The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 201. How Westminster Breaks Politicians and Why Britain Isn't Ready for War

Episode Date: August 9, 2026

Is Britain's military being left behind as drones and AI rewrite the rules of modern warfare? Is British politics broken beyond repair, and does Johnny Mercer's ruthless fight for veterans reveal what's really wrong with Westminster? Why did a man so obsessed with truth end up defending Boris Johnson?  Alastair and Rory are joined by Johnny Mercer, former Conservative MP, Cabinet Minister, and Veterans Minister, to answer all these questions and more. __________ Search IG.com to find out more and/or Look for IG in your app store. __________ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [e-mail] __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's therestispoletics.com. Today we've got someone who I think we could say is pretty relevant to everything that's going on. We're about to interview Johnny Mercer, the former Conservative Member of Parliament, Cabinet Minister, veterans minister, former soldier. And why are we interviewing him? We're interviewing him because we have a new prime minister. Mr. Andy Burnham, who's fundamentally come in and said, politics is broken. We need a new way of doing politics. And Johnny has been one of the most outspoken, powerful analysts of what he thinks is wrong

about British politics, British Parliament, the way we conduct ourselves. But he's also someone who really understands the other big debate in British politics, which is around defence, Russia, Ukraine, how much we're spending on the military, how we protect ourselves. He's got an extraordinary backstory which we'll get into. He's a remarkable person, but I think for listeners, two big things to think about, broken politics in Britain and the question of what do we do about our national security. So welcome, Johnny. This episode is presented by IG. It's August, parliaments in recess. Fund managers are on the beach or doing whatever fund managers do. But those of us who follow the news closely know the world doesn't stop shifting just because it's summer.

As Alastar often reminds me when I emerge from some retreat, geopolitics, central bank decisions, the markets, and goodness knows what else is going on all the time. And while August may definitely catch investors off guard, having their portfolios spread across multiple apps and accounts makes it even harder to stay on top of things. And that's where IG comes in. IG brings all your investing, trading and funding together in one connected app. So you can move money, manage positions and acts on opportunities without even switching platforms. Plus, IG charges no annual fees and zero commission on stocks, shares and ETFs.

In essence, it's a more efficient platform that also costs you less. Download the IG app and get started. IG, trade, invest, progress. Capital at risk, other fees may apply. Welcome to the rest of the policy leading with me, Alice Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. Johnny, tell us a little bit about your time in the military. How old were you when you joined the Marines, where you deployed, the tough parts,

the fun parts. Give us a sort of summary of those, that part of your life. I know you're supposed to come out of a military career like mine and sort of be kind of slightly affected by it and full of regret and all the rest of it. I've got to be honest with you, that's not my experience. Okay, I had a wonderful time in the military. I was incredibly lucky because I met some incredible people. I wasn't in the Royal Marines because I didn't want to join the Navy. I joined the Army Commandos, which is a similar sort of thing. But I had a trade. So my job was the terminal control of indirect weapon systems. So you've got missiles and bombs and helicopters and jets. And essentially you're trying to bring those effects to bear to nine times out of ten, just kind of break a contact and get

British troops out of contact. I served in Afghanistan in 2006, eight to nine, and then ten. And had a really broad experience because I worked obviously at the teams level. And then I did a tour attached to special forces where, you know, you're sort of working in a slightly more sensitive space. And, you know, That's when I first came across politicians, actually, people like Gordon Brown and David Cameron and William Hague, and ultimately that led me to where I am rather strangely. But look, for me, it was the people. I feel obviously I've had this kind of cause

and that burns on my soul around veterans care. And that's not something I ever thought for a minute would ever happen to me. But the truth is you work with really special people who I think I, But in the country today, you know, people are always in the news, they're tweeting about this, or they're saying this, or they have these views. These people who get up every morning, who are in their kit, who go and serve the nation, who go and do the unpopular operations, whether it's Iraq or Afghanistan.

And they do it because they believe in it, right? They believe in not necessarily the political direction and so on, but they believe in a set of values and standards and what life is all about. I really loved being with them. And I thought they're incredibly special people. I saw them do absolutely extraordinary things, far braver and more stoic than I would have ever been, particularly when they were injured. And I just had this thing in me that I was like, why don't we look after these people? Like, I've seen them make choices that have got themselves hurt because they believe in what they're doing.

And yet the country, whilst it talks, you see, there's another scientist where they talk a good game. And so it kind of made it worse because if you say you're going to do something, you don't do it. It's kind of worse than saying you weren't going to do in the first place, right? Because you give them the false hope. So we all do the kind of remembrance and all the rest of it. We're like, these guys are the best of us. But when it comes to actual real programs to help them, there was nothing there. And so that's why I went into politics.

And you mentioned David Cameron there. I get the feeling that you like David Cameron, were inspired by David Cameron. He, in a way, is what made you think, I want to go and help that guy. But you almost became like a, I know you did the book shows. you did loads and loads of work, but you, strikes me, you became like virtually a single-issue politician. The veterans was kind of everything. Maybe two issues, John.

I mean, the two things that come through are your constituents, and you care deeply about people in Plymouth and what their interests are, and you care deeply about veterans. But those seem to be the two themes really dominating the book. Yeah, so, I mean, I think I had a slightly naive and still do, and different view of politics to a lot of people. for me it was so if you take the veterans issue for example

essentially the system wasn't working right because it's not like some people think that you know primeless and so on over the years just don't care about veterans right and I don't accept that at all I think that people do care but government becomes so busy and you're dealing with so many different

things and it's incredibly hard to get things on the agenda as you found with you know environment issues and and all the rest of it that there was tokenism is too strong. But essentially the system wasn't working. And I felt that it was my job as almost singularly to go in there and cause so much chaos on behalf of these people that people would actually look at this issue and change things. So I never thought I had all the answers on veterans care. I don't

know what programs work best. I know all the people who know the best programs, whether it's, you know, at King's College or whatever. I never knew what was the best treatment for these people. What I knew is that it needed the political space and the priority allocated to it so that we could actually start to move away from that tokenism and don't we think these people great to actually setting up clear mental health pathways, clear access into treatment for those with complex prosthetic injuries and so on. And that was my role. And so for me, it wasn't about coming into politics. And, you know, I always found it weird.

I know about you, but I found it weird. Someone to phone me up and go, Johnny, what do you think about this announcement on the Chinese economy? me. And I'd be like, I've absolutely no idea about that. And then, you know, and but, but if you go into politics and you want to be someone, you're going to give them a comment, you're going to be like, right, well, actually, I think that they should do this or they should do that. And then you think nothing over the next day, you're in the tea room, you're reading the newspaper. And there's a little comment by Johnny Mercer MP, he thinks the Chinese economy should do this. And suddenly, you're becoming someone, right? You're in the papers. You're, wow, you know, I could be someone. And you kind of send a link to your

dismal social media following and you're like you're becoming someone right that wasn't the game for me the game for me was like I'm going to make you go I'm going to rub your nose in it on this veterans issue until you do something about it and look I totally accept the criticism for that I I feel like you know I didn't really I you know Roy I didn't make friends there right but for me that was I took pleasure in that because I was trying to change it right I was trying to make it work for these people because you look at these guys so I talk around my book you go and make a video for the mum and take their life, right? I make no apology for being ruthlessly in it for them

and not for the others. And that's a decision I make and I have to take the criticism for that. But I honestly wouldn't change it. One of the things that is interesting, and I want to just sort of step back for a second, reflect on and maybe it's your family background, maybe it's your character,

maybe it's your military background. One of things that's surprising is that you are, I mean, like you, I was thought that so much of Parliament was crazy, nonsensical, right? You write very well about the fact that PMQs is a total fake nonsense where nobody's really asking questions. In fact, you go into much more detail. If somebody's a student in politics and wants to really get into the detail,

Johnny does it very well. He literally explains that there's a guy called Gavin Williamson trying to hand out questions and literally writing the questions for you and you ask the question that he's asked you to get, and then you get invited to the Treasury drinks, and then all this kind of stuff. So Johnny's very, very good on the mechanics of party management media. What's interesting, though,

is that you didn't feel as you might have done about some of the bullshit in the army, right? You might have felt polishing my boots or ironing my trousers or doing something stupid the sergeant told me to do is just part of the business. I'm not going to question every one of these things. And actually some ex-military people, people in Parliament do sort of take that attitude to the whips. They sort of think, well,

it's all nonsense, but this is the game and I'll do what I told and get on with it. You came in with quite a, I mean, more than me. You know, I was prepared to come home and say to Shoshana. This is crazy nonsense, but sort of that seems to be the culture. It seems to have riled you from day one. You weren't prepared to look at it like a sergeant telling you to go and polish your boots again. Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, it's, you know, so it's this relationship with authority, right?

