I don't understand why he's not wearing a kilt.

Final one for me, do you think it's worked for him coming out against Kirstama? I mean, how would you balance, let's say you were giving strategic advice? Do you think that in the end was net positive or a net negative, just politically? Well, it's talking not just about. us, but to other people in the Scottish Labour Party, they say it has definitely worked in that it's much harder. When they're meeting people who are just generally pissed off with life, they're not, they find it harder just to blame the Labour government when they know that the guy

who's standing to be their first minister has come out. So I think it probably hasn't it positive. I sort of agree with you, though, at the time that I always, I know you don't always get my football analogies, but it's like a, it's like if a star player calls for the manager to go, but the manager doesn't go. The staff player then has to have a relationship with that manager. And I think that's the bit he underestimated maybe when he was talking about, you know, my first interest has to be Scotland. Well, that's fine, but Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. Labour wants it to be part of the United Kingdom. And it kind of does matter who the Prime Minister

is of the United Kingdom. And the First Minister of Scotland's relationship with the first, with the Prime Minister matters as well. But I think the one thing he's got because he is such a kind of warm, empathetic character. I think if there was one politician on the landscape now who I could imagine breaking a bridge but then rebuilding the bridge in personal terms, I think he can

probably do that. Good. Well, thank you, Alice, for getting it. Very pleased to join it. And I think he's a really fascinating guy. And I thought, thank you for getting to that. Okay. See you soon. See you soon. Bye-bye.