The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 70. Sadiq Khan: Faith, power, and the truth about Boris Johnson

Episode Date: April 21, 2024

How much power does the Mayor of London actually have? Have we moved forward - or backwards - as a country when it comes to religion in politics? Should London take a leaf out of New York's book to boost investment in the city? On today's episode of Leading, Rory and Alastair are joined by the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, to discuss all this and more. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. TRIP ELECTION TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Election Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [e-mail] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Assistant Producer: Fiona Douglas Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispoletics.com. Right, it's Alistair here, and we're very, very happy to have Sadiq calm with us. Sadiq is, as most of you will know, Mayor of London,

a job that Rory Stewart wanted at one point, and who knows whether you'll want to do it again sometime in the future. But there's a lot to talk about with Sadiq. cards on the table, good friend of mine. I've known him for more than 20 years. He was a counsellor, he was an MP, he was a minister, and has now served two terms as London Mayor and is trying to get a third term. So we want to talk about his background, we want to talk about his childhood, he comes from a pretty big family. A dad was an immigrant from Pakistan. We'll go through all that and racism and what it's like having Donald Trump take lumps out of you and all sorts of

other stuff too. So let's sit down and talk to Sadiq Khan. Welcome to the rest of the politics leading with me, Alistair Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. Now, Sadiq, we like with our guest to go right back to the beginning. Yeah. If I'm not long ago, we had the son of a Pakistani immigrant bus driver sitting right there. We've got a club, you know. It's quite a small and exclusive club. There's a few of us, you know. Go ahead. Who is the report from you and Sajid Javid? So, Sada Vati. Bus driver? Yep. He then, he then became a became a businessman. John McDonnell, his dad was a bus driver, and there's a few of us, actually. We're quite exclusive, though, Alistair, Rory, so don't, you know, I know you're both jealous.

Can I come in, can I come in as this? That's quite interesting. Do you want to just give us a second on what it might be about being a bus driver? So look, I'm really proud of my daddy, but he's past now, but so let me be quite clear. It's not me being a snob about bus drivers. I've got friends who are bus drivers, and I was with some bus drivers yesterday. I think what it is, Rory, is when you are an immigrant and you're having to do a job that you're overqualified for, again, it's not me being disparaging towards bus drivers. My dad had a qualification of Pakistan, but actually he got better paid being a bus driver and it was a secure work. But you aspire for your children. It's a tough job being a bus driver, but you aspire for your children to go to

university, to get a career, to get a vocation. And that drive, particularly when you're the child of immigrants is compounded when you're working in a really hard job, you know, doing every shift you're being offered. Being a bus driver, you can be the recipient of abuse. And it's tough, right? And so you want your children to do well. And again, this is no way to be disparaging against those brilliant bus drivers that work really hard. Tell us a little bit about your father.

And, you know, what had he done in Pakistan? What were his qualifications in Pakistan? What did he say about why he came to Britain? Did he ever say that there were pluses and minuses to it with the things that he missed about Pakistan? What was his experience? You would have loved my dad and you both would have gotten really well. So my grandparents and Rory, you know the history in relation to partition. So my grandparents and their forebearers were in India.

And you know that in partition, making a generalisation, Alistair. If you were a Muslim, you went from what was, you know, mainland India to the Muslim majority part. That's West Pakistan and East Pakistan. It's now Bangladesh. Both my father's family and mother's family had to migrate from India where they were. My dad was in Lachnoe, in U.P. Lucknow. My mother's family similar. They left everything behind and went to the Muslim majority country, Pakistan.

So my dad experienced Rory being a migrant with his parents having to leave good jobs, nice homes, and so forth. And what were the grandparents' jobs? What were they doing in Lachnau? So my father's father was a civil servant. My mother's father was worked in Mumbai, and then he was. went and ran a mill in what was previously called Lylepur after Lyle, of course, and then called Faislabad. And so middle-class family doing pretty well in what was then India, leaving most of their things behind going to Karachi. Garachi was the then capital of Pakistan. It's now Islamabad.

But my father was frustrated at the inability to fulfill his potential in Pakistan. He was in the Pakistani Air Force. He first went to Australia, a place called Wagabar. Wagga, I think. He thought about setting there and apologies Rory, Alastard, all the Australian listeners hated it. So can I blame my dad, not me. Okay. That is the country where we have the second most listless. I know. That's why. And you were touring there recently, Alistair. So he went back to Pakistan and decided to leave the Air Force. He got in a bit of trouble for leaving Australia because he was supposed to stay there for X years and then tried London. And on the one hand, he fell in love with London. When my dad first came to this city,

there were signs that said no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. And by blacks, it meant anybody who was a person of colour. Notwithstanding that, he loved Londoners. And so he then asked my mum, my three-older siblings were born in Pakistan, to come and join him in London. I've got six brothers and one sister. I'm bang in the middle, which is why I'm perfect, Alistair. Okay, okay. That's what I told my mum anyway. And so, he turns up in 1968. it's kind of summer of love, it's kind of hippies, and he's a tight-laced Pakistani Air Force officer turning up in the middle of hippied in London. What was his sense? My mum comes in six two. He came three years earlier, and there's photographs of my dad, Rory, and the amazing thing

about that generation is they always wore suits and ties. It's quite remarkable. He would dress smart, he would dress smart whenever he wasn't at work. He first worked in an engineering firm, and he realized, though, that you could earn more money being a bus driver. And when I think back now, I think there's a lot of, you know, the class system applies in Pakistan. So for him, bearing in mind, he was raised in that class environment. Middle class. Middle class, right, to do ostensibly what is a working class job. Yeah. But it was his love of his family and, you know, that he did the job. And he had a great time, Rory. I mean, there's a great story he used to tell his past now, but where him and his mates, because there was no halal food,

they would purchase a chicken from a shop. And one of them, my dad was very, very strong. squeamish would do that Rory knows he's from his previous life, but they would sacrifice the chicken in a certain way, so it's compliant to Islamic law. And that was once in a blue moon that had to get to have meat, Rory, because they'd have to rely upon a pescatarian or vegetarian diet, right? And the joy of having meat once in a blue moon was just he'd talk about it and reveling it, you know, years on. You know, there was no places of worship. Congregational prayer was a problem, and so they would pray amongst friends in a home. But religion was important to my dad. He missed my mum terribly. And so a few years later, he managed to cobble enough money together to get,

you know, a room in a house in Ballam, which is in South London. And he invited my mum over, you know, my three elder siblings to join him. Is faith important to you? Yeah. I mean, I'm a, you know, I'm a practice of Muslim. And so, you know, I wake up, you know, just before the sun rises to do morning prayers. Every day. Every day, you know, so I'm at five today. You pray five hours a day? Yeah. Yeah. I fast during the month of Ramadan. You know, I eat only halal food. And it's, it's a way of life. So it's not just about worship, you know, Islam. It's about a way of life. How I respect elders, how respect the other sex, how I dress. And so I don't evangelize about it, you know, but people who know me, you know, see the way I conduct myself.

And, you know, I attribute that, I love that to my faith. But you get your faith in different ways. It could be organized religion. It could be political parties or whatever. So I'm not, you know, evangelical about persuading others to become Muslims. Did you find it in early life difficult in a working environment when you were fasting, explaining to other people that you were fasting? And were the moments maybe early on in your, I don't know, political career or parliamentary career where you were very tired because you weren't eating and you weren't getting a great deal of sleep and people didn't really understand that? No, when I was a lawyer, where I was a lawyer for 11 years, it affected, you know, it did affect my productivity during the month of Ramadan. I'm not scared to admit that. And so you do workarounds.

