The Ricochet Podcast - We'll Be Around

Episode Date: January 8, 2016

Welcome to 2016, faithful podcast listeners. We start off the year strongly with two of our most popular guests: the great Victor Davis Hanson and the no less great Andrew Klavan. There’s lots of talk about warriors ancient and modern, some Trump, some Europe. Even some talk about the current crop of movies. But seriously, no spoilers. A few links related to this show: Victor Davis Hanson’s The... Source

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Innovate, the IT solutions people. and what it means is that the people don't want socialism they want more conservatism mr dorbetshaw tear down this wall welcome to 2016 it's the ricochet podcast i'm james lalings we have peter robinson and rob long of course we've got two old favorites, Victor Davis Hanson and Andrew Klavan. Let's have ourselves a podcast. There you go again. Yes, it's the Ricochet Podcast, number 287. But most importantly, it's the first of the year 2016.

And what a year it's going to be. Rack, ruin, collapse, and the utter loss of all we hold dear. And we'll be here every moment of it with you to tell you what's going on. No, it's going to be a great year. Wonderful things are going to happen, and wonderful things can happen soon for you if you start sleeping on a Casper. We're brought to you by Casper Mattress, and it's a premium mattress for a fraction of the price delivered right to your door.

Casper is revolutionizing the mattress industry by cutting that cost of dealing with those resellers and showrooms and passing it right on to you. Also brought to you by The Great Courses. They're celebrating their 25th anniversary this year and they offer lecture series in over 500 subjects including history, science, arts, museum. Oh, there's so much. It's available in DVDs, CDs, streaming, digital downloads

or, of course, with The Great Courses apps. You can go to thegreatcourses.com slash ricochet for your limited introductory price. We'll tell you a little bit more about that later as well. And, of course, we're brought to you by SaneBox. You know, I'm looking at a clean, neat, easily apprehensible email box, and it's all because of them. If your email box is out of control, you can get it back into the grasp of your hand and live life again untroubled by your email nightmare

with SaneBox. And of course, we're brought to you by Ricochet.com, which is where Rob comes in with great alacrity here to tell us what's going on because our guest is hot on the heels of all of us. Rob, welcome. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you too, James.

Yes, you know, we are, in fact, starting a new year, and I think this is a good time to tell you, if you're listening to this podcast and you are not a member, please join Ricochet. Go to ricochet.com. We actually need your membership. Ricochet.com slash membership. If you were a member and you let it lapse, we get it. You can use the code REJOIN, get two months free.

If you just want 30 months free to find out what all this shouting is about, go to rickshada.com. Use the coupon code JOIN. You get 30 free days. Absolutely no risk to you. Here's what you're doing when you join. You are supporting the organization, supporting the podcast. You are becoming a member of the fastest-growing, wittiest, smartest, most interesting center-right community on the web. We are striking a blow for civility on the web.

We are the only place doing that and we're the only place doing it well. So if that matters to you, and I think it should, you should join Ricochet.com. Well, you know what we should do in the future is we should have you read that really slowly. As slowly as

possible, because a lot of people may be fast-forwarding through the opening commercials. If you do that, then we can get you at regular speed and the people who've been blowing through that because hey it's an ad who needs ads ads are annoying everything should be free would realize again the picture making and why it's important especially this year when we've got uh something close to an election coming up uh something close to it i mean i don't know i I mean I did her. I did her two days ago with some very smart people and and sort of all over the spectrum in terms of center right politics. Nobody on the Trump side, but a few people not on the non Trump side. So it wasn't a you know, it wasn't a gathering of the GOP or whatever they call it, whatever the establishment is today.

And there were about two X theories as to what is going to happen in the next six weeks, eight weeks, than there were people at the table. It was the most – I mean we actually at some point we said this is the most interesting. I mean take out for a minute that as far as I'm concerned it's sort of a GOP is having a nervous breakdown. But it is the most interesting political season ever. I cannot remember a more interesting and relevant debate. Good morning. Hey, Peter. Peter just joined us.

Speaking of interesting and relevant. Yeah. I couldn't remember a more relevant political sort of back and forth. And that's something. That's a silver lining on the cake. What did they say? What did they think was going to happen? God, there was eight or nine different theories.

Depending on who leaves Iowa. Cruz, Iowa. Trump doesn't do well in Iowa. Then he goes to – then they all go to New Hampshire. Cruz has got a little bit of a win to his sails, but that's not really going to work in New Hampshire. Rubio does – Rubio and Christie do better in New Hampshire than anybody expects. Jeb does better in New Hampshire than anybody expects. Well, Jeb's got that – wait a minute.

Jeb's got that game-changing billboard. Yeah, right, right. Well, that's in Iowa, I think. And then there was the theory, okay, well, then – or do they go to Jeb and they say, hey, listen, you did okay in New Hampshire. Now it's time for you to drop out with dignity. And there are all sorts of little contraptions building. It's interesting look this is all a matter of saying if you really want to stay abreast of all the stuff you want to participate in the conversation you got to join ricochet but yeah anyway yeah well you begin that

conversation by saying you had dinner with some really you know with some smart people in manhattan nobody ever says i had you know i had dinner with some idiots morons yeah six or seven really stupid people i know that's the default setting that's the default setting well that's what ricochet is it's the smart table where you can go and have these wonderful conversations with friends. And yes, a couple of elbows maybe nudged into ribs here to there. But it's unlike the cesspool-y places that you may be splashing about in the internet today. Well, we would like to welcome our first guest. And that would be Peter Robinson.

Hi, Peter. Nice of you to make it. Happy New Year. Can you guys hear me now? And that's our actual first guest. Yes,. Hi, Peter. Nice of you to make it. Happy New Year. Can you guys hear me now? And that's our actual first guest. Yes, we can, Victor. It's Victor Davis Hanson, of course, our favorite professor of classics and student of the world past and present. Welcome back to the podcast, sir.

