The Ricochet Podcast - The Elitists

Episode Date: November 9, 2019

Our deepest apologies for the delay in getting this show out the door. A lot of factors conspired in this show being a day late (but not a dollar short). And let’s also say this up front: for reasons that will become apparent to you when you listen to it, this is one of the quirkiest Ricochet Podcasts we’ve ever done (and not just because of the occasionally iffy audio). OK, enough of the caveats... Source

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Innovate. The IT solutions people. a baby, are in a leg cast or had a lower limb injury, are taking the combined oral contraceptive pill or oral HRT, ask your doctor for a blood clot risk assessment. Visit thrombosis.ie. Well, I am literally driving, so I think that if I, I'll do it, but. Okay, okay, okay. All right. We can just add this in. This is good stuff. This is gold. I'm going to say I would rather be governed by the first 2000 people in the Boston telephone directory than by the 2000 people on the faculty of Harvard University. As government expands, liberty contracts. It's funny, sometimes American journalists talk about how bad a country is because people are lining up for food. That's a good thing.

First of all, I think you missed his time. Please clap. It's the Ricochet Podcast. I'm Rob Long. I'm in the car. Peter Robinson is in a hotel room in Missouri. James Lawless is out. We have David Limbaugh, best-selling author. Joel Stein, best-selling author. We're David Limbaugh, bestselling author. Joel Stein, bestselling author. We're going to talk about elitism and insanity. Let's have ourselves a podcast. Welcome to Ricochet Podcast number 472. This is Peter Robinson. I am sitting in a hotel

room in Fulton, Missouri. More about that in a moment. On the line with me is Rob Long, who is in his car, driving away from New Haven, Connecticut. For what reason were you in New Haven, Rob? Well, I was in New Haven just for a day-long conference yesterday, and then this morning there was a little issue trying to find my car. Trying to find your

car? Not a problem with the engine. You couldn't find it? Yeah, it was kind of a wild night. No, it was in my garage, the hotel garage, so they had a hard time finding it. But now all is well. I'm driving. I'm heading south. Well, what's strange is that we've done 490 of these, and this is the first time I think you've introduced them. Yes, it is, and I feel very uncomfortable. You did a good job.

Thank you, thank you. But wait a moment. Wait a moment. You unable to find your car. Well, something tells me, were you good humored throughout the incident as you were waiting? Yeah. Cause you know, honestly, I, I didn't realize how late it was in the morning and I thought, Oh, I got plenty of time. And then I suddenly looked down and realized, Oh my Lord, this is going to be, you know, going to be a very angry blue Yeti when I tell him. So am I allowed to ask what the conference was about? I will tell you, but I will tell you what it was. But I can't answer any follow-up questions because I don't have the answer to any follow-up

questions. But I went for a day-long sort of open house introduction and one class that I wanted to go to at Yale Divinity School. Oh, I am so... I don't even... I can barely breathe. Yeah. Follow-up questions. Yale, is this the beginning of, are we going to have to call you Father Long? Well, that was required for a while, I've got to say. But you just didn't do it.

You know, I know Yale Divinity School does not produce Catholic priests, but I can tell you there's no one to whom I would rather go to confession. I'm pretty sure that you would be understanding about everything. Show business. Exactly right. Episcopalians, Anglicans, we do, in fact, have a tradition of confession. It's just it's around Lent. It's sort of something that happens Lenten time or before Easter. And, you know, because you save it all up, you know, it could take forever.

You're serious about this? No, not that I, I mean, I'm really, no, I am not going there for ordination, Peter. Even I know that. I could not going there for ordination, Peter. Even I know that there's a limit. I could not be more surprised. If you had told me you just met at the Marine Corps Recruiting Center, I could not be more surprised. This is wonderful, fascinating. Well, you know, when you visit the Marine Corps Recruiting Center, it's to do push-ups. There was one specific class I wanted to sit in on and I did. And it was, um, uh, it was really fantastic to teach a class.

Um, and I know we want to get into all this stuff, but the teacher class, no, we don't. This is more interesting. Some go ahead. It's a, uh, it's, um, it's a sort of a hybrid class. It's, it's a half half school of medicine teaches it with the divinity school. And, um, it's really, really interesting. And, um, I mean, you know really really interesting and um i mean you know these are things that are you know we we all think about what this is sort of introductory theology

or what or religion or no it's really more theology and the idea of um of the things that we don't know about medicine the things we don't know about the body the things that we don't know about the body, the things that we don't know about human life and what life is and what life means to people and how that plays out in a hospital. All right. And now I revert to my original question. Now that I know you were coming from a day at the Yale Divinity School, just what kind of language did you imply while they were looking for you? No doubt you stood in silent prayer. Yeah, well, remember, the Yale Divinity School is not, you know, it's very groovy.

Just keep in mind, it's a groovy spot. All right. All right. Oh, this is, I mean, apart from anything else, I'm thinking to myself, this is a comic vein that we can keep mining for weeks to come. Yeah, just imagine if I'm thinking to myself, this is a comic vein that we can keep mining for weeks to come. Yeah. Just imagine if I really decide to go. Oh, that would be – I would love it for the book you could get out of it, Rob. That's exactly right.

That's exactly right. Well, the Blue Yeti has given us topics to discuss. Do we want to do our usual and ignore all his work? Or shall we discuss some of these topics? That is kind of what we're the best at. But we we discuss some of these topics that is kind of what we're the best at um but we can discuss some of them some of them are sort of interesting yeah oh uh so um mike bloomberg is considering for the 527 how many podcasts have we done 472 that's probably the number of times michael brown is considered running but apparently this

time he's serious because he's having his people talk to the press about it. And he is considering filing for the Alabama primary, which he must do by today, Friday, in order to be on the ballot. What do you make of that? Well, first, before we get started, I should say we should remind people that James Lilacs is usually here and he is not here today. James is like, again, this is one of those days where all three of us had to be somewhere else. And you are holding up the Middle West point of view today. I am in Fulton, Missouri, where I spoke last night at Westminster College, where on March 5th, if I have the date correct, it was 1946, I'm sure about the year, Winston Churchill delivered his sinews of peace speech. That was his title, but we all know it as the Iron Curtain Address. And the good people of

the National Churchill Museum had me come to speak here at Westminster College about Ronald Reagan's speech in 1987 and about the fall of the wall, the 30th anniversary of which is tomorrow. So I am with the good people of Fulton, Missouri, and at dinner last night, I found myself talking to a man who's lived in Fulton a good long time and told me what it was like to watch the open car drive past in which sat President Harry Truman and former Prime Minister Winston Churchill as the motorcade made its way through Fulton, Missouri. He was in the second floor bedroom watching with his grandmother and grandfather. Just wonderful. But what do you think? Amazing. Amazing. But back to Mike Bloomberg. Back to the president. Back to Mike Bloomberg.