And I've got to be honest, worry, when you join up, you know what it's like as a young person, you join up and you have these people on pedestals and you go through. Afghanistan changed a lot of that for me, right? Because Afghanistan was quite a unique experience. So people like me, the terminal controllers,

so there's not many of you in the army. It's a great job if you're not at war because you can go and you can go on exercise. to America instead of Sunny Bridge and you know sit there in the sun. If you're at war, there's a certain number of you in theatre at any one time and you are going to keep going back to that place and so you spend a lot of time

in combat, you spend a lot of time with the teams and that inevitably shapes your views around authorities. So there's definitely an element of that but I honestly and I talk about this in my book and I don't want to sound harsh but I came to Parliament

and I was slightly taken about as to the quality the individual. Okay. And the way they conduct themselves on the day-to-day business, the way they make decisions, the way they speak about other people,

the way they speak about their constituents. And finding that the whole thing with stage, like that PMQ's things is a very, very good example. You don't do well in PMQs by standing up and asking a question on an area of government policy because you know your constituents are waiting to hear it. You get marked well for getting a question, reading it out, delivering it with some gusto,

making everyone laugh, getting some jiz and the opposition sit down and you can all go to a team and say, you know, for me, that wasn't politics

and I couldn't lie about who I was, right? I couldn't come in there and think, yeah, I'm just going to play a thing. I started if I'm more, I'm worried because I took, you know,

I looked at people like you and I looked at others and I thought, why am I, you know, why am I so kind of mateless? Why am I not getting on here? What am I doing wrong?

And then, you know, when certain prime ministers came through, I thought about playing the game more. And I voted for stuff I'm ashamed of now. But when that happens, the real like moral gears inside me, I felt this sense of kind of shame. And I was like, I'm not doing that. It's not me. So why didn't I sort of take the whips particularly seriously? Yeah, there's an element of that. I mean, you're asking me to come out of a specialist military unit where you know what they're like in those organizations and get a take seriously

advice from Chris Pinscher. I mean, I don't want to be unkind, Rory, but that is absurd. Okay. you're asking me to take political advice from Spads who, you know, have just left university and never worked outside the political system, whereas I've gone and banged on almost 30,000 doors in Plymouth, and I know that life is really bloody hard for a lot of them, and this is what they care about. For me, the lack of authenticity I just found incredibly difficult, and I'm well open and I should be open to criticism, and people are welcome to criticise me because I realise that I did it in the way that other people don't do it, and I can be accused. being naive and idealistic and all the rest of it. But for me, you know, it comes back to the biggest challenge is the quality of people we get in politics because they're making like clear decisions. For example, when we elected Liz Truss, right? People make clear decisions of their interest

over the national interest. They knew, they knew what she was going to be like. But they were like, she's going to make me a minister. And I wasn't used to spending my life with people who got that decision the wrong way around, right? They would genuinely have the kind of values to think, I know this isn't going to work. I'm going to put my hand up and say, I'm not happy with this. You know, moral courage and all the rest of it they talk about in the military.

I'm not a sane to a prophet. I'm not like, like, I've done some seriously bad things, right? But for me, there's like basic things you have to get right when it comes to moral courage. I thought you had a very good two-word description of Listeros. I think it was reliably stupid. You're quite harsh about your colleagues. I think some of them won't like this book. But what's interesting about even those you say, both in the, when you're in the military, military, and then when you get into the MOD, you're always challenging a culture, which is a good thing. But you do manage to have good relations, like you and Cameron clearly had a pretty good

relationship, you had a lot of respect for Theresa May, even though she stitched you up on veterans as well. You were quite close to Boris Johnson. You paint a very interesting portrayal of Johnson. I was really shocked, I think I texted you. I was really shocked that you were there with him on the day that he left office. And I thought, what's he doing there alongside this charlatan?

So you can maybe talk to that. I remember you guys went mad at me, actually, for not asking the first PMQ that day and asking when he was going to leave office. Do you remember when I had that PMQ? Yeah, we're always nodding. Look, I think, firstly, I don't think the book is like a drive-by

my colleagues at all. No, it's not, but it's interesting. You go through very well-known public figures. There are extremely good people who went to politics and I'd never met anyone who went to their with a bad intention. The truth is Whitehall and Westminster do something to people. And that's what we need to try and understand this culture that we've created, of which there are many players. And the media is a big part of that. And I talk about that in the book as well. They'd like to

say, I think they're completely blameless, but I don't subscribe to that. Obviously, we are responsible as elected politicians for who we elect and electing people like Liz Truss, knowing that it was going to be bad for the country. But I think there's lots of people who have a role in this who would like to think of themselves as blameless. But I think, You've seen with Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party and others in the Tories, you know, these parties can be pretty elastic, right? There's people getting kicked out now, Gavin Barwell for, you know, for his stance and so on. For me, you know, and for better or worse, it was about the person.

I said, yes, I did like David Cameron. I have huge respect for him. He's obviously a very different background to me. But I think he got the fundamentals right. And I like the way, I know, you know, I know that this isn't a universally shared opinion around David Cameron. But I like things like when he was talking about prisons getting very he's like, look, this is not going to happen on my watch. He was, he had his own mind and he was going to force it through. And I thought that was our job as politicians was to go

and fight for people, right, to make the machine work. That's what I was doing on veterans or whether it's around addiction services in Plymouth. You're not there to make friends. You're not there so that people think this guy's got an amazing background. He's got a deep story. He's a real thinker. It doesn't work like that. That's not politics for me, certainly. And you know for me it was far more important to have a set of values and ethos and standards that you're making these decisions based on you get all these fast decisions every day particularly as prime ministers i've seen a number of times and you have to have a clear set of beliefs what are you believe in and the trouble is when i was there the kind of people who didn't believe in anything at all their numbers just overwhelmed us in the end so particularly when rory and his cohort left that imbalance created a very difficult and unpleasant environment and extraordinary in some ways. But all of those put Cameron and probably soon act to one side, but the rest of them in some way completely stitched you up over veterans.

I don't accept they stitch me up because I don't think they're bad people. Or let you down. They let you down. Yeah, but I don't think they're bad people. I think that whenever you're fighting for something in politics, it's about creating the space. If you remember back to the Brexit years and all those horrific debates late into the evening, and you would see, you know, I always used to feel slightly embarrassed, when I'd see the kind of Brexiteers all marching.

They put their top hats on, they marched down to number 10. They asked for the latest kind of ridiculous demand out of Theresa May. And I actually learned from that because although in normal day-to-day conservative party under Cameron, these were slightly fringe figures,

okay? They were now dominating debate. And I saw what they were doing. And I was like, I need to do that for veterans. That's what I need to do. I need to create as much carnage as I possibly can so that I get a seat at the table

to change what they're doing. because they don't make conscious decisions we're not going to look after veterans. It's like Tony and yourself in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland prosecution yourself, people don't make negative decisions about them. The problem is politics is incredibly busy. You can have an agenda one day,

we're going to talk about AI today. Next thing comes in, you know, record numbers coming over the channel. You're going to talk about immigration for the next week. And what you have to do is create that space for the communities that you're trying to represent, in my case, veterans, and make that happen. So did I think they were negative on it?