How are you today? Very good. Thank you for having me. Excellent. Well, you know, there's so many places to start. Let's start with Germany. Let's start with Cologne. Let's start with the migrant experience that Germany is now processing psychologically and politically. How do you think this is going to play out in of women are to carry out than the Germans do. squaring the circle between their multicultural fides and the fact that these immigrants, at least many of them, don't have the same regard for women as they do.

It's hard to know who wins in the multiculturalism versus the rights of women in Europe today. And this is superimposed on a continent that is defenseless at a time when the world has never been more dangerous and which has enormous physical problems between southern EU countries and the north. So it's not good. And as far as the United States, as a rule of thumb, whatever Europe is doing right now in the west, we should be doing the opposite, militarily, economically, politically, socially, culturally. So in that regard, if we don't want future problems, I don't think that we should be allowing immigrants en masse from the Middle East to come. And by the way, I mean, classical rules of immigration have always reminded us

that when immigrants come in reasonable numbers and there's diversity in the sources of their origins, then assimilation and amalgamation and intermarriage integration work much better than just dropping. But, hey, Victor, it's Rob Long in New York. Is that true for Europe? I think that's true for the United States. People come to the United States and they understand, they latch on to the idea. But what's the idea of being a German, especially a German? It seems like it's gone through a lot of changes the past hundred years.

And they are loathe to talk about a German way for obvious reasons. When those people arrive in Germany, they're not there to become part of the German – No, they're not. – politic, are they? There's no German dream. No, but I mean I think there's people in Germany who come individually with skills who can assimilate to some degree but remember german germany for most of its history had a word that sort of like raza in italian or raza in spanish or raza among the chicano movement it volk and that meant that to be german you couldn't just speak german

or be a legal citizen or resident you could be that for 100 German, you couldn't just speak German or be a legal citizen or a resident. You could be that for 100 years and you wouldn't be German. It was the way you looked. It goes back to the idea that Germany was beyond the Danube and the Rhine and was never corrupted, so to speak, in that Nietzschean, Spengarian way by Western civs. So it's very hard for Germans to integrate Kurds or Turks and they never really integrate. And they know that too and the same thing to a lesser degree of france and holland uh german they have a class system right yeah i wish i could say they have a class system and we don't but it's more than that it's

more even in their post-modern era they have a little bit of something else that makes a person a European in a way that makes a person a Japanese or Chinese. And it's got a racial ethnic element that we don't have. In a way, I think that's part of our success. But the German – the news show German, I think it's pronounced heute, which means today, right? Yeah. Today show. They apologized this morning for not reporting about the marauding bands of Middle Eastern and North African youth who ran through Cologne and attacked women, raped women, assaulted women.

And they did not report that. Like, let me ask you, is that, is is there ever has there ever been a point in history where Does anything, for A, has that ever happened before? And has any good come of it? Well, no. I mean, everybody in Germany knew that Stalingrad was a disaster, even though they played Christmas music as it was being destroyed. And everybody in Japan knew that when Guadalcanal was lost, the war was basically all over as far as the japanese ascendancy and everybody in the soviet union eastern europe knew it was alive for 50 years so it's never it's it never comes it never is good that's what

created the the fame of george orwell and so so we know that the european experiment in general and the european particular experience in germ in Germany doesn't square that circle. In their defense, what would the reporters do if they have to apologize? What would be the alternative? Apology is much better than reporting the truth because the truth basically says to the German people, it's all a lie. The EU in general and our PC multicultural dream that we're going to bring all these people. They're going to be so impressed with German liberalism and technology. They're going to just beg us to be part of our body politic. And then in condescending fashion, we're going to pat them on the head and said, you're sort of Germans now. And nobody believes that. And Germans don't believe it. And the problem with Europe, unlike us, is when we get these reactions, whether it's to chaos in Italy in 1922 or Weimar Republic, the reaction is a little bit more extreme than ours. And I think we're going to see a growing solidarity and conglomeration of parties into a right-wing movement that we haven't seen in our lifetime. I remember in the New York Times there was a story about a small town that its population had been trebled by residents, which means – by immigrants, I mean. The town is gone.

The people have lost their town to the newcomers. And they were interviewing a bunch of locals and they went to the obligatory far right guys or far left if you want to believe Jonah Goldberg. And they said, are you a neo-nazi and he said no no i'm not a neo-nazi i am a nazi which was refreshing at least so there's a few i think you're right about that my hometown is overrun by people from mexico particularly the province of oaxaca 90 of my hometown which used to be racially diverse with Armenians, Europeans, Mexican-Americans, Asians, is now all basically Mexican nationals, most of them illegal. And we're not having that type of tension because I see a Mexican national who's been here 20 years and he says to's starting to integrate very slowly and not as well as we could but there's something about america that says you really don't want to remain in an ethnic block because

for all the value that gives your elites to demagogue the issue you're not going to be part of that world you want to be part of and then our host us americans are more willing to accept the so-called other than Europeans. So I don't think we're going to have the same problem as they are. But the question, and I know Peter wants to leap in here, is this. When people say, you know, when it comes to nationalism and Ein Volk and the Germans, we got a couple of presidents that aren't particularly cheerful. And people worry about a resurgent fascist Germany. But it seems to me that the continent spirit is exhausted and that if you do hear about the occasional neo or actual Nazi,

it's the thrash of a dinosaur tale, that really they don't have it in them anymore to defend the continent that they once believed in. You don't think they're going to row again at Lepanto like they once did, huh? Well, Victor, do you think they are? I, you know, I'm writing a book right now on World War II, and I know that they're so traumatized by losing. I mean, there were 60 million people killed, the vast majority between the Volga and the Atlantic Ocean, some in China, 15 million. But nonetheless, there's something about the European experience. I mean, I can't believe we're just going to say in the 20... Looking for reliable IT solutions for your business? At Innovate, we are the IT solutions

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first century in the last 50 years it completely disappeared in the way that Rome did around 450 AD and just gone forever. There's no fumes of it to be inhaled. So there are people in Europe that are very bright. And one thing about Europeans are that when you do meet conservative Europeans, they're very well informed and they're very, very spirited. When I go over there and I get interviewed by conservative newspapers, these people are very aware of what's happening to their continent.

