The Ricochet Podcast - There's No Debate

Episode Date: September 18, 2015

Debate number two is in the history books now, and to help us parse all the performances we call on two experts: Michael Barone and Rick Wilson. Who won, who lost, who scored and who fumbled? All questions answered within. Also, whither Scott Walker? And, We’re Number 1! Music from this week’s episode: King For a Day by XTC The opening sequence for the Ricochet Podcast was composed and produced by... Source

activate program more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism well I'm not a crook I'll never tell a lie but I am NOT a bully Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall it's the ricochet podcast with Peter Robinson John Gabriel is sitting in for Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. It's the Ricochet Podcast with Peter Robinson. John Gabriel is sitting in for Rob Long. I'm James Lilacs and our guests today, Michael Barone and Rick Wilson. Say no more. Let's have ourselves a podcast.

There you go again. Yeah, yeah. It's the Ricochet Podcast number 275. Can I just say, I don't know why John Gabriel is on this podcast. I mean, Newsmax did a piece, a great piece about us. We're great. And John wasn't even mentioned. He's, what, 1% in the polls.

Rob Long isn't with us. And it's not surprising to me at all. The guy can't even buy socks. Anyway, I'm James Lilacs. I'm a famous author. I've written a lot of books. People love me. People love my work. I'm very important.

And people say I can't talk about anybody except myself. I like talking about myself. Myself is interesting. It's a good word. It's a word like me. It's a word like I. It's a word like moi. That's a little French there, I know.

I love the French. They're great with food. Not so good with Hitler. I would have sat down with Hitler. I would have talked with Hitler. We would have figured something out. I would have told Hitler not to nationalize those plants. You got a great thing going there. Let them do

what they're doing. When they make the steel, the steel is great for the razors. I love to shave. I love to look at my face in the mirror and shave my face. And when I do, I use Harry's. That's why I'm happy. Harry's, it's a great brand. It's a fabulous brand. Wonderful people. Overpaying for drugstore razor blades, I didn't get as rich as I did by

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Unbelievable. Well, I can't do the voice yet, but I can do the faces. I've been pulling the most extraordinary series of faces here. And one of those faces would be a face of shock and dismay to think that anybody actually had let their Ricochet membership lapse. We don't want that to happen. Listen, if Rob was here, he would tell you what? He would tell you that if you were a previous member, you could go to ricochet.com slash membership and use the coupon code rejoin, not rejoin as in Gabriel, but rejoin, and you'll get two months free. Now, podcast listeners, you'll get 30 days free of Ricochet.

That's right. If you're just picking this up now and figuring, what is this? What is Newsmax talking about? Go to Ricochet.com slash membership and use the coupon code JOIN. The next GOP debate is going to be September 16th, and we will have a legendary live chat with Ricochet members and contributors dissecting all the fun. And what fun it has been. As I mentioned, Rob's off on a plane swanning about the country at some point, but John Gabriel is sitting in for him. And Peter,

of course has joined us as well. Uh, Peter, of course, the host of the ricochet podcast, according to news banks. And so Peter, I'll just turn it over to you.

Uh, we had a debate. I think it was interesting. It was 19 hours long. And, uh, gentlemen, your thoughts, your thoughts.

My thoughts run as follows. The most interesting two to three minutes, I think it turned out to be closer to three, took place immediately after the debate. When my wife and I were milling around trying to figure out what else, if we could salvage anything from the evening, and people on CNN, of course, didn't stop. CNN continued its coverage for three more hours because even though the audience was shrinking like radioactive half-life every minute, it was still the best rating CNN was going to see this quarter of a century. So they kept it going. And Chris Cuomo got to Donald Trump in the crowd after the debate.

And it was that bit I turned and watched because Donald Trump looked like an ordinary human being as he was talking to people. Chris Cuomo put the microphone to him. Trump realized he was on and the Mussolini face came right back on. Chris Cuomo kept talking to him and asking him questions about what does your family think? What is it like to be up? And the Mussolini face disappeared. And for three entire minutes, well, I didn't time it, but it felt like three minutes. Donald Trump was an ordinary and frankly, pretty likable human being. When he talked about his family, Chris Cuomo was trying to get him to

attack other candidates, which of course he's willing to do ordinarily, but he said, no, no, as a matter of fact, these are all nice people, they were all impressive. I'm not going to say any, but I think I did well, my family thinks I did well, but a lot of people did well tonight. And Chris Cuomo said, Mr. Trump, what's changing here?

Donald Trump said, well, we're getting to know each other. It was, I have heard rumors that this Trump exists. I spoke to somebody not long ago who was at a dinner at Trump's golf course in West Palm, if I have that correct. And Trump showed up and worked the crowd. And he went from person to person at the dining room just shaking hands and chatting. And my friend said he was an entirely normal and personable human being, and we got a glimpse. But at the same time, on the one hand, it was heartening.

On the other hand, it shows that the Trump who's on 98% of the time is an act. It's a complete act. Well, yes, you mentioned the Mussolini face. I've noticed that too, except of calling it, instead of calling it Il Duce, you can call it Il Duce because he seems to want to be the most disagreeable person you have. Now you could say perhaps that the reason that he was being a normal, humble guy was that up in the dais there, up in the platform, that Carly had kicked his yarbles into his esophagus and that has a chastening

effect on a man. But it does make you wonder if this really is the persona that he's able to drop at will, is he going to do so? And is he going to be more real, more wonderful, more likable to those who aren't already basking in the thrall of the glow of the adoration? John, what do you think? Oh, I'm sorry. I was just going to say, and then I will get my yarbles out of the way, that at the same time that he was more likable, he was less entertaining. That was a fairly bland three minutes to tell you the truth.

OK, John, over to you. Yeah, and I think what appeals to people about Trump is the character, the reality show guy, the you're fired guy. The cartoon. Yeah, exactly, the insult comic. That's who people like because he's not a politician. And there were a few moments when he was on stage. It was more subdued for him. But there were some scenes where – and I can't even remember what this was.

But he gives a low five to Jeb Bush and they were laughing together. It's just like it was kind of endearing to say, oh, OK. He is human. Exactly the word. Donald Trump was actually ende OK, he is human. Exactly the word. Donald Trump was actually endearing at a few moments. Exactly, exactly. And when he said his Secret Service code name, when everybody was giving that, Jeb Bush said his would be Everett-y, if memory serves, because it's high energy Donald. And Trump laughed at it and then he said his name should be humble. So I think he's humanizing himself.

