The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 2: Marina Litvinenko: Fighting Putin's poison

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Alexander Litvinenko: the man who solved his own murder after being poisoned by the Russian State in London. Marina, his widow, battled for justice successfully in both a UK public enquiry and a case at the European Court of Human Rights. As a leading critic of Vladimir Putin's regime, 'mafia state' and invasion of Ukraine - Marina sat down with Alastair to discuss Alexander's murder, her fight for justice, being in Ukraine when Russia invaded last February, and how the Kremlin tried to conscript her son for the war in Ukraine. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly TRIP newsletter, join the TRIP Plus Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [e-mail] Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the rest is politics.com. Hello and welcome to leading with me, Alecester Campbell. And me, Rory Stewart. Looking forward to this week's episode with Marina Litvinenko, who's the widow of the murdered Alexander Litvinenko. Now, I'm sure that you all remember the front page, The Guardian, late 2006. The man, murdered by the Russian government, key witness in his own murder. And so can you tell us a little about what you were doing in 2006 this time? Do you remember that moment? I do remember it. Tony was still

Prime Minister. I'd left but was kind of, you know, in and out. We had a very different relationship back then to the one that we have now with Russia. And Marina pushes me on that in the interview. She reminds me of the times when we were, you know, a lot closer, shall we say, to the Putin regime. I really, really enjoy talking to Maria Lovinaenko, I think to go through what she's gone through. It's horrifying. Just to remind people who are coming into it, her husband was poisoned with polonium. I mean, this incredibly sort of super sinister, dramatic method of killing an ex-KGB officer done by revenge, by the Russian security service, with sort of prelude to Salisbury where they tried to use radioactive substances again. And then you've had the chance

to sit down and talk to her, and I'm really looking forward to hearing this conversation. Yeah, so well, here it is. It's the conversation that I had while Rory was away on his travel somewhere, and I hope you do enjoy it, Rory. And more importantly, I hope that our listeners enjoy it. So welcome to a very special guest, Marina Litvinenko, widow of Alexander Litvinenko, killed by the Putin regime. So my first question, actually, Marina,

if I say the name Andrei Lugovoy, just tell our listeners who that is. and then I'll tell our listeners what he's done recently. Andrea Lugavoy from me is the murder of my husband. And because of that, he was granted to be a member of Russian parliament. And I believe when Putin's regime will collapse, he would be taking for justice to London. So you still think that can happen?

Because I'm very optimistic person of what helped me almost for 10 years to get kind of justice here in London, I believe one day I will have a proper justice. The reason I mentioned Lugavoy as well, he's as you say, he's now a member of the Duma. And he did a TV interview recently, which I watched the other day, which was, I don't if you saw it, but it was chilling even for me. So what it was like for you, I don't know. And he said to Zelensky, president of Ukraine, you will be killed, you'll be the first

to the gallows. If anyone damages the Russian state, they will be exterminated. He then said that Zelensky should read a book by Pavel Sudo Platov, who was an agent who killed Trotsky in Mexico. So I guess my question is, Alexander must have known that that is the sort of person he was dealing with when he started to call out the Putin regime. So wasn't he scared the whole time that he was going to be killed? And weren't you scared on his behalf? It's very interesting question because Lugawa wasn't like that in 2006 or even before. he developed this quality as a monster and cold blood killer just now or after he was pronounced as a murder of Alexander Litvinenko.

And then in 2006, he was a former employee of Boris Beresovsky. He was a head of security for TV channel and former KGB worker, but even not as an agent. Does Alexander work with him? Because Alexander, of course, was a Russian agent as well. But they never worked together. Okay. They've been a different department. I would say my husband did real work on the ground.

But Lugavoy was as a security guy. He looked after a very prominent figure as then Prime Minister Gaidar or some others. And when he retired, he receives his job with Boris Beresowski as the head of security of this TV channel. I believe because of his close relationship to Boris Berizovsky, he'd been used to approach Sasha Litvinenko. And it looked like they both might be interested to do business together. Sasha's then in 2005, 2006. Sasha is Alexander.

