The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 203. The Man Taking On Infantino: UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin

Episode Date: August 23, 2026

How did UEFA president Aleksander Čeferin lead the revolt that tore apart Gianni Infantino's plan to privatise the World Cup? Is Infantino finished as FIFA President after alienating the European federations who once put him there? What does Infantino's courtship of Donald Trump - from the FIFA "Peace Prize" to the World Cup red card scandal  - reveal about the collision of football and politics? Alastair Campbell is joined by UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin, to answer all these questions and more. __________ Search IG.com to find out more and/or Look for IG in your app store. __________ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [e-mail] __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith, Vasco Andrade, Lorcan Moullier, Caroline Kaye, Bruno Di Castri Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Producer: Evan Green Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Executive Producer: Bella Soames Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispoletics.com. World football is in real turbulence. Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA, widely criticized for getting far too close to Donald Trump and other political leaders, is now facing a fight for his own survival. after UEFA led and for now won the fight to block his plans partly to privatise the World Cup. My guest today is the man who is leading that fight. His name is Alexander Sephrin and it isn't the first time he's taken on the giants of the game. He played a similar role in stopping some of Europe's biggest clubs from forming a breakaway European Super League.

He's been president of UEFA, European football's governing body for 10 years, a decade during which football has become bigger, richer and perhaps more political than ever. Unlike the flamboyant Instagram obsessed Infantino, he keeps a very low media profile, does very few interviews. So I'm very grateful. He's agreed to talk to us here in Split in Croatia, where we're both taking part in a pro-am football match at the youth sport games. Two in five Canadians will hear the words you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, joined thousands in Toronto from.

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I think we have to start with football. So just very, very straightforward question. Is Infantino's plan dead or will they try to revive it? And will Infantino survive as president of FIFA? First of all, when you compared in the beginning, this plan with the Super League plan, I think this plan is even worse than the Super League plan. In the first case, clubs wanted to,

super important clubs wanted to do their own league, which is wrong. It would destroy football. But in this case, football would be literally sold. I'm absolutely sure that the plan is dead, but things get too far. Now, in football politics is sometimes

even more complicated or if you want dirty than the normal politics. So you never know what will happen in the future. But for me, the most important thing is that we stopped another try to sell the sport. I mean, it's hard to imagine what kind of people would sell the sport that belongs to everyone. So how does he survive then?

If that's what UEFA, which is probably the most important of the individual bodies in football, not probably. Is the biggest, the richest, the most important. How does he survive? Because in the end it's about votes. It is political. It's about the numbers. Tell me what you think he will be trying to do to survive.

Because he's clearly not going to walk, is he? Yeah, things are changing every day. Every day there are different discussions. I didn't speak with him. He didn't contact me since this happened. But there are two options. One option is that he realizes that he doesn't have to support. And that's not only a political support of the ones who vote,

but the political support of football community, the political support of fans, the political support of the players, former players, coaches. And the second option is that he goes to the elections in March. But in that case, I think he will have a candidate against him. I don't know yet who. No, you? No, no.

I'm not interested because of two reasons. One reason is that I love UEFA and I love working here. And I think that at a certain point, you have also, I mean, it's time also to enjoy life a bit. And let's see till when. And the second point is my credibility is much, much, much higher if I'm not interested in the position. And NASA at PSG, people talk about that as a possibility? I don't. I doubt. He also says to me that he's not interested. But it's really too soon. The date is 18th of November.

Let's see what happens till then. But I'm always fascinated by the power of football. You can do anything to people but don't take football away from that. It happened in Super League. It happened again. Now, unbelievable. unbelievable power of football. I mean, because the other thing is, of course, he's a European. He came from UEFA, and yet you now have 55 leagues in Europe, essentially saying you are

destroying football. How does he survive that? How does he even think he survives that? I mean, elections are elections, and the vote is of 211 federations. Now, what I hear is that they play on, you know, arrogant Europe. against us, they have enough money, but I help the small and the poor and stuff like that. But I think someone should remind him that he's a European and that he was supported by UEFA, which he forgot.

