The Ricochet Podcast - No Deal Is A Good Deal

Episode Date: July 13, 2018

This week, we travel across the pond to talk with our good mate James Delingpole to get his very hot take on Trump’s visit, What May or May not happen to the current Prime Minister, and get his impression of that so called Baby Trump Blimp. Also, we’ve got a new SCOTUS nominee and his age is a trigger warning for one of our hosts, that fantastic Tweet storm by Ricochet alum Claire Berlinski... Source

We have special news for you. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. Are you going to send me or anybody that I know to a camp? We have people that are stupid. No president has ever consulted more widely. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. It's the Ricochet Podcast with Rob Long and Peter Robinson. I'm James Lylex, and today we talk to James Dellingpole.

I was just imitating his British broadband. Let's have ourselves a podcast. Welcome, everybody. Bye-bye. And we're brought to you by Boll & Branch. The right sheets can take your sleep and your style to the next level. And with Boll & Branch, that upgrade has never been more affordable. Find out by going to BollAndBranch.com. That's spelled B-O-L-L-AndBranch.com. And use the promo code RICOSHET to get $50 off your first set of sheets, plus free shipping in the U.S. And we're brought to you by Eero. Are you tired of paying for, quote, high-speed, end quote, Internet, only to be frustrated by weak Wi-Fi everywhere in your house?

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Would be Rob. We have the vision now of Peter as Frankenstein with a sweater tied in a knot. Peter would be more like Frau Brücker, I think. Just a young Frankenstein with a sweater tied in a knot. Peter would be more like Frau Brooker, I think. Just a young Frankenstein motif.

I mean, yeah, we did sort of like Frankenstein monster this thing, and I'm really pleased we did. And I always make a pitch for members, and I have two things I want to say. The first thing I want to say is – three things, really. The first thing I'm going to say is I suck at it, so we're outsourcing it. I'm outsourcing it to our director of technical operations, which is a fancy term for CTO. He'd be the CTO, Max Ledoux. He writes, here at Ricochet.com, we've always tried to fill a need that we saw on the right for something, news, analysis, intellectual discussion, along the lines of what NPR does for the left. Thank you. federal money, no federal cash into Ricochet, that's for sure. And of course, we wouldn't take any even if they offered it. Probably depends on how the payroll situation looks. But we do,

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Become a sponsoring member of Ricochet at the podcast listener level for only $2.50 a month at Ricochet.com slash join, and we thank you, and I thank Max. Max and I – last time he was on the podcast, we went at it because Max is a very, very, very staunch Trump supporter and I, as everybody knows, am not. And I think that one of the things that I think Ricochet does really well is it allows people like me and Max to not only coexist but to sort of learn from each other and support each other and he is a huge, huge part of our success here at Ricochet even though he's

a Trump head. How boring would you say to me? Yeah, if we all agreed, terrible. Precisely. Hey, Peter, welcome, and I have a question for you. It's going to take something of a lineup, of a wind-up. Max had mentioned NPR, and I was listening to

NPR the other day. They have a show called 1A. And the host was saying, we had so much fun last week with our Ask a Muslim section. We're going to have a show called 1A. And the host was saying, we had so much fun last week with our Ask a Muslim section, we're going to have a new one next week, and it's going to be called Ask a Drag Queen. And I thought... Unbelievable.

I thought, I can't wait for Ask a Muslim about a drag queen because that would be a place that I don't think they would want necessarily to go. But the unexamined biases of the station, of all media for that matter, are of endless fascination to us. James Fallows has written a book where he and his wife apparently went out into America to explore America and touch Indians and all the rest of this stuff.

And I was listening to him talk about it on the air with a three-panel person, all of whom had to do something with a foundation. He didn't get a gas station owner and a farmer and a preacher. They got somebody from various foundations. And Fallows said, and I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt a little bit until I read the book. And I still hate this sort of going out into the flyover anthropology session stuff. But he said that what he found fascinating was that even though in, say, Kansas, the people may have voted Republican, when you get down to the granular level, their votes are much more inclusive. And I thought, you gave the game away again, because you posit those as opposites.

You tell everybody what you're thinking. So I'm applying this now to Europe and the fact that a whole bunch of people are watching Donald Trump walk into this old alliance. And we all read Claire Berlinski's wonderful thread on how the US created the post-war era and how important it is. And a lot of people- We should link to that too, by the way. If you haven't read it, we should link to it. It's really, really brilliant. A lot of people simply don't care if Donald Trump doesn't get along with the European elite because a lot of people feel that we have simply been disrespected, taken for granted, and looked down upon by these people for 30, 40 years. And if Trump offends them, they don't care. So my question to you after all of that is incorporating all of these biases. Do you trust Donald Trump to be the person who carefully and skillfully renegotiates the situation in Europe

to our benefit and to the benefit of the strength of Europe? I don't trust Donald Trump to be the person who carefully and skillfully does anything. That's just not the way he operates. But as to what's going on in Europe and Trump's approach right now, I refer you to the late, and it's an important piece of my argument here after your setup that he is late, Irving Kristol, Bill Kristol's father. I was poking around looking at this material a couple of weeks ago. As I think I mentioned on our last podcast, I was then headed to Denmark for a conference at which I listened to a lot of Europeans. So Irving Kristol wrote as long ago as the mid-1980s that it was time to look at NATO again,

that it was one thing for the United States to take care of the defense of Western Europe when Western Europe was still recovering from the Second World War and poorer than we were, cities to rebuild, economies to rebuild and so forth. But by the mid-1980s, Western Europe had pulled even with us economically, almost even with us economically. They had a huge population and Irving Kristol's point was not – it's one thing to be disrespected, the usual free rider problem. Other people won't pay for their defense if we provide it for them.

