The Ringer NBA Show - 2024 Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame Inductees and the MVP Awards Race | Real Ones

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Howard Beck and Raja Bell take a look at the recently announced Naismith Hall of Fame inductees and discuss some of their NBA careers, including Vince Carter and Chauncey Billups (02:00). Then, they dive into the MVP awards race and share their thoughts on who should come out on top (24:00). Later, producer Kerm joins to get your mailbag questions answered by Howard and Raja (38:00). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have news shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us on the press box.

It's the real ones. Howard Beck, senior writer for the ringer, sitting in today for Logan Murdoch, who's load managing before the playoffs. Yeah, podcasters need to load manage too, folks. It's a long season. So it's just me and Raja Bell here with you today. Raja, I kind of feel like the substitute teacher.

I just hope you're not going to like shoot spitballs, write shit about me on the chalkboard when I'm not looking, any of that stuff. How are you doing? You've got to help me out here today. I'm a little nervous sitting in for Logan. Never had to be Logan before. I'm going to be honest, man. You're doing really well, Howard.

Thanks. I'm not. I'm not just saying that. It's a very difficult thing to go from being kind of the guest slash analyst to being the driver of the car. So you've handled yourself well out of the shoot. We can collab a little bit if you feel the need for that, but you're doing well so far. I know you've got a lot of coaching experience. I'm counting on you to coach me up, Raja.

I mean, I'm already taking notes, so I'll share as we go along. Can't wait. Fortunately, I hosted a couple of pods in the past in my previous lifetimes at other places. We are going to talk today about MVP voting because the ballots are landing. I think like literally any second now, we're taping here at noon Eastern on Monday, and I am anxiously, eagerly awaiting the NBA sending us the ballots. So I want to get into MVP balloting a little bit. I get your thoughts.

Roger, we also have a new Hall of Fame class announced over the weekend, including two guys that you played against. And of course, we will have listener emails queued up by our guy Kerm. Roger, let's just jump right into Hall of Fame stuff first. This was kind of a controversial, weirdly controversial class. Some people thought a weirdly lackluster class, a little disrespectful to the class. But a lot of consternation, it felt like, especially with Michael Cooper in particular,

John Hollinger had a great column at The Athletic about, mostly about Michael Cooper, but about the process itself and how opaque the process is. We don't know who votes, how they vote, why they vote, rationale for the votes. So we can get to any of that, but real quick. So Vince Carter is in. Chauncey Billups is in. Michael Cooper, as I mentioned, Doug Collins, former coach of the Bulls, Pistons, Wizards, and Sixers. Did you ever play for Doug?

No, I never play for Doug. Okay. Pacers owner Herb Simon is in. They do love inducting NBA owners. And Jerry West, who is already in twice as a player and member of the 1960 Olympics team is going in a third time as a contributor. Before I get to Vince and Chauncey, the guys you played against, any quick thoughts on the class on the Hall of Fame process?

Is this something that you pay much attention to? What do you think? Yeah, I don't pay any attention really to the Hall of Fame. Some of my former teammates have been inducted. I know it's an incredible honor. I'd only be able to imagine what that might feel like. But for me, personally, as an NBA journeyman and current podcaster, I don't give a damn about the Hall of Fame.

You know, interestingly, though, because I'm not tapped in like that into what the streets are necessarily saying about this year's class. and I mean we'll get deeper into them I guess person by person but it did feel like when you said maybe there are a few names on there where I'm like Hall of Fame huh not not taking anything away because I haven't done a deep dive and fairness into their careers or or achievements or anything like that but just as the name rings out and you say it I'm like huh what you can do it's not like the year when like Shaq Iverson and Yao all went in together or like Ray Allen and Steve Nash and I'm focusing on the NBA guys in particular because that's mostly what we talk about here.

So no, no shade to everybody else who gets inducted. But like we those of us who cover the NBA and talk a lot about the NBA, we tend to judge it based on the caliber of an, of NBA player. And often on their, their NBA resume specifically, even though the Hall of Fame, it's the totality of your career. It's what you did in college or what you did in international play. It's everything. But yeah, it was, it's different.

