The Ricochet Podcast - Frozen Lizards and Steel Walls

Episode Date: January 11, 2019

The Big Show is back on the interwebs for another year of civil and clever conversation. Kicking off 2019 with us (sadly, Rob is off this week), are two old pals: Mickey Kaus and Byron York. The latter on the shut down, the new Congress and Byron’s new podcast (coming next week!). Mickey, aka “America’s Most Unusual Democrat” stops by to explain The Wall and whether or not any of it, some of it... Source

It's the Ricochet Podcast with Peter Robinson. I'm James Lileks, and today we talk to Byron York about the shutdown and Mickey Kaus about the wall. Let's have ourselves a podcast. Welcome, everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast number 430. And yes, it's been a while. We've been off, but now we're back. And here comes some throat-clearing conversation about the holidays that nobody cares about. Peter? I had lovely holidays, James. Good, me too.

All right, so we're done with that now. Good. How's the weather in Minnesota? Oh, well, I'm glad you asked. There's a disc up in the sky of a particular hue. And now and then, come months from now, you may feel its photons fall upon your face with a certain heft. Now it is just like the brushing of a moth's wing against your cheek. And not even a fat moth, but a moth that hasn't been eating very well.

The sun is useless. And so it's about 20 degrees, but it's better than what it's been, which has been about two. So there we have it. Not only do we bore you with some conversation about our holidays, but we're boring you with our conversation about the weather. And that's what happens when we live in this time when there's just nothing going on. I mean, don't you long, Peter, for

contentious clashes of ideas, of notions, of dramas sweeping the globe, but here we are. Especially after the holidays, to re-enter this first couple of weeks in January to such boredom, such good. It's like the Aldous Huxley world where we just

sit around and watch the feelies and pump ourselves full of nice chemicals and wish that there was a life of high adventure to wait. Well, of course, no. Everything is going on. Everything has always been going on. It's been our heads in a blender since for the last couple of years. We look back on the wonderful days of yore and say,

gosh, we had no idea what was coming. But here we are, and the government shut down, and we're supposed to care. We're going to get to that. We're going to talk to Mickey Krause today. We're going to talk to Byron York about the shutdown and all these other things, and maybe even that wall I keep hearing something about.

But before we do, this is Ricochet, as you know. And if you go to the site, and you do, you must have seen that there was a bit of discussion about Tucker Carlson's manifesto. Mona weighed in with a piece not particularly complimentary about it. People bashing about it in the comments. Peter, you read the Tucker manifesto where he sort of lays out what he believes to be the problems and the solutions. And it seems to be, if I'm taking him right, that our leaders don't care enough about our lives. Yeah, something like that. He lays out the problems much more extensively than he lays out the solutions.

He only hints at a solution or two. The solution is, as the piece concludes, is that we need leaders who care. The reason he doesn't lay out the solutions is the solutions are elusive. But I thought it was a very, very impressive piece. He is saying economics is not the be-all and end-all. You take it back to the 1980s. I've been paying attention to this because the rising generation from, on the Republican side,

Ramesh, Panuru, Ross Douthat, Rehan Salan, they're rather dismissive of Reaganomics. They're dismissive of the notion that economics solves everything. Well, of course, what they don't realize, because they weren't around at the time, is that the Reaganomics, and this I believe is what Tucker is getting at, in the old days,

which were not all that long ago, you could talk about free markets because it was understood that families were important, that drugs were bad, that cutting taxes and reducing the role of government would permit economic resurgence across the country. And by the way, that is just what happened during the Reagan boom of the 1980s. But now we have this – the collapse of the family, drug use, and Tucker Carlson is saying – and his point of departure was Mitt Romney's attack on Donald Trump and where Mitt Romney – Romney was mostly concerned with attacking Donald Trump. But to the extent that Romney talked about his own policy prescriptions, it was more tax cuts, small government and so forth. And Tucker says, no, that is not enough anymore. The problem now is something basic is happening to the very fabric of our society.

The American family is in free fall, except, of course, among the wealthy, the elite, the privileged, who actually not only go to fancy schools, but get married and have children after they're married. But among enormous swaths of American society, Tucker makes the point that conservatives were wide awake to the problem when it was the inner cities that were collapsing because conservatives could then say, oh, the problem is big government. The welfare state is undermining the role of the father. Southern Ohio, the opioid epidemic where drug overdoses last year were the leading cause of death in Ohio ahead of cancer. It's just – okay. So Tucker is saying, wait a minute. The Republican Party needs to stop talking about tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts and start talking about the American family. And I have to say, I loved this line. It said, the country needs to listen to ordinary

people and the goal of American politics should now be, and I'm quoting, a country where normal people with an average education who grow up in no place special can get married and have happy kids and over to you james but that strikes me as a pretty good formulation of the goal we need to adopt at the current moment well how is mit romney at all keeping people from getting married and having happy kids uh he's i'm not i'm not going to defend or even entirely it or even entirely – What's keeping people from doing this now? What's keeping people from doing it now? Right.

Good. The question would be why aren't they doing it now? Tucker goes on. Tucker's answer. Because the Chalks were yanked away from the wheels. The whole culture – not the whole culture, but a great portion of the culture embraced two notions of the left. One, anti-family, for whatever reason, because it's a remnant of a sexist, heteronormative patriarchy, etc. We have to make fun of, leave it to Beaver and all the rest of that stuff, Hardy Har.

