The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 85. Lisa Nandy: Making Britain a cultural superpower

Episode Date: July 14, 2024

What responsibilities will Lisa Nandy take on as the new Secretary of State for Culture, Media, and Sport? Why was this the most toxic election campaign she has fought? How has the importance of Britain's soft power evolved post-Brexit? Rory and Alastair are joined by Lisa Nandy to discuss all this and more. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. TRIP TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [e-mail] Video Editor: Teo Ayodeji-Ansell Social Producer: Jess Kidson Assistant Producer: Fiona Douglas Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispolities.com. Welcome to the Restis Politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And we've got our first serving member of the new Labor government cabinet, Lisa and Andy. Now, the last time Labor came to power, Lisa. and then they didn't even have a vote. She was 17. And then when she became an MP in 2010, that was the year that the new Labour government was coming to an end. So she's been an MP for 14 years,

plenty of ups and downs. We'll talk about some of those. But I guess most importantly, has never ever seen a Labour government and now is part of that government. And an interesting and perhaps surprising way, because Thangham Debenair, as we talked about in the podcast last week, didn't win her seat. So one of the first decisions Keir Stahma had to make was who to appoint to culture, media and sport. So welcome the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I think those two words, Labour Government, will never get old. It's so brilliant to be here, but it's mostly brilliant because for 14 years, I've been going round and round in circles in the House of Commons losing votes and losing arguments. And a couple of days ago, I opened

that great big red folder and saw the words for decision and thought, my God, we can change people's life. What was the first decision? So we've got some decisions to make about the Euro's 2028. We've got to make sure that we crack on and ensure that it delivers for every single part of the United Kingdom. And Ireland. And Northern Ireland as well. It's really, really important to us that it does. And so I've got the very, very hard task of having to go off straight after this and fly to Germany for the Euro semi-final. I mean, Keir said we have to be a government service. And sadly, for me, that means I have to go and serve at the football.

In the Royal Box. Well, I don't know where I am actually. You will be. Who knows? Who knows? Oh, God. Well, if you let you in. Exactly. Me and Victor Orban.

But there's some serious work to do there as well, because I've got to make sure that we're talking to UEFA. We're talking to all our partners. We're talking to the FA and we really deliver for people here. So thank you. And we're so excited. And it's incredible to get somebody so fresh coming in as a cabinet minister. And obviously, our listeners around the world really interested in what it feels like to have a new government, how to all function.

So just talk us through. When did you hear that you got the job? And then when did you get to the office and what time in the morning and what did it look like and where is this office? And just give us a sense of the feeling of the whole thing. Oh, goodness me. So there is a story here. I'm not at all convinced I should be telling either of you. But I'm, yeah, no, Rory's nodding, vigorous.

Honestly. So I had an inkling that I was going to get a phone call. I've been told to be in London on the Friday. I had been told that there may be a call sometime around. And you've been up all Thursday night? Had you got any sleep? I've been up full Thursday night. I've been at my own count. I've been watching the results come in. And we're worried about your care. What maturity did you win with? So I won by a decent margin. But we obviously, it's been a horrible election campaign. We've had the rise of some pretty nasty independence. We've had the reform surge. I've been. dealing with the far right in my own constituency. For quite a while? For quite a while. But I mean, I've never seen the far right as resurgent as this since I was a child. And it's really quite frightening to witness. Far right on the one hand.

And then there was also some sort of far left pro-Gaza factions. Was that true in your constituency or less? Not in Wigham. But we definitely had that in lots of parts of the country. And, you know, people will have seen the way that people like Shabana Mahmood and Nashire and Jess Phillips and others what they've had to deal with. So it's been a very, very toxic election campaign and we got to the end of that and obviously we won, which was amazing, but we also lost some very good colleagues. You mentioned Thangham Debenair, who is just a wonderful colleague and a

real loss to us, Jonathan Ashworth, Kate Halearn. There were a number of people who just didn't make it across the line. So it was an amazing moment, but it was also, there were some mixed feelings about, you know, certainly where we are as a country and what our politics says about where we are as a country. And to take it back, did you, I mean, I never got Alistair to be confident about the election. Be honest with us, did you, given that you were 20 points ahead in the opinion polls for about the last two years, did you have a suspicion that you might be likely to win the election? No. So I couldn't, I think I'm where Alistair is actually. I couldn't make myself believe it. We've had so many elections over the last 19 years and we've lost every single

one of them. And it's just so hard to believe that it's possible. I think I said a few years ago that part of the problem with being in opposition for a long time is that you really do lose that sense of confidence. I think the flip side is now true that we've got to remember that we're here because we won the trust of a lot of people to govern, but you can lose that trust. And we've got to remember that people's votes are not a given. They lend us their votes in elections, but they can take them away as well. And certainly that was the tone of the first cabinet meeting. And I'm being naughty because I must let Alice come in, but I just want you to take us through if you can bear that weekend and hearing about the job and the first day in the office and then

I'll hand back to Alistair. Yeah. So I came down to London on the train. I hadn't been to sleep. It all felt very surreal. And because MPs, the Rino MPs, until you're sworn in, I couldn't get into my office in Parliament. So my great friend, Jack McConnell, Lord Jack McConnell, who was the First Minister of Scotland last time Labour was in power lent me his office so that I could have somewhere to hang out and I was in there with my political advisor

and with Jack and we were chatting watching the news unfold seeing some of the first appointments be made we then realised that they were being made very very fast it was an incredibly efficient operation I don't think anyone expected it and so my political advisor said to me

you need to get changed I was in my jogging bottoms and a hoodie and he said you can't walk up down It isn't like in opposition where you just get a phone call. You're going to have to go and walk up past the cameras. So I, you know, hot-footed it out of the room, changed into my dress, got stuck in my dress. The zip then broke. So I was stuck with the zip at the top, but it had unfolded all the way down the back.

And so my poor old lovely political advisor and Lord Jack McConnell had to cut me out of my dress with a pair of scissors while my phone rang from the Downing Street switchboard to tell me that I needed to be there in the next 10 minutes. So there was a moment where we briefly considered me just putting my coat over this broken outfit and just running down Downing Street. But luckily, a great friend of mine ran over with a spare suit. And I managed to make it fully clothed to Downing Street. So actually, I think I had a slightly different experience from all the other members of the newly appointed cabinet because while they strolled down there feeling very apprehensive about what they're about to be appointed to, I was just utterly relieved to be fully closed. And you had no idea what the job was going to be

or did you have an inkling by that? I had a bit of an inkling and I didn't know but I knew from the access talks that I would potentially be appointed to the development brief which I was really excited about myself and David Lammy were really good friends and see the world

very similarly and we had a great agenda and in preparation we had that completely mad Zoom call where you were picking up your kids from school whilst explaining to me how to run development and solve global poverty I was really excited because it's very kind of you to reach out and talk about it and then you get into all the details of all that and then suddenly you're on to another department.

Yeah, and I definitely, you know, obviously very sad to lose Thangham, very excited about development and then suddenly realizing I wasn't going to do it. But I honestly can't tell you how thrilled I was. I had a hint that I might be moving to a domestic brief beforehand. And when I found out it was culture media and sport, I just, I don't know. I don't know even how to describe the feeling. to be honest. And so is Keir operator at the cabinet room or at the office next door or what?

