The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 8: Bertie Ahern: The Troubles, peace, and the future of Ireland

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

How did the violence of The Troubles come to an end on the island of Ireland? Bertie Ahern, former Irish Taoiseach who served from 1997 to 2008, speaks to Alastair about his father's time in the IRA, how Ireland has changed over the last three decades, and what it was liking working alongside Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley on the road the Belfast Good Friday Agreements. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive a weekly newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Email: [e-mail] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's therestispolics.com. So welcome to another episode of the Restis Politics leading. And I'm absolutely delighted to be in Dublin. And I'm very happy to be sitting opposite somebody that I've known for over a quarter of a century now. and who was fundamental to the delivery of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement coming up to the 25th anniversary. Welcome, Bertie Hearn. Thank you very much, Alistair. The honour to be on your programme.

I've got to tell you, though, Bertie, the first thing I'm going to tell our listeners is the fact that Bertie is not your real name. You're like a kind of Irish Boris Johnson. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel. Now, come on, tell us our listeners what your real name is. Well, Bartolomew is the real name, but I think my grandfather was a Bartolomew, and I think my great-grandfather was a Bartolomew, but none of them were ever known as Bartolome. I don't think I was ever called that. It was birthday from the time I was born, I think. And tell us a little bit about your childhood and about your parents. Your parents were pretty political, won't they? Yeah, they were, you know, they weren't in the political party, but my father was an active member of the IRA. The old IRA, as I said, back in the 20s.

And what did that mean being an active member of the IRA back then? Well, he would have been in, he was in Cork. And my father and mother were both in Cork. So he would have been in the War of Independence. And he was too young in 1916, but in the War of Independence, he was active. And he was jailed. He was in three or four jails during his time.

So he was out in active service. He was out with his gun. were you cool people he rarely rarely spoke about it I don't know but the unity was involved that were in the they were a cork

so it was the heat of the battle against the tans my mother and fove used called the tan war and then you know they would have been certainly in the thick of it and my mother was a staunch republic and

she they lived in the mountains in a very rural place and there were forever been raided and they the tans came and they threw her father

had very bad arthritis arthritis arthritis he was he was in bed and they dragged them out of the bed looking for information because where they lived was into the forest just in the edge of the forest so what happened the IRA used to go out that way and hide in the forest and of course

nobody could catch them then so he didn't give the information so they threw them over the ditch and they they left them for dead thankfully he didn't die, enough of problems. But what they did is they went out and they had a whole lot of geese ready for Christmas

at that time people, the turkeys and geese for Christmas. So the soldiers went out and shot all the geese, which was their livelihood. So I can tell you, my mother never forgave them. And just tell us about the tans then. Who and what were they?

The black and tans, you know, what happened was they were brought over from England. We were all brought up, believing they were all taken out of jail and brought over, but I think there were people who were probably in trouble in England, brought over to link in and give back up to the military. And you felt that they were, as it were, your parents felt,

and presumably you felt the same, that they were essentially like an occupying force. Totally. I mean, if you take where, you know, my father's end would have been a bit of a richer, better land in Corkham, my mother's place, and they, you know, they were seen totally as an occupied force coming into the most ruralist places in the country. And I mean, they did terrible things.

I mean, they burned places out and they killed people. And, you know, they saw us. They were back up to the army. But, you know, obviously the native saw them as totally the opposite. And did you, were you ever tempted to go down the IRA route? Not really. Like, my father moved on from, he would have always been a, you know, a United Ireland. Or me, he never changed his attitude.

and I always would have wanted to see your night iron. But certainly he went to Devalera roof and when Devalera went into, you know, set up Fienafal, went to peaceful road. My father supported that. But he would have been very much against partition, very much against the lamb borders

we call it today. And he would have been quite extreme in his views. But never supported the sectarian attacks on civilians and bombings and that. You couldn't understand that. People at that generation, and he totally understood going into the fields and the mountains

and having the gun battles and fighting it out, putting bombs in shops and cafes he just found. And what about taking out British soldiers? If it was out in the middle of the, you know, on the frontier, straightforward battle, you know, IRA guys against things, that was the way he would have fought in his day. So, you know, that was the view they would have had. But civilian targets are, you know, shooting soldiers

and lodgings or in bed or that. That wasn't war in their views. And you mentioned Fina Ful there. Just for listeners that aren't rooted in Irish politics, just to give us a sense of what the main part is. What's the difference really between Fina Ful and Fina Gale? Because you're not like a left-right spectrum. No, it's not left-right at all.

What happened was the, if you go to the 1918 election, Sinn Féin were the party, Michael Collins and Devalier and Arthur Gwiffith and all these people were all in Sinn Féin fighting for Irish independence the Civil War which, or not before the Civil War of Independence which my father was involved

they were all together fighting the British and then there was the 1921 there was the truce and the agreement and then what happened they divided on the terms of the agreements in 1921 and what was the basic difference between them The basic difference was really over the oath. You know, there was the, they differed.