So I'd work late into the night when I was more Zipia, I had more energy and stuff in relation to doing the work I needed to do. When I became, you know, both in law and politics, a lot of these socialisation, the way you get yourself noticed is in the bar, right? The strangest bar, famously in Parliament, even the legal world, or are, you know, going to Barrises Chambers, going for a drink afterwards. And it can get quite boring drinking a Diet Coke or a water or a sparkling water.

Have you never? No, it haven't. And that's where you socialise. right? And so it's difficult. So I've always tried to, you know, be cognizant and conscious about creating an environment where everybody feels welcome. And so, you know, the reality is the phrase, out of sight,

out of mind. If you're not going to drinking with the boys, you're going to get promoted and so forth. And so, you know, it has been an issue. I remember when I was a minister, civil service is actually very good at organizing meetings, you know, around your diary. Alice Adelaide told a great story, you know, at the G8 and the G20 and when it went further afield,

finance meetings beginning at the Iftar, fast were being open so you could have a proper meal together with other finance ministers and so forth. And actually, the world has changed for the better, Rory, because people now know, the conversations I'd have when I was a child saying, what, you fast for the entire month? No, it's just going to dusk. It's not the entire month or whatever. And so people are much more aware now, which is wonderful, you know, and it's a great thing. But I see, sorry, Rory, you all enjoy, bearing in mind you mentioned fasting.

But when I first was asked by Gordon to attend cabinet, so Gordon rings me up. And he says, Sadiq, you know, I want to do the accent. Sadiq, you know, I want you to... Sadiq, do the accent. Go on, do the accent. Listen, I want you to come to cabinet and also be a PC, right? So, Pange's, put the phone down. Privy counsellor.

No, I'd no idea. So I ring Sue. No, Sue. I said, Sue, listen. Gordon's wrong me up, right? He's a police constable. Well, I'm thinking, what's a PC, right? You don't ask Gordon, because it's Gordon, right?

You don't ask Gordon, right? You don't ask Gordon, what's a PC? I said, Sue, Gordon's wrong. She goes, no, I know he's wrong. Goes, congratulations. I go, yeah, Sue, what's a PC? You didn't. I swear to God,

Arsunae. And then what happens is, and Rory's been through this, you then invited to Buckingham Palace to swear an oath in front of, it was the Hellate Majesty. And so before you go, a week before,

Bucking and Palace ring you up. And they say, you know, by the way, sir, which form of Bible join us swear? Is it the St. James's, King James's version or the English version, right?

And I'm thinking, the silence, I'm thinking, no, look, you know, I don't know what I'm saying up, right? Right? I said, look,

the Quran. And I kid you not, they said, we haven't got a Quran. Can you bring your own Quran? Rory, your friend must put, the next week. You must get this changed. So the next week I go to. Hopefully it has been changed. Well, I tell you where it has.

So I go the next week to swear the oath. My biggest faux par is I kissed Her Majesty's hand. He's supposed to be forehead and nose right. So firstly, I kiss a hand. Or with the lips? Yeah, yeah, with my lips. Do you know, do you know the noise? Well, no, because you're so, you get in the briefing, you're not listening though, are you?

Because it's so. And then what happens? I'm leaving, and you know her person? Rory, what's the queen's person called, though, sort of... So it's part of the equerry. Right, the equerry. The equerry, one of the military equities, yeah. So he comes down, he said, by the way, so you left your Quran behind.

And I said, you know what? I'll leave it for the next person. And next year, Seda Vasi, swore on my Quran. Oh, that's nice. That's nice. That's a very... She's on the podcast as well. She was absolutely wonderful.

So I can't believe you actually... I thought everybody knew that when you kiss hands with the queen, you don't kiss the hand. Alastair, unlike you and Rory, I don't move in those circles. Oh, really? So basically, so that day, Angela Smith, John Burkow, Michael Brown, quite a few, and forgive my language, for the next, you know, 15 years, whenever I see them, they take their piss out of me. Yeah, because you put the lips on hand. I kissed down, right? So, Steve, before we move on from family, tell us a little bit about your siblings.

You're one of how many brothers? So I've got three older brothers and one elder brothers and one older sister and three younger brothers. We're a close unit. So you're one of seven boys? Yeah, seven boys and one girl. And we're very close. We still live in and around Tutin. Here's the funny thing.

So my grandparents migrated thousands of miles. My dad migrated and mom migrated thousands of miles. I've gone one mile radius from where I was born. So I was born in Tootin. I was raised in Tootin. You know, I'd raised my kids in Tootin. I will probably die in Tootin. But my mom lives, you know, in the mothership, her home.

We all live within a one mile, two mile radius of my mom. We see each other quite often. And what do they will do? So, you know, one brother works for the NHS. Chess, another brother works for, you know, Visa Card. My sister's a teacher. Another brother works for the MOJ. Another brother works for, you know, in IT and stuff.

And so, you know, touch wood, we've all done pretty well. None of them ever thought of getting into politics. No, nobody in my family was into politics. And so when I grew up, I never saw somebody go to work in a suit. You know, I've thought about this a lot. And, you know, Rory asked about my family life. We were 10 of us living in a three-bed council property. I never felt poor, you know.

I didn't realize until I was a teenage going to a mate's home. People had their own bedrooms. I swear, I didn't know at all. You had a desk to work on rather than the floor or on your knees. I didn't know you went on foreign holidays. I didn't know you ate out of restaurants. And I never felt poor. We never felt like we were less well off.

It was a stable home, a loving home. Looking back now, of course, it was a tough estate. I mean, my secondary school was a tough secondary school. And you mentioned your dad, you know, these signs, no blacks, etc. Do you and your brothers, do you have direct personal experience of racism? Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, the P word, the N word, the W word. So my tier older brothers were Chelsea fans.

And they remember going to, there's a part of this, a sign of a bridge called The Shed. And being chased away by the NF who used to sell the public, the literature. Sorry, for listeners, that's the national front. Because of their experience, you know, I don't want to support Chelsea. And so... Which is a wise move anyway. So, and so my only experience, although I love football, I then started to support in Wimbledon. I was racially abused at a Wimbledon game by racists.

By Wimbledon fans. Wimbledon fans, assuming I was a spurs fan than using the Y word. Right. Right. And so my only experience of football then after that was watching it on football or on the radio or reading about it in the papers, which is why I sported Liverpool? Because they had Ian Rush, Rosh, Killing, the Oglies. Great team.

So people say, why did you as a South London and I sport Liverpool? Because, frankly speaking, my experience was one where going to match on the top of the time. hereses, you'd be racially abused by your own side. And what's your take now today, after two terms as mayor of London? What's your take of interfaith relations in London and more broadly in the UK, and also your take of where racism as an issue and as a problem is now? I think it's possible to hold two conflicting views at the same time. On the one hand, massive, massive progress made in our city and our country.

From in one generation, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. London chooses me to be their mayor, ethnic minority, religious minority, and by the way, that religion is Islam. On the other hand, there are serious problems. I think I can trace it back what the cause is, which we may want to talk about, but some of the language being used now,

the N word, the P word, the W word is back in circulation. It'd gone for many, many years. Generally speaking, I think there's community cohesion. We got on pretty well, we don't just tolerate difference, we respect it, we embrace it, we celebrate it. But I think bubbling to the surface, what you've seen is a normalisation of words we thought would accept all

and been removed from the English language and they're back in circulation and I can trace it back to the Brexit campaign in relation to people talk about political correctness. It's political correctness that means the P words not used, the N words not used, the Y words not used. And this sort of, you know, oh, it's woke not to use this sort of language or you're being politically correct by not talking about it

allows those who are on the fringes to now talk about it in the mainstream. I think that's a big problem, but we're all sorts of concern. What is it that you make when you hear conservative ministers challenge racism when they're themselves from South Asian backgrounds or minority ethnic backgrounds? I mean, there's quite an interesting change, isn't there, in the Conservative Party, which I guess you came into Parliament in 2005. It's kind of unrecognisive, isn't it?

