The Ricochet Podcast - That Hair

Episode Date: April 9, 2015

If it’s in depth political analysis and thinking you’re looking for, mazel tov, you’ve come to the right place. But before we get to that, we do a deep dive in to newly declared presidential candidate Rand Paul’s hair. Trust us folks, you’re not going to hear this on any MSM outlets, so buckle in. Then, Ricochet’s own Claire Berlinski checks in from France, aka The World’s Most Conservative... Source

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bet this is total betting sign up by 2 p.m 14th of march bet within 48 hours of race main market excluding specials and place bets terms apply bet responsibly 18 plus gambling care.ee hello everyone i'm not gonna get i don't know what's going to happen here. I don't have any information on that. They don't understand what you're talking about. And that's going to prove to be disastrous. What it means is that the people don't want socialism. They want more conservatism.

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. It's the Ricochet Podcast, and today we talk with Claire Berlinski about the most conservative country in the world, France. And we'll also talk to Norman Podhordes about the Iran deal. Let's have ourselves a podcast. There you go again. Yes, welcome to this, the Ricochet Podcast, number 256 if you're keeping track at home. And if you are, don't you have better things to do? Like figure out a new way to shave? Because Harry's is here to help you.

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Troll free and civilized. Now, whether or not we can keep that going in the teeth of an ever polarizing presidential season, I think that we can. But this last week, Peter, Peter Robinson, of course, the other half and founder of Ricochet. Peter, surely you looked upon the landscape, saw Rand Paul's declaration, and had some thoughts on that. I'm of the mind, and I'll just get this out of the way, that while there's much I like about the fellow, and I enjoy his Gingrich-like contentious relationship with the media to reframe things in a way that's actually beneficial and not loaded as they are, I find his manner and voice to be just a deal killer with the general electorate for a variety of reasons. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people warmed him like Paddington Bear.

Do go on. So what did you think? What did I think? I have a – I begin with a question. And I'm a little hesitant to ask this about Rand Paul because this touches on matters so deep, so personal that we seldom bring ourselves to talk about them. But Rob, James, his hair, his hair. I realized when he was making that announcement that at some level, somewhere in the back of my mind, as I had been thinking about Rand Paul, I'd interviewed him, as you know,

I was always supposing that when he ran for president of the united states he'd do something about that hair obviously he wants it that way all those little ringlet but am i am am i it just it it's roman yeah well there is a there's a kind of therapy, Peter, called rational emotive behavior therapy, right? Started in the 50s, and the idea is basically, hey, let's think about this before you react. And part of the therapy is you have to accept what could really happen. Maybe your expectations are outsized, and that's what's making you unhappy. And so I would throw it back to you. What should the man do?

I mean he can't straighten his hair. I mean I guess he can but he would look like James Brown. He should stop cutting it himself. Supposedly that's why it looks as odd as it does because he cuts it himself because he gets a ph bee out there i remember when my mom put a plastic uh you know something around skirt around my my neck and started shaving my own head with this thing that she bought at walgreens and i wanted to say are we poor did dad lose the station i because there was a vogue there why for doing it at home why pay big money at the salon well that's why because they know what they're doing if he cuts his own hair that can be one of those sort of lincoln-esque little tales

of here's a guy who knows the value of a dollar, but not when you sort of look like you walked out of a gallery of Roman portrait busts, as Peter's right, with all the strange little whorls and the rest of it. So obviously we're off to a really deep, profound, ideologically

piercing evaluation of the Ron Paul candidacy, but let's... Rand Paul, Rand Paul. Rand Paul, I'm sorry. You just made exactly the mistake that his campaign managers dread. Okay, so Rand Paul... piercing evaluation of the ron paul candidacy but let's say rand paul rand paul rand paul you just made exactly the mistake that his campaign managers dread okay so rand paul that is the question though right i mean the the mistake that you just made that is a mistake that people you know ron paul had a you know at a at a flamed out presidential um uh Ron Paul has a base of support, but it doesn't grow. It's what it is. Ron Paul also has a lot of weird stuff in his background that's not so great.

Is Ron Paul a liability now to Rand Paul? No, I think the media completely will disconnect him from his father. I don't think the media would ever use him as a cudge. Find the newsletters and throw them up at Rand Paul's house. No, no, no. That would be unfair and really a country needs more than that. The country needs a serious discussion. So I don't think we have to worry about that kind of diversion.

So Rand – all right. To give you what you asked for, James, to get off here and on to – so Rand Paul, I have a couple of responses and they're all positive. They're all welcome to the race, Senator Paul. When I interviewed him, I came to a couple of almost none of the usual politicians back-slapping bon ami. He does not even make much of an effort to be civil, courteous, yes, but warm, charming. I think he can be charming. I've seen moments in interviews, but he doesn't make that effort. And to tell you the truth, in the world of politics, I like seeing a fellow every so often who says, take me for my policies. I'm not even going to try on personality. Here's what I believe. Take it or leave it. That's not usual in someone who ends up as president,

but it's very refreshing in a presidential candidate. My second conclusion was that on foreign policy, he's still thinking it through, thinking through the politics. He wants a more reluctant United States, that is to say more reluctant to engage abroad. But the politics of that, I had the feeling at least when I was talking to him that it's a little bit unclear. There are moments when the whole nation seems to want to recall as it did during the final years of George W. Bush. And then there are moments when it seems only a kind of libertarian core. So the politics of that is complicated. He gave a big speech last year in which he quoted George Kennan and seemed not to realize, the text seemed to me to be a little bit clumsy in dealing with Kennan, that George Kennan, who lived, as I recall, to the age of 102, had about two or three different positions on the Cold War. He was the original Cold Warrior, literally so. He's the author of the 1947, as I recall, long telegram that laid out the containment policy. But in the last third, at least, if not the last half of his life, he was at Princeton, diplomat in residence, I think was his title. And he became a liberal and turned on, he was vicious, really vicious, I think is the word, on Ronald Reagan