We would call him Sasha. Yes, yes, Alexander, my husband, Sasha. He tried to build his own business here in London. And he needed some sources in Russia. Because his job was mostly about private investigation for future business. If somebody from Russia would like to do business in UK or in Europe, you need to know who you're doing business with. So he met him. Was it three times before he killed him? Yes. First met, it was a birthday party of Boris Beresowski. Everybody were there.

And Lugabe we were sitting in the same table. And of course it was normal conversation for what are you doing. It looked like a former colleagues, but again, they've never been colleagues. And after they discussed to meet again in London and again, and this was process to start maybe a business together. So Alexander wasn't suspicious that this guy was trying to kill him. Of course, not killing, but I can't say he could trust him for 100%. But I think he wanted, recruited him and to came,

to business together and to feel he may be more on this side. And this was for Sasha like an interesting game, how he can be able to convert a Lugovoid. Is that the intelligent agent in him? It looked like, yes. Yeah, yeah. And so then when he was at the Millennium Hotel and he was poisoned, just talk us through that process of what happened from that moment

to then his death. and just from your perspective, what you were seeing and what you were feeling and through that time. I met Lugawa just once during this Boris Beresowski birthday party. And then I only heard from Sasha. He's coming to London. He's going to meet him. And I remember Lugavu was looking for property to buy in London. And he wanted to set up business in London and in Russia.

Another part of his business was a while. He traveled to Argentina and he supplied Russia with this Argentinian. While being a Russian agent. Yes. Okay. Yes. And even more, Lugavu had the history being in prison just in 2000. Agently, he helped form a business partner of Boris Beresowski, Nigelike Glushkov.

I would like to say Nikolai Glushkov was killed. He was killed in 2018, just a few days. after Scripal in Salisbury were attempted to poison. It was almost the same time. How Andrea Lugavoie, after released from prison, received a grant, so it's a million dollars to set up his security company? So hold on. You've got this guy who you know is involved with the Putin regime.

Alexander's here in London, and he's the guy who's called out Putin as running a mafia state, He's accused him of being a murderer, a paedophile. He said all sorts of things about Putin, and yet he's still tempted to go into business with this guy who must have aroused suspicions in him. From my point of view, Sasha has a very experienced officer,

but of course not like intelligent service officer. He was mostly working like insight, internal. Yeah. And he saw Lugavoy as a person who is not 100% of Putin agent. And Lugavoy looked as a person who loves money. And making this negotiation might possibly take him to his side. And at this point, how closely was Alexander working with the British intelligence agencies? Because, of course, when your worldview is, as I described it, as Lugovoire said recently on television,

if you damage, try to damage the Russian state, you will be exterminated. If that's the worldview of Putin and the people operating for him, Alexander must have known he was at massive risk. Of course, I knew he's in risk from very beginning when we escaped from Russia. He was not paranoid about security, but he always tried to monitor it or situation and started his consulting job with an intelligent service here in UK and then to Spanish intelligence service. I think it was like natural

because Sasha knew all about this criminality, all these people connecting to Russian government. Because his speciality was organized crime, wasn't it? Absolutely. He knew all this from inside. And his knowledge was so important and here and Spain and what he believed to all part of Europe.

And his consulting job was accepted, and he started to do this. It was almost an accident that you ended up in Britain, wasn't it? Because he tried to get asylum with the Americans in Istanbul. Yes. And they turned him down. And then you booked a flight back to Moscow via Heathrow. Yes.

And then you applied for asylum at Heathrow. So why did the Americans say no and the Brit said yes? I'll tell you even more if you like it. Or maybe you don't like it. But when Sash was waiting for his travel document in Georgia, he'd get out from Russia to Georgia. It was easier because he couldn't get out from Russia anyway. I was at the same time in Spain, and we still discussed what we're going to do,

because, of course, I were not planning to get out from Russia at all. But I was already with our son, with Anatoly, six years old. Sasha was waiting for his travel document. And people here in London, like Vladimir Bukovsky, Oleg Gordievsky, try to help Sasha. from here to apply maybe to get Sasha and his family directly to London. But who was the prime minister then? Oh, Tony Blair?