But can he say the words of a, say, Marco Rubio and keep that – keep the people who love him following him? I don't think so. Well, what are those words exactly? Because if you recall the question about whether or not the Syrian refugee crisis should be on the west, he had some things to say about that. They weren't terribly specific. And when I went to Rubio after that, you had the usual crisp, incisive, concise recitation of what Marco Rubio thinks.

Now, can he bring that, in other words? That's the question. No, I don't think he can. I simply think he does. Donald Trump simply does not possess the analytical apparatus. It is not part of his mind or way, nothing in his training. I am for sure he employs people who understand spreadsheets and schedules and timelines and

building these enormously complicated projects. I think Donald Trump has employed people to do that kind of analytical work. First of all, I'm not sure how much carryover there is from business analysis to political analysis, particularly foreign policy analysis. But in any event, Trump has hired people to do that for him all his life. He's the backslabber. He's the strategist. He's the public face. He hasn't thought deeply. I could be wrong, but he gives me the impression of a man who hasn't thought deeply about anything, including his own business, including how you go about designing and building a great building on the island of Manhattan. Am I wrong?

I could be wrong about that. No, I think that's completely the case. And he really, I think one of his biggest weakness, you saw with the Hugh Hewitt interview, anytime you've listened to Hugh Hewitt, you could say they're gotcha questions, but he asked them to everybody, probably harsher ones to journalists who call in more than politicians. So it's just kind of interesting to see how thin-skinned he is about things that he doesn't want to learn.

If somebody is incredibly thin-skinned, that shows, look, I know everything. I've seen it all. I'm done. You guys, you book want to learn. If somebody is incredibly thin-skinned that shows, look, I know everything. I've seen it all. I'm done. You guys, you book nerds learn. I don't need to anymore. So that's the thing. If he gets – if he shows this human side more, I think it's really going to defang him. People are going to see weakness.

Seeing how Carly handled him was masterful. She has a tiny little shiv and she will be dignified and smiling and put it right between your ribs before you know what happened. I think – That was a hat pin in the ear. You know, I am pretty sure that that was sexist, James. I'm not sure how but I'm pretty sure. And she didn't seem rude at all. It just was kind of like, okay, the adults are speaking now.

And you want to... Hey, boys, does it bother you? I just can't get past this. Actually, I could get past it. I'd be delighted to vote for Carter. If she's the nominee, I'd be thrilled. I'd vote for her in a heart. Nevertheless, around here in Northern California, every single time I talk to somebody who either was at Hewlett Packard when she was CEO or was following the situation closely for business reasons, had an investment, held the stock.

They say, A, she was an extremely difficult person, and B, she just messed up the company. Her big strategic decision to buy Compaq was a mistake. A friend of mine said the other day, if only you had Carly Fiorina's presentation, her savvy on her feet, combined with the business success of Meg Whitman, that would make a compelling candidate. Does Carly's business,

does her at best ambiguous business background bother you? It definitely does. It concerns me and business and politics are not the exact same thing. It's a different skill set. It definitely makes me nervous. She is extremely impressive in these debates. She hasn't made a wrong step yet. It's been pretty stunning to watch this person who,

when she joined, I'm thinking, why is she running? What's going on? Does she want to be in charge of the HHS or something? And, but she hasn't made a mistake, but no, definitely. I definitely need to hear more about her business record and how she can explain that now. Well, we'll see. If she's Veep, then she brings – then there will be different requirements. If she's president, yes. But – well, anyway, why bother to listen to what we three think when we have Michael Barone on the line? We're happy again to have the dean of American political journalists. He can be found on the pages of just about every single publication you need to read,

including the Weekly Standard, the National Review, and, of course, the Washington Examiner. Welcome back to the podcast, sir. How are you today? Well, thank you very much. And you call me a dean. That's the first two letters in that are the same as the first two letters in decrepit. All right. We'll call you the king.

No, we'll call you the czar. So find a derogatory word that begins with T-S or C-Z and then we'll stump you there. So you saw the debate. What are some of your observations about that three-hour free-for-all? If you count in the undercard debate and when it began and the talk of the lever in between the debates, you were up to five hours. And, you know, the most amazing thing that didn't really come out until yesterday, there were 23 million people watching it. That's just basically the same as the 24 million that were watching on Fox. And some people thought, well, hey, Republicans will watch on Fox, but they don't know how to switch the dial to CNN. It seems like this is a record performance. CNN's highest-rated debate in the past, in January 2008, Democrats, when you had a big race between Hillary Clinton

and the surprise candidate Barack Obama, to 8 million. There is something happening out there. Obviously, a lot of people who watch reality TV are fascinated by Donald Trump and watching him, but the undercard debate got 6 million viewers, as was the case with the Fox undercard debate. There is a hunger for something different from what we've had

in American politics over the last seven years. And that hunger is pretty widespread. I think it's indicative that a lot of the rules of political conduct, the rules of thumb that we use to judge these things may be obsolete this cycle.

Michael, oh, John, you have a question. Oh, not a problem. Hi, Michael, this is John Gabriel. What do you think it says that, you know, you have Trump, of course, you have Carson, you have Fiorina. Experience is considered a negative in this environment. And I don't think it's just among Republicans. I think Americans in general. Now, is this just the Herman Cain look at summer?

These guys are entertaining. Let's give them a chance. Let's hear them out. And will people say in November saying, OK, it's getting a little close to the Iowa caucus. Let's get serious and pick the pros. Or is this really going to have legs, this outsider perspective that people seem to want? Well, the first six months of this calendar year, we saw the Republican voters, you know, the polls showed they switched back and forth. The candidate got some attention, Scott Walker in Iowa, Marco Rubio, an announcement.

His numbers would go up five or ten points. What we've seen in the last two and a half months is the people without the political experience have been getting the support. I mean, you know, you have at the beginning of the summer, the three non-officeholder candidates, Trump, Fiorina, Carson, we're getting about half the number of votes as the 14 candidates who had held the public office as the governors who were in Congress for over 150 years. By September, 1st of September, you're finding the three non-incumbent candidates,

non-officeholder candidates, outpolling the 14 officeholder candidates with 150 years in high office, and one of them has now left the field, Rick Perry, 14-year governor of Texas. So, yeah, I think voters are looking around and not just picking and choosing among their standard politicians and noticing when they make a little news and going to their side and flipping back and forth, but they're looking for some different qualities altogether, and

I think the old rules are suddenly out. Will the poll numbers look the same way in January that they look today? Probably not. Certainly in previous cycles, they haven't. I think this is a pretty fluid electorate. I think they're looking for something. Some of them think they've found it, and Donald Trump will see how far that goes.