You know, we've got Rishi Sunak, Suuadabraman, have Priy Patel. I mean, there's a lot of senior conservatives now from minority ethnic backgrounds, but they've tended either to sometimes go to the right. It's quite an interesting thing going on where you get people going to the sort of anti-immigrant right. And let's start with that for a moment. I mean, is there something, what do you make of all that? A number of theories I have, without a name of individuals,

I think some people try and overcompensate to be accepted. Assimilation, integration, we can have a conversation about both those words. But to be accepted by a tribe, you try and prove yourself and overcompensate. I think there's some of that going on. I think there's also the reality that the Conservative Party has changed, beyond recognition from the opposition we had when I was in government,

you know, in the noughties, to what it is now. The third thing I think is there's an acceptance of things in mainstream politics that wouldn't be accepted 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. I'll give you a couple of examples. Rishi Sunak can't utter the word Islamophobic or anti-Muslim, to describe Lee Anderson, right? He removed the whip, but for what? He's not, right? This is when Lee Anderson, Tory MP, said that you were controlled by Islamists. I mean, these are clear, slavophobic, anti-Muslim, racist tropes, conspiracy theories, lazy untruths.

Sunat couldn't call him out for what he was. Now, is that because he's so scared of his parties, it's moved to the right, he's scared to do, so he feels weak and vulnerable? What is it? What do you think it is? I mean, what is your sense when you hear that stuff? And what do you think is going on in his head? I think Sunak is a decent man. So I think it's more weakness rather than other things. I think Swallow Braverman is not a decent woman.

And so just she dreams about planes taken off for Rwanda. Some of the language she's used, and I think life experiences matter. My life experiences mean that I'm always vigilant about, over or covert racem because I've walked it, I've experienced it. It's so upsetting when you're the receiving end of racism. The red mist descends and you act in a way that it's difficult to explain unless you've received it. And so I don't understand how people with those lived experiences behave the way they do. By the way, Kamberra-Katras, Sajidjavid, say the vasi,

but just privately, publicly, publicly calling that behavior on their side. And I hope, you know, friends of the Bible will say, in real time, I called out some of the stuff, place under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership with my Jewish friends, colleagues and neighbours as well. You said, I've interviewed you a couple of times for GQ and I did one interview with you where you said these three words, Sadiq, I like Boris. Is that still the case? No. It's not the case. Let me say why I explain, I said those words. He's personal. He's charming. I'll tell your story in 2008 when he was running against Ken Livingston. Ken Livingston's people asked me to call Johnson a racist.

And I said, I've got no experience for being a racist. I don't think he's a racist. You know, he's a cheeky chippy, he's clearly right wing. But he's a socially liberal Tory. You know, as Tories go, he's all right. The Boris Johnson, we've seen over the last few years, is anything but he's selfish, he's vindictive, he's an egomaniac, he's dangerous. and he should be called out for what he is.

I mean, I lived through being a citizen of this city when he was mayor, but I also lived through the consequences of his, you know, duplicitous behavior during the referendum campaign, but also his time as prime minister. I mean, look, one of the things I'm proud of is our constitution, it's unwritten, but the separation of powers, the executive, the legislator, you know, the judiciary. And this guy just risked all that because of vanity and ego.

And I saw his behavior during the pandemic. I say this deliberately and very carefully, Boris Johnson's behaviour as Prime Minister led to lives being lost, but otherwise wouldn't have been lost. And so he's not somebody I like. What was your insight into him? I mean, we saw him as Prime Minister,

but you will have had a very direct insight because you took over his job as Mayor of London. So what looking back might we have spotted about his time as Mayor of London, which could have given us a clue that he was going to be a terrible. Prime Minister. I want to talk about the good

before I get to the bad and the ugly. Look, this is somebody who rang me once I'd won the election to wish me good luck. You know, he gave me some decent advice on the phone. Which was? You know, just, you know, enjoy the job,

appointing the right people, don't rush. He'd made the mistake in 2008, rushing making appointments that backfired that had to resign after a few days and few weeks. Same as the Queen's said to Lus Truss? Well, no, but, and it was good advice. Look, give the man credit, it was good advice. I remember this is, you know,

I'm not shared this before. one of my daughters was unwell at the time when he rang me and I said do you want to say hello to the former mayor and she goes can I and said Boris said my daughter's unwell and Boris spent two minutes, three minutes these little things being really charming to my daughter saying your dad's not got the best job in the world and da da da da da da da da he didn't need to do that right he did not need to do that

that's the good that is important for the sake of balance to talk about some of the good the bad and the ugly oh my god I mean city hall there was some staff in city hall who'd not seen Johnson in months. He wasn't using the great staff we had. There was a report done in 2013 about how dangerous the air quality in London was. He buried it away.

Lives could have been saved had he shared that report, including the life of Ella Kissy Debra, a nine-year-old who passed away because of toxic air in our city. I went to see when he was Foreign Secretary. He asked to have a chat with me. I remember him and Will Walden was working for him then. And you could tell what he was saying,

we both had something in common. I said, what have you got in common? He said, you know, we're both princes across the river. I said, what are you talking about, man? I'm the mayor of London. I don't, you know, and so he was already obsessant about, you know, trying to become the prime minister, pretending to be a loyal foreign secretary to Theresa May. And during the pandemic, his behaviour was unconscionable.

I went to see him. It was him, Dom Cummings. There's me and one of my advisors. And what was remarkable at this meeting, it was taking place in the March, you know, weeks before the lockdown. He had not read the papers. He was not on top of the detail. To give Dom Cummins credit, he was on top of the detail. And so when I suggested, listen, Boris Johnson,

the experience I've got from speaking to the mayor of Milan, the mayor of Seoul, is, you know, we need to think about, you know, bringing restrictions, locking down our city. He had no idea. He's got the foreign officer at disposal. He's a prime minister. He's not spoken to colleagues in Italy or Seoul. And I even said to Boris, listen, Boris, look, you're a libertarian.

I'm a passionate advocate for human rights. imagine if both of us are saying to Londoners we've got locked down our city because of this pandemic it'd be really powerful us both doing so together on a cross-party basis he initially said yes

let's do it let's do it tomorrow let's do it on the podiums and the next day he decided not to do so had we got into lockdown earlier you know I'm positive lives could have been saved

I remember seeing you during that period and you actually said that when you were in the room with them if you didn't know who the characters were you know, people would have thought that Dominic Cummings was the Prime Minister and Johnson was the aid. See, I've had the privilege of working with, you know, lots of prime ministers of different parties. A Martian in that room would not be able to tell who's the Prime Minister, Cummings or Johnson. And I find that remarkable. Can you imagine, you know, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, even David Cameron, that happening.