Exactly. And said no? And said no. Okay. We don't need this mess with Vladimir Putin. Yeah. And this was 2000. Everything looks very good, very promising.

Better than it does now, for sure. Totally Blair was the first politician in a world who introduced Vladimir Putin. to this international club. He came to London or not to San Peter's before he was president. To San Peter's work. I think you've been there too. I was. Yes.

And how we can say how all the world was foolish about Putin. Yes, it was very difficult to believe one day he became who he is now. And Sashvo said no. And why we couldn't go legally, directly to UK. And then

was the help from Alexander Goldfarb. He's his advisor for Boris Berizowski who tried to get us out from Russia to bring us to America. And our meeting in Ankara with authorities in the American embassy wasn't

successful. It's only proof Sasha never been spied. Only secret he could say to American weapon missile was with use against former Chechen president Jahad Dudaev and somebody sold it to Russian to kill

Jahad Duhyv and he knew who did it. And he gives this information to American, but they said, it's okay. So they wouldn't take them. So why, when you got to Heathrow, how did you manage to get asylum here? After that, we've been all nervous, what to do next? And Alex Goldfar, our friend, he said, if you're going to direct it to America, you would be arrested and you're going to immigration prison. I said, no way.

I don't want to separate with my son. And he said, okay, we have a lawyer. We can ask this lawyer to meet us. in the heat row, and we will do step by step to apply for this. It looked like accidentally. Yeah, yeah, and you got it. Yes, I really grateful. And I remember when Sasha saying,

we need to be thanks to our queen, now we are in a kingdom, now we're in an island, and we feel safe. Of course it was a joke, but he always wanted to cheer up me to say, Marina, you should not worry. Of course, we cut our life completely.

We left behind our families, our parents. But you do this for our son, who will grow up in freedom, independent country. So you stayed here. Where's your kind of sense of identity now? What do you feel in yourself you are? I'm a Russian, and I would like all Russian, even living abroad, to feel Russian, but to accept any place where they do live.

I really are accepting everything that I have here in UK. I might criticize, but it's normal. You might be, don't like it. But I was a privilege when you are in the middle of your 30s and when you think you know everything to become a child again. I need to learn language. I've never spoke English. I built my new friendship with people. And I think it's give me some kind of boost to become even younger again.

And when I saw my husband, Alexander, writing and again, meeting different people. I saw how it's good for him. As any woman who has a family, I was just very happy to keep this family alive. And when he was in hospital, what point did you realize that he was going to die? I have not point.

Only one moment when Sasha became more, like rapidly worse, I had just one second. if Sasha will die. And after that, I was crying. I saw Sasha is fighting for his life. He tried to make everything what he could say to police, because police investigation already started.

And I was so angry with myself, how you can think he will die. He's fighting. You should not even believe he might die. His first stroke happened night before he died. And I saw he already was a support machine. But I saw he's alive. I saw he's alive and he's still fighting. But when it finally happened next night,

it was only when I accepted he died. During that period, did you feel, you know, he saw he was ill, he went to hospital, they weren't quite sure what was going on. I think he went home for a while, then went back, and ended up in intensive care. And that image that, I think when you mentioned Likvinenko,

people probably do think of that image of him lying in bed, the green top, the monitors on his chest, completely bald. Did you feel that you were getting all the support that you needed? And then subsequent to that, after he died, what was it like trying to get the sort of justice that you've been trying to get? And were the British law enforcement agencies good at what they were doing? Doing this photo was a not easy decision. I didn't like it because I still.

believe Sasha will survive and seeing this image. It would be just like, go back to what happened to us. But for Sasha, it was not even to find support. For him, it was just to show what this person Putin is capable, not blaming, but making people feel angry for what Putin might do or aware what Putin might do to people. And for me, from very beginning, I became outspoken, It was as well, not just to find support. I knew if I'm saying openly what I believe, what happened to us, people will start to support us without even asking for this. And what I felt every time, I can't say without effort.