And the other thing is normalizing and elevating single parenthood to a sort of martyrdom status, Murphy Brown et al. And then also carrying forward the tune in, turn on, drop out. And I know these are just old, pathetic references. But ever since the 60s, there's been the idea the drugs are great. They're a gateway to new understanding and that only people like – only withered old desiccated scolds like Nancy Reagan who want to say – who want you to just say no are the sort of people who are opposing this hedonistic – so when you have a society that says enjoy yourself by whatever means necessary. Don't take any particular steps to tie you down to something that is going to reduce your enjoyment. Live your life and when you add to that something else about um you know when tucker talks about manufacturing being

on the down correct yes yes this used to be a way of giving men a sort of um place in life and that's true but you also had concomitant with the decline of manufacturing which is which is a contentious subject on its own as we saw in the comments. People are arguing the stats, but we can say that there was an era where a guy could pick up a lunch bucket and go down to the spring factory or the widget place and then come home and that whole thing, which was rare, which existed at a particular time for a particular set of reasons that are going to be difficult to duplicate. But there was at least the idea that this is what a man did. Now we have a culture which has embraced the idea

that any sort of old line masculinity is toxic and that men themselves are damaged creatures that women are best not dealing with, concomitant with a sort of raising up of women as all powerful and yet all victim at the

rest of it that makes a lot of young men saying, I'm checking out of this because it's simply easier to dial a porn hub on my computer and then to play Xbox. And that pretty much gets the basics done. So you have a combination of things. I mean, you, you have all these cultural remnants that loosened up the straights in the,

in the late fifties and early sixties, finally becoming utterly mainstream and endorsed by everybody and nobody pushing back and good luck in anybody who does good luck and the first person who gets up there and says that we should that you know that you should marry more and you should have kids and if possible one of them should stay home all of those things are retrograde notions that the lip that the elites themselves will defend in their own lives, but God forbid that they should expect the proles to do it. Right.

So may I, a word of admiration for you, Mr. Lilacs, because your explanation was better than Tucker's. Tucker didn't go into the cultural reasons for the decline the way you just did and the way you just did magnificently. Tucker said what we've had is a decline in manufacturing, decline in male wages in rural America, which has caused the collapse of the family. And that's about a half step away from saying that the answer to that is some sort of industrial policy, redirect federal funds, set up programs. In other words, what concerns me, my fundamental criticism of Tucker, and as I said, he gets about 90 percent of what he says right in my judgment.

It needs saying. Nevertheless, there's an implication there that it's up to the government to solve this problem by redistributing sources, resources. The Democrats want to redistribute resources to their people. And now Tucker is saying, well, we Republicans now support a rural population. We need to redistribute resources in their – no. The correct answer is the answer just provided by James – the correct analysis is the analysis just provided by James Lilacs. Well, thank you. That's a lot. And they had to just essentially give them to farm families. And he was raised on a farm? No, they didn't have a farm.

They went from place to place, rented, sometimes in the countryside where the kids would work, and then they'd get to school when they can. And then if they could find a shack in town, they'd find a shack in town, and they'd do utterly itinerant. And what saved my father and several of his brothers was the United States government when the United States government declared war on Japan. That gave them an opportunity to get up and out, and they did. But everybody in the family, everybody in that family essentially made it. And even the one who made it the least still made it. He had a job as a janitor at the local airport, but he had a job. And none of these were manufacturing jobs. None of these were those old line smokestack jobs.

They were just the sort of innumerable quotidian little things that happened in a small town. They would – some came back, some didn't. But what – and they all got married except for one. And so they were raised with a certain set of ideas that you work. However you do it, you find work and you get married and you don't have this. James, how many days in his life? How old is your dad now? Ninety three.

Ninety three. How many days? By the way, this is my father's been gone for years, but he died relatively young. But he would have been he would have been about he'd be about 100 now, I think. The point is, however, that my father grew up during the Depression and graduated from Johnson City High School in Johnson City, New York. And the only job that was available was digging ditches for the Johnson City Public Works Department until the war came. A very similar story. So let me ask you this. How many days in your father's life did he sit around feeling sorry for himself, do you suppose, out of 94 years? Well, zero.

I mean, now he's a bit, you know, everybody he knows has died, frankly, and he's got just one sister left, and there's not a tremendous amount for him to do, which is why he likes to get in the truck and drive 200 miles with 6,000 gallons of Avgas. I mean, he still has his license to drive semi so he does or go to the casino but prior to that the number of you know he absolutely never sat around felt sorry for himself he's a guy who you know whose twin brother died a story i think i've told in this podcast before because the family medical it couldn't get medical attention they're turned away from a hospital for being the wrong faith they were turned away from another hospital for not having enough money and finally got a county doctor to come by and that quack killed his twin brother and i've never heard a single i mean this this was what

life was so the expectations of comfort and ease that we have in my our children's generation have is utterly alien to what they did and it it it it made a stronger breed of people but then again these are the people who promptly when they got back from the war started voting and all the things that would take society away and raise the boomers who the worst generation ever uh you know and i can just imagine really i mean just i just imagine them all sitting around looking you know at having fought the war and made it safe and their kid is sitting downstairs listening to the birds jangly guitars and thinking where have we gone wrong and those poor dads those poor moms who would hear that din from the basement never had, you know, the sort of tools that we have to keep ourselves calm today.

But we do have tools. And, you know, even with Rob, not on the podcast, you're still showing him what you can do. Well, we have wonderful sponsors to talk about before we get to Byron. And when I say calm, calm is a state. Calm is also an app. This is a new year, right? That means an opportunity to reset, turn the etch-a-sketch upside down, establish some new habits for a happier and healthier self.