And like, you know, Vince Carter. it's funny how quickly we forget just how freaking good the dude was for most of his career. Like Vince did not make, we'll talk about him first. Vince did not make, he was never top five MVP balloting, right? I think his highest finish was like 10th or something. Yeah, never higher than 10th of the MVP voting. Eight-time All-Star, but only two-time all-MBA, a second team and a third team. but he played 22 years, which is phenomenal in itself.

Finished at 43 years old, which is incredible. But here's how dominant he was, Roger. This is how quickly we forget this. And in an era when scoring was not as high, when pace was not as high, Vince Carter averaged 20 plus points for 10 straight seasons, including a high of 27.6 points a game in 2001, his third season. A couple other things happened that season, one of which was that your 76ers,

Rajabell, played Vince Carter's Raptors in the second round of the 2001 playoffs. You guys won in seven games. Vince averaged 30 in that series with six rebounds a game in 5.6 assists. You, however, Raja, I looked it up. I was looking like, I wonder if Raja, like, guarded him on some key possessions. Raja, you played five minutes in the series. I don't know what you did to piss off Larry Brown. series in the series. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know what you did to piss off Larry. I had more Snickers bars on the bench that series than minutes played in the actual series. Were those the mini snickers that you got like on? No, those are the full size? Full bar, baby. Okay. Yeah. I think Larry was obviously just resting you waiting to spring you on Kobe in the finals because he knew.

He could see the future. You had a great vantage point, though. What do you remember of Vince Carter in that series? So it's funny that you would team me up like that because when you were talking about Vince and how dynamic he could be offensively, I tell this story all the time. And I'm not sure whether it's because of where I was in the infancy of my career. And I had literally kind of just gotten there. And I wasn't used to watching, you know, playoff basketball, certainly up close and personal.

You know, I had seen some regular season games sitting over there on the bench. But I had never seen like the tenor of the game ramp up like that. And the exhibition, the scoring exhibition between, between Vince and Alan Iverson in that series, to this day, maybe. And again, I'm saying could have been because of where I was as a young player in my career. It's the best basketball I've ever seen up close and personal watching. It was, it just blew me away. It imprinted on me in a way that it was incredible. And there were people outside of Vince, obviously, and Allen that played fantastic in that series.

It was a great series. Game 7, you know, Vince goes back to get his degree, I think, and misses a shot where the whole, everyone's fortunes could have changed. But he was incredible. He was a dynamic athlete that if you let him get shoulders even with you and into the paint, he was rocketing towards the rim in a way that very, very people could stop him from finishing. Had a nice jump shot, had a wicked, you know, mid-range kind of push. most up game fade away. I mean, he jumped so high, you couldn't get to it. So he was,

he was really, really tough. He's the type of guy that could roll out of bed. When you say he average 20, a game for 10 years, while it is surprising to me, I tell you he could probably roll out of bed in his prime as an, as an athlete in a basketball player, an average 20. Yeah. He's one of those guys who I think we downgrade him or don't think of him as highly in part because, partially because his pyrotechnics, I think, overwhelmed everything. We stopped paying attention to the fundamentals of his game because, or didn't pay as much attention because he was just such a spectacular entertainer, right? One of the greatest in-game dunkers we've ever seen. And we get caught up in that a little bit. We got caught up in a

little bit of the next MJ stuff, which I wrote about recently regarding Anthony Edwards. You weren't on the show that day, but Logan and I did talk about it a couple weeks ago, just about like that, you know, there were all the guys who got thrown into that next MJ thing. And Vince was one of the ones who was most, like, just, just recoiled the hardest from it, just really hated it. And he was a North Carolina guy, too. So it was like double, triple for him, the pressure and the comparisons. But yeah, you know, big physical shooting guard with springs in his legs who could, you know, fly out of the gym and dunk. And so like the Michael stuff. So there's so many other things that were

shrouded around Vince during his career. And yeah, like he didn't have a lot of the other accolades or the hardware. So it's hard, but I do feel like maybe we needed the distance from his career to properly assess him. And yeah, when I start looking over the resume,