And they're in the minority, that's for sure, but they're not to be taken lightly. And I don't think they're going to give up their entire civilization without some type of struggle. Victor, Peter here. German history – Peter. How do you do? Peter. Nazis. There's no hygienic way to move to the right in Germany. Likewise, in France, as Marine Le Pen is discovering 10 times a day, if you move to the right, you're called far right, you're called fascist, you're associated with Vichy, so forth. Poland, no. In Poland, there is

no such discrediting history on the right. We now have a government in Poland, a new government in Poland, which is causing The Economist magazine to throw a hissy fit in every single issue. I don't know much about Poland, but it strikes me that if the writers, the good liberals at The Economist are tutting about it, there must be something good going on there. So the question here is Poland, Viktor Orban, the new prime minister in Hungary, they're denounced regularly in the liberal mainstream press. Is there anything good going on there in the far eastern countries, the countries that experienced communism for 40 years? Is there hope? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think there is because they're not subject to the same effects of affluence and leisure for 70 years that Western Europe was. They've always had it rougher.

And as you say, they have a more recent memory of chaos under the Soviet-style system. And then there's one other thing is that when we say right-wing conservative, to the Europeans, that gulf is not so big. I know they have that racial component, but they don't. You talk to a conservative European and you talk about the Second Amendment or gay marriage or abortion, and they think we're nuts. I mean, you get the most right-wing guy in Europe or in France, and they'll think that you shouldn't own weapons, that abortion should be on demand, that gays should be married, except to maybe a few Catholic monarchists or something.

But my point is that it's not as hard really for people to go over to the right in some ways as it is in the United States, especially when – so when we're talking about the Le Pen movement or the skin or all these people, they don't represent a complete antithesis. They have the same social assumptions. They're just saying on this particular matter of migration and what it is to be European and everything, you guys have gone off wrong. So I think it's a little bit easier for them to win adherence than it would be for a truly conservative movement in the United States. I've got two more questions. Which is always social and cultural.

Two more questions before I remand you to James Lilacs and Rob again. Brett Stevens, earlier this week in the Wall Street Journal, wrote a column called America's Year of Living Dangerously. Here's one sentence. In 2016, rogue states will take a hammer to the soft plaster of Obama's resolve. And Brett Stevens' argument is get ready because the people who have been softening – I wrote a column. Go ahead.

In other words, I wrote a column called – Yeah, I wrote a column saying 2016 is going to be the most dangerous year since 1980 because it's like Carter. People knew he was going to go out of office and they thought, wow, if you're Chinese, go into Vietnam. If you're Russia, go into Afghanistan. If you're Iran, get rid of the Shah and take hostages. If you're in Central America, call on the Russians and have communist liberation. So people look at the United States and say, you know what, this is not the normal situation. And this is an aberration where we have a president who's conflicted about the post-war American-led order and he's sympathetic to our grievances.

That may or may not be true, but people are thinking, you know what? If I'm North Korea, now is the time to do something. If I'm Russia, maybe I want to go into the – I could go into Estonia without consequences. Or maybe if I'm Iran, I can get the bomb finished before the next president. Or maybe if I'm ISIS, I can get the bomb finished before the next president. Or maybe if I'm ISIS, I can go into Baghdad. Whatever it is, if you're going to move, it's the time to move because what would Obama do? He'd say, if you go into Baghdad, there's a red line that we can't handle. If you go into Estonia, there's a red line.

There's a stepover line. There's a deadline. Nobody believes him anymore. He has zero credibility. He's a combination of Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain. Here's my last question before I send you back to the boys. Has Donald Trump – at this stage, can we confidently, undefensively say, listen, Donald Trump has done a lot more good than harm in this campaign cycle? Oh, I think he has with one caveat and I don't want to sound like a stuffy establishmentarian, is that he still hasn't articulated a coherent program or protocol, and he still doesn't know how to stop the personal invective that's demagogic and not that other politicians don't do that but he's

got two things going for him and one is that he's running against a potential felon in hillary clinton who represents classical decadence and every every across the spectrum she and her husband and then his reaction to barack obama barack obama has been much more lawless than trump ever would be so that that's what what he's playing on the anger anger at Obama and the repugnance for the Clintons. And that's 48%, 45% of the electorate right there, whether he can get the extra six or seven through sober and judicious campaigning. I'm not sure. Anyway, I sounded like Jeb Bush. You did.

You're an establishment rhino, Victor. And I know because I am one. So last question for me, Victor. This is Rob, just to be clear. Yeah. Marine Le Pen, Jean-Marie Le Pen. We're talking about French politics. Jean-Marie Le Pen.

The younger and more dynamic Le Pen. Right. Well, she's the middle one, right? So Jean-Marie is the dad, the grandfather, true national socialist in every sense of the word. His daughter, Marine, is a little less so. Her niece, also a Le Pen, whose name is Marie or something like that, she is a free market conservative. The closest – really the closest we've got to – she is a free market conservative. The closest, really, the closest we've got to, she is the French Ted Cruz.

Yeah, she's also, her personal life is traditional and religious and the whole 19th century French ideal. Is that going to be replicated, do you think, in the UK, in Germany,

in all the countries now, I mean, in Holland. Yeah, I think that's a good point. It's a really good point because if it is going to be replicated, it's going to be by someone who's young and hip and yet combines her personal life as a reflection of her ideology in a way that, you know, when you get conservatives that talk about conservatism in Europe, I mean, they're always living with somebody they're not married or they have illegitimate kids or they're drug addicts.