Back to the president. Well, look, I mean, you know, for Bloomberg, running for president is sofa change. I mean, I don't think we've had—I mean, there aren't that many people in the world richer than Mike Bloomberg. So there aren't that many people we've ever had a president. I mean, Donald Trump is a pauper compared to Mike Bloomberg. I read in one story last night that Bloomberg's estimated wealth is $45 billion, would they be billion dollars. That is staggering. Staggering, staggering. But here's the good thing about, here's what's good about Mike Bloomberg. He's a very, very smart guy. By all accounts, he's a very decent guy. He's an incredibly successful businessman, obviously. He's also an incredibly successful politician and mayor.

Very, very popular. Very, very popular in New York City. Managed to run after—I mean, it's a hard thing to do, a hard act to play. He ran after the most popular mayor of New York City in modern times, Rudy Giuliani, who was a popular crime-busting mayor to start, and then end up being sort of the hero of 9-11. And people think just as highly of Mike Bloomberg as they do about Rudy Giuliani. I mean, of course, Rudy Giuliani had an interesting third act, but nonetheless. So there's lots to argue for Mike Bloomberg, but people think of this as sort of a delusional run. My argument is that it is delusional, but it's delusional from Democrats. Mike Bloomberg's two central, long-lasting, most interesting, controversial acts as mayor of New

York, one was to introduce the policy of stop, question, and frisk the police. So the police were allowed to stop and question suspicious characters and then frisk them if they wished. This was, in my opinion, and in Mike Bloomberg's continued opinion, a very smart move. It was a way for him, with diminishing budget—you remember he was doing this after the financial collapse of 2007-2008. And, you know, traditionally, New York City Police Department has been funded and fueled by overtime pay. Right. That's how you kind of fatten everybody's paycheck at the end of the day. Give them a lot of overtime. But you can't do that if you're running out of cash. So this was a way to project aggressive policing and give them more powers, but with fewer, you know, make each hour more effective. But he was vilified for it.

It was racial profiling, and it was considered, you know, one step too far in a police state, and it got wrapped up in the Black Lives Matter movement. So he's very unpopular with that wing of the Democratic Party. He's also very unpopular with the teachers' unions. He was very tough on the teachers' unions when he was mayor. He instituted a lot of reform, reform, education reforms while he was mayor, so many so that de Blasio ran on undoing them. So here's a guy who is a law and order mayor who was actively defending what some people consider to be racial profiling. And he also was enraging the teachers union.

What about that sounds like a Democratic Party candidate, a successful nominee? Zero. You know what? I'll see you on Bloomberg's record. I'll see you and raise you on the budget. He did not cut taxes, but he held the line of budget. And he not only committed, but encouraged growth. New York is safe. When he left, its budget was under control. He did not win

against the teachers' unions, but he put stake after stake in the ground. He'd made the arguments. He'd celebrated the private schools up in Harlem in particular. And he had incurred that city has grown. It's alive. And that is, you know, unsocial. He's a man of the left. The remarkable record. I agree with you entirely. He is a moderate Republican.

And, you know, as much as the Republican Party has become maybe the party of special interests, the party of certain far-right elements, that's possible, too. So has the Democratic Party. The idea that Mike Bloomberg—look, if Mike Bloomberg had thrown his hat in the ring at the beginning, he'd be somewhere down around where Marianne Williamson is now. He's too conservative for the Democratic Party. He is also too liberal for the Republican Party. But that is not fixable, right? That's a problem with the voter and the way we do these things. That is not the problem with Mike Bloomberg. I'll grant you every word of that. The idea that he came—well, we'll see. We'll see. Apparently, the idea of the Bloomberg campaign is that Biden occupies the center in the Democratic Party, or the idea of Joe Biden occupies the center in the Democratic Party, and the actuality of Joe Biden is beginning to sink in the polls.

And so Bloomberg is saying to himself, if Biden isn't going to succeed, I'll jump in. That apparently is the thinking. Well, right. Go ahead. I'll jump in. That apparently is the thinking. Well, right. He's surrounded in New York media by a bunch of Democrats who have a fanciful and delusional idea of what it is to be a Democrat. They sit and I know them. They're lovely people. They sit around and they say things like, you know, Bloomberg was so great. If he you know, I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a fiscal conservative, they say. I'm a fiscal conservative.

If Bloomberg's so great, if he ran, he'd win. Well, if Bloomberg ran, he would win amongst moderate Democrats. Right. But they don't vote in the primary. Right. He's much more at home in the Republican Party. It's much more likely that the Republican Party will nominate a moderate than the Democrats moderate a moderate. You mean six years from now? I can't wait to hear what the language that's about to come out of the mouth of the Yale Divinity School student. I can hear them honking. Yeah. I don't know exactly who they're honking at.

They seem to be honking at red light, which is a very New York thing to do. To just express anger that there's a thing in front of you that you can't do anything about. I am not only incapable of an elegant segue, elegant, almost undetectable segue like James Lilac's. I'm incapable of a high spirited, if rather blatant segue such as yours. All I can do is a dull segue. The Blue Yeti says, stop. It's time for us to get to some ad copy. Oh, right.

Well, you know, these things aren't free, Peter. So despite what Elizabeth Warren would have, or frankly, me, I'd like it to be free, too. These things aren't free. We have some very, very fine investors in Ricochet. We also have some wonderful members. We would like you to become a member and invest in Ricochet. You go to Ricochet.com, invest in a membership. It would really mean a lot to us.