does he have as many accolades as a lot of other guys in the hall? Maybe not. But he helped define that era. And I sometimes think Raja of the Hall of Fame as like, could you tell the story of the NBA during that period of time

without this player? And I think that's the way to look at him. I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. And if that's the question you're asking, I don't think you can, right? And I would take it as I would go back my senior year in high school, Vince, Vince would have been a junior maybe, or my rising senior year, he was going to be a rising junior. We were at five star up in Cariopolis, PA. And I heard about this kid, you know, there was no way to really know about anybody in Daytona Beach when you were from Miami at the time. Like, you just, unless you got a phone call, you didn't know. So I show up at this

court where his kid's playing. And I mean, it's incredible where he's playing in terms of where the rim relates to his chest at the time. I was like, what the hell is that? And so I was a fan then. And then I watched him at North Carolina. So when you talk about Basketball Hall of Fame, like even at North Carolina, I mean, he was a part of, that's an amazing franchise to begin with. But he had some moments at North Carolina, some signature donks, some signature moments that that I think would help bolster his case. And in the NBA, you know, slam dunk competition, what he did for that? Like, there were real moments. So to answer your question on whether you could kind of define that error without including him in it, I think that would be hard to do. So I'm okay with that one. I like Vince.

And by the way, like not only one of the greatest in game dunkers of all time, but what are the greatest dunk contest performances of all time? Ever. Like the elbow dunk. I was just rewatching the other day. Like, it's just, it's insane. And I think he actually, I was looking up, like, he made some comments afterward about like, you have to be really careful because like you could break your fucking arm basically. If you don't do this right. Dislocate a shoulder or something like that. Can you imagine if you were the Raptors watching that unfold in real time? Like, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's pretty funny. And then, and, and, you know, he weirdly because he, I mean, you know, weirdly because he's so great in the dunk competition. But like, if they had a,

like a dunk league. And that was like he was probably, he would have probably won every dunk competition he ever entered. Because that's what he done. Like that was his thing. And you could see it. Not that this means anything to the Hall of Fame, but I just think it's interesting that some guys get out there and dunk

and they have no presence when they dunk. Like the dunk is phenomenal. And there's just no presence when you pull it off. So it leaves the arena kind of like, well, all right. Like he was a showman. You know? And so that was, that was always cool.

And playing against him, I'm just telling you, as far as guarding people, he was interesting, Howard, because I don't think he necessarily had the same type of laser-focused killer mentality that a Kobe or a Mike or some of those guys had. So you might catch him on a night where he was kind of in chill mode. But man, when he, and this was probably, in fairness, a little later in his career, this wasn't necessarily the Toronto events or maybe even the prime nets events.

but just a little bit past that you could catch him on nights where he might not be as interested in going after your neck but on the nights where he was it was problem and that was part of the knock on him too right again the unfair standard of michael was if you're not a killer like michael too if you're not going for the throat every time like mike like it was all these other things it was never just about the talent or how high you jumped it was like you you have to be uh as as laser focused as him too and so it was it was always such a tough thing um so you You guys, the Sixers win that series against Vince's Raptors. Seven games, and it was a single point.

It was 8887 was the final score in Game 7. Vince has 20.7 rebounds, nine assists, but he goes six for 18 from the field, and that was the day where, as you noted, controversially at the moment, and maybe to this day, flew to North Carolina and back the day of Game 7 said he could attend his college graduation. he had finished up, I think, maybe in the offseason or whatever was like doing, you know, correspondence courses to finish his degree. What do you remember of that day? By the way, one other quick note from that box score as I was scrolling through just to make me feel extra old. Del Curry was still playing for the Raptors had seven points that came like.

Dell was on the Raptors. Dude, I know, like intellectually, and by my memory, I can remember that I started covering the league with Del Curry was still a player. I do remember this, but it's jarring that I'm covering a league with Steph, where Steph has been in the league now for, you know, a dozen years or whatever it's been. I've talked to Steph a zillion times. I see Dell on the mic all the time as a broadcaster, and I just think of him as Steph's dad.