So he was in the cabinet room, which is in itself just quite extraordinary. You know, I've been an MP for 14 years and I think the closest I've ever got to Downing Street is going and standing outside with a petition. So it was, you know, to walk in and say hello, Prime Minister. I said to him, how does that sound? And he said, adrenaline and coffee is getting me through quite a lot at the moment. I mean, it's just, you know, for all of us, it feels utterly. surreal. But it also, you know, we are related. We're absolutely elated because we have the chance

to fix things and change things for people finally after all this time. But there is a really heavy sense of responsibility on all of us. You could feel it at the first cabinet meeting. You know, we're the first in a generation, the fourth ever Labour government in history. To get to win an election. To win an election from opposition. And we've, we've, we've got a big challenge ahead of us. And there's a lot right. on it for people in this country. So I think that feeling of being public servants with a big sense of

responsibility, that is really the vibe. It's not, you know, we weren't running around Downing Street sort of measuring the curtains and punching the air. And do you do you, do, do you know, and I've been with Tony and Gordon when they're making appointments very, very quickly like that. Is here somebody who gives you

a clear sense of direction? Because culture media and sport is a lot of things and is a, but are you getting a clear direction about what, are you able now to go and work out your priorities or is he telling you what those priorities are? So the first thing he gave me was a big hug which was, you know, people often say that he's not, you know, they don't know how to connect to him, although I think that's starting to change. But, you know, privately, you'll both know this, but he is very warm and he is very funny. And he gave me a huge

hug and said, you know, I really want you to walk into this government, the fourth ever government in Labour history with your own department, your own team. I know you love the development brief. but I'm asking you to move because I need you to make an impact and have a legacy. We need to have a legacy in this. So I want you to do culture, media and sport. And I wish that I'd said something very profound at that moment because I feel like, I just went, oh yeah, thanks. And then sort of thought back on all those great exchanges between great states people in that room

and thought that wasn't it, was it? When you write your autobiography, you can say. Well, I can't now, can I? Because I've just told you both. That's true. No, it's true. So I've blown that. Never by, never.

Yeah. And on the, you've had, I said in the introduction, you've had ups and downs. So there was a point when you've been Shadow Foreign Secretary and Keir moved what was seen as down. You know, I think my sense is that he was like really respectful of the fact you just kind of got on with it. And do you think in a way you showed your character at that time when you were maybe feeling, privately feeling a bit low? So he's asked me to do three different jobs, four now actually. So shadow foreign secretary, shadow leveling up, shadow development minister, and then thank God no shadow anymore. This is going to take a bit of getting used to, culture secretary.

And I've never asked for any of those jobs. And I don't really see it as my job to go and pitch and lobby for the job. I've taken them all and I've done my best with them. I think I've done a pretty good job. Every time he's appointed me to the post, he's always had a reason. So he asked me to do foreign in particular because I'd done a lot during the leadership campaign. Yeah. About Britain's role in the world, particularly, and I hesitate to mention the B word because it'll set you off, Alistair.

But, you know, post-Brexit, we had to work out who this country is and where we're going in the world. And it was an absolute privilege to be able to come in to sort out some of the mess that the last administration had left over Russia. By the way, culture, I think is part of that. Yeah, of course. I mean, so do I, and that's one of the reasons I'm so excited to have the brief. But, you know, Russia, China, Israel, Palestine, we were in a real mess, and we were sort of nowhere on the relationship with Europe, who are our closest friends and neighbours. So he asked me to come in and do that. He asked me to do leveling up because we really, Michael Gove had just been appointed.

We really needed to have an alternative to the government and to be able to take on their agenda. And he asked me to do development because we've done a lot of great thinking. My predecessor, Preak Gill had done some great work. but we needed to take some decisions very, very quickly, and we hadn't been able to do that. Development was a huge legacy for the last Labour government, and it will be for ours as well. And so every time he's asked me to do a job,

he's always had a reason for it, he's always been respectful. And I think the thing that's been really important for me and him, personally, over the last 10 months, is that obviously this horrendous thing happened on the 7th of October, which unleashed absolute hell for both Israelis and Palestinians. And as somebody who had been chair of Labour Friends of Palestine but had won the nomination of the Jewish Labour movement during the leadership campaign and spoken out about anti-Semitism,

I suddenly found that I was in a position to really be able to help the team. And Keir and I have sat in meetings daily over the last 10 months about Israel and Gaza. You were part of that team day-to-day management. John Healy, David Lammy, Yvette Cooper, Keir and some of his senior staff, we would meet daily to discuss how we ought to respond. And I think one of the reasons that you can basically see the smiles on the faces of the cabinet from space at the moment is not because we've been appointed to these positions. You know, we're talking to West Streeting about this the other day. We didn't come into politics to be something.

It's because we've got the opportunity to do something. And a lot of that is to do with the way that Kear leads. You ask me, does he tell you what you should do with a brief? He doesn't. He appoints what he believes are the best people to the job without fear or favour. You know, some of his closest friends haven't made the cut. But he appoints what he thinks are the best people to do the job and he trusts you to get on with it. And he follows your progress and he engages with it.

But what he expects from you is challenge. And that's why we're all smiling so much because he wants people in the room who will challenge him and will help him to get the right decisions. And that really gives us the opportunity not to be something, but to do something. So you go into Downing Street. You go to the cabinet room, get a hug. You told you've got the job. This is Friday at what time?

So this was, I guess it was about 3 o'clock because I was sort of, you know, I was still zipping myself up as I ran, but yes, I think it's about 3. And then when's the first moment that you actually arrive in the office? Where is this office? What happens when you arrive in the office? What does it feel like? What's the building? Is it around where?

Treasury. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I've got a really good spot, actually. I was joking with Rachel because I came out of it. Tell us about it then. So I came out of the room after he depointed me and, you know, some of his staffers were

there, you know, gave me a hug. You go into a room and they go through the declaration of ministerial interests. And I think, I shouldn't really, I'm trying not to be too party political, but I think they're all a bit surprised that most of us don't have any. And so it was quite short. I didn't have any of. No, I'm sure you didn't. Sorry, I'm not meaning to aspersions, but they're used to having to go through very long

lists of interests. And I just said, well, I've got a bit of credit card debt. And that's about it, which Johnny Reynolds keeps telling me to sort out. So I came out of that room. And are you going to a sort of holding room where they're waiting? The king apparently has to approve the appointments. I can't actually believe I'm saying this out loud, to be honest. It's all very surreal.

And we did it the other way around. So I got this weird thing where... The king has to approve you in advance. I think with you, that was a pretty safe bet, worry. It's a good idea. I think this weird thing was there was suddenly a panic in Theresa May's cabinet and David Gore could rebel. And the chief whipped up me aside and said that they'd called the king and I was going to be the Lord Chancellor. And then suddenly at the last moment, there was a rebellion.

and they did this Spartacus moment against Trees, May and his sister David Gort Remain, so I didn't become Lord Chancellor. But I know from that that, for some reason, I guess because they have more time, they were getting the approvals before. But in your case, you're appointed and then they have to wait for the approval from the House. It really reminds me of a story that Ivan, I don't know if you remember, Ivan Lewis, the MP for Berry South. But he told me this story once about how he had had a call saying he was going to be the policing minister. This is probably your doing, actually, Alison.

