The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 186. President Aleksandar Vučić: Russia, China, and How Serbia Could Join the EU

Episode Date: April 26, 2026

How does President Vučić justify Serbia's geopolitical balancing act between Russia, China, and the European Union? Why does he warn that if the EU further delays enlargement, the United States might seize the opportunity to build its own sphere of influence in Southeastern Europe? Can Serbia join the EU without recognising Kosovo's independence, and what would that mean for Europe's future? Rory and Alastair are joined by Aleksandar Vučić, President of Serbia, to discuss all this and more. __________________ Search IG.com to find out more and/or Look for IG in your app store. __________________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Videographer: James Clayden, Video Editor: Josh Smith, Vasco Andrade Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Exec Producer: Chris Sawyer General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members' chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the rest is politics.com. Help us understand your position in relation to Russia. You're presenting yourself as a beacon of democracy. Russia was a beacon of evil, which is not true. Broadly speaking, we are more democratic than Russia, right? I mean, the gray and nuances, but Putin is running in an autocratic state. different cultures, there are different traditions. You were always speaking about Serbia that was a Russian puppet. We've never said that. Okay, you're. Never said that. What does it feel like

looking back to the fact that we were enemies and we're now sitting around a table together? Many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders. We have principles, unlike you, Alistair, from time to time. This episode is brought you by IG. If you're listening to to this podcast, the chances are you're someone who thinks seriously about politics, economics and your own financial future. You probably also understand that volatility can also mean opportunity. So rather than waiting for things to settle down, you're wondering how to invest. And that's where IG comes in. They've been trusted by British investors for over 50 years through every kind of market

condition you can think of. IG offers zero commission on your investments, zero account fees and they were just voted best low-cost ICER at the 2026 Boring Money Awards. If you've been thinking about investing or you want a new investment platform that gives you better value, search IG.com today and find out about their latest welcome offers for new customers. IG trade, invest, progress. Your capital is at risk. Other fees may apply. Welcome to the rest of politics leading with me, Alice Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. And we are in the presidential palace in Belgrade, capital of Serbia, with Ali. under Wuchich. Now, when I first came across Mr. Vuchich, he was in charge of the government

information machine under Slobodan Milosevic. I had a similar role in the UK, and then when we were at war over Kosovo at NATO. He rose through politics, first to become prime minister, and now for the last nine years has been president. I, on the other hand, present a podcast with Rory Stuart. So we won the war, I would argue, but maybe he has won the battle for long-term power and relevance. Quick explainer for younger listeners and others, what happened? Well, essentially there was a war in former Yugoslavia, which took place from the early 1990s onwards, which involved the breaking way of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovnia, North Macedonia, ultimately Montenegro. But there was a second war which Alistair and I were

closely involved in different ways. It's an official and Alastair's a very senior member of Tony Blair's administration, which was about the fact that in Kosovo itself, Milosevic launched a campaign, which was perceived by us, not by President Vucchich, as you will doubt this here, but certainly perceived by the West as a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Kosovo Albanians. This then led to an intervention, a coalition of 19 countries, Britain, the United States, France, and others, intervening in order to, from our point of view, protect the right of Kosovar Albanians there, human rights against Serbian aggression. And from the Serbian point of view, intervening illegally in contravention of UN regulations into their sovereign territory, drove the Serbian troops back

and achieved autonomy, and ultimately, from the point of view of Britain and others, the recognition of Kosovo as an independent state. This is seen by people like Alistram myself as a great example of liberal intervention standing up for human rights against a bloodthirsty dictator who eventually went off and was tried as a war criminal, but is seen as Serbians as removing a part of Serbian territory which matters deeply to them because it was in Kosovo-Polyer that they fought their great battle against the Ottoman Turks and they very much saw Kosovo as a vital, sacred part of the Serbian nation. Much more of that to be played out in the interview to come. Like all presidents, he's got a lot on his plate. He has a lot of support.

reporters, and he has a lot of critics. His supporters say, with some justification, that he's done a good job on the economy. His critics say that he has authoritarian tendencies in the model of Mr. Victor Orban, recently defeated in Hungary. His supporters say he's committed to driving Serbia towards the European Union. His critics say, sometimes the deeds don't always match the words. This is a European country, but it's one with very close ties to Russia, which with China, people may be surprised to know, Pol, as the two most popular foreign powers here. So he's trying to balance the European path with all these other complicated relationships and a very complicated history, not least Kosovo, which continues to be tricky. And Ukraine, where Serbia's indirect

provision of munitions has perhaps led to some rough conversations with Russia and even the Russian intelligence services saying that President Vuchis has blood on his hands. The China relationship came into very close focus around the world when a train station canopy collapsed in 2024, killing 16 people with allegations of corruption in the deals with China and the birth of a student protest moment which has become quite a force in Serbia.

And of course, like all world leaders, he's having to adapt to the world of Trump term two and think about his own future as he's only got one year left of his presidency. So we have got a lot to get through. Mr. President, thank you very much for doing the interview. Can we start in Kosovo? I mean, it's a strange connection for us. I was a British diplomat based with the military and Montenegro and Kosovo during the war. And of course, as he's pointed out, he was also working on Kosovo. So what does it feel like looking back over 26, 27 years to the fact that we were enemies and we're now sitting around a table together. Today, if you ask ordinary Serbian people what they feel about 1999 and how they felt, They feel even bigger resentment.

They feel bigger disappointment with the behavior of 19 countries that launched aggression against a sovereign state. And people are absolutely certain, which is even confirmed by almost everybody, that was done not in accordance with UN Charter, not in accordance with UN Resolution 1244. That was done not because of preventing humanitarian disaster, as it was said by Alistair and some other smart guys, but it was actually something West did in order to separate 14% of Serbia's territory, which was at least attempted to be done eight, nine years later, 2008, when they did this self-proclamation of their independence. And as a young man, you were very much on the nationalist side of the political debate. Looking back, do you draw a distinction between the wars in Bosnia and the war in Kosovo?