I noticed during the World Cup that you weren't very high profile. I think you went to Mexico, you went to Canada, you didn't go to the US. No, no. Deliberate? I felt a bit uncomfortable. I felt a bit uncomfortable because of the things that were happening with the referee, also with the Iranian national team, honestly. The Somali referee?

Yes. The one that you then got to do. The Somali referee and the Iranian national team and some other teams as well. And as president of UEFA, you're automatically a vice president, FIFA. Did he discuss with the vice presidents the idea of a FIFA Peace Prize and giving it to Donald Trump? No, no. I got the information about this, if I'm diplomatic, quite a strange price in the media. We didn't know anything.

We didn't know anything about that. We didn't know anything about this program to sell football. Nothing. Nothing. So that says, and you say you're being diplomatic, but that says that the guy has completely lost touch or has completely lost any respect for his fellow leaders in football. Yeah, I mean, the governance at FIFA on paper is,

clear. FIFA Council decides, the main things FIFA Congress decides, and things like that, President cannot decide by himself. We have bad experience with this organization for 100 years already. All the time, there are some problems, there are some controllers, there are some people who feel like kings. Why does football attract so many people that seems to be like that? They get to the top of football, whose values just seem so divorced from the people that they claim to want to help and support, but the people who love football? I mean, because of the influence of football, football is super powerful. There's a lot of money.

I think those two reasons. You know, if you are a volleyball federation president, you have much less influence. Talk me through the discussions at UEFA with the 55 associations when this plan emerged. And by the way, I've seen the full plan. It looks to me like something that Chad GPT could have put together in a few. It's not even, to me, a thought through plan. But it comes out, the Times and the Financial Times expose this. It comes out.

The whole world reacts to it. First of all, where were you? How did you find out? What was your reaction? Then what did you do to lead the boycott? I was on vacation with my family when I got from my colleagues, what Martin Zieglem from Times published. So that was the first you knew?

Yes. and then we did an internal meeting first. You should see, you know, because sometimes it's presented like the fight between me and him. You should see my colleagues how mad they were. They were worse than me. Colleagues at UEFA or the other federations? Both. Both.

And then we organized a video conference with 55 federations. And, you know, they offered 40 million to federations who have 5 million budget. But if you would see that 40 out of 55, took the floor. 40 spoke. It was two hours. They were so mad. And one of the smaller Federation,

because on one side was England, Germany, who you understand that they don't want that because also this money is not so big for them. But on the other side was San Marino, Cyprus, Liechtenstein, who all supported it. They said, we're not for sale. And one of the Federation president said a good thing. He said, this is like he would try to buy

my house with my money. Because it's the money of federations. It's not money of FIFA president or FIFA Council. It's the money of football. And 75% of this money is from Europe. 75%. So what some people obviously don't understand is that it's not a private company. For example, look, FIFA has 6 billion reserves

and they have much lower revenues than us. We have 500 million. Reserves. Yeah, they have six billion. Because you have to distribute. We are there to distribute. We redistribute 97% of everything that we... Because you earn much more money than FIFA.

Yes. By a factor of what? 4 or 5? Yeah, it's like two, three times more, I would say. Okay. But then you distribute more? Yes, we distribute practically everything. Show me one NGO that keeps 3%.

Of course, there's more. money so 3% is more than 25% if it's less money but that was such a unanimous reaction of the federations that I was touched with I couldn't believe that small big everybody just give me give me a flavor of that the flavor of the meeting you're online yes all online all online and you've got you've got 55 heads up there and they're all putting their hands up yes just give me a flavor of the things yeah I started then my general secretary explained the other part and two deputy general secretaries

and then they started to speak. They started to speak and you know you cannot teach anyone to speak like that. Everybody spoke differently. Everybody saw a different angle but everybody was unanimous that this is shameful, which for me is great

that football community is so strong and I was very positively surprised by Asian Football Confederation and by Goncaca. who joined. Of course, it's very important that we go out first because we can afford it. The others have a bit more of a problem because they're not, they're much, much, much, much, much, much small. You said the plan was dead, but let's just say, hypothetically, that he does survive, he gets 106 votes and he tries to revive this plan. Okay. The boycott threat presumably

stays if that happens. Could UEFA create a tool? tournament to rival a World Cup without UEFA? I'll try to be optimistic and say that it will never happen. But if it happens, but I really doubt it will happen, everything is possible. Everything is possible. We will not allow that to happen. And now it's not anymore about the project. Do you think it was interesting.