Michael, Peter here. A lot of things could change. Peter here, Michael. Trump. Yeah. Here's my view of the matter in a nutshell, where we stand now, followed by a question. And they're really both questions,

because if you disagree with my view, say so. My view runs as follows. In the last three weeks, perhaps a month, but it has happened. Donald Trump has gone from unthinkable to a genuine candidate. That is to say, he has support that's real, that is committed to him, that's pretty impressive. This is not going to evanesce, item one. Item two, is he actually going to go all the way to the nomination with something like 25, not to the nomination, is he going to go all the way to the convention, in your judgment,

with something like 25 or 30 percent? Or, so I guess what I'm saying is I think he'll stay at at least that level of support through Iowa, New Hampshire for sure. The question in my mind is by Super Tuesday, is he down to low double digits? How do you see? So question one, is he a real candidate as I think he is? Correct me if you disagree. And question two, just what's the staying power?

Will he be a force at the convention? Well, is he a real candidate? I think I have to say yes to that question. What is his staying power? Boy, I'm an agnostic on that. I think we'll have to CNN debate was that he didn't really advance his cause a lot. A lot of us debate critiquers, mean or decrepit, have been wrong about assessing his appeal and have underestimated his appeal. But I don't regard his voters as being absolutely wedded to him.

I think what we may be seeing is a potentially vastly expanded Republican electorate looking around for a candidate who can be a vehicle for what they want. Trump, for the moment, is an acceptable vehicle. You know, it's the vehicle that 30% or so of them are buying. And the number who find him unacceptable has been declining. But I don't think we should regard these things as etched in stone. You know, these are lines on water and are capable of changing. Carly Fiorina, Michael, on the one hand, zero political experience aside from a losing Senate campaign here in California. And her business experience is mixed.

There are plenty of people here in Northern California who will tell you that she messed up at Hewlett-Packard. On the other hand, good Lord, she's impressive. Is it, is it, I'm just trying to think where, this is, this is Henry Wallace time. Somebody coming from just nowhere and proving tremendously impressive on the stump. What's, what's the parallel? Well, you know, well, if you're,'re like Donald Trump, he has a background that has some politics in it. I mean, Donald Trump's father made money building subsidized housing in Brooklyn and Queens. He had political connections. He had the same lawyer as Abe. He was in tight with the Brooklyn machine.

Donald Trump, at age 18, was present at the dedication of the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. That isn't because, you know, just he came in with a bunch of his 18-year-old buddies. He was up there in the dais because he had connections, and he has commented on this about how he... Yeah, he was there.

Carly Fiorina's father, Joseph Sneed, was a law school team uh... conservative legal scholar uh... you with the number of states and appointed as a federal judge on my circuit important judge so she had some knowledge of this in a background even though she uh... left law school after our one semester uh... maybe make orders will consider that a positive qualifications after one semester. Maybe many voters will consider that a positive qualification.

It's a good chance to get out. Ted Cruz, in contrast, was a star law school student at Harvard Law, really distinguished and capable. One thing Carly Fiorina has shown me is that, and it's a big contrast here with Trump. Preparation. She is, you know, Trump's not completely unprepared. He was able to make reference at the debate to a story about Hewlett-Packard on the front page of the Wall Street Journal that day. Rena clearly has prepared herself very carefully for,

ineffigiously, for these debates, for the confrontations, for her political presentation. She's got her lines down pat. She's got the Lady Liberty and Lady Justice quota that she made. At the end of the debate was impressive, was well-delivered. She doesn't um or ah. She knows her lines. She has rehearsed. She has gone over them.

She's taken this very seriously. And that's a positive quality in a candidate. If you're supporting a candidate or a staffer for a candidate, you'd like to see your candidate prepared. I think there's a difference when you're working for a candidate. There are two different feelings you have when that candidate gets up for a debate. Number one, you feel, geez, I hope the candidate doesn't mess up. I hope they remember those lines. Oh, God, what's going to happen next?

The other feeling you get is, okay, I've done my job. I know the candidate's going to do hers, and I'll just relax and watch it. Carly Fiorina provides the kind of preparation that makes her staffers, or whoever's rooting for her, have that second point of view when she gets up on that podium. Preparation is great, too, but she also has the skill for extemporaneously weaving together the things that she's prepared to, to fit the moment. And that's a,

that's a crisp mind. That's an agile mind. But then again, the, the, somebody who is not as crisp, but has a down home genial persona and as seems natural is Scott Walker, who seems to be the wet fuse at this point to the surprise of many.

Is he out? Why isn't he catching fire? I think Scott Walker, I had a polar minority view. I thought Scott Walker did pretty well in this debate, even though he had the lowest number of minutes speaking. I think he made some aggressively good points in his behalf, and I think it was a positive debate for Scott Walker. Now, you know, it's hard for one of those 14, and now 13 or maybe 12, if you eliminate a CNN,

did former Governor Jim Gilmore of Virginia. It's hard for those people to get noticed from the pack, because there's a lot of them. But no, I wouldn't rule Scott Walker out. I think he can revive. And whether he will or not is unclear. He's tried to pivot to national issues with measures about restricting the powers

of unions nationally. I think that's a little bit of a false move, because the fact is that the real heart of the union movement today, most union members are members of public employee unions. They're regulated by the states, not by the federal government. And they're the ones that have had the power to really inflict damage on the body of power that's ticking on the people of America. You know, private sector union membership regulated by the federal government. You know, the Democrats and the NLRB are trying to give the unions certain

advantages. Those will be revoked by a Republican majority NLRB if trying to give the union certain advantages, those will be revoked by a Republican majority NLRB if and when that comes into existence. Those are actually, I think, sort of marginal issues. But I think Scott Walker's got a story, which is he stood up under really harsh attack, threats of violence, and held to his point of view and produced good results. That's a story that still, I think, has the potential of reverberating with Republican primary voters. Sorry, go ahead, James.

No, I was just going to say, I listened to the debate instead of watching it, and even though I know Scott Walker and I've seen Scott Walker close up in a nice little dinner setting and been impressed, whenever Scott Walker came on, I had to remind myself, oh, that's Scott Walker. Right. He didn't – there was something about his presence that was not as immediately identifiable as the rest of them. But again, that could be just me. Peter, you had a question. Yeah, Michael. To switch to the Democrats. What is the disarray? We thought that we thought Hillary Clinton.