You can join a gym. You can eat better. You know, all that stuff. But improving your physical health isn't the only resolution to consider. We can resolve also to improve our mental well-being as well. And that's why we're always excited to tell you about Calm. It's the number one app to help you sleep, meditate, and relax. I got you at sleep, didn't I? Well, if you head to calm.com slash ricochet, you'll get 25% off a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of programs, including well-guided meditations

on issues like anxiety, stress, and focusing, including a brand-new meditation each day called The Daily Calm. There's also sleep stories, which are like bedtime stories for adults. They're designed to help you relax before you doze off. Head to the lavender fields of France with Stephen Fry or explore New Zealand with Jerome Flynn

from Game of Thrones. Bob Ross is even in there, too, painting a happy little tree, perhaps. There's soothing music, breathing exercises, gentle stretches to relax your body and so much more. What I love about it, frankly, is music. I sometimes would listen to just white noise to get me to go to sleep, but it would remind me of blizzards in North Dakota, which would make me sort of anxious. The music helps. It all helps. You'll feel much more calm if you go to Calm.com slash Ricochet. 25% off a Calm premium subscription at Calm.com. That's C-A-L-M.com slash Ricochet. Get unlimited access to all of Calm's content today at Calm.com slash Ricochet. Give yourself the gift of calm and a happy and healthy

2019. And our thanks to Calm for sponsoring this, the Ricochet podcast. James, not now because we want to get to Byron, but when we wrap this show, I just want you to be on notice that I'm going to come back to you and say exactly how is it that white noise reminds you of lizards

in North Dakota? I said blizzards. Oh, blizzards! I thought you said lizards in north dakota i said blizzards oh blizzards i thought you said lizard yes great huge fields of albino lizards coming across the plain their tongues licking out at the frigid air hissing hissing as they come the dreams haunt me still the komodo dragons of fargo i had no idea what oh thank you all right All right, fine. Back to you. Let's get to Byron. Yes, yes, go ahead. Exactly. Byron York currently sending himself on a nice stone somewhere in D.C. Chief Political Correspondent

of the Washington Examiner and host of the newly minted Byron York Show right here on Ricochet. That will drop, as the kids say, to use a term that I absolutely hate, next week. Byron, welcome. You're in D.C. We expect the tumbleweeds are blowing across Pennsylvania Avenue. The spiderwebs are gathering in all the buildings.

It must be just eerie, the calm, the desolation. So in this shutdown, it can't last forever, can it? What's going to happen? Actually, we're just waiting to see what AOC says next. That's what I'm doing. Well, she's quoting Watchmen is what she's doing. She's quoting alt-right vigilante costumed's quoting Watchmen is what she's doing. She's quoting alt-right vigilante costumed characters

in her tweets is what she's doing. Did you see what she said to Joe Lieberman? Joe Lieberman, who is 76 years old, former senator, said he hopes that AOC does not really represent the future of the Democratic Party, to which she

tweeted response, quote, new party, who dis? That is a burn, as they say. That is throwing shade. That is clapping back. And of course, that means that her tax policies and economic theories should be adopted by all because she's clever on Twitter. Absolutely.

We're headed to 90 percent. You know, on the shutdown, you know, I shutdown, I've just been thinking about the shutdown. And I have been reading the Trump proposal and talking to people at DHS about what it would actually involve, what kind of barrier it would involve, what kind of other stuff like more agents, more enforcement, more beds, more medical help, more high-tech drug-detecting technology, all of this stuff. This is a very standard sort of immigration package that could – a border security package that could easily, in a non-Trump context, have large bipartisan support. I mean, it's just, you know, when you, Trump, if he got the $5 billion. Wait, you mean he's not planning to electrify the fence? No, whatever. Although he could do it in a green, he could make it a green fence.

He could have solar panels at the top. He actually talked about that at one time. He ought to bring that idea back. See if Pelosi calls that immoral. But anyway, basically what they're saying is that in addition to the barrier that they've already put up, and they hope to have 115 miles of it by later on this year. In addition to that, if they got the $5 billion, they'd put another 215 miles up for a total of 330 miles, of which 150 would be in areas that are currently unfenced. But the majority of it would be replacing old, dilapidated, inadequate fencing. I mean, this is exactly the sort of thing that Congress would do to, you know,

make, improve, and upgrade old, dilapidated fencing. And some of it was made. And that would be too boring for anybody even to report, wouldn't it? Yes. This is just, some deal would get cut in committee, the staffers would handle it, the senators would vote on it, it'd move to and just get done right the amount of yes and the amount of new uh barrier let's call it a barrier would be 150 miles and that's what and all the other stuff all the other stuff the new agents the high tech the medical resources all of that stuff is just kind of standard Congress stuff.

So we have this weird shutdown in which both sides, the policy it issues is something that both sides basically agree about. Now, the last big shutdown we had, well, there was a little one last year, but in 2013, it was a big shutdown and it was about defunding Obamacare. So there's a clear policy difference. Republicans wanted to get rid of Obamacare, and Democrats wanted to preserve Obamacare. So they fought about that. Here, there's really not that much. Absent Trump, there's really not that much difference. The DHS has put out where they plan, you know, what sectors of the border they plan to replace fencing and build fencing, where the new fencing would go. This is an exact number of miles they plan to do this.

You can look it up. And all of this other stuff, you know, we hear that, oh, Trump's plan is unworkable because he talks about drugs. And in fact, most of the drugs come across the border at ports of entry. Well, if you look at the proposal, it specifically says, I'll read it, specifically $675 million would provide non-intrusive inspection technology, that's NII technology, at inbound lanes at U.S. southwest border land ports of entry and allow CBP to deter and detect more contraband, including narcotics. He's doing exactly the same thing that people would want him to do. And yet, here we are. Well, let me just build for a second on what Byron was saying.

And you were saying that the Democrat, you know, essentially there's a point here around which they could agree. That may be so. But the Democrats have the problem that the left flank of their party does not want the wall because they don't want enforcement. Enforcement is cruel. ice is the gestapo what we want is to have open borders opening up citizenship for all to come in so they are are they covering themselves with resistance uh you know to uh deflector tickets to make it look like uh you know we're opposing this because it's from Trump. They can't give Trump his wall even though they may not.