No, I think I got really frustrated with people saying things and they're not doing them. I totally accept that. And some of my behaviour was not good, right? I mean, I was very brash with Northern Ireland secretaries. Honestly, in the end, we got there. So do I have regrets? Yeah, I have regrets that I made mistakes. And, you know, I didn't really have any friends.

But in the end, I achieved my objectives, right? in that I brought in legislation to end the prosecution of Northern Ireland soldiers. I set up the UK's first office of Veterans Affairs. We now spend £6.5 billion a year on veterans. I don't want to go through a tribute act, but I fundamentally shifted the dial on the way this country thinks about veterans. And so it's hard for me to feel regret for it, you know. So, Johnny, let's get to a little bit of a description of Plymouth.

I mean, I think we talk a lot about local democracy. We've got a new prime minister coming in who's really interested in. the idea that, which I think he'd share with you, that there's too much power in Westminster, too centralised, and he's really felt that he has understood politics much more by being based in Manchester. It's resonated with him much more. He can relate to people much more. He's got this lovely sense in his book that Andy Burnham says when he gets off the train, out of his whole chest expands, this huge relief being like, tell us a little bit about Plymouth. Tell us about your sense of the place, what's good about it, what's challenging about it. And let's imagine

I made you the Prime Minister of Plymouth, what would you want it to be in 10, 15 years time? What's a really positive vision for people that would really give a sense that that was the kind of Britain you believed in? So I first went down to Plymouth as a teenager when I joined the military and I wanted to go to this specific unit in Plymouth called 2-9 Commander, which is a very small regiment. There's hardly any places there. And I was very keen, that's where I wanted to be. And I don't know what it was about the place that really kind of wrapped its fingers around me. But I remember walking to that camp, the Citadel on the hill in Plymouth and looking out over Plymouth and the sea. And for the first time, really, since I was a very small boy, I felt like I had come home.

Like, these people were like me. And it's quite hard. I mean, you've written a book about this about Cumbria. It's quite hard to really put out there why these places really grip you and resonate with you. I think in some ways it's because they reflect your character, right? So in Plymouth, yes, there's a strong military hue, but it's this physically, it's an amazing place. You've got, you know, the ocean is very different down there. You've got the moors behind you.

They are really good, honest, straightforward people, right? They don't, you know, traditionally in the past, Michael Foote was the MP in my seat down there. And, you know, they've generally been pigeonholed, I felt in Plymouth as slight sort of underachievers, not quite sure what's sort of good for them. And things are always going to be the same, I felt. And I'm afraid, you know, I did feel that was kind of reinforced, if you like, by certain policies under the Labour government, particularly around welfare, where I had people leaving my regiment as corporals, you know, which is not a terrible rank, okay, and going and they wouldn't have a job 12 months later because they had three kids and they had a better life on benefits.

And I saw what that was doing, not just to, you know, forget the stigma of being on benefits, but like to their kids, not seeing their parents have a job and so on. And I just thought this is, you know, the impact that had on poverty and on children in Plymouth particularly gripped me. I think that it's an extremely kind of hardy place, right? So it's dealt with a lot of, it's a long way from London. It's never really had that kind of focus that you would like it to have. It kind of has the military there. And so government, I think, has traditionally thought, look, we give them all this work.

We're just not going to pay a lot of attention to the other stuff. really that military footprint has reduced a lot and being replaced by kind of small and medium size enterprises and normal families, right, who struggle with the every day that normal families have in this country, whether they rely on decent social housing, whether they rely on decent public services. You know, I've always had this impression, Roy, you know, people like us in the studio in particular, pretty fortunate when it comes to the government, we see the government, we try and pay as, you know, tax, and then hope they just leave us alone. We don't want anything to do with it.

For people in Plymouth, government is a big deal, right? Because they're heavy users of the NHS. They're heavy on social care. They need addiction services to be run properly. They need the local budget to be run properly. And I guess I saw in that the way that veteran services weren't being run and the impact that had on my cohort and what that was having on Plymouth. And the two kind of docks.

I also, look, I had a pretty tough time, I think, like everybody following Afghanistan and the natural beauty of Plymouth certainly brought me a degree. of peace that I don't think I would have got elsewhere. Johnny, let me just push into Plymouth's future a bit. So this is very live. I mean, these coastal communities, of course, you know, it's what Nigel Farage represents the coastal community. And if you were talking about Britain and a lot of the political problems, people would

often say the problem actually is exactly places like Plymouth that feel left behind, feel marginalized, feel they're not properly represented in Westminster. So what's the positive vision for them? Again, you know, you as the Prime Minister of Plymouth, what would you? want to do for a community like that over 10, 15 years? So I mean, people reengaged again. Yeah. I think the number one thing actually,

is leadership because you go out and you talk to people about politics as I did. And look, the way I got elected, Roy, it was quite straightforward in a way. I became a candidate in the Conservative Party. I went for Plymouth. No one wanted me to stand in Plymouth because Michael Foote was there and they sort of said to me, you know, that's the way they vote. You know what it was like on the list.

You're either in or you're out. And I was like, look, I've no interest in standing anywhere else. I didn't understand why someone would stand where they didn't have a tie to. And I thought the only way of getting in, I literally looked at the figures and realized that less and less people were engaged and less people were voting. And the problem with that is that you get the same kind of concentration of people voting in a certain way. But then most people are just disengagement, right? And they get their politics on one level. They're incredibly busy.

They've got two naughty children who won't go to school. they don't listen to Today program, they don't listen to your podcast. And they are just, every touch point for them with politics is kind of bad, right? It's around a scandal. It's around something that hasn't worked. And what I thought with Felicity, my wife, and it was her idea, and she's obviously a lot better at this than me. But I was like, look, we are just going to go bang on every single door.

We're not going to have a massive political message about change, about Cameron, about, we're just going to be like, look, I'm a local guy. This is what I believe in, right? The military, Plymouth, veterans. I'm going to stand at the election. I'd love you to come out and vote for me. I didn't even take a voter intention. I didn't take a single voter intention, boy.

Because I thought that if they saw a normal person doing this and being like, yeah, he's a good guy and he's clearly in it for the right reasons, whatever I voted for politically before, I'm going to vote for him. So it comes back in answer to your question. What are people looking for? They're not looking for a kind of new political way of thinking

or theory that is going to, you know, citizens, assemblies and so on that's going to shake the whole thing down. They want really basic stuff, but we've been unable to provide that, right? Whether it's standards in public life, whether it's people that are going to actually do what they say, right? So if you say you're not going to vote on HS2 until you've got a clear route to a rail line down to Plymouth, actually do that. The problem is you get people going to Westminster and they get sort of drunk in the culture of Westminster. And suddenly they're voting for all this mad stuff that's going to have a profound impact on their constituency.

And that is what turns people off. So what I'd like to do is really engage people and show them the point. Politics is important, right? It matters that you have competent people in there who are able to run a budget so you don't cut addiction services so you don't see the homeless on the street so there's no hope in Plymouth. The messing about in politics, the circus, it is not a consequence-free pastime. It is for the people who are in politics because we just want to pay our tax and hope the government leaves us alone. For other people whose son has gone to Plymouth and they need good addiction services or the heavy use of the NHS or social care, it really matters. and we have really, really pissed them off.

So I'd like to share, I wouldn't go in with a big theory of we're going to have citizens assemblies, this is the way we're going to run it. I'd just go and try and provide some leadership to political and public life and kind of set the example that you would like them to follow. I know that's not, you know, the kind of key policy issue that I know you're interested in, Rory and, you know, kind of scholars of politics are. But I don't think we need to throw the baby out of the bathwater. I think it's more simple than that. It's about the quality of people we get into politics, the attraction of it. I mean, who on earth we're going to politics now, right? Who's attracted to politics?

It is literally show business for ugly people, right? You can get in there, you can see your comments in the paper, you can suddenly think you're becoming someone. Really, those are the people who shouldn't be anywhere near politics, right? You should have these people who come in and who are absolutely committed to fighting the system to make it work for those who really need government every day. That's what I would do in Plymouth. I'm not particularly tribal. I'll be honest with you. I've never, you know, I never voted before as an MP.