I know I say we the world thought that Hillary Clinton would simply glide in stately fashion to her coronation. The disarray is astounding. Will Hillary Clinton be the nominee? Will Joe Biden get in? Well? Will Joe Biden get in? Well, will Joe Biden get in? He seems to be deeply ambivalent about getting into the race. You know, he's 72 years old. He'll turn 73 at the end of this year.

You know, does he have the energy to go through this all? And, you know, his son dying, his man who's lost two of his four children. That's, you know, the death of a child is a devastating thing. He's suffered it twice. And so, you know, I'm not sure about that. I think the odds still favor Hillary Clinton. If you, you know, you poll Democratic primary voters, and they've got favorable reactions to Hillary Clinton.

But they're nervous. They're looking around. And when you see how she's doing, paired against Republicans in target states, she's not doing well. In states where Obama got 50-51, 52-53% of the vote, she, though universally known, is getting about 40-41-42. Those are numbers that shouldn't make any Democrat nervous, and I think are making many Democrats nervous and so Hillary looks more less inevitable than she did before and you

know it's it's interesting that the Democratic Party is not casting up for any candidates it's interesting that Martin O'Malley, governor of a fairly large-sized state, pleasant personality, seems to have, you know, Irish Catholics, seems to have struck no chord with Democratic primary voters, just getting absolutely nowhere. It's an interesting commentary. I think one interesting thing in this cycle is that the two parties' constituencies, it seems to me, are running contrary to stereotypes, stereotypes that I think have been out of date for some time, but which nonetheless have a hold on our public images.

The stereotype of the Republican Party is docile, easily led, nominates the next in line, does what they're told. Benny, the Republican constituency that we're seeing in the polls these days, we're seeing a Republican constituency that is angry, that is growing larger, that is preferring people with no public office holding experience to those who do have it, who's rebelling against its own party leadership in the Congress. You know, I saw many references to that in the debate. You've got a fractious Republican leadership. Democrats pride themselves historically,

we are the critical people. We wait for the results of science. We're the people who are free thinking and so forth. They're acting like sheep. They remain, you know, totally supportive of President Obama, though indeed some of them have had some disagree with the Iran deal. They still have totally favorable opinions about Hillary Clinton, even though her decisions on the emails have the potential to cost their party a presidency that they might otherwise have won.

They're going along that way, and they sort of remind me of the difference between second grade boys and second-grade girls. Second-grade girls are nice, docile, sweet, reliable. When they finish their work in their workbooks, they sit there on their desks with their hands folded before them and sit there quietly waiting for the next assignment. Democratic primary voters seem to be like that today. Second-grade boys are different. Second-grade boys get up in the middle of the exercise when they're supposed to be doing their workbook and walk around and hit the other guy on the shoulder.

They make rude comments. They do all sorts of things like that. And I think teachers instinctively tend to prefer the second grade girls who are a lot easier to handle. But in any case, Republican voters are acting like second-grade boys. So that's my elementary school insight of the day. Well, speaking of youthful males, one last question I had, Michael, was Marco Rubio has been very impressive in the debates.

When you see him on the stump, just polished. He's polished without looking plastic, hits all the right notes. The females that I know in my life just swoon every time they see his picture, which of course is not – I'm very angry they aren't that concerned with his policy. But hey, anything works when you're in the polling booth. My question is since he hasn't had the big moment in the debate, is he just playing the long game do you think? And how long can he last? We've seen Perry drop out. We see Walker a little wobbly. His number is in Iowa.

What do you think Rubio is thinking? Is this just slow and steady wins the race and wait until kind of the carnival atmosphere of Trump and Carson and Fiorina might fade in a few months and then he can step in? What are your thoughts about that? Well, I think that the thinking you just described is probably what the thinking is of Marco Rubio supporters and his apparatus. I mean, he does have a tremendous gift of fluency. I think it's particularly to his advantage because he has a Dan Quayle problem, which is that he looks younger than he is.

He's 41, 42 years old. He looks like he's about 32 on camera. But his detailed responses on foreign policy, a vivid contrast with Trump saying, well, I don't know much now, but I'll know more. I'll know enough when I get in there. It's truly impressive. And when you look at polling data, one of the things it tells you is that Rubio does well on second choice. Rubio does better than any other candidate on it is acceptable to me or is not an unacceptable candidate.

He's positioned himself well to be a remainder man when support for other candidates go down or at some stage in the process to jut out ahead. And timing can be important here. In the 2012 cycle, we saw a series of candidates rise up, you know, Herman Cain, Rick Perry, Newt Gingrich, and Mitt Romney was kind of playing whack-a-mole, trying to knock them down all. The one that was a really serious competition in the very close primaries in Ohio and Michigan, a little west of Wisconsin and Illinois, was Rick Santorum.

He's the guy that popped up at the right time to emerge as the serious challenger to Mitt Romney. And I think that if you're hoping for Marco Rubio to be the nominee, what you're hoping for is him to pop up at the right time in the cycle and emerge as a real contender out of this field of now 16. Well, here's where I pop up and tell you thank you for being with us, and we'll talk to you down the road when all of us are surprised that it turned out to be George Pataki versus Michael Bloomberg. Thank you.

Thank you, Michael. George Pataki is the smart guy, you know, but he ain't going to be the nominee. Okay. No, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. Okay. No, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Michael. I am never forget the day when I first

meet the great Michael Barone. It was in 2008 here in Minnesota at the convention, and apparently he'd read my website, and he knew that I was from Fargo and greeted me with a recitation of the voting history of my home district back in Fargo, congressionally wise, going back to the founding of the state,

which may be his preferred mode of introducing himself to everyone. But I was just astonished and thought that if he kept talking, he would have probably given me the serial number of my great-grandfather's general, you know, Great Army of the Republic medal or something like that. And then I would have had to go home and, you know, get out the medal and check the numbers, and ha, he was off by one number. So much for his vaunted knowledge.

In that box, by the way, where I keep my great grandfather's GAR medal, there are three items. The medal, there is an old tin type of him before he went into the war. And there is also a little tiny blue box that bears the face of King Gillette. Why he saved a pack of razors, I've no idea. But if I take them out, I find that they are undimmed by time or rust. It was a quality product. And if great-grandfather was around today, though, he wouldn't be using King Gillette products. He'd be going to Harry's.