in particular. Kennan was then a very old man. And so he established the containment policy and spent about a quarter of a century criticizing any president who attempted to put it into effect. The point is there were a couple of different George Kennans and Rand Paul seemed not to wait, know his way around that material. So terrific. He's going to be, even as Lindsey Graham, who I believe is going to announce for president and and Lindsey Graham I don't think really believes he can become president, but he's determined to introduce the importance of a strong America abroad into the debate. Rand Paul is determined to see what he can do to expand the Republican base in new ways and to start a conversation on foreign policy and domestic policy, but especially foreign policy from his point of view. Terrific.

Intelligent man. Let him come. We'll see what happens. Peter, you're an old man. You're as old as I am, older, and older than James. So I'm peeling the memory here. It is incredibly, it has been for the past seven years, six years, incredibly attractive habit, at least of mine, to compare this president to Jimmy Carter.

Right. And to compare the malaise of the late 70s and the sort of hapless leadership to the same leadership we have today, I think a lot of that is wrong, and I think a lot of that is misplaced. It's led us to sometimes get outsmarted by the other side. But there are parallels, right? Oh, sure. Don't you think – isn't – do you believe, as I do, I should say this, that this coming presidential –

The answer is yes, Rob. Yeah, thank you. This coming presidential election is going to be more about American defense and defense policy and foreign policy than any time since 1979? I do – the answer is I do. that people like us who write and jabber for a living can quite often be misled, particularly in that that's the usual, this time it's going to be about foreign policy. And I was, last time I was in Washington, what was this, a couple months ago, Haley Barber, former governor of Mississippi, and boy, does he know his way around politics. There were three or four people at the dinner making this very point,

this year it'll be about foreign policy. And Haley stood up and said, well, maybe. But you just remember, American politics is almost always, when it comes right down to it, about the economy. So, go ahead. But I was going to say, I guess foreign policy is the plummy way to put American defense. Yes. And the feeling that America's defenses are not as strong to put American defense. Yes. And the feeling that America's defenses are not as strong as they should be. Yes.

And I suspect, I just, I mean, I just, just looking at the, the parallels start to seem like, you know, we have a, we have a major international treaty deal that is having, will is completely unpopular, probably DOA in Congress. If it goes, reminds me a lot of SALT II. Obviously there are differences, but there were. There are similarities.

The idea that whoever runs is going to have to at least have a very strong, robust, full-throated position on American defense, and I think that is ultimately what hurts Rand. Right, right, right, right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I agree with every word of that. I mean, as to the parallel, what we don't have, and may we never, but what we don't have is hostages in Tehran. So that the evening news, which, as you will remember, in those days, there were only three big stations and everybody watched one version or another of that evening news each evening. And every single evening for a year, there was some news about our hostages being held in.

It created a news TV show by itself. Nightline did not exist until the hostages. Exactly. Exactly. So we don't have anything that every 24 hours reminds Americans of how bad things are. Still, still. Go ahead. That's absolutely right.

There were three events. There was the invasion of Afghanistan, which made the Soviet Union seem like this big muscular colossus striding the world. There was a hostage crisis. And there was Nicaragua, which made it seem like the commies were coming up and we're going to take over Central America, which of course now looks ridiculous. But at the time was an absolutely sensible fear. I mean, this is what people thought was going to happen for good reason because they were on the march. Because it was happening. Right.

There were commies down there. So, yes, these were three things. And when you don't have a 24-hour blathering news cycle that fritters everything away into confetti, yeah, people have that in their mind. I think Haley Barber is right. Yes, maybe. I think Rob's right in the sense that American defense and maybe spending more on that and modernizing our forces is something people want to do. But if it's Hillary Clinton making that point, then it's Hillary Clinton making that point to get elected and then doing squat about it when she's in. If it's Elizabeth Warren trying to make that point, that would be delicious.

But if we have Rand Paul versus Elizabeth Warren in the final presidential election, then our adversaries will be leaning over backwards, slapping their thighs and wiping the tears of laughter from their face. Yeah, I think something will have gone wrong. It will be a market failure if it's Elizabeth Warren versus Rand Paul, I think. Not because I don't think it can happen, but because a lot of other things have to happen first. Speaking of happening first, let's make something happen next, and that is let's just do it. At PTSP, we're making it easier than ever for our customers to save.

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Bet within 48 hours of race. Main market excluding specials and place bets. Terms apply. Bet responsibly. 18plusgamblingcare.ie Claire's hanging around, so why are we just talking to ourselves when we can be talking to Claire? I love the bio here that I've been handed in the praises. She's written for Ricochet since day one of the site, and everyone loves her.

Well, have we put that to any sort of referendum? I bet it's probably true. Oh, every day. Every day at the referendum. All right, Claire, so we got to ask here. Obviously, it's you, and the signal has not been hacked and hijacked by ISIS as French television was this week. It was?

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. There was something like that. It wasn't French television though, was it? I understand it was Channel 5. It was TV5. Yeah, it was the television as well as the website. I saw this from the corner of my eye that something important was hacked by ISIS. Okay, you're not really in Paris, are you?