It wasn't actually on partition, which most people make the mistake. It was actually the oath of allegiance, which they should have been able to resolve, you know, but they couldn't resolve it. And how would you define the difference today? Well, now, for years and years it came on, you know, what side your parents were in the Civil War. That was the difference. And that continued on.

because economic policies were probably very similar. Social policies would have been different because Fianna Fault tended to be small farmers, small businessmen, you know, blue-collar workers, as you described. Fina Gale were the legal class, the medical class, professional class. Now that blurred through the decades.

But it lingered on like Fianna Fault support. In my time, you know, would have been big working class support. If you were British, If you were in the British system, would you be Labor? Labor. Yeah, no questionably labor. I mean, Fianna Foll's supporters would be Democrats in America, labor in Britain. You know, so that was the same thing.

And would most Fenergale people be Tories? Most Fenergayal people, I think probably nowadays, in the old days, it would have been far likely to be Tories because the legal class and the medical classes. Nowadays, I'd say probably a lot of them would be labor. But it's amazing, but you find a lot of them, to go to America and make money, they tend to end up being Republicans. Finna Gailers manage to go.

So there is that DNA distinction. It's only fair to say, but in recent times, and particularly probably in the last 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement, I think it's probably harder to see the differences between Fienn Féin and Fiennigail.

Do you think that's been a benefit to Sinn Féin as a political course? Massively. I mean, that's where. Finafall have lost a lot of the that vote. They've lost two pockets of vote. They've lost the Republican vote, quite a lot of it.

And people who wouldn't go near Sinn Féin once there was trouble, but now that there's peace, they vote for them. And then the more working class, you know, people. I mean, Fianna Foll, traditionally, would have been the party

that had huge activists, you know, people out. And Sean Amas, one of the former Taoise said, you know, that the real Labour Party in Ireland was Fianna Foll, you know,

and that was having a lot. go with the Labour Party in Ireland rather than Yeah, yeah. But, you know, even today, now, the president of one of the biggest unions here is a member of Finn Fall in my local area. So, I mean, there still is that link. That link. Yeah. And just

give you a sense of how much Ireland has changed in your lifetime. It's a very, very different country. It's a totally different place. Even if you go back, I mean, I'm in 971 now, but even if you go back, say, you know, when my first real campaign

working, you know, I've helped out as a kid because a school teacher in 61 election stud, so I was out putting up posters and climbing trees and things like that. 65, I was beginning to give out leaflets and 69 I was doing my exam, so I did a bit. But in the first real campaign that I took part and it was to join the EEC, a European Economic Unit, and we were a community. So we were, that was my first campaign. But if you go back 50 years, you know, that time, the end. The industries in my area

Just take my area in Drunkhondra It was a button factory That implied a lot of people Mainly women, but a lot of people We were very proud to have it there There was a plastic like Macs that you'd wear A football game There was a Mac factory

We'd implied a lot of big And lemon sweets Which implied hundreds of people Like if those jobs are all gone Now all those people in those kind of things Are working in IT You know they're working in financial services You know

I was in good Google, which isn't too far from me last week, in a place called Barrow Street, the five different buildings there, about 8,000 workers. Now 8,000 workers may be in the UK style, doesn't sound a lot, but in Ireland, 8,000 is enormous, enormous.

You need to put the multiplier on, you know, can you take the population of 5 million, so 8,000. And these young people are all, you know, good jobs, and, you know, even though there's a few redundancies, it's very small now, and, you know, We have 19 to top pharmacy companies.

We've practically every, you know, TikTok has just made new announcements that have taken on a huge amount of more, you know, Microsoft. All the tech companies are here. And what about the role of the church in Irish life and society? It's totally changed. Totally changed. Your mother was very... Yeah, my parents would have been, you know, very strong Catholics.

Mass every day? My mother, my father would. would go on Sundays. And you know, I'd still be a practice in Catholic. But, I mean, my mother was a, which could be a tolerant person as well. I mean, she, funny enough, the road that I was, the avenue,

a small avenue that I was born into and still live quite near to it. It had a Protestant church, a Protestant graveyard, rector's house, a Protestant school. Because when it was built back in 1860 or something like that, it was a northern Presbyterian group that had built the place.

So it had a very strong, you know, Church of Ireland's tradition in the area. So a lot of my mother and father's friends would have been, you know, of Protestants. And a lot of the people that we would get messages for on the road were old people that, you know, were Protestant. So my father very much believed in that, you know,

republicanism tone thing of Catholic Protestant and the centre. And some of his best friends in Cork when he was in the Republican movement were also Protestants. Jay goes and gashes. So the idea of the sectarianism of the

North didn't rub with him because it was a different republicanism and that you know that is the distinction I think to this day in a way with you know you can't argue that you're a true Republican and have been out killing your Protestant neighbor. I mean that

was not the definition of republicanism. When did you know in yourself that you would end up being a politician yourself? I probably... You love campaigning, didn't you? Yeah, I love campaigning.