But you don't see that. I mean, I have no problem maybe as an American, but she represents a totality or a holistic approach to conservatism that's kind of unusual. And because she's so young and attractive and charismatic, I think she's going to go places. Well, that old idea of the 19th century French glory is very powerful. My French brother-in-law still believes that France is the France of the 19th century,

technologically advanced, militarily powerful, and respected around the world. It's amazing to think that those three things can actually change. No lesson there for America whatsoever. Well, we'll talk to Victor about this and other things later. Thanks for being on the show today, sir. And we look forward to having you on again. Thank you, Victor. Thanks, Victor. Yep. I mean, thinking about national, not national collapse, but national change as France saw as a sort of thing that keeps you up at night. And I, you know, there are times I'm walking through the grocery store. I was just down in Arizona and it was at night. And I, you know, there are times I'm walking through the grocery store. I was just down in Arizona and it was at this incredible, fantastic, immense grocery store that not only

has every single item available in the world for you, food that a king would never have access to in his life. It also has furniture and it's got movies and it's got wine. It's got everything. It's just extraordinary. And you feel lucky to be living at a time like this. And at the same time, you always feel in the back of your mind that it's incredibly fragile and brittle. And who knows when something is going to change. And this little evanescent moment in human history, which now seems like just the way we live, will turn out to be something absolutely wonderful that's gone. It keeps you up at night if you worry about that, but it wouldn't if you slept on a Casper, frankly, because it's a bed so good that no matter what stews in your brain, it seeps out wonderfully into the foam and off you go into leave. Now, the Casper, as you know, we've been telling you this, they're an online retailer of premium mattresses for just a fraction of the price.

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Go to casper.com slash Ricochet and use the coupon code Ricochet at your checkout. We will all sleep better knowing that you did. And we thank Casper for sponsoring this, the Ricochet podcast. Gentlemen, I have to go let the dog in. He's unhappy because it's snowing outside. Oh gosh, he's got fur and he's wet.

Boo hoo. So I'm going to leave it to you to chat for a second here. We're good at that. We can do that. Exactly. Rob, I'm going to leave it to you to chat for a second here. We're good at that. We can do that. Exactly. Rob, I'm going to leave – I'm more interested in your – when the phrase price point, which was an industry phrase in the retail business. Yes, absolutely.

All these industry phrases became now part of the natural sort of – civilians who are not part of that industry. It's got a great price point. I know. It's just simply got to get a great price. It's fine. Sometimes I'll be at a store and I'm looking for an item and they'll point down the aisle and I say, on the end cap because that's store lingo, the end cap that's there. What I love is when you have –

The end cap. That's interesting. I'll use that. When you have terms that the industry uses that nobody understands like for example i need the skew on this what's the skew number i need a skew nobody knows what skew stands for standardized something something stock keeping unit uh peter if you will say something when you say nobody knows what it stands for what you really mean is only I know.

Well, more than that, I used to work at a restaurant, of course, and our POS was a – But here's what bugs me. Wait a minute. I just said POS, which is point of sale, and it also stands for something else. But our POS was the microsystem, and they had there on the register what micros stood for, modular integrated cash register operating system. And I never forgot that, and I see those units to this day. And I want to bring it up, but then I'm kind kind of that guy and i don't want to be even though i'm pretty sure i am that guy so your pos was a pos it was exactly that i'll be right back i i have noticed that too but i've also noticed that my interactions with people uh for

instance my interactions with american airlines the past week and a half, trying to get my bag somehow approximate to my actual physical location. They use the lingo on the customer they're talking to as if you somehow are inside their system. So someone will bark at you. What's the skew? What's the skew? I don't know what that means, lady. You have to speak English. I'm a civilian in your world.

But this is not the time for rants. Or maybe it is. Oh, I think it is the time for rants. James is letting the dog in. Peter, are you – so you asked Victor a question. Oh, wait a minute. I can rant. I can rant.

United Airlines, as long as you want to start airline rants, United Airlines, from here to New York, I bought a meal because I was hungry. I'd missed this. I had to buy a meal on the airplane. Couldn't get a better one, cheaper one in the airport. And it came to $20, $19 and something. And I said, may I have the receipt? I did it on a credit card. May I have the receipt?

It was a trip. I was going to expense certain items. And they said, oh, well, we have a new system. We'll email it to you. May I have your email address. I gave it to them. Nothing arrived. Three days later, nothing arrived. I called. They said, it's a brand new system. We're still working it out. Try again in a week. I tried again in a week. And they said, well, you may file a search request, but that costs $20. unbelievable all right how's that how's that for a vamping rant while waiting for dog for james that's that's pretty good let me

ask let me ask you this question you asked victor a question and i now i want to turn it back on you you said um donald trump net positive oh yes i don't talk about trump too much because people talk about trump too much but he has made this an interesting race. And could you just give me three bullet points on how it's net positive? I'm so happy you asked because that question arises from my talking back. Looking for reliable IT solutions for your business? At Innovate, we are the IT solutions people for businesses across Ireland. From network security to cloud productivity, we handle it all. Installing, managing, supporting and reporting on your entire IT and telecoms environment so you can focus on

what really matters, growing your business. Whether it's communications or security, Innovate has you covered. Visit Innovate today. Innovate, the IT solutions people. My own mind to Rob Long and Mona Charon. When you did her Christmas Eve podcast and you were her guest and the two of you talked and one of Mona's first questions was, Rob, I guess he's not a conservative, but is there anything you can say on behalf of Donald Trump? And neither you nor she, I felt, really did say much on his behalf. And I immediately thought, wait a minute, I'm no Trumpkin,

but A, is it conservative that he wants America to be great again? That this free-floating notion that somehow or other the country is in decline, he recognizes it, he's saying it's not right, it's not American, we want to set this right. Immigration, he's now talking about immigration. And again, there are all kinds of ways of talking about immigration, all kinds of positions you can take. Most of them would be wrong. But the notion, by the way, I'm also coming to the view that in some basic way to understand why people are angry about immigration, you almost have to be in California, where, as Victor said,

particularly in the Central Valley, but Lord knows large parts of Los Angeles, neighborhoods have been completely transformed. Now, my judgment is it's going to be okay in 20 years. Those people are going to speak English, they'll integrate and so forth. But a large event happened, and it did not happen by democratic processes. Every time people were asked their view, they voted to, politicians gave voice to tightening up the border. So it's clear that this happened against- Right, the people clearly wanted border security and a rethink of immigration policy following that border security. And Trump- And what they got was open borders, yeah. And Trump's economic policy, as Larry Kudlow tells us, it's thin. It's bullet points.