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the liberals, it may play differently. And I wonder how many people came to that debate because they'd heard the hype about Trump and they wanted to see more. I'm thinking a lot of them did, that this may have been the first exposure they had to the fellow. And the fact that the numbers in the second half of the debate actually grew from what I understand indicates that people found this to be quite entertaining, instructive, informative. But did they get what they want? Did they get the full Trump? Now, the people who showed up at a conference the other day where,

I don't know if you guys saw this, somebody stood up and said, we've got a problem with Muslims, Muslim men. What are we going to do with them? We have to deport all the Muslims, like Obama. And Trump's response was, shall we say, the rote response he gives, which is, we're having people look into this, which really is remarkable. I mean, it really is. CNN last night played a little bit where John McCain was asked the same question by somebody who said, you know, the president, I think he's an Arab.

He's not one of us. And McCain just took the mic back and said, no, no, come on. Jeez, good for God's sake. But you put one of these birther nuts who wants to deport every single Muslim from America and McCain doesn't even understand or the Trump doesn't even understand that his response to this is gaff-tastic. But does it matter? who is really a Trump fan and I think has been burning up the interwebs lately with intellectually consistent and rigorous defenses of the Trump phenomenon. Somebody who really can explain the appeal of the man and why he finds him to be such a novel actor on the American stage. And that, of course, is our call to action to bring on Rick Wilson, Trump fan number one.

Hey, you Zio-cuck-servative, welcome to the Ricochet podcast. I'm sorry, guys. I may have to cut this short. I'm in the middle of having a full back tattoo of Donald Trump applied. So it's going to be a – it's worth the pain, I think. Well, if you have enough back hair, actually, you can have it dyed so you can flex your scapulas and you can have it at waft. I can have it woven into a Trump rug. I hear Roger Stone has an excellent tattoo artist.

Yes. All right. I'm not sure Roger's still returning my calls, but. He wrote a piece in the Daily Beast the other day, which I'm sure garnered many a fan about the Trump virus, as you call it. Let's get into some specifics here, because even though your piece was fantastic, I really enjoyed it as a piece of political invective. But, of course, there are the details.

One of the details that came up was Trump v. Carly when it came to a record at HP and Trump's bankruptcy. But the most interesting one to me was Trump v. Bush on the matter of the casinos, which Politico dug into a little about and found some interesting things. Tell us about that. Well, as your friend from Florida, gentlemen, I can tell you that the minute he denied it, my phone blew up. Because all of us who are in the political lobbying communications world in Florida have been around the block. And Donald Trump was fighting for casinos in Florida, retaining the most expensive lobbyists possible in Florida to get casino gambling.

This guy is a flat out. This is a this was a this was one of those lies that was so brazen and so over the top that that you can't look. All the centrifuges in Iran could not spin the guy out of this thing. This was a flat lie. And it will continue to embarrass him over the coming weeks because they will unspool this thing. And one of the reporters that's on it is Mark Caputo from Politico, who is a longtime Florida political reporter who is a very, very smart guy, and is going chapter and verse on this thing. But you know what?

The fundamental thing is this. Priority Arena is owning her business record. And yes, HP went belly up during the tech recession. There were mistakes that she made, and she's owned them. Donald Trump was the proprietor of an institution designed scientifically to take money from stupid people over and over again. No one loses money in the casino business. Casinos don't go bankrupt.

They are, like I said, mathematically built to rip people from the Trump demo off. So this is not something that, that, that is the same thing as the company engaged in market forces in a bad tech recession. This is a guy who has casinos in Atlantic City surrounded by the bourgeoisie of the

area, giving them their social security checks to play slots all day, and he still loses money. Come on. It's not even possible to make that case. Well, one question. I mean, Atlantic City has been hammered by competition and by people being tired with it. So, I mean, you can make the point that Trump's problems there weren't Trump's problems. It was Atlantic City's problems.

That's another question. Is Chris Christie on the hook for the failure of the Revell Casino, which I understand had some state participation in and was a spectacular bust? Honestly, guys, I don't even think that much about Chris Christie anymore. I mean, he was trying to keep his head above water in the debate the other night. He's a non-factor in the campaign at this point, honest answer. I know we've still got a few partisans out there, mostly guys on his payroll, but he's done. Um, I wouldn't invest state money in casinos. That's just my personal philosophy. Um, cause I don't think the state should have any role in an institution deliberately designed to part the poor and the stupid from their money. We do enough of that in government. So, you know, I think that Trump and the casino

story is just the tip of the iceberg. And you'll notice that one thing that Donald Trump particularly has trouble dealing with is anything that actually gets to the fact that he's not really worth $10 billion. No serious person who's looked at his finances thinks he's worth $10 billion. No serious person who looked at his finances thinks he's worth $10 billion. He's not a spectacular businessman. He could have taken the money daddy gave him, parked it on Wall Street and never touched it and be worth actually worth $8 billion as opposed to his hypothetical, um,

you know, fabulous version of what he's worth. Um, you know, uh, he likes to claim that he, to claim that he's worth. So I think that making the case on Trump's economic record and on his business record is one that's fruitful. And making the case, as Jeb did,

and Jeb's had Trump in his head for a couple of weeks now with him rent-free. And the one thing Jeb did there was peel back a little bit of the fact that Donald Trump, you know, he's got these two big arguments that are very appealing to a lot of people. One is, I'm so rich I can't be bought. I'm so fabulously wealthy no one can ever influence me. And the second is, I buy and sell politicians like these guys in this stage all the time. Well, he gave the Republican Party of Florida and Jeb a lot of money for his desired casinos, and Jeb basically said,

nah, I don't think so. Well, Rick, one question. It definitely sets me back a little bit, I think. Rick, this is John Gabriel, a fellow warrior in the crazy Twitter wars that have taken over as the primary starts. One question I had is we saw we were discussing earlier, the host here, how different Trump seemed in his post-debate interview. A few times on stage, you saw him kind of glad-handing Jeb. He seemed a lot more human. He seemed to drop the mask a little bit. How do you think that plays

with some of his more, let's say, enthusiastic followers? Will they say, oh, good, I like this kinder, gentler Trump? Or will they be saying, no, get back in the ring, put on the Ric Flair outfit, and let's get fighting again? That's part of the problem with the way that Trump entered and exploded onto the scene. And that is that explosions and combustion like that cannot sustain themselves. And even Trump, the other night, realized he wasn't in an environment that he gets to

vamp and mug and dance around and caper on stage and have the trunk show. He realized it was three hours in a long haul in a format that wasn't going to be as fun as he expected. It was hot. He was, you know, he was, he was, he was not, you know, able to, to, to set the evening off. And he tried to get it going at the little, you know, pissing match with his friend, uh, right. Rand Paul on the stage. He took those inexplicable swipes at,

at Rand and Pataki right in the very beginning, right out of his mouth. And all I thought was, Oh, damn it. Here it goes again. It's the whole night's going to devolve into the Trump show, but it didn't.