There was a piece in the New York Times a couple of days ago that they're talking about this in terms almost totally of a shutdown and people not being paid and totally in a governmental sense because they really are soft on border security, but they can't say that. So they can't come out and say, look, we don't want border security. By the way, a lot of them seem to be kind of drifting toward what used to be called a virtual fence. There was a lot of talk about that around the Secure Fence Act in 2006 and again with the Gang of Eight in 2013, where people would say, no, no, you don't need to build a fence along the border. You can have a high-tech virtual fence with infrared sensors and drones and cameras and microphones and all of this stuff. Well, the difference between the two

is, with a virtual, a virtual fence does not stop anybody from coming into the United States. You just catch them. And with the change in the inflow from Mexico, that is fewer adult males who could be apprehended and quickly turned around and returned, far more like two-thirds, what I'm told, two-thirds families or unaccompanied children who cannot be turned around and returned, who actually are admitted to the United States, basically cannot be returned. The difference between a virtual fence and a real fence is huge because in a virtual fence, they walk up, say, we'd like to get asylum, even though they don't have a valid claim. But in a real fence, they don't cross. That's a huge, huge difference. So that's why I think we're hearing Democrats talking about technology because they know it won't stop anyone. in York, sounding like a reporter, sounding like somebody who's actually gone into the facts behind all of this. Question.

To my judgment, Trump's weakest point is the one that I'm about to raise, and I honestly can't quite figure out what the answer is or how he should answer it. He just went through two years in which Republicans controlled both houses of Congress. Why didn't he get his darned $5.7 billion out of them? Totally valid question. And there's not a lot of really good answers. First of all, for a while, there was always something that he needed more, like a tax cut. Second of all, his big chance occurred in March of last year, 2018, with a big appropriations bill, spending bill. And a couple of things happened. Trump had done something rather brilliant before that,

which is that he took everybody in DACA hostage. What he did was he announced that he would rescind DACA six months after his announcement. Right. And after that, there were all these stories, oh my God, all these people, they'll be rounded up and deported and blah, blah, blah. And then he said, well, you know,

maybe we don't have to deport everybody. Maybe we could actually give legal status to DACA people if you would give me $25 billion for my wall. Now, that was a perfect deal. Perfect deal. Trump had no problem with legalizing everybody by the broadest definition in DACA. And then he'd get the wall money. And the idea was it would be actual real money. It would be money put in a trust fund at the president's discretion, not, you know, promised in the future kind of money. And a couple of things happened.

Trump added a number of conditions. Remember, he talked about ending chain migration. There were others in the president's four pillars of immigration. He pushed too hard on those things. Bad idea. was a judge enjoined Trump from rescinding DACA. And Democrats thought, well, hey, DACA people are not going to be deported. Trump can't rescind it. This judge stopped him. So we've gotten what we want from the courts. For free. And we don't have to give them for free. And we don't have to give the president any money.

So that was a lost chance. And at other times, also, Republicans, and by this, I mean, Paul Ryan, who didn't really want to do this wall, just told him that it would be better to do it later. And then when it came around in September of this year, excuse me, September of 18, right before the elections, they said, oh, you shouldn't do it right before an election. Might hurt our chances. We might lose if you do that. So we didn't. And then they lost. And then, you shouldn't do it right before an election. It might hurt our chances. We might lose if you do that. So we didn't, and then they lost. And then, you know, it was crazy to try to do it in a transition, and now he's got a Democratic House.

So mistakes all around, certainly including the presidents. Now, Byron, one more question for me. I know James wants to get back in here. I can't – I don't know whether it's because polls are being conducted. This is the suspicious side of me and the press just doesn't like the results they're getting. I am not finding clear answers to the simple question, which side is the public on? Trump, there should at least have been, you'd expect some kind of bump in his numbers after that speech the other evening. So where do things actually stand? Well, I haven't seen any good polling on the speech. And why is that? Isn't that unusual?

Well, it could be some of the news outlets don't really want to know. Okay. I mean, That's possible. Also, I think that I haven't seen a lot of good polling on a number of issues here. I took a lot of grief on Twitter a couple of days ago

because I had seen a number of polls on, quote, the wall that were really misleading. I mean, there was one from CNN a month or so ago. It was just flat wrong. It said, do you support building a wall along the entire border? Well, Trump said many times during the campaign, and Trump himself said many times in the campaign, you don't need to build a wall along the entire border. He said about half the border, about a thousand miles. And so that question is just factually wrong. And then we've seen a lot of questions that use the word wall all the time.

So I was wondering, some of these poll questions have been either factually wrong or they've been Trump unfriendly. Yes. I thought, well, has anybody just tried a Trump-friendly wording? You know, like, do you support a border barrier to lower the number of illegal crossings into the United States? Something like that. We just don't see it. We just don't see it.

And many of my beloved Twitter followers were very angry about this, but it's something we don't really have good – unless the White House has done some proprietary polling, we don't know about something we don't really know. on the broadcast entertainment networks. And that would presumably be an audience, big audience, that is less political, less plugged in, and maybe less passionate than the people who are glued to the cable news networks. So it would be interesting to see their reaction, but so far I have not. Why were your Twitter followers mad at you? Because you'd exposed your xenophobia by stating that people don't have the right to come into the country at will?

No, no, no. I was so much in service of Trump that I was wanting to skew poll questions in his favor. And I thought, you know, if Trump's going to call it a barrier now, and we know the word wall has become very toxic in the political debate. I wondered, how does barrier poll? I was curious about it, and that was apparently a bad thing. All of these semantics, are there some arguments that you wish Trump was making? I mean, he got a lot of pats on the back for being compassionate or at least trying to fake compassion,

depending on what side you're coming from, about talking about the tragedy at the border. But, I mean, there are elements here. There are actual elements of law here. There are elements of who gets to come into the country or what it means to be a citizen, all these things. There's cases to be made that says we are not required to let in anybody who wishes to come into the country. Well, look, the president just makes the arguments his way, and that's just all there is to it. And, you know, if he worked for him and said, you know, Mr. President, why don't you say it this way, he would say, have you been elected president? Right. And all presidents say that.