You're in Indiana, and you're just making up, you made up the whole Istanbul thing, you made up the whole Paris thing, you've never left the confines of Bloomington, Indiana. Au contraire, I am in Paris, and we're experiencing our daily labor

strikes. Well, here's what I have to ask. Are new sums still, Charlie? In other words, all that wonderful solidarity that everybody felt and that something had changed deeply. I actually just walked past the office this afternoon and I always forget

where it is because it's very low key. I pass by it and there are the flowers outside and it's definitely something the country is still feeling. It's only been a few months. Peter, Rob, are you there or are you just uh you were on such a lovely role yeah i was just waiting the two of you were starting to jabber away in french i couldn't understand a word but i like the sound of it well but peter's such an american he was just offended by any other uh any romance language thrown in there no no let. Let me teach you four really important words of French here.

Repeat after me. Au contraire, mon frère. Exactly. Au contraire, mon frère. And I'd like to hear you all say it after me. Au contraire, mon frère. Au contraire, ma chère. Very nice.

Very nice. But in my family, we say mon frère. All right. So, Claire, Peter here. Hi, Peter. Does France seem to work to you? Does this country seem to you to be a functioning country? Yeah, very much so.

France really does work in its own way. It's a very, very interesting country because it's so much more conservative than people realize. And I mean that in not quite the sense of conservative that Americans use it, but France is not going to change ever, for better or worse. It is not a country that is ever going to race into a lot of fads ever again. And it's not going to catch up with a globalized world. that's it's really a conflict but in a lot of ways it's conservatism works for it uh it manages to stay out of a lot of trouble because it doesn't like doing new things uh france wasn't wasn't really hammered by the mortgage crisis for example because they don't like doing all sorts of newfangled financial things uh yeah i think france is pretty functional pretty stable much more so than i expected it to be at this point. Pardon me for a second, Peter. Go ahead.

There's a reason that chauvinism is a French word. And it would seem that that sort of fierce conservative nationalism and pride in their own culture, which is so indisputably French, is at odds with the supposed Euro project that we have going today, which seeks to subsume all the nations into one little gray stew of European sameness. Here's the main thing that people don't get when they say that. This project is a French project. It's really a project for France to punch outside its weight, and it's worked very successfully. It's other countries that don't want to be subsumed under a bunch of French agricultural rules and French bureaucratic traditions. So it really

works out much better for France than it does for any other country except for possibly Germany. Even Germany, I think, is looking at France and saying, how did we get swindled into this? Go ahead, James. I'm sorry. I keep hearing Peter draw a breath, but there's so much that Claire says that's fascinating. Go ahead.

And when you also said that France is suspicious of the new, I mean, France at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th was, in many ways, what America later picked up a mantle and draped it around its own shoulders. It was the place of technological progress. There was great pride in that. Absolutely gone, right.

I mean what killed it? Was it the Panama Canal failure? Was it World War I Maginot Line failure? Was it World War II period? What killed that French pride in that? I don't think you have to look too far to ask what killed it. You just look at the war memorials. France literally generation – two generations died.

It was just an unbelievable bloodletting. No civilization can really recover from that completely. All of the exuberant confidence, and then of course the loss of the empire, the exuberant confidence of an imperial power was completely wiped out. And it won't ever come back. It won't ever come back. It won't ever come back, even though the population is really doing quite well. It's mostly above replacement rate. It's never going to be. It's never going to be the France that it was. But it's not a country that's experiencing tremendous problems either. This is something I didn't predict. I thought I was going to see – go on. Now Peter has to go –

So what do you mean it's not experiencing serious problems? Two items. Three. One, youth unemployment rate has been over 25% for two decades. There is a permanent – No, it hasn't been that high. It hasn't been that high. It's more like 10%.

No, no, no. Young unemployment among youth under the age of – I think it's 25. That statistic has been rock solid since toward the end of the 80s. Kids can't find jobs in France. It's just not that high. It's more like 10%, but we'll go back to that. Oh, really? Yeah.

You have statistics that, okay, so you're there. Well, now you're challenging me. I'll have to do the research and put up, we'll have to put up battling statistics. Item one. Item two. Why is it that the third, I think it's the third biggest French city in Europe is London because anybody who wants to start a company, frankly, these days, anybody who wants to open a restaurant gets out of France.

It is hostile to entrepreneurs. It is. population is Muslim. And we know from polls, unless you're going to tell me there are different statistics on this, I'd be very relieved to hear it. But we know from polls that something like 90% of that 10% is at least in one way or another sympathetic toward the agenda of radical Islam. 10% of your population that would be willing to see the country more or less turned upside down is not a healthy thing. Rebuttal? Well, let's disaggregate all these things. The first, entrepreneurialism.

Yes, France has a tremendous problem with this. And this is partly connected to its conservatism. It's partly connected to a culture in which having new ideas, wanting to build crazy new things, it's just not part of France anymore. And a lot of people are leaving for just that reason, high taxes, not feeling that there is an ecosystem for innovation. And, I mean, obviously to Americans this is just dreary. It's just dreary and it doesn't make anyone want to come here to start a business. There are compensations for that because you have

a very intact way of life. It's very notable when you consider the influence of the internet. I have written on Ricochet recently about this feeling of it's just taken over my life. It's outsourced my job. I know that for a fact. And this is all happening too fast. I think many people, many people feel that way. And in America, the idea, the natural response is, well, yes, that's what happens. Change happens and it happens fast. And that's how we are America and how we stay America. And France has just rejected this. You can't find, they can't build a website here. There's never going to be a Google here or a Facebook. And in fact, they had Minitel and they didn't know what to do with it, right? It's just not the way they think. It does have a lot of compensations in terms of intact ways of living.