Do you have a different attitude towards what? It's a different legal situation. The roots are. You can find a common denominator speaking about the roots or the cause. of the clash of the clashes in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia and southern province. But at the end, it was a different legal situation. And you went through a transition. I mean, I believe initially you had been supportive,

and there were moments where it seemed as though you were earlier, defensive of figures like Maladich, but later you supported the movement for trials. First of all, I believe I have changed my views not only recently. It's a process, but it has nothing in common with the bombardment of Serbia or that aggression that was launched in 1999. But whether I am more pragmatic, more rational, whether I see the future of Serbia not in new wars, but in opening borders in an entire Balkans, opening borders. with Europe, this is what I see and I'm not ashamed. I'm not ashamed to say this. Even that with

Mladic was exaggerated because you saw those labels with his name that I was sticking somewhere, but it was not about that. It was about legal rights of some people to protest that were arrested about it. But you know, you cannot explain everything to everybody, but anyway, I just wanted to tell you that what is the real issue today in the Balkan, that people do, don't want to understand because for you, as Alistair has just said, it's all over we won the war. Yep, you were stronger. 19 strongest countries in the world were stronger than one small Serbia. And it was not the case that Serbia attacked any of your countries.

It was the case that you attacked Serbia. But people here are proud, dignified, and they don't forget it. And I like the fact that we are more rational, that we are future-oriented, but if you ask the people about their souls, about their opinions, you're going to hear 90% of the same what I have just told you. But is that part of the reason why you as the leader of the country also have to say it? Can you not look back and think actually the conduct of Milosevic and the attempted ethnic cleansing of Kosovo Albanians and some of the massacres that took place,

that the 19 countries would actually have been doing a disservice to humanity if we hadn't stepped in. I really disagree with you on this and I'm not going to, I'll discuss part of your sentence, which is don't look back to the past. Because would you say the same to Ukrainians with Crimea? Why do you look back to the past? In 2014, you lost that Crimea. Why do you still claim that it's your territory? You would never do so.

I think I would. You would? I didn't hear it from any Western officials. Well, I think part of the reason why Putin has gone on to do what he thinks he can do in the whole of Ukraine is because the world didn't stand up in us. But I can tell you many people in the world started doing something against sovereign nations and changing borders because they saw that you were able to change our borders, or at least you thought that you finished your job in 1999 and 2008. And that was the way that Pandora's box was opened, actually. When you say, if you ask all European officials today, if you ask all of them, tell me, how can you not be on Ukrainian science?

We support territorial integrity of Ukraine. We act in accordance with UN Charter, UN resolutions and everything else. But my question to you is, why are you still, we have 1244 resolutions. resolution in effect. It has not been dismantled or abolished. No. It's in effect. Why don't you observe that resolution? Okay. But... And it's not okay, Alistair. There are no responses to that. Whenever I say this, I hear the same sentence. Don't look back to the past. And then I say, I don't look back to the past. You asked me the question. Right. You wanted me to say this to you. Otherwise, would have spoken about, I don't know, Expo, growth rates.

GDP, public debt to GDP ratio and everything else. Yeah, and listen, we've got 45 minutes and I want to cover lots of that. And I do want to look forward, but the truth is, regardless of the history, and you and I can go backwards and forwards on that, one of your strategic goals, as I mentioned at the outset, is for Serbia to become a member of the European Union. Yes. Right.

It's never going to happen unless this issue gets somehow resolved. It's never going to happen. If you remember, and I know that you remember, You two are very smart guys Not going to flatter you furthermore But you know something You remember When you how you emphasize that

Won the war It's a different type of victories we had Although I have never said that we won We didn't But I don't think that you won Sorry I just unpacked that What do you mean about that You open that Pandora's box

And we'll all have a big pain in the future Because of opening that Pandora's box Do you think that relates to Iran today? Even with Iran. Yes. It's related to everything that was happening after that. And you know, all these politicians were saying, the first attack in Europe,

the first violation of territorial integrity happened in Ukraine. No, it's not true. It happened here. It happened here. You were guaranteeing, Alistair, you were guaranteeing us. Territorial integrity of Serbia. If we accept territorial integrity and independence of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina,

and Macedonia at that time. You don't accept. And we did accept that. No, and you don't accept that Slobodan-Minozvich did anything which justified the actual. No, I don't say that we were angels. I don't say that we were like people without any false without any guilt. No. But we were not the only culprit, no doubt, for everything that was happening here.

And I'm here speaking about the observance of international public law, which is very clear. And you cannot provide any kind of responses even as a very smart man and not any other guy can do that. The real issue is... Well, we can argue about that, but we'll take another five minutes of the interview. No, it can take even ten. Speaking about massacres and everything else, it was happening on both sides. It was exaggerated from your side about their destiny. It was also from our side, we were pretending that there were no war crimes on our

aside, but there were, but at the same time, there were many war crimes that not only Albanians, but foreign troops were committing against us as well. But, okay, put that aside. Now the question is, Pandora's box is opened. Now no one will stop it. No one will stop it until some new world order is produced. And that's it. And it was all about Yugoslavia or Serer.

Serbia, if you like it. Mr. President, you did a very interesting op-ed with Pramstel, Diorama from Rabinia, suggesting a new possibility for resolving this problem. And basically, our listeners looking at Serbia and looking at a map, will think, this is crazy. Why is Serbia not in the European Union? It's like this big hole, Bulgaria, Romania, which are further east or in the European Union, why is Serbia not great? I was interested in it because maybe this also resolves the Kosovo situation.

If you join the single market, join Schengen, maybe even if Kosovo did the same, Then the borders don't matter. Northern Mitrovica is more integrated. It's easier for people to move back and forth. Can you explain a bit about this idea? I can. Yeah. And it's very easy.