And, and I don't think he's having as much fun. I don't think, I don't think that environment and that night was as much fun for him in any way whatsoever. And I think that the campaign is going to get less fun for him. And that's something that, you know, Donald Trump, I use the bully theory a lot on Trump, okay? Bullies like a couple of things. They like to think that anybody who fights with them is going to be destroyed. They like to, they like to have that image out there as a main thing. And that 90% of what a bully does is make people scared of fighting with them. The second thing is when they do fight, they want to fight sure that that that other people are echo chambers

for them and other people are spreading the word for them and their reputation you know it's like a game of telephone it gets worse and worse you know it's not just that he beat a guy up it said he killed a guy it's not just that he killed a guy it's that he killed a guy and ate him right so with trump uh the other night once carly fiorina gutted him, and she gutted him like a trout. It was one of those beautiful moments of political timing and theater I've ever seen. It was better than You're No Jack Kennedy. Once that happened, Donald Trump's invincibility argument and the thought that if you post up against Donald Trump, you're a dead man went poof. And the,

every person on that stage, except for his mini me, Ted Cruz, um, went after him, uh, with sticks, some more effectively than others,

some, some more aggressively than others. But I think if you look at in rank order, Carly Fiorina, Marco Rubio, who, who made Trump look like a clown on foreign policy, just made him look like a clown. And Carly Fiorina, who got him three times, first on the

appearance argument, the second time on foreign policy, and the third time on taking part in the business case for the Trump casino stuff. I think that this was a guy who suddenly didn't look like he was 10 feet tall and covered the steel anymore. He looked like a candidate. He looked like a guy who was on that stage as a mortal human. Rick, Peter here. Trump led.

Rubio and, above all, Carly had wonderful nights. Jeb Bush, he's raised more money than anyone else. He was a very good governor of Florida for eight full years. He comes from a family that has politics in its blood, and he is in single digits in the polls. If your assignment were, and I'm giving you this assignment, to sketch out Jeb Bush's road to the nomination, when does

he come back? Well, here's when he comes back. Jeb Bush's road to the nomination right now, Jeb wanted to become the guy again. He wanted to turn this all upside down. Jeb Bush would walk out and say, and give a big speech somewhere,

go to Heritage or somewhere, give a big speech, go to Hoover or somewhere would walk out and say, and give a big speech somewhere, go to Heritage or somewhere, give a big speech, go to Hoover or somewhere, whatever, and say, you know, I've been thinking about this race a lot. I've been thinking about leadership a lot. I've been thinking about how this country has changed and that unless I make a decision to speak to you honestly about some of the things that I've come to the conclusion on, you know, we're not going to go anywhere. What I'd like to say first is that I was wrong on Common Core. I not only was wrong on Common Core, I was wrong in a way that I now wish to rend my clothing

and submit to your punishment because I was so wrong on Common Core, which is the worst thing in the history of the universe. I will find all things related to Common Core in the federal government as precedent, and I will burn them to the ground and salt the earth. This is the number one thing

you hear in focus groups about Jeb Bush is Common Core. The number one reason they hate him. Not only do they hate him, they hate him because he keeps telling people

you're stupid because you don't understand Common Core. Yes, yes, yes. He has insulted the base. It is the one thing. Look, I'll, well, let's put it this way. They are aware of polling throughout the country about Common Core.

They've been provided to it by interested parties whom you might know, and it might be on the phone with you right now, about how disastrous it is as a policy matter. It is singularly devastating to Jeb Bush. He has to abandon it. He has to kill it. He has to say he was Bush. He has to abandon it. He has to kill it. He has to say he was wrong. He won't do it. This is why this is probably a fool's errand, right? The second thing is, is this whole thing of I want to have a joyous, happy campaign?

No, he doesn't. He needs to start taking the stick to Hillary Clinton, too. He needs to start saying, you know, not only is she wrong, but she's from the fault of all evil and her evil husband, and she will screw this country up more than Barack Obama ever has. And he needs to start making a contrast. One reason Carly Piorina was able to rise up was that she was seen as somebody who was bringing a very aggressive case against Hillary Clinton for months and months and months before these two moments in the debates happened. Hey, Rick, Peter, so time, time, time, time. Listen, you said a moment ago that Chris Christie is no longer a factor in the campaign. Let me go through some other names, and you say factor or not factor, and if there's still

a factor, I will give you one sentence but no more than one sentence on each. Rand Paul. Still a factor? No factor. Not a factor. Huckabee. No factor. Kasich. No factor. Not a factor. Huckabee. No factor. Kasich.

No factor. Kasich, no factor. Probably no factor. He embraced Obamacare, guys. As I said to somebody, he took Obamacare out in the dad's station wagon and made out with it. He's the only governor who loved it. Okay. That's your sentence on him.

Pataki, I'm assuming. In fact, let's do two at once. Pataki and James Gilmore. No factor, let's do two at once. Pataki and James Gilmore. No factor, obviously. Christie, no factor. All right, here's a complicated one. Ted Cruz. I'll give you two sentences on Ted Cruz.

Ted Cruz is still a factor because Ted Cruz is somebody who strokes all the appropriate conservative buttons of the very activated part of the far right in our party. That's one sentence. Okay, one more. And the second sentence is, yes, Cruz has played a very dangerous or smart game, depending on the outcome, of being the one guy who was the mini-me to Donald Trump. He has not attacked Trump. He is drafted in Trump's wake.

He's been the pilot fish to Trump's great white shark. And so he is trying to position himself to inherit the remainder when Trump goes belly up. Got it. And we'll just see. Next time we speak, you may tell us that was either dumb or brilliant, depending on what has happened. Last name, and then I have one more question. Last name that I'm going to give you, Ben Carson. And again, I'll give you two sentences because I think we both agree this is complicated. Ben Carson.