And so now when I'm seeing a box score of a series that happened during my time covering the league, I wasn't at that game. But I don't know. For some reason, extra jarring. I feel extra old. I got like 17 new gray hairs. just reading the box. I hear that and I just say this.

Larry Brown had come to me all series, not all series, since maybe game three where he realized like we don't have anything that's going to stop Vince Carter. And he would come to me because I guarded Allen in practice, you know, whenever we practiced,

I tried to at least. And he asked me over and over again. You could see him over there huddled with like his brain trust of like Herb and John Custer and David Hanners and all of those dudes. And then he'd come over and he'd be like, hey, you think you could guard Vince Carter? And I'd be like, yes, I could guard. You know, I'm saying whatever I could say to get on the court, right? Like, I have no idea whether I could guard Vince Carter.

But he asked me like four or five times. And my answer was always yes. And he never felt comfortable playing me in that. But when you say that Dell played in game seven, I'm fairly certain at that point in his career, I could have guarded Dell. So there's no good reason you didn't play me in that game. You got a real grape next time you see Larry Brown. What do you recall about the controversy about Vince that day?

So, weirdly, I didn't know anything about him going to that graduation. Like, that wasn't something that was like percolating around our locker room in any way, shape, or form before the game. So I don't know to what degree any of my teammates knew it, but it wasn't something that was just like in the air. I remember hearing about it kind of like everybody else did, like after he missed the shot. And it was one of those shots that, remember how. the Kauai shot just hung on the rim against the Sixers and it went in. And it felt like it sat there for three minutes. His shot was kind of the same way in the air.

It was like, oh my God. Like he just hit that. And the way the series had went, I think for the most part, those shots were made. So you were like, well, shit, he got the ball last. Him and Allen have been going at it the way they've gone at it. And he wasn't his best that day. I remember that. But he was willing his way to giving his team a chance.

and I really just thought that he had made the shot from where I was sitting. And then it missed. And then afterwards when I got home, I started hearing that he had went to his graduation. And look, to each their own, everyone's got a different game day routine. Everyone operates in that space a little differently. I was a creature of habit. That would have definitely had an impact one way or another on how I performed. I can't tell you unequivocally that it did on him.

But I found out like everybody else, Howard was post-game. And it was just like, oh shit, did he really? And it doesn't matter because we're going to the finals. Good for him. And how different is history if Vince makes that shot? I mean, it's as tight as that game. It's a one point game. It's a one point game seven.

And it's, Iverson's legacy is different. Vince's legacy is different. That's right. And sorry, it's my bad because we didn't go to the finals. Like we went to the Western Conference finals at that point. Or Eastern Conference finals.

Yeah. It was a semi-final. It was a semi-final series. Yeah. But it's, but what unfolds from there, you know, just, you know, Iverson's now out and Vince is going to the conference finals and maybe going to the finals to face Kobe and Shaq. And I'm more than likely not sitting here with you doing a podcast, having been a 13-year NBA vet, because to your point, I hadn't played at all. I didn't start playing until like game three of the next series when we couldn't guard Big Dog and Ray Allen. So if that shot goes in, I mean, the ripple effect of that is probably me not getting to live my dream in the way I did.

Wow. Wow. Let's talk Chauncey real quick. I think people would probably have less of a debate about Chauncey making it. You know, if for no other reason, then like, you know, Chauncey goes to back-to-back finals, wins a championship, is finals MVP in 2004. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, Chauncey, as we know, like part of the, the, the allure of his resume or what's intriguing about it is he bounced around, you know, four or five teams before he settles in with the pistons and becomes the Chauncee, who becomes like a legend in the finals and all this. But Chauncey had three all-MBA appearances, a second and two-thirds.

He finished fifth and sixth in MVP voting in a couple years. So he was, you know, more in that conversation. But interestingly, Raja, because we're so fixated on scoring in this league, Chauncey never averaged 20 points in a single season. He had 19.5 in 2009-10 with Denver. That was his only time even over 19 points a game. He's a point guard who never averaged 10 assists or even nine. His high there was 8.6 in the 2005-6 season. But he was all NBA.