That was my idea with an open Balkan as well. That's what we wanted. And then it was interrupted because some European big powers were not having the steering wheel in their hands. But tell us more about the idea. I'll tell you. I'll tell you what is the overall idea. You know, Serbs lost 29% of its overall population in the First World War.

We started First World War two months before you started. And we were the country with speaking about proportional numbers, of course, with the biggest losses in the First World War. Us, then French, then all the others. Second World War. Only Serbs were, at the beginning of the war, anti-Nazi-oriented. Only Belgrade was bombed, as you know. All the others were receiving German tanks and German troops with flowers,

and greetings. Belgrade has never done it. And we paid a big price for that as well. And we are fed up with wars. My idea was, and I wanted to finish, and I still want to finish my mandate, my tenure, without having any wars. And we were accused by your press, by everybody,

in Great Britain thousands of times, in last four and a half years, since the war in Ukraine started, that small Serbia, those Russian puppets, we launch a war against someone in the Balkans in order to distract our attention from Russia and blah, blah, blah. And I was listening to that for more than four years.

And I have never heard a word of apology or whatever. Never ever. We want to keep peace and we invested into that peace. And my idea is, and our idea was, our common idea was, okay, open the Balkan area. For all of us, it doesn't matter entities, states, countries, whatever you call it. Everybody is free to move. Can you imagine how much easier would be for Bosniak from Novi Pazar to go to Sarajevo,

particularly when we finish this highway towards Bosnian border? Much easier. Two hours, two and a half hours, easy for them. No borders. For Bosniaks from Sarajevo to go to Novi Pazar. For Serb from Banaluka to come to Belgrade, for Serb from Bioneluka to come to Belgrade, for Serb from to come to Belgrade and vice versa. For Serbs in Kosovo's Mitrovica, they will always say we live in Serbia,

Pristina will always say they live in Kosovo, but they will easily go to Pristina, they will easily go to Belgrade, they will easily go to Herzegnovi wherever they want. That was an idea, and to connect us economically. And, you know, you have to work with the governments, with the local, regional, countries, entities, authorities, that's it. and no one will never ever put in jeopardy that kind of peace. And he was mentioning, if you don't recognize Kosovo's independence, you are not going to be a part of European Union.

Now, European Union is discussing full-fledged membership status for Ukraine. We have nothing against it, to be very frank, very open. But what would be the territory that would join Europe? But they're also saying... Does it mean that Europe will fight for that territory? Or there are still five... non-recognizers within European Union of Kosovo, what you're going to do with those countries because you will never ever be able to force Spain, never ever to recognize Kosovo's independence

because of their own interests. We had President Zelensky on the podcast recently, and he's very frustrated with Europe as well because he thinks he's making reform, is making progress, but he still has to go through a process. You have to go through processes. Okay. Now, I think Marta Kost, the commissioner, is interested in this idea of getting everybody in and then sort of making the process part of the accession, as it were. But at the same time, you have been...

We don't share the same views about the matter course, yes. I know that, but you... And the reason is because you've been criticized... At least it's not boring with you. You've been criticized for backsliding on media, rule of law, judiciary, and all this stuff. Okay, I agree with you. Okay. I agree with you.

Right. Just tell me, what is the backsliding with judiciary? I do understand. Now we are revoking something and we'll do our job. And I accept it. I cannot accept all the arguments, but okay, I accept it. Our fault. Tell me about media.

What did I do and what did we do regarding media? You have more medias against me here than against any other leader in the region. No. Yes. Really? Really? Okay. Let us analyze it.

No, let's not take too long on that. Okay. Okay. Okay. You know what you do? No, because you know. Okay. Okay.

Okay. You picked this. I think my understanding, the nature of this argument is that you would say that social media is free and quite aggressive against you. Your critics would say that there are television channels that are very much on your side, that the coverage during the election was predominantly on your side, that it's not necessarily formal control. It's also where the advertisers go and the influence put. I can not more agree with you at least on something. There are TV channels that are on my side, private channels. That state TV, now they say it's a modern language.

It's a public broadcaster. Yes, it's a public broadcaster. They're totally not on my side. And during this revolutionary times, they shifted themselves absolutely to the other side. Now they are relatively more objective, but they were absolutely on their side. So, Mr. President, let's... Let me tell you, that there are no small medias, there are mainstream medias that are very much against us, owned by big tycoons, which invested huge amounts of money in propaganda and lies against me.

And that's it. And you know, can you understand the argument where someone is casting spells against you, even adding that your father actually is not your father, because... your mother was a whore and she was cheating your alleged father with one Albanian, and that's why I knew so much pro-Albanian. Do you think people are... And it was not said on social media, of course, but mainstream media. That's terrible, and I agree that is terrible.

Do you think people were unfair to Viktor Orban? Do you think the West misunderstood him? I believe that people are always right. That's what I believe. I'm a friend of Victor Orban. I was, and I will always be. And why were you a friend? What did you like about him? I liked his openness.

We disagreed on many things. Let's say when he was bringing decisions against a central European university and something else, I was asking them to come to Belgrade. Because I wanted to have a diversity of universities and faculties. I had no problems with that. And I asked him. I was very open with him. He became a big world-known leader.

He started taking care about Global South, fighting against big guys in Europe and all over the world against American Biden administration, Kamala and all the others, which was not easy. He was courageous enough, but what was the real reason that we made a friendship was something that we did both and. He deserves everything to be praised. It's Hungarian-Serbian friendship. You both know, you both know how difficult that relationship used to be throughout a history. With the half-million Hungarians in Serbia? And beyond. And beyond.