I mean, you know, they always look at their age and see a bunch of people who haven't been elected president of the United States and figure that, you know, he's smarter than they are. Byron, last question. You've got a podcast, we understand. And Devin Nunes was your first guest. Can you give us some previews, some highlights on how much fun it was and how much fun you're going to have being part of the Ricochet family?

Yes. You know, we thought a very, very long time, really dug, dug deep, and came up with the name The Byron York Show. So it's going to start soon on Ricochet. And so the question was, who's going to be the first guest? And I thought, well, you know, one person who's featured in stories that when I write them get an enormous amount of reader interest is Devin Nunes, who used to be the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, is now the ranking member. And I actually opened up the podcast by saying, you know, a week ago, you had subpoena power. And now he doesn't.

So anyway, we had a good talk. And basically, we went through a lot of stuff. I mean, there's tidbits. Like, do you know when the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee first learned what was in the Trump dossier? I'll tell you when. When he read it on buzzfeed uh so we had uh you know we have he lets out things like that which is which are great uh and then we also talk about just his

growing skepticism you know back in 2015 and 2016 we start hearing that russians are doing something with the election then we kind of hear that the U.S. government is doing something. And at some point, he becomes, he's always been a big Russia hawk, so he knew the Russians were up to no good, didn't have any illusions about that. But he began to become suspicious about what the U.S. government was doing, our intelligence agencies, law enforcement agencies. So we kind of go through when that happened and what led him to do that, because he was getting all these super-duper top-secret briefings as a member of the Gang of Eight. So really fascinating discussion, which I hope people will listen to.

It'll be great. And let me tell you, Byron, that when Bernie Sanders declares a military coup and sniper fighters echoing through the streets of D.C., we will want to talk to you, because I always feel calmer about everything going on there after we've spoken to you for a while. Boy, I'm glad I'm fixing up the basement in that case. We'll be by. Cover the window and head downstairs. That's right. We'll be by to stay with you.

And I have a peanut allergy, so please be, you know, stalk accordingly. Thanks, Byron. Do you have any dietary restrictions? All right. Thanks a lot, guys. Byron, take care, man please stalk accordingly. Thanks, Byron. Do you have any dietary restrictions? All right. Thanks a lot, guys. Byron, take care, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. That'll be a great show. And Peter, don't you feel the same way? There's just something

ruminative and contemplative about the way that Byron talks about matters. I've said it before, but to me, the fundamental characteristic of Byron York is he is a southern gentleman. You've got to know that he grew up in Alabama in order to understand Byron. He just doesn't get rattled, and he wants the facts. The discussion about Tucker's piece, one of the points that I think E.J. Hill made,

E.J., of course, the great Photoshop artist who helps with these podcasts, was talking about that the South is different now than it was in as much as mobility is not what it could be, right? Correct. Correct. We say that people should pick up and go to a job. I mean, North Dakota, come up here, you've got truck driving jobs, you've got agriculture, you've got all kinds of things, but people can't because they're tied to, they have to take care of their folks.

They have a mortgage that's underwater because they pay too much during the boom etc etc etc and you know that's true but as far as the mortgage goes you know if if you have one and you got a family who's depending on your income then maybe you need to protect the ones that you love with insurance right because life insurance can help keep that mortgage paid should you be indisposed, shall we say. Life insurance can pay off a mortgage or help send the kids to college. It's peace of mind. And if you think you can't afford it, well, chances are a select quote can help you get it for less than a dollar a day.

Select quote, comparison shops to up to 10 highly rated companies, including Prudential, Banner Life, Mutual of Omaha, and others, to help you find the company with the best rates. For example, select quote could find a 35-year-old man with a $500,000 policy for under $19 a month, or a 37-year-old female, a $750,000 policy for under $22 a month. That's less than a dollar a day. That's a cup of coffee costs you more than that. SelectQuote's breakthrough technology allows them to quickly match you with the best insurance company to find your best policy. Plus, quotes are free. There you go. Now, SelectQuote, they save you time. They save you money.

You can get your free quote at SelectQuote.com slash ricochet today. That's SelectQuote.com slash ricochet for your free quote. Don't put off protecting your family another day. Selectquote.com slash ricochet. Get full details on the example policy at selectquote.com slash commercials. Your premium could vary depending on your health, issuing company, and other factors. Not available in all states. And our thanks to Selectquote for sponsoring this, the Ricochet Podcast.

Welcome back to the podcast. all states and our thanks to select quote for sponsoring this the ricochet podcast welcome back to the podcast mickey kouse if you look up iconoclast in the dictionary there's something about a religious sect in byzantium that smashed the pictures but also maybe something about mickey because he's iconoclastic and he's a commentator and the most unusual democrat that we know we love him welcome back um we've been following you of course on twitter at kouse mickey um you like the wall but uh we're talking about in york about you know, actually a lot of the contraband and the illegals don't come through the wall. Make the case why. Pretend you're talking to the staunchest open-border Democrat and tell them why we need the wall.

Well, if you're an open-border Democrat, you don't want a wall because a wall would stop the flow of unlawful immigrants into the United States. So you're opposed to that. So the problem with the wall for open borders Democrats is that it will work. It's worked where it's been tried in San Diego and Yuma. People avoid it and go to Arizona, which is where they're coming in, which is very dangerous. People die in and go to Arizona, which is where they're coming in, which is very dangerous. People die in the desert there. So a wall would also be humanitarian by stopping people from making that risky journey.