And if it's a peripheral issue, you can sort of understand. Not all of us are policy experts on everything. But COVID was, you know, a live issue. then, the most important issue facing our country, the guy didn't know what was going on. Okay, Rory, Sadiq, quick break, and we're back in a second. Hi, everybody, it's Dominic Samaruk here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away, and I was filling in and enjoying Alastair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History,

which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain, and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's

coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. And we'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson. And we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Can I come to your road as mayor of London? When I was running against you as an independent, one of the things that struck me is that people didn't really have a sense

of what exactly the powers of the mayor were. I remember doing an event out in the east end, Mylan Road and I said to people, you know, what do you think is going wrong? And they said, well, you know, this is going wrong with crime. This is going wrong with transports, going wrong with housing. And then I said, do you think it's Sadiq Khan's fault? And they said, no, honestly, we don't really think he's got much power over those things. And it was a real kind of revelation to me because I thought, this is quite difficult. I mean, it's quite difficult because you're sort of in charge of some things, not in charge of others. It's quite difficult to locate power, difficult. to know whether you're meant to be blaming the central government, whether you're meant to be

blaming you, whether you're meant to blame. How are voters meant to work out who's really in charge in this confusing system? I'm afraid it's all the case. No, Londoners aren't really aware of the powers the mayor has and doesn't have. We are the most centralized democracy in the Western world. So to give you an idea of the scale of the challenge we have. I get to spend in London 7% of taxes raised in London. New York, 50%, Tokyo, 70%. Well, the mayors. The mayors. And so it's a big problem we have. We're centralized. We're the most, you know, it's centralized democracy in the Western world. And, you know, in my view, if take back control is to be meaningful,

they should be devolving powers to cities and regions, whether it's Andy Burnham, Tracy Brabian, Steve Rotherham, or indeed the mayor of London. And it's a big problem because we get the blame for things as mayors, whether it's Andy, you know, Steve, me, Tracy, whether having the budget and the responsibility constitutionally for those issues. Basically speaking, we're responsible for most of transport, most of the fire service, some of policing,

some planning and that's essentially it now we've got some convening powers we've got now powers around adult education the other things we do are over and above what we're required to do by statute the pompous phrase used in the legislation

is we are the voice of London but you're right Rory a lot of people don't realise the limitations of the mayor's powers but how do you come along then so like you've come along and said right we're going to have free school meals so where's your power for that coming

yes so I've got no powers in relation to this but it's an important thing to do because one of the things I've got to do... How can you do it if you don't have the power to do it? Yeah, so we've got two or three tax raising powers. One is there's a slice of council tax we can use for services like the police, the fire service and Charles London.

We also get some of the top-up of business rates. So if business rates grows, we get the growth. Okay. The business rates mainly goes to the treasury. We get some of the growth in business rates, but because of some of our policies have led to growth in London's businesses, is we can use the top-up we raise

from business rates, the growth, there's a discretion that we've got to use that business rate. So I can use it on a garden bridge. I can use it to buy water pennants. I can use that to do some work in relation to a Thames S Street airport. I told you you weren't allowed to get a campaign mode. Well, I can use it on free school meals. And by the way, you know, what I've announced, you know,

over the last few days is if I'm re-elected mayor, free school meals and primary schools will be permanent. Rory, when you were running for mayor, okay, imagine you had one. I think you had become London mayor. What would you have done that Sadiq hasn't done? Well, this is a very difficult issue because he's in the seat and he will say this is all complete bullshit. My basic view is that I felt you needed to really assert the mayor was in charge.

And you needed never to say, I can't do this because the central government's not letting me. That you needed to say the buck stops with me. the signaling's not working on the piccadilly line. I'm going to fix the signaling on the piccadilly line. If the policing isn't working, I'm going to get out there and fix the policing and that you would take power and do the job more as the chief executive.

Now, I can completely anticipate what Sadiq has about a say in response to that. So over to you, Sadiq. Firstly, before I say what I want to say, what do you think I want to say, Rory? That I'm, that I'm naive. I don't know. The job doesn't quite work like that.

Let me say two things. So one is, if I've been a cynic, I could say if I was a prisons minister and I failed to improve the prisons, rather than blaming the Treasury, I accept responsibility. And so one of the things I've sought to do as a mayor, which is my second point, is to follow saying, I once heard Tony Bensay, which is the best politicians are teachers. And Alistair spends a lot of time going to schools and colleges. And I think political education, public education is really important.

And that means educating the public about some of the causes of the problems and challenges we face. But you're right, Rory. When I reflect back, one of things I think I could have done better was to try and force the Tory government to devolve more powers to cities and the regions. And that's why when I speak to the other metro mayors, particularly during the pandemic, we were telling the government about what's happening in our communities in care homes, you know, in public transport, in hospitals. We were telling them about issues with PPE. And our frustration was we didn't have the powers, so we didn't think about it. Unless you're suggesting, you know, me either unilaterally declaring independence or a coup, there's not what we can do, right? Because my budget is on a good day, 20 billion pounds, you know, and so we're limited.

I mean, the OJ budget, I think it's like $5 billion. But if you're going to transform prisons, have a rehabilitation revolution, you need much more than that $5 billion. That's why you need the treasury support. I felt, and maybe this is really unfair, that you were a very thoughtful, liberal, progressive mayor, and you were a good teacher. But I sometimes wondered whether you were really a kind of chief executive, whether you were really a kind of manager who crashed into the details of things, put yourself in the line, pushed people around, really forced the stuff through. Let me give you some examples where hopefully I can, you know,

respond to your observation. So, so I think the previous man was a chairman. you know, he let the chief of staff do all the work. And I am a detailed person, which is why, you know, not only can I claim, you know, some sense of pride in relation to, for the first time in history of our city, every child having a free school mill, freezing TFL fares in five of the last eight years, the first time in the 24th history of TFL, we've got to operate in surplus in TFL.

I'm the guy that said to the commissioner, you're not doing a good enough job in relation to the systemic cultural issues in the police service, I've lost confidence in you. Whereas the government threw in the towel on high speed too, I persevered with the Elizabeth line, the most successful rail line in Europe. The same goes in relation to investing in youth clubs. More than 130 closed down over the last 14 years.

We're invested in youth clubs now. Over 700 youth workers lost their jobs. We're investing now. But I'll give you the biggest issue facing our city housing. When I became mayor, the pipeline of council homes was three. Not 300, not 3,000, 3. Last year we completed more than 14,000 in the last four years, more than 27,000. thousand more council homes being built any times in the 1970s, more homes completed any times

to the 1930s. We are responsible for adult education, a budget of 300 million pounds. I've made sure every young person is either unemployed or in a minimum wage work. It's free training to get better skills, to get jobs that are being created, but also we've worked with the private sector to help create in our great city more than 330,000 jobs by getting on top of the detailed, hospitality, culture, finance, legal, green, FinTech, FinTech,

really, really important, but also making sure we can, you know, have our status as a global city still there,

which is why I'm really pleased to say, once again, we'll have the Champions League taking place in London later on this month. Without a British club. Can I ask you about mental health?

You and I've talked about it before, and I think it's, you know, you do get depressed. And I just wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. When you say you're depressed, does that mean? And how does that affect you when you're in this kind of high profile position? Yes, I want to speak of blushes, Alistair. But you talking about it gave me the confidence to talk about it.