Still a factor. Carson, however, can't afford another debate performance where he doesn't fill up the room. He's not a rhetorically gifted politician, and he doesn't express the big idea of leadership in speaking. He is a mindful

conservative. He has a... I thought he appeals to the party as its super ego when Trump is its head. So he's been a safe haven for a lot of people who are unhappy with his ordinary choices, but who aren't yet ready to commit to Donald Trump. So I think the arena may take a lot of his juice at this point. Hold on, that's my next question. So summarizing Ben Carson, is it fair to say that your view runs as follows? Whatever a president of the United States must have,

he must have sheer presence. And that Ben Carson, fine a man as he may be, has so far failed to demonstrate. Fair? That is fair. That is more than fair. All right. fair now Carly you said a moment ago in talking about Trump that rockets just can't sustain themselves there's a kind of

meteor like quality to Trump because there's no grounding there this will fall back to earth and Carly Fiorina you said it was as beautiful her evisceration of Trump on his insult about her looks was as beautiful a moment of theater

as you're no Jack Kennedy. I think we have, before you came on, we had Michael Barone. Everybody agrees that Carly Fiorina is proving tremendously impressive. On both counts, she has presence

and she's able to think on her feet. There's substance and presence. However, where did she come from? She has a business background that is... So what I'm saying is, is Carly Feeney... Yeah, she ran for governor of California. Go ahead. She ran for governor of California,

so she knows a little bit of the basic political game. Senator, excuse me, I of California Senator Go ahead Even on a campaign where you lose You learn By the way if you're hearing screaming girls Because I'm at my daughter's horse show right now I thought a portal to hell Had opened up No just a portal to

extraordinary constant expense. As my wife said, other people have beach houses. Thank goodness. Anyway, she has been, over the last year, putting in work. She has been traveling, she has been speaking, and she has been, over that year,, putting in work. She has been traveling, she has been speaking,

and she has been, over that year, making the case against Hillary in a more focused and competitive way than almost any of these other candidates. A lot of these other guys have been still fighting against Barack Obama, okay, and running against Barack Obama and the Obama record. She has made this case over and over again against Hillary Clinton, against her leadership, against her judgment, against her ethics, et cetera. It's more compelling than almost anybody else. She's very, very good at it. She's become a very focused candidate. I'll tell you a quick story. Let's see, Pat, this year. And you guys know I'm from the Bush world and I'm friends with Marco. so I'm very conflicted. It's a very tough spot for a guy like me from Florida.

But someone at CPAC said, you should see Carly. You should meet Carly. You should say hi to her, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I got to tell you, about 15 minutes into the conversation, I was thinking, oh, my God. She's good. She's terrific. She went out and gave a hell of a speech at CPAC. And that's where I started telling people, don't sleep on this.

She could be very, very compelling. She's got a lot going on. She's got a very smart message. Listen, I don't think anybody can dispute that when she walked out on that stage the other night, she looked and sounded like she could be commander in chief. I don't think Donald Trump mugging and capering on the stage like a, like a, like a, like a jester looks presidential. Sorry, I just don't, I don't, I don't, I don't believe it. And I think that there's a moment where people want somebody who fits their, their mental

mapping of what a president looks and sounds like. And she looks and sounds like a commander-in-chief the other night. You know, that's the simplest test of all and yet I hadn't thought of it. You are correct. Ben Carson does not pass that test or has

not yet. Donald Trump never will. Jeb Bush, curiously enough, only seems to pass the test at moments. Marco's big problem at the moment is that he looks a little bit too young, and on and on it goes. The only person in my judgment who looks as though she

could step into the Oval Office, send troops into combat if necessary, stare down the Iranians, get deals done in Congress, she could do the job. Maybe a hundred... She has the persona of somebody get deals done in Congress, she could do the job. Maybe a hundred – No, she has the persona of somebody Aaron Sorkin would choose if he was making another television show about the White House. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.

And I keep thinking of Margaret Thatcher videos on YouTube. When I see her talk, the lady is not for turning. I'm waiting for her to drop that line into a debate. I got to tell you, she has – and look, you run through that list and the other guys, the beach here guys, I mean, Captain Corncone, Mike Huckabee is never going to look or feel like a president to people. John Kasich looks like a community college professor. Shaggy, bad fitting suit, you know, just that is devastating and unfair, but completely, completely true. No, I listen, listen, believe me, it's, it's, it's nothing but objective at this point. Yeah.

Marco looks a little young. He looks a little, a little bit still like, like too much of a rising star in, in, in the physical form a little bit. Now that doesn't mean that his rhetorical gifts can't offset that because they are considerable, but you know, the, and, and, you know,

Christie and Kasich and, and Rand, they don't feel like, like it's the, what people have in the mental mapping in their head of commander in chief. No, when he put Christian,

she looked and was the part of the other night that dress spectacular. The, her whole app, her whole look, her whole ethics was just perfectly tuned. Well, I want to see Christie come on stage and point to gentle and say, get in my belly,

but we have to let you go now. We'll let the takeaway be that Rick Nelson is hanging around a place where little girls are on horses and seems to be digging it. So, yeah, that's what you'd expect. Yeah, well, you know. I'm a Trump critic. I take lots of pictures. I'm Chris Hansen.

Take a seat. Okay. All right. We'll see you on Twitter. We'll see you where you write and hope to have you on the podcast. Thank you, gentlemen. Enjoy. Always a pleasure.

Bye-bye. Thanks a lot. Get in my belly. Well, it's a line. You are outrageous. It's a line from an Austin Powers movie where he had this fat, gross Scotsman, which was Mike Myers' excuse to do his Scottish accent again. He didn't get paid enough for doing that for the Shrek things. You know, I was pointing some people to Rick's piece in The Daily Beast about Trump, and they were sort of rolling their eyes and saying, ah, he's just an establishment guy. Of course, he's going to say that we need to burn down the establishment. And I said, I just want to shriek and claw my face out when people talk about blowing it up and burning it

down. Because of course, yeah, we're going to have something right in place that's going to take us on to the next level in 2016. But you know, on the other hand, a healthy skepticism about the whole process is something very American. and if you are such a skeptic or would like to be a skeptic, we advise you to immerse yourself, marinate in the Skeptic's Guide to American History. It's from the great courses. If you're a lifelong learner or wannabe,

well, of course you are, why else would you be listening to the podcast? Then you'll love the great courses. The Skeptic's Guide to American History is taught by award-winning professor Mark Stoller, and he filters through the myths and misconceptions about America's past to offer new perspectives on pivotal events. For example,

how certain misconceptions from World War II have shaped American foreign policy since. How issues during the 1920s set the stage for the cultural shift of contemporary America. It's true. You want to look at the roots of the 60s, you have to go sometimes back to the sick to the 20s and see what they're doing in Greenwich Village. Well, The Great Courses is celebrating their 25th anniversary this year, and they have over 500 of said courses on topics like

history, science, photography, music. You can watch or you can listen with online downloads and streaming via The Great Courses apps or, of course, DVDs or CDs if you're into physical media. The Great Courses has created a special limited time offer for you, the Ricochet listener, and you can order from eight of their best-selling series, including The Skeptic's Guide to American History, at up to 80% off the original price. But be quick. Alacrity. Let that be your word. 80% savings is only available for a limited time.