The years he was all NBA, these are the other guards who were all NBA. Kobe, Nash, Wade, Gilbert Arenas, McGrady, Iverson, Brandon Roy, Chris Paul, Tony Parker. Like those are over the years, the three years that he got all NBA, those were the other guards.

Like, it's a really great company. Any quick thoughts or memories of going up against Chants? Not as many as going against Vince. Choncy, I would say, not nearly the aesthetic draw, maybe as Vince would have to his game. But it's one of those, if you know ball, you know.

Like, if you know, you know what makes that team go. And everything that he does within the course of a game and a season or a series to put his team over and over again in positions to be successful and ultimately win championships, it couldn't be discounted for the Pistons. I mean, he's, he's one of those guys that if you said, what's his like defining characteristic as a player, I just tell you he wins. like he's a winner he's a leader like he galvanized he galvanizes troops you know like yeah i might not be able to say me a great phenomenal shooter even though he was like you know or or magician with the ball even though he was great with the ball but i think more than anything you'd you'd say man that dude is a winning leader yeah yeah because we're we're used to like if you want to talk about elite players we think about who's like dominant dominant dominant offensive player dominant dominant

defensive player, dominant score, dominant playmate, like something that is so clearly elite. And you're like, Chauncey, that's, you're right. That's the defining characteristic. I think you put it perfectly. He was a winner. And there's no one thing that leaps out. He's not leaping out of the gym, right? He's not, he's not dropping 30, 35. He just got the job done. Great leader. And just his teams were always on point. You know, Carmelo's best seasons, both in Denver and New York were the years that he had Chauncey with him. And that was no small thing. You can see that effect.

Yeah, I think that those guys, and I should probably put as like a little, you know, one B to that or one C to the winning and leadership, it's communication, right? Because all great leaders, you know, have that ability to communicate with the Rip Hamilton's and the Tashon princes and the, you know, Rashid Wallace, and Ben Wallace is, like to get all of those dudes at Lindsay Hunters, all of those guys to kind of understand like, here's what we're going to do. Now, you know, they got to be bought in and they play a part in that too. But when you get a mellow who's had great seasons and he plays a certain way to to buy into what you're selling and he plays even better, like there have got to be clear lines of communication. And for whatever reason, guys have to be buying what you're selling. And I think he had a really unique way. There's some guys in the NBA, you know, he's not the only one

It's done that, but they have a unique way of kind of articulating the message and then having dudes who don't really know them buy into it. And, you know, and now it's got to work, but it's worked for him. Yeah. Congrats to both those guys. Enjoyed my time covering Chauncey in New York and over the years. And Vince has been great too. Congrats to them.

Jerry West, Michael Cooper, everyone else. Let's take a quick break. We will come back in just a second and talk about the impact. VP race. All right, we're back. I'm checking my phone. The ballots has still not landed, but any minute now, any minute now, the balloting will land for not just MVP, but all the other awards as well. Rajah, the last straw poll from my buddy, Tim Bontems at ESPN, had Yokic overwhelmingly winning. And, you know, there's been a lot of discussion of Luca who has just been on fire the last couple of months.

Shea all season, although he's been banged up, resting, whatever they're doing in Oklahoma. You know, they're, you know, obviously just trying to get ready for the playoffs. It feels like this is just a three-person race, if at all. It may just be a one-man race at this point. How do you see it? Is it three? Is it just Yokic? Is anybody else legitimately even in this conversation?

Yeah, I mean, legitimately. that's an interesting word. While it is a three, I think it's a three person race in that the other two can make legitimate cases, but their case doesn't. I mean, it's a one person race.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's a word. Uh, I think. Kudos to the Mavericks in general and Luca for like, closing strong and, and really, you know, trying to,

trying to make the case and more importantly, putting themselves in a position to be playing great basketball going into the playoffs. Hope SGA gets healthy, like his body, of work speaks for itself. I'm sure he's going to be in this conversation for years to come. But I think this year it's Yokic clearly. What about you? Yeah, no. I, I, so I'm in that straw pole with Bontamps. And I, he always chastises me because I'll say like, well, let me, hold on, give me some time. I need to think this through.