Of course, it was effort from my side. But people supported us. Just I couldn't believe. For example, lawyers worked without payment. I didn't have money and you know how the system works it's the most expensive institute but when I say to Ben Emerson

I have no money to pay you and he says fine he said I will be the last person who will leave you and this was all said they received after that legal aid but it was nothing compared to their salary and what about the so you mentioned when Putin first came on the scene

and we were in government and thinking that maybe he was going to be more Western-orientated than these predecessors, and clearly we got that wrong. But then as you went through this process of trying to get inquest and trying to get proper inquiries, was that difficult? Were you finding you were pushing at an open door, or was the message that we'd rather not have to deal with this? Many things look different now when you watched what happened four, five, seven, ten years ago. then when I received question from Boris Beresowski, would you like to know who killed your husband?

I said, yes. And when I received first time, would you like to go for inquest already in 2007? I said, okay, let's go. But it was so prematurely. I tried to monitoring all advisors and what my people from police who investigated this case or my legal team.

I just try to follow their advice. And the first time I realized something is wrong in 2013. 2013, yes, it was the worst year. Because? Because first, William Hayek make a lot of files secret. Since after Sir Robert Owen makes this announcement, we have evidence Russia stayed behind of this crime. and it was like a first victory, not just us, it was all officially Russia stayed behind of this crime.

Secondary, we didn't get public inquiry because in this case, we might use these files behind the door. And we couldn't get it even more. The resume than the secretary, yes, she just even say, you're not allowed to have it. I didn't know what to do. I have no plan. I couldn't secure my cost. How frustrating was that? Absolutely.

It was just like, why you want to stop me? I'm not doing this against British government. I don't doing this against British state. I think it was, of course, I cried before, but this was, I cried. Because of the frustration. Yes. I mean, it sounds a little bit sort of, I don't want to overstate it, but it sounds a little bit Kafkaesque that you are clear what has to happen,

but you can't make it happen. Absolutely. And another one, it was like a balance. I have a lot of people supporting me. I have a legal team who said, you do right things. I have a friend of mine who said, you do right things. And suddenly from another side, people try to prevent. First of all, it became public, then to bring press,

then to make this a public inquiry again. But the public inquiry was key, wasn't it? Yes. So that was the turning point. Yes. And this was, for me, why it was important, and still a lot of speculation, we don't know exactly for what did happen. We don't know what it was.

Russia stayed behind. I want to bring this all evidence, just one by one, to public to understand is true. And stop talking. Sasha committed suicide, he smuggling radioactive material to UK and he poisoned himself. You know, it was shocking, but this was the first time sure how Russia tried to influence British public opinion. But it was Sasha himself saying in 2003, be careful with Russian money. You don't know what the... this money will bring to your society. 2003. So when you see, I know you listen to the podcast and you probably know that neither Rory or I are very fond of Boris Johnson, but when you see the stories of him being paid,

or the Conservative Party being paid lots of money for playing tennis and having dinner with the oligarchs, how does that make you feel? It was not only my feeling. I reacted. I gave it interview for what happened in 2014, because it did happen straight after 2014. And now we know what happened. It was a Crimea annexation. It was invasion to East part of Ukraine. And I said, you are not allowed to accept this money.

You have to give it back. Even you think it's good to your party, but it doesn't work. And the same happened in 2013. Before we received decision from Theresa May, it was fundraising party for Conservative. And this was a lot of Russian names who've been here as a guest in the Russian. Russian name as a donor to conservative party. So do you think it as a state that the British state has been naive about Putin the whole way through? I don't think it's naive.

Do you know, sometimes you just try to close the eyes. I say, no, no, no, it's not happened. It's not happened. It may be too strong to say to pretend we don't know. I believe intelligence still be professional and provide this information. But sometimes people make this mistake to believe you are smarter than other one. And they thought, it's all legal. I can't blame Conservative Party to take illegal money.

These are all Russian names being British citizen, and this was on rules. But sometimes you have to have something more. Well, I've only asked the first, really just the first of the hundred questions I've written down. I'm sorry to be so long. No, no, no, no, it's great, but we'll take a little break and they'll come back. Okay. Hi everybody, it's Dominic Zavarik here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away,

and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Rest is History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war, in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions,

and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain, and the Britain of the mid-1970s.