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Our thanks to Online Trading Academy for sponsoring the Ricochet podcast. Our next guest is an old friend of mine, Joel Stein. Careful, Peter. He's a liberal, so you're just going to have to sharpen your claws here because we're going to have to get into this. But he's an old friend, and I like him very much, and he's a very funny writer. He's a journalist, author, and cultural pundit. His latest book is called In Defense of Elitism, Why I'm Better Than You and You Are Better Than Someone Who Didn't Buy This Book. He's been a columnist for Time Magazine, Entertainment Weekly, and the LA Times.

You can follow him on Twitter at the Joel Stein. Joel, okay, I read your ridiculous bio. What is a cultural pundit? They're calling you a cultural pundit. What does that mean? I think I became a cultural pundit, uh, about two minutes ago when you called me that, but I think it's because I was on a show called,

I love the eighties for a few minutes in which I had to pretend to know lots of stuff about a decade in which I was pretty young, but I will find it on anything. How long we don't, we've done each other for a long time, right? Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of yours, and I was dating a woman who was a little bit older than me when I first got out of college. And we went to L.A. together, and we went to your very cool apartment by the beach. And you were a writer for Cheers, and I was like, how can this even be real?

I was very excited about it. You and me both. But for as long as we've known each other, you have been a big lefty, liberal, lefty, Tommy lefty, right? So you would describe yourself as far left, extreme left, radical left. Where would you be on that spectrum of unacceptable to every podcast, every Ricochet podcast listener? Well, you know, growing up in New Jersey, I thought I was pretty far like libertarian-ish left. But then I came to the bluest part of the world in Los Angeles, where literally a neighbor

asked another neighbor if I was a Republican. So I think I've moved very, very far to the set. Trump has also moved me to the center. So let me ask you this. When we hear the phrase like defensive elitism and elites, if I'm a conservative, I naturally feel like you're not talking about me, but you kind of are, right? Or aren't you? Oh, yeah. No, there's a lot of Bill Kristol and Tom Nichols and the meeting of the concerned in this book, for sure. All right. Well, so then me reading between the lines, what you're really talking about is liberal Republicans or anti-Trump Republicans, right? I mean, I'm trying to drill down here and figure out where I fit on this.

I mean, I suspect, I think I know, I suspect you know where I fit on this. I mean, I suspect, I think I know, I expect you, you know where I fit, but well, uh, I don't really want to be in the elite. If the elite is this kind of New Yorker reading, um, my preferred pronouns kind of elite, right? I mean, that doesn't sound right. Or is it? Yeah. So you don't like the smugness. You don't like me telling you not to say tranny the same way I'm telling you not to drink Oki Chardonnays, right? I get that. And I think we should tone down the smugness. And that's a big argument in my book.

The part you also might not like is I know you start the show with this quote from William Buckley that I hate, even though I like Buckley. That quote that I feel is so phony about wanting 2,000 people in Boston to run the country instead of 2,000 people from Harvard, which he says in this mid-Atlantic accent. And come on, if 2,000 people from the Boston phone book ran society, we'd be playing like drinking games where we punch each other in the neck every time someone said an adverb. So I find that kind of populism fake and dangerous. And that's what I'm arguing against in the book is populism.

Right. But I mean, OK, so here's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to figure out a way in which in which you would argue against left wing populism. But, but who would that be? Oh, Bernie, Elizabeth, any kind of tribal politics, the cancel culture, all of that I take on in the book, too. So in the book, I spent a week in the county and the country, which are the highest percentage of Trump voters, to ask them why they hate me. But then I hung out with, you know, extreme liberals in my neighborhood and some liberal populists who also drive me crazy. And do they hate you? You know, everyone hates me, so it's hard for me to gauge. But you guys know the people in this panhandle of Texas, this county, Roberts County, completely white, completely Christian.

I went to church with them. I went to Bible study. And they still, literally, the First Baptist Church of Miami has a mimeograph paper that they send out. They hand out to everyone before services. And they pray. There's a list of people, like 10 people, they pray for the president, you know, our troops. And there's only one person besides those two that are on every week for two years. And it's me. So they were really, really nice and kind to me. So no, I don't think they totally hated me. They were worried about me, but they didn't hate me.

Yeah. Well, I mean, we were all worried about you uh um i don't know i mean this is a side note but i mean you you know it's part of the uh the anglican or episcopalian tradition i mean the syria the actual official institution of the church to pray for the president united states i mean even in the even in crack a crackpot progressive uh super left-wing episcopalian churches of which all of them—describes all of them, according to Peter Robinson, that's definitely part of the deal. Let me ask you this. All right, so here's the sort of serious question about the elite, because we all do believe we kind of know a little bit more than our neighbor and know a little bit more. And boy, you know, if you let me run it, I would run it right. How do you, if I'm a conservative, I kind of know that even if you're going to be fair and even-handed in your book, as this plays out, it will not be fair and even-handed. You know,

people have asked me for years, what's it like to be a Republican in Hollywood? And I can tell you that it's actually not that hard. Hollywood is a pretty tolerant place. I would much rather be a Republican in Hollywood and have a career would much rather be a Republican in Hollywood and have a career than I would be a Republican in the English department at Harvard University, where I probably would not have a career. So it's the elites that tend to hire only their own and their own tend to be only liberal. I mean, so that's so if there's an argument against elitism, isn't it almost all isn't it by definition going to come from the right? Yeah. But I think that's why part of the reason we're seeing this kind of far right

populist movement and the left populist movement, which is growing, is also critical of what I would call the elite. Like Bernie wants to destroy me as much as people on the right. So I see this populism rising from both places. You know, Bernie wants to put a farmer on the federal board of governors, you know, which would mean we wouldn't eat for two reasons. So no, I think it's coming, you know, it's definitely coming harder on the right, especially, you know, since you have all these far right candidates winning, you know, Trump and all of Europe. But I do think it's coming from the left as well. So Joel, Peter here. So I'm just trying to work out your argument. You're in favor of elitism. So in your ideal world, you'd flip Bill Buckley's argument,

and you'd rather be ruled by the faculty of Harvard University? In other words, your argument is technocratic, educated, technocratic, seemingly apolitical, but in fact, lefty people should run things. That can't be what you're arguing. Oh, that's totally what I'm arguing. Oh, it is. Yeah. We have an honest man here. All right. Well, I don't know. I look at what's happened

over the last three years when we pick people with no experience and let them run large organizations within our government. And I look at what happens when people read. In the last three years, the economy has, for example, we've had a string of very accomplished, you may disagree with their judicial philosophy, but really accomplished judges appointed to the federal bench, including the Supreme Court. Last three years has been OK by my lights. Yeah, I think it's not OK if you're in Syria and you have a commander in chief who thinks he knows more than all the generals. I think it's not OK if you... What happened in Syria? What's happening in Syria now? What's happening in the world now, I think, is that America has taken a step back and is letting China and Russia and a lot of autocrats...