I saw Trump in the White House who's asked about it, whether he knew about it in advance, whether Gianni had talked to about it. and he basically said who? Do you think the political... Because what's happened to Infantino, he got too close to the fire. Do you think he's been burnt there? I mean, first, I doubt that the US president

knew anything about this plan. But one of the Kushners was involved, which makes me think that he might have done. Yeah, I doubt, but to be honest, I think you are naive if you think that a politician like that or any politician is your good friend. the moment you are a problem, you stop being a friend of a politician, usually.

What's your relationship with capital P politics? Professional. When I spoke with some of the prime ministers, they even contacted me about the Super League, and now about this project. They were super positive and they tried to defend football. Of course, I think it would be a huge mistake for a politician. not to defend the sport that everybody loves. And to say, no, no, it should be sold.

Nobody would do that. But maybe some of them, I'm sure some of them are also honest. And tell me about the, let's go back to the Super League, European Super League. Again, how was that put together? When did you find out about that? How did you make that decision to say, you know, we have to fight this as well? Just talk me through that whole process. I heard that they were preparing it for a year or two.

You just heard on the great point. Yeah. And we heard some rumors about it, but we didn't believe, to be honest. So we agreed with the back then they were called ECA, now they are EFC, the clubs. We signed the new format that is now. And I thought it's a very, it will be a very easy Congress in Montreux in Switzerland. So I went by car, eight, nine hours drive, because. I thought it's just something easy.

I got a phone call from a friend in the US who met one of the owners of the English clubs who told him that they are preparing a Super League. Then I got a phone call from another English clubs, one of the big six. The president and he told me, look, we have to be in because or we are in or we are out. And Anielli is with us.

And he's a close friend. Yes. I was a godfather of his daughter. So I called Anielli, he doesn't answer. I called his wife. He says that he's cooking lunch or something like that. She passes the phone to him and he said, no, that's a lie. He signed one day before.

That's a lie. And then I say, look, let's do a press release. That's a lie and that's not true. that's not true and fine he says yeah yeah prepare a draft and then we do it so hold on a minute you said that my side of politics is bad yeah so this is the chairman of eventus yeah close personal friend yeah family friends and everything says to your face this isn't happening yeah and one week before he was in my house so so so is still a friend no not close to a friend uh so so i stopped at a gas station i prepared the

draft, I spoke with one of our communications guys, I call him, he doesn't answer the phone, and then he turns off the phone. So it's, I knew it's a bit... So that's when you knew it was happening? Yeah, yeah. Then I got, after that, I got a phone call from another club, another English club. They said, look, we have to be there and this and that, and then... Did you understand that, at least that sentiment, if the others are doing this, we have to be a part of that. Did you understand? Did you have any sympathy for that? I looked at those people a bit differently than the others. Who did you see as the real villains? It's hard to say. I don't want, now we have good relations

with everyone. The betrayal was from Anielli. I mean, that's clear. And then later, you know, me and General Secretary, we went to the Congress dinner, where we had 150 delegates, 70 delegates. I've never seen something like that. Because it was already in the media. It looked like a funeral. And then I said, guys, don't worry.

24 hours, this is gone. I didn't know what I'm talking about. So we went out and General Secretary said, President, 24 hours, come on. I said, I don't know. I had to. So I prepared a tough, tough, tough speech to attack them heavily.

and then I got a phone call from two English clubs and said, we will go out tomorrow, but don't be on a crusade in your speech tomorrow. Sorry, they said they would come out of the plan. Yes, they will pull out, but just don't kill us tomorrow. Then I was changing my speech at night. You're welcome back if you did a mistake, okay, mistakes happen. So it was quite interesting. And were they being truthful?