But that's... 300,000, 300,000 Hungarians in Serbia, but anyway, big number of people. Now, we're brothers. We used to have... We used to have, why? I appreciate Victor Orban's role. Fifteen years ago, we had almost 1,000 incidents speaking about big brawls, clashes, physical clashes

between Hungarians and Serbs in Voivodina. Recent years, less than 30. 30 times less. 30 times less. Chappot, and thank you for that. Can you see? I'm going to have good relationship with Peter Madur. I'll do my best because this is,

something of the best interest for Serbian and Hungarian people. But I don't forget my friends and I never do. Could you see yourself ever developing that kind of relationship with QWERTY? So you say you've got this very difficult situation, you and Victor Orban get together and you develop a relationship and you fix it. Is it utterly impossible to think you might do that with Albin Qutti and Kosovo? I'll define my response in an easy way. There is no men in the world that can have that kind of relationship with Albuhri. Full stop. So this thing's going nowhere? Not a single one. Because?

You cannot even find that kind of relationship with Karen Pierce. With Karen Pierce. Okay. Okay. Okay. Mr. President, can I bring you back to this idea of the single market as a way of solving the European Union? I was always more interested in resolving internal issues, more focused on growth rate of Serbia, more focused on reindustrialization of Serbia, digitization of Serbia. This was my topic.

He became a big world leader. And then people in Hungary missed him. They missed his presence. No. They missed his presence before. Because he went away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he was tackling the other issues.

And I was saying that to him. And he said to me, Alexander, I'm experienced. I said, I believe you. You know better than I do. Did he think he was going to win? Did I think? Did he think? I believe that he trusted in his pollsters in a way, although he was saying to me that it was neck to neck,

but two days after, it was not an easy conversation between two of us because it was emotional one. And we were speaking. It was a relatively long telephone conversation, open line. But he said to me, whatever you were saying to me, you were right. And there was something else. As a lousy chess player, I was always more prudent and more cautious and less optimistic than he was. This is my nature. I'm always more prudent and more cautious.

That's why I'm avoiding any kind of clashes. Even with the small guys, even with take care of your things, of your job, then go somewhere else. Mr. President, we are more, as you know, on the Kamala Harris side of politics. But maybe you can explain to us, what is it do you think that liberals like us don't understand about what Victor Orban was trying to say or what Donald Trump is trying to do? What is the case for the more right-wing style of politics? I'll be very honest. I cannot justify every single move of Donald Trump. But if you ask me whether I do understand American people that voted for Donald Trump, yes. Tell us about it.

If I were American would have voted for Donald Trump. And you are now in a country where he used to have by far the highest level of popularity in an entire world apart from the United States. No, much bigger than in the United States. It was 74, 75% of popularity. Now it's lower. Now it's lower. But many other world leaders. And why do they like him?

What do they like about him? And about that politics that he and Orban represent. First of all, people in Serbia, as I told you, they hate Clinton administration because of 1999 and 2008 Democrats. These are historical reasons. Then people here are more conservative. If you see my two older cats, my son and my daughter, they are totally different. One would always belong as a conservative, as a religious guy, to Trump people.

My daughter, although she is not lesbian, She supports all LGBT rights, all these alleged or real liberal values and everything else. But people in Serbia are mainly conservative, traditional people, many of them religious people, not only Orthodox people, but Muslim people. Is he Trump's religious? No, but he was speaking about family values. He was speaking something against transgender or whatever else, and people here like that. These were the main reasons at the end.

They expected to get, people were jubilant to see changes in the United States to find a friend in Washington after so many years. And they were, you know, like cravingly trying to find a sufficient reason to say, okay, it's not America that we are fighting against, you know, it's, it was that administration. We have nothing against American people, the United States of America. We love that country. And this was the reason why Trump got such a huge popularity here. Maybe to come back to this.

I mean, we feel strongly that because of what America is now demonstrating to the world, trying to take Greenland, this operation in Iran. Like you tried to get Kosovo together with them. We didn't try to take Kosovo as our territory. The United States was trying to take Kosovo. Greenland as their territory. They're trying to annex the territory. But you try to do it eight years after. After you, as Alistair said, won the war. We're not trying to annex territory to our own country. We're not to expand. But to separate it from the other countries.

That's a slightly separate question, right? No, no, I think. Listen, we should come back and do a whole series by Kosovo. It's pretty much the same. Okay. So you see, you see. Did you defend Trump on Greenland? You think the United States taking Greenland is correct? I'm not. I'm not even defending, I'm not even defending violation of international public law on Iran. Although I believe that I'm a big friend of Israel. I believe so. The only flag that was hoisted here in front of this presidency, apart from Serbian flags,

and once European Union flag was Jewish flag, I cannot justify absolutely everything. But whether I'm still a friend of Israel, yes, I am. But you also recognize the Palestinian state? Yes, but also I cannot say that it's not a violation of international public law when you start attacking a sovereign country like Iran. To develop this, we assume that... We have principles, unlike you, Alistair, from time to time. As the world reconfigures, our instinct is that the future of European countries

is a deeper integration with Europe and the European Union. Yes. As opposed to the United States. We cannot rely on the United States in the way that we have for the last 70 years. I believe that we reached the point of no return. What I believe that Americans will do in the future, this is my guess and they are smart and diligent people as you know

and they will try to build their structures in Europe now they Trump reasonably will try to escape from further conflicts in Iran that will end one important era but will bring us to very complicated and very complex relationship all over the world and I believe that United States

States and their politicians, it doesn't matter. You're going to see that. It's not going to be totally changed, even when Democrats come to power, if they come to power, because there are still two and a half years. But what I believe that will happen, I believe that American will build its own structure, taking five to ten countries in Europe, mainly in East Europe, under not their control but with the predominant influence

of the United States of America creating any issues for the European Union and that's why I don't understand European Union why those guys did not bring so far strategic decisions based even on that letter that was signed by Edirama and myself I don't get to tell you the truth because all the other decisions were political in the past

and we were not asking for Vito Wright We were not asking for commissioners. We were not asking even for bigger fundings. Nothing. So, Mr. President, to summarize, your idea is that by pushing ahead with Serbia, Albania, and presumably others, joining the single market. All the other. All the others, yes. Joining the single market.