So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson,

and we'll be talking about one of the grimest moments. It's in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Right, welcome back to my chat with Marina Litvinenko. Do you see part of your role in life now just to keep Alexander's memory alive for the political purpose of fighting for change in Russia? We've had recently the David Tennant playing Alexander in pretty extraordinary portrayal.

Is that painful to be involved in that, to see it played again? that that's an important part of what you now do? When I receive this question, how is it difficult for you or how is it exhausted? I would say it's not only my life. From very beginning when we had this reality, I knew I will live my normal life anyway. It would be a very important part to fight for Sasha's, my husband, memory, for justice for him, if it's important to help other people. but I'm still being a mother.

I still be a woman. But a lot of your life now is about Alexander. I would not say it's like all my life. But what I mean, every time if I have a request to give an interview or to go for talk or make some consulting work, I'm very happy to do it. But from another side, I raised my son, who is now 28 and a young independent man,

I'm meeting my friends, and I'm so glad I'm starting my old job to do as a dance teacher. I think it helps me to keep reality. It looks like I'm living in the past, but it's not true. Okay. I don't live in the past. I live in the present and the future day. But would you ever feel, for example,

as I think some people do when they lose a partner, that you grieve and then you get over and you try to take your life in a different, direction or do you feel that you will always, always, always the rest of your life have to be fighting for his memory and fighting for justice? In this case, I would say Sasha never going to be X for me. It's anything what might happen to my life, Sasha would be there. And my promise to him to talk for what happened to us. He was in hospital when he first time asked me, Marina, you should talk. You should give interview, what I was absolutely unhappy to do.

then. But I promised and I keep my promise to my husband. And on the road to justice, how far down that road do you think you are? You've had the inquiries, you've had the British law enforcement agencies naming the two men who they think killed him. And not only the European Court of Human Rights. Exactly. They repeated exactly the same verdict and it was quite risk because we never know how European will decide. They might make some part, but not prove everything what was done here in London. Does justice to you mean Putin falls, or does it mean that the two guys who killed Alexander are in prison? What does justice mean for you? One of them already died, and he died from COVID last summer, is his Kofton. Yeah. It's a lot of questions. But of course, I would love to see Lugovoi here in London

in a court to defense and explained everything. But another one, maybe what I would say, justice for me, I would be able to go to Russia. But I would be able to go to Russia only. Russia would be without Putin. And this is one maybe moment of justice for me. So how do you see Putin falling? How does that happen? I think when it's a lot of discussion about international court of gag and maybe for his military crime,

I'm afraid it will not happen because it would be different of sooner justice inside of Russia. And this would be more brutal. Why they don't like to remember what happened to Gaddafi and Libya, when angry people turned to other side? Do you really think that would happen in Russia? For what happened in Ukraine now with all these people, military people who now are fenced and blamed for doing all wrong. I mean, Russia doesn't have not united military group.

They have one group under President of Chechnya, Kadirov, who they say we fight the best one. Another criminal group under pre-Gosian, who said we fight the best way in a military group who always blame to do wrong and who will turn against Putin or Putin's elite inside of Russia, we will see. And I think it might be happy.

soon with the help of Ukrainian army. You were in Ukraine when the invasion happened, weren't you? So what was that, what was that like? Maybe it was a little bit risky idea and quite innocent. I went to Ukraine not to monitoring Russian army or what might happen. It was a beautiful place in Ukraine, west of Ukraine, close to Slovakia. And I would say I didn't take any risk because all tens started in the east part of. And do you go to Ukraine because it makes you feel closer to Russia?

In some way, yes. And I had a lot of nice friends and place in Ukraine and went to, and actually it was for winter hiking. And I believed it's a good time to go. I have a break in February. I knew it was a little bit unsafe in some way. But it was too far from east. And if something happened and I would be safe. But when it all happened, 24.

of February, everybody tried to push me out from country. I said, no way. I have my tickets 28th of February and I will stay here till this day. I was immediately hacked of all this atmosphere. People not been frightening. And I saw they never give up. They will fight to the end. I didn't believe this war started as brutal as it started in the beginning. But I never. have idea they will fail. Never. And do you still feel that? And now particularly, even more stronger. So do you think Putin is perhaps in that position as a dictator who's surrounded by people

who are scared of him, tell him the things he wants to hear, and he underestimated what the reaction was going to be? If you take history of Putin's regime, he every time makes a war, makes a war. He started with apartment bombing in 1999 and Second War in Chechnya. Then he needed this in Georgia in 2008. Then he needed this in Ukraine in 2014. He always needs to support himself as a dictator, making people frightening, make this all propaganda media working harder because of the war.