But it's pretty good. And then the last point I'd say is. No, no, no. No, Larry Kudlow said his tax policy. Excuse me. Correct. It's a difference. Tax policy is terrible on trade.

He's all wrong on trade. But the tax policy is pretty good. And then the last one is sort of a free-floating subjective thing as well. But it strikes me as important. What Victor was talking about earlier was in response to a question you asked, where the media was lying. And I immediately flashed you, I heard Natan Sharansky give a talk here at Stanford. And he said the worst thing about the Soviet Union in the old days, when he grew up, there was some anti-Semitismism even that wasn't particularly pronounced the economy was terrible but you could live it wasn't like the second world war there was enough food there was

enough shelter there was enough clothing what was debilitating was the constant lies everybody had to have two consciousnesses one in which he repeated all the lies outside and one if you were lucky and had a family where you could trust each other, where you were you. But constantly shifting back and forth between the lying self and the truthful self, it was always blurring the difference. It was just debilitating. And to a large extent, we have political correctness where people are saying to themselves, for 25 years, I haven't been able to say men are men and women are women. These roles may be changing. They may be subject, but still there's something I haven't been able to say. Obvious things they haven't let us say. Lies are creeping into the culture and Donald

Trump is standing there and saying enough with these lies. I've had it. And that's a positive. I think that's, I agree with all those things. I think that's very positive. Here's my concern. My concern is I just did – I did not by any means predict Donald Trump. But who's not being served? What political market is not being spoken to? And it seemed to me the political market not being spoken to were old-style pre-Reagan Democrats. High tariffs, unions, full Social Security and Medicare, and then standard patriotic greatness right a patriotic liberal the the democratic party hadn't put one up in my god when when was the last pay maybe you could make a case it was walter mondale not really maybe maybe george mcgovern because he was a war hero but a patriotic liberal what was the last last time – a true patriot, like a pro-American liberal. It was a big government liberal, but not for progressive causes, that person would win big FDR basically, right? Well, I think the last one was

John Fitzgerald Kennedy, that John Kennedy was the last person who could be plausibly portrayed as a liberal. It meant a different thing to be a liberal in those days, but still big government, solid for the New Deal. He himself would have enacted pieces of what Johnson enacted as the Great Society. But about that Democrat, about that liberal, the entire country knew that he wished the United States of America to prevail and its enemies to lose. He ran to the right on national security against nixon in 60 but but my fear with trump is that and what i what i where i just can't get on the trump bandwagon it not it has nothing really to do with personality or which i find repellent or his language which i despise i mean i'm willing to hold my nose and vote for the guy it's that he's not a conservative he's not not only not a conservative he's a

liberal he's going to do nothing but raise taxes and burnish and build on federal entitlements. There's not a shred of anything he's said or even gestured to, which suggests he understands the economic collapse and ruin we face. And because the solution to that for all the liberals is we don't face that at all. We're going to raise taxes and pay for all that. And I find that, to me, he's a smart guy. He's a good businessman. He understands markets. He sees where the market is, and it's in the FDR side. And I think that's where he's going, and I don't like that. So there you go. Well, if he's nominated and has to raise large amounts of money, it'll be really interesting to see the fundraising letters because I would – right now we've got these ones.

James, can you help us today? James, we need – it's time. Yeah. I would like Donald Trump's fundraising emails to be entirely nothing but transcripts of him just yelling into a microphone and then just somebody prints it out. And that would be authentic because if anything else, you know what? He's absolutely authentic. Those are emails I would actually save. I wouldn't black hole them like I do some of the campaign stuff.

What do I mean by black hole? Well, you know the idea of a black hole, right? It's that super incredibly dense object. Its gravitational field is so strong. Some people say that when they enter the black hole, actually, information is retained because in the universe, you can't destroy information. Stephen Hawking is saying that his earlier theories about black holes may have to be readjusted in light of new ideas that are working at the quantum physics level. Now, is quantum physics involved in SaneBox? Sometimes I think it is, because it's that good.

Now, if you have SaneBox... I was going great courses in my head and you were have SaneBox – That was a SaneBox. I thought it was Great Courses. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I was going Great Courses in my head and you were going SaneBox. Fantastic. Yeah, well, when you're thinking about email, you know sometimes you have great conversations with people you just met or old friends. Somebody shares a few thoughts and you come back with a few of your own. Before you know it, you've got – well, you may have a new fan, a new friend or a customer and even some new ideas. But those emails become 100 and then 500 and it's not not long before you've got thousands of messages in your box

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can spend engaging your audience or just getting to the emails that you want to get to. Try it yourself. Two free weeks of SaneBox. Visit SaneBox.com slash Ricochet to start your trial. No credit cards needed. And after that, you, ricochet listener gets 25 bucks off a membership, which is the deepest discount you will find anywhere in the world. Any again, it's S A N E B O X.com slash ricochet. Well, you know, Peter, your towns may be changing, but, uh, in California, people around the rest of the country really don't care as long as the produce comes right. As long as the great agricultural, as long as we get our Clementines in the market, we're fine. Unless, of course, you're at a bookstore looking for a clementine, which would be ridiculous, right? They don't have fruit. No, but they do

have clementine. Darling clementine. Booked by Andrew Klavan. It's his latest. One of many. And we welcome him back. That was great. That was a great segue to Drew Klavan. It was a double segue there. It was a double segue there. It was a little twist. And I heard a crash, which may indicate Drew was running through the kitchen and knocking over pots and pans in his eagerness to get to the phone. Hey, Drew, it's good to have you back. We've been talking.

Good to be here. I wrote that book like 30 years ago. My new book is called Game Over. Oh. Oh, well, I was informed was informed incorrectly that I blame my producer. Well, maybe if the first book had done better, the Clementine book had done better, you wouldn't have to have written all the others. Exactly, exactly. I've been chained to my desk. Well, it's game over, some say, if Trump gets the nomination, you are under the pressure that it might represent something of a paradigm shift and maybe not the best one. Explain. Yeah, well, you know, look, I'm very

much not a Trump fan. And I think that, you know, when you look at that, look at these candidates we have, they're actually pretty good. Marco Rubio, you know, he's kind of a mainstream Republican, but to the right of past mainstream Republicans. And Ted Cruz is on the outside of the mainstream, but he's the kind of candidate who does come along and win every now and again. Sometimes the base gets what they want. You know, you get a Ronald Reagan or somebody like that. Trump, as far as I can tell, is a left-wing Democrat, a guy with no principles whatsoever. He was pro-abortion, 100% pro-abortion before he was against it.