Because without all the others, it has no sense. You're bringing, I don't know, Montenegro and Moldova to Europe without Serbia. What's the sense? Yeah. Bring them all into the single market. And one of the reasons strategically to do this is that if it doesn't, you know, happen, it provides an opportunity for the US to try to pull off the Eastern European countries away from the Western Europe.

Yes, not only some countries here, but if I were them, would have done the same. Smart people would have done it. And then they can speak to one structure in Poland, they are deeply divided, another structure in Romania, another structure in Bulgaria. It's not that easy for Europeans to keep control if Americans would like to make it differently. Do you think one of the worries in Europe, in the European Union, is that what you and Eddie put forward was a way of saying we can get in

without doing all the things that Europe is asking us to do? No. You don't think that's their suspicion? No. I don't want to be rude. I am arrogant and impudent from time to time, as you know, dear Alistair and dear Rory, but I don't think so. when it was 2004, I believe, when Romania and Bulgaria joined the European Union, were they fulfilling all requirements, all demands, even today?

Do you think any of the big powers in Europe actually want enlargement to continue? If they don't, they're making a big strategic mistake. Do you think they do want it to continue? I hope so. I hope that there are some understandings for the first time. after many years in Italy, France and Germany. That's what I believe. But I'm not sure about it. President Ruchich, Roryi, quick break, back for more.

Help us understand your position in relation to Russia. How should Europe think about Russia? How should the United States think about Russia? What is the strategic vision for the West? You were always, you were presenting yourself as a beacon of democracy. see, Russia was a beacon of evil, and that's it, you know, which is not true. Explain that... Which is not true.

There are nuances. There are many gray nuances. It's not everything that is black and white. But put that aside, what I was saying to everybody. Broadly speaking, we are more democratic than Russia, right? Okay. I mean, the gray in nuances, but Putin is running in an autocratic state. There are different cultures.

There are different traditions. There are different worlds at the end. Russia is not a part of European Union. At least you used to be a part of European Union, but you were not satisfied and you left, as you know, and you are still fostering us to go there. And we listen to you and we are on that path. We would also like to rejoin the European Union.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can be part of your project. Yeah, but it's late to remorse on something that you have already done. Anyway, you were always speaking about Serbia that was a Russian puppet. We've never said that. Never said that. And also, I would argue,

after it was interesting, in my introduction I pointed out, you've actually provided a lot of munitions to Ukraine, but for some reason you don't want to talk about it. No, I did not. I was doing my job, selling our ammunition to different countries because we need to earn money

and we need to feed our workers. And then we discussed that with Russians. They attacked me face to face. They said to me this and that and I said to them what I thought and what I had to say. And I said it in a very open

transparent and sincere way. I'm praising you to what you did. I'm not going to discuss it. No, no. I'm not going to discuss it because what was said on a closed meetings, I'm not going to expose it. But I had an answer for them. But let me tell you this. You didn't see that's backing

in Ukraine. No, we were back. all humanitarian efforts in Ukraine, we were sending money, we were sending humanitarian support and everything else. Armament and ordnance we didn't sell to any of warring factions. This is our official stance and that's it. Speaking about... So the Americans aren't a war infection? No.

We had long-term agreements with Americans for 25 years. Okay. Prisiervi Partizan, you know, they were selling ammunition for 25 years to United States of America, for 25 years, let's say. But we were selling, let's say, to some African countries that were re-exporting that to Ukraine. We were selling to Russians were very angry because we sold many things to Bulgaria, then to Bosnia and Herzegovina. And that was my decision to sell it to Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's why we've never said your Putin's paper. what Rory's trying to find that is what your relationship is.

Our relationship is we are traditional friends, we have good relationship with them, but we are a sovereign nation and we are an independent country and we are Serbs. We are not small Russians, we are not small Ukrainians, we are just Serbs. Where you go to the May 9th ceremony this year? I haven't decided yet, but I was not. there last year. And just let me tell you this, dear Rory. And people were always exaggerating about it, about Russia's influence, everything.

Okay, we have good relationship. They can always give me a call. I can give them a call. And I believe that's helpful always. But the real issue is, when I became the prime minister, Russia was partner number two. Italy was number one.

Bosnia and Herzegovina was number three. Now, economic partner number one by far is Germany. Number two is China. Russia is number 11. Serbia has changed. It's not about political approaches. It's about economy. It's about economy.

It's about re-industrialization of the country. It's about a country that progressed so much that now we have more than 2 billion of trade exchange with Poland, Czech Republic, Slovak, Republic, Hungary, Romania, and all those in a way surrounding EU countries, which is a big, big, big change. It has never ever been the case before. China. Where do you think strategically Europe, Serbia should position itself in relation to China? How should we think about the Chinese relationship in five years, ten years? China is, I know that you're listening to Lika Chang's speech from 2015 or 2016 in Munich conference.

He was saying, in a relatively naive way, but very smart way, he was saying, you know, China just want to renew and to revive something that was regular to become number one power of the world. And then Angela Merkel replied to that saying, who told you so, that it was a regular situation? And she got a big applause. But China showed itself as a very serious state, very responsible state on a world political stage, a country that brings stability, and that country, they're so successful, they're overtaking everybody, including the United States of America. Even combining softwares and hardwheres, they're ahead.

AI and softwares, they're neck-to-neck with Americans. whether you're going to buy Chinese hybrid or electric vehicle or European. Most of the people just in five years in Europe will pick Chinese hybrid and electric vehicles. I get the feeling watching some of the things you said about China and the number of times you've visited China that you've got... I'm a big admirer of their success. Yes, and I don't hide it. They are a dictatorship, okay. Put that to one side.