That's all right if it's in our own self-interest. But what was happening was that we were creating a mentality of dependency in Europe, and this was affecting the way the Europeans themselves conducted themselves. It was – I think the term that Crystal used was that it was sapping political vitality from what was then Western Europe. Of course, the Cold War was still taking place. And you know what? I believe there's an argument there. I believe it is in our interest for Europeans. To me, this was – what was it? Five, six years ago, Europe celebrated the 50th anniversary of the founding of the European Union. And I read with a kind of horror.

For six months, this was going on. It's a long celebration essay after essay and speech after speech by europeans the argument of every single one of which was we europeans have created a new way of living together we have created an alliance we a diplomacy net we have no and nobody mentioned who's this we yeah exactly nobody mentioned in their Who's this we? Exactly. Nobody mentioned it in their own mind. In other words, our defending them and asking so little of them in return has permitted an entire class of leadership in Europe to grow up firmly believing in what is clearly delusional. Final point, Germany. Donald Trump gave it to Angela Merkel.

Germany has spent well under 2% of GDP on defense for years and years and years. I don't have the – Don't you love it that we're at a point where, damn it, Germany is not spending enough on their military? Come on. To be fair, many of those decades followed a period where Germany spent 100% of its GDP. Okay. However, and even so, if you – what was the – the Germans themselves had – who mentioned this? Brett Stevens mentioned this in an article in the New York Times. I

double checked it because I wanted to mention it to the Europeans over in Denmark. Again, I'll get the figures a little bit wrong, but Germany today has an air force that includes something like 25 of a very sophisticated bomber. How many of those are combat ready? Four or five. Germany today possesses five or six, it's either five or six submarines. How many is seaworthy? Zero. Again, the tanks, they have something, several hundred tanks. How many of them are combat ready? Something like 10 or 12% of their total force of tanks. In other words, even the military spending, even the money that they're spending on the military, they're spending on – entirely on – it's a kind of soft welfare program. It's a way of employing young people, particularly young men.

It is simply not a combat-ready force. Yes, yes, yes. They sent a small group to fight with us in Afghanistan, commendable, important, and so forth. But the argument that this is no longer in our interest to permit Europeans to behave delusionally is a pretty good one. Donald Trump will not address it skillfully or carefully to use James's words, but he is addressing it. And, you know, I think more good than ill is likely

to come of it. There. Discuss. Yeah, I suspect I agree. I think that the European leadership, political leadership is a lot like the political science faculty at Harvard with tenure. With tenure comes this freedom. Sorry? I'm agreeing completely. With tenure comes the freedom to live in the traditional. Yeah, you can have all sorts of weird theories and you can hate the object of the source of the funding that gave you the tenure. So you can be a tenured professor at Harvard or Yale and despise the corporate capitalist structure that allows the endowment to grow to such an extent that it can offer you tenure and never really have to confront that.

I would say this though. I mean I have a sort of a complicated theory about Trump. It's that Trump's great success in business has been as a debtor, right? I mean it's the old story, right? If you owe the bank $100,000, it's your problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, it's their problem. And his level of negotiations is always on a one-to-one basis, me, debtor versus creditor. And his point – and this is – I'm not criticizing him.

This is how people in real estate, all people in real estate kind of do it. At a certain point, he throws up his hands and says, I know I owe you all this money, but I don't have it. What are you going to do? Let's figure out a way. And that is not specific to Donald Trump. He does it very skillfully. And at a certain point in his career, he stopped doing that mostly because he ran out of creditors. But he didn't run out of customers and he burnished his brand and he licensed his brand.

And that's where the second act of his career after the bankruptcies really took off. And that is fine because there are always Chinese people and people in the Middle East and Russians and people who want – who believe the Trump brand is very popular. There are people here who love the Trump brand. There are also people here who find it toxic. But he's made a lot of money that way. But in international affairs, you can go to Europe and give it to them on NATO, which is what he did. I don't disagree with his essential point, although I have to say that the Germans are also giving it to Angela Merkel. The German people are. She's backed down on a lot of her sort of pro-refugee sort of humanitarian

stuff. But you're not negotiating just about NATO when you go and negotiate with those leaders. You're also going to go because you're there, and it's going to be enmeshed in a current trade dispute we have with China where we need the Europeans to support us and we need to use them as a unified block against Chinese theft of intellectual property and copyright infringement and theft of business practices and all sorts of things that they are doing. This is the three-dimensional chess that Trump isn't playing because he – again, not a knock at him, but it's just nothing he has any experience with or success in. And luckily there are people around him who are helping him see the bigger picture. But I think – I'm not entirely hopeful that this is the way to do it, although I do believe it needs to be done. Yeah. I mean you would only call on Donald Trump when furniture needs to be broken. This guy is not going to handle anything more subtle than that.

And so we'll talk to James Dellingpole in a moment about whether Trump actually helped or hurt the Brexit cause in the last 48 hours by giving an interview to the son that turns out to. We'll get to that in a moment. But there he is breaking furniture and I think he may actually have – he may have damaged his own car. So I agree with you entirely. I just make the point that pulling ourselves together on China, when I say ourselves, I mean the West. That is in their interest as well as in our interest and I'll just repeat it one more

time. Trump has this intuition that it's better for everybody in the long run, including us, if Europeans behave with a certain self-respect and if the people who lead those countries are in touch with fundamental reality, which includes that the world is a dangerous place and they need to defend themselves, not rely entirely and always on us. Yeah. Unfortunately, the predicates of their philosophy say that the world is a dangerous place because of the United States and its provocation. Yes. Yes. It's fascinating to say, to watch them complain about Donald Trump as though if we had reincarnated somebody with

Ronald Reagan's politics and sunny style and sent him over there, they wouldn't be marching in the street with Hitler mustaches painted on his picture anyway. Anybody that we have is going to be portrayed as an idiot, a buffoon, a cowboy, a jerk, a dangerous man. We finally send them something like that, and they're appalled that we're not appalled as they are. Sorry, we've been hearing

this from you forever, and we're a little bit tired of the Continental snooty looking down upon us for our myriad failings. You know what? Tell you what. When was the last time you guys over there in Europe wrote anything of consequence philosophically that was interesting to the world that wasn't some gibberish and hash that deconstructed knowledge

and turned upside down 500 years of learning? When was the last time you came up with a piece of art and put it on a pedestal somewhere that wasn't an affront to everything that sits in your galleries? Sorry. Get back to me when you've gotten back in touch with Western civilization. James, I wish you could write all of this down in some great nonfiction book, but the trouble is I wouldn't have time to read it. Well, that's the thing. I worry that I don't have time to read, and I have a hard time sleeping at night because of it.