I love campaigning. I love campaigning. I'm probably unlike a lot of politicians that don't like elections and I like campaign. I enjoy campaigning. And, you know, we... When you're out there, you build up a big crew. And we were in an area which was, you know,

middle class, I suppose, but not upper middle class, certainly lower middle class. And, you know, I had built up... I ran, I was elected, to Parliament in 25 years of age I'd already been

in the party a long time and we'd built up a big support base young support base at the time and your parents weren't disappointed

that you chose that route rather than no no no they were quite I think they were quite happy that I ran

once I was running for Finna fall if I had around for Finna Gale I probably wouldn't me thrown out yeah I think I can see that

and as a so you're very very young as a elected politician pretty quickly building a reputation for yourself. And I guess if we're going to Charlie Hockey, one of the most famous Irish T-sheikhs,

and he was the guy that I got to know a bit when I was a journalist because he was kind of up against Maggie Thatcher the whole time and I really mean up against her as well. But how would you describe him in your life, a hero, a mentor, what? Yeah, he was a hero for us, you know, as grown up. I mean, he was my local TD for a while and then constituency boundaries. we have this awful thing of constituency boundaries change you. And, you know, Hahi was kind of a hero. I remember I probably met him first when I was about 10.

After an election, we had a children's party. And in those days, we didn't have many parties. He didn't have parties for your birthday or maybe Christmas. But there was very little money around those days. But he came down to the party and had given a whole lot of sweets for the party. So we were all kids, but we'd been out doing leaflets for them. for that today. Yeah, you probably would.

You probably would. So I would have grown up been a strong supporter of them. And, of course, when the troubles in the north happened, we tended to take very much his side of things. And he once said of you

that of all the young politicians was rising, and this was a praise from him, you were the most skillful, the most devious, the most cunning. Yeah. Is that a fair assessment?

We really appreciated him saying that. Of course, That quote came from a certain circumstances of negotiations that I was involved in with another political party, where it looked as if it was impossible to get an agreement. We got an agreement. So that was where you did a lot of training for your Good Friday Agreement days. Yeah, I think. And, well, most of my negotiations earlier on was with trade unions and employers,

with Ibeck and Congress of Trade Unions and another. So that's where I learned to trade. I should jump in and say that Bertie just want to bet because we're actually, actually in the building of Ibeck and we were challenged to get a mention of Ibeck and he's just done it. So that's one little to you. Another Charlie, Charlie McCreevy, he said of you, I know 25% of Bertie Hearn and that's 24 more than anyone else. So there's this sort of image developing of you as a bit of an enigma and people not quite sure how to work you out, which I've never really understood. I've always seen you as being pretty transparent, but where did that

reputation come from? I think it came from negotiations that it was involved in because I, you know, I was involved all the time in, you know, political party negotiations internally and with other parties, formation of governments, and from very earliest age, Charlie Hahi, Albert Reynolds,

you know, had me involved in fairly senior negotiations and I never did it purposely, but I think just, you know, your sense of things, I wouldn't show my hand until I had to show my hand and even some of the guys

negotiate with me wouldn't be quite sure which way they were being led, but so I think that's where you get the reputation from that. And when you were growing up, did you, or even when you first became a politician, did you always feel that you might get to the top? No, not really. I mean, my

intention, my interest in it, but growing up, it was sport, I had to go with every sport, probably mastering none, that was a problem, but I would have had everything my sister's played tennis. I played tennis. My father loved handball and hurling. And my father came

from a hurling end at Cork. It was all hurling. He taught the best game in the world was hurling. He's probably right in that. My mother was football, gaily football.

I grew up in an area where soccer was very strong. League of Ireland, we had our own League of Ireland team, Dron Canber and unfortunately gone now. I played a lot of school by football.

I was probably a far better soccer player than I was a gaily player. But I played both up until I was 35. My older brother was involved in agletics in running.

and all his life still involved in the National Stadium, Martin Stadium. So I used to do a lot of cross-country running. So did you become a politician because you had failed at sport? I came in politician that when I ran for so many people from sport knew me and I got elected. I don't think it was because the banner that I had on my name, I had been involved in so many sporting organisations in my area.

I think they all knew me. You've always been seen as a kind of man of the people, and you're one of those guys who I remember your famous Anorak that people were always telling you get rid of that bloody anorak and get yourself some proper clothes and what have you

and you're always kind of in and out your local pub and is that is that you or was that a bit of image going on? No no that was me I mean I was very much I mean I was brought up in an area where like you after training you went to the bar

you know and so all the guy and all the people who most of the people who canvas with me worked with me from a very young age were people I knew, you know, through sport and organizations, who would have had the same politics and many of them wouldn't have had, but joined up to the crew.

So that was very much our life. I mean, I could never understand. I mean, I was a bit of a security nightmare from my security guys because, you know, they say, well, you never go to the same place. You should go to different places, and you shouldn't do this. And I did all the opposite.

And that's the way it was. And I couldn't have function. I mean, my view of, you know, hanging around Parliament bars and pain in the neck. You know, same old stuff, same old story. So I'd go back to my local, to my local area, go into places that were considered not to be the places to go. And what did you learn from Charlie Hockey as Taoiseach when you became Taoiseach yourself?