Yes, yes. They went out. Okay. So it was an interesting experience that probably shortened my life a bit. And is that plan dead? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, look, it might happen in 20 years. You never know.

But for now, we cooperate with everyone in a great way. And I don't think it. I'm sure it cannot happen in the next 10 years. But if you think about it, so when I was growing up, football was very, very different to how it is now. And I would be focused on football in England and football in Scotland. And that was pretty much about it. Since then, the game has changed.

European competition has become a much, much bigger part of it. Isn't there a logic maybe to some kind of European Super League being founded? What is the strongest argument against saying, why can't we have a league of the top, top teams playing each other? all the time. What's the big worry about it? First of all, if you look at the players in the best European teams, they are not raised in their teams. They're raised in smaller clubs. They start at the small villages, in small countries,

and that wouldn't happen without the system of financing that we have. We are giving 240 million for solidarity just for the clubs that don't play Europe. So this is one. Second, I think that they don't understand that this competition would be boring. You don't want to watch Barcelona, Byrne every week. You don't want. And, you know, also why football is so interesting and why it's more than a sport, it's a religion in a way.

One is that you don't need any money to play. But the second is that that's the only sport where David can beat Goliath. and it happens every day and that's the charm of football you would lose all this and European fans as much as they are difficult sometimes it's not only easy with them

they are in love with this game and they would never allow that to happen one interesting story if we have one minute so the final of Champions League 2019 Liverpool Tottenham I got an email from a fan

he said, I'm Trevor, I'm the fan of Tottenham for 40 years, my father for 60 years, and we'll never again come to the final and I can't get a ticket. So I said, send them two tickets. The day of the Super League, I get the email of the same Trevor saying, tell us what to do, we will destroy the stadiums. I mean, it's not just because of that. But that's this love for football. You do realize now that, having said that and told that story,

that every Champions League final now you're going to be inundated with the email. I changed my image. You changed the place. During that Super League period, I mean, you were up against some very powerful forces. Business forces, different parts of the world, the Gulf getting in the Middle East countries getting involved.

And I was interested how the PSG guy, NASA, he was on your side. Is that right? Him and the German clubs were on our side. And that was very important. It was important. Obviously, they understand football better. And sometimes it's strange to see that the person that is not from Europe understands European football better than many Europeans.

And you mentioned the Germans there, the Bundesliga. Am I being very naive in thinking that their model of ownership, 50 plus one, couldn't be a plan, which gives the fans of much, much greater state, say, than they do in the Premier League? Is that not a model that they should all? aspire to? Look, this model from one point of view is good. From the other point of view, except Bayern Munich, they cannot

compete on a top, top level because of that. So if we come back to the Super League, Karl-Heinz-Romanage told me if I would join, if Biden would join Super League, I would have to leave German forever. He said I wouldn't be safe on the street.

So German, German clubs were all so tough. You talk about football being a religion, you talk about it's importance in life and politics has to sort of take it seriously. How would you define the relationship between football and politics? People don't understand many times that governmental interference or political interference means that politicians cannot decide what happens in football. But from the other point of view, ethics influences all of us. Football is not on another planet. you know, even tax policy, different political decisions.

So it's very connected. I mean, for us in Europe, it's very good that fans really love football. Fans do everything for their club or national team, because that means that politicians will always support us because fans are the voters. You can never say I'm against millions and millions of fans if you are a politician. So that's good for us. As I said before, some I honestly love football and some are just pragmatic and smart. All right, Alexander, we'll have a quick break, then back for more.