President Trump has sent troops to Poland as part of NATO exercises. That's something no president has done in many, many years. We have troops on the border of NATO exercises. That's something no president has done in many, many years. We have troops on the border of Russia itself. That's not a step back. I sort of like the populist side, Joel. You've got to smack me down here. I will smack you down by giving you a ticket to Venezuela. We could see what lowering interest rates to zero causes that Trump wants to do, I will send you to- In fact, the inflation rate in Venezuela is essentially infinite. The currency has become worthless. Yeah.

That's not what Donald Trump wants to do. Trump wants to bring our interest rates as low as he possibly can to give people free money in the moment. I think populism is always about giving the majority what they want in the moment and let human rights and minorities be damned. And if you want to go to Poland and, you know, go out with your gay boyfriend, good luck. I just don't, I see pop, populism does not have a really great history in the world. Like when you kill all the intellectuals, how many Nobel Prizes have been won by people

in Cambodia? I mean, I know it's a nice place to visit and the people are kind, so maybe it's a bad example. But I still don't know if that's the kind of society I want to live in. Right. OK, so let me jump in here because this is sort of interesting. I mean, because I think Venezuela is a perfectly good example. I think that's an example.

But you seem to be making my argument, which is the actual policies that Chavez imposed in Venezuela seem to come directly from the Harvard political science faculty. Not the economics department. Well, yeah, of course the economics department, collective economics, that kind of thing. I mean, most economists at Harvard and undergraduate courses are, at the very least, socialist, at the very most, redistributive, just like Chavez. I do not think, and I don't know enough about this, so I'm going to stop here, because that's part of being elite, is knowing when they don't know something. But I don't think your average Harvard economist is going to say we should bring interest rates to zero. I mean, I know. Yeah, I know. I understand that they don't want the state. They don't believe that will happen. What they think will happen is

that in a collectivist economy, everyone will be happy and the interest rates will be non-usurious and set by a committee of, frankly, of the very farmers that you think will ruin everything. I mean, the Harvard economists are Keynesians. They're not MMFs. Like, they don't, they're basic Keynesians who, you know, maybe are more socialist than my taste or yours, but they're not Bernie Sanders. I'm not sure that's true, but go ahead.

Joel, Peter here again. The name of the book is In Defense of Elitism, Why I'm Better Than You, and You Are Better Than Someone Who Didn't Buy This Book. And now give me a good, tight summary statement. Kick Robin Me in the teeth and tell us why you are. Give us your summary defense of elites. Well, you know it's a book that that gets angry at people who read one one web md article and then argue with their doctor uh claiming they know more you did you did just you did just kick the two of us yeah that's robin me for sure and it's the people who yell at their TV utterly convinced that they would do a better job coaching an NFL team than the actual coach. So yeah, I feel like...

I've heard Rob yell at his TV, but only because he was convinced he could have written a better script. Well, that I'm fine with. So let me... Because we've known you a long time, your friend, I want you to sell some books to this audience. Yeah. So help me reassure people that picking up this book is not, I'm not going to be wading through a bunch of chapters about how dumb I am and how bad I am just to get to some stray sideswipes at Elizabeth Warren.

No, no, it's not quite as political as you fear. And I do spend some time talking to Bill Kristol and Tom Nichols and a bunch of conservatives who are, you know, never Trumper, very, very concerned about what's going on. And I find myself at one with them more than I do with the people on my block who believe that these people that I meet in Texas are the devil that need to be exterminated. Right, right, right. Yeah. No, I'm arguing for a very centrist solution to what I fear is a huge populist problem. And I guess it all depends on whether you sort of your self-vanity in your self-vanity, you include yourself in the elite

or if you include yourself, which I think is equally in many ways, equally vain to include yourself in the populist rabble. It all depends on what part you want to play in national politics, right? Yeah. So I interviewed populist elites. I spent some time with Tucker Carlson, who I once danced the quick step with. And then I spent some time with Scott Adams, the guy who created Dilbert and has now become a big Trump supporter. And I tried to just get in their head of how they kind of switched teams and became hardcore populace in the case of Scott Adams who believe in conspiracy theories and doesn't think truth matters and all the things that truly scare me. And I spend time with people who create fake news, both from the left and

actually they're both guys who kind of are from the left who do it for fun and to kind of talk about what's crumbling out there and what I'm afraid of. And then I create, I create some fake news myself. Okay, great. Joel, Joel, Peter here. Thank you for joining us. The book again is in defense of elitism. Why I'm better than you. I don't know whether you're better than me, but I'm sure you're better than Rob. Why I'm better than you, better than someone who didn't buy this book. Joel, thanks. Thank you guys for having me on and doing what you do. That was really fascinating. And I know I'm sure there are people who have thrown their phones against the wall, but it's sort of interesting. I mean, look, I like to celebrate any time one of

my liberal, lefty, liberal friends, I always use all those words when I describe Joel, says things like, man, you know, people think I'm a Republican because they say something reasonable. I feel like we need to. It's positive reinforcement. Yeah. OK. All right.

All right. All right. I get positive reinforcement. And also, I think it's sort of interesting. You know, I am always interested in what people, normal people in the center, even if they're in the center left, think about politics, because eventually to win, you have to get the people on the center version of your side to vote for you. That's how it has to happen to have any real political power. And of course, you also want to keep everything about yourself that's personal, private and safe. And that is why we are pleased.