I think he was very, Charlie was very bright, extraordinarily bright. His parents hadn't got a lot of money. I don't know. His father had been ill all this life. but he got first place in his chartered accountancy. He got through all his educational system on scholarships. And he was looked down on because of that. Now, afterwards he got into all kind of troubles,

because he ended up in a huge house and things. But I think a lot of it came from that, you know, from escaping real poverty. From this background, yeah. But what I learned from me, he was extraordinarily driven and he was efficient, and he'd meet everybody, meet every group. now he could be quite abrupt you know you could go into a meeting with him

and he'd barely say hello you know where I'd be the opposite he may be too short or a phone call he'd ring when I was Chief Whip you get a phone call and he said organised that social you know he wouldn't say good morning good evening good night what happened at a football game yesterday

so it would be very much a style I wouldn't have but he was very efficient he went in with every meeting known what was the objective what was I doing here you know was this all all of, no, that nonsense. So you learned that efficiency of using your day,

getting out there and meeting people. So he was very good from that point of view. Remember when your book came out, and I just looked at the day. It was 2009. Scary, scary. So long ago. Long ago.

And I interviewed you at the Cheltenham Festival. And I read the book, and I was having to look at again yesterday on the flight over. And there's a small number of people. You come over as a very nice. and you get on with everybody and what have you. There's a small number of people and things about whom you are absolutely vicious.

And they're a really interesting collection. Norman Lamont, former British Chancellor, the German Bundesbank, Oliver Cromwell and Dana, the singer. What is going on there? It's a bit of a cross and raised. But I remember Lamont and the collapse of the Holy Or and the exchange rate mechanism back in 92 and 93. And he just didn't give a damn about Ireland.

No, no. And the problems that that caused us, those currency problems, we were far weaker country at that stage. We were on the narrow band of the ERM. We were trying to tie in with a, you know, tie ourselves to the German market, our export market.

And, you know, the overnight bank rates after that collapsing were here 100%. And, you know, it really, really caused. us endless, endless problems. I mean, we didn't have big resources to fight. And the Bundesbank didn't help? The Bundesbank did nothing

to help us in those days. I mean, we were pushed out. We ultimately, in January 1993, had to devalue. Now, the only good thing was, but not giving the Bundesbank the credit from Brussels, we did get help in so far as we got a decent evaluation,

which meant that we only devalued once, for a lot of the other countries, that time, had they devalued two or three times, which would have crucified us. But it drove, the reason I was so, when I had with them, it drove them unemployment sky high. You must have been happy when Lamont said unemployment was a price worth paying then. Yeah, well, I can tell you. Now, Cromwell, I kind of understand, but I, you know, there's a bit, time when you're recording Robin Cook showing you around his office, and there's a, there's a painting of Cromwell, and you get absolutely venomous, and you say, this murdering

bastard, what's he did on the wall? He asked me what did I think of Cromwell, of course he was winding me up and I said a murder bass and I remember the civil service and you all got under the table but he also said in his memoir that I then refused to stay in the room that wasn't true that wasn't true about Donna

what did Donna do to offend you? Well Donna with some of the battles we tried to make some of the changes I was trying to deal with the abortion issue and we were trying to get peace between the Christian churches and the politicians and we'd almost got

so but Dana took up who I got on with very well but she took up an extreme position that you know abortion couldn't happen at all in any circumstances so and that defeated to referent so Tend it was left

another generation to do with now you got into you mentioned Charlie Hockey getting into financial troubles and do you think that's one of the reasons why people kept going after you and the one thing that comes through in the book the only time where I feel that you're really

really angry with anything was through that whole man tribunal process when they were going for you. I was because you know the man tribunal was about corruption in planning and it was there had been quite an element of corruption

planning maybe it wasn't huge but it was happening mainly to do with land zoning in the councils so the man tribunal I set up amazingly and gave them a lot of powers and left them off to do their job.

They then later on, they did get some successes. I have to give them some credit about some of the planning issues. But then two developers who I had little or nothing to do it came into the equation. And then they came after me, which was fair enough. I suppose to see if I got any money from these guys. They then proceeded to make me, you know, by judicial orders, to go back to 1984 in every account

that I had which included the period where I had gone through a separation and chase everything for and then I became nearly the central figure and then you know has they made millions investigating me but anyway

it was a nine so what was the what gives a bit of the context on the sort of corruption we're talking about that they were investigating money for planning applications and zoning zoning

that that the the councillors. The value of the land you're old. Yeah, the councillors were rezoning land and of course land went from agriculture prices to stuff. Now, they didn't find one eye outfit to do with me and all of that. And neither could they, because they never got a penny

from these two central figures. But of course, like a lot of these tribunals, they're set up for one thing and then they go off in another tangent. And then they, even though, you know, I had forensic accountants gave, put all this stuff together and everything, but they still just kept after me.

And of course, I became probably the T-shirt or prime minister, so I became probably the media. This was a good media game, so the media tended to go on their side. But it also emerged when you were finance minister, you didn't have a bank account. I think most people did find that a bit odd. Yeah, no, well, what happened was I had too many bank accounts,

maybe. I had several bank accounts, but there were all joint accounts. They were in my wife's name and my name. And I wasn't using them because obviously I was going through a separation. That's where the problem went. You had several bank accounts. As a result of what happened then, though, you resigned from the party. Yeah.