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We dive into what's moving markets with timely analysis, trends, and answers to ETF questions you've actually been thinking about. Hit play on the upside ticker talk and elevate your ETF investing IQ. Welcome back to the response leading with me. Alastair Campbell with another AC, Alexander Sephirin, the president of UEFA. You as UEFA have to make political decisions sometimes. So, for example, when Russia launched the Bull Skael invasion of Ukraine, you kicked Russia out of European tournaments. Can I just ask you what that process involves, how you make that decision? Whether that's influenced by politics with the capital P or that's a football

decision and also why Belarus don't get the same treatment. Why you didn't think, well, they're absolutely part of Putin's operation, they go to. Belarus or Israel. Yeah, okay. So when this aggression started, we had a meeting immediately. Of course, you have a political pressure there. not directly but indirectly you saw that the situation is so complicated that if we wouldn't do it I think 45 out of 55 federations couldn't play because governments wouldn't allow them to play and when you say you feel it indirectly was there any do you get any direct pressure no no no no we got some letters later about Belarus but I don't think that look first of all I don't like boycotts I don't like that athletes suffer because

of political decisions. Do you think that a football player can say anything to Putin? In Russia. In Russia. No way. No way. So in a way, it's sad that they can't play for four years already. But it's simply impossible to decide differently right now.

We can then, if it happens that so many federations couldn't play or wouldn't be allowed to play, then we can just close the door. But trust me, athletes don't support war. At least vast majority don't support war. And they suffer. Generations suffer, you know. Politicians would at least have to understand that young people should play. Why?

Because they are raised in hatred. They are raised in a situation that Europe hates us. Our children don't hate Russian children. we don't hate Russian nation. Whoever hates a nation is an idiot, but unfortunately the situation is so complicated and from one point of view, we had huge political pressure

to kick out Russia. And we had almost zero political pressure to kick out Israel. And we had huge political pressure, public pressure to kick out Israel. And zero public pressure. pressure to kick out Russia. It's an interesting, quite a complicated situation and I hope this war stops finally. It's more than the Second World War.

Israel, Palestine is probably the most intractable, difficult political problem right now. What's the thinking in relation to that? How do you, you say if you've got a lot of public pressure, I remember I was in Ireland when they were talking about playing Israel and no way they're going to play Israel and you felt the sort of strength there. If you had that feeling, say, in Germany or in England or France, does that then, do you feel that pressure coming on you maybe to make a different decision or not?

No, I mean, as I said, I don't think that athletes should suffer because of... So it's got to be a really big thing for a boycott. Yeah, I mean, or that it would stop football at all. Because, look, I remember when Yugoslavia was under sanctions. And one of my colleagues in the council who was a player back then, Dejan Sávić, said, we were all against Milo Svich.

We were all a kind of opposition. But they flew to Denmark and they turned them around. They didn't even give them the fewer. They still hate some of those people. In the nation, there's still some hatred because of that. Because youngsters don't understand why we can't play football. Because of politics. because of even our idiotic politician.

I said to my people, to my colleagues, 17-year-old Russian girls and boys, they don't even vote. How is their fault that this guy started this terrible war? And yet those 17-year-olds can't compete in the junior competitions? No, for now, no. And that stays until the war's over. Yeah, let's see about the youngsters, but about the adults,

I don't think we can do anything before it stops, but we are hoping that it stops, but we hope for four years already. You mentioned Yugoslavia there. So we're at the U-Sport Games, which is a balkan initiative where you bring kids together from countries that maybe you've got a history of war and violence and fighting, and it's a fantastic event. Just first on that, just tell me your own story in terms of, so you served in the army. The army then was what? which country was that? When you were a soldier Where did I serve? That was Yugoslavia.

Right, so just talk us through the history from your perspective growing up, where you grew up, what that was like, and then how the whole thing broke up and Slovenia became Slovenia and these countries now came to exist as separate entities. Just talk us through that. Yeah, I mean, I was born in 67

in the socialist times. In the West, they say that it was terrible. in Yugoslavia is not, it was not so terrible. We didn't have much material stuff, but we were happy. We were always on the street. We did a lot of sports. I had a very happy, happy childhood.