How long they can go on like this before globalization just steamrollers them, I don't know. But they're managing to hang on to a lot of things that are worth hanging on to, intact ways of – something like an intact family structure, although it's not quite what Americans would recognize as that, not what conservative Americans would recognize that. Intact ways, intact communities. I think low crime rates are correlated to that. So I don't know. I'm looking at the country with puzzlement because I do see something that is recognizably conservative here, something I understand. They're standing on top of history and yelling stop, right? So, Claire, this is a bit of a caricature, but really what you're saying adds up to the following. France has become a really lovely place to which to retire yes

exactly and i'm wondering if i've done it a little too soon frankly because it is boring oh but that's okay rob over to you i was gonna say that that is ultimately what i mean france is different from paris paris is different from the rest of the country. Paris is this giant drain of all the revenue. It takes all the money. And he says that Paris is emerging as one of those international cities now, like Singapore or Amsterdam or Paris or New York or San Francisco, where young people, global people can choose to live for a while because it suits them. Their knowledge workers, it doesn't really matter where they are. So if you're young and you have kids, you go to Singapore because Singapore is restricted civil liberties, but it's safe. And it's a well policed state. Yeah, but why would young people want to go there? That's something you do when you're old. I mean, young people with families, like a young couple with young kids, it's a very good place to raise kids. If you're young and you want to sort of be cool and hang out, you go to Amsterdam or San Francisco. Well, if you're young and you want to be an entrepreneur, the place to go is Delhi.

Or the place to go is San Francisco. The place to go is – Go further west, even further west. The really wild west is India now. That is true. That is true. Claire is right about that, but she mispronounced it. It's called Dallas.

Well, there's that too, right? But I guess I just stick up to the French a little bit. The French are not – are surprisingly – they punch surprisingly above their weight in technology and technology innovation, whether they have an entrepreneurial base for it or not. They certainly have an education, an educated base for that. And France did a very smart thing, as Claire alluded to. They hooked up with the big brute Germany and decided to unify Europe. France accomplished with the

EU what Napoleon failed to do, which is to get a European Union with the German muscle and money and French bureaucracy intact. That's kind of what they did. They persuaded the Germans to stop invading them and they imposed and they're the Germans to stop invading them and they imposed

and they're the ones who are winning the war of imposing EU bureaucracy on everyone else. So my question to Claire is, what can we learn? In the sense that we can learn anything from anyone. What can we learn from France about our...

France has very successfully resisted the onslaught of political correctness that the United States is just trembling from. And their academy might be kind of a clichacy that we keep laughing about on Ricochet of the victim culture. It's just not part of France. And it's very interesting to see that. I think the image of vaccination might even be healthy here. There's enough of this that's part of France that they haven't – they don't have the kind of polarization that we do. And certainly in relationships between men and women, this is true, and in attitudes toward food, in attitudes toward health, there's a conservatism, a baseline conservatism that's quite healthy. Now, Peter, you were asking about, and everyone asked me about this, what on earth is going on with French Muslims?

Yes. And this is a very difficult thing to figure out because, of course, it is illegal in France to look at certain kinds of data. And we don't know, we don't actually know how many french citizens are muslims you're not allowed to you're not legally allowed to find out um my impression and it's anecdotal but i've been i've been living here for a while most french muslims are indeed very well integrated um not particularly devout not particularly they're they're more culturally muslim than than than practicing there's a lot of intermarriage there's intermarriage with french

with with ordinary non-muslim french you mean yeah but don't forget many french people are muslims in france france was in algeria for a very long time it's in northern africa for a long time and there's at this point there is so much intermarriage that it's – I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that a French citizen who's a Muslim is not French because really, they're much more French than me. And there is obviously a problem with an underclass. And we don't know how big that problem is. We really don't. We know that there are, that the, we have incidents like what happened with Shadi Abdo, but they're not that frequent.

And we really just don't know how big the problem is. Well, in terms of political correctness, what you were speaking about before, when the RFRA issue was burning everything up here last week, my French brother-in-law in the car turned around, grinned at me and said, that is why I'm in France. I'm glad we have freedom from religion. Repeating the old anti-clerical theme that goes back to back to back to set. Let's stay in and watch a film. Don't forget to switch the lights off. Will you pop the kettle on? It's freezing. Switching things on and watch a film. Don't forget to switch the lights off. Will you pop the kettle on? It's freezing.

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1789. So you have a secularized culture which has shed its religious past and is now being confronted with a new segment which is much more religious. And then you have Holaback, for example, coming out with a novel about the first Muslim premier or president of France. Is there an idea that the culture itself lacks its own religious texts and faith and center and that it has nothing really to offer in response to an increasing religious component of their population? Well, this seems like a hysteric to me. I really do not see that scenario as remotely plausible. I think there is certainly a sense in France of not having a national vocation.

And I think that's partly a result of being a dechristianized culture. And it's partly a result of the loss of the empire. Partly a loss of the mission civilitrice. So I think France has no real idea what it stands for and to some extent that's been replaced with, well, France is going to set the global standard for living well. We're going to show people what it's like

to have balance in our lives. But that's not quite true. The French have a, they do have a more proper, right, they do kind of know where they mean, the French have a they do have a, you know, a more proper right. They do. They do kind of know where they are in the world. They at least have until very recently. They are the rationalists. They're the one the clear eyed rationalists. They're pragmatic. They kind of roll their eyes when Americans get frothy about issues. Yes. Simmer down, young man. It'll all be fine. You need to take a more practical and cynical worldview. That's been the French international posture since, well, since the 50s, since de Gaulle. And they would see much of American culture as being just extreme.