They have... They have a different system. You cannot impose your values and your thoughts to everybody else in the world. I'm not trying to do that. No, you have to observe. You have to respect someone else's customs, tradition. You know, they have. I can do that.

I was making a different point. I was going to say, put that to one side. What is it? I'm not going to put that on that side. Don't mention it. Okay. Okay. What is it that they do that you admire so much?

I'll tell you. I admire. their diligence, their devotion. I admire something they have, and we lost. We, Europeans, we lost. It's an Iowa tiger. They're cravingly trying to overtake United States of America. We are lagging behind.

Take the best European car companies. There, at least, we know that. People, ordinary people, they don't know it because they cannot find that information in any of our papers. We are lagging behind Chinese on technological level regarding hybrid machines, not combustion engine, three to four years, at least. And you believe that we are going to close that gap in a years to come?

No, the gap will become bigger because they have an eye of a tiger. They are ready to work not only eight hours, but 10 or 12 hours. They have long-term targets, long-term aims. what we do, how does it look our working day? We work for two or three hours. Everything else belong to digital laziness

and complaining against our bosses against... So we've lost our will to win. Do you think it would be good if the China did overtake the United States? I cannot discuss that I'm not that smart. I'm just saying what I see today. I'm not a prophet, not a visionary person. But what I'm doing,

like in chess, like in sports, I can put pieces together, I can analyze the situation. And you definitely made an early big bet on China, that's for sure. And it helps a little bit. I know you don't like taking these compliments. Let me ask you this. Your constitution, you can only serve two terms

and you're heading to the 10th year of your presence. And your papers were saying that I was going. Stop going about my papers. I don't even read our papers. I still understand a bit of English. Yes. That's how I read it. And what are they saying? Yes, they were saying tens of times that Wuchich was preparing himself and preparing the ground for changing the constitution because he'll never leave this presidential palace.

I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that you're saying. Okay, let me ask the question. You didn't read. The question is whether you might do a Putin-Medvedev situation where you actually go back to being prime minister again, Somebody like Anna Barnabitch becomes the president and you stay part of the scene. You're still very young. You're a lot younger than I am. It's not about someone's age. I still have more energy and bigger enthusiasm than most of my opponents and even most of people that are surrounding me. But I'll be very honest with you.

Now we are doing polls. All the polls, all different. surveys, all focus groups, all crisis groups, everything, in order to see whether there are other candidates able to beat the candidates that are coming from the opposition. Other people, other than you? Yes. For President and Prime Minister? I cannot candidate myself for the President.

No, I know, so for Prime Minister? Because I'm not going to violate our constitutional regulations. I'm now scrutinizing possibility for candidating some of the President. someone else on parliamentarian list in order to be the new prime minister. We'll see whether there is possibility to secure our legacy in that way or not. If there isn't, would you stand? I'll do that. But the problem that I have today is that, and I cannot hide it, and it's not fair towards my people,

if I won't be able to find that energy, I say to my people, not fit for the job. Because you know what I passed in last 14 years? You know how difficult that was for you. You're not an easy time, a bit smaller period of time. And you just put yourself into my shoes in last 12, 13, 14 months. What I passed through. It's something that no other leaders have been going through. You're talking about Novicead?

You're talking about Trump Kushner. about everything. I'm talking about all the attempts to overthrow me, mainly finance from outside. Also, it was partly genuine, no doubt. But you're still the most powerful person in Serbia by a mile. And the most popular. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but... So this is back to the difference between you and Orban, that you're just looking on the dark side. Maybe you're right, but the real issue is that I want to see Wuchich from... level of energy which I had

in 2017, 2019, even 2020. But you're more than 20 years younger than Donald Trump. I think you do. I'm almost 10 years younger than that young candidate of the students, you know. So what? I'm telling you, it's not about

someone's ages. If I will feel fit, then I might go. If not, I'll be very honest and very sincere with my people. Because at the end, all the other guys from the opposition would be jubilant

would be jubilant just not to see my name on the list. My final question. Let's say you remain in politics, you become prime minister or you remain in influential. What is your vision that you would drive through in terms of Europe? And what is your vision in terms of what you would drive

through inside Serbia? And in particular, what is the long-term post-vuchich vision? What is the kind of democracy that you imagine Serbia becoming. You asked me a question that goes in depth of our society. I'll tell you something else before that. I believe that spending a few hours in Belgrade,

you were able, dear Alistair, to see a totally different city. From the last time I was here. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Totally different city. Absolutely everything has changed. We changed the face of this country. Everything's different.

This country is 61% of overall Western Balkan FDI attraction. This country is 50% of overall Western Balkan's GDP. This country is 55% of overall Western Balkans export. This country, when I became the Prime Minister, used to have public debt to GDP ratio, 79%. Today is 41% just for you to know. Every salary used to be 329 euros today is. 1,057. I believe significant change. We built more highways, more motorways than it was built in

last 60 years. This will remain my legacy. What I believe, speaking about structural reforms, democracy, Europe, I think that we can become a part of Europe in a way that we proposed. Everything else, countries will never agree upon. And this is the only rational, and I believe the only possible way, being a part of Europe, which we want to be. If you ask me whether I would like to be a full-flat member state, yeah, but that is not going to happen that easy

because of all these preterns that we already discussed. Yes. Let us do this. Let us do this. And then, at the end, even if I become the prime minister even if I go for that which is not certain yet

otherwise would have already announced that even if it happens that would be my last tenure I will say that in advance like Angela Merkel used to say that because you have to understand that people become fed up with you. It doesn't matter whether you did something wrong or not

nobody cares about it they're fed up with you they just want to change something in their life. They went up with the same face, staring at that for 14 years. Yeah, and you're on the TV a lot. It's part of your job. It's not criticism. No, no, no. But, you know, I was thinking about it thousands of times. And Edirama is always making a joke about it. He prefers social networks. Now Wuchich has to refer to his Serbian citizens. He didn't do it twice today. He now needs to do it and that's it, you know.