Yeah. And you've now rejoined. I've rejoined. I've rejoined the local area back where I'm back where I'm back. What made you leave and what's made you rejoined? Well, I think probably, it was becoming impossible. It was just so divisive within the leadership of the party. Every time they did a press conference, they were, they were in assail.

I just resigned. Some people said I might have been thrown out if I didn't. I'm not too sure that would have happened. I mean, if I think if I had went and defended myself, God knows what would have happened. I didn't do bother than that. I said there's no point to put more hassle on myself. And the reason I continued, while all the 10 years I was out,

I continued to help the party locally, work with the party. We did all the commemorations for 1916 in the party, so I was involved in. So there's no big deal, and we rejoined in my old buddies, and I've met them every month for the last 10. And this talk that it's about lining yourself up for a picture of the presidency. Yeah, I mean, I never brought that into it at all. And it's just the media, and not only the media, I suppose, in public opinion, said, oh, this is a big grand plan. Now, I said that issue doesn't arise, it might arise in a few years' time, and then I'll have to answer the question whether I have any interest or not.

You wouldn't have been taught about it. I don't rule it out. But neither. I ruled this out that I haven't done any thinking about it, whatever. I haven't talked to my kids about it. I haven't talked to my best friends about it. We haven't had a meeting of a lot of my old campaign team are dead, so I can't have a meeting with them.

And I've had literally no discussion. There was a few of them there at the launch last night of your podcast. I should tell our listeners that we have a rival podcaster in the studio because you've launched this rather splendid, I have to say. I shouldn't really be plugging somebody else's podcast in this way. but you've done this podcast series, nine hours, as I remember it, talking about what happened in the making of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement. You talked to Clinton and George Mitchell and Tony Blair and lots of other people.

And I just wondered whether you felt the, or whether one of the part of the reasoning behind that is that you worry that the whole story is being forgotten somewhat and maybe taken for granted. Yeah, I think, you know, there is no, you were there and I was there, but unfortunately a lot of the people that you and I got on well with and didn't get on well with over

the period unfortunately we're becoming a bit of a dying breed and afraid Alistair we've lost a lot and Mow Mo Mo Mo Mo Molyne McGuin David Irvin James Mallon David Trimble Yeah and it's a grown

number and then you know and then some of the earlier people you know Albert Reynolds is is gone so I decided what we should to try and do while the rest of us are alive to get to interview them, you know, long interviews, which we're putting out the long interview as well, because mainly for history, for historians.

And it's now, it's now on the curriculum for the leave and search, which is the, you know, the 18, 19 year olds here, 18, 19 year olds. In, on the curriculum, in Ireland. In Ireland. So they weren't around. They weren't born. And a lot of their parents would have been young at that time. So I think what I've tried to do.

is to get everybody that was involved and Tony kindly you know gave me a long interview and Bill and George Mitchell and you know the other key people across all the parties of what where they were at at that time you know what the thinking was

within their political movements and you know the compromises that were made so it's mainly I think people like you and I who have been involved throughout we remember most of it but there's a whole generation that just don't know and they know about the Good Friday Women because they've been listening to

Brexit every day for the last umpteen years. So they know that it's there and its agreement and it's meant to bring peace and it's meant to help the political progress but they don't understand how it was all put together and these are people who by and large don't know much about the troubles as all

of us did. Well we'll take a short break then we'll come back and educate people about the Good Friday Agreement. Hi everybody, it's Dominic Samerick here from The Rest is History. Now some of you may have heard me on your show the rest is politics when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alastair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History,

which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise. people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on

the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alastair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson, and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you

to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. So welcome back to leading with me, Alistair Campbell, talking to the former Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern about the pretty momentous times of Easter 1998. When you and Tony arrived in Belfast at the start of what led to the Good Friday Agreement, did you think something like that might emerge? If you recall, Alcer, Tony and I had been working at this since our opposition days and we said we give it one big push, but I think it's that, you know, we start to,

really the negotiations September 97. But as we drifted into 98, you know, it wasn't looking good. We were to have the meetings in London in January and there were people killed in the north and we had to put one party out, a UDP, and then

there were more people killed and we had to put Sinn Féin out because the IRA were seen of responsibility for that. And then we came up to March, we're going to America and that was a tricky enough period. Bill Clinton was being very helpful and encouraged us to go with it. And then And the chief coordinator of it all, George Mitchell said, listen, I don't go and give this three more weeks.

So, it was 17 to March, around 17 to March, he told all the parties, you know, another three weeks and I'm out of here. So all of a sudden, all the talking we had done and all the issues we had done and, you know, just to remind people we're doing about release of thousands of prisoners, how we're going to handle arms, huge amount of arms, including the IRA's Libyan arms, you know, how we were going to. reformed the RUC into a new police force, how we were going to be in legislation, demilitarized the north, the watchtowers and all the security. What to do? I don't know. It's a lot of huge. So all of a sudden in three weeks, we said, when we've done a lot of talking about

these issues, now can we kick them together? And it's answer your question that I think we could do all that in the last few weeks. And no, I didn't. I didn't think we could knock it together in three years. And then in the middle of that period itself, you had the additional. pressure of your mum dying. Yeah. I think I've got to be honest, that was when I grew from sort of liking you to have a kind of respect that was beyond anything because of the way you handled that.