What's the sort of thing that the French just don't understand? They certainly can't for a moment understand why Americans are passionate about guns. They find that very strange. And it's very difficult to explain that to anyone in France. It is a different culture. It is a different culture. It is a different culture. It's not Anglo-American culture. And in many of these cases where they look at America and they say that's so extreme on both sides, I think they have a point.

There is a lot of polarization in America right now, a really absurd polarization. The entire business with Indiana was just mass hysteria. Crazy mass hysteria. This is the point where the foreign office says she's gone native. It's time to bring her back. Don't you agree with me? That's another podcast entirely and we're going to have it and we hope to

have you on it or we hope to mix it up in the usual place on Ricochet uh thank you so much for being with us today and i wish we had another seven hours because i think you did too i thought we were just starting it feels like it doesn't it but you know in the in the podcast world rob has to parachute out of his chair at a at the top of the hour because he's a busy he's a busy television fellow now don't you know know? And busy executive, as they say. Yes, he is.

Peter has to finish his book, and I have to go to my brand new office, so we all have things to do that unfortunately impinge upon the unrolling of the delightful conversation, which we hope to pick up as soon as possible. Claire, thank you for being with us. I'm not a native, by the way. I still retain a big distance from France, but I find it a very interesting country, and it's not quite where I thought it would be at this point.

Well, good. We'll talk to you more about this on the site and have you. And I hope the next time we have you, it's not because anything bad happened in France. It's because something good happened in France and you're the person on the spot. I know better than to complain that France is boring because the last time I did that, something very unboring happened, but basically

it's pretty boring. All right. Next time we'll talk about how the imprisonment of Gustave Eiffel was the beginning of the downfall of French technology. We'll talk to you then. All right. Take care. Bye, Claire. You know, I mentioned frequently my French brother-in-law, who's very proud of a piece

of French technology. He was showing me the other day, it's this thing that he thinks is going to beat the iWatch. You clap it on your wrist and it has all of these little sensors and it actually projects on your wrist the screen of your iPhone. It's pretty cool. And you can manipulate maps. You can do all the things you can do on a touchscreen on your wrist just by using your

fingers, using this little device. And he's just and he's smiling. He's showing this to me. He said, this is real. This is not a this is not a gimmick. This is French technology. And he had this just joy to him that French technology had accomplished something. And he's right.

Let's look around the rest of Europe. What has Germany done in technology? Germany, it's been 98 years since Germany actually built a good razor blade factory. But the one that they built is still the best in the world. And you can get blades from it and delivered right to your house.

I was really going to jump in and like I had a thought here. Wow, that's great. Jump not lest ye be jumped. No, I don't want to jump into your spot here. Go right ahead. Basically, I can't keep up really on intricacies and innovations in German technology, but I do know that that factory turns out the best blades in the world. And if your face, if you like it, and you do,

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thinking the thinking population of the political i hear somebody somebody wants to say something i just peter no i certainly want to ask norman some questions but i'm i'm trying to hold i'm actually making an effort to hold to restrain myself until you call on me james okay well i will do so in just a second first we welcome back to the podcast with pride norman putt quartz the editor of commentary magazine from 1960 to 1995 and i'll bet norman's got a few thoughts on this deal supposedly that the president thinks is the greatest thing ever since. So, well, like Rob mentioned before, start to welcome back to the podcast, sir.

All right. Thanks. Glad to be with you guys. Norman, I'm not restraining myself. Peter here, Peter Robinson. You put up a blog, you put up a blog post on the commentary website about 48 hours ago which has gotten a lot of attention everywhere anyone has a computer quote i consider the agreement obama has negotiated this is the agreement with iran a dishonorable and dangerous product of appeasement nevertheless i

have to confess that and this is what has got everyone's attention, I think he is right an alternative that would have would leave the alternative but war i mean the point is that i thought that one written several times for about another last six or seven years that nothing short of nuclear uh... newt scutting their military force uh... could stop iran from getting the bomb and. And as the years have gone on, I've become more and more convinced of that. And this latest charade, it's almost like the Marx Brothers negotiating a deal, has confirmed me in that view.

The deal is ridiculous in all kinds of ways. I mean, it leaves the nuclear infrastructure intact, and it gives Iran enormous room for cheating. But even apart from that, the fact is that it would do nothing to stop them from getting the bomb. It actually implicitly acknowledges their right, I would almost say, to develop a bomb. Now, if the purpose of the exercise negotiations have been going on now for, what, 10 years, 12 years, is to stop them from getting the bomb, clearly they have failed. And if we want to stop them, I think only military force would do the trick. It would be preferable, in my view, for the United States to undertake that responsibility

because we have all the necessary equipment, planes... and munitions uh... but uh... it's clear that obama's not going to do it and uh... that leaves uh... israel and deviant kanyahu with the ball in their court and uh... my own view not shared by many people is that the israelis do wish to do it and could in fact uh... executed successful series of of bombing raids. But in order to do so, they would have to defy the United States, and they would risk losing American support at the UN,

which, incidentally, Obama has already threatened to consider, as well as the resupply of equipment that they would need starting from day two, the kind of resupply that Nixon undertook in the Yom Kippur War and actually saved Israel from deceit. So it would be an enormous risk for the Israelis, but they may in the end feel that they have no alternative. They cannot live with an Iran pledged openly to wiping them off the map, with an Iran that would have the means to do so.

And incidentally, so that's why I say that the choice now before us is not a negotiated settlement or war. I think the choice before us now is a conventional war now as against a nuclear war later. The reason I think that it would be a nuclear war is that you have to imagine what would happen if Iran gets the bomb and the Israelis are sitting there wondering, are they going to wait to be hit and then retaliate out of the rubble, or are they going to preempt? And the Iranians are asking themselves the same question. One or the other is going to beat the other to the punch. It would be a hair-trigger situation such as we have never seen since the invention of nuclear weapons, even more than the Cuban Missile Crisis.