Don't you, Rob? Don't you have a hard time sleeping at night when you think of all the things you'd like to read? I do. I do? And what do you do about that, though? What does one do? I hate myself. Well, sometimes you just keep tossing and turning because your sleep is not at the right level.

And so you want to go outside and read something, but you can't because your Wi-Fi doesn't go to the backyard, and there you're stuck. I tell you, Rob, what do you do? Well, now you've got me confused, James, because I thought you were going to do a Blinkist spot. And now you're switching them around. Is this fun? That's not fair. This is the moment. That is not fair.

This is where I feel like Muhammad Ali just dancing, just dancing, you know, because the guy doesn't know where I'm going to hit. He's absolutely right about Blinkist, though. Blinkist is not sheets. It's not a wireless thing. It's an app. Now, there are lots of apps out there, but Blinkist is the only app that takes thousands of bestselling nonfiction books and distills them down to the most impactful elements. So you can read them or listen to them in under 15 minutes, under 15, all on your phone. Listen, are you interested in Jordan Peterson?

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made-for-mobile format. Five million people are already using Blinkist to expand their minds 15 minutes at a time. So you can get started today with this offer, just for you, just for Ricochet listeners. Now, go to Blinkist.com slash Ricochet to start your free trial or get three months off your yearly plan when you join right now. That's Blinkist, B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T, Blinkist.com slash Ricochet to start your free trial or Blinkist.com slash Ricochet. What fun. Our thanks to Blinkist, of course, for sponsoring this, the Ricochet podcast. You know, Rob, we were talking during the break that most people don't know happened, but it did. There was a moment where we had to

step aside for technical difficulties because Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom, has decided to ruin Skype with a new iteration. Next week it'll be fixed and they'll ruin it in a completely different way. But you were saying to me that I sounded pro-Trump. I was like, you were kind of getting

in the MAGA hat zone there, which I feel my – go ahead. But not just that. I mean anti-European, that sort of, you know them, highfalutin, book-learning, long-hair types. And I just wanted to say it's not that I'm anti-European. I love Europe. I just hate what the Europeans have done with it. And that sort of intellectual class of Brussels that seems to believe that they can just smear this paste of universal governance over the entire continent. Go on. But replace Brussels' European Union with university faculty. Replace it with The New York Times. Replace it with the New York Times.

Replace it with any of those things. And it's hard. I mean, it's like, you know, when you're trying to lose weight and someone is baking bread. And it's like, I love bread. The smell of bread, when they bring it to the table,

it's like, no, I can't because it's bad for me. But I still want it. And I still feel that. bread, when they bring it to the table, it's like, no, I can't because it's bad for me. And I but I still I want it. And I still feel that I feel that way about Trump. He's like freshly baked bread that I should not eat and enjoy. But every now and then I'm like, you know what? This is a John Pannett routine. If he weren't dead. Yes, yes.

So they brought Donald Trump to my table. Name A. I would like to share with you an email I got from a friend of mine who will go nameless. Somebody, a friend of mine, I met him on the street. He stopped me, and he's a huge fan here in New York City, and he listens to this podcast. He could be listening now, and I'm protecting his identity because he doesn't really want to be a – he's got a lot of professional reasons for not being public. But he sent me an email. It was very funny, and he's a member. By the way, he's a Margaret Thatcher member. So hey.

Wow. He's pulling you up. Yeah. But this is the irony of the Margaret Thatcher member. He was saying that a friend of his has a daughter at a fancy private school somewhere in the country, and she had to write a paper about a great woman. And she chose Margaret Thatcher. Good. And the teacher said she couldn't do that

because Margaret Thatcher wasn't a great woman. Right. And then he put in this very funny hashtag cray, meaning crazy. That is, in fact, when you hear that's like it's hard not to go reach for the big delicious fresh bread of donald j trump donald john trump because like there's there is a problem there and and in in as much as i guess i'm just tired of hearing people say that it's not a problem. I'm so much more comfortable with the anti-Trump crowd and the left and the progressive left if they at least admitted that there's a problem.

I mean I think on our side, I think for the Trump supporting side, there is a problem with racism. I really do. I think there's a problem with it. When they're marching in Charlottesville and he's not condemning it, I think that's a problem. I'll freely admit that. that are so incredibly partisan, so unwilling to see even a name like Margaret Thatcher as someone who did something really remarkable in her life. It certainly counts as one of the great women of the 20th century. And if you can't see that, then maybe – I don't know. I don't like this.

I don't like that bread. I can't eat that bread. I should not reach for that bread basket. But man. I think Peter would understand is that the problem isn't the bread. It's that he eats it with ketchup. Or maybe that he puts Russian dressing on it. I mean everything you've just said there, Rob, ignores everything about the Russians. And Margaret Thatcher was evil and killed people in coal mines and tried to take their health care away and put on a poll tax. So I don't know how you possibly can get out there and defend Margaret Thatcher. Right, Peter? I mean she's got to be expunged from history.