It also works in Israel. It's worked in Hungary. It works basically everywhere it's been tried. And walls are proliferating around the world for that reason. You know, Trump is trying to establish a tone of crisis, and there is a humanitarian crisis, as many on the left have pointed out. The conditions that people claiming asylum find themselves in are really horrible,

and we should improve it, and his package includes $800 million to improve it. Is there a crisis in terms of just people coming to the United States to work crossing the border? Not an acute crisis. It's been going on for years, and the flow is lower than it was at its peak in 2000. But it's an ongoing chronic problem that we would like to get a handle on and get a handle on before, say, the Mexican economy implodes and people start streaming across. If you look at Trump's package, as Byron York says, it's a perfectly reasonable package of more border personnel, humanitarian aid, a few more miles of fencing

that you could easily see Obama or Clinton proposing. And the only reason it's become so controversial and cathected is because, you know, Trump's making a big deal of it and that Trump's base really cares about it, and it has a few miles of his wall, which is, you know, just supplements the miles of wall that are already there. It's a reasonable thing to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Will the fence stop drugs? Not so much, But he has other proposals for beefing up the detection possibilities of the ports of there seems to be this idea now that everybody who comes here is – well, AOC said herself that you're a xenophobe and you're a cold hearted stone sold miser. If you don't, do you think the debate is going to go more in the direction of of of sort of that that that compassion, which inevitably means the end of sovereignty? If you take it to its logical conclusion, you know, I think AOC has a point, which is, you know, immigrants who come to America,

you know, because their conditions are terrible in their countries and America is a better place, it's a perfectly honorable decision to make. The problem is we can't take everybody, and so we have set rules, and, you know, we have to enforce the rules. That's number one. Number two is our economy has changed, and unskilled workers are having a very tough go of it. And we don't need hundreds of thousands and millions of more unskilled workers to drive down wages. So we have to be a little tough in that regard, too. So there's nothing wrong with the vast bulk of the immigrants.

I think the migrants, I think, you know, an acknowledgement of that would be useful. But I don't think the American people say, OK, well, you know, we let in every good person on the planet. There are a lot of good people on the planet. That doesn't mean they all have a right to come here. So I think that I think the debate is going to go a little more toward the center as time goes on. And even as the shutdown drags on, I think the Pelosi-Schumer position, which is this package, which is perfectly reasonable and would have been approved under Obama and Clinton, is somehow crazy and immoral. I think that's going to look a little ridiculous.

That's why I think the media and the Democrats want to end this now. They want to panic people and panic Trump into capitulating now, whereas I think the longer it drags on, it actually works in Trump's favor. Mickey, Peter here. I want to back up just a step or two. You just gave a defense of the wall that would have been to the right of our friend Rob Long, I think. I don't believe I'm wronging Rob in saying that. And yet, when you and I first met again through Rob Long, oh goodness, I don't know, well over a decade, we'd spent a long time now, Mickey, you were a few positions. But fundamentally, when you think of Mickey Kaus, you think of someone who is humane, thoughtful, and in the truest sense, liberal. Now, how is it that that Mickey Kaus is speaking in defense of a wall? Or if I'll give you two

versions of the same question, how is it that AOC, who would think of herself as humane and thoughtful and liberal, can be so dismissive? What would Mickey Cow say to AOC if we could put the two of you at a table together in Venice, California? Well, I think I'd say I'm still a liberal. Americans are hurting. Unskilled Americans are having trouble making a livable wage. The first thing we should do is preserve our egalitarian democracy by bringing those people back into the mainstream economically by boosting their wages. The simplest thing we can do, the fastest thing, is controlling the borders and controlling the inflow. Wages are starting to rise precisely because, in part, we've managed to control the influx of low-skilled labor.

That's a historic liberal position. It was Cesar Chavez's position for a long time. And then we can build a welfare state. It's a lot easier to build a welfare state if you don't invite the world to share in this welfare state and if you build it for Americans and legal immigrants first. So I'm still a

liberal on many work-tested programs, welfare state programs, and I'm for Medicare for all. I've given up on Obamacare. So I'm with AOC on that. So I think one could reach common ground. Is your position, is that position, I'm a welfare state Democrat, I'm a Medicare for all Democrat, and I am a for the wall Democrat because we need it to protect our own disadvantaged citizens. How well represented

is that in the House of Representatives of Nancy Pelosi? I don't think it's represented well at all. I mean, a few Democrats are breaking off from the Democratic consensus and saying, okay, I'm for, you know, border enforcement. There was one this morning from California. But, you know, it was the position that Bernie Sanders was trending towards until the political realities caught up with him. And he realized, no, I have to, you know, appeal to the Latino electorate and tow the party line. And, you know, this is this is where Democrats see the growth of their voters. That's the that's the problem here. Otherwise, otherwise, there would be many, many more people with this position. And I'm sure there are some, but there aren't that many.

Got it. James? No, I'm here. I'm just casting my mind back to the days when Bernie Sanders had a different position on these things. He did. He said open borders was a Koch brothers idea, which it is. So he – and then he opposed some of the immigration reforms of a decade ago because they would lower the wages of workers. He was right about that. Then he threw it all away. Yes, well, that's the thing about those old line Stalinists is that they have practice in the malleability of their ideas.

Well, we have an attorney general here in Minnesota who was wearing a T-shirt that said, I don't dream of borders. It was in Spanish. We can just assume he put it on to get along with the crowd. But I take that as word. I think what's worse than that, I think he basically said borders shouldn't exist. That's what the T-shirt said anyway. Yeah, something along those lines. I get the pith of his jest.

I can't believe Rob Long takes that position. No, no, no. He doesn't take that position. I just think anything that Trump is for makes Rob queasy. But I'd better stop because I may be misrepresenting Rob. We'll give Rob a chance to answer back. It's a little bit like the buildup to the Iraq war. You go in. Bush can't really be trying to pull this off, can he?

He's trying to just wrench the whole country with a sense of crisis into invading this other country. And Trump, on a much less portentous level, is trying to wrench the whole country to get his few miles of wall. And you say, well, this is crazy. And I think that's probably Rob's reaction. But on the other hand, you know, it's crazy, but it's a crazy means to attain a perfectly reasonable goal. It is. I mean, and he staked it all rhetorically, symbolically on the wall when there's much more to enforcement than that. And, you know, we go back and forth and say we wish he was making different cases and better cases,

but he's the one we got making the case so the wall is is is more important than than is i think than is fashionably considered true because it has the symbolic value is valuable because many people in mexico including people who don't come here the vast majority the a slim majority of voters in Mexico think the United States has no right to enforce that border. In part, it's because they think we stole their land, which we may have done. In part, it's because many people think there was the treaty that settled that war gave Mexicans a right to cross the border. And in part, it's because historically Mexicans were crossing the border and going back to Mexico, and we didn't think anything of it. So the wall has a symbolic value of telling Mexico at least, if not Central America, no, there really is a border here.