So, Norman, that's Peter here again. Yeah. I think, well, here's what, all right. The Israelis and the Iranians could not live with each other having a bomb. You write in your piece that war would be, I'm characterizing what you say here, war would be tremendously expensive and destructive, and yet it would be, quote, as nothing compared with the nuclear arms race that an Iranian bomb would set off throughout the Middle East. Close quote. Okay. And the answer to that is or an answer to that is Norman for four and a half. Well, for four decades, the United States and the Soviet Union both had nuclear weapons. And by the time Margaret Thatcher came along, it was so clear that the nuclear weapons were an element for stability in the world that when Ronald Reagan attempted to cut a deal with Mikhail Gorbachev scaling back on nuclear weapons very sharply at Reykjavik, Mrs. Thatcher was appalled. Iran –

So was I. So were you. So was I. So Iran – I So were you. So was I. So Iran, I beg your pardon, India and Pakistan were supposed to go to war two days after they both got nuclear weapons. And they seem to have achieved the same kind of standoff. Why could we not expect? And I myself, I get the feeling that the Obama administration is trying to move the country to the position at which we all say, well, yes, of course.

But look, we're mature people. We understand that balances of power do assert themselves. Relax. They'll sort it out over there. Even after they have nuclear weapons, they'll sort it out. Why not? Because let me rely on the authority of Bernard Lewis, who, you know I revere and widely accept as the greatest authority on Islam among contemporary scholars. Lewis says that the threat of... it's not a deterrent

to the uh... mullins of iran it's an incentive that is uh... we we want most of us can't even imagine the mindset that uh... that we phrase where we can try to their eyes and the the people uh... who uh... believed that uh... that it's uh... they are wholly duty to wipe out the state of israel they've said so uh... thousand times

most recently about a week ago uh... and uh... they also believes that uh... martyrdom uh... in pursuit of a holy objective uh... uh... is uh... if it is a guaranteed ticket to paradise now uh... you know the the latest conventional wisdom is all of the exaggeration there and i mean they all have swiss bank accounts and that suicidal uh... but uh... but the truth of the matter is i mean i think uh... i think

bernard lewis is right uh... we know uh... thatsanjani, who was always characterized as a moderate, once said if there were a nuclear exchange with Israel, Israel would be wiped out, but Islam would survive. He said Islam, not Iran. And Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic, actually said, I don't give a damn about Islam, about Iran. What matters is the Islamic ummah, that is, the realm of Islam. And by the way, in the Shiite theology, caring about a nation is a form of idolatry, paganism. So that you have to take that kind of thing seriously. And if you combine it with what we know about the willingness of Iranians to sacrifice even their kids.

The Iran-Iraq War, where I think something like a million Iranians lost their lives, they sent little kids into battle as sappers, to blow up mines that were planted so that they could make an advance with their tanks or infantry. And they sent them there with plastic keys around their neck. These were the keys to paradise that they would purchase by getting themselves blown up and running into minefields. That's the kind of people you're dealing with here. The Soviets never produced... The Soviets were not suicidal, whatever else they were. They never produced suicide bombers, right.

And they were not suicidal, not the leaders, not the people. I mean, they were, in that sense, relatively rational. But these people are not deterred by the fear of death. Let me ask you, go ahead. Well, I was just – one other – it seems to me an impulse that we see a lot in American politics in recent weeks is, okay, okay, look. Obama is willing to cut, which at least kicks the can down the road a full decade. Why should the United States go to war? Even Reagan let the Afghans fight for themselves in Afghanistan, and he gave the Contras support to let them fight their own fight in Nicaragua. Not even just Israel, but we've got the Egyptians now are taking things into their hands. They've bombed ISIS positions in Libya.

Now the Egyptians and the Saudis together are finally bestirring themselves to take action in their own region in Yemen. For goodness sake, if it's so important, let Israel fight its fight. Why should we get involved? That, I think, is a powerful impulse. How do you answer that? Well, it's a bad question in the sense that Israel is not and never has asked for American troops to fight. All they ask for is diplomatic support and help with weaponry. The Israelis are horrified at the thought

that Americans might have to lose their lives. They want to fight for themselves, and that's what the United States is basically trying to prevent them from doing. Even George W. Bush, who was very pro-Israel, about 100 times more so than Obama, tried to stop them, told them they should not do it, and would not give them bunker busters, which is what everybody says they need to get to the Fordow installation.

It's buried in a mountain. There are people who say, military experts in Israel, who say that the Israelis could do the job and set the program back they are paper tigers. They have nothing with which to undertake such a mission. And the Israelis do. I mean, all they would need is a green light from us and the diplomatic and logistical support that they would need from the United States. Hey, Norman, it's Rob Long from New York. Hey, how are you? So we brought up Israel. I have two questions. One is how much of this from the Obama administration is about Iran and how much of it is about balancing what they see as Israel's outsized power.

And then the second question is sort of a follow-on, which is how long do the Israelis wait for America to come to its senses before they take action unilaterally? Well, to answer your first question is that Israel doesn't figure, in my opinion, in Obama's strategic calculations. What he wants is not to stop the Iranians from getting the bomb. He is in quest of a detente or even a de facto alliance with the Iranians,

which you can already see the outlines of this in Iraq, where he is cooperating with the Iranians in the fighting off ISIS. You can see it in the refusal to do anything in Syria that would upset the Iranians, who are masters now in Syria. Syria's an ally. So, I mean, that's what he's after. He thinks we can live with the Iranian bomb, but he wants a Dayton an alliance with Iran, and he's willing to ignore the interests of Israel in pursuit of this objective. No doubt he tells himself that that's not what he's doing, but that would be one of the consequences.