But if I was not doing that, then you would say you're an arrogant bastard that they didn't want to show any kind of care for his own people. You don't explain anything to your people. You don't justify your position, your stances and everything else. It's always easy to criticize and to spit on someone. If that was not done that way, you would criticize it from the other side. Now, listen, Susanna is giving me the evil eye and you've got to go in a visit. my very final question. We normally talk a lot with our guests

about their childhood and their upbringing. How serious a football hooligan were you? I was a big football fan. Yeah, I'm a big football fan. But were you also? I was partly a football hooligan, you know. Partly a hooligan. Yes.

Was arrested in different parts of whom. I was never arrested. No, I was not. I was watching football when there was a lot of violence around football. So it was impossible not to get involved in it. You went looking for it. And you got arrested many times. Yes.

You're more of a hooligan than him. Yeah, much more. Much more. Much more. Yes. But, you know. Is football still as political here? Is it still as political?

We are passionate people. We are ardent people here. We have two big teams or, yeah, Red Star and partisan, as you know. And it's a big rivalry like United and City, or even bigger, like. Celsius. Like, like Liverpool, Leverton. No, that's not. Seltzer Rangers.

Burnley Blackburn, I think is probably the best. Burnley Blackburn. Yeah. He's serious. He knows. Of course I know it was like Litz Millwall before you know. Did you make he's a big Burnley fan? He knows a lot about me.

Anyways, lovely to see you again. It's good to see you always and please come more often to serve you. Okay. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

So Rory, we've met President Wuchitchitch, me for the, Me for the, I don't know how many time. And me for the first time. And what do you make of it? Well, it's extraordinary. I mean, first thing I think to explain to the viewers and listeners is we're in the presidential palace, which is, of course, much, much grander than Downing Street. It's so much grander than Downey Street.

And we walked past all those glass cabinets, which were full of what? They were full of mainly weapons that had been given to him by other leaders, swords, and there were a couple of guns from Vladimir Putin. Quite interesting. So the Russians are great ones for giving semi-automatic weapons, 19th century rifles, cutlasses. But interestingly, the Azerbaijani's, the Czechs, give little handguns. There's a lot of that. There's some beautiful icons down there. Beautiful icons as well. So a long sense of martial history, Serbian Orthodox history. Yeah. And we're in the library with a table, which is a chessboard,

because he is actually... A very serious chess player. Well, people say he's a very, very good chess player. He was saying he was very average, but... Yeah. Well, what he actually said is that he won the Belgrade parish level and never quite made it to the master's level. So it'd be interesting to play Richard Reeves, of course, very serious, Jasper. Yeah. Listen, I think more seriously, he is a figure who is very popular with some Serbs and very, very unpopular with other Serbs. So when people are listening, I hope they will feel that we gave him opportunities to talk,

that it was a generous interview. There will be service from the opposition who will be very angry. They will feel that we should have been much tougher on authoritarianism, on all the allegations around the judiciary, the media. And of course, if you are our friends. friend Alvin Korti listening, you'll be very cross that we didn't challenge more strongly on Kosovo. How do you think about this question of what happens when you interview somebody who's a genuinely controversial figure with a very, very difficult past?

Well, put it this way. All political leaders have some people who love them and some people who hate them. He is, as I said at the end, by some distance, the most popular politician in Serbia. My hunch is for all that, you know, I think genuine sort of... Well, he's basically saying he's going to run to be promised. I think he's going to run to be prime minister, and that means that he stays basically very, very powerful. Because, of course, as I understand the Serbian constitution, the prime minister used to be the most powerful position in the country when he had it, has become the president. I wonder if it won't go back.

You're right, there's some people maybe think we didn't push him hard enough and this and that, but what he's very, very good at, we could have spent the whole 50 minutes, whatever it was, just revisiting arguments that we had during the Kosovo war. And I think a lot of our listeners and viewers would have got very fed up. He's not going to give ground on that. I'm not going to give ground in terms of us thinking that it was legal, we were doing the right thing. But that is for the past. I thought he was much more aggressive on Europe than I thought he would be. I wondered whether part of the reason for him wanting to do the interview or agreeing to do the interview was actually to say, you know, I'm going to be a bit nicer about Europe. But no, he was very, you know, we've given you an idea.

It's a good idea. If you don't take it, you're making the big mistake. In a way, we need to develop it more because for those of us who believe, certainly you and I do, that Europe now needs to be the other corner of the global square, this whole question of how you get these countries which are right in the heart of Europe, which are a sort of hole in the donut of Europe now. Yeah. You know, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Kosovo, et cetera, into the European Union is completely

vital. And so he's come up with this very interesting proposal, which I think I'm fully in favor of, which is let's push for a single market solution, and that will give them access to the European markets, free movement of people, no borders. So what he was describing was essentially something that felt a little bit like the Good Friday Agreement in relation to Kosovo. Once the border disappears, as he points out, the Kosovo-Ravannian population can very much feel there in Kosovo. The Serbian population, North Mitribica, northern Kosovo, can feel their part of Serbia, but it doesn't matter. Not a border, right?

And the fact that he did it with Eddie Rahma, the primness of Albania was... But the big disagreement, I guess, in that is presumably with Marta Koss and others in the European Union, who actually imagine it the other way around. They would rather have full European Union membership and then catch up on the conditions rather than single market membership, delaying the EU membership. Although when I went to Ukraine with Marta Koss, I got the feeling that she does feel something has to give, but she feels to get the member states to allow something to give, she has to have more sense of a buy-in for the processes.