I think most of us would have just, I don't know, I don't know, you went off, you dealt with your mother, you came back, you went back for the funeral. And at the same time, I should say, as I recorded in my account of the peace process, you were taking, even during that period, quite a lot of abuse, quite a lot of attack, but you just sort of kept going. Yeah, listen, we had put so much into it for a good few years before, and particularly that last 10 months. And I think the way I looked at it, Alistair was that if we didn't complete that and the amount of effort that Tony Blair put in, I was conscious.

Ireland is a very important country to us, but, you know, we're not a huge country, and I knew you could not get a British Prime Minister to continue on. to be at this every day and meeting all kind of strange people and bringing them into your number 10 and it couldn't go on. It couldn't go on. So I was conscious that if this didn't work,

it was probably gone for a decade and maybe more. And, you know, seeing what I've seen now, I think it would have been gone for more. I don't think we would have gotten. Do you think it could have been done if it were not for the fact that both you and he had recently been elected

and had a lot of political capital in the bank? I think we had the political capital in the bank and then both of us were prepared to put in the time and the effort and on the basis that it mightn't work because both of us were being told I wonder is this

thing impossible? Remember the last agreement had been 1921 and that didn't go very well. So like there was no precedent of success. There had been plenty of precincts of failure and I always say

I don't take anything from the people who tried in 1974 with Sunningdale or they tried very hard in 1995 but they failed so what Tony and I were trying to do was to have a comprehensive inclusive process with two governments

ten parties representing unionists loyalists Republicans and nationals which had never been done before and probably and it's not for me to say but by and large considered by UN people and others around the work, probably one of the few that has worked. And that was a tall order.

Of the main characters involved, as you say, quite a few are dead. But just give me very briefly, if we run through some of them, your assessment of some of the main people. David Trimble. David Trimble was difficult and he was a difficult person, a complex person, but ultimately deserved his Nobel Peace Prize because at least three times in the process, when we needed somebody to stand up, he did it, against horrendous odds in his own party, not to mind in the wider public.

John Hume. John Hume, unbelievable. Same message from 1968, three-strand approach, solved the problems in the north, north-south, east-west, fill your sweat, not your blood, never changed. Who was optimistic? Always optimistic.

Adams and McGuinness. Adams, McGinnis, Jerry was a hardball. Martin, he always knew where you were if Martin said something you tended to say well that's what he meant that's what will happen

but ultimately brave and Martin probably was on the hit list of of people who were against them more than most and people sometimes forget that and when he and Ian Paisley ended up as the

as the Chockel Brothers I always saw that as the kind of one of the defining moment really yeah I mean the sad thing about that as there is that you know probably that Ian maybe if he had been a bit better health and a bit younger had been around for a bit longer

he had great people like Peter Robinson behind him he continued on that relationship we were lucky enough on that but you know losing Martin was a huge loss I mean from Martin's health and that went down rapidly and only a matter of three or four months

so we long and Davey Irvine as well Brian Hemingshire like James Manon Seamus Malden. They were... Mo? Do you ever joints?

Giants and Moe went into the prisons when the tide was against us? I know we weren't happy that day. No, everyone was worried about it. I mean, there's no good saying it wasn't, but it was one of those risks that we took and, you know, Moe was as tough as letter, but she took the risk.

But if you take together, and I think the reason, if you look at that group, we were all used of listening to the troubles, you know, the thousands of people who had died, the tens of thousand people weren't injured

the huge amount the bombs it was horrific what was going on and I think we all kind of said well then you have to stretch yourself

to try and find a solution nowadays people you know there's been another incident here and there terrible incidents we all condemn those and everyone agrees

now to condemn those but in those days it wasn't so easy and I think it was the fact that that group of people that you've mentioned those that are dead

and those are alive we're all prepared to knuckle down together and both Clinton and Mitchell still with us, George Mitchell, Senator who was chairing the whole thing, and Clinton played an important role at various points, and you spoke to both of them.

So how would you assess their contribution? Yeah, well, Clinton was very upset when George Mitchell decided to leave Capitol Hill. And George had a young wife and a young child, and he wanted to get on and make some money, I think, too, have to been in politics all his life, so he's joined up a lot of boards. But he did say

to Bill, if you ever need me for something, give me a call. hoping he never would. So I think Bill said we'll listen we'd go over and help those Irish for a few months and a few years later

the poor man if it wasn't home. Yeah, I think he went across the Atlantic a hundred times during the remaining number of years but he was terrific.