I felt it, you know, without any way wishing to be abusive towards you, if an alpha male like you can talk about it, that gives confidence to people like me. You know, I'm with the generation who thought it was a weakness. Could I really be a politician where people respect me if I'm talking about my mental ill health? and the fact that Alistair Campbell is talking about it gave me the confidence you know it just did and also to be brutally honest

Prince William as well I think him and he did something and I thought hold on a sec you've got the future king and Alister Campbell talking about this it must be safe surely

for me to talk about it and I'm also going to confess some of my staff weren't keen for me to do so and I think when I spoke to you you, I think you gave me the confidence to do so, and we talked about it. And then when I talked about it, the response was remarkable. People said, oh my God, and then them told them telling their stories and so forth. So the way I describe feeling a bit low or depressed, you know, is not to

medicalize it, but just to explain and articulate what it means. It means me not wanting to shave, me wearing jogging buttons, me not wanting to socialize with my mates, the one that want to do so. But what's great about thinking about it and talking about it is you then work out what things can stop you getting there. Because you know what? We do stuff that keeps us well without realizing that's what's keeping us well. So exercise, get up with your mates, going to a gig, spending time with people you love. Those things lead to mental fitness.

So we could talk about the stuff that leads to physical fitness. I actually think most of us aren't aware of the things that help us have mental fitness. And, you know, it's really important that I, because I've got a platform, I now talk about it, because I think, well, if you had an impact on me, even if I have an impact on one person, that's surely a good thing. And by the way, when I talked about it in the city hall chamber, one of the Tories sort of implied during the questions we had that maybe I should have stepped down if I wasn't feeling mentally fit

to my job. And you still think, this is why people don't talk about it, right? Because, you know, that's the sort of blowback you can get. What have you learned over time about your job? What do you think you're going to be better at in your third term than you were in your second term and what were you better at in your second term than you were in your first term?

So, Rory, when I was in Parliament, I think a combination of me previously being a litigator but also being a parliamentarian, I was very adversarial, very tribal. I blame Campbell, by the way. For the tribalism, there is out, Rory. And I realised being in May, you've almost got to have altitude.

You've got to try and be above party politics, which sounds weird, bear in mind, I'm running for re-election. And I think the voting system helps Why does it help? Because in London historically, you had a first preference vote and a second preference vote. And that meant that I, for self-interest, I've got to be frank, Rory, I used to court, and I still do, people who may be green voters and Lib Dems or other smaller parties give me their second preference. What happens is the first round of voting, you know, the top two go through, that everyone else's vote is transferred. So for selfish reasons, Laurie- Just come in on that for a second, because that's obviously changed. And one of the effects of that, so when I was running against you, my hope, was I'd beat the conservative candidate into second place, so I'd coming behind you, and I'd then be able to scoop up those Tory votes in the second round, and it might give a chance for an independent. This is basically how Macron did it in France. They've now changed it to a first-past

the post system. So it's now very, it's almost impossible. I think it's a mistake. To imagine an independent now being able to win in London, where it was, it was narrowly just about conceivable when I was running in 2019. It's worse than that, worry. Listen, for selfish reasons, I became less adversarial. And now I think I've changed for the better and I'm going to carry on reaching out to Greens and Lib Dems and so forth. But you're spot on. If this system carries on, if Labor doesn't change it,

I worry that someone like me comes from Parliament will continue to be out of the serial rather than trying to be somebody who reaches out, we don't have an aisle, but reaches out to other voters and stuff. And I think that's really important. It needs to better politics, small P, and less party politics, capital P. And I think it's a mistake that the Tory's

And Labor didn't block it, did they? They let it go straight through the House of Lords. I mean, it was weird. I was really sad about that. Because obviously, I thought the London electoral system was a really good thing. I think our first-passed system is broken. And I really like the fact that there was a small chance for an independent to become Mayor of London, which is now gone. Why do you think Labour weren't more active in blocking it?

Well, if Labor wins the general election, they're going to reverse that in London. They're going to go back to the old system, which is really important. They've promised to do it. What else do under Labor government to do in relation to? to devolution in relation to the powers of mayors? So the good news is, I mean, I was at a shadow cabinet meeting a couple of weeks ago with Kier and the team. And, you know, already the amount of meetings, you know, Kirstalmers had with all the

Labour Metro mayors is, you know, I think we've met four times in the last year. And he's taken aboard the report that Gordon Brown did about, you know, regions and nations and how they're hot-wired into Westminster far more. And so what we went from a Labour government is more powers devolved to mayors, more resources devolved to mayors that should include tax raising powers as well I'm interrupting you very nautily

but just a little bit more on that because you had this astonishing fact that in New York they get 50% of the city revenue presumably Labor's not being that clear and bold yet I mean what would you really like to see in your dreams what sort of percentage of the revenue what did you say it was

at the moment and what would you like it to be it's 7% New York is 50 Tokyo has 70% of taxes raised in there What would you love? Well, the powers and what we say is, give us the powers and we'll raise more money for you, the Treasury. And so it's not a question of us taking money away from the Treasury. So what happens at the moment is we go to the Treasury with a begging bowl in relation to give us a better business rates, give us a bed of money for this and money for that. Give us the powers in relation to skills, in relation to apprenticeship levy, in relation to multi-year deals, in relation to the ability to keep the revenues raised in relation to development.

I'll give you an example. So the Elizabeth line, you know, is paid a third by the businesses in London, a third by taxpayers in London, a third by central government, allows to have more infrastructure projects funded in that sort of innovative way. What about tourists? You know, when you go to holiday to any city across Europe, you pay a percentage of your hotel bill that goes to the city. Which you do in Manchester.

To improve the local community, to improve the public realm. What about giving us more of the business rates? What about the council taxes that are raised, given them to councils and to mayors as well. And so there are things we can do around infrastructure, around planning, around housing, that will benefit the country. And, you know, other countries do it really well. We have the mother-of-all parliament, supposedly, in London.

It ain't working very well. Can I challenge you to be even more radical, even clearer? I mean, you're at the moment still phrasing it as, what about this, what about this? But can you give us a clear manifesto? In your dreams, Kirstama comes in. what would he really make the mayor of London's office be? What would be the great settlement

which would make a great mayoral position in the city? I think what the Labour Party manifest to have is taken on board all of Gordon Brown's report. It's not simply about the powers and resources, Rory. It's about us being hot wide into the Treasury, I've been hot wide into the civil servants in London. So rather than civil servants in Whitel, deciding what's best for Redbridge or Redcar or Redding,

those communities being able to say this is what we want. So it's not so many tax raised in powers, it's also about making sure that the decision makers are us who are nearer to where the impact is fell rather than civil servants in Whitehall. Do you think you've done enough on the dirty money?

London is a kind of magnet for dirty money. Margaret O'Hodgett, a very interesting report about that this week. So in 2015, it was first talked about London being the money laundering capital of the world. And when I became mayor in May 2016, I lobbied George and David, George Horsbond and David Cameron about this issue in relation to London being seen

as the easy place to launder money. And both George and David agreed to have transparency in relation to trust in relation to offshore because one of the issues during the campaign that arose was the housing crisis and the number of homes bought by foreigners, I think it's foreigners by the way,

some of my best friends and family are foreigners, bought by foreigners to use of gold bricks, often trusts held offshore. What justification can there be to have a blind trust held offshore? And so, you know, both David Cameron and George Osborne, provost transparency. We've still not had that with this ridiculous situation when Putin invaded Ukraine, where we worked out there was more than 2 billion pounds worth of property owned by Putin's chums. We said to the government, why don't you appropriate that property, sell that off and give the money towards your weapons for Ukraine.

Still no movement made there. And that's why we need the next Labour government to take action where the current government's failed. No, we did some polling recently, Sadiq, and I don't know if you listened to that episode. We talked about polling, but you didn't poll very well. Your favourability rating was, I think, only Sunnak and Johnson were worse. So there was a point when you were like the Golden Boy and everybody was saying, this is the man of the future. I think you look at the wrong polls, Alistair. So first, you need to change your pollster.