So you don't see this as some larger contain Israel move? Israel has outsized influence, outsized military power, outsized beyond its borders, and maybe it's time to take them down a peg? Well, I'm sure he doesn't mind taking them down a peg, but I don't think that's the crucial consideration here. It's mainly to disregard Israeli objections, which he has been doing and preparing to do further for a long time now. I think the other quail, how long does Israel wait? Well, there are a lot of disagreements about that. Some people say that the time has passed israel will not be able to undertake the mission because it would be too dangerous for them to try to do it without american support uh... i uh... i'm among the minority think that they they will at some point

and sooner rather than later uh... give it a shot because uh... will try to ask you say you know how can they how can they possibly accept the situation in which a country that is sworn to their destruction acquires the means to do it and so what they have to do is preempt before Iran acquires those means. And that would be, I don't know exactly how long, but not all that far away. I mean, the estimates differ. I mean, some say the Iranians could actually produce a bomb within several months now. And we say we can extend it to a year.

But even then, that's a very short time. And now, of course, the rubber's hit the road. I mean, there's no... There's no Stuxnet solution in the future. Well, who knows? I mean, my guess is that that would be one of the components of an Israeli attack. I mean, they would...

Some kind of cyber war combined with aerial bombardment combined very likely with the submarine warfare. Everybody forgets that they have a navy which is equipped with whatever kind of missiles you need. And they undoubtedly have some of those prowling around in the Gulf. So I would guess it would be a combination of all three.

And they would have to try to take out the grids, the electric grids, which would disable command and control, and that's something that you could probably do if you knew enough with cyber warfare. So it would be that kind of operation if it happens. Peter, I'm here with a last question for you. As I consider this in my own mind, thinking through who are the main opponents right now of the deal with Iran, who is warning most seriously, most gravely against the deal, three names come to mind. Henry Kissinger, George Shultz, both of whom signed a long and very thoughtful and frankly, piece in the Wall Street Journal yesterday. Very surprisingly tough. Very tough. And I agree.

It was also surprisingly tough. And Norman Podhoretz. And Henry Kissinger. Well, you left out Netanyahu, yeah. Well, you're talking about domestic opponents. And Henry Kissinger and George Shultz are both over 90. And you, God bless you, may you live forever, but you are over 80.

I'm 85, actually, yeah. very generational component of this that frankly may concern you, that the men who are most worried have lived longest and seen the most. Well, you may very well be right. And there's also a strong strain of opposition to any American involvement in any kind of military operation in the Middle East. But I have to stress again that the Israelis not only are not asking for the United States to go to war, they would positively oppose it vigorously. They don't want anybody to fight for them. They want to fight for themselves. All they want is diplomatic and logistical help.

I don't know what young people think. I mean, I got so bored in the 1960s with everybody's obsession with what the young think that I've lost any interest in it. I care about my grandchildren, and now great-grandchildren, those are the young I care about. Well, we thank you for coming on today, Mr. Potthorst. And, you know, where this goes absolutely nobody knows,

but the temptation is to think that it just grinds out and grinds out and nothing happens until the worst, until we see a mushroom cloud in Tehran of their own devising. And by that time, the president will have been long retired and will be hitting balls off the cliff in Hawaii, and it'll be somebody else's problem. might or might not be. I mean, I haven't talked about the dangers of the nuclear arms race that the Iranian bomb will set off and the instability that will cause and the danger that these weapons could fall into the hands of terrorist groups. I mean, most people who think about these matters believe that if you have a nuclear arms race in the Middle East and really already beginning it will be almost impossible to prevent

the use of these weapons by somebody I'm not just now talking about Israel versus Iran I so it I mean we are inviting a nuclear war but I mean the Obama administration is in fact inviting a nuclear war. I mean, the Obama administration is, in fact, inviting a nuclear war by the policy it's pursuing. So history may well indeed record. Thanks for being with us today on the podcast, sir. We hope to have you on again in the near future. Have a great day.

Love to. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. And Rob is still there. He's right, of course. You're going to have a nuclear arms race. And I'd be surprised if Saudi Arabia at this very moment didn't have guys in Pakistan writing checks saying,

how much you want for these? Fine. And how it doesn't come to blows, I don't know. Ever since 9-11, I've thought that that's where this has to go. That's where it's going to go. And who gets it, who gets the cloud is the only question. It may be a little depressing to think about, but do you see any way, do you see any way actually that this is going to end with something other

than somebody having the big swap meet? Rob, you seem to be – Well, I don't know. There's a sound as if you put those little symbols on your fingers that the belly dancers use. Oh, really? No, sorry about that. I'm not sure.

I can't imagine that kicking the can down the road. That's ultimately what the Obama administration's position is on this deal. We are simply buying ourselves some time, and we think something else will happen between now and then that will change it all around. That's their unofficial policy, but probably the most lucid way to describe their policy and their evidence for that is that well that's the way it's been with iran and the bomb for the past 10 years or 12 years um and they're correct that that when you're developing nuclear power nuclear powers uh you you uh there's lots of fits and starts and it takes a while and you can in the early days you can make a couple of deals and then you can send in a computer virus called Stuxnet and that disrupts them for another three years. You can you could probably delay and kick the can down the road for what I know. What is it?