Whatever you think is wrong, we're enforcing it, so that's the new state of affairs. That might have a powerful impact. When we did welfare reform in 1996, all the things we thought would work, some of them didn't work. But what really worked was the signal that was sent to people that you have to work now. And the welfare rolls dropped by more than half. So the signal that the wall would send to Central America and Mexico may be more important than any of these other things we're talking about. Now, last question, Mickey, I could ask you, who do you think Kamala Harris's vice presidential choice will be? But I just ask you, who do you think is going to be the D pick in 2020?

I don't know. I think Cory Booker is very talented and Sherrod Brown would be the fatal, you know, death star for Republicans because he could steal the white working class voters in the Midwest if he played his cards right. Oh, Cory Booker. Cory Booker versus Trump would be T-Bone versus Barron. That's great. That's just great.

Two guys with alternative personalities. I like Cory Booker because he took a stand against the teachers unions. Now, that's long in the past. Back when he was mayor of Newark. Was it Newark it new yeah right but that's where he cut his teeth and he was very very sort of almost courageous in doing that so i forgive him a lot even spartacus even forgetting spartacus i think he will have nea tattooed on the back of his neck if not his forehead if he runs because that that that pretty you know it's uh he'll be apologizing for that the way that biden would be apologizing for the iraq war he's shown he wants to do what is necessary

but with rosario dawson as his first lady he may go far well interesting that benno isn't in that mix i would have thought that after his instagrammable uh um you know live tooth cleaning that a whole new generation of uh voters would would clutch his Kennedy-like teeth to their bosom, but maybe not. Well, we'll talk about that when the time comes. Gavin Newsom, Nicky? He's always seemed like a flake and a lightweight. Not a flake. I guess a douche would be the exact term.

Term of art. He's gotten much better. His budget, the budget he proposed has a whole bunch of liberal spending but doesn't seem to break the bank. So it's possible that he will be much better than feared, but he's nowhere ready to to assume the presidency. So call me. Call us back in four years. I'm Gavin Newsom. Yeah. And the name sounds like somebody who was in a popular sitcom from 1978 to 82. So I think I think he was. Yeah. Maggie, thanks. Great. We'll talk to you down the road.

OK, thank you. Thank you. He's you know, how many, Peter? What do we have? Thirty seven people are going to be running for the presidential pick? I'm thinking 37, 38. Here we go with this again. You're going to have to brush up on all the particulars so you know what you're talking about. Hey, and speaking of brushing, breathtaking. Yeah, no.

Breathtaking. Well, actually, if my breath were to be took, it would be a very sweet and minty breath because one of the things about Quip, the toothbrush that everybody's telling you about and you probably have thought, I wonder if it's really that good. One of the things that nobody mentions is that Quip comes with this really good toothpaste, and you use just a little pea-sized amount of it so that you don't have to spend a lot of money on toothpaste and run to the store. I'm never out because by the time my next quip refill kit comes there's more toothpaste in it what am i talking about i'm talking about quip and if you made a new year's resolution to be a little bit better this year to get your insurance in shape and to get calmer and sleep better and all of that stuff you probably aren't thinking and i resolve to floss more because you've said that year after year after year and you don't the The great Jeff Foxworthy joke when he goes to the dentist and the dentist says, when

was the last time you flossed? And Jeff said, when you did it. That's a lot of people. But sometimes you brush your teeth and you think, is there any other way to do this? It's boring all my life. Yes, there is. Quit. Here's what it is.

It's an electric toothbrush and it helps you stick to good habits like brushing, which you need to do. Some of us brush too hard. We don't brush long enough. Quip tells you how to brush, when to brush, when to switch sides. Simple. You get these sensitive little sonic vibrations. It effectively, gently cleans your sensitive gums because you don't want to scrape and bleed and all the rest of it. It's got a built-in two-minute timer.

Every 30 seconds, it pulses. It says, time to switch quadrants. Up to 90% of us don't brush for a full two minutes or even clean evenly, but the Quip, it's just programmed into it and you're used to doing it. And next thing you know, you brush more than everybody else. It's got a multi-use cover also. Works as a stand. It'll mount to your mirror, slide over the bristles. If you want to go somewhere, you just take it off the mirror, pop it in your bag, and you've got a nice little hygienic cover for your quip. Now, if you're thinking, oh, you know what? I should replace my toothbrush. Why bother with quip? Well, brush heads are automatically delivered on a dentist-recommended schedule, so you're not looking at something that's splayed all out like a brush that somebody's been using

to shine their shoes for a year and a half. No. Every three months, the brush comes. Five dollars. Five dollars. It's a friendly reminder when it's time for a refresh and to stay committed to your oral health. Seventy-five percent of us use old, worn-out bristles, and those are ineffective. Twenty-five thousand dental professionals, by the way, say that this is the best thing, that those are the people who back the quip. The American Dental Association has backed the quip. And they've got thousands of verified five-star reviews. I love it. And all I have to say is what I say every time I do this commercial. When I go to the dentist and he used to hand me that little toothbrush as they do the free one, here's the new fresh one.

He doesn't bother to give me a new toothbrush because he knows I use a quip. And there's no point in trying to get a quip user to try anything else. $25 is where it starts. If you go to getquip.com slash ricochet right now, you can get your first refill pack for free. That's your first refill pack free at getquip.com slash ricochet. And our thanks to Quip for sponsoring this, the Ricochet Podcast. Yes, Peter?