And he said, he waited and waited by his phone and the appointments were. made and then somebody was appointed policing minister and it wasn't him. And then it ended and he was just still there waiting for the call. And it turned out that I think the way you guys used to do it, maybe we still do, is magnets with people's names attached on a giant board. And his magnet had fallen off the board. And they found him behind the filing cabinet about three months later. And bang goes your political career. I mean, it's, you know, it is, it can be that brutal, I think. It's not as bad as when Tony phoned Brian Donahue. to ask him to be Minister of Agriculture.

And halfway through the call, we had to scribble a note saying, you're bet to be pointing Bernard Donoghue. So Brian Donoghue was the shortest-limbed agriculture minister of all time. He took it well. Terrible. Oh, God, what if this, what if, now you're giving me a complex, what if I get a call saying, oh, sorry, actually. It wasn't you.

But, yeah, so you come out, you go into this holding room. It's all, you know, you're there with your colleagues, and, you know, you're all very sort of. I think they were particularly chuffed for me because, you know, I've been giving this. They call it a promotion. I have to say, I love the development brief so much. And you would have been great at it. Yeah, well, and Lisa Dodds will be very good.

She's an economist, which really matters with the sort of climate poverty and debt agenda that we've got to crack. But I, yeah, and I said to Rachel, I'm now the, oh, sorry, I said to the Chancellor, I'm now the Minister for Fun. And she said to me, unfortunately, due to budgetary constraints, fun has been cancelled. I think I was David Miller who used that phrase. Well, yeah, well, it hasn't. It absolutely hasn't because I've got a great team, Chris Bryant and Steph Peacock, who you'll know very well. And I think it's fair to say when we address the civil service team,

Steph hadn't yet been appointed. So Chris and I did it. And I don't think they've ever had Minister of State who has quoted RuPaul in their opening address. So he's definitely at the heart. I saw the transcript of the speech you made to the staff. I love you this line that the culture wars are over. Thank God for that. Yeah, well, thank God for that for the whole country, I think.

I mean, I always felt, you know, I know you guys have particular views about Boris Johnson, which, to be honest, I share. But I always felt that this sort of characterisation, that this view that they had of people in towns like Wigan, where I live and represent, was just so, was so off the mark. You know, we're a proud, generous town that don't like nastiness.

and the idea that you can demonise child migrants and you can try and spark sort of race divisions and culture divisions. It just doesn't work in a place like Wigan. I remember telling a colleague a few years ago when we've only ever erected two statues in Wiggin by public subscription, one to the men, women and children of the mining industry

and the other to Billy Boston, who is one of the greatest sports people in the whole history of the world. the planet, yeah. I agree with that. And, you know, Billy Boston, for those of you who don't follow the right sort of rugby very closely, he is a black man who was, I think he was the first black player to ever play for our country. For England, yeah. And he's still a very big figure in Wiggin.

He's a wonderful, kind man. But we love him, and he really symbolises Wiggin. And so when Johnson and his ilk were trying to spark all these wars about race and about trans and everything else, just didn't work in places like Wiggin and I'm just so glad that we now have the chance to give voice to that better country that we are and have always been but that hasn't been reflected by our government

one of the things in interviews shouldn't have is a one-track line but I want to try to come back what time do you turn up in the office? What do you see? I love this. Do you notice I talked about sport and he's literally done everything that he can to change the subject? He'll go home tonight and look up Billy Boston and why did you get a statue?

I haven't got a statue. Are there two types of Rugby? There are. Rory, there are. But there's only one right kind of rugby. Oh God, that's going to get me into trouble, isn't it? No, there are two. Too great rugby. I should, in full disclosure, I should say that my partner, Andy, is rugby union. So we're a divided household. It is interesting. You know, Rory's got this feeling that some of the Labour politicians are a bit class-based, which I don't see as a bad thing. And of course, this is the least private school-educated cabinet in history. One person, I think, went to private school. But I think it's really important that.

there's now you and the speaker, Lindsay Hoyle, who are big, big, big rugby league fans. Because I think it is a sport that doesn't get the support of the law. So, like I said to the civil service team when I was first appointed, I was meant to be going to Silverston to present the trophy, and I couldn't do it. Oh, so Peter Carl stood in for you. Oh, right.

He's wonderful, Peter, and he's a huge Formula One fan. But I just had to go home and see my little boy. I hadn't seen him for weeks, actually, because I've been out on the battle bus, and he's nine years old, and he just needed his mum. And so Peter very kindly stepped up. And the best thing about it is he thinks that I did him a favour

because he loved it so much. But I said to the civil service team, I'd like my first visit to be to go and watch the darts. You know, we'll just go and look, Rory's like, I wish people could see Rory's face at this moment. It's a picture. Don't worry, it's being filmed. But because I do feel very strongly that there are, you know,

there are sports that feel very, very forgotten and overlooked by their government, by their politicians, and it's where most of the country is. And so if that's where most of the country is and it matters to the country, I can't pretend to be an expert in the darts, but I am more than happy to go and have a pint and watch the darts.

My mum is a big fan. Our new leader of the Commons and Lucy Powell is a big fan of darts? When did your mom become a big fan of darts? Is your mother a fan of darts? I'm shocked. I don't know, she just really likes the darts. But, you know, one of our MPs,

Tonya, Ants the best of her, she's a dance champion. And I think this stuff matters, actually. Have you ever talked to your mother about how she became a big fan of dance? No, she's also really into football. I find it all very, very quite baffling, actually. But she, yeah. Because she was a BBC journalist, right?

She was Granada. Yeah, so she was a current affairs producer. She is one of my great inspirations. People often say, who do you most admire in the world? And it's very much my mum. Her and my dad got divorced when we were, I think I was seven, my sister was now. I have two very loving parents. We grew up in a single parent household,

and that did shape me a lot, especially with the attitude of the Tory government at the time towards single moms. It leaves a very deep impression on you because you feel that you're under attack from your own government. But she was the only woman in the current affairs department at Granada.

I'd never forget the day that Hillsborough happened. We were little kids. We were out in Manchester with my mum having a day out, and we parked at Granada. TV and people were hanging out of the window shouting, Louise, you've got to come up here. We ran up about 10 flights of stairs. You remember the old Granada building.

It's huge sort of tower block, concrete tower block. Ran up about 10 flights of stairs. She was the head of news at Granada at the time. And my sister and I sat in a corner with some colouring while watching this horror unfold on the screens while she directed the newsroom. And I remember that not only we were the only kids there because she had no childcare, but and we were there till sort of, you know, four in the morning, but until she remembered about us

and got a cab to take us around to a friend's house so we could stay the night. But she also was having to make really, really big calls. I mean, the biggest, I think, was that she was being asked by the people who were there, the cameramen who were filming, should we help people? Rather than film.

Or should we film? And they made a decision to film, which was really hard. But actually, years later, I now represent some of the Hillsborough family, and the amazing Margaret Aspinall and others who have fought that campaign for so long. And actually that footage was everything. I mean, it was decisive in helping them to achieve what they achieved.