It's the worst segue ever, but it's a great product. No, it's better than I would have done. We missed James. We stipulate that, but that was better than I had done. Thank you. That is why we are pleased to have sponsors of the podcast, LifeLock. You may have heard about a VPN that was recently breached. Hackers compromised the very thing that Wi-Fi users relied on to help keep them keep... Well, I'll try it again. Three, two, one. You may have heard about a VPN that was recently breached. Hackers compromised the very thing that Wi-Fi users relied on to help keep them keep, well, try it again. Three, two, one. You may have heard about a VPN that was recently breached. Hackers compromised the very thing that Wi-Fi users relied on to keep them private online. Happens all the time. It's in the news. There's a breach here. There's a breach there. People's private and personal financial stuff is all over the web. Thankfully, there's a VPN, a virtual private network. That's what that stands for, Peter. I know you don't know, so I'm telling you.

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we're, we just, everybody needs it. That's just all there is to it. Thank you, Rob. Joining us now, David Limbaugh, the inimitable, the ineffable, David's a lawyer, a syndicated columnist, a political commentator, and the author of, I love you, David, but I hate it when I have to say this. The author of seven New York Times bestsellers, including his latest book, the subtly titled Guilty by Reason of Insanity. Why the Democrats Must Not Win. Ladies and gentlemen, L. Rushbro. David, welcome. Hey, Peter.

Thanks for having me. Would you hate it even more if you had to say there were 10 New York Times bestsellers, which is actually the fact? Oh, Rob, talk to him. I'm going to go slow. It's fine. It's what we do in Hollywood when somebody has more awards or success than we do. We tend to like – we try to run down what – you know what? The New York Times bestseller was not what it used to be.

That's what I'm saying. Oh, you know, pretty much anybody can get an Oscar. You know, these days they just hand them out like candy. David, just to clarify, you think the Democratic Party is insane, so they should not win. But but can't they? Well, I actually think insane in the title is a euphemism for something worse, but I didn't come up with the title. My evil authoritarian publisher did, and I went along with it reluctantly because they have the big bucks. And no, I just think their ideas are indefensibly extreme and demonstrably, objectively crazy. Doesn't mean they're crazy, except if you extrapolated it out, you'd have to say your buddies, half of my law partners, for example, all of whom at the national level will be supporting these crazy ideas such as abortion on demand beyond the point of birth.

What did you ask me? You know, I hate to be jammed in by questions in interviews. I prefer streamed consciousness. Yeah, well, me too. I apologize. But give me a couple. So one question is, you know, look, Tuesday night was election night. And we can all look at look at the tea leaves for one night and see things we want to see.

But it does seem like the trend and this would not be surprising, but the trend is, you know, in the Democrats favor. At some point, we're going to have to persuade people who don't agree with conservative issues to agree with them. How are we going to do that? By selling my book. That's exactly the point of this book, is to provide information, ammunition, fodder for people like us who want to go out. Maybe not you, Rob, you flaming liberal. Who want to go out and proselytize and evangelize and tell them they've been deceived by all these seductive lies the left offers. I don't have any illusions that my book is going to change the world, but that is the idea that I go into these various issues, abortion, immigration, race, identity politics, socialism, and all that, and give a bunch of examples and anecdotes. But beyond that, I do a deep dive into the philosophical underpinnings of their ideology, their ideas.

And so, no, I agree with you. We have a tough, tough time. They have captured the Utes, and they've convinced the Utes that socialism is the way to go, although the accompanying polls are encouraging because they show that the Utes don't understand what socialism is, even though they're for it. Right. Hey, David, David Peters, let's do a lightning round, but by which I mean, truly constrain yourself, if you possibly can, to relatively brief answers. Lightning round. I'll name a name. You give me what you think of him.

Joe Biden. Getting feeble. And he's a demagogue and a buffoon. But he's safer to the Democrats than all these other crazies. Pete Buttigieg. He's the young, reasonable one, David. He's very impressive on the surface. But he's also a radical. Sounds

very good. Won't be electable yet. Four more years, this crazy keeps going. You never know. Okay. And I think Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, those are such fat targets for you. We'll set them aside. I don't want to make things easy for you. Donald Trump at this very moment. I'm pretty pleased with Trump. You are. Yeah. Or so every day because the left is getting crazier. Trump is kind of enjoying giving it back to him. He's enjoying it, I think. So I enjoy it. All right. Let's go into it a little bit then, because you're not even gritting your teeth. You're saying he pleases me. What about that call to the Ukrainian president? Would you not agree with the Wall Street Journal that that was at least poor judgment?

Not impeachable, but poor judgment? I didn't say everything about Trump pleases me, but I started off being a Trump skeptic. I was a true supporter. And I didn't believe everything about Trump pleases me, but I started off being a Trump skeptic. I was a true supporter. And I didn't believe he was that conservative. He has been very conservative in office, and I've enjoyed immensely the policies he's implemented and how he's been unapologetic to go against the establishment. But the way I look at this Ukraine thing is, in the first place, they've been after him. They view him as a walking crime, high crime and misdemeanor.

And they've been looking conspiratorially for an excuse to impeach him and oust him. And this Ukraine thing, Trump, it doesn't bother me that much in an ethical way because Trump didn't even think he was doing anything wrong. He said what he said in front of a bunch of people. He's unorthodox. He's unschooled in politics. He didn't even know it's improper to do it. He's so frustrated with people being after him and so unfairly that he's saying, can't we investigate these people who are doing this to me? I don't think it was a quid pro quo in Trump's mind. If it even got close to that, it was, let's dangle this and pretend it's

a quid. We would never. I don't know. People are going to say I'm a Trump apologist. My point is, I don't think he didn't. The Ukrainians didn't think it was conditional. I don't think Trump was serious that it was. I don't think it was quid pro quo.