He's like, Howard, just just, just, just, just, it's a snapshot. It's just a straw pole. It's not the real thing. It's okay. I have, I have a hard time, uh, just getting out of that mindset of like, I need to drill down. I need to open up basketball reference and have like 17 tabs open. I'll get to that before the real ballot goes in. So I did. Yokic was the top of my ballot. And what I do the deeper dive this week, Raja, I'm pretty sure it's still going to be Yokic.

But you want to think through like what would be the case for Shea over him. What would be the case for Luca over him? Or even at once upon a time, maybe Yonis over him. But the way the books are just like spiraling recently. I think that Knoxian is out of those top three slots for sure if he wasn't already. And I don't have a compelling case to make for the other guys yet. I'm going to toy with it over the course of the week. And listeners, if you want to hit me on Twitter at Howard Beck and tell me why it's

Shay or Luca over Yokic, I'll listen to any arguments for sure. But I think it's Yokic. But it brings us to this, Raja. Yokic was in line to potentially win three in a row last season. Of course, Mbid beat him out. And I voted for Embed. And I thought Embed was legitimately slightly the better candidate. Not by a lot, but I think he was legitimately the better candidate last season.

But now it's still like three and four years and three overall. And there's only X number of guys who have ever won three or three and a four years span. So people start doing the historical thing and saying, oh, well, if he's not at the level of like Jordan or these other guys, do players have these debates too? Do you guys talk about this stuff in the same way? Or is this? Okay, so it's you too. Yep. Yeah.

In the locker rooms, I mean, I'm not in. now. But yes, these would be conversations that would be taking place around a locker room late in the season, especially on teams that may not be concerning themselves with what's going on in the playoffs. I mean, yeah, that's definitely conversation. All right. So how about this part of it, too, then? Are you guys discussing things like, so historically, and I'm somebody who's, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. Again, I've spent too much time thinking about the MVP races in general because I've voted most years that I've covered the league. But we had a long. long history and precedent of MVP's coming from no less than a 50-win team in a full 82 game season or the equivalent in a shorter season. And usually top two or three at a conference. I got teams that were plausible contenders, relevant teams, not irrelevant teams, right? And so, like, I wasn't one who thought Westbrook was the right choice the year he won it. I voted for Harden that year.

the second i think it was the first or the second time yokech won it whatever the year that they were like fifth or something six in the west um and i think below 50 wins like i i wasn't as uh convinced because i think MVP is not just about being one of the best players in the league it's not just how many stats you racked up how many advanced stats you won how many plus minus and fancy plus minus stats you can claim. It's also like, did you do it to the best possible effect? Meaning your team went out a high level. And as a result, we go into the postseason thinking, yeah, that team's got a shot to make

a really deep run or maybe even win it all. Is that something? Do players look at it that way or do you guys view it more through the prism of just like, no, that dude was the greatest player in the league this year? I think you'd have mixed. I think you'd get a mixed bag of answers on that. I think some people, I tend to kind of be in the middle. Like I don't have to have it one way or the other.

I can appreciate a performance from a guy over the course of a series who might not have enough around him to put him squarely in the number one or two seed or three seed. Like, you know, if it's jumbled up at the top, like maybe you just don't have enough and you are you're just willing your team to certain things. I also like to reward the guys who are numerically great across the board that are leading those teams to wins and stuff like that. I think you'd find the answer would vary from person to person on that. But if you make me choose one, I'm going to be with you in that. I like my MVP coming from a team that has just produced and has a chance to win.

and is sitting in a position to win something. And I know that in a lot of instances, that means he's got more support. But I don't know. It's just what I like. Yeah. No, it's the simplest way to put it, does his team matter? And so like if your team is sixth in the conference,