Fifteen years. Right. The question we have to ask ourselves is now the time. But eventually time's up. Right. But eventually time is up, right? And the question is now when time is up or are the – is the Obama administration shrewdly saying, no, no, we still have ten more years? I find it hard to believe that now is not the time when the time is up. It just doesn't seem right. My argument against the Obama administration in this deal is they seem to think or i think that they

think that the time is never really up that you keep talking and then you go to vienna and then you go to luzon again and then you have a meeting in paris and then you get the french to come in and then you have somebody else come in and then putin's dead and you have a new leader in russia and he goes and you just keep this you know jaw jaw forever and eventually something else happens and Iran is different and the 30 percent of Iran that's under 21 takes over and they – all they want to do is listen to rock music and wear blue jeans. To use that cliche that people used about the Soviet Union. I think that's – I think 15 years ago, that was a strategy. I think they believe they're going to get an Iranian president who secretly liked to listen to Glenn Miller and drank whiskey. Right, exactly right.

You kick the can down the road until the day you find that it's full of nitroglycerin. Peter, do you agree with Rob or do you think that there's some sort of – well, Rob is saying that he believes that this may be the time. And of course we know that nothing is going to be done on our side. Do you think that Israel is going to do anything? Do I think, oh, I defer to, I certainly defer to Norman on that. He's, when he, a couple of things that are so striking about Norman, one is, as he himself mentioned, he's 85. Good Lord, he writes beautifully. And when he says he's concerned about his children and great – I beg your pardon, his grandchildren and now he has great-grandchildren, many of them are in Israel. So, when we hear him talk about Israelis wanting to fight for themselves, this is not cheap talk about let them do it. They're thousands of miles away.

This is someone whose own flesh and blood would be in any fight. I guess I agree completely with what Rob says, that with this crowd, with John Kerry and Barack Obama, the time is never up. The person I'd watch closely over the next few weeks is Hillary Clinton. Because if Barack Obama brings this deal to some kind of fruition, which he certainly seems determined to do, that's going to cause all kinds of problems in the Democratic Party, at least quite specifically with regard to one of the most solid and reliable components of the Democratic Party, which is Jewish support. then that thing could collapse because she would be signaling to her supporters but also to Democrats in Congress, it's okay, you can take him on on this one, we have to stop this.

That would be very interesting and it may happen. We shall see. It would be very interesting and it gets a little bit more complicated because now Hillary Clinton needs the Obama administration's support. They are the leak machine over at the Obama administration's support, they are the leak machine over at the Obama administration. Every negative Hillary Clinton story comes out of the Obama administration. So she needs their support, at least for the next year, and she needs to nail it down.

And there's no, despite all the happy talk, there's no joy between the Obama White House and the Clinton operation at all. So it's going to get very complicated. theories about Benghazi or any of the other sort of – any of the other things that she signed off on when she's Secretary of State, instead of having him purchase her loyalty, she has purchased his. And it's going to be awfully hard for her to thread that needle, to get out of supporting this Iran deal. I don't see how she does it. What I love is that here we have a country with whom the United States has been really at war for decades. We've just sort of not really acknowledged the fact.

They're pretty insistent about it. A country that weakly chants death to America, even though it's for domestic consumption. And as news reports said that this week it was said a little bit more rote, out of habit, not with real conviction. Even all that, a country that has opposed all of our allies, that has aligned with the worst forces in the planet, bombed Jewish centers all over the world, and has engaged in terrorism on behalf of a messianic, apocalyptic cult. And we can't say for sure whether or not our negotiations about their nuclear frickin' bomb were compromised by information that they got from Hillary Clinton servers or from stuff that Putin sold to them after the white house right systems right we we can't

say that's just one of those things we have to shrug and put off to the table and look at the deal itself it's madness i tell you that's one of the things that hillary clinton has got to got to hope doesn't come out right i mean at this point barack obama's not running for anything except legacy he's just trying to get this thing passed right to have to have a failed a major piece of diplomatic negotiation fail in the united states uh whether it can or can't depending but just to be a replay of salt too is not a good thing for brock obama he needs hillary clinton front and center saying she supports this deal and anything he's got like say you know gosh we're really actually now that we've it's come to

our attention that she used a private server that is uh via way i mean i mean it is if it weren't about a nuclear a mad insane country with a nuclear power i'd be enjoying this because you see two people who richly deserve each other hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, lock in some horrible, terrible relationship where neither one of them can say what he really thinks. But unfortunately, the stakes are a little too high for me to enjoy it fully. To enjoy it fully, but not to take some pleasure from it all the same. Well, look, you have to find some joy where you can find it. I mean you can't always be glum. No, no, you can't. But well, we'll see. The real issue, of course, with reporters is not going to be Hillary Clinton's email server. I think the real issue, and we can see this coming, and we can all see why it's something the nation needs to address,

is whether or not Rand Paul has trouble with female reporters. That's the issue that really ought to be consuming the nation now. And drat the luck, I don't think we got around to that. Shoot. And here we are just talking about his hair like a bunch of silly, you know, appearance-obsessed people that we are. But we got to go. So we remind you that if you are obsessed about your appearance

or just even sort of kind of glancingly interested in it, henries.com is going to help you with that by giving you a shave with no nicks, no scratches, no razor burns, no redness, just the best shave you ever had from German engineered blades from German factories brought right to your house for $10 for the first month. Coupon code Ricochet at Harry's.com, and that's where you get that. Thanks to our guests. Thanks to Claire and Norman. Thanks, Rob. I know you've got to run if you haven't already, and Peter as well. I'm James Lonnox from Drizzly, Minnesota, where the tulips are about to come up. Spring is here. Signs of hope. We'll make this all through together at Ricochet 2.0.

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