He's used Kelo to try and take people's private property away. He's been for single-payer health care. He's a left-wing Democrat, basically, who is using, he speaks, he says things that he knows will tap in to this absolute and justifiable fury on the right about the fact that we have been silenced and attacked, that the media misportrays us, that we have been told that we can't speak the truth that's right in front of our eyes. If you say anything bad about Islam, you're some kind of bigot. If you point out the crime rates in black neighborhoods, it's because you're a racist. Whatever you say as a right winger is portrayed as some kind of hatred, and people are furious about it. And the blue collar people who are both Democrats and Republicans, they're not really to the right, they are furious about the fact, they're not really to the right.

They are furious about the fact that they've been abandoned, that their manufacturing jobs are gone. You know, when you listen to Barack Obama talk about these people, he talks about them like they're bugs under a microscope. Right. He says, oh, yes. They're clingers, right? Yeah, they're angry. They're clinging. You never hear him say, and what we're going to do to replace those manufacturing jobs is we're going to have technical training to bring them into the new age. It never says anything about policy. It's

always this kind of professorial explanation of why they can't stand his guts, you know? So Trump is speaking into that. He is a demagogue. He is not what he says. I don't care what he says. Sometimes what he says is true. I don't care. You know, it's not that. He's just playing into that anger. He will say anything. And what drives me nuts is his supporters keep saying, his supporters keep saying, well, yes, he gave money to Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi to help them win a majority in Congress. But he only did that because he's a businessman. So in other words, he has no principles. He'll only do what suits him. What makes these people think he won't throw them under the bus to suit him? You know, if he has no principles, then how can you trust him? And so,

look, America throws these guys up from time to time, you know, charlatans and demagogues. In a democratic society, you're going to get them. So far, we've always pulled back before they've really gotten too much power. And I hope we will again. I sort of think Trump's going to fail in the actual primaries, but this is a very weird election. Well, surprisingly, this is Rob, by the way, surprisingly, you are echoing, I mean, I know you weren't on the line five, ten minutes ago, but this is pretty much what Peter Robinson and I were saying.

Peter was sort of saying the same thing about the sort of the PC muzzle that Trump sort of swatted away and, you know, cheered for it. Rightly so, in my opinion. But let me can we ask you this? Just just just you were talking about politics a year ago, maybe over a year ago. You and I were sitting having a cup of coffee or something, and we were talking about this election coming up. This is a year ago, and I think I said something. Well, that Jeb Bush is going to raise a whole lot of money, and you looked at me like I was from another planet. And you said, so matter of fact, you said, Jeb Bush is never going to be president. And I remember saying, what?

He's not going to win? You said he's not going to win the primary, is what you said. And I remember thinking, wow, that's an amazingly bold prediction. So here's my question. How the hell do you know that? Well, first of all, because you don't have to be the base to win the Republican nomination. The Republican Party is basically a center-right party. I mean, this drives the base insane. They keep thinking, they keep talking about the establishment this and the establishment that. It's not the establishment. It's the majority.

It's a center-right party. It's to the left of me. I mean, I'm much more in the base than in the center. Jeb Bush has zero appeal to the base. He has none. I mean, i mean not you know they can stomach rubio because rubio really except for that gang of eight thing rubio really is pretty far right as a you know he's a pretty conservative guy you know william f buckley said about the bushes i think he said about it about the first president bush he said he's conservative but he's not a

conservative and the article makes all the difference. And I think that that's exactly right. These are guys with conservative instincts. In fact, in fact, Jeb Bush is the most conservative of all of them. But on the, this is the thing that drives me crazy. It's not just PC anger that fuels the Trumpians. It's also anger with this insouciant establishment that is too good to pay attention to the base i mean because because they talk you read the wall street journal and they talk about the illegal immigration problem and it's like well you know i love these mexicans they mow my lawn and they're perfectly nice people i think they're wonderful they don't talk about yeah that they're taking people's jobs away and they're uh you know, causing their emergency rooms to have problems.

They're causing crime in their neighborhoods. You know, I'm not saying they're bad people. I'm just saying when you open your borders, everybody comes in. And it's a problem for people who don't have the kind of money that the people of The Wall Street Journal and who read The Wall Street Journal have. So Jeb Bush, when he says, you know, coming to America is an act of love, I know, you know, illegally, I know what he's saying. I understand what he's saying. I don't think he's crazy. I don't think he's a non-conservative, but you can't talk like that and have the base follow you anywhere. And you can't win without some of the people on the base.

Plus, and this is important. This is another thing the Wall Street Journal dismisses. They think everything is policy. It's not. It's also personality. It's also salesmanship. It's also being a good candidate. Every time Jeb Bush stands up to Donald Trump, Donald Trump bounces him down the court like a basketball. It's embarrassing. It's like watching that kid in the schoolyard who just gets his shorts pulled up over his head. I wouldn't know anything about that. It's just hard to watch. All right. So, all right.

You do the – how often do you do it? I don't know if we post on Ricochet. We should. How often do you do your videos? You do them like twice a week, right? Well, now what I'm doing is I'm doing a podcast for The Daily Wire. So I'm doing it four days a week, Monday through Thursday, and I hope they'll also let me do some videos too. I think they will.

So you're doing a podcast now, and so we should put a link to that. We should figure out a way to get our listeners to hear it. What do you like to psych yourself up into, sort of some kind of rage podcast? By the way, I know you. I don't think that's going to be that hard for you to do. But where do you have – I feel like the least rageful guy on the right basically. Are you optimistic?

Are you thinking good things? I'm hoping good things. I mean, see, I have a different attitude than a lot of the guys on the right. A lot of the guys on the right are just absolutely – it's all over. We're done. It's through. See, I have a tragic view of life. I think everything that lives dies.