Yeah, you know, all I want to say is I really don't want to talk because I just want to listen to the two of you. This is just – I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying this. Yeah, don't get used to it. Now I've been thinking it for weeks now, but now I'm going to say it out loud. Just keep coming my way, baby. I'm just watching you boys. I know you're – Now that you've said that, I'm like – I'm going to send $100 to Evan whatever his name is. McMuffin.

McMuffin. Yeah. McMuffin, whatever his name is. McMuffin. McMuffin. Whatever his name is. I know. It's like – what's this? The sci-fi movie in the 1950s where the saucer is hovering over both of you and you're being lifted up in the ray and those – you're still struggling against it. You're still struggling. But any moment now, you're going to go limp and just enjoy it and say, take me. Well, no.

This is more like the remake of Body Snatchers when you're Leonard Nimoy and you're telling us to relax and enjoy it. Soon we'll have a life free of worry and want. Actually, what it is sometimes, it's frustrating on the part of those of us. I mean it's not that I was going to switch parties. I wasn't going to rationally without the other side hyping up the terror and the panic and the death constantly over everything that just makes me say, well, look, I'm on the right side of the ledger for a variety of reasons. If it's a choice between the craziness over here and the insanity over there, at least the craziness over here seems to be in favor of basically Western civilization in America, where you guys are some border-free, weird, internationalist thing where socialism is awesome. And no, I mean, when George F. Will says it's time for everyone on the Republican, every good conservative, to vote Democrats as much as possible. I look and I say, all right, what do I stand for?

Pro-Second Amendment, limitations on abortion, border control, regulatory state reined in, more freedom of the individual. What do those guys stand for? Open borders. Don't tell me otherwise, Keith Ellison, AG attorney candidate here in Minnesota is walking around with an open borders T-shirt. They want to take away your guns because, of course, they do. They want to take away my money because they get better ideas of what to do with it. So in order to punish Donald Trump and the existence of, I'm supposed to vote for the guys who believe in absolutely everything I stand against. And then Garden Pants Gnome Profit somehow comes out of this. Sorry.

And it's hard to believe that – it's hard to get exercised about how horrible – although I do – how horrible Donald Trump is when Mitt Romney was a terrible racist and George W. Bush was shredding the Constitution and Brett Kavanaugh is going to kill you and net neutrality is going to kill you. What they've discovered is that nobody screams louder or plays dirtier or has less sort of personal restraint than the president of the United States. And he is 100 percent a creation of that culture, not 100 percent creation of the George Will culture, but 100 percent creation of the MSNBC culture. And that seems like it's almost ironic. We are living inside a Tom Wolfe novel where crazy things happen that make total sense. And that is – and as long as they're Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, Yale classmate of mine by the way, as long as that's the case, I have a hard time walking around. I was thrilled about Kavanaugh until now. Listen, can he get your parking tickets fixed he can't do you know only on appeal well they're making fun of him because he has a name like brett and i think that uh planned parented was calling him a frat

boy and all the rest of it and so um with stinging attacks like those i'm not sure he's going to make it i think he'll probably get up there in confirmation hearings and break down in shame and say, Merrick Garland should have my seat and give it to him and he'll be beloved. Rob, first personal question for Rob. I just – I can't quite let this one go. Passage of time question. How does it feel to be as old as Supreme Court justices? So old. It's just horrible.

I got a bunch of texts. I was on Antigua for the past week, a week and a half almost. It was Monday and I was there. I was driving. I had no idea. I just got these texts with, do you know him? Did you know him? I was going to send these texts back. Like how would I know this guy? He was probably at Yale Law School when I was an undergraduate there maybe. But there's no way that we were at Yale together.

Or maybe he was a senior when I was a – no, my class. He's my age. I feel dead inside. You should just say that he was graduating from law school when you were entering the daycare program that they have there. Oh, God. It's all kind of a daycare program, by the way, James. If we are living in a Tom Wolfe novel, Rob, Tom Wolfe novels always regard a parallel subplot that intersects with the main one at some point. So you may actually be that. Going about your whole life,

you may be that Tom Wolfe parallel subplot that ends up in the penultimate chapter, reshaping our view of the world and everything else. So you better rest up for that. Before we get to our next guest, however, I would like to tell you that I exhausted every possible opportunity to fake Rob out with a spot, so

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pamphleteer lambasting the Whigs to something like an evil, hateful, Tory bleep. He's also, by his own rights, correct and right about everything. You can just ask him. And right now, rosy-fingered Don is appearing in London, where we assume that he is, and we thank him for joining us here on the Ricochet podcast.

James, how are you? Hey, I have actually – I'm not in London right now. I'm back in the country. But I did pay a visit to see the Trump protests in London and to see the blimp, the baby blimp that they put up as a kind of symbol of Britain's defiance of the evil Trump. And? A sight worth seeing? Well, have you seen This Is Spinal Tap? Yes. You know the Stonehenge scene? Yes. Where they think that they've got this thing in feet, and it turns out they've got it in inches

so they've got these kind of tiny stone hinges on the stage well it's a bit like that, everyone was expecting this enormous balloon soaring over the skies of London to symbolise London's contempt for Trump and actually it was really tiny it was like when a man says he's got

12 inches it was like you know a few millimetres they's got sort of 12 inches, it was like a few millimeters. They expected a Pink Floyd pig over Battersea, was that it? Yeah, exactly. It was not like the Pink Floyd pig. It was tragic. I mean, I have to say, the great

unwashed were out in force today because the weather, I mean, weather and unemployment do bring out a good crowd don't they so so so yeah i mean from the skies i imagine some of the photographs of the i these people are the are the renter mob people you see that you know one one day they're turning up for feminism the next day they're turning up for climate change and they they all got together because you know today is what today's Friday.