It was obligatory for everyone to serve the Yugoslavia National Army. So I went in 1986, till 87, one year. Even then, I've seen that it's not very strong anymore. you know, because it was probably economical situation. Then in 1991, the end of 80s already,

it started some kind of turmoil in Yugoslavia, but mainly in Slovenia, about independence, and it was quite a complicated situation. And then I remember that June 9-1, we agreed with some colleagues, some friends, to go somewhere, camping or something like that. And I got a phone call from Amade, one of them saying, we can't go, war started.

Then I was called to Slovenian army to fight against the same army that I served five years ago. How does that feel? So you've served in one army alongside colleagues, comrades, you then have the breakup and you're then another army fighting against the people that you were with before. Yeah, it's very strange and thanks God it finished very soon in Slovenia. because we had the referendum and I think around 90% was for independence, so it was quite easy. I didn't shoot at all, and that's very good.

But it was strange. And then, you know, you see also the soldier of Yugoslav army. I felt sorry for them. You know, these were 18-year-old children who were called in the army. They were all scared. They didn't know. And the TV interviewed one of the soldiers. of Yugoslav army and they said what's going on and the guy says i don't know but they are like

attacking us and we are like defending so they didn't know anything they were children they were not skilled you know and then when it stopped we had to block the barracks and then these mothers came to see their children and you have to check them so it was it was tough it was tough but thanks got in Slovenia was easy, Croatia was worse, and Bosnia was a disaster. Bosnia and Bosnia was, that was really sad, I think, around 100,000. Yeah. How do you define the relationships between the different parts of former Yugoslavia now? Do you think it feels comfortable, relaxed?

I think it's completely comfortable between Slovenians and everyone, Macedonians and everyone, Montenegrens and everyone. Croatia and Serbia, I think that that's more of a political push. And there, of course, in every country you have idiots who think that patriotism is nationalism. But I still think that it's getting better and better. And what role has sport played in improving life in this region? I can say about myself, I'm not an athlete, but in every single. single republic of exeuslavia, they call me our president.

And I feel the same. To be honest, I feel different. I cannot support any country against the country of exeoslavia. Really? Yeah. At the World Cup, I was supporting Croatia and Bosnia. And to be honest, Iran as well, because I felt sorry for these people who had to travel in and out. Mexico.

Yes. They were mistreated. Yeah. You went to Scotland? No, Scotland went out too soon. I started to support and they were out, you know. Tell us a little bit, because I mean I'm an ambassador of this youth sport game. So are you. We're playing in the pro-home game tomorrow.

You're the captain. I'm the captain. I've replaced you as captain. AC, you'd replace his AC. Last night, I sent you a message because I was watching the girls final. And you've been a big supporter of women's football. I was watching it with Slavin Billich, Marcel Desai, and Sean Deich. They all said the girls were better than the boys. Yeah, that's interesting.

That's amazing. Yes, technically girls are fantastic. I mean, I watch Champions League final male and female. Technically they are very good. But physically, of course, they cannot compete. But, you know, my second final in 2018 was in Kiev. and we played male final on the main stadium, and then a very small stadium,

Women's Champions League final, with half empty and it was like 5,000 seats. Now we feel every stadium. So it's going up. I always say two things about women's football are important. One is you cannot expect a sport that is relatively young compared to male football, to be on the similar level,

because in many, of the European countries football was not women's football was not played 10 years ago and do you think we should think of them like that as separate sports not separate sports but you have to just understand that you cannot say okay the profit with males euro is

one billion and with women's if we come to break even we can be happy that's not or we lose money I say that's not a loss that's investment because it goes better and better and better and the second thing I the sponsors and broadcasters, you know, you should invest into the sports that it's relatively cheap. And it's still, you can invest much less money in the women's football and it grows

fast. So I'm very optimistic of women's football. Can we talk a bit about money? Is there such a thing as too much money for a player? As long as clubs are ready to pay, they're obviously worth that money. But the numbers went really sky high. Sky high and I don't know till when this can continue. And how do you feel about the kind of the seems to this sort of conveyor belt for the really good players? They go through a decade or so of top club and international football and they head off to Saudi Arabia.