And I've got to be honest, most people are in that boat. They just want basic good stuff done properly. They want you to do what you say you're going to do. And these things are not that difficult. That's how I got elected, Rory. I went round and I knocked on these doors. I knew nothing about the Tory party. Well, I knew nothing about politics.

For me, it was like a source of comedy. You know, all these scandals all the time, all these skits on the TV. But they voted for me. They voted for me in record numbers by the end. So, Johnny, let me just jump in there because you talk about the quality of people. I'll go back to what I asked you earlier. Boris Johnson is a truly awful human being. And he became Prime Minister.

Liz Trusses, you say, terrible, utterly unseeded to be Prime Minister. A lot of what your complaints you're making about politics are actually, they do chime with what Andy Burnham has been saying and what is he going to try hopefully to fix. But I still want to get back to this thing because in the end, you know, relationships are part of life, they're part of politics. I still can't quite understand the nature of that relationship you had with Boris Johnson

because I see you as somebody who's really big on truth, really big on moral character, really big on moral courage, and the guy just offended all of those things all the time. So was it just you trying to be nice to somebody who was in trouble? What was that...

I mean, which bit? My relationship went up and down, right? This guy sacked me, you know, and... No, the fact that you know, you have a very interesting account in the book where Johnson are due to come to do a visit in your constituency

and he just literally can't cancel at the last minute because he can't be asked. You then, as you say, he misleads you or he certainly disappoints you on the veterans thing. Eventually, when he's in trouble, needs you, gives you this job. And then when he's finally bites the dust, you're standing there behind him,

clapping him out of the answer. So I think ultimately these people are human beings as well, right? And we're all fallible. Yes, I mean, there were plenty of moments where I just wanted to rip Boris Johnson's head off. Yeah, I mean, he came down, you know, throughout his campaign. I've never spoken to anybody about jobs. I've spoken to him about causes.

So I got to sign the Veterans Pleggians pledge. He was coming down to Plymouth just before. And that was one of the lowest times, actually, was when, because Plymouth doesn't get visits like that. We're miles from London. He was coming down. He's going to be the next Prime Minister. It wasn't so much the event, right?

But my kids were really pleased I'm meeting. They bought new dresses, my girls and stuff, and ready to meet him. And then literally he cancelled that morning, right? you obviously don't do that. I've never done that to anybody. I would never do that. So there's times where I absolutely want to rip his head off. But I feel, you know, Rory would probably disagree with this. But I think our politics are broadly, you know, not a million miles apart, right? But when Boris came in, Roy made a clear decision that he was going nowhere near this guy and that this was his view on him and he wasn't going anywhere.

I had a lot of sympathy for that, right? But the way I saw it was that in that moment, I could have I could do that I could leave him and you know and ever you know most of what Roy says about him is is true in terms of his personal character and so on but the way I saw it was my job as a politician

right was to go there and to force through this fucking change right and make it happen and just you know come what may I had to be friends with them or not friends of them I you know because there were people out there who every day that there's not a clear mental health care pathway for veterans right is you know is it matters

And so I could have, yes, gone, do you know what? I'm not serving with this guy. He does not share my values. I'm going nowhere. But I thought my role was to be like, do you know what, Johnny? You're really lucky. Okay, you've become an MP. It's ridiculous, frankly.

You never went to university. You know, you suddenly become a minister. You are in this incredibly privileged position, right? Go and use it and cause chaos and get this Northern Ireland of Veterans thing on the agenda, get this veteran thing on the agenda, and move the dial on it. And yes, you're going to get churned out in the process, because Boris will inevitably let you down and he ended up sacking me.

But honestly, I thought that was my role. And, you know, I didn't really care of the damage that did to myself. And that's a different way of thinking about politics. And I respect that. And you need people like, we're already in politics, are going to be like, you know,

I'm not doing that. For me, you kind of have to deal with the realities of the situation. And I felt like, yes, you know, is this guy the greatest thing since slice spread? I mean, you don't need to brain the size of Roy's to work out that this, you know, it wasn't going to be an easy thing.

But I honestly, in that time, made a decision that I was going to try and shape a Boris Johnson Premiership rather than anything else that was coming down the line, even though I was much more politically attracted to people like Rory. But that's a different way of doing politics. I thought the whole time I was there was an incredible kind of imposter syndrome. And I was going to blow the doors off while I had it because it was all going to be over. Also, you say that he sacked you, but actually the account of the sacking is just,

you talk about no waiter on a country. He phones you up and says, what's going on, Johnny, I've heard on the TV, I've sacked you, I haven't sacked you, what's going on? Yeah, it's pretty funny. It's pretty humiliating. Who are you sat by, the Chief Whip? Well, in the end, I mean, you know, the way these things work is just ridiculous. I mean, I think Rory had his ejection by text as well.

I mean, but I made a point of it, right? So I was called in by the Chief Whip, and it comes back to what we're saying in the beginning. Like, it's quite hard to go into a meeting and take seriously someone like Chris Pinch of trying to sit you down and give you a bit of life advice. You know, you're like, come on. I mean, where's the comedy camera? So you go in and he's, the Chief Witt was like, Boris wants you to leave the government. And he can call him Boris,

the prime minister, because they were, you know, if you say these things, it makes you feel more grand, right? That you matter and you're dealing in massive states. So the prime minister would like to like you to resign, is what he said. And I said, look, I'm not resigning because I'm going to see through this bill. This is what's committed to. But I'm going to go, I'm telling you now,

I'm going to go to the dispatch, what's tomorrow, as soon as this bill goes to the House of Laws, I'm going to say, yes, I am resigning because you've made very, very clear promises to this. a group of veterans from Northern Ireland. I've reminded you about them time and again. You've committed time and again to do it.

And the line is drawn next week, right, where these trials start. And I cannot be your veterans minister and do that. So I'm not going to make a big song and dance about it, but I'm just, I'm not going to be your veterans minister. And I'm going to know them instead. And he said, well, you're going to have to resign. I said, well, no, resigning is something you have to do, right? You have to make a positive action.

I'm going to resign. And I can tell you now, like, that is not going to happen. So where do we go from here? I said, and I made it easy for him. I said, to be honest, Mark, if you want me, go on, look me in the eye and tell me you're sacked. Say, Johnny, you are sacked. And I'll be like, no problem.

You're the chief whip. Off we go. And he looked me in the eye and then he couldn't. He looked at the ground. I was smiling at him, making it easy for him. He just looked at the ground like this. Okay, okay. See you tomorrow.

Anyway, so I walk out, right, out the wits office, start going down that little side entrance. And I get a text from Felicity. And she goes, it's on Sky. I just got Sky News Alert. you've been sacked. I'm like, what? No, I haven't.

I'm just, anyway, so you come out the side entrance to the House of Commons. This is the only bit that did piss me off because it's quite vindictive. It was on the side entrances, right, there's no one ever there. But they set up like a camera and a Sky News guy.

So like literally capture my reactions I was sacked. And then my phone went again, and it was a chief whip. To be clear, you've been sacked, right? I was a bit cross at this point, right? And I have many failings. And one of them is that I get a bit pissed off

and people treat me like that, right? because I work pretty hard not to treat people like that. So I go back to the flat, I'm sat there. I'm like, oh, God, you know, public sacking. Here we go. Phone rings, Boris. And he's literally like shouting from the office. No, like, hi, how are you?

It's like, Johnny, what the fuck is going on? It's come up on my TV. You've been sacked. What's all this about? I was like, yeah, you've just sacked me, Boris. He goes, oh, I haven't sacked you. What's happened here? And I remember saying to him, you know, and I did use the effort.