One of the things that we've got to do, and we've sought to do, you know, we'll do this over the next few weeks, is, you know, the elections aren't a referendum on our perfect or imperfect. the incumbent is. It's a contest. So what I say to Labor supporters is the choice isn't between Kea Stama or your perfect Labor leader. The choice is Stama versus Suna. That's the choice in the general election. And similar to the choice in the mayor election, I'm afraid it's a two-horse race. But do you feel that you, that you've just being in the job for so long and taking quite a lot of heat and having the President of America when he was there sort of taking pot shots and the Islamophobia stuff? Do you feel that you've kind of lost altitude in terms as a politician.

Listen, you learn every day, man. There's not a day I've gone to bed thinking that was a perfect day. Every day you learn, you've got to the humility to realize that, you know, there's things you've got to do to, you know, improve. But actually, I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved despite a Tory government of the last eight years. We've been roan against the tide of a Tory government. Imagine sailing with the winds of a lever government in our backs.

Interesting. When we had Andy Burnham and Andy Street in here, I don't even remember, Roy, but Andy Burnham said that there was a part of him that felt that it could be. become harder to have a Labour government when you're a Labour mayor. No, not tall. Listen, I didn't. So there's been, there's only been one time, you know, in London's history where there's been a Labour mayor and a Labour government.

We won the Olympics. We secured funding for the Elizabeth line. We built a record number of homes. Look, Kira and Rachel and Andrew and a vet and Ed, I'm going to write me a blank check. Of course they won't. But rather than being an obstacle, there'll be open channels of communication. And it's in all of our interest for us to get on.

We're the capital city. And I think it's anti-patriotic to always be slag enough London. and to be deprived us of our resources because we've got a Labor Mayor. When you look at the big global picture, look at what's happening in Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Gaza, how does this play into the way that politics is changing in Britain? What do you see as the connection between what's happening abroad and the way that politics works at home? Yeah, so 2024 is, I think, the most important year in recent history. Why? Half the world's population will be voting in some form of election or not,

whether it's the USA, India, Indonesia, we've had Pakistan, Bangladesh, our country, of course. And so it's a really important year. I worry about the rise of nativist populist movements across the globe. I worry some of the lessons Democrats learn is the way to win elections is fair, is division. I worry about the algorithms that exist that can amplify messages of hate so speedily. But also, Rory, if you're a young person now, you often get your news from TikTok. There's no impartial fact-checking.

There's no verification of the version of events you're being given. but you only receive messages that are one version. There's no other point of view. There's no argument, no debate. One of the ways I think about this is I'm speaking to you from the States, and I've seen recently a lot of young Indians who are completely horrified by the way Narendra Modi is behaving, and particularly discrimination against Muslims in India. And yet nobody's talking about that.

I don't hear you talk about that. Is that because people are worried about Indian voters? I mean, why are people not being more explicit about the damage and the harm that Modi is doing to Indian democracy? I think people are to be to give them credit. One of the things that, you know, I've sought to do is, you know, despite what people may think not always give a running commentary on foreign affairs across the globe, but, you know, you've asked the question, so I respond. I think one of the things that for decades, people in Pakistan regretted was partition. And you saw in Pakistan, particularly in the 80s and 90s, a rise of the religious view in Pakistan. And the counter from the secularist was actually, look at India is doing so well as a democracy. You know, minorities have protection and so forth. Modi has done is the way he's behaved, is playing to the hands of the religious views in Pakistan and say, aha, that's why we needed a country with the Muslim majority because Muslim minorities in India are being treated so apportionally. And one of the joys of India's always been is the biggest democracy in the world is a secular democracy that protects

minorities. And I'm afraid you're seeing too frequently examples of minorities being treated appallantly in India. And I'm really hoping the Congress party sorts itself out and there's a proper campaign taking place before the general election. And you can see a contest that's fair and even. And you can see the sort of voices that in the past have mobilized and being really active in India come to the surface. What did you learn from the Uxbridge by-election, both the way it went to the way that your policy, which originally been Boris Johnson's policy on Newles, became so fundamental. And how that seemed to have this kind of big impact, upon environmental policy more general.

And then the kind of consequence of that was sort of, you know, the ULES debate is still out there. I don't know whether it's playing a big part in this campaign. But I just interested in your reflections because it felt quite weird to me, the whole thing. So, look, one of the joys for democracy is you've got, mainly speaking, two parties with a conflicting views, you have an argument in a debate,

and then the public sees which side is the best debate, and they vote for it. You know, you live through the 90s, whether it's the minimum wage, whether it's, you know, Scottish Parliament, whether it's human rights, sex, whatever it is, right? I think when you adopt your opponent's view because you're worried about the argument and the debate, you see the results like you saw an Oxpigeon right slip. So the Labour Party campaign in that by-election

accepted the arguments from the Conservative against your policy. That ULIS is a bad thing, right? Why? Because the election happened to come inside a few weeks before the U-LES was expanded to include outer, London. Let me tell you this. A month

after the US was expanded, 19 out of 20 cars seen driving in outer London are compliant. Don't pay a penny more. 95% of vehicles are compliant in central, inner and outer London. But does that make you worry about what could happen in a general election? Because what you're saying

is they made a, I don't know if it's strategic but they made a tactical or strategic error and it probably hurt them. We'll have to wait and see what happens in my election in May. If I lose the election then they may have been right. And I was wrong, but I think sometimes you've got to make tough decisions. Look, I believe in, you know, leadership as well as fellowship when it's appropriate to do so. Of course, I want to win

elections. But sometimes you've got to, you know, as I said, you'd be a teacher and explain to people the benefits of your policies. You know, I remember as a 27-year-old listening night after night after night to people telling me that the minimum wage would lead to three, four, five, million people being unemployed. I remember as a councillor thinking, bloody hell, what's, what's Blair and Brown doing, man? Because we can't lose these jobs to put us to the country. But then listening to what Brown and Blair was saying and saying, you know what, yeah, that's the argument for it. We can't have a security card getting paid 50P and you've got to bring her on dog. How is that fair? We're on the argument. The Tories wouldn't

dream now of reversing the minimum wage. In fact, they're adopting a language. Osborne adopted a language, calling it a national living wage. That's the difference good politics can make. My final one, and thank you for coming, is to challenge you to reflect a little bit on what the toughest bit of being a politician is. And not in too schmaltzy campaigning mode, but something unexpected and personal, which listeners might not be aware of the reality of being a politician. So, I know the truth for answer.

I don't know what you say. One of the things I've always sought to do is to encourage others to get involved in mainstream politics. So I've not talked about, unless asked the question, the impact of having police protection, the impact of threats to me, the impact on my safety,

because what I don't want to do is discourage minorities, we see it with women, coming forward to be politicians. But, Rory, imagine being married to me or being my children, or being my mum, or my siblings,

or my nephews and nieces or the people Alice talks to at school, and then hearing, that frankly speaking, for another reason, because of the colour of my skin, my, think, origin, and the faith that I belong to,

I get some of the stuff that I get, which leads to somebody who kills people in mosques in Christ's church, having me named in his manifesto, which leads to somebody who drives from Wales to London, can't find me, so drives into a mosque in a fissionary park and kills a worshipper there, that leads to the leader of the free world, in a pathetic way, trolling me on Twitter,

for another reason, because, let's be frank, the colour of my skin, the God I worship, and so forth. How upset it must be to my family. So, so I went home one evening a few weeks ago to see distressed children because the deputy chairman of the Tory party said what he said in relation to me. And it, you know, it was that amid the Lee Anderson thing? Yeah, it's really upsetting. You know, it's just, you know, and so I'm not asking for sympathy. You know, I'm not a victim, Rory, but you know, you've asked the questions.