Now, Alexander, on his very first meeting with Putin, said to people like you and others that he was close to, this guy is terrible, truly terrible. And as you've already pointed out, other people who were more experienced in statecraft, perhaps, felt that maybe he was not as terrible as all that. So what was it that made him say that and feel that? Sasha knew his history of being a vice-mare of San Petersburg,

and San Petersburg was named as a criminal character. of Russia. No, we genuinely thought Putin was different. Do I remember those years, yes. So the very first time he met Putin, very first time Alexander met Putin, he was the first person to coin the phrase a mafia state. He told you and others close to him, this guy is really, really, really bad and really dangerous for Russia and really dangerous

for the world. And as you said, at the time, the world was trying to see the best in Putin, maybe. So what was it in Putin that he saw that made him feel so viscerally that this guy was such a danger? First of all, I would like to say, Putin was a virtual figure. Nobody really knew about him. Nothing. He looked like a Western. He speaks German.

He became looking more smarter. But if you saw him back to his San Petersburg era, he was awful. He was absolutely awful. And criminal. And criminal. And criminal. He was somebody from San Petersburg. He came to Moscow and he was selected from Moscow. And this was obvious not a Putin and not a family of Boris Yeltsin, former president of Russia, who decided to bring Putin to this position. So you say it wasn't Yeltsin decided. It was not Yeltsin. I believe it was a chance to this kind of democratic society to believe they're doing it. They're doing this themselves. So who wanted Putin?

System. And when we're talking about if Putin gone, we have to remember, is it still the system who created Putin, who never been destroyed with Soviet Union collapsing in 1991? We have to remember Communist Party and KGB where there's two head of Soviet Union and building this country for more than 70 years and be sure you destroyed immediately just one movement. It was not possible. So hold on. It's interesting that because there's a strand of opinion within the American government at the moment. And maybe this is the strand that is saying maybe we have to start talking to Russia about what happens in Ukraine and whether some sort of deal can be done. Because they worry that what follows Putin because of the system, as you call it, could be even worse. I mean, do you understand why that thinking goes on? It became worse since 90s. And this was first Sasha's view.

He started to work for Central Quarter. He was moved from Army and he started to see this old system from inside. How this service who became very criminal because many former KGB officers looked like they resigned.

They stopped working for new service because it looks like all been destroyed. But every business in Russia had a security head from KGB. And they started this war with a criminal, not like a proper war, just connecting to each other. You don't touch us,

you don't touch us. And then these people knew... And that's what Sasha meant by a mafia state. Exactly. Was Berezovsky part of the mafia state? It's very simple. Sasha was not involved to Berezovsky. Sasha, if I just finished this opinion, because it's very important to understand.

When we're talking about mafia, imagine Italian mafia, it's something in America, in some infrastructure influence to a government but anyway government fight against mafia we every time have some kind of score how much but in russia it was mafia state itself they never fight the mafia exactly they never fight against each other they find no they fight against each other but for who will be in a top and sasha tried to explore this old system starts invoking for Spanish authorities because they prove this strong connection between organized crime and people

from government who decide who is going to be next minister. Did you think there was ever a point where Putin was going to try to be a more Western-orientated, honest leader? Or do you think he was always going to be the mafia state head that you described now? Do you think he started with good intentions or not? No, we have to remember. In 2001, privatization was completely finished. We have oligarchs, rich people, controlling business, and everything became more or less civilized. But for the system who represents Putin, it was not right. And they wanted to make a change. They wanted to bring this all under control.