I was like, Boris, you are the fucking prime minister, right? I have now left your government I have been sacked I'm so sorry and I just thought like I mean it is no way to run a country right and you know that the way these processes work I mean we'll all laugh about it now right

but if you then cascade that down to people who really need to get shit done for them because they need an addiction service in Plymouth it's not actually that funny because this shit matters you also said this was a place where nobody was telling the truth that's a big big statement to make No, they didn't. They didn't.

And, you know, I provide clear examples of that in the book, where of course, you know, they don't 100% lie the entire time. I mean, that would be quite an achievement. But essentially, you can have really big integrity conversations like Northern Ireland Secretary. Have you started the work on this Legacy Act that we've been promising these Northern Ireland veterans who are protesting outside? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Go to see the permanent secretary of Northern Ireland office. no, not a single word has been committed to paper. Right. And you're then presented with two different things that can't equally be true.

Okay. And that happened time and time and time again. I remember when I was, you know, there's a spike in veteran suicide and I was determined to get out there and I created this thing called Op Courage, right? Where basically I pulled together all these different mental health care pathways into one pathway through the NHS. You can now go to any doctor or hospital in the country. Okay, you can say you're a veteran and you'll get on a veteran-specific program.

I wanted to go out and talk about this because there was a bit of a spike in in veteran suicide. Now I made a point, you know, it's probably one of my weak obsessions, but I made a point of meeting all the next of kin of those who took their lives during a certain calendar year because I found it was my personal responsibility, right, as Veterans Minister, if they were then killing themselves saying they did not know where they could go, then that was my, that was on me. And I had to go out there and I had to paint the town red and make sure that it was not a credible option for a veteran to go, I'm going to take my own life because I don't know anything about help, right?

Part of that is you have to go out on the media. You have to go on the Today program. And I remember, you know, the head of communications at the time. I mean, six years earlier, he was dressed as a chicken, right, running around trying to get quotes off David Cameron. Next thing, he's the lead communicator for the UK government. I mean, this is not serious stuff, right? And he'll say, no, you're not on the grid tomorrow.

And I'll be like, I don't care. I think it was actually at the time were boycotts. It wasn't coming. Oh, sorry, yeah, they boycotted everything. Like, they're not talking to the media. I'm like, fine. That's fine for you, right? But I'm getting this message out there

because these guys are killing themselves saying they don't know where the help is. I know where the help is. I'm going to tell them through the platform of media. Really straightforward stuff. And I remember saying to him one day, look, can you tell me that Boris has told you specifically that I'm not to do that today, program tomorrow?

He's like, yep, he said it's me just now on the phone. Phone up Boris. You're like, hey, Boris, apparently you don't want me to go on today's program tomorrow. Don't be so ridiculous, Johnny. get out there, do this. This is brilliant stuff. You're then presented with two different things that cannot equally be true from very senior people. So somebody is lying, right? And we don't like to talk about lying in politics. It's all, oh, I misrepresented this. I misrepresented that.

I mean, it's bullshit, right? People know right from wrong. And yeah, for my sins, I had a zero tolerance approach to that. And people can, you know, people can and did and do laugh at me for it. But I think it matters. I don't think it's a game. I don't think it's a consequence of sport and I'm not even sorry for it. Okay, Rory, Johnny, we're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, I want to talk to you about your childhood and in particular about mental health. Welcome back to the rest of politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alastair Campbell.

So the reason why I think Rory says you're a sort of outspoken commentator on the nature of politics, you've written this book and the title kind of gives you the theme, no way to run a country having been through government. But let's go right back to the beginning, because there's George says you've got quite a backstory. One of eight children growing up in what sounds to me like a very, very strange cult. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult because obviously my parents are still alive and there's still people involved in that. But look, I think, you know, there's fair amounts about it in my first book. It was a pretty challenging way to grow up, I think. And lots of people

have it, so it's not unique to me. But yeah, sort of cultish behavior, I think, is never healthy. And it's certainly had a profound impact on my family and it you know and I suppose my life as well so yeah I think any of these environments where you're um insulated and isolated from the reality of growing up in Britain today is is unhealthy and that's certainly the case for me and when we use the word cult what do we do yeah so I mean it's it's very sort of constrictive behavior right so you don't have television at home which you know probably think is a good thing but no pop music you know you wear the same clothes and everything is around a kind of old test derivation, if you like, of God and behaving in that way. And look, it just creates an extremely

false environment, which means then when you leave it, as people inevitably do, as they grow up, and, you know, for me and my brothers, we went into the military, it's a pretty, you know, it's a pretty tough time. Just to understand how your parents arrived there, so they were very strict Baptist, that this was a very strict Christian upbringing. Was that something they got from their own grandparents? What was the family saw it? I think so, and this is, this is, this the issue with all these things and why it's hard to feel bitter and angry about these things is that we're all products of our upbringing, we're all products of where we come from. And, you know, this is the way they grew up.

And obviously, the world was very different when they were growing up as well. You didn't have the internet and all this ability to kind of interrelate, if you like, with people from different backgrounds and different areas. And so, you know, you kind of get given this stuff when you're very in your formative years as children. And, you know, there wasn't the ability to question it that we have now. and consequently, you know, unacceptable behaviour has become acceptable. And that's where the problems start. And so, you know, it is deeply painful.

I feel fortunate compared to a lot of my siblings because I ended up going to the military as a teenager and I had some pretty interesting experiences there. And then I've been able to, you know, I've got an amazing wife and family now. And so for me, I've very much left it behind. But that's certainly not the case with all my siblings. you know, those effects can last a lifetime. The positive sides, this, or maybe that's the wrong way of looking at it. I mean, from the outside, I've got no idea at all what it was like growing up.

But if you were to say quickly to people that you didn't have television, you had quite a simple life, some people might think that's quite a good foundation for childhood. So why doesn't it quite work as a way of bringing up kids? Because, you know, we're all worried about social media at the moment. We're all worried about our kids getting overwhelmed by the modern world. Why does it not quite work to go to the extreme in the other direction? Yeah, I mean, there's two things, though. I mean, one side of it, on the face of it,

sometimes these things taken in isolation, perhaps aren't so bad, reducing exposure to that sort of thing. The problem is that that increases a fairly sort of insular world where unacceptable behaviours around things like violence become normalized. And the problem is with creating a world that is so different to the real world when you go out and get a job and grow up and have a family and all the rest of it, is that inevitably these baked in behaviours from when you were, you know, five, eight, twelve, fifteen,

it really challenges your worldview. You know, it's quite a difficult thing growing up anyway, makes that even harder. And the problem is, I think, the effects are more profound the later it goes in life. So I think as a child, you're quite resilient. As a teenager, you're quite resilient in your 20s, you know, you're getting on with it. you hope, or certainly I hoped, that these effects would wear off as time went on. And I don't think it works like that.

I think that any sort of abuse doesn't work like that. So it's not these kind of standalone things. There's nothing wrong with not having a TV. There's nothing wrong with not playing pop music. There's nothing wrong with, you know, everyone wearing the same clothes per se. But the environment it creates is very, very fake so that when you then go into the real world and you have to get a job and have a relationship and get on with everybody else, You know, not allowed to have friends who didn't believe in the same things your family believed in is, I think, you know, pretty unhealthy.

And you can see that the world over every single day. So that's why I think it's unhealthy. One of the most powerful sections in your book is actually when you write about your own mental health. And I, listen, you and I've talked a lot about mental health in the past, and I know you've had this pretty chronic OCD, but reading it's one of the most powerful things I've ever read about OCD. just tell listeners and viewers what that means to you because I think a lot of people, you make the point, a lot of people think it's about, well, I've got to have everything lined up,

my clothes have got to be like this, I can't stand the plugs being on and off, but you're talking about something completely. Yeah, I mean, whenever I see people talking about ACD like that, it's quite frustrating, because that's kind of cute, fashionable thing to have, right? It's like PTSD, right? The reality of having these mental health conditions is horrific.