But, you know, those big calls with childcare and being the only woman in the newsroom, I'm not sure my mum has ever realised what a big deal that was and what a big impression it made on me and my sister, you know, that women can do it, do it, do it, but they can do everything, but they probably have to do it all. They don't just have it all. They've got to do it all as well. And just to sort of go back on that. So on your mother's side, it's kind of big public service family, right? So your grandfather was a member of parliament. Your mother was this head of news at Granada. So on that side, you very much, this idea of going into public service, going to government is almost like a kind of something you grew up with that's part of the values of your whole mother's side. That's right. Yeah, so he was a liberal MP. And then he was a liberal MP and then he was leader of the liberals in the House of Lords. He fought in the war. And I think that very much shaped his politics.

He was one of the people who was involved in the liberation of Paris. He was on Monty's staff. So he was pretty, yeah. And he's somebody who, from a distance, appears to sort of come from a kind of different world. I mean, he's the kind of colonel in the army. He was a blue at Oxford or something. So he's like a sort of kind of upper middle class liberal. He's sort of central casting kind of public service oriented.

But by today's standards, we consider quite posh. Yeah, I mean, it very much felt like that when I was a kid. So we'd go and see my grandparents every summer. They lived down in Surrey and we lived up in Manchester. And it did feel like stepping into a different world, if I'm honest. It was sort of magical, but it felt like a very, very different world. Even the way that people spoke was very different. And my cousins and my uncle used to rib us mercilessly about our accents.

And, you know, we were at state school and they were at private school. And it did. It felt very, very different. But it's also, it was an enormous privilege because, I remember the first day I was elected to Parliament, and you probably had this as well, Rory, but just that sense of imposter syndrome and you walk in and you think... Rory did not have imposter syndrome. I don't know.

I don't know, Alastair. I don't know, Alastair. I imagine you probably felt you were born to be in Downing Street. I think Rory and I very much had imposter syndrome. And, you know, especially being a woman walking in there, you walk through those doors at St Stephen's entrance, and you walk down a hall full of statues of men, you turn a corner, and you walk down another hall full of portraits of men and then you walk into the chamber

you sit down and you face, certainly in 2010, the conservative intake, it was just wall-to-wall men. And I thought, where's everyone else? I mean, so we were elected at the same time and I remember thinking

that the Labour benches basically looked much more colourful, pleasant, friendly. I mean... I should have defated. You should have joined us. It was sort of sitting on our benches and kind of this incredible sort of weird

roars from all these kind of and there were a lot of sort of big guys and kind of piece-rived suits. Yeah, definitely. I remember it really well. And then it looked like this was like the cool kids were over on the Labour benches because they were all kind of young. No one's ever called us a lot, the cool kids.

Is this because we're in government? Is this what we can expect? Exactly. Everyone is suddenly being really fabulous. Well, for a bit. Anyway, just sort of about this for a second, though. So, I mean, he really is like a kind of matinee idol in a way. I mean, he got the kind of, he's a decorated military veteran.

He was a colonel. He got the Quar de Guarra in France. He was a blue, which means he was a sporting star at university. He goes on to be a Liberal MP. I mean, is he so alive? Did he? No, so he died when I was four. But I do remember him very well.

And to me, he was just my granddad. So we called him imp, and I don't have any idea why. I think some of our cousins called him Grimp, and my sister couldn't say it. It was something, you know, one of those weird things in families where you have names for people and you have no idea where it came from. but he I just I have very very vivid memories that he was he was the naughty one

and my granny was the you know telling everybody off one and we you know it's things like we would disappear under the family dinner table when it was time for dinner and she wouldn't be able to find us and she'd be getting very cross

and he and I would be hiding under the table and you know just mucking around and always he had one of those lawn mowers that you drive like I've never it's just completely bonkers actually like the sort of thing that you see on football grounds.

Because he had a big lawn. Because he had a big lawn. Yeah, he had a really big lawn. Like, amazingly big lawn. It was like, you know, when you're four, when you're growing up in Manchester, it looks like a park, basically, and your own park. And we would get in the back of that lawnmower in the trailer and he drives us around. I mean, obviously. So I just, I mean, I totally get what you're saying, but he wasn't that to me.

He was just my granddad. And your mother then went on a very different path. So she had a father who was a life here, is a Lord, is a Liberal MP. and she married a very progressive, very, I mean, you sometimes make jokes about your dad being more left-wing than you are. It's a Marxist, so I think it's fair to say that it's true. He still is, yeah. So tell us a little bit about how your mother met your father, what that meant when they got married and all that kind of stuff. So my dad knew my granddad because he, my dad is an Indian. He is from Calcutta. He still calls it Calcutta, so I do as well. He came over to Britain to study under a guy called Arnold Kettle at Ler,

Leeds University, who was a Marxist literary professor, and Alice is trying to connect the dots now. I can see he's thinking hard. So he came over to study under him. He was pretty gifted academically my dad. He'd got nine A's at A level in just a few months. And then he did. Well, when the rest of us did three, he got nine. I mean, it's pretty impossible being in my family. I am not of that ilk, basically. And so it's always been a bit of a disappointment to my parents. But Yeah, and he got a double-starred first at Leeds. But while he was at Leeds, his dad lost all his money. His business went broke.

My uncle dropped out of university to try and support my dad. My dad got a night job, but they couldn't get through it. And he went to tell this Professor Arnold that he was going to have to drop out. And Arnold said, moving with us. So he did, and that's, I got my second family, the Kettle family. You'll know Martin Kettle very well on The Guardian. through that. So sort of this extraordinary series of events where this, you know, Marxist Indian rebel suddenly ends up. So that was Martin's dad? Yeah. Yeah. In this sort of,

you know, family that... Big fans of dirty leads. Yeah, sadly. Yeah. My dad's a cricket fan. So, yeah, so headingly was a, yeah, good thing for him. But, um, so he, and then he, he, he went off to be an academic, um, but got very involved in the race relations struggle, largely because he was married before he married my mum, his first wife died. And it was at a time when you couldn't, you know, you couldn't get a house if you're an Indian. And my parents tell a story about how when they went to Manchester to look for a house, my mum went up first. And there were lots of houses available.

And then they went back to the estate agents with my dad. And suddenly it turned out there was nothing available at all. If you wanted to, if he wanted to have a drink with his wife in the pub, they had to stage a sitting to achieve it. And so he set up something called the Campaign Against Racial Discrimination Card, got very involved in the race relations. issue, went on to work for Roy Jenkins to write the Race Relations Act. Which...

Back in the 70s. Yeah. And so that's how he met my mum because he was lobbying a lot of liberal MPs to try and get them to support this effort. My granddad was in the House of Lords by then. It was very supportive. Very interesting that Roy Jenkins would go from Marxists to help him write the act. Well, I never knew Roy Jenkins, but my understanding is that he was intellectually very

curious and interesting. and actually framing race legislation is, you know, equality's legislation is incredibly hard. You know, you can't police people's thoughts. So you've, and you shouldn't police people's thoughts. So you've got to find a way to frame it that takes quite a lot of intellectual work and thoughts. And I think my dad was pretty good at that.

Is he a Labour voter? My dad? Yeah. Never vote Labor. Well, I don't think. So my dad is a tactical voter. Would he be sympathetic? He votes to get the Tories out.

Right. So he's voted Labor a lot of times, but he will vote for whichever party he thinks can defeat the Tories. Would he have been enthusiastic about Jeremy, Corbyn? No, goodness, no. He's a Marxist. He's not, sorry. Jeremy's. I don't mean to be so emphatic, but he, no.