Is that a good development or a bad development? Depends from person to person, I suppose. with some players who said that they would not go, no matter what money, and some players that for the end of the career they want to go there. I have to say, I have to show respect also to Saudi football and say they're really trying to do their best. It's not easy to start almost from scratch and then compete with the big leagues. I think that the thing that they should do probably more is develop of their own players because they're a young nation.

And I remember China, for example. I told the Chinese football president many times, if you buy players that cannot play in Europe anymore for a huge amount of money, that doesn't help Chinese football. You have to bring coaches. You have to open academies. You have 1.5 billion people. For sure, you have talents.

And it's also a bit, let's say, egoistic. Because if we would have a top Chinese player, that would be huge because NBA raised when they got Yao Ming being such a good player so I think that academies are more important then you can buy one star

just for promotion but I don't think they train properly I don't think they you know it was interesting in the World Cup of the 10 most populous countries in the world

China obviously being India being the two most populous. Of the 10 most popes only two are at the World Cup, USA and Brazil. Yeah. So it's not just about the talent pool. It's about the system you then put in place.

It's about system. And Europe has great system. Europe has great system. And look, Spain is not the biggest country, but they have probably the best academies. When you see these young players, it's really unbelievable. I even guessed right before the World Cup

and I said Spain will be the champion and my sister is a professor of architecture so she said that the doorman is collecting bets who will be the winner but she doesn't watch football at all so I said say Spain so she got 120 euros the last time I was here at the youth sport games last year in Sarajevo

Karanka former Middlesbrough manager now with the Spanish team he said to me that the last four teams in the World Cup will be Spain, France, England, Argentina. That's even better. He did even better than you. That's even better. Which is that which of the, this may be an impossible question. I don't know whether you even feel politically and diplomatically you can answer this. How would you rank the leagues, the top leagues in Europe?

Probably the Premier League is the strongest. Because? Because they have so many teams, competitive teams. So that's back to your Barcelona, a buy-in point. If you have the top of the bottom. Yes. Yeah. If you, I mean, in Spain, I think you have, let's say, three strong Barcelona Real, Athletico.

Germany, you have Bayern Munich and to a certain point Borussia Dortmund. Italy is changing. It was Juventus before, now it's Inter, but it's a bit of a... And in England, new strong teams are coming. I was quite impressed by Aston Villa now at the Super Cup. They were great. And in France, Pierre G is another planet. So that's why probably the Premier League is the song.

So we're coming towards the end. I want to ask you a little bit about yourself. So you mentioned a happy childhood growing up in former Yugoslavia. Essentially, you made your name as a lawyer. What are the skills in law that help you in football politics? criminal lawyer for 25 years. That helps. That helps. In 25 years of criminal law, I met less criminals than in two years of football. But I exaggerated a bit, but it helped. And, you know, in court, you have to know how to act. You have to judge people properly. So I think it helped.

And what, you say you're not going to go for the presidency of FIFA. One of your, one of the the proposals that helped you get elected was term limits for UEFA. So you're presumably soon going to have to start thinking about your own future. Yes, after UEFA, you never know, of course, you don't do plans for so long. But I would like to have a bit more easy life. I think I would spend more time at home with my family. So, you know, unlike some other people, I have life out of football. And I don't have time for it now.

I try to take another job like that. I don't want to jinx it, but I doubt. Tell me about the karate. So you've had the same coach for how long? Yeah, 28 years. Right. 28 years. And what does, I've never done karate.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, you look pretty fit. But what does it do for you? It's a great sport, you know, because you compete with yourself. You don't compete with the others. It's a kind of meditation, and my teacher is Japanese, who sees sports also from a kind of philosophical point of view.

So it's good. Now we don't train anymore because he had a car accident, but I think I will do it soon again. Final question. Gary Linneker, who is, you all know as a footballer, but he also has a podcast, not as successful as the rest is politics, but it's called The Rest is Football. So here's a clip from Gary.