So it must be the Trump protest. Hey, James, all right, from the from the great unwashed in London to the Tory government who are trying to act on the Brexit vote of two years ago. Here's what you just here's what just went up in Breitbart by James Dellingpole. I don't know when you wrote it, but it has to be within the last few hours, I think. Donald Trump in Britain has, quote, has poured nitroglycerin on an already explosive political issue which threatens to destroy Prime Minister Theresa May and possibly even bring down her government. Close quote. Explain that. Oh, well, pray God I'm right. I mean, if anyone believes in democracy, if anyone left who believes in democracy,

then they would be cheering your president to the rafters for what he did by breaching protocol, admittedly, by coming over here. Tell us what he did. Tell us what he did tell us what he did tell us about this interview in this okay okay so as you know we have currently as our prime minister this this grisly woman called theresa may and theresa may is not famous for many things because she's been quite undistinguished as prime minister but one of the few things she promised in the aftermath of her predecessor's resignation david cameron you remember the guy who didn't want to give us brexit but reluctantly we went to have a referendum and the referendum

went the way he didn't want it to go i britain voted to leave the european union now of course this caused great division within within the country and within the Conservative Party, many of whose ministers were Remainers, for want of a better word. And Theresa May promised to be the kind of the prime minister of unity. She said Brexit means Brexit. So whatever other cock-ups she would make there was one thing she was going to do for us she was going to ensure that we had a clean break with the european union since then she has been backtracking to the point where last weekend she gathered all her cabinet

at checkers uh country residence and gave them an ultimatum, my way or the highway. And this was basically an ambush by the Remain establishment against the Brexiteer masses, if you like. She she cooked up a deal with her chief Remainer civil servant, a guy called Ollie Robbins. And he cooked up this plan whereby basically Britain was going to go into negotiations with with Michel Barnier the EU's chief negotiator and to sell Brexit down the river there was no other way of putting it it was a complete sellout and the few oh wait hold on hold on hold on there is one other way of putting it Michael Gove who was on the Brexit campaign, June 2016, Brexit wins by four points. And Michael Gove is one of the reasons I happen to know my friend James, that until recently, at least, you and Michael Gove were buddies. You exchanged emails, you were friends, you think very highly of Michael Gove. And Michael Gove came out of checkers and went straight onto television to defend the prime minister's plan, saying, in effect, look, under her plan, we will remain subject to certain commercial requirements by the European Union, but it gets us out. It accomplishes Brexit. We can fix other matters later. The United States declared independence in 1776 but didn't ratify the Constitution until 1788.

These things take time. Let not the perfect become the enemy of the good. Your friend Michael Gove was defending the prime minister. Yeah, my position on Michael Gove is love the sinner, hate the sin. Gove is my best friend in the cabinet. I was on a holiday with him in France only a month ago, and I love

him very much. But it doesn't mean that his judgment is perfect, as we've seen on occasions before. And I think Michael's intentions were good in that he sees that currently remain has a parliamentary majority. are determined to undo the to undermine the popular vote, the expression of the popular will that we made on June 24th, 2016. And he thinks that this is the kind of least worst option. I'm not sure whether Gove is right. I suspect that what's really happened is that there has been a a sort of closed

room stitch up between the remain dominated civil service and the European High Commission and I suspect that what's happened is that few noises about oh no no no you cannot have this this does not

this does not give us that freedom of movement exists yada, yada, yada. So he makes a pretense that he doesn't like it and in a few months time what's going to happen is this horrible hot out is going to

be accepted by the European Union and we're going to be in limbo for eternity. That is not we're going to be subject to the European Court of Justice we're going to be in limbo for eternity that is not we're going to be subject to the european court of justice we're going to be subject to all the euros european's regulations it's going to be ghastly hey james it's rob long in new york thanks for joining us again um so two years ago referendum the british people spoke what do what changed and do what what does if you're the prime minister right now what do you think what's your strategy do you were you just against it and you're always trying to figure out a way to sort of wiggle your way out of it or do you have new information

like maybe there's a softening to the uh leave vote maybe if they had a referendum today it would be to remain is that what she's thinking rob my dear sweet innocent american friend across the pond i would like i i'm charmed by your naivety and it's funny but the fact is this problem with british politics right now is nothing has changed since Brexit. The reason that they voted for Brexit is to get rid of that anti-democratic, sclerotic, self-serving elite across to all the people who attend Davos. That's what we were voting against. And they remain entrenched. And these people are the people who've been frustrating the democratic will.

Theresa May is part of that problem. Do you get it now? Yeah, I get it. I get it. I understand. But so as far as you're concerned, this is a suicide mission for them because the people are against it.

They are taking a gamble. They are figuring that what has what has applied in the past will apply today in other words that they will be able to to use their their wiles and their cunning tricks the problem is that people in the sticks the people in in the provinces outside london they knew this was their only shot of overthrowing that kind of anti-democratic elite. So that's why they voted for Brexit, despite all the advice from David Cameron, from your wonderful ex-president Obama, that we'd be back at the queue in terms of trade deals.

There was that ghastly woman, what's her name, Christine Lagarde of the International Monetary Fund. They all ganged up to tell us that Brexit would augur in the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And still we voted against it. And now that they're gambling on that, they'll get away with it again. They won't. James, James, Peter here. All right. Now, listen to this. The end of this is going to be the question all right what do you do now but listen to this theresa may has come up with a plan that would leave britain subject to some bits of the european union particularly bits covering trade in goods and you hate it and jacob reese mogg hates it

and boris johnson former foreign secretary has resigned on account of it but it turns out that you don't your side do not have the votes to win a vote of no confidence and bring theresa may down so you can't hold that vote of no confidence because if you hold a vote of no confidence and fail, no such vote can be held for another year and she will be totally secure in her position for another year. You're stuck. Theresa May, on the other hand, has this proposal and it now looks, if I'm reading the British newspapers correctly, it now looks as though she does not have the votes in parliament

to carry her own proposal, let alone to persuade the European Union to accept the terms she is now suggesting. So she is stuck. And the clock is ticking because under the terms of the European Union itself, Britain is going to be free of the, there is going to be an exit, a Brexit will take place in march of next year whether there are terms agreed or not and so britain is now careening toward this no deal exit which is likely to cause likely to cause certain to cause enormous economic dislocation all right as i say at the end of comes, what do you do about it right now? I'd like to question some of your premises there.