I mean, he's a, he's a Marxist, not a communist. And he, he, you know. I'd love these distinctions to the labor movement. Well, okay. All right, Rory. Let me explain it. Yeah, all right. Struggles with Marxism, communism, communism, trusty is. It's a shame for you.

You have to get my dad on so you can explain it to you. One of the problems we have in this podcast is, Alistair refuses to explain any of this because he's so allergic to it, so scarred by the experience of labour in the 80s, that whenever I'm like, will you explain Millerton tendency, will you talk about Trotsky? He's like, nope, I don't want to talk about it. I'm not sure.

Alistair's the person you want talking about that anyway, to be fair. But I'll get my dad to come on and he can talk to you both about it. But, I mean, basically, you know, from each according to her ability to each according to her need is the sort of central tenet. of Marxism and that's that's my dad's belief system. He, he fought the far right all his life and he fought the far left as well. And actually during the difficult years under Labor, he was very helpful at helping me navigate that because he had to, you know, they meet in the middle really.

They come full circle. Why do they meet? Well, you know, there's a very, I think in a lot of ways. So the way that they do politics, which is to. to build up people's sense of grievance and anger, but then give it nowhere to go and it becomes very toxic and very dangerous. And it offers no route to real change for people.

It closes off the route to real change for people. And do you have arguments with him about that? Your politics is very different to that and you think that that politics is fundamentally impractical to help people from Wigan. No, he thinks that. So you think you're impractical. No, no.

He thinks that the far left and the far right are utterly impractical, as do I. and dangerous and toxic. You know, when he was being chased down dark alleys with bad people with baseball bats at sort of far right rallies, they were also, the far left were putting up pictures of him on the tube that said,

with pictures of his face, saying wanted Deepak Nandi, chock ice, which those of you who know about race relations will know is a really appalling thing that people say, when they say you're brown on the outside, white on the inside, as a way of trying to attack you.

There was a point where he was such a well-known figure that the left thought it was worth putting up his photograph on the tube. Yeah, so he was, I mean, he was a very big figure in the race relations world. People still come up to me and say to me that they knew him, they met him, they worked for him, they volunteered in that struggle. He knew people like Martin Luther King, they went over to the States to learn some of the techniques, things like the blind job application, that sort of thing. They brought those techniques back to the UK in order to sort of win that struggle.

And when I was a kid, I remember, he used to do a thing. every week he would debate Enoch Powell on national TV. They had a weekly slot. It's like Alastair and me. Yeah, well, it was sort of, I mean, it was, I mean, obviously, you know, this is much more historic and momentous to hear you two trying to explain football to each other. Much more important. It was quite an extraordinary childhood in the sense that I went to a very ordinary state school.

With Lucy Powell. With Lucy Powell. More people in the cabinet now from Parswood High School with Manchester than from Eaton, which was very tough to have been. infinitely more because you don't have anyone from you. That's true. And our first Prime Minister to go to Leeds, I think, Leeds University. Although it's not as good as Newcastle, just got to get that in there.

But it was quite an extraordinary childhood in the sense that, you know, my friends, like my best friend Jess, she still, I mean, she does vote now because I give her such a hard time. But, you know, she comes from a very ordinary working class background. And all of my friends at school were, we were just normal. kids growing up and something like being a member of parliament felt a million miles away. And yet I come from this extraordinary family where particularly my mum would always say, of course you can do it. But why did you end up labour? Well, my mum's labour.

But more than that, actually, I grew up in the 1980s. I was born in 79, the year that Margaret Thatch came to power. I grew up in the 1980s with two loving parents, but in a one parent household. when families like mine were absolutely under attack on every level from the government, they would talk about single mums in the most disgusting terms. And I remember walking out the house one day with my school uniform on, and I'd spilt my breakfast all the way down my front, which I always did, and I still do now, to be honest.

But my mum said to me, you can't do that. I remember how angry she was. She was almost frightened. She said, we are being held to a higher standard than other people, and you cannot go out of the house like that. They were talking about immigrants swamping this country. They meant people like my dad. There were notorious problems with the Greater Manchester,

the Manchester Police Force in those days. There was a chief constable called James Anderton, who was an out-and-out racist. And my dad was in running battles with them. It was the Mosside riots. My parents were very instrumental in changing the public perceptions of what was happening. Did you feel racism personally?

Yeah, always, always. I mean, the P-word was a sort of frequent slur around the school playground. And it just, you know, and the north of England in particular, felt like we were just under constant attack from our own government. And I found it really interesting when we got elected Rory in 2010, a lot of the maiden speeches, because it was people of our generation.

Nearly everybody mentioned Thatcher. On your side, it was in glowing terms, and in ours it was in not so glowing terms. But it was really interesting that she had that massive, her and her government had that massive profound impact on people of my generation. She radicalised you? I wouldn't say I'm radicalised. Radicalise as in made you political and made you want to have a political life.

I mean, my family is very political. I think I always would have been quite political. My dad used – because my dad's an academic, he always used to say to us, look, I'm not interested in your opinion. I'm interested in your reasons for holding them. And I remember once my sister having this massive argument with him and winning it about her right not to have an opinion at all and him being really chuffed that she'd managed to win the argument.

But him being an academic has always – it's really shaped my politics a lot because of this – this sort of idea in our family that you have to, challenging other people and being challenged back is part of the lifeblood of what makes this country really great. And it's one of the things I'm most like about care and serving in his team is that he very much comes from that tradition. But Lisa, actually, one of the things that I've always been struck by you is that actually you're surprisingly more than many MPs, quite sort of empathetic and quite good at reaching across divides. I remember that during the Brexit debate, you were actually,

I thought very good at sympathising with Romaine voters and Brexit voters. Unlike Alison. She didn't sympathise with me much. No, I didn't. I totally disagree with him on that. I totally disagree with him on that and we can get into that in a second. I remember you saying it feels like the entire political class has completely lost its mind. And I remember thinking that is the best summation of where we are that anyone's come up with.

It was extraordinary. I mean, I remember talking to you about this. I actually remember seeing you in Wiggin when I was running for the Tory leadership. But there was a sense of profound divisiveness. There was that moment after the election where I remember Tony Blair saying, I agree with Boris Johnson that there must be no compromise. I never said that. No, that was Tony Blair. I know.

I never said those. You were pretty uncompromising. I was uncompromising. I was uncompromising. Especially on social media. I remember you sitting in the green room of what was then the daily politics and we were waiting to go on. And you said to me, you must look after yourself. Don't look at social media because I was looking at Twitter, I think.

You said, don't look at social media. It's awful. I said, it's you. It's you tweeting abuse at me. That's why I can't look at it. And Lisa, we both represented constituencies in Northern which voted Brexit. What did you learn about that? And why do you think, looking back, were we not able to get to a sort of compromise soft Brexit that brought people together? Why do we end up in this?