The truth is, like, it drives every single piece of, your behavior. It's essentially, you know, these compulsions to do rituals and behaviors to help you cope with pretty normal stuff. It comes from, you know, there's lots of arguments about where it comes from, but generally it's a kind of unstable upbringing where you don't, you know, you don't know the parameters of things. You know, for example, you think you can, you know, catch things off the street. And I write about it in the, in the book, how you can have completely irrational thoughts. But if you don't act on them, you will then have like a serious physical reaction to that around anxiety and things like that.

But it seems to me that yours is a lot about blame. You keep blaming yourself for things that aren't even happening. So it's a huge part of it. And I saw this really depicted really well actually at the beginning of the year on the BBC on a program called Inside Out. I mean, this is why I talk about it now. I hate talking about it, as you can tell. I find it quite humiliating.

But actually, what I want these people to realize is that you're not on your own, right? And there's a lot of us out there who are kind of mad than you think. and if we were slightly more judgmental, less judgmental, sorry, slightly more empathetic to these conditions, I think these people's lives would increase, you know, inorbidly. I think the number one thing that I've found over all of the years, even when I've got the most amazing family and wife and loving relationships, is this kind of intense sense of real isolation and loneliness. And that's the reason I speak out about it is because, you know,

last time I spoke about it properly was about seven or eight years ago, and this dad phoned me up, I was in my MP's office, and he said, look, I've just read this stuff about you in the evening standard, my 16-year-old boy's got this condition. He will not talk to anyone about it, not me, not the doctor. He's read your piece, he loves your story, and he'd love to speak to you. Would you speak to him?

You'd be the first phone to speak to him. And I just don't want these people to be on their own, because it's tough, right? It's really tough. But I, you know, I do feel this compunction to show that you can keep up with everybody else and keep the show on the road and have a good life. Alas, can I just come to you on this for a second? Because this tension that Johnny's talking about,

you've been through a version of, which is he's saying, firstly, it's quite difficult if you're in public life talking openly about this. It can feel quite humiliating. Secondly, there's a strong sense of obligation that I need to talk about this, as Johnny says that, you know,

some of us are madder than people think and there's quite a lot of it's out there, and it's very helpful for people. How did you personally go through thinking about being honest about your own mental health? And does what Johnny says resonate with you? Yeah, it does. I mean, I can feel how you don't, I can sense you don't like talking about it. Yeah, I got sweaty hands. Yeah, I really like talking about it. Right. And I think that is because of my circumstances. I, when I first realized I had a really quite serious mental illness, it was very

public. I had a psychotic breakdown. I was arrested and all that. And I was in working in newspapers. And when I went back to work, there was no point not talking about it. And people were, were amazingly nice in the main. Okay. And then once I realized I was quite good at communication, profile and that sort of stuff, I just thought I can move the dial here. That's why I think what you've written here on a OCD, I think we'll move the dial. And I think as part of your dealing with it, you should embrace that. Okay. I'll try and do that a bit better. I don't know why you feel this sense of shame, really. I think it's... I don't feel ashamed at all. I feel really proud of going through it.

Really? Yeah, I feel proud of myself in moments when I'm I get through it and I'm able to overcome serious challenges, whether it was, you know, in the military or whatever. But the whole thing's like, it is like humiliating having OCD. Like, you know, I was walking up here from Embankment and you walk through some wet water and the guy's basically watering the flowers. You think, oh, I've just walked through Piers. Oh, no, I'm going to have to get some wet wipes and anti-packs and clean my feet before I meet Alistair. You know, last night, I got about three hours sleep because I was why the alarm wasn't going to go off and then I wouldn't be here. And no one sees that, right? If you're an OCD stuff and no one sees that, because you don't, you don't want to

talk about it and you don't want other people to see it. And it is humiliating. Like I'm a 44-year-old guy. I've had a pretty good career and so on. And yet I'm still worried about walking in piss in London. And it's not worry, right? This is what people have to understand. It's not like, oh, I feel a bit unclean. I'm going to wipe this. It's literally like paralyzing fear in that you're going to catch something from that. You know, you're going to get leprosy all over your face. You're going to get outcast in society. You'll lose your wife and kids, your job. It's totally irrational, but as you know, that is mental health, right? I just wish we were slightly more kind of accepting of that in a non-tokenistic way, right?

So everyone wants to talk about mental health, but actually when it comes to making provisions for it or actually understanding it, it's a bit like veterans care in a way. It's to a point, right? But beyond that, it's still pretty tough for people. But that's why it's also so important that people do understand what it is rather than what it's not. Correct, yeah, and this kind of glamorizing of it, really kind of upset. me in a way. It's like, I'm afraid, a lot of the veteran community have done with PTSD.

I know people have got PTSD, and it's a shocking condition that will totally paralyze your life, infect every part of it, and it's awful. But I would say, you know, and it's extremely controversial point of view, but, you know, the incidences of PTSD, if you speak to the medical community, remain roughly what they have been for many, many years. There hasn't been this explosion in PTSD that we've seen after Iraq and Afghanistan that has been done. diagnosed. And I get frustrated with that because if you've got it, you really, really don't want it. But I meet people who want to go and get a diagnosis of it because it, you know, because it kind of brings them answers and so on. And I just, I think that's sad. And we kind of need to regain it for

the genuine, you know, the sufferers for whom it's there every day who don't sleep, who are up at two in the morning with their wife because something's gone off in the neighbourhood. And yeah, people will get upset with that point of view because, you know, people want to say they've got PTSD and they've had these experiences. That's fine. But I've all. always been in it and been in this sport for those who are, you know, the guys who are really suffering on the margins when no one's watching. You know, I kind of make no apology for that. And that's what I did in my veterans work. That's what I've always done. And of course, you'll get critics for that. Johnny, defense, Ukraine, Russia. So putting on your

sexual state for defense hat or thinking about the big issues, how would you communicate to the public about what kind of threat Russia poses, what you saw on the ground in Ukraine and what Britain should be doing about its defence. Yeah, and maybe just to add to that, Johnny, what specifically, because you know the department, what specific advice would you give to West Streeting who's literally starting right now as Defence Secretary? Look, I think defence in this country is obviously in a deeply challenging place. I think that we've got unique factors that are pulling it apart.

We've got a deeply historical view of this stuff, whereas the character and nature of modern warfare has completely changed. So I spent a lot of time in Ukraine setting up their veterans capability over the last 18 months. The injuries and the kind of method of warfare and what we call the TTPs, the tactics, techniques and procedures are totally different. You've basically had a navy in the Russian Navy in the Black Sea destroyed by Ukraine, which does not have a Navy, right? And yet we are still fixated on the fact that we can't get these ships out of dark and so on and so forth. And whilst that is a problem and a real problem, you know, when comes down to combat power and what we're able to actually generate to shift the dial,

we're not even in the ballpark of talking about things that really matter. So, for example, you know, stuff I'm interested in now is like the sovereignty of AI, right? And the way that Trump, for example, can literally just say on national security grounds, this model is not going to market, right? If you've built your entire targeting system or your NHS or public services on that stack, on that AI stack, you're in real trouble. And that is, that is strength and power now. It's not about the conventional wars of the past. And the winners are going to be those that are humble enough to adapt to it, who are quick enough and agile enough. Like Ukraine? And that's the problem we're not. So you go to Ukraine, right? And I'm meeting

these amazing people because they are forced to be agile. And they are forced to think in terms of technology. It's a race. It's almost like an industrial race, if you like. And it's built into every aspect of their society. So I love being out there. The young people hungry, you know, a lot of us don't realize how lucky we are in this country. Obviously, we talk about a lot of problems. There are a lot of problems, right? But you go and talk to some veterans in Ukraine and those who are at the front line of this. And life is really, you know, pretty bitter. And but they're young and they're going for it and they're ambitious and they're enthusiastic and they're determined and I think they're incredible people.

I love their mindset. You know, in this country, there's a big military mafia in this country, right, of people who think they're experts in the military. And I take my hat off to them and I'm sure they all are. But in, you know, in Ukraine it's different. Yeah. They're young. In my pot of shit, the veterans piece, they have to collaborate because the unmet need

is so great, right? So you can't have different charities slagging off, different charities, slagging off the government, right? You have to force that through. Whereas in this country, if you do one thing in defense, you'll get five generals saying you're doing the wrong thing. The kind of traditional territorial nature of the way we think about defense has to change. And you have to listen. I'm afraid to people like Al-Khan's who I know you're big fans of on this podcast.