It's like Squish Central here. It really is, you guys. There's not a red-meating animal among you, is there? I feel like I'm doing all the carnivorous work while you live in this, I don't know living on tofu or something you're the one who was just sunning himself on the riviera with that turncoat michael gove james i'm mature enough i'm mature enough to differentiate friendship from politics all right i know you americans can't do that anyway look just just to pick up a few a few points it is not it's by no means certain that that uh the the conservatives won't be able to produce enough letters demanding that that theresa may

goes and i and i think i think we are by the way talking a corn laws issue. I think if if if Theresa May does not go, this will destroy the Conservative Party. They will be unelectable. Number one. Number two, this where did you get this propaganda from that? That no deal is a bad deal. No deal is actually our best hope. It's a really good thing. I mean, no deal is effectively what america's got right now with with britain wto rules that's i'd be happy with we don't want what we don't want is this kind of half pregnant arrangement whereby we're we're sort of kinder sorter in the european union but but but we don't have any voting rights. Not that they counted for much anyway.

Look, people did not vote for this. And I love all these kind of arguments which have been produced by the political establishment saying you can't leave the European – we can't give you your democratic rights because politics. People just don't buy that. We're in a new age. We're in the age of Donald Trump. And I'm afraid to say that what

the mood in Europe and in Britain is the same as it was in America. You know, we've had enough of this to stitch up against our interests. We want a different, we want a different world. We want democracy to apply. Did he say there were insufficient quantity of red meat questions from us here that were being too namby-pamby. I'm just saying. All right, let me end here, and we'll have to do this, James, because your signal is breaking up faster than the Empire after the Second World War. But we're told that we have to keep the European alliance together because otherwise France and Germany will be at their throats again,

historically, as they always do. The image brings to mind two old people attempting to snap wet silk towels at each other. We're not really afraid of Germany and France going at it again. What people are concerned about is the dissolution of NATO at the same time that Russia makes eyes toward its old Balkan properties, which aren't theirs. Is there any appetite in Britain for the defense of the balkans when it comes to russian aggression i think that to answer that question another way i think i think trump has one of the one of the arguments i heard used against against trump which which toby young used to advance on my my ricochet podcast used to say well of course trump's going to break up nato um He doesn't believe in NATO. Actually, Trump does believe in NATO.

He just believes that the European member states should pull their weight. And I think one of the things he's done is given a shot in the arm to all those defense secretaries, including our own Gavin Williamson, to say, look, hang on a second. If we are going to have any meaningful military alliance we've got to pull our weight germany is particularly bad i mean germany you think the country that produced the wehrmacht and wehrmacht and all these kind of terrifying ss panzer divisions is now a bunch of overweight losers they couldn't go to war against albania and win i don't think uh so i think that maybe just maybe look as you know in america if you've got a powerful military, you tend to feel more confident about yourself and you tend to tend to use it. But if we worry about the future of what Putin does and stuff and what China does, then clearly we need a sort of powerful military alliance in the West.

And I think maybe, just maybe, Trump has given a wake-up call to all those member states which have previously been ignoring their military obligations and letting their armies go to waste. Well, he might actually believe that he means it, and we hope that he does. We know that you mean everything that you say, and that's why we follow you on Twitter at James Delingpole, and we also read you wherever you happen to pop up. Thank you for joining us this morning, and we'll talk to you again next time. We'll have much more red meat, which, of course, we have a lot of here in America, because we're a big, strong,

powerful country. Happy Fourth of July, James. Yes, thank you, guys. Take care. You know, we were talking, we've had to stop this conversation 19 times, which you haven't heard listening to the podcast. Seamless as it is, thanks to the Yeti. But the British broadband system apparently is just awful.

You cannot get a signal. who had an arrow unit in his house and then one arrow unit like on a ship between uh england and new york we would have got a better signal because arrow well it's not good enough to span oceans but come on when it comes to your house listen to arrow anybody needed an arrow i gotta say it's james dellingpole we should send him one he needs an arrow this is ridiculous i mean he's probably six inches from the router, and it still can't work. But, you know, if you have an arrow here in America, you know that you have the kind of Wi-Fi system that we've always wanted. Fast and reliable connection in every single room and even in the backyard. That's right, the backyard.

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Somebody comes along, they hack it. It happens. You've read about these things. They're vulnerable to cyber attacks, a lot of the old routers. Only Arrow updates automatically, so you have the latest features and the latest security. And Arrow has incredible customer support, something they've really invested in because these guys have probably spent a lot of time on hold themselves with other products. You can call and get a hold of a Wi-Fi expert within 30 seconds. And now, Eero has gotten even better.

How is that possible, you ask? Well, with the addition of a third 5 gigahertz radio, the second generation Eero is now tri-band. And it's twice as fast as its predecessor. It lets you do more simultaneously in every room of your house. Now, whatever your Wi-Fi needs, Eero has the power to seamlessly blanket your home in fast, reliable Wi-Fi. And with the addition of the new Thread radio, Eero can connect to low-power Internet-connected devices as well, such as your locks, doorbells, other sensors, and other Internet-of-Things devices, if you're into that. Peter, you, of course, are an Internet of Things connected master. I know you probably have your doorbell, your security system, your locks, your toaster,

your dishwasher, everything hooked up. How is Arrow working for you? All I have is the Arrow. I don't have any of that stuff. But the Arrow has become absolutely vital to my life because I do a lot of work at home like you, James, like Rob. The computer connection is essential. And the arrow, A, it is genuinely easy to set up. 20 minutes tops. And that's if you actually go through the YouTube video of how to set it up and don't just do it. It's so obvious that you can do it without even looking at the YouTube video.