So don't wait. Go to thegreatcourses.com slash ricochet. That's thegreatcourses.com slash ricochet. Well, gentlemen, before we go, we should take a little stroll through some people on the member feed and what they were saying. I participated more than I probably should have if I wanted to maintain self-respect on the Star Trek thread. But then again, that's what I love about Ricochet. Self-respect? Is it not a little late in our careers for any of us to be attempting to take ourselves seriously? You're quite right.

I'm going back to that feed. Get in my belly? I was actually – Unbelievable. I was arguing about starship classes by the time the thing finally came to an end. Really? I don't know. There were somebody – who was it? Who was it advocating for the Miranda class as being an effective piece of – I just – I can't even.

Anyway, in the more erudite sections of the member feed, which by the way is a reason alone to join Ricochet because there's all sorts – I mean the front page is great. But there's just all of these topics back there. Lee wrote on Scott Walker's dilemma. Here's the quote. The very style makes it difficult to win that trust. The mild manner comes across as weakness or lack of conviction, and the rhetorical caution as shiftiness.

These impressions are not accurate, but they are understandable so long as the conservative media doesn't look too hard. Walker cannot count on a Sean Hannity or a Rush Limbaugh to play nationally the role of Charlie Sykes or Mark Belling, sifting through the facts and informing the electorate. Indeed, conservative media at the moment is as much Walker's friend as the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Could that be some of the problem? This is where we need Brother Rob to come in and say, stop complaining about the media.

I'm tired of everything. John, go ahead. Be Rob. Yeah, and I don't think Walker's problem is the media per se. Can we stop talking about that, please? As the rhino squish, I'm trying to channel Rob's energy here. No, I'm a huge Walker fan. And frankly, the most appealing platform position that he has is being pro Green Bay Packers as a fellow fan. But what I look for in a president

is not what the general public looks for. That's why the Trump phenomenon was so surprising to me. I would like a new Calvin Coolidge. And that's who Walker reminds me of. He isn't flashy. He doesn't want to be flashy. I want a guy who I forget is even there until he submits his State of the Union in writing via mail, snail mail to the Congress. I don't want to hear about a guy. I don't want to be flashy. I want to get about my life. I'd rather buy Harry's razors and I'd rather listen to the great courses than watching a three-hour debate with 16 candidates yelling at each other. So yeah, it's not – it is not the media's fault.

It has been frustrating this cycle. A lot of the most popular radio hosts are kind of going for the shiny object. But hey, they need ratings. They have advertisers. That's understandable. Walker can't change that. If he can hang on, is the field thins a bit? And that's a big question because his numbers have been falling in Iowa, which is he really has invested a lot of effort there. Maybe people can hear him, hear his story, and hear him out.

But he's not a carnival barker. And one thing I was nervous about in the last debate is that he would try to out-Trump Trump. And look, that's not his persona. That's not what he does. He just needs to keep doing what he's doing and hopefully people will give him a listen. But you can't really blame the media for that. Yeah, well, they say slow and steady wins the race. No, only if everybody else is slower.

Peter, any closing thoughts today before we head out? Well, yes, I'd like to refer everyone. Rob cheered about this on the website, of course, on the Ricochet website. But Newsmax did an overview. A brilliant reporter at Newsmax. Newsmax, the spectacular new conservative – not new. It's been around for some time now. The spectacular conservative media outlet did an overview of the top 50, five, zero conservative podcasts.

And Ricochet.com came in at number one. That reporter was so handsome, by the way. I really think he's been working out. Looks fantastic. It was a she. Oh. I love that face. Channeling your inner Nero there from Twitter.

Yes, that was great to get. And what's more, it recognized that Ricochet is an aggregate of many podcasts, not just simply, of course. And by the way, I was on an airplane the other day flying back from the East Coast and I listened to several – I binge listened. Is that a phrase?

Does anybody binge listen? I binge listened to Glopp and John Yoo and Richard Epstein on Law Talk and Mona Charan and Jay Nordlinger on Need to Know. And you know what? We have a wonderful bundle of podcasts. I don't have time each week to listen to all of them or each month, John, you. Anyway, they're all terrific. They're just great. That's right.

And remember, people, we give them away for free. Why? Because we're stupid and you're cheap. But let's change that, shall we? Let's say that you've been so inspired by all these things and you've gone to all the great podcasts that Peter listened to and you think, how do I show my appreciation? Well,

you crack open your wallet with a crowbar or a Jaws of Life and let some flies come out in the cartoon fashion. And then you sign up for Ricochet to make sure that this enterprise goes not just through the 2016 cycle, but 18 and 20 and beyond that. That's what Rob would say if he was here to tell you, and he's probably fidgeting in his airplane seat right now saying,

are they making the member pitches? Are they making the member pitches? We need 10,000. I won't tell you how many we are away from 10,000, just that you can help us get there. But if you're already a member, of course, thank you so much. Can't wait to hear what you say about this, and we'll respond to you in the comments.

And remember, of course, this Ricochet podcast wouldn't be possible if it weren't for the sponsors of Harry's. That's harrys.com's coupon code Ricochet for five bucks off and thegreatcourses.com slash Ricochet where you can get up to 80 percent off the courses of your choice and learn while you exercise, while you walk, while you garden, while you sit at your desk. And of course, visit the Ricochet store. Lots of great Ricochet swag there as well. Peter, thank you. John, great to have you sitting in. We'll see you at the site, and we'll see everybody else at the comments at Ricochet 2.0. Thank you, everyone.

Next week. We'll be right back. Thank you. that we're living is untaken again there's nothing to believe in the Lord is the one who will move our way to be king for a day

Ricochet join the conversation Ricochet. Join the conversation. The The The The The The The The The

The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The And satisfy the hunger The battle brings the schedule in its way To begin for the day In the day In the day You're only here once So you gotta get it right No time to fuss and fight Cause love don't mean much It pays you down with some