Al and I fought together 20 years ago for the first time in Afghanistan, 2006, 2008, 9. Our family's gone holiday together. And he is nowhere to be seen in this new government. You know, and whilst I wouldn't comment on the current government and where they are, that is the sort of thinking you need front and centre. If we're going to, you know, the big thing, the big thing in the book and talking, you know, in our conversation here, there is a different set of standards and what's important in the governing class compared to those who are governed.

So they may view Al as like a disruptor who's not a team player, he doesn't get on with it. But actually, he's right on point around the challenges around defence. But he won't even, he won't get a look in, right? similarly, we're happy to recycle and reinforce bad behaviours and reward people who have had to leave office before because they've been caught doing unacceptable things and put them back in office. And the country sees that, I'm afraid. And they think, do you know what? You guys just don't really get it.

This is why we're in a tough position because there's basic, you know, and it comes back to the basics that I was talking about that I went and knocked on doors and in Plymouth. They're not really looking for new models of government. I agree with DeLucci. I think it's a great thing, right? but we're not we don't need to throw the baby out of the bathwater we're an incredible country with incredible people and i saw this in afghanistan right young people fighting with me you always had this when i was joining you know if you didn't lose a leg in the foreclones you weren't worth talking to and all this rubbish right these are incredible young people i see it in the city every day where

i'm working now in tech and ai um and we are supremely fortunate and we've got an amazing country you don't need to throw the baby out the bathwater you need to get better people in politics in government. If you have different standards in government, then you have in the country, it is not going to work, and that has to end. My final question is a bit heavy, but I think the part of the book I found the most challenging, whilst probably reading about your campaign for the Northern Ireland veterans and Afghan veterans as well, and, you know, I had a brother who served in Northern Ireland. I was obviously very closely involved in the Good Friday Agreement, and the overhang of that

still goes on. And I found probably the most moving part of the book was the story you tell of the guy who literally dies in a hotel room while he's going through this process. How do you get the balance right between the past is the past? Let's try and move on from this. And maybe some soldiers did do things which are unacceptable, even by the standards of a very tough military regime. and how that relates both to Northern Ireland then and also to the inquiry that's still going on into Afghanistan. Sorry to interrupt Johnny Astor. For the listeners, though, who aren't following this day to day, essentially Johnny's caught here with a dilemma.

On the one hand, what he's saying with Northern Ireland is that he thinks it's ridiculous and unjust to be pursuing 80-year-old people for allegations for what might have happened, for example, on Bloody Sunday in the early 70s. But he also, as minister, found himself caught up in allegations that war crimes had been committed by British forces in Afghanistan much, much more recently. And he's trying to deal with how do you, on the one hand, defend the honor of soldiers, say these are incredibly brave people who've paid the ultimate sacrifice, gone through trauma, we shouldn't be chasing them, which was his position on Northern Ireland and Iraq,

and also saying that actually maybe something's happened in Afghanistan that is worth investigating and the allegations are horrendous. They're essentially allegations of extrajudicial execution and torture. That's going through an investigation that I think was due last year, but it's still to report because I suspect that they are investigating allegations up to and including murder. Look, this is like a deeply painful and difficult space to talk about. I think they're very separate issues. Okay. In Northern Ireland, I think, you know, You can argue with the peace process, whatever happened. But what you have seen is, you know, an encouragement of those who are using violence as a means to achieve their political goals to then, you know, come into the state and get into politics like normal people, frankly.

And, you know, make normal nine the better place. I think, you know, and it's in the book where I spoke to you and to Tony about it and so on. I don't think there was this understanding that then the levers of state would be, you know, used to kind of look at decisions that had already, you know, prosecutorial decisions and, you know, contested circumstances are already been looked at a number of times and then view them through the lens of 2025 standards, right? And then think, your behaviour is unacceptable, you're 80 years old, we're going to knock on your door and we're going to try and prosecute you. I think everyone would accept that that is morally wrong. Clearly, bad things happened in Northern Ireland. And I'm not, you know,

people, I get the abuse every day for being defenders of war criminals and all this rubbish, right? The Afghanistan inquiry is different in that space and it's very clear to me that we separate those two things. Okay. The Afghanistan inquiry has to run its course. It's into incredibly serious allegations of a different magnitude to what I was trying to protect from. What I tried to protect from was this kind of industrial lawfare nature. You forget now, you know, in Iraq, you know, the Battle of Danny Boy in Iraq, there's a massive house. Sweden inquiry after that high court charge comes out and says this is the product of reckless lies and speculation. Fine. But what does that done to the soldiers going through it, whose kids

are reading in their papers that their dad murdered someone in cold blood and tortured and abused them, right? Or for them getting jobs. Some people have had their lives totally ruined by this. And the senior military and political leaders never ever said a word in their defense until I came along. That is the part of it that's disgraceful. Clearly, the behaviors that have been alleged in Afghanistan have to be investigated. And if they are true, yeah, it will be gut-wrenching. It will be a betrayal which I don't know how I will cope because I spent 10 years of my life advocating for these people.

But that's life. It's not about me. And you have to, life is difficult and messy and politics is hard. And it makes me incredibly sad. And the inquiry makes me sad. Obviously, I had a very difficult two days on the sand. and it's a deeply personal because for some of us

like Afghan was our whole life right we would read the books we try and think about cancer insurgency we recognize that it's not going well how do you change it and now it's like you speak to the parents of someone who's a kid died in Afghanistan

right? It's shocking they haven't changed their room since they left okay they don't receive anything on the day they died no one cares and this is their child their one child They had IVF to have this baby. They gave up everything.

You know, they went on camping holidays so they could pay for his education. And now it's like he's been rubbed from history. We've just got to think so much more deeply about what we do in the utility of force and the way we do the military and all the rest of it. And I will always be there, Africa. Only last night, I was on the phone to one of the parents of someone who died in Afghanistan. And they keep, you know, and I think they come to me because I get it. But I think we should all get it. And it's my job to make people get it, right?

This stuff matters. These people matter. Well, look, it is a very, very good book. Actually, there's a lot of read across between this book and Rory's book, I think, in terms of what's wrong with politics. I think maybe Rory's is, you've tried to be a bit more uplifting at the end than maybe Rory was in his. But I think you said deeply personal. It's a deeply personal book. You're moderately nice about both me and Rory, so, you know, that's fine.

But I think... We all have a... crosses the carrie. Yeah, I know you do. But I honestly, I think on the mental health stuff, on the veteran stuff, and on the nature of politics, I think you've, I think you've written a pretty remarkable book. So thank you for talking to us about it. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Johnny. So, Rory, my friend Johnny Mercer, as you used to call him. Look, I think Johnny is a genuinely extraordinary person. And I hope people listening take it seriously

as a way of thinking about who members of parliament are. Johnny's a very particular person, but actually if you were to dig into quite a lot of members of parliament, you would find some very, very interesting childhood's very interesting experience in the world. He writes, for example, about Bob Stewart, who doesn't get a very good press. When he writes about him, you see in the book how Bob Stewart actually had an extraordinary strange formation in his life. Another Tory MP, former military. Former military guy, yeah. But so I think that's the first thing that Johnny's very, very good at bringing to life who a member of parliament could be warts and all and make you understand who these 650 people are composed of. I think it's also, I think he'd be the first to admit he is like all of us, somebody of immense contradictions.