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Promo code Ricochet. Oh, and you'll love it, too. Thanks to Eero for sponsoring this, the Ricochet podcast, gentlemen. Well, we have a few minutes here before we head off. It seems silly sometimes to look at what's gone on the last week because it will be eclipsed instantaneously. But I think the one thing that emerges from the last week is Rob Long's old class roommate from the class of 55 is now a SCOTUS pick. And it's remarkable. Judging from what I hear from Mark Levin and from the rest of the internet on the left side, no one seems to be happy with this because Kavanaugh, something, something, Obamacare, and the left believes

in all of their heart of hearts that he's going to overturn Roe versus Wade, that this is the end of liberal democracy and the beginning of Sharia. Who's right? I have to say, what surprised me is what a good guy Brett Kavanaugh turns out to be. The stories over the last couple of days, he coaches his daughter's basketball, high school basketball team. And he he works regularly at a soup kitchen or at a kitchen for poor people. He went from his from some capital tour where he was meeting senators. He went that very same afternoon

back to the soup kitchen where he always works. And now that I know that he's a classmate of Rob's, I'm thinking how could the Yale class of whatever it was have contained both Brett Kavanaugh Multitudes. It contains multitudes. Peter, stop normalizing Francis and Rob Long.

Yeah, I know. Weird, huh? Stop normalizing evil, Peter. Hitler loves his dog. None of that means anything. It is a surprise, right? I mean, I did not – I mean, I expected – I think I who wanted a Scalia or more of a firebrand. There's a reason why there had to be a little bit of middle pathing here. I mean to the extent – it's still a solid conservative voice on the court, right?

But the middle pathing here is because the Republican majority in the Senate is not that strong. And one of the weak links, especially if you say McCain's not around, right? One of the weak links is that a reliable red state went blue. That's Alabama. These things have consequences. So I would say to all of the red meat Trump conservatives who were like – wanted a tougher, tougher guy and didn't know why he picked the friends of the Bushes and what would have been Jeb's pick, which would probably have been Brett Kavanaugh. This is because elections have consequences. If you throw an election away to make a point with Roy Moore in Alabama and you don't care, we're just going to make a point, that point will come back to bite you in the butt. And that's what this – I'm happy with Kavanaugh. I think he's a very good pick.

But if you wanted somebody more red, then you have to play the game. That's the way the Constitution is written and that's the way it's going to be. And you can hold your breath and stamp your feet, but the reason that we do not have – that there's not a red meat, really firebrand right winger going to be the next Supreme Court justice is because Steve Bannon blew it. You sound like a cosmopolitan, Bob. You sound like a cosmopolitan conservative there who doesn't realize that the swamp needs to be drained and that compromise is what got us where we are. I'm in America. I read the Constitution. This is the way the American government works. Well, Peter, isn't it – It won't change it.

I will see Rob's argument and raise it. The only hope for confirming Brett Kavanaugh is doing so quickly – it's not the only hope. It could be that the Republicans actually pick up a couple of seats in the next election. But that's taking a big risk. It is clear that Mitch McConnell wants to confirm Brett Kavanaugh before the midterm election. Now, how do you do that? You have to have the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee because he controls the calendar in that committee. And you may complain all you want about having a pro-choice Republican such as Susan Collins in the Republican caucus or another pro-choice Republican such as Lisa Murkowski of Alaska in the Republican caucus. But if the Republicans lose the majority,

they don't control the Senate Judiciary Committee. They lose the chairmanship. And the Senate majority leader controls the calendar about what votes move when on the floor. So the way to get this guy confirmed is by having 51 senators. Now that John McCain is ill, we really only have 51 senators. And that means you have to deal with any objections or concerns that Susan Collins of Maine might have or Lisa Murkowski of Alaska might have or who knows where he's going to come down on all this. Rand Paul of Kentucky might have, or Lisa Murkowski of Alaska might have, or who knows where he's going to come down on all this. Rand Paul of Kentucky might have. You have to deal with them because you have to get the job done, and that means you

must control the calendar. That's a good lord. I took an argument from Rob Long and instead of rebutting it, I extended it. And also, bear in mind that the reason that we're going to, I mean I think it's 90 percent certain unless a bunch of Yale female undergraduates decide to club together and suddenly remember things that Brett Kavanaugh did at Yale. We are going to have Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, Supreme Court Justice – oh, man.

His name just flew out of my head. I'm having a moment. The guy. Gorsuch. Gorsuch. Neil Garland. Yeah, right. Because Mitch McConnell is very, very, very, very good at his job.

Yes. And we – there have been a lot of like, I don't care about Mitch. We should primary Mitch, whatever. We didn't, and it matters. Skill matters. Even judicious compromise matters, and we would not – we would not be – there would be 100 percent certainty that we would have our Supreme Court justice, the most conservative one on the list, if Steve Bannon hadn't marched down there in Alabama and messed things up. And that is on him and it is on his supporters. That is on the entire sort of weirdly toxic amateur hour of that wing of the Trump supporters.