I'm sorry, going to the playoffs. Like you're not a team that matters. You're not a team that's relevant. And the history of the award, that's the thing, right? So the award is not defined intentionally. None of these awards are defined. There's no definitions plastered on there. it's just most valuable player and then it's up to the individual, the individual fan,

pundit, voter, whoever, and you interpret it, you know, through 100 people voting, you get some sort of consensus. And I'm totally comfortable with that. But I think in lieu of an official definition, the history of the award is the definition. And that's not to say that voters for all of history have been perfect at this. It's not even to say that we should be beholden to that history. but I think the precedent matters because it helps us define and understand what the award represents. And if the award more often than not, 99% of the time that the MVP goes to a guy who's one of the best in the league, but also on one of the best teams in the league, I think that's a fair framework to view it through. And I know some people like strenuously disagree with me on that and say, no, if the guy had the best season in the league and his team was seventh, but he's clearly the best player, we should give it to him. And I'm just, I'm not there because and then my question would be like, all right, well, how far?

down could that team be before you would scratch that guy off? Could you be the best player in the league on the 12th place team? And this is coming up on the defensive player of the year conversation a little bit because people are making a case for Victor Wenbenyama as defensive player of the year. They're the worst team in the West by quite a bit. And they've got the 22nd ranked defensive rating. Not Wenbanyama's fault, clearly. But I don't know how you can be defensive player of the year and be on a bottom third defensive team. So we always have to meld the individual excellence and the team success, I think.

And I feel like that's the fair way to look at it. Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree with you on that. And Wembe is one of those dudes. Again, I can appreciate that and maybe make first team all defense and everything like that. But the true defensive player of the year,

it's not even a maybe making all defense. But the true defensive player of the year, I would agree with you. I need a little bit more from your team success. And even if it's just that category for this one, you know what I mean? Like you anchor a really good defense.

But yeah, I'm with you. I think I agree with what you're saying. And I could put like, Wembe will probably be on my like all defensive team for the first team, all defensive first team. For sure. Because that's the all NBA and all defensive, all rookie.

Those are more about individual excellence. That's just like what you did. But MVP and defensive player of the year like, team success. that's is sort of baked into those. And I don't see how you can keep those separate. So the one other quick thought I had before we get to listener emails, I had this thought.

Tell me if I'm crazy. Jason Tatum has been one of these guys who has been in and out of this MVP conversation. And he's pretty much just like lost in the conversation now because we have such a great group at the top. And he's going to make some fourth and fifth place votes probably. he may not make some ballots. And I realize at some point, tell me if this is a crazy comparison, I feel like Jason Tatum is going to be in some ways the Chris Weber of this era, not necessarily permanently, but hear me out.

Chris Weber anchored some incredible Sacramento Kings teams. I'm covering the Lakers back then, so I'm seeing Lakers Kings going at each other's throats every year. There were years where the Kings had the better record, I think a 62 win season, the last year that they clashed. And Chris Weber was clearly the best player. on the best team. And that's one version of an MVP definition you could have. But he was never seriously in consideration for top of the ballot because the Kings were an ensemble. They were just this

great team. Pesia, Blade, Bibby, all these guys. And so Weber was the best player, the most talented, put up the most stats on those teams. But it really wasn't about him carrying that team. It was more just about the ensemble and the way they all fit together and how well they played together. And so it wasn't a knock on Chris Weber, but he didn't get as much consideration. And I feel like that's where Tatum is right now. The Celtics are this incredible ensemble. Everybody agrees it's the most talented first five or first six in the league. They're leading the east by 15 miles at this stage, but it's not Tatum carrying them. It's him being the best player of a really great ensemble. And I think fairly or unfairly, he's going to get a little bit shorted on the MVP

discussion because of that. Yeah, I could see your argument. for that. I could see where you're going with it. I think that I think that Jason Tatum, do I want to say that? I'm trying to think back to those Sacramento cases. So I want to say that he might be more responsible for carrying them overall than C-Web was. And I can't say that. In fairness to C-Web, I can't say that. I like where your mind's out with that. Here's what I would say. And the same would have rang true for C-Web. Because statistically, look, if you just go through pure statistics, I mean, Yokic and Donchich and all those guys are, I mean, I mean, I mean, you score more points, more rebounds, more assists, you do all of that, you're on these.

Win, win a championship. Win a championship this year, you come back next year, you do it again. I think things change. And whether that's fair or not, I think things start to change in whether or not, you know, just the perception of him being the MVP and whatnot changes a little bit. Yeah. I think that's probably true. It's the subconscious thing that seeps in, right?