I'm giving an honest answer. It's really hard, Rory, because, you know, I lived through the Zach Goldsmith campaign where when I was selected as a candidate, so much excitement. I was having uncles and aunties and Asians and Muslims and minority saying, isn't it wonderful you're the candidate? We never thought it's possible. By the end of the campaign in 2016, oh my God, if this is what happens when you're a Muslim,

if someone like you's not accepted and you have this sort of hostile behaviour from the Tories and Islamophobia, actually, you know what, I'm not going to encourage my kids to get involved in politics. And I thought that was behind us, Rory, but it's not. If your kid said you, I think I'm going to go into politics,

what would you say? Do it. it's the greatest privilege of my life to be able to impact people's life for the better. You know, your experiences are everyday, just, you know, life-affirming and transformative. There aren't, you know, many jobs where you get the rewards that we get. I mean, you've both lived through it, you know, in different ways and stuff. You know, I challenge you not to say that it's, you know, you improving people's lives for the better is not the most rewarding thing you can have. Of course it's tough, you know.

But, you know, the bullies want us to be coward, right? Trump wants me to throw the towel in. And one of the things that I'm well aware of is, you know, if I lose and May the second, Trump's going to be chairing, some of the people that Rory talked about in India will be chairing, Netanyahu will be chairing, Le Pen will be chairing, you know, Albaid will be chairing, Duda will be chairing, and so forth. And so it's not me having conclusions of grandeur. It's the fact that the greatest in the world has a mayor who is of Islamic faith,

Pakistanian heritage and Asian origin is quite important. All right, Sidu. It's been, thanks for coming in. Been lovely to talk to you as ever. Good luck with everything. Love to talk to you. Thanks for having me and vote Labour on in a second. Okay, Rory. So there's the man doing the job that you wanted to do.

What did you make of it? Well, it's difficult, isn't it? To be objective when I ran against him. Look, I think there's so many positive things about him that people will have picked up listening to the podcast. I think he's got a lovely balance of humility. and introspection. He's obviously got an extraordinary backstory. He's obviously very, very proud of doing the job, passionate about it. I did feel, obviously, and this is the big criticism that I didn't want to get into because I don't think it would have gone anywhere. But I always have felt

with him that he's had a tendency when there's been a problem, not to say, I'm in charge, the buck stops with me, but to say that he can't do it because he doesn't have the money or the power from the government. And of course, there's something to be said for that, as he points out, these mayors don't have quite as much power as mayors elsewhere. Those figures with New York and other sort of global cities were pretty stark. Really stark, really stark. But again, you know, when I was pushing him on that, I think that's another clue to his mindset. I was trying to say, okay, here's your opportunity.

What do you really want in number terms? Do you want 50%? Do you want 30%? What's the plan here? What are you going to push Kirstama to do? And what I got is, well, you know, we should. sign up to the Gordon Brown thing and, you know, it's not all about the money, it's about the attitude of the government, this and the other. And that was interesting. I suppose that

is presuming, well, why is that, do you think that that's his response? Probably because if he were to say, we should be like New York, where the mayor has 50% of all public spending related to New Yorkers, people would think that's like just a sort of blatant naked power grab that will never, ever, ever happen because of the way that UK finances are run. through the Treasury, or he doesn't want to set himself what will be taken as a target, which he then doesn't meet. But I think there was something quite realistic about the way he was talking about that. In a sense, even when he was going through his powers, he was sort of saying, well,

I've got a bit of this and a bit of this and a bit of this. Now, you could say, you seem to be saying, you think that's him saying, I can't do the things that I want to do because these terrible Tory government people stopped me. But I just thought it was quite a realistic assessment of the power. I think he is very realistic. And I guess that's the question, isn't it, in political leadership? Where's the balance between being realistic, which is, of course, what civil servants have to be professionally? You know, these are my powers.

This is the budget. I'm not really going to be able to do that much. And where a leader comes in and says, I'm really going to sort this out and I'm going to change this. I mean, so that's, I suppose, you're right. There would be risk involved. And potentially also maybe are you suggesting that could also be able to be able to, political problem, which is that if he set himself up to say, I've got this different vision of what the Mayor of London's going to be, to what Kirstama has, potentially the media could create a

story about fights between the Labour London there. He wasn't at all shy about suggesting that he did think that the Labour Party nationally made a mistake in the Oxbridge by-election over Ulaz. Yeah, I think there is that. But also, I think that he's talking in, when you said to him, you know, what you want in the manifesto, and he basically said he wants the Gordon Brown report, which essentially is about further devolution, which then means greater powers for the mayor of London, whoever that might be. He obviously hopes that him working with the Labour government. And I thought he was interesting in that, that he was absolutely adamant in the way that Andy Burner wasn't, that it is far better for a Labour mayor to have a Labour government in Westminster

and Whitehall. Now, we'll see whether if there is a Labour government, whether that works out. But I don't know, I felt there was a realism. And also, I was quite, you know, I pushed him several times about this thing about, you know, because when he launched his manifesto for this campaign, his third campaign, he's putting this free school meals thing right at the top of the agenda. And yet, as he said, he doesn't have responsibility for schools. So that is an example of something, I think, where he said, I want to do that, I'm going to do that.

And I'm going to make the bits of the system through which I can do it work for me. Yeah, well, he's making, I mean, I think that's right. he's making a choice there on how he wants to spend hundreds of millions of pounds of his budget. Yeah. And he's making a choice that he's going to spend it on that. He's not going to spend it on fixing the Piccadilly line. He's not going to spend it on putting another X hundreds of millions of pounds into social housing. He's not going to spend it on, I guess, changing the way police sinks down or putting more resources.

He's going to put it into free school meals. So that's absolutely right. It's an example of him making a clear choice of what he wants to do and what he doesn't want to do. I mean, there's sort of things, again, I didn't want to get into this bit inside baseball, but another example of the sort of thing that has always frustrated me with him is, as you know, I'm obsessed with planting trees. And he had a... Yeah, I was surprised you didn't mention that when I asked you about what you would have done as mayor.

I was expecting a great tree and love it. Yeah, well, because I didn't want to get in an unnecessary fight with him. But, you know, he'd had a target in his first term in office that he was going to plant X million trees, and he just completely missed it. He didn't do it. And nobody really holds him accountable. I mean, that was this shocking thing that I was talking about in my land. When I was campaigning, people would be like, oh, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's wrong in London.

And then when I said, but shouldn't Sidney can't be fixing it, they'd be like, oh, yeah, but isn't that more of a ceremonial position? I'm not really sure he's got much power over that. So I think I'd like to see a mayor who's, and that's what I felt I got with Andy Burnham. That's why I'm a big Andy Burnham fan. Andy Burnham, you know, doesn't spend his whole time saying, I can't do this. He said... Oh, he does a bit. Oh, he does a bit of that, Roryko.

Well, less, less. I mean, you know, he did really bold... In 2019, he did some really bold stuff on homelessness. I mean, to give an example of the difference between these two mayors, Andy Burn and said, look, I'm going to fix homelessness in Manchester, and he made huge progress when London really wasn't making progress. And Sidney kind of sort of picking up things, but he picks them up, maybe because he's quite cautious, he picks them up behind other people.

So my sense, without being unfair to him, is, you know, I was talking about building council housing. I was talking about planting trees. I was talking about air quality. I felt more vigorously and powerfully in 2019 than he was. Later, he does this again, Andy Burnham. Andy Burnham really showed what could be done on rough sleeping. And later, Sadiq Khan comes in behind this.