And you have to say it. And now we are, you know, we're escaping with the skin of our teeth. But we should have a solid majority in we should have a solid majority in the Senate. And we certainly shouldn't be worried about what the Democratic senator from Alabama is going to do. By the way, note to our listeners, after saying all those nice things about Donald Trump at the beginning of the podcast, Rob feels much better now

to be able at least to attack Steve Bannon. The air is clear. Well, you can't blame Trump for Bannon. It's one of those things where you see Steve going around Alabama and you think, if only the czar knew, this would never happen. He cared at all. Let those forces loose. And I'm not sure that Trump had his eye on Alabama that much. It's irrelevant now. Rob's right. We are in the situation where we require

skilled politics to do this. It is entirely possible that after 10 years, 20 years, and three Trump-appointed judges at the regulatory state may be severely crimped and personal freedom extremely expanded, and it won't be because of memes. It'll be because of skillful politics. The limitations

of your sort of meme-flamethrowing Twitter culture are apparent to all, but if you spend a lot of time on Twitter, which is fun, to see where the craziness is, you know that there are folks from actors to directors to politicians to not just raving frothing nutcases but employed well-educated raving frothing nutcases who see the world thus the election was stolen hillary won. Trump used the electoral college, which now is to go, and was put there by Putin. We live in an authoritarian state in which Merrick Garland was unfairly denied his seat. Gorsuch was installed. dealing between Kennedy and the Trump kids and loans and the rest of it. And it's all there to ensure the rule of white men over women's bodies and to roll back the EPA and to enshrine the power of the plutocracy forever. They believe this.

They believe this. How – exit question here. If only. Exit question for both of you before we leave. How much is this going to drag the Democratic Party over to the left to the point where normal scoop Jackson American patriotism that used to characterize at least what the Democrats had to pretend to be is unrecognizable? Are they going to end up the Democratic Socialist Party of bug-eyed, grinning young women who can't wait to nationalize everything? Peter?

That's sure where they're going. That's sure where they're going. And here's the most interesting development, the most interesting unreported development in politics in the last couple of weeks is that in the Senate race in Missouri, Josh Hawley, this brilliant young Republican, former, I guess he's still Attorney General, running for the Senate race in Missouri, Josh Hawley, this brilliant young Republican, former, I guess he's still Attorney General, running for the Senate, he's been trailing Claire McCaskill, the incumbent Democrat, by two or three points in the polls.

The last polls I've seen show that he's now up a point and a half to three points. And so the Democrats are doing themselves serious harm. Claire McCaskill is trying to portray herself when she's home in Missouri as a common sense Midwesterner for the working people. And she goes back to Washington and she's Elizabeth Warren's buddy. And the people in Missouri get it. Yeah. I mean I think you're right. For those of people who are like me who believe in the power of markets, right? This is a classic market failure.

It is so obvious what the Democrats need to do. It's so obvious. They just need to move to the center. The center is now kind of unoccupied, and all they need to do is move to the center. Most Americans, a huge proportion of Americans believe in the federal entitlement state. They don't want cuts in Social Security and Medicare even though I think they should. They don't. Most of them are conservative Democrats.

That has been the winning strategy for Democrats for 50 years, conservative Democrats, patriotic Democrats. That's really what you need, patriotic liberals. If a patriotic liberal emerged from the Democratic morass, which of course it can't because Obama kind of destroyed it, but if there was a – basically traditionally called a southern democratic governor, that person would be unstoppable today, unstoppable. And yet it's – and the market is so obvious for it, and yet there aren't any. It's a supply problem. It's not that they don't have a message. They don't even have a messenger, and that's what's so strange. The perfect messenger is Joe Biden. He's too old.

But why there aren't a sea of Joe Bidens in the Senate, a sea of Joe Bidens in state houses and governorships across the country is baffling to me. Hey, Rob, once again, I'll see your argument and raise you very briefly, James. They do actually have one of whom I'm aware, and that is Governor John Bel Edwards, the Democratic governor of Louisiana. He's conservative. He's a devout Catholic. He's pro-life. And what that means is that the national press ignores him.

And the National Democratic Party, he doesn't even exist so crazy when they have a crazy who fits his state and they just he might as well not even exist yeah yeah i think a lot of uh middle-aged liberals live in a world in which they believe out there that there's this Sorkin-esque president played by Bill Pullman who appeals to all. He's got a great right as a Gulf War jet pilot. He's muscular in defense, compassionate and all the rest of this sort of floating above in that way the presidents were in the 90s about political labels but those guys are gone they're being they're being swamped increasingly by the people who come in at the margins and demand that it's you know as i said before our attorney general candidate in minnesota for from the democratic from the dfl party is walking around with a i don't believe in borders t-shirt and sending out instagram pictures of himself holding up the antifa cookbook or whatever they call it with a grinning smile of approval.

I'll take him at his word for that. I'll do him the respect of believing that his messages are heartfelt. And if Minnesota, outstate, outside of the cities, that's not where they live. That's not where they are. And our paper recently did another piece where we went out and talked to people, and they said, we out here feel ignored. Nobody's paying attention to us. We want a mind open so we can have jobs. All the nice little environmental liberals come up from the city and say, no, you can't.

Nobody cares about us. And that's not over in 2016. It's not going to be over in 2018 or 20. It's going to continue to play out, he said, trying to wrap things up so we could go and have the rest of our day and you folks can get on with your life. But I have to tell you,

we've got one more thing to tell you, but I have to tell you this first. The podcast was brought to you by who? Well, by Bull and Branch, of course, by Blinkist and by Eero. Please support them for supporting us. Everybody wins on that one. If you enjoyed the show, even if you didn't, take a minute to

leave a review on iTunes. No, I take that back. If you didn't leave the show, enjoy the show, keep it to yourself, you miserable. Your reviews will allow new people to discover us, and that helps keep this show going. And finally, here's a little piece of information with help from you, the entire conversation.

Rob, you are where right now? I'm in New York City. That's what I thought. Thank you very much, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. That's it? I had nothing, but I just had to tease you for something. And great job with E.J. Hill on the art. Of course, I'm amused that I get

to have the yellowish Trump hair and that wonderful piece of work that he did. But, well, hey, like the art, like the show, talk about it. We'll see you in the comments at Ricochet 3.0. See you next week, guys. Thanks for watching. You've got to roll with it You've got to take your time You've got to say what you say

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