Even if it was, it wasn't impeachable. But I'm not defending. I'm a law and order guy. I'm a rule of law person. I just, compared to what we're dealing with, it isn't that big of a deal to me. Yeah. Okay. So here's what I'm trying to get at, David. There are people, I think I fall in this camp myself most of the time, where the person of Donald Trump, the comportment of Donald Trump, just very, very hard to take. But those people nevertheless

support his policies. You understand that kind of person. And I'm trying to figure out which kind you are. Then there are people who say, well, no, many of Trump's faults, what ordinarily we would view as faults in a president and even faults that we would try to drum out of our own children as we were raising them. But at this moment in American history, what Washington needs is somebody who doesn't know exactly what he's doing, who asks questions that go right to the premises. Why are we in Syria? Why are we in South Korea? How come the budget is what it is and is willing to break some China in the China shop? Are you that kind of person who's actually pro-Trump personally?

You've already said, yes, he has bad judgment. There are bits of it that don't. But you still like the – you think we need him. Not just his policies, but him. In this peculiar point in our history, I do actually think we do. And I'm not saying he has bad judgment. In fact, he has pretty good instincts, even about some things that I misjudged him on. But I used to look at him, for example, when he accused Ted Cruz's dad of assassinating John F. Kennedy.

It infuriated me. But now I see Trump through a different perspective. And this, by the way, this is, as a never-Trumpers think, it's all partisan, it's all the pundits who have sided with Trump are doing it out of self-interest. They really don't understand us if that's what they believe, because that has nothing to do with it. I am looking at this solely through the lens of what is best for America, culturally and politically. And I think Trump's refusal to knuckle under to this insanity, this political correctness, which has hamstrung all of us, including many polite conservatives, from saying what they really believe about reality, causing us to hold

up four fingers and claiming it's five, because the oppressive political correctness demands that we affirm things that are not true. I love that Trump has this simplicity of thinking and speech in that sense, and will just stand up against it and make fun of liberals who try, or progressives, who try to shame him about things that he shouldn't be shamed about. Yeah. I have one more question for you, and then I want Rob to—I know Rob wants to come in. Here's the question. Democrats have control of the House. As far as I can tell, people who study politics in detail expect them to retain control next year. And then there's—we just saw that the Democratic candidate for governor won in Kentucky the other day, defeating, I think, a very attractive—Matt Bevin, a very attractive, very successful Republican governor, in my opinion.

You live in the middle of the country. You may know more about Kentucky than I do. In the Senate, Democrats only need to defend next year one vulnerable seat. Republicans need to defend what looks like five vulnerable seats. So here's the way it shapes up. Democrats keep the House. White House, who knows? But all the polls show Donald Trump losing to nearly every Democratic challenger you care to name.

As they did last time. Okay, that's what I'm coming to. And in the Senate, the Democrats only need to flip three seats, and we could live in a different country. How worried are you? Worried enough to have written that book on this very theme. And I do want to, before I answer this, I want to go back and say one thing, because people are going to think of my answer as flip and apologetic for Trump, and partisan, don't care about what he does. That's not it. But look at what really happens. They have accused Trump of being a Nazi and all kinds of terrible things. They have savaged him way worse than he's done anything to them.

He has enacted policies that are beneficial for America. He's pro-America. Look at the big picture. Look at what matters most. I don't care that he doesn't speak in polite, elitist, beltway speech. I don't care because he's doing a lot of good. These never-Trumpers who hate him are willing to vote in Democrats who will kill babies in the womb all the way up to the point of birth and beyond, who will invoke socialism full bore, who have open borders policy, which would cause an influx of people into this country that would destroy our national sovereignty, who want to play racial politics, sex politics, gender politics, who want to say that we can't determine one's gender by biological birth, but how they arbitrarily

identify. That kind of insanity is what never Trumpers are advocating. And I'll be damned if I'm going to apologize for supporting him. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. But David, how do you really feel, though? Kind of weasel wording it here. Hey, so I totally understand that. I guess here's where I land up.

We have President X. We don't have to give him his Trump. Just the numbers are enough. Who lost the popular vote by a whole lot of votes. Three million votes is a lot of votes. But I'm not litigating his win. I'm just saying that that is an important number for a president who got in to understand. About 78,000, 79,000 votes across three states were important for him, and that got him into

the White House. The goal for a president, President X, with those numbers is expand your base. Expand the number of people who are going to vote for you. Expand the number of people in all those states who think you're great. He seems to be doing the opposite. And while he's doing the opposite, Trump supporters seem to be cheering him. And they say things like, and I totally get it. I mean, I feel this in myself. I love the way he takes on the left.

I love the way he takes on the end. I love that. He's funny and fun and charming, and he's a, and for us, and he's a cheerleader. And we, and we love, but that seems to me to be a bad pattern to get into. All he's doing is becoming less popular with the people. We may not like it. I may not like the people in the center. I may not like the center left. I may not like people go, well, you know, I'm a Democrat. But in order to win and be an effective president, don't I need them to vote for me? Well, if you look at the swing states, he is winning.

And that's what really matters if we're looking at pragmatics. I was just looking at polls the other day. But how is he going to be anything other than he is? The thing about Trump is he's authentic. Everybody says he's dishonest, a liar, perpetual, inveterate, chronic liar. But Trump is transparent in one sense. He's more honest than any of us because he doesn't know how to talk in code. He's just open about everything and just says what's on the top of his mind.

And he would never be able to pull off an acting role, pretending he's somebody that he's not. And he would also turn the base off. I think he's got to be himself, even if you deem that it's not strategically wise. We're thinking like politicians here. We've got to massage ourselves. We've got to pretend to be one way. I'm going to tell you, the fact that he is the way he is is what's energized the base and caused rallies to explode and overflow everywhere he goes. And so I just don't believe the polls to the extent that – well, I'm just not as concerned as you would say. All right. Then why write the book then?