Hi, Alexander. I think I'd like to reflect the concerns, perhaps, of many football fans, particularly around the financial fair play rules that seem to benefit some clubs and not so much others. I think people look at perhaps Manchester City in particular at the moment. I wondered your thoughts on that. And also, also, perhaps for me, the most damaging thing that's happened to our sport in the last generation, if not in the entirety of time, is VAR.

And I wondered if you had any influence or any plans to change VAR, perhaps to, an appeal system or indeed to get rid of it altogether, which I think most football fans would approve of. Yeah, first about Manchester City, we finished our case years ago, so it's done. And what is done, everything is done. So this is not an end. This is done.

Premier League is doing it still, and I cannot comment what they would do because I don't know the case. But you know the thing that leaves a bad taste for a lot of football fans, They feel that these new rules are brought in. In Premier League or in UEFA, because they're different rules. Both, both. I talk about football fans.

Football fans have this sense that Manchester City were getting away with it. Yeah, football fans also shout UEFA mafia, but I don't think we are mafia. So sometimes, you know, city fans think one thing, united fans. They can't both always be right, though. No, no, no, no. So that's why you need law and you need process. I think that financial fair play is quite tough. And do you think that's been,

do you think financial fair play has helped deliver on some of the things you want, which is to narrow the gap? Yes. Now, narrowing the gap is quite a problem, but at least to stop the gap becoming bigger and bigger. Our problem is that we are not police. We cannot come into a club and take and seize the documents and computers and everything else. we are depending on what they show us.

And about VAR, I think that VAR helped in some cases. It helped for sure in off-site case, but now we were discussing before this FIFA thing happened. Now it's not much discussion. That at least the torso should be in front. Because if you have a long nose or a long feet, it shouldn't be, it's not an advantage. So it shouldn't be offset.

But the off-side role, let's say it helped a lot. With handball, I don't think that it helps. It should be the decision of the referee. Look, we had top 15 coaches a couple of years ago, Zidane, Wardiola, Klop, Murino, everybody. And our chief refereeing officer shows a handball, a ball touching a hand over player. And he says,

handball or no handball? Seven says handball, eight says no. Top coaches. How can then a fan understand? I don't know exactly when the handball is a penalty or not. I mean, you know if it's like this,

but so that's complicated. And for the red card, probably it's good. This might use much, but it shouldn't be overturned then. You've raised the Balagan red card. What was your reaction? I mean, that was more than shocking. We have rules, and if you don't respect your own rules, then the game doesn't make any sense.

I mean, some of the federations, not in Europe, are suspended because of governmental interference. Now, here, president of a country says, I called him, and I told him to look. Look at it. And then PIFA president says, but it was an independent decision. I mean, for us as football fans or for us as a governing body, that's shocking. That's shocking. And trust me, almost everybody was shocked. Just not everybody there speaking. They speak when, because the rule says Red Card at least one match, suspension. It was also the fact that Trump was saying How would you feel if I took Messi out of the Argentina team

And then I'll also say I didn't understand that you get a ban if you get a red card So how is Infantino allowed himself to be so influenced by Somebody who clearly knows very little Probably cares very little about a sport that you say Billions of people love I mean first that's a question for Infantino not for me For sure But second I think that even the politician

if a politician is the biggest expert in football, you don't speak with a politician about it. You shouldn't. You can always say it's only one match. You can always, even if it's an independent committee, within the rules, they always care what is in the interest of the organisation as well. But within the rules, you cannot go out of the rules.

Was Balagan one of the reasons why you didn't go to the first? I don't know. I don't want to say that that was the reason. There were so many reasons that I decided not to go and I... Did you feel comfortable with that? You feel happy about it? I knew that the decision is right. Some of my colleagues said maybe you should go and they all say now it was the right decision. Because of what happened since then. Yes. Yes. Well listen, thank you very much for talking to the rest of policies. Thank you for inviting. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters.

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