I hear you about to say something. No, no, no. Some toothbrushing lore that you want to share with the rest of the audience. No, no, no, no, no, I hear you about to say something like you know, some toothbrushing lore that you want to share with the rest. No, no, no, no, no, not at all. I was just I did have to brush my teeth before doing this show because I went to the dentist this very morning. And they took an impression of my teeth, which leaves your mouth filled with plaster, actually. But that is even more boring than talking about the holidays. So enough of that nonsense. Perfectly true.

Well, we can probably vault to the top of the charts at iTunes if we promise people that there will be dental stories from Peter Robinson every single time. They took an impression of your teeth. Was it a rich little style or was it up? It was down. They were trying to give you a crown or do what? I used to hate the dentist, but now I absolutely enjoy it. I mean, I used to have to have nitrous oxide gas to make the appointment, as the old joke goes. It's a good old joke, actually.

Well, it's just those things about the sharp things in your mouth. I remember once I went to get my eyes checked, and for some reason, the optometrist had a sharp stick, a very pointy sharp stick in his pocket. I thought that is literally a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. There it is. Why do you have that in your pocket? Because if you lean over, it's entirely possible you'll just lance me with that thing. The life of James Lilacs. It's fraught with all sorts of self-inflicted miseries.

Well, before we go, is there anything you're looking forward to this week politically, culturally, otherwise, that you can set up a prediction we will conveniently ignore next week? A prediction, a prediction, a prediction. Yes, my prediction is that this time next week the government will still be partially shut down and we still won't have the $5.7 billion for Trump's wall from the Democrats. But that, by this time two weeks from now, the president will have found that money in the federal budget and figured out legal loopholes so that he can do it – so that he can spend the money without Democratic support. I think that's the way this is going to come out. Will he have to declare a state of emergency? No, no, no. He won't – no, no, no. He won't. No, no, no.

His own people. No. Mitch, because there are too many people who would say don't do that. The precedent for – if you declare a state of emergency over the wall, then President Kamala Harris gets to declare a state of emergency over climate change. Right. This is do not do that. Do not do that. But there are those, Peter, who are going to say, look, they're going to do this anyway.

There's this sort of appetite for preemptive constitutional shredding that I don't exactly understand. I mean I would rather lose a few issues and keep the constitution intact than win absolutely everything and at the end of the day have no structure or format to the government whatsoever but simply back and forth buffeting tennis match ping pong style you know changes of government that undoes what the previous one did i mean trump's done undone a lot of what obama did that's that's great that was we wanted but it's been by legal measures um so yeah the constitution we love it you don't we don't we still don't we don't we still we still do the democrats well the new the AOC – they've already introduced legislation to eliminate the Electoral College. They, the new Republican – I beg your pardon, the new Democratic majority in the House of Representatives. Legislation has been introduced to eliminate the Electoral College, which is of course a fundamental part of the Constitution. And there's a lot of talk about coming up with some new way of apportioning the senate that is to say overturning that part of the constitution as well to make to make the

senate proportional because it's absolutely absurd that people in north dakota should have the same voice rated as californians right um as if as if there wasn't another house that they could point to to say where they get their way oh yeah i know that we were told that donald trump was going to be the greatest threat to the constitution but the first amendment they don't like that second amendment they don't like that uh tenth amendment for god's sakes oh so but i just hate to see our side saying in a similar fashion that they want extra or dodgy quasi-constitutional measures to to get the good things i'm with you completely completely. I'm with you completely. Right. But that'll get you a cruise ship.

Which means we should probably end the show because the agreement is rather dull, isn't it? Well, that'll get you a cruise ship emoji and a rhino talk. But, you know, when it comes to those things, who better than Rob? I don't know why Rob should get the cruise ship emoji. I should get the cruise ship emoji because I do it far more often. That's the new Beltway cocktail party thing. I think Rob is more of a feet swanning about East coast. So he should get the cocktail party.

So I get the, the cruise ship emoji. What do you get Peter? What's the sign emoji that you're going to have to betray your lack of faith to the conservatism and its part in its, how does that happen? It gets given to you, doesn't it?

On Twitter or some such, it gets bestowed by those who, who find it. It is deathless. It'll be the sweater emoji, the sweater draped over the shoulders emoji. That's exactly what I thought, a pink sweater draped over the shoulders with a reptile showing. There we go. We started with the reptiles of Minnesota. We end with the reptiles of California.

It's a full circle. Thanks for listening, everybody. And remember, quip.com, selectip.com select quote.com calm.com use that coupon code ricochet make your life better easier more calm and peace of mind and you'll support us as well and hey would it kill you to go to itunes and leave a review would it just kill you because you could and that would help others to discover us which keeps us going and you know what you didn't get you didn't't get the member pitch. So you're off the hook this week completely. No, I'm just kidding. Go sign up. I'm going to die without you. And then you'll be miserable and will be miserable. Looking forward to

a happy week. Looking forward to a happy podcast next week. Peter, we'll see you then. Next week, James. Today is going to be the day that they're're gonna throw it back to you. By now you should have somehow realized what you gotta do. I don't believe that anybody feels the way I do about you now. Backbeat, the word is on the street That the fire in your heart is out I'm sure you've heard it all before But you never really had a doubt I don't believe that anybody

Feels the way I do about you now And all the roads we have to walk are winding And all the lights that lead us there are blinding There are many things that I would like to say to you But I don't know how Because maybe know how because maybe you're gonna be the one that saves me and after all

you're my Wonderwall Ricochet Join the conversation Today was gonna be the day But they'll never throw it back to you By now you should have somehow realized What you're not to do I don't believe that anybody Feels the way I do about you now. And all the roads that lead you there were winding.

And all the lights that light the way are blinding. There are many things that I would like to say to you But I don't know how I said maybe You're gonna be the one that saves me And after all You're gonna be the one that saves me. And after all, you're my wonderwall.

I said maybe you're gonna be the one that saves me.