And I think, obviously, part of the blame is on the hard Brexit side. I also think part of the blame is on the Alistair side of the kind of second referendum side, because both of them thought if they could destroy kind of customs union deals in the middle, one side thought we'll be able to stay

in the European Union, and the other side talk we'll be able to have a hard Brexit. Yeah, I mean, 52-48, as soon as I saw that result coming, I was at the National Count in Manchester. It's a mandate for compromise. We'd ask people to make the decision. I didn't. I didn't vote for the referendum,

but we asked people to make the decision. If you believe in democracy, then you believe that you respect that. I don't like the fact that we keep having Tory government selected, but we do, so you've just got to deal with it. But it meant that 48% of the country had obviously taken a different view, and that was a mandate for a soft Brexit in my view. It was a close relationship, but outside of the European Union. And for a few years, actually, that was exactly the place we were in. If you remember in 2017, everyone thought Labour would be wiped out in places like Wiggin and your former constituency.

But we weren't because I think actually the issue had been somewhat neutralised because people said, well, this is where we are. And then, of course, it all, you know, the fight continued. It got reopened. I think part of the problem with that actually was that. certainly on our side, but also on the conservative side, you had a complete breakdown of collective responsibility. Now, I'm somebody who has been mostly sacked, demoted, or resigned in every reshuffle I've been in and have been in frequent trouble with the whips for 14 years. And I do believe that politicians have to speak their mind and, you know, you're there to represent your constituents first and foremost, not your party. But the complete lack of collective

responsibility, the complete breakdown of that across the political parties made it very different. to get anything done. People weren't willing to compromise with one another. And I think what we really did was a big disservice to the country because we lost sight of the people in the country. You know, it's really telling to me, do you remember we tried to do this thing in the middle of it, where we tried to get a Citizens Assembly up and running. And there was a whole gang of us. So Rory and I were amongst them, but people like Stella Creasy, Caroline Lucas, Joe Swinson. And I remember the really sneery attitude from a lot of MPs saying, oh, sorry, I think that's your job, actually, to make these decisions.

But when they did do a Citizens Assembly, soft Brexit was exactly what people came up with. They just found a way to compromise and work their way through it. And for me, that's a difference to in politics and protest is that you're willing to negotiate your way through shared challenges

to get the right outcome for the majority of people. And protest is the opposite, standing on the sidelines and shouting. And I know Alistair's going to come in and really have a go at me now. But I really, honestly, I felt that that was mostly

what was going on in the political system at that time. Can I just about this one more? I mean, I think this, and I'm really pleased you remember that because I do hope we can return to thinking about things like Citizens' Assembly's more in the future because obviously our democracies in Europe and the US are in a bit of trouble, the model of representative democracy in trouble. And we need to think a little bit more about learning from Citizens' assemblies or New Zealand or Switzerland and start experimenting with different ways of involving people. We have to put people back at the centre of their own story. That was very much the sort of message that I gave to our amazing civil service team in DCMS when I took over a few days ago. Because actually governments don't change things, people do. And the job of government is to walk alongside them as a partner, helping them give voice to the country that we are.

If you look across this country, it is the story of ordinary, extraordinary people who every day quietly go off and work in their own communities to make this country better. And a few years ago when I ran to be Labor leader, I sat down with Danny Boyle, who was a Berry lad. So I went to college in Berry along with Jonathan Ashworth, my amazing former colleague. And I sat down with him and said to him that the Olympics opening ceremony in 2012 was the last time that I really felt that we told a story about ourselves as a nation that included all of our people in it that was positive and self-confident and outward looking. Absolutely. Yeah. But the people of the institutions, if you remember, the scenes for the NHS were about the people who make our national health service so great.

And I said to him, where did that country go? Because very quickly after 2012, what you had was the Indyref up in Scotland. You had the dramatic rise of UKIP that went from nowhere to come second or third in so many constituencies that had never ever allowed the far right to get a foothold before. You had Brexit. We found multiple ways to divide ourselves from one another. we lost the ability to understand one another and we became what felt like a very angry nation

and he said to me that country is still there it's just waiting for someone to give voice to it and that is your job and I really felt that sense of responsibility walking through those doors into Downing Street notwithstanding that I was relieved to be fully clothed but I really felt that sense of responsibility walking through because there is a better country out there

than the governments that we've had and that is my mission that over the next five years I am going to make sure that we do everything that we can from this department that is the beating heart of that soul of the country to enable people to tell that story again. Okay, Secretary of State. Alistair, quick break. Hi, everybody. It's Dominic Samaruk here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Rest is History, which is all about Britain in.

the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history,

we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alastair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout.

Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. we have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode and if you want to hear more just search for the rest is history wherever you get your podcasts no look we don't want to revisit the whole Brexit argument because we'll be here all day we're doing the poll later okay but I do I think it's worth just

reflecting though because I felt at the time that the decision was so consequential and potentially going to be so damaging for the country that and I made I was one of the few things you made no bones about it, I felt it had to be stopped if we could. And the people's vote for me was a way to try to do that. And I've never hidden that. And I still feel that the damage done to the country already has been vast. And I worry, there's nobody happier than I'm that you're in power. But I do worry about this. No customs union, no single market. I think we're still in the position of listening to what we think was the will of the people back then, but where I think the will

of the people's already moved and neither of the main parties are addressing that now. That's my worry about where we are now. I remember talking to you about this at Tessa Jowell's funeral. So I had a very poignant moment this week because Tessa was my political. She was like my political mum, basically. She fished me off the back benches as a, if you remember back in 2010, I was the hard left of the Labour Party before all the Corbyn stuff happened. And I was her PPS on the Olympics and she was wonderful all the way through until she died. She looked after me. In fact, Even after she died, I got a phone call from her wonderful staffer, Liam, who is now the newly elected MP for Beckenham.

And he said, he broke the horrible news. And I said, can I say something? Can I go out and say something publicly about how wonderful she was? And he said, she's already written it. And I thought it's just wonderful. It's just so Tessa. But I had this moment this week where, I mean, she was the Culture Secretary who brought the Olympics to Britain.

And I thought she would be bursting with pride. but she would also be bossing me around something chronic. And I really had this very big pang of sort of, I miss that. But I remember talking to you about this at her funeral. And I think the problem with where I think people like you ended up with was that I don't think that, and you know, you can say that you think this is unfair. But I don't think you made enough effort to understand what was driving Brexit. And it wasn't just about the European Union. I know that's one of the things that drove you mad about it was that it wasn't just about the European Union.

But actually it was this real sense that people had, that they had been, that the contribution that they have to make had been completely written off. You know, Keir made a really important speech two years ago. For me, it was his most important speech he's ever made where he said, for too long, our plan for most of the country has been one word redistribution. And my government is going to respect the contribution that people have to make. So if you look at what is running through, everything that we're doing is a new government, like a silver thread, whether it's the work that I'm doing, to get more of our arts, culture, heritage from every part of the country reflected in our national story, whether it's the work, you know, putting sports like rugby league up front and centre, whether it's the stuff that Johnny Reynolds is doing with Ed Miliband on the industrial strategy,

really great jobs in parts of the country where within living memory people powered the world through dangerous, difficult work in the minds. And giving their children and grandchildren the right to power us through the next century, through clean energy, you look at all the work that we're doing is about putting people back in charge of their own destiny and respecting the contribution that they've got to make. And that, for me, is the answer to Brexit, actually. That's the answer to what people were clamouring for when they came out and voted in very large numbers to leave in places like Wigan.