I mean my counterargument, then why write the book if it's going to be a cakewalk, if it's going to be not that – Hold on. I mean, my my my counterargument, then why write the book if it's going to be a cakewalk? It's going to be not that if he doesn't have to expand his base. If we're looking at a replay of 2016, what's the what's the big alarm? Well, the first place the left is indefatigable. They're never they're tireless 24 seven. This book is evergreen. We could defeat the left 80 percent to 20 percent, and they're going to wake up and go after us every second of the day. There was an article in Real Clear Politics today about

grassroots activists, and they're going to continue to this resistance beyond Trump. But I'm not smug or complacent about Trump. I have no idea if he'll win. That's not what I mean. I'm saying he's got to do the thing that will make him most electable, and that is continuing to be himself. We still may lose. I'm not a fool. I mean, of course, we have an uphill battle. I don't have any idea. All I do know is if we do lose, we are so screwed. Why is Peter even asking me the question? Peter's nervous, too. He knows. I know I am. I really am. Yeah. And our kids, Peter, our kids will not live in America that we were bequeathed by our parents if the Democrats get control of the main political branches in 2020.

That's, yeah, 2020. No, I couldn't. I agree. As usual, David, one of the reasons I enjoy you, first of all, you're an irresistible human being. And I hate you because of all these bestsellers. But I still love you because you're right every time you open your mouth. The book is called Guilty by Reason of Insanity, Why the Democrats Must Not Win.

I have a closing question for you. I am recording this in Fulton, Missouri, your home state. Wow. I think you're just Cape Girardeau South, isn't it, of Fulton? Yes. I don't know my— Three and a half hours. So here's my question.

It's a non-Trump question, but it's a question about the future of conservatism. What do you make of Missouri's new senator, Josh Hawley? I love him. He was a law professor at my alma mater, Mizzou, and a brilliant conservative. His wife's a brilliant conservative, originalist, judicial restraint, strong, strong conservative. I like him a lot. If he does something I don't like, I won't like him on that issue, but he's a great guy. I'm kidding. Great guy. Okay. David, thank you so much. Good luck with your book as if you needed it.

No, I do. By the way, the only reason I have bestsellers is because I have a bunch of friends in high places, Russ, Sean, Mark. And otherwise, I wouldn't have a chance. I realize that. And I'm sorry to be emotional when I talk about how extreme the party is. But when I think about it, I can't. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What are you talking about?

Rush, Sean? Who are they? We're the ones who sell your books, baby. Well, you too. I want to boost you up too much. Well, thank you. Well, you too. I just remember I don't want to boost you up too much. Well, thank you. David, thank you. Thanks for having me, you guys.

All right. Give our love to Cape Girardeau. I will. That's the thing about David. He's just shy and retiring. Exactly. He's like a small-town bank manager.

Mousy. Solid as a rock. But I always love having David on because it causes me anguish because there's a lot that he says that I agree with. But speaking of small-town business managers, Peter, there aren't that many of them left anymore. And so where do you go if you want a good deal on your loans? Well, I'll tell you. You go to Lending Club.

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And now we have a late-breaking edition. We have James Lilacs on the road. James with his post of the week. James, how are you? I'm my usual peripatetic self, it seems, since a number of times we've been together recently has been eclipsed by the number of times I've been doing something else. At least the previous times it was... If that's for me, I'm free to talk. No, it's fine. This time I am in Rochester, Minnesota, right across from the Mayo Clinic. Not going to the Mayo Clinic, I'm happy to say, but I'm waiting for my room to be let at the Koehler Grand Hotel.

Oh, nice. here at the local college this evening about Peg Lynch and her starting that sitcom thing that Rob himself has been so adept at making a living from. So that's where I am. And I wish I could be with you guys, but alas, I've been on the road and I'm here. And so I have a post of the week, insert theme song right here. And let me recall what it was that I did. Oh, yes. Right, right, right, right. Well, we have at Ricochet, as we know, zesty conversations about the president. And over the years, positions have hardened, you might say, sort of debating the same issues over and over again. But what I love about Ricochet is that there's always continued enthusiasm for the fight. We don't tire of it, and we like to have at it. So in one sense, this might be the most typical Ricochet post, but I like to highlight it

because it just shows who we are. Gary Robbins, who has an avatar of Sonny Ronald Reagan, put up a post that was, shall we say, not praising President Trump, saying that we lose again. You know, again, with Trump, we have lost. And he goes down the recent election results and chews them through his analysis. And all I had to do to look at that when I saw the first co-op was to know that there would be 168 posts within X number of hours because people wanted to talk about this. And it's not what I love about it is that it's just it's illustrative of the community

that it's a place where people can actually, from the right, address this issue within the terms of the Code of Conduct. And the Post of the Week turns out to be something that's completely normal on Ricochet. It's not some wild thing that somebody pulled out of the air. It's just who we are. And so that's the one that I wanted to do. And there were so many other good ones that I thought of doing as well. But this one is so normal for us that I thought, there's your post of the week. It is funny.

Occasionally those conversations go off the rails, but often they're just sort of respectful, thoughtful, I don't know, people sorting it out, which is always gratifying because this is a topic that does pull people off the rails. People sorting it out would have been a good name for the site if it weren't too many syllables. Really catchy. It also sounds with the British as well. But the other part of it is that you need to be reminded of the arguments of the other side. Even if you're not going to adopt them yourself, the arguments of the other side are sometimes arguments on our side that are the other side. And so I like to be able to hear what people who are, you know, not exactly where I am feel the conviction.

So there you have it. It is so cold here. It is so unbelievably cold in this part of the world right now that I am actually, and being you guys, if you guys could just talk a little, perhaps I could bask in the warmth reflected. Could warm, could warm you with our voices.

Oh, Lord, it's just god forsaken this so we will warm you uh with the ricochet poll question or i would warm you with that but i haven't quite uh written it out yet so it's a ricochet poll question will be uh up uh in a hour or two as soon as, certainly by the time you hear this podcast. And I'm not quite sure yet which part of the Ricochet member psyche I want to probe. So let me just get this straight. Let me just get this straight, Rob Long. I moved heaven and earth frantically trying to connect

to the Kalo Grand Hotel Wi-Fi system so I can get here and do something that I sent to Scott last night. I've been on the road. I've been driving. It's cold. You sitting there brushing off the croissant crumbs from your silk dressing gown in Gotham or wherever you happen to be can't be arsed to figure out a simple poll question given,

oh, I don't know, seven days advance notice. James, James, you don't understand. Rob attended a seminar yesterday at the Yale Divinity School. He is in a different place from me. He's no longer. This is not a working journalist. He must reflect and meditate and bring this down from the higher to us. And that can't be done just when you want it done.