He took dogs abuse at the start. I think you'd learn so much from him. You know the way you get people in life they say, oh, you have to be tough

and you have to be aggressive and you don't get anywhere if you don't go in and do this, that, you know, he was the opposite. Like, he had the patience

of Job. He listened to everybody, you know, didn't agree with any of them, I think, but, you know, that he had the ability to just handle that,

and he was an extraordinary, extraordinary, good guy. And he, he articulates, I think, the whole thing so well. And he had to support

of the present of the free world, and that was, I mean, that ultimately gave him that command and position. Like, you couldn't turn around

and not see its sincerity and at the same time I understand that if you want to keep the President of the United States with us, which we did, thankfully, and as you recall, we used them extensively in those last few days. Absolutely. And personal relationships in politics, do you think it could have happened

in the way that it did if you hadn't had the sort of jelling that went on between you and Tony and Tony and Clinton and you and Clinton? There was a sort of jelling there that worked. Do you think these relationships mean something? It wouldn't have happened.

If this was left to the process and to the system and even all our good people that we had with us and there were all great people that we had with us, it wouldn't have happened. I mean, in the end of day,

it was that we worked together normally in that kind of negotiations. Tony and I should have been adversarial. We should have been fighting our causes and lines. And that's what all was, it goes on all over the world. And I've been involved in a few processes since and different places.

And you see why they don't work very quickly. No, we were lucky that we got armed well together. And, you know, can I quickly add that that relationship wasn't just 98. I mean, Tony and I had to live with this till 2007, till we really got the institutions up and running. And it was that permanent meeting, you know, meeting of European meetings, several European meetings, you know, informal ones, formal meetings, been able to go back and forward between

Dublin and London. I don't know how many times. I think I definitely would hold a world record of prime ministers that were in number 10. Nobody could get near me, I'd say. But I mean... You probably went there more days than Liz trusted. Yeah, well, I think I was there

about 50 or 60 times, so I did not a bad record. And where do you think we are today? So we're meeting on a day when just been a shooting of an off-duty police in OMA, as you say, people saying all the right things. but just, you know, a worrying sign. You've got Rishi Sunak trying to get some sort of deal

over the line in relation to something that will replace Johnson's mess. And maybe just a feeling that, you know, we're going to have to normalise the idea that these institutions in Northern Ireland aren't up and running. They've been down and not running more than they've been up and running. So just give me your rough take on where you see things now.

And whether you're optimistic, I guess. Yeah, I am optimistic, but if you ask me, am I very optimistic now. but I do think this is doable and we have a short window of opportunity now, don't ask me what that short means but it's not months, that's sure. I think we probably have a few weeks

but no more than that. And again, your face with... What happens if? If that doesn't work, I think it's gone again for a considerable period of time. And that means institutions are down, the institutions are down and I fear, I hate saying this

but I fear that the European Union will say we'll come back after the next election in the UK and maybe the next election in Ireland, you know, so we're gone for a period. That's why I'm optimistic because they just don't want that to happen. But at the same time, we desperately need the institutions up. I mean, Northern Ireland has a whole lot of difficulties, a whole lot of problems, and it desperately needs to have people running the place day by day, even if it's not perfect. and I were at a dinner last night with Ibeck and did Rehinen, academic. And eminent academic from the North.

And she said, she got very emotional and she says me very, very powerful, I thought. She said that for all this talk now of the DUP this and the DUP that we in the North are basically collateral damage. How much do you think this is about, has been about the Tory party, the current problems? And also, I don't remember anybody back in 1998 ever suggest. that maybe one of the factors we had to think about going forward was that would the United Kingdom leave the European Union? How much of the problems we've got now do you think are a direct consequence of that? Yeah, well, you're right. Nobody ever did. I don't think anyone even dreamt it, not to mind say it. So, you know, you can't blame Brexit on everything, but it's certainly destabilized things for the last six, seven years.

There's no doubt about that. You know, we all tried collectively here, former leaders, present leaders, tried to make those points in the year before the Cameron referendum and nobody really listened. Anyway, we collectively failed to get that through into the equation. But all those fears have come through and it's really been difficult for the last few years. Now, we can't blame Brexit because different things brought down the institutions.

But the momentum that we had gained over the years and businesses doing better, more, exchanges between north and south, east-west relationships going well, Irish officials, British officials working together. And then it all stops. And the one that I think really was the horror show for me, that people sometimes say, were the institutions good enough in the Good Friday agreement? Was what you designed good enough? And I said, well, they were perfectly well. But what do you do when we couldn't get a British Miami Minister even to turn up to an East

West meeting for a decade. And, you know, I don't be criticising anyone, but I mean it took a huge effort even to get Rishi Suneck to go to that Blackburn before Christmas because I think he got it or at least somebody got to... He was like the first in 10 years. First since

since Gordon Brown. And so somebody says, well, were the institutions not up to it? Well, if he couldn't even get the people to the meetings, you know. And by the way, I didn't expect a British Prime Minister to be turned up every month. You know, that,

you know, if we turned up once a year, it would have been enough, but not once a decade, and then an awful

lot of hours. So, so that has been, you know, hugely negative. And then all the arguments, like we thought,

you and I thought, we're finished with the border, land border, and sea border and, you know, Europe had got rid of borders.