Yeah, but I also do think, though, and I was really pleased that one of the first things that Kier Staddy talked about standards in public life and you talking about ministerial interests and that sort of stuff, I just felt that such a close result being delivered and let's be honest, without Farage and Johnson, it wouldn't have happened and that that sort of politics is still there. Anyway, listen, you're shaking yet because we're not going to agree.

Roy and I'm raising our eyebrows. We're not going to agree. But honestly, I think this growth mission, if we don't fix some of the mess of Brexit, the growth mission is not going to be delivered. Well, okay, lobbying taken. I think what you'll have heard from David Lammy is a very clear message. that these are our, his first visit was to Europe. These are our closest neighbours.

They should be our closest friends and closest allies, starting particularly with Ireland. You know, we recognise what Brexit has done to Ireland. And we want to make sure, certainly the way that Brexit was done has been very difficult for people there. And we want to make sure that we rebuild those relationships and repair them. And that's been a day one priority. And so honestly, Alistair, I'll come back on in five years time. and you can do what you never do. You can eat your words.

Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. But I'll tell you, we've got to fix it. That's my point. We can't pretend it's not happening. Now, listen, we haven't got a long left. Rory's trying to talk. Let Rory talk. You've got to go to a very, very important.

We haven't even gotten to your brief, really. BBC. Yeah. And, you know, in the message that you gave yesterday when you were talking to your staff about the culture war was over, the BBC has been part of the Cultural War, what's your general position on the BBC and how do you see the BBC's future? Well, I'm a big supporter of the BBC and the whole notion of public service broadcasting.

You know, my mum's from an investigative journalist background. I think it's incredibly important that politicians set the framework right, but don't stray into trying to lecture people on what content can be produced. You know, whether it's the BBC or the Daily Mail, it's not my job to do that. And you'll see a very different approach from us in government around that. You know, getting the framework right is important to me. but trying to police what is said or is not said is completely inappropriate. Leverson 2 not to be revisited? Well, at the moment, I'm trying to find a place to plug my phone in in the department.

I haven't managed to find a plug socket yet. So give us a few days. I'm only five days in. But for me, actually, the priority when it comes to the media is that for a very long time, we've had real problems, particularly with our local media, local papers, regional and local radio. Very much so. Although, you know, hesitate to say death of because there are some amazing local papers and journalists.

But, you know, I think about my stepdad, for example, he was the editor of World in Action for 20 years at Granada TV. He was working class lad from Berry, first in his family to go on, even to grammar school. It got into grammar school. His mum had to go without food just to afford his school uniform. They were immensely proud of him, first in his family to go to university. He got his big breakthrough. local papers and worked his way up to become the editor of World in Action. I don't know where that pipeline is anymore for young people from constituencies like mine. And I want to change that

because who tells the story determines what the story is and what gets reported. And that's really important. So I'm off on my first visit this week. I'm off to Barry to tell a bit of that story and to meet some of the people who can be involved in changing that. The BBC is one of them because that moved to Media City up in Salford. I mean, long before leveling up was even a slogan, that is the best example of leveling up that I've ever seen because it hasn't just changed the fact that kids from my constituency now can get jobs in the media industry,

but it's changed the range of voices that you see on your national news every single day. So, you know, a lot to be celebrated about the BBC and the work that they've been doing. A lot of challenges ahead, but, you know, give me a chance. I've got to find my phone charge. your first. Amazing election result, but Labor's still got just over a third of the people voting for Labor. And one of the challenges, I think, is how over the next five years you begin to bring more voters over to Labor, even though you've got this huge majority, just more people

voting for you. How would you pitch to somebody like me, so somebody who's a kind of floating voter, soft left of the Conservative Party, or somebody more like your grandfather, your mother's father, how would you explain your project to people like us so that we would vote for you? There was a phrase that Keir used when he first addressed the nation as the Prime Minister about a government that would tread lightly on people's lives. And I think that's really important because one of the ways that I've been sort of watching with astonishment and horror watching what's happening in the Conservative Party in recent years is the way in which a party that traditionally has been very much, you know,

for sort of, you know, freedom and very associated with that concept. I made a speech about freedom when I was first elected and I said, we've got to reclaim this from the right as a notion. And I wouldn't need to make that speech now because it became a very sort of interventionist heavy-handed, you know, particularly in my area. I mean... So illiberal. Yeah, illiberal, yeah, lecturing people about the lives that they lead and constraining the choices that are available to people. And I think for someone

with your politics, Rory, and we know it should be reasonably well. I would say that that notion of a government that is utterly devoted to the services of the country, where the priorities that people have in the country are therefore important to us as a consequence and that will defend and support them, but we'll do so in a way that isn't dictatorial, but walks alongside people in order to achieve their own ambitions. I would say that that is something that can bring people together right now. And bringing people together is the most important job that this government will have. We've had a horrible decade and a half. It's been the darkest decade and a half in my lifetime. And we've found multiple ways to divide ourselves from one

another. And we've got to pull together and move forwards as a country. So that will be my pitch. Very good. Well, look, you've got to go off to a very important football match. And my last question, I think, is because you've got, you're speaking here to, this is going to be more lobbying. Okay. I hope you don't mind. Expect anything less. You don't have to give a complete answer now. So here you are in the studio of the UK's number one podcast. You probably know that. You may not know that BBC are going to allow advertising on their podcasts. Now, it doesn't worry us too much because we're doing pretty well. But I just think there's maybe lots of big questions attached to that because that will hit the smaller podcast pretty, pretty hard. So just asking

for you to look at that issue when that comes across the guest. So actually, my stepdad had very strong views about this. As an investigative journalist, he felt very, very strongly that because they were at Granada, obviously, there was advertising, but he felt very, very strongly that that could create a conflict of interest and restrain the space for investigative journalism without fear or favour. So I can sort of almost hear his voice in my ear right now. He died a few years ago of cancer, but I can almost hear his voice in my ear saying you need to look at that and take it seriously. So not for you, but for him. I will look at it. I don't care where it comes from.

My final bit of lobbying, which is so obvious, I don't know any need to say. But we'd love to have you back in, let's say, a year's time, because it'd be lovely to get a sense of you remembering now what you thought your job was, where it is in years time. So I'll probably tease you in a year's time and say, really, you spend a lot of time talking about sport and not a great deal of time in the first interview talking about the other bits of the job. You talked about media and sport. You've talked less about. Well, you haven't asked me about any of it, in fairness. I mean, I could wax lyrical about theatre till the cows come home. music and particularly, you know, for kids in places like Wig and we're home to the Verve

and lots of other great musicians over the years, but the live music venues have disappeared. We talked about sport, but we didn't talk about grassroots sport, which is the visible symbol in communities of how much our kids matter to us. So these will be some of the things that are my priority. So I'll tell you what, ask me back on in a year's time and let me talk about some of those things. Because honestly, and actually, you'll like this one, Alistair, but, you know, there's been a real impact of the Brexit deal that we've got. on musicians in particular being able to tour. These are all things that we've got to deal with as a government.

How much do you think is about money? What musicians tour are. No, the challenges you're going to face to try and get these things improved. There's a challenge around money, particularly because if you look at the arts in particular, when it comes to private philanthropy, it tends to be in London and the big, great institutions.