You have to wait for. Go ahead. Yes. I got it. I got it. I got you. He's wearing a white robe. He's got a rough rope knotted around his waist in a Benedictine fashion.

He's wearing a tonsure and he's a complete, he's brother Rob now. He's truly brother Rob. Brother Rob. Wow. It's amazing. It's like, it's like you guys are watching me right now. Well, Skype does have that camera function, you know. Listen, we have to go have a piece of a bit of food, and we have a technical rehearsal.

And my co-host is dying, so we want to get this show before she utterly expires. I have to go. So I wish you all well. We'll see you all in the comments at Ricochet, and I will be back with you all next Friday. Thank you. Have a wonderful concert, James. Thank you. Bye.

That was like a little apparition itself, wasn't it? Tomorrow, Rob Long, it will have been 30 years to the day since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Brother Rob, where were you? What do you remember? I remember, it's funny because it's hard for me to remember now exactly what it was, but as I'm remembering it, it was a thing that took place over time. It was in Los Angeles. I was, uh, not yet working. I was still a film student and it was one of the two events, uh, along with Tiananmen square, um, that, that seemed to take place over several days.

And in the kind of an astonishment that nobody knew what it all meant, it was probably some of the most momentous sort of world historical event, certainly the fall of the Berlin Wall, that we saw televised in real time. And so there was a kind of a baffled from both sides. The Soviets did not really know what this meant. Certainly many of the East Germans had no idea what this meant. The people in the Soviet bloc had no idea what this meant. But no one had the time to sort it out, think about it to have a policy for it because by the time but when the first when the first stone fell we were watching it live on

tv and i think that's i i think it's one of it's it's a really special moment i don't think there was a moment like that but we'd seen televised events before but i don't think we had seen something happen the way life and change really happen in real, in real life, which is over time, sometimes over days or weeks or hours, but it's not just all at once. And I think that was what, that's what I really take away from that moment, which I don't even think, I don't even think the Soviets had a plan. No, no, no. Well, we know that because nobody had a plan. Nobody knew it was going to happen because it happened by accident.

Right. October 1989, protests begin in East Germany. Gorbachev seems to have signaled that whatever happened, the East Germans were on their own. He wasn't going to send in the Red Army. Protests begin. They grow and grow and grow. The East German Politburo meets an emergency session, and on November 9th, a member of the Politburo, the press conference, and he bungles an announcement. One of the new measures was to

try to quell the protesters by easing at some future date, in some complicated way, immigration restrictions. And he conveyed the impression, mistakenly, that all border controls would be lifted. And a member of the press said they were astounded. And they said, wait, are you sure you mean that? Yes, I do. And he was wrong. But thousands of East Berliners began streaming to the wall. The guards telephoned their superiors. Nobody knew what was happening. One guard opened his gate. All the other guards opened their gates, and it had happened. And this week, I'm traveling from place to place because I won't be around for the 60th anniversary. And there are various conferences taking place.

I'm speaking, as we mentioned earlier, from Fulton, Missouri. But the day before yesterday, I was in Washington, and Marlon Fitzwater, who was George H.W. Bush's president, then press secretary, told us the story. Somebody handed him an AP or UPI report, which incidentally, the National Security Council staff had stamped confidential, even though it had moved across wires to every newspaper in America. He took it into the president, and they had to think through on the spot, how was the president of the United States going to respond? The president said call of state, called him over, the national security director, and the four of them talked about it for a while. And then they brought the press pool right into the Oval Office. within half an hour or 40 minutes of the president's learning what happened. Why?

Because of the point you made. The world was already watching it happen in real time. And the president of the United States had to respond. It was just an astonishing thing. And just as a side note, what's most interesting about the culture of East Germany, remember, it was the most surveilled and spied upon culture, auto-spied upon culture in the history of Earth, really. and neighbors reporting on neighbors and brothers reporting on brothers and this complicated system of blackmail and compromise and files. And the Stasi, which is the secret, the state security police, that's what they were supposed to do, to guard state security. They knew everything you were thinking and watching and reading. And they knew everything except the one

thing they needed to know, which was that the wall was going to come down. And it's just the irony of spending all that effort and time and money and all of those, all the technology and all that very, very valuable manpower spying on each other to make sure that the state would be secure and then missing the biggest story of your life, which was the state was going to fall in a matter of hours without a shot being fired. Exactly. And 30 years ago yesterday, it has to be said, there was only one nation across the 45 years of the Cold War, from Harry Truman to President Reagan and George H.W. Bush, that was really indispensable, that had the economy to support the military, to stand up

to the Soviet Union, and had the will to deploy it. And it just has to be said that despite terrible mistakes, Vietnam, on and on, the country stood for one cause for 45 years, the cause of democracy and liberty, and we won. We won. All right, Rob. You may now finish your drive home. This podcast was brought to you by online trading company Club and LifeLock. Please support them for supporting us. And if you enjoyed this show, leave a review on iTunes.

Those reviews help. They allow new listeners to discover us, and that keeps the show going. See you in the comments, everybody. Rob, next week. Next week, Peter. We'll be right back. Ricochet. Tear down this wall. Join the conversation. See you next week. You're breathing my ear You can bend me, you can break me But you better stay clear The walls come tumbling down

And the walls come crumbling, crumbling And the walls come tumbling, tumbling Crumbling, tumbling down What was that? Well, you can ignore that. That was just my return. But it sounds pretty good from my end, right? I mean, I sound pretty good, right?

You're terrific, actually. I don't know what... That's amazing. Thank you. Before I go further, Scott, I hate to tell you this. I'm missing every other word of Peter's. Well, I didn't say everything about him, please me Okay

What was that? Sorry Sorry, do it again Sorry, I got off the rails there No, good, you kidding me? David, you're spectacular We just love it No, I'm not, I'm not done with a turn

You have to give me one second You gotta give me one second here Love it. We just love it. No, I'm not. I'm not done with a turn. You have to give me one second. You got to give me one second here. You see how the, how the session at Yale divinity school has transformed. Yes. All right. Great. Stitch that together.