And of course, they need to make this all change step by step. and West has to see this all normal. So how does it, your idea that somehow because of Ukraine and what's happening in the effect of the war that people rise up, there's not that much sign of it, is there? Is that fear? Is that brainwashing? What's behind that? Before when we had only TV, radio, and people lived in Soviet Union, they knew this

all Communist Party foolish, there's all people staying one by one, then banged one by one. people, of course it was difficult to live with total control, but it was not so much brainwashed. And now when people had a chance to travel abroad, to watch West programs, and now to believe it's all right with war in Ukraine, this is a very serious point how they've been brainwashed. But majority of Russian populations are still very, I would say, immature. If you switch off different programs and started to talk in a different way, you will not say they became politically more activated, but they're never going to support Putin on the street.

I'll give this example about Second World War. When France was invaded, how many people supported Nazis? 10% of population? And the same 10% came for this fighting. And the majority being just like, okay, the state. Do you think it's at all possible that he will still be Putin as we know him when he dies naturally? Do you think he could actually be there for a long time? Dying naturally for him, it would be the best scenario.

But for what is happening now between Ukraine and Russia and a success from Ukrainian army, and now everybody talking about Crimea, if it would be taking back for Putin, it would be all damage. He always tried to show himself as a person who bring a land back, who rebuilt Russian Empire, if it's what happened. And why he's fighting against Ukraine? Because Ukraine draft out from Russia Empire. Russia never going to be or saved empire without Ukraine. And he can't agree with this. So the last time I saw you was when a part of London was being named after Boris Nemtsov, who I met.

by the way, with Tobias, with Tony Blair in those days, you've referred to. And so he was another one murdered by the Putin regime. And this part of London was being named after him. And I was watching you because while it was going on, the ceremony was going on, you had the Hampstead and Highgate something or other society who were blowing Vuvazelas and holding up placards, criticising deboccur. in Camden. And it just seemed extraordinary that here we were honoring somebody who was murdered with people

like you and others who have experience of this. And yet we had these people waving placards complaining about democracy in Camden because they didn't like the fact that this was being named after Boris Nemtsov. How did that make you feel about the debate here? For me, maybe I'm not right. I always see Russian behind with this. because this place was very close to Russian trade companies. That's why it was there.

Exactly. Trade delegation, yeah. And for me, it's obvious they try to make these people and pushing people to make this protest, to show how they dislike it, or some people saying good about Russia. I always see these people behind. Because I found it quite offensive the whole thing.

I was recently in this area because I visited a grave of my husband, what is in a high gate cemetery. And one man just passed me, said, oh, I'm so sorry, I saw you recently for this opening ceremony. And he told me, it was right things to do. I know what is happening in Ukraine. I know what happened to your husband. And I said, I hope you all this residents supporting this. He said, yes, it's not problem.

What are the Voovizela people said, oh, here they come for the virtue signaling. And I saw, what would you rather, that we? We did some vice signaling. Very interesting. When I had my just all process of justice and when I had that time to get from court and making some statement, I always had a guy behind me

who tried to distract and make some attention. But he was mostly with some nuclear dust. He had some placard. And everybody hated him. Was he British or Russian? British. And when it was even last, last my statement after

finishing public inquiry he brought a dog and this was dog barking all time and it was everybody had been so angry because one side is a dog you can't do nothing with this dog but this dog was so close to my leg

and my lawyer she was worried if I moved and this dog might bite me you know this situation was very very dangerous for all of us and I kicked this dog as well because I like dog very much. And this was the same.

And for me, it was just like deja vu when I saw this guy. So it's just intimidation. And when you're going around the place in London, do you feel under threat? Do you feel scared? No, I don't. I still surprise when people recognize me. I don't feel myself any celebrity. And I don't feel people read a lot about politics.

But I'm still stopping sometimes. And people say, thank you. very much for what they're doing. And for me, I think it's the best. But when you've had your husband wiped out in the way that he was and you're carrying on the same, affected of the same fight

in a different way, is that not worry you? I don't think so. Many people from Russia who is in prison now or who get out, they still think exactly the same and very loud. It depends who is listening to you. I hope

people trust me, because is my personal story. I have no any political reason. I'm not representing any business. I only show be human. Does it help when somebody like David Tennant plays Alexander in the series that's just been on television? I think David Tennant now is the greatest example of humanity. He's a great star. He attracted now a new generation watching this story because young people who might be just born 16 years ago but because they liked David Tennant and they will watch this

and they will have this all explanation for what happened in 2006. And what about your life now? How do you see the rest of your life playing out? I was every time reflecting to our son. It was my another promise to Sasha.