Even on COVID, you know, we had a real standoff. I didn't want to get into this. But in February, when I was calling for lockdowns, he was still plotting along in the early days. I remember a big confrontation on Good Morning Britain with me and him, where he was still saying, oh, well, we have to listen to the government. I haven't had my briefing yet from the government. I've got to go and see.

So I think he's a wonderful person, but I don't think, contrary to the way he sees himself, that he's a big, decisive CEO. I think he's a great communicator, but I do think that he's more interested in the kind of representational elements of the job than really taking risk. Yeah, but if you think about the UNAs thing,

which, as we said in an interview, was a sort of Johnson thing, but Sidet, I think, has shown quite a lot of courage in taking that through. And air quality is another thing. He decided that was a thing he was going to improve. And he has. Yeah, he's done a really good job on those two.

And you're right with you, Les, because that was interesting, wasn't it? He said that, because I remember the predictions in 2019, I remember taxi driver saying to me, you can beat him if you're prepared to come out against you, Les, because it's going to cost people on low income, £67 a week. And as he pointed out that once he'd implemented it, it turned out that, I think, what did he say, 90% of vehicles turned out to be compliant. They were fine. You mentioned the COVID period.

What did you make of his analysis of Johnson and Cummings? Well, I think that's right. I mean, I think Boris Johnson really didn't. What wasn't suited for that, I mean, I think that's the problem with populism. Populism is all about broad brushstrokes, simple solutions. It's not about looking at the detail, learning what other countries are doing, trying to get your head around the science. So, oddly, Boris Johnson's problem wasn't, as people suggested, that he ignored. the scientists. Strangely, his problem was that he was actually a little bit too deferential

initially towards chief medical officers and deputy chief medical officers who really believed in the early days that there was no point locking down that herd immunity was something to look at. Do you remember, I can't get on my head that awful thing he did in the green room in Downing Street with Jenny Harris, who was the deputy medical director, where sort of, you know, throwing her softball questions to explain that there was no need to ban Cheltenham and there was no need to wear masks and it would make it worse and all that stuff. But I think that we've still got truss out on the rampage talking about sort of unelected advisors

and civil servants and others with too much power. But it was a remarkable portrayal of, and it's something Sadiq talked to me about at the time. And I remember, you know, because I used to get portrayed as this sort of, you know, eminence greys behind the throne. I always knew it was bullocks that Tony was the person in charge and that's how we operated.

But you really got a sense that Johnson was constantly looking to come for decisions. And Cummings was completely cynical and rude and brutal about that. I mean, in all these WhatsApp messages, he basically made it clear that he thought Boris Johnson was a shopping trolley. And he was in charge. I mean, that's, I think, probably the strongest thing I took out of this, that you or Peter Manelson or Jonathan Powell or Angie Hunter would never have been sending such sort of derogatory

WhatsApps about your boss between each other. No, absolutely not. In fact, you wouldn't have wanted to work for someone if you despise that much. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So come on then, Rory. You live in London. I presume you've got to vote.

It's first past the post. There's only two horses in it. Where are you going to go? Where are you going to go? Well, there we are. I'm not getting pulled into that. Why not? Why not?

Rory, you can't avoid that question. Well, because, well, okay, let me, I'd say he's a nice guy, but obviously I ran against him because I think we could do better for Mayor of London. And I didn't really like his, well, yeah, it's not a question of who the ideal Mayor of London is. It's just between me and this other Tory candidate. It's very defeatist. It is true, though. But that's because your old parties change the system.

Which Labor didn't block. I mean, it's really weird. I don't think, but Sidney made clear he is not happy about the new system and wants it changed back. Oh, come on, Roy. I think I've got to hold you feet to the fire here. Come on. We've got loads of listeners. Want to know who.

Do you want to vote for Susan Hall? I think it's already I'm afraid unfair enough that we've only interviewed one of the candidates in this election and I know you don't want to interview all the other candidates so I'm not going to lead the listeners on the basis this interview I had a vote. Look, let me just come back.

Final thing, Alistair, to this on you. I found running against Sadiq really interesting and very, very difficult because basically in those days there was a lot of sympathy for him as a person And I thought, okay, the way to do this is to really focus on performance, to really say, why has the signaling on the Piccadilly line not been fixed since the 1970s or, you know, why have we got knife crime going up? And I couldn't really win on that. And I wondered, do you have any advice or thoughts on those kinds of campaigns? What happens when you can point to things that somebody isn't delivering? But in the end, it's very difficult to convince the voters. Maybe it's just they don't believe that I'm going to be able to fix them either. You see, I think he, I think, I think it's the conservatives in this campaign have slightly played to his advantage by doing these ridiculous videos of sort of you know London and meltdown and then you know they found out that

actually was a scene from New York and and what have you so so actually I think Jeff by and large when they sort of portray London as this you know you can't walk down the streets safely and the Islamists on every corner and all this sort of stuff I just don't think it speaks to people's real experience. So I actually think you need something more realistic. I do find when Susan Hall speaks in the way that she does, and it's also kind of relentlessly negative and all the sort of the paper mile lying and all this sort of stuff. So put it this way, I don't think that's the way to do it. I think the way you have to do it, and actually I think it's how you were trying to campaign before your advisors wrongly, in my view, told you to stop banging on about trees,

is actually almost to say, listen, London is a great city and there's lots that's going well, but on this we can do so much better. I think that's the way to frame it. But I think if you're the party of government, I know you weren't, you were running as an independent, but for the party of government to portray the capital city as this sort of third world basket case,

it's just sort of, it's crazy. I think they lose votes from doing that. Yeah. Well, so the sort of thing that I was trying to do that I really wanted to lean into is yes, trees, but also that the Thames could be absolutely amazing, that we haven't really thought about how to really bring that amazing river to life and make it work for the city. I'd swim in there every day if it wasn't so filthy.

There we are. And yes, it's you swimming, but it's also, imagine what an amazing cultural venue it was and what you could do with boats and festivals and forms and things. Anyway, yeah, tell you who I'm massively in favour of, and you're going to tell me I'm an idiot, is the mayor of Paris. I mean, I'd spend quite a lot of my campaign, wumbling around Paris, sending videos saying, look, how terrific this is, couldn't we take a leaf out of their book on this, that or the other?

Oh, Lord, and Hidalgo, but she's so unpopular. Well, I was a big 15-minute city person. That was central to the campaign. I know, I know. That was one of the very conspiracy theorists that you fell victim to. Anyway, listen, I think you're right. I don't think we do want to interview all of the contenders. I think, I think Sadiq is a very, very interesting character in his own right.

And actually, I thought it was good. I did say to him before the interview, please don't come on. and just being full-on sort of campaign mode. And I don't think he was. And I thought his final answer to you was actually quite moving. Yes. You know, about the whole. And, you know, I've talked to him about this lots because it is sort of, I don't think

Ken Livingston had the level of protection, nothing like the level of protection, nor did Boris Johnson when he was mayor, you know, because there has been all this sort of Trumpian, Islamophobic stuff and the campaign that Zach Goldsmith ran, he's been made a target. And it's horrible for his family. And it's not over the top. he's absolutely right to get that protection. I think he is in genuine sincere danger and I think it's really important

that taxpayers provide that protection and try to support him because I think he is in a very dangerous position. Well, there we are. Enjoy Vancouver and we'll speak to you soon. Thank you very much, Helz. Bye-bye.