Our republic will fall. But I'm trying to keep it from falling today. I look at being a conservative like being a doctor. You know you're going to lose eventually. But if a guy comes into your office and you say to him, you know, I'm sorry, I have bad news for you, you're going to die. And he says, well, when? And you say, well, in 30, 40 years. You know, that's a little I have bad news for you. You're going to die. And he says, well, when? And you say, well, 30, 40 years. You know, that's that's a little too much pessimism for me.

So I feel like I feel like the republic is still strong. I feel like Obama has been an immensely destructive, failed president, a truly un-American president. You know, I won't mince words about it, but but I still think the country's there. I think we have a good shot. I think Hillary's a lousy candidate. The only reason she's gotten this far is because there's no one opposing her. But she's old. She's sick. She's dumb. She's unappealing. I mean, it's just I think Rubio can beat her. I think Cruz can beat her. Now, some of my expert friends tell me Cruz can't beat her. I think he can beat her, too, if he learns a little bit how to talk to the rank and file. But I think we can beat her.

Is there a German compound word for someone who's optimistic within larger pessimistic brackets? That's an issue. I'm sure there must be, right? Klavan Lieben. Klavan Hopen. It must be that. It must be that. It's all the Klavan.

So who's your guy, Drew? Well, look, my attitude is trust not in princes, you know, to save you. So I'm happy to get a guy. Let's out Jeb. I'm happy to get a guy who follows the rules and leaves me alone. That's what, see, I don't think, I don't think it's up to them to make America great again. I think it's up to us and individuals to make America great. So I'd be happy with Rubio. I think if I, if I could select hand selected president, I'd probably pick Cruz. I think his dedication to the constitution is really profound. I think I'd probably pick Cruz. I think his dedication to the Constitution

is really profound. I think he's a smart guy. I think he would actually do stuff to stem the tide of regulation, which to me is the great curse of the country right now. It's the regulation of debt more than anything. And of course, the chaos in the Middle East. Those are the things that worry me. I think he'd be the best at dealing with that. But I think Rubio would be fine. You know, to be honest with you, I think Jeb Bush would do a fine job once in office. I think he will never win. That's the problem. And you think you think Ted Cruz could win? He's not too hard edged and obnoxious to carry the women's vote, to carry the moderate vote, to carry the, gee, I don't know, I'm in the middle, who seems like a nice person here vote.

You know, it's a problem. I'm not lying to you. It's a problem. But his campaign thus far has been so smart. He should have 2% and he's really in there punching if Trump collapses. Rich Lowry had something good the other day in which he said, Ted Cruz compares himself to Ronald Reagan. If Trump collapsed – anything like it. But Nixon was not a particularly appealing personality as a personality. He just worked harder and ran smarter campaigns and wanted it more. And if you know, I've gotten to know Ted Cruz a little bit over the years, but I know several people who know him much better than I do.

And I've been struck that although those of us who know him a little say, what a smart guy that man is, those who know him really well say, no, no, no. The brains you get used to, it's the sheer relentlessness that's so impressive. And the discipline. I mean, you remember that old song, I'll be around no matter how you treat me now, you know, like it's about the guy who waits until your relationship falls apart and then you come back to him. He's kind of played that game brilliantly. And almost all politicians don't have the discipline to do that. He has sort of continued relent, you know, relentless is a great word.

He's continued relentlessly to state the conservative case so that if at some point people look at Trump and go, oh, wait a minute, he's a phony who actually believes those things. He's standing there. You know, I'll be around. And and I think that it's been very impressive. I've been very impressed with him when when he started out. I would have said he was a long shot and a long shot to win the presidency as well. Now, I kind of think, I mean, what is Hillary going to do in a debate with this guy? He'll he'll slice her to pieces. Yep.

The question is whether or not the middle, the people who pay no attention whatsoever, will find themselves voting for him because it makes them feel good. That's what a lot of this is about. I want to feel good about myself voting for this person for these reasons. So we'll see how that plays out with Cruz. He doesn't have the – I don't think people people feel the undecided person new to his personality is not going to feel ennobled. Yes. And I'm less worried about the independence than I am about the blue collar vote, which is a part of a lot, big part of the independence. I shouldn't say that the blue collar vote is a big part of it, but they're scared. And I always say this. When you go back and look at Ronald Reagan's speeches, he always said, we will not let you fall off the last rung of the ladder. We will keep the safety net in place.

And Cruz forgets to say that. Recently, when he talks about immigration, he's good that way. But he forgets to say, you know, like we – same thing with Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney used to say, oh, we're going to help the entrepreneurs. And all the guys who work for the entrepreneurs are thinking, I don't like my boss. Why do I care if you help him? They're not thinking that next step that, oh, he's giving me a job. And I think that what they have – these people are scared and you have to talk to them and tell them we're not cold-hearted.

We're not here to destroy the welfare state. We're just here to rein it in so it keeps working basically. Here's something else, and this is really small and personal and petty and should not affect one's vote, especially when choosing an important office like this. But I really want to have a guy that the left and the media have a hard time ridiculing. Oh, that – yeah. I mean you know how they're going to go after Cruz. But Rubio is difficult for them to make fun of because he's incredibly articulate. He's not a stumble-tongue like we're used to. He doesn't fit the

cliches. He's got a little bit of insulation because, hey, he's ethnic, right? I would love to see them, what sort of caricature they conjure to paint him as the evil child-eating, soulless, kill-the-poor kind of man.

But maybe that's something we'll hear on one of your podcasts coming up. Drew, thanks very much. Everybody, read his books, listen to his words, watch his videos. Live, laugh, love is that stupid poster in the hotel I was just in said. And we'll see you back, preferably before the election. Thank you, Drew. Thanks. So many authors on, and both these guys have written fiction,

both Victor Davis Hanson and Drew, of course, famous fiction writers. And I wanted to ask them again. I keep wanting to talk to somebody. Gee, maybe I'll do it on my own podcast. I'm still with you. About the Cicero book that's just out by Robert Harris and also a book by Tom Holland, a historian, who's written a great new book about the collapse of the republic and the rise of Caesar. And it's this fascinating time in history, which we keep going back to.