And people listening to this will pick up on what some of those contradictions are and some contradictions that he talks about more openly and other contradictions he talks about less openly. we talked about Boris Johnson, for example, where he's weighing up the fundamental question in politics, which is the kind of Machiavellian, listen, the end justifies the means, I've got to get the veterans things through, and if I have to hold my nose and work with Boris, that's okay, because I've got to get this thing done against another view that he has, which is very, very deep and equally held, which is why I think he's still struggling with it today, which is he cares deeply about truth. And even if he's not fully conscious of it, every anecdote he tells about. Boris Johnson is Boris lying. I mean, obviously, Boris sacked him. Obviously, Boris said he shouldn't go on

the Today program and then he calls him and says exactly the opposite. Yeah. Now, I think this thing about truth is really interesting because I got called a liar a lot and still do on social media and stuff. But actually, I think one of the reasons I found government so hard sometimes is I do find the scale of truthlessness in some political figures. I find it very, very difficult to deal with. my advice is always to people in trouble, you know, get as close as you possibly can to telling the truth all the time. And I think politics would be a lot better if

that were the case. And I know there'll be some journalist's role in the rise at that, but that, in fact, is always what has driven me. I got to know, Johnny, he talks in the book about his kind of curious relationship with both of us. It relates to mental health because I first really had anything to do with him. He writes

about this when I was going through a kind of manic episode and it was during COVID, And, I mean, Fiona's very, very used to this, but I was endlessly singing national anthems and changing the lyrics. And I ended up to my study, Fyodor Telibu to go, calm down for God's sake. And I went up to my study, I put on a suit and tie. I put on my brother's medals, which, as you know, you just never wear other people's medals. And I recorded myself singing this national anthem, which was about how much Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings loved each other.

I was clearly a bit unhinged at the time. And it clearly went absolutely crazy on social media. And I remember then Johnny Mercer, first I think on social media and then speaking to me saying, this is just outrageous. And of course, I then just dig in even more. You know, what the fuck do you know? Everybody in the military says you're a wanker and all this sort of. Just terrible stuff, right?

And eventually it was a former colleague of mine who phoned me up and said, Alistair, I don't know what's going on, but can you calm down? This is bad. And then of course I had a massive crash. But what was interesting, then we got to talk to each other. And that's why I do think he's a friend. I mean, it's somebody that we've, you know, I've been swinging the sea with him. And then, of course, he's talked about not being tribal.

During the last election, he attacked Fred Thomas, who was the Labor candidate that was trying to oust him. And essentially was saying, this guy talks too much about his own military record. And I think, and he says in the book, I persuaded you to have a go of him as well, because I am tribal when it comes to something like an election. But even something like that, he's saying, come, mate, what the fuck you're doing this for? As opposed to, I'm never going to talk to you again. One of the lovely things about Johnny is exactly that. He's incredibly, I don't quite forgiving, but he's very, very, very good in a kind of way that should inspire us all about reaching out and having a meal or having a drink.

Even when somebody said something pretty unforgivable about him, he's prepared to sit down. and talk it through and be honest about where he got it wrong and where you got it wrong. He's wonderfully self-reflected. You're completely right. I mean, I got really, really, really cross with him. And he mentions this, that there was this extraordinary moment that everybody was watching when Boris Johnson was collapsing. And finally, we were going to get rid of this terrible human being in Charlotton.

And Johnny got the first question at PMQ's. And I was like, this is the moment. Speak for England. take him down, because Boris was literally on the edge. And Johnny and said asked the question about veterans and then was put into the cabinet as the kind of sexual estate for veterans. And I was so disappointed.

And of course, a lot of what's going on here is Johnny and I relitigating this sort of impossible question for him, which is how does he weigh up what he wanted to get done with veterans? Because I'd made the opposite decision, right? there's a reasonable case that if I'd accepted Boris Johnson's offer to stay in the cabinet, remain as international development secretary, maybe I would have been able to use my position to save the 0.7%, save if it as an independent department, and use my political capital, do that. And I decided I couldn't serve it as cabinet, right? So I guess we're all scratching

similar things. Let's just get on to the substantial point, which I think is interesting. he says the system's fine don't throw the baby out with the bathwater you know he makes jokes about citizens assemblies I think he'd probably be the same on proportional representation and changing parties and changing parliament I'm not sure I agree

I think that there is a link between the structures of our politics the way the voting system works the way the parties work the way the incentives work and the kind of characters that emerge he's hoping that we could just get better people into parliament

with better moral characters My sense is that he's more right when he says, actually, many of these people were pretty good individuals before they entered Parliament. And something about entering the political system makes them into pretty unreliable, dodgy figures. And that must be about the system and the structure. And I've got to believe the only way of dealing with that is to try to change the system rather than just hope for better people. Yeah. Well, I agree with that. And one of the things I'm, I don't know whether I'm hopeful or optimistic, probably hopeful rather than optimistic,

I actually think that some of the ideas that Andy Burnham and Steve Rotherham wrote about in their book, I think if they followed through on some of those it could be transformative, but I think it could be so hard to do. You know, regional, get rid of the House of Lords, replace it with regions in the nations, perhaps linked to a PR list system of some kind. You know, that's big change.

You know, when I was, we were on the way here and Johnny and I met for a cup of coffee and he was saying, you know, well, first of all, why did he never stand? But then why don't you ever go in the House of Lords? and I was saying, I would never, ever, ever go in the House of Laws, and it plays a total joke, and we've got to get rid of it and replace it with something better.

And I think likewise on the regions, in a way what Andy Burnham has showed in Manchester and other mayors, Andy Street, I mean, he lost, but he did a good job. Steve Rotherham, Tracy Brab in New Yorkshire, I think Sadiq in London has actually done a really good job. Mayors have shown that if you give new systems to places, they can really develop in a different way that the current political system wasn't allowing them to.

And, you know, I was reading a fascinating piece in Foreign Affairs magazine last night. The headline was, why do autocrats hate cities? And of course, it was about Trump. Cities are unbelievably important to success. So actually, I actually think the idea of maybe Devon rather than Plymouth, or a Devon of Corwall, a privateist of devil of Corwall.

But listen, what I loved about the interview was, I do think he's a very honest guy. I think he's... And I worry that that maybe is why he did end up, as he calls it, friendless in Parliament. Well, they does give a very moving account, Rory, when literally, when you were friendless because you were sort of, you know, refusing to do this, that and the other. And you walked into the tea room and people were sort of giving you the cold shoulder. And Johnny says he came over and says, let's sit down and have dinner.

It's absolutely true. It's a very... I'm very grateful for that. And it's a very honest book. There's nothing in the book which I read and say, no, my memory of it's different, different from that. I thought one of the most interesting things he was saying was his radicalism on the new way of warfare.

We didn't have much time to dig into that. What he's saying there, which is basically that our entire military is fighting the wrong war, our ships, our complete navy may be completely maldesigned and almost unnecessary, that you need to be incredibly radical, drones, AI, etc. That someone like Al Khan's represents that disruptive vision of what it could be.

I actually think that's where Johnny's heart really is. And if one could harness that radicalism, which he's so good at when he's talking about defense and apply it to domestic stuff, I think it could be extraordinary. Again, I suspect when he's saying, well, just things need to just be run a bit better. I mean, basically what he's saying in Plymouth is,

We need better leadership, better running. Let's just get the social services running well, get the NHS running well, so it's just a management task. When he gets into something he really has been inside for 10, 12 years, like the military, he's actually much more radical than that. He understands the whole system and structure needs to be rebalanced. And I think that's probably true domestically as well as in defense.

Well, he did tell me on the way, Roy, that he'd become a subscriber to listen to your series on AI, and he said, yeah, Roy kind of knows, kind of gets it, kind of knows what he's talking about. kind of knows what he's talking about. So though I think I think this AI thing is going to be to be his will. My final thing is I forced out of him and I may may someday reveal what he told me. I forced him to tell me the identity of the Brexit person. Remember the bit where they were tried to get an MP to vote Theresa May's government for the Brexit thing? And this MP said they

couldn't vote for it because their dad had told them not to. And the whip said, but he said, your dad's dead. I said, yeah, but I had a, I had a seance. I had a conversation with him last night. He told me not to vote for it. No Way to Run a Country is the title of the book. See you soon. See you soon. Thank you.

Bye-bye.