Arts outside of London tends to be council funded, and council funding has been devastated over the last decade. and a half and it's meant that the arts is often the first thing to be cut. And I remember being in Stoke a few years ago and I did question time and the audience were telling me after the event that after the show had finished that they were really, they were livid because the council had put on an exhibition about ceramics and a lot of the ceramics on display had come from China, which for anyone who knows the history of Stoke will know is just an enormous insult. But you know, we've got the jewelry quarter in Birmingham. We've got the ceramics industry in

Stoke, brass bands in my constituency, massive, you know, part of our heritage and cultural legacy. And they're all the things that have been most impacted by the cuts to council funding. So we've got to find a way of making sure that the funding that is there gets to the right places and supports a diversity of things. My favourite museum in the whole country is the People's History Museum in Manchester. And it's never, it's funded by all of our local councils across Greater Manchester because we know how important it is.

I don't think it's ever had a penny of government money. So I've already asked the civil servants to look at where all that money is, who's being appointed to the boards, where they come from in the country, you know, so the decisions are being made by people who understand the richness and diversity of our arts are our cultural heritage and the importance of that to communities. So in a year's time, ask me back on and I'll tell you how I'm getting on. Thank you. And final, final question.

Because one of the things we've talked... Not Brexit again, Alastair. No, no. One of the things Roy and I've talked about a lot is the... is this the need, particularly after the recent years, for a bit of ministerial stability. Has Keir sort of given an indication that... No, in fact, I am... Rishaphylitis is not a big thing.

No, in fact, I... I mean, he said that publicly, but to me, sadly, it's been very much the opposite. So, at the first cabinet meeting, he said... He said, if you balls it up, you're out. Yeah, he said, the emphasis is on delivery. What I want that to be is your watchword. Write it on the wall in your office. I want delivery. And then he said, and Lisa in particular, if you don't do...

deliver the right result in the euros, then you'll be the shortest-lived appointment I make. You can't be held responsible for that. You should be held responsible for that. Definitely held a response to all your things. And Gareth, you must trust. Well, Lisa, thank you for coming in. No, thanks a lot. Good luck in the Euros. Yeah, thanks very much.

There's a lot riding on it for me, so yeah, fingers crossed. Thank you again. Bye-bye. So, Rory, that was one very excited cabinet minister. A tremendous, really great appointment and makes me very cheerful. We all have different favorites, but I think her style of communication, her story, the grace with which she handles it, I'm really excited that she's in the team. I'm disappointed in a way. I mean, one of the sad things is this reshufflitis is absolutely there.

I spent an hour and a half with the Labor Shadow Prisons Minister just a week before the election, who was then replaced. I spent a long time. Yeah, but good replacement, James Simpson. But the amount of time I'm spending briefing Labor ministers on portfolios where they're then moved to another portfolio. It's interesting. You talked about the access talks. And of course, the access talks, for those that don't know, is where shadow ministers before an election can meet civil servants, can talk through their priorities. It's interesting.

The switch was pretty limited, though. There wasn't that much change. It was relatively limited. But Lisa had really got into the international development brief. She was very patient. We had an hour on the phone when I was picking kids up from school trying to talk about direct cash transfers. So I'm sorry about that, but I'm really pleased she's taken this role. I suspect, but maybe this is just wishful thinking, that some of the stuff I want to hear more about,

which is archaeology, the National Trust, Hadrian's Wall. She mentioned the National Trust in her speech? The British Museum, classical music. I bet she's more interested in that she's letting on. I think she's on. Oh, yeah. No, listen, I think if I were an MP and could pick a minister, I think the two, obviously there's foreign office and treasury, you know, goes without saying a really, really interesting and

etc. But the two of the rest of them that I would most be attracted by would be Northern Ireland and DCMS. Well, you'd love that because you love music and you love sport. I mean, it couldn't be a better. I'm quite cultural, right? Yeah, absolutely. No, it's not. I'm not denying that at all.

And also you'd be in charge of the media. But when you think about sort of culture, which is partly your music side, but also you're going to theatre, media, which you love and sport. I mean, it couldn't be a better job for you could it. Is this a pitch that we're going? No, it's not a pitch. It's really not a pitch. And I hope Lisa's phased there. You're trying to.

No, I want Lisa to stay there for the entire parliament. And I think Tessa Jow is an interesting role model to choose because it's one of those jobs, I think, where you don't automatically have massive budgets. And often within government, budget is what sort of gives you the levers. But you can do great things and achieve great things. But you also have some of the most articulate, creative people in the country on your side, if you make friends for them. So you then have Anthony Gormley advocating for you. Did you see what, the size of the donation he made to labour?

Anthony Gornley gave half a million pounds to labour. What's a man. I wonder if we sort of, you know, wonder if that was really much. I wonder if we radicalised him in this very studio. But no, I mean, I think it's incredible. And Tessagel, I think I've said to you before, the reason she's burnt into my memory and why I admire her so much, is I remember her just making a very simple speech saying the number one question she always asked herself, but she went to a hospital is, would my

mum want to be in that hospital? And I just think in that phrase, there's everything that you need to know about Tessa Jal and how to do politics. But the other thing about Lisa, she was down playing it, but I think to have been, because as you know, ups and downs in politics can be very, very personal, very, very humiliating. So she was shadow foreign secretary. She was almost leader. She was third in the leadership election. She very bravely stood against Jeremy Corbyn and was right. I mean, you would say totally right. Corbyn was a disaster

for the Labour Party and she was one of a group of very courageous Labour MPs who were like, we're not putting up with this, we're not having anything to do that. It's the wrong direction. Whereas Kirstama, who went with Jeremy Corbyn, served in a shadow cabinet as now leader. So there will be parts of her will think, wait a second, I made the right call on Jeremy Corbyn.

I was third in the leadership. I'm a pretty impressive individual. I was shadowed foreign secretary. And then as you say, she got to murder. She doesn't phrase it like that, but the reality is that development job wasn't. That's what I've seen. What she didn't do was going win. She didn't brief against Keir in the press or much that I could tell. And she then has now, you know, ended up in what you got the feeling was a job that she absolutely loves and feels she can make a different.

Who's not going to love that job? But I also think, I mean, it's another thing. I mean, we're not into the kind of anthropology of people's backgrounds. But there's a sort of hint of two types of labor here that we're seeing in our interviews. There's the labor of Angela Rainer with that astonishing story of a mother who basically couldn't read or write growing up in intergenerational poverty beyond imagining. I mean, she said that her mother and her... And then you've got the intellectual left. And then you've got the intellectual left.

You know, her father with his star double first, his 9A levels, the Marxist intellectual. Her mother who, you know, yes, I'm sure it was very tough, but she was, you know, the head of a major department in Granado. So her stepfather was head of current affairs at Granada. Her grandfather was a lord. And I think it's, I mean, again, that encourages me because I do think this process of reunifying is partly about not, about reunifying every bit of Britain. And I think what I like about these is that I saw it in Brexit, but I can see it also with that, that she's somebody who is able to sympathize with lots of different bits of Britain. I think she understands London well and she understands the North. I think she understands kind of liberal public school educated,

blue-winning peers with right-on-mowers and enormous parts because that's her grandfather and her mother's childhood. She's not over the Brexit debate, though. She's still arguing away with me, which she knows I was right. That's because she and I are right and you're wrong, Alistair, and that's just the basic thing. Well, on that false note, let's end this episode of the rest is politics leading. See you soon. See you soon.

Thank you, Alice. Bye-bye.