And you always wonder whether or not there's the parallels to our own, which is every big, strong, muscular, confident civilization eventually looks at Rome and wonders what lessons it can learn. But it's entirely possible, of course. Victor said that when Rome fell in 450-whatever, whenever I hear that, I always think, you know, but it didn't, kind of, because there was another version of it that stayed for a thousand years, that fell to Islamic invaders 50 years

before Columbus was born. That's how long Rome hung along. And if you'd like to learn more about that, well, the great courses might be the place to go. You can go around the internet and look at this and look at that and figure out higgly-piggly your information, or you can go to a source that's got great courses for you. And that's

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you must go to thegreatcoursesplus.com slash ricochet. That's thegreatcoursesplus.com slash ricochet. And do so to thank them for sponsoring this, the Ricochet Podcast. Did we lose Rob? No, I'm right here. I'm sorry. Oh, you are. I just had a little iPad problem. I know you have to run.

And I wanted to tell everybody to go and listen to your latest martini shot in which you were talking about spoilers. Yes. I had you in mind, James. I imagine that you did. And it's very amusing and you make some great points there and fundamentally also you're wrong. At the end when you're talking about how we watch movies over and over again for our

favorite point, you're absolutely right. And we stay on him too, by the way. I have a hard time turning him off. Once they got me, I'm there. There are a few movies that when I'm going around and i see that it's on i say well here i am for the next two hours because i'm going to watch because there are moments that you want to see again but that said there is an experience in seeing those moments for the first time that is different and deserves to be preserved right Right? I mean, right?

Well, yes, but the burden, if it's a gigantic cultural thing happening, the burden is on the person to secrete themselves if they need to or sequester themselves. It isn't to go flapping your arms and saying, don't tell me, don't tell me. You guys can't talk about that, which happens in like offices and everywhere all the time.

No, you can't talk about something else because I haven't seen it yet. The burden should be on the person who wants to be kept in the dark. Oh, I think in most cases. At least for 24 hours, 48 hours. In most cases, I would agree. So, Peter, have you seen Star Wars yet? I have. Oh, that's right.

We talked about this. So we don't want to talk about that because we have and it's old. Let me ask you this, guys. I've seen The Revenant. Have you seen that yet? That's the one where Leo gets it from the bear, right? Correct. Does he get it from the bear?

Do I have a lot to do? Because there's really no – if I say what I thought of the movie, that will spoil it. Am I right? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Thrillingly exciting. Fast-paced, beautifully shot, first 20 minutes, followed by two hours of the most pretentious tedium you have ever witnessed in your life. The only reason my sons and I stayed in our seats was that we kept thinking a movie that opened that well couldn't. There must be something exciting or interesting just in the next seat never never pretentious tedious horrible was that a spoiler there you

have it folks uh take that under advisement next time you go to the theater if you're on television however you can and you have netflix you can in screen you can stream the show that all of america apparently is talking about making a murderer Murderer. Have either of you – No, it's on my list. It's quite extraordinary. It's ten hours of documentary about a guy who the documentary so far at least on five episodes and would suggest has been railroaded not once but twice. What's fascinating is this is Fargo without all of the Coen Brothers stuff. This is very much – this is the culture up here I know quite well,

the Wisconsin-Minnesota culture. And it's also the culture that Scott Walker had to fight because you see the power of the state to absolutely upend somebody's life if they so desire. It is, in many ways, a chilling and fascinating piece, and I recommend it to everybody else. But documentary, it's true. Yes, it is. It's absolutely true. And they've got tons of footage because this case was a cause

celebre before uh the second phase of it happened they just have so much network television they have so many interviews but i'll leave you with this like serial anytime you're watching a show about uh you know somebody who gets involved in a criminal situation and you're the show is trying to keep you on the hook as to whether or not they eventually went to jail. Yes. When all of the phone interviews with the main subject are obviously on a phone line that's piped into a prison,

you know how it's going to end. But, uh, he's right. Right. You're please deposit. You have a call from Winfield Correctional Systems. Yes.

Right. Well, gentlemen, we got to go. Rob's got to go. Peter's got to go. I got to run. I got to go. Life awaits. But you know what, folks?

There are three things you can do. Casper.com slash Ricochet. Sleep better. SaneBox.com slash Ricochet. Manage your email better. The Great Courses Plus.com slash Ricochet. Get smarter and invest smarter and learn other things. All of these things are there for you to make your life better.

That's what we're here for. And to just have a better conversation and a sane, safe place you can go to discuss matters without people just pouring the bilge on you as they do elsewhere. That's where ricochet.com comes in. Next week, guys, as usual, it will be fun and we'll see everybody. And in fairness, before this is over, I have to take some of the back. In fairness, I just got a text from our producer who said,

I'm crazy. The revenant is riveting. There's a difference. He likes everything. All right. Next week, boys. He's talking about the other movie called the revenant was actually set in a shipyard construction and it actually is about literally riveting.

So that's what he means. Oh, I see. It's actually riveting. See you next week. Okay, yeah. On that pun... Wait, we're off next week. We'll see you in a fortnight.

Enjoy your January. Fortnight. ¶¶ This is our fault in the road Love's last episode There's nowhere to go Oh no, you made your choice Now it's up to me To bow our gracefully

Though you hold the key But baby Whenever you call me I'll be there Whenever you want me I'll be there Whenever you need me I'll be there. Whenever you need me, I'll be there. I'll be around.

I knew just what to say. Now I found out today that all the words Had slipped away But I know There's always a chance A tiny spark Will remain And sparks turn Into flames

And love can Burn once again But I know you know Whenever you call me I'll be there Whenever you want me I'll be there Whenever you need me

I'll be there I'll be around Yeah Ricochet Join the conversation Whenever you call me I'll be there Whenever you want me I'll be there whenever you call me. I'll be there whenever you want me.

I'll be there even if I have to walk. I'll be there. I'll be around.