Your son, Anatolia was in the media recently because it emerged that when Putin announced mobilization for this special military operation, that he got a knock on the door to be asked to take part. Now, did they know who he was? Or was that just random? And what was his reaction?

I received this news from a friend of mine who lives in this flat when Anatoli Litvinenko, our son, is a residential, still being, because we never give up our Russian citizens. And when he called me, these two guys came from military office to ask for Anatoly Litvinenko to go to serve for this war, I was absolutely shocked. First time, they tried to make contact when Anatoly reached his 17th, like an all young man in Russia, supposed to be registered in the military office when they became 18 to go to serve.

And this was the first time when my then-alif mom received this letter. and I had communication to this office, myself, directly say he can't be registered. We live now in London. And I still don't believe they have not even understanding who is Alexander Litvinenko, who is his son. And I think it's like all in Russia. Is it a common name? Not very common, not. I'll tell you even more hilarious story.

When Sasha, of course, he never reached his 50s. but when he was 50s, he received a letter, congratulations with your 50s. Did people news this? I don't believe it was a black humor. They don't. No, they don't. They just congratulated him as an officer to celebrate his 50s.

Are you sure that wasn't black humor? They're too smart to them. Well, that is too smart to do that. No, this was some kind of exchanged when this was public inquiry and Lugavois sent some t-shirt with a let's go drink tea with Polonia something like this. This was all this

this exchange. But this one just shown how in Russia all works. It's all cut. All cut. It's not linked between different services, different organizations. And Anatoly doesn't mind being in Russia?

Not at all. I really am proud of him. He started to sign everything. Anatoly Letvinenko. We still have British name when we received a political asylum. But Anatoly is proud to be, Anatoly Litvinenko.

Do you want to end your days in Russia? You know, it's difficult to say every time when you discussed about nostalgia, I'm from Moscow. I'm like a city, I can't say a girl. I'm not going on. You're a city person.

I'm a city person. Yes. And when you move to London, what is a great city as well, you just don't feel you have something to regret about. But most it's about your friends, people, but I have less and less people I might be missing. And it's not Moscow anymore for what I left. Moscow was always very tough city to live. I do understand Ukrainian way they're fighting for their country because these people, understand what does it mean a land. They just belonged. And I see how they are nostalgia. All people, Ukrainian who I know here, they miss Ukraine so much. And if I'm not going to Russia soon, but I'm definitely going to Ukraine. And what I said, we all need to be a little bit Ukrainian. Marina, it's been lovely talking to you. I'm so glad we could do this. I wish you all the best in the world. Thank you very much. And for inviting me, I feel very privileged to meet you, to speak to you, and to share my feelings.

And to tell me that we got Putin wrong. Yes. We can't make means back to the stake, but better not to repeat the same mistakes in future. So that was brilliant. How did she find that? That must have been fascinating and also quite tough because she's challenging you a bit, isn't she or challenging you and the Tonyberg government a little bit? Yeah, she was being a very, very nice way.

I mean, she strikes me as an incredibly nice woman. And you just got to admire the guts and the perseverance to keep going and keep fighting. She is still fighting. I don't know what I'd do if something as bad as that happened to Fiona say. I just don't know whether I'd really ever be able to kind of cope with it. I guess we never know until those things happen. But she's got a, she's got a remarkable dignity about herself. She's got real resilience.

And she's got a very, very, very sharp. political mind. And so I think that, you know, I'm sure you'd have agreed with an awful lot that she said about Putin in particular. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing it, Alastron. Thank you to Marina. And we'll be back next week with Alan Milburn, who is one of my sort of labor heroes, because he was a great reformer in the health service, tried to take through some very difficult reforms, which I think are relevant to the way the NHS operates today. And hopefully he's going to take us into the core of one of the biggest issues in British politics, which is the future of our healthcare. So see you next Monday. See you then. All the best. Thank you.