There was no borders. We would not have been talking about the sea border or the land border except for Brexit. I mean, and what has created all the difficulties?

the landlorded sea border. So I'm afraid that end of it, nobody can argue that it wasn't Brexit. And then what does that start? The argument about Irishness and Britishness. And what do we try and solve a good fight agreement that you could be Irish and British and most? So I'm afraid

any fair commentator has to say that the killer blow to us this last seven or eight years has been Brexit. Where do you think we are on the possibility of what you like to call a New Island and most commonly described as a United Island. Yeah, I think... Presumly you still want a United Island.

Yeah, I'd like to. But I'd rather call it a New Ireland because I think the idea, United Ireland is linked to my dad's time, you know, where it was, they get out and we take over, you know. And that's the last thing you want to know. I mean, the fear sometimes of unionist people is that Sinn Féin would come back and do what they did on them. And, you know, that's all stuff that we need to consign to it.

to be in not to mind history. So I've been in favour of the work going on, looking at it and examining it, having earlier border polls would be a disaster and it won't happen. I think really what we want to see is a sustained period of the institutions working. And we have to be conscious that the promise to Republicans at the time was that there would be from time to time a border pole. But I'm afraid time to time has to mean when you have to be. have the institutions up and running.

And I think... What happens if, I mean, it's really not impossible. Sinn Féin won the election in the North. Yeah. And it's looking likely that that's going to happen in the Republic as well. Yeah. And Sinn Féin presumably will have to promise a border poll as part of the programme. Yeah, I think they will promise a border poll.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But they legally have to say that the preparatory work has to be completed. And then when people understand what they're voting for, like the problem that we've learned from Brexit and the problem we've learned from Scottish referendum, is that if you haven't got your preparatory work done, you should save your money

and not have a poll. So, and our position is probably even more complicated because we're dealing with hundreds of years of history. So unless there's a clear question put to the people with the backup arrangements, like if you were to have a border poll, you wouldn't pass it in the south

because people would say, well, how's that going to work? Forget about the money. So you're telling me that the Irish would maybe ask the questions that the British didn't necessarily ask in the way they should have. I think, you see, the problem with Brexit was that nobody had worked out what it actually meant.

I remember in, was it, in the referendum was what? June 23rd, 2016. 16, remember that day. But I remember in 2017 when Theresa May went, set out the terms. It was January 2017. She set out the terms of what Brexit meant. And the single market, I reckon, was going to go. she was going to say single market would be out.

But when she said the customs union was out and I recently got onto the research and Dole-Earn, and I asked when anyone find any reference that was made in anywhere, anywhere of the customs union in the campaign. They denied it. It would ever happen. And they came back and said

any time it was ever raised, people said, what's that got to do with the reference? Nobody said. And then all of a sudden, you know, that's what created. Because as soon as that happened, I remember what Pascal Lame, who was headed at WTO and head of commissioner, he had all the time said, as soon as you'd create a land border,

wherever it is, unfortunately it happened to be in the island of Ireland, but wherever it is, you're going to have to deal with all these issues. And he said that immediately after she made that statement, and here we are six years later, grappling with those. I guess there is a theory, because the other great success of your time as Tishuk

was you were president of the European Union, you're getting the rotating president, at the time of the biggest enlargement of the European Union, which in turn led to a lot of the problems we had with immigration within the European Union, which then led to Brexit, Berties.

I mean, we could make the case that it's all your fault. Oh, yeah, yeah. But I tell you, the one thing that the UK and we did on the one day was in May 2004, we opened up the borders so people could come. But as you know, Alastard, in Dublin today and throughout Ireland,

we now have, you know, huge multinationals that have come in since then. We were the biggest exporters of software in the world, I think probably still are, even a small country. But what's the reason for that? It's that because all of these research groups and all these companies have people from every country in the world. You go in to say, go down to Google

or any of the big ones here, they're all around, implying thousands of people, thousands of people. You go in, you'll meet Indians, you'll meet Latin Americans, you'll meet people from every country, and you're all working together on the projects. And that's what's made us. I mean, we all have the problem of immigrants coming from someplace and trying to give them accommodation and the Ukraine.

That's a challenge. But, I mean, the pluses on the other side of it is amazing. And, you know, in that period, you know, we have, I think our economy is doubled in the last 10 years, but it doubled in the previous 10 years. So, you know, we couldn't have done that, you know, without the European Union and what was in it. So I could never understand.

I know that was the issue in the referendum, which you can see already now most of the industries are looking for people and they're all making cases and why they should be the exception. And I think that was fairly obvious at the time. But instead of people who should have known better, in my view, arguing the case why that wasn't a bad thing, they joined the bandwagon and argued the case the other way. And that was the sad thing.

Well, let's not ruin a wonderful hour spent together by even mentioning the word B, J. I think that's who you have in mind at that point. Bertie, it's been absolutely lovely talking to you, lovely spending time with you as ever, and good luck with your podcast and thank you for appearing on ours. Thank you very much and have no

chance of knocking you off your number one spot, but I'll try and do okay in Ireland. Thank you.