And she was clear with that with Zelensky as well. But listen, I think what he was saying as well about, you know, I guess if you take out all our spat over Kosovo, what he was talking about there, I think, is a small-ish, a small country, small, medium-sized country like Serbia, working out its place in the world at a time of monumental geopolitical change. And he was basically saying America is always going to be important, but we've got our doubts. He was saying, Russia, you guys have got a very, very narrow

lens through which you look. We're trying to broaden that lens. And he was basically saying about China, if you don't recognize that this is where the future is coming from, you're in trouble. You know, it's at least the vision of your place in the world. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, it's a very interesting vision because certainly from the US point of view, they would be very uncomfortable with their talk about China. I mean, the one thing that most of the Democrats and Republicans agree on is that China is a threat and a peer competitor. The one thing that the British rights agrees on, you see this in Boris Johnson's op-eds and things, that if you have to choose, you have to choose the US against China, because China is seen as a dictatorial regime

that's destroying. And he just, he wanted to push that one's way. I also thought that, even though it will irritate some people, I thought it was good actually to hear him give the nationalist narrative, remind people that this is actually genuinely what a nationalist politician. And to speak positive about Orban, which is... In the Balkan's things. Never been done on the racist politics before. Positive about Orban, relatively positive about Russia, challenging ideas of liberal democracy,

challenging liberal interventions, standing up... Was he speaking to your inner conservative? No, I mean, I didn't think we were speaking my own conservative, but I think it's really useful whenever we feel we're in a bubble to be reminded that there is a whole world out there of people who he was relatively gently actually explaining how a complete,

radically different worldview that we maybe don't give enough space to. I had an irony, though, that on his desk, he had the plays of Alexander Popovich, which I thought was an extraordinary thing to do. Alexander Popovich is basically, you could argue, as a sort of satirist of the current Serbian regime. He actually writes about the communist period, but he's writing about wily politicians who change their political views. He writes about bureaucrats, propagandists, use of the language.

He's basically a satirist of, you could argue, of the contemporary political scene. And yet it was sitting on his desk. I don't know whether he reads Alexander Popovich, but it would be a bit like, I don't know, you know, Nigel Farage having George Orwell on his desk. It's a very sort of discordant thing. Is it, is he doing it ironically? Is he doing it without being conscious of the criticisms? Might it be, Roy, that this is a room that they use for interviews and they've just put a few books

on the desk? I don't know. I don't know. But it was interesting at the end. You wouldn't let me ask him about it. So we will never know. You'd probably just whatever you want, but I think if we're, I'd rather have talked about China and Russia than the books on his desk. Interesting, though it is.

But it was interesting at the end, after we'd stop filming, when he started then to give us a long reading list about books about Serbian history and Serbian literature that we should read. Which again is very striking. It's something that the British basically suffer from historical amnesia. We have no real memory of what happened in 1997, let alone in 1890s. I remember in 1997. Whereas Serbia, you know, really does. want to think about what the British did in relation to the Ottomans in the mid-19th century, which really is, doesn't feature enough.

But I'm always, it's not that I'm impressed by meeting politicians who read lots of books, but I'm always unimpressed by politicians who don't. I think that, you know, I know how busy politics is, but if you don't broaden your mind by reading, particularly about history of politics, then I think you're missing on a big trick. Now, the biggest thing that you achieve for which congratulations is that at the end, And he said that he would agree to do an interview with the two of us and Albin Korti. Which would be, I think would be only their second. Would be unbelievable.

So let's try to make that happen. We'd definitely try to. If Albin Kourt is listening or his people are listening, we said at the end, listen, this cost of everything, you've got to at least make an effort. We've talked to Albin Korti on the podcast. We found him fairly reasonable. Why can't we come back and get the two of you together? And he said, I'd be happy with that.

So, Albin, if you're listening, let's try it. And let's try and disagree agreeably. Do you think we disagreed agreeably on Kosovo? Was that okay? Yeah. Yeah, we did. He got a bit. He got a bit snarkly.

Listen, there's a whole series of bits of background, which probably is worth explaining. So he is essentially saying that Britain, in particular, you know, David Cameron did a lot of this. British intelligence did a lot of this. Was saying that Serbia was trying to destabilize more than Kosovo. And he said it didn't happen. Actually, there were some very disturbing movements around police stations, weapons,

paramilitaries. it's a very tense, difficult situation. But he is correct. So far, peace is held. And we've got to lean in to the optimistic reading. And the optimistic reading would be that he's been on a huge journey. He's changed his political positions a number of times. And if we can push it in a pro-European position, that would be great.

Final one for me there. He had this very interesting narrative that we've heard less about, which was a sort of implicit threat to Europe, which is, if you don't push ahead with enlargement. In Mido off. Eastern Europe will start playing. playing footsie with the more right-wing version of the United States. So the idea would be the Law and Justice Party in Poland, the more populace. But particularly he said the US are really going to be able to play with the populace in Romania, Bulgaria. That is part of the US strategy.

The reason they were so invested in Orbán's election, I don't know whether they'll do the same here, but Bulgaria as well. Germany, France, and it's obvious. UK, it's kind of obvious what they're trying to do. anyway, look, I thought it was really interesting. I think a lot of, I think you're right, some people would have expected us to sort of want to just come and beat him up. I think that was pretty pointless. I thought he made some really interesting observations

about the state of the world and Serbia's place within it, which ultimately is kind of his job. Yeah, and interesting, I always feel when we interview presence of Serbia, Kosovo, Greece, Cyprus, even Spain, how actually much more confident they are. are speaking about the geopolitical frame in the world order than somebody like Kirstammer. Now that may be that a smaller country feels freer to think big thoughts. Or maybe that just you can't get through a whole episode without actually criticizing Kirstarmer.

It might be that too. It might be that too, yeah, without doing my famous impression of Kirstar. Yeah, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Oh, you can if you want. But anyway, thank you very much. See you soon. Take care.