Like, I will always argue that, like, I am not personally. I can only speak for myself, right? There's 100 voters. I personally am not, or I'm trying my best not to consider what a guy did in past post seasons. It doesn't matter. It's about this season. It's MVP for the 2020, 3, 24 season period. Like, I get that some of our perceptions of players is this guy clutch or not.

See, come through in big moments. When you start thinking about those things, it's not that Jason Tatum has fallen short in this regular. season. When we think about him as not having been clutch enough, it's about, oh, what happened in game seven last year or in the finals a couple of years ago. And so it is, you judge the totality of a player in the way that the impression that they've made on you. And yeah, I think subconsciously or not maybe some of the past stuff seeps in and past post seasons, I don't think it should. But also, you know, Chris Weber and Tatum, that's the other parallel, right? they both carried the burden of have they come through in big moments?

Are they consistently great when their team needs them most? And so it's just interesting. It's not a perfect comparison. I'm not saying that the same guy by any stretch. I feel like they just occupied similar spaces within their teams and within the broader kind of conversation. Yeah, I can dig that. All right. Producer Kerm has like 500 email.

to read for us. But I think we're just going to do two or three. Let's go, Kerm. I stop clicking my pen for you, bro, so we're good. Rosh's just doing his best to make Kermm as extra cranky on a Monday morning as possible. Kerm, let me ask you a question on air. Yes. Is it that loud when I do it or is it like a pet peeve of yours?

Oh, it's pretty noticeable. Like, I mean, if you're not talking, I just mute your mic and like they won't know. Yeah. But if you're talking, it's like, I can't get rid of a clicking noise. Like, that's, I'm not God. I can't just make that shit disappear. We were just giving way too much credit to your technical skills. I appreciate it.

We thought you could work magic. Thought you were to whiz, bro. My bad, though. I could only do so much, man. Only so much. First question is from Curtis. It's called Defending Yolkich, which I'm not going to lie. That sounds like it's to be like a documentary name.

Like, you know, like surviving Garkelly, like that type of vibe. I might cut that because, like, why am I saying Garceli? unsolicited That is way worse than a clicking pen. Oh, wow. That's a much bigger offense. Wow.

Time out to me. My bad guys. Is the key to defending Yokic having big bodies to throw on him in early part of the game first quarter to third with having a big he has to cover that gives him work?

Example is Lakers bubble lineup with AD, Javell, and Dwight. Also is his dominance directly related to lack of true offensive-minded bigs that can give him work plus lack of depth in big men on almost every roster he faces he's a very very good player but being an ogy fan who fondly recalls 90s 90s era nicks front line you know davis boys plus smits and indiana etc feeling strongly that the level of physicality that they would have placed on him with severely Dole, his luster as best player in the world, OG status, though self-proclaimed is based on

first NBA attended. Jesus Christ. Long email. First NBA game attended was Willis Reeve Nix. Y'all get it. Y'all get the question. I'm not going to keep me. He gave me an essay.

It's a lot. There's a lot there. I can understand the thought process behind having bigs. One of the things we always said about great offensive players, whether he was a big or not, was what you wanted. do is try to go after them on the other end of the court to the degree that you can. Because I've sat here on this pot and said over and over again, just having to be the offensive weapon and the primary offensive ball handler and creator is an exhausting job.

Then having to come down on the other end and be a primary defender on somebody who can really give you work, that becomes just doubly as tasking. And it's going to take away from your ability to do your job on the other end. So there is something to that. there is also something to the lack of true, like, numbers that want to come into a game and be super physical. That's not the roster construction of most teams now. Where in the, you know, those days of the Rick Smiths and those Indiana teams, you had three or four bodies that were going to come in. They were big.

They were six, ten, to seven, three, and they just wanted to beat the shit out of you. So, like, rosters aren't constructed like that. I can't tell you whether Yokic would be less successful against those dudes or not, because what those dudes couldn't do was go out there and play his ass at a three-point line. Like, and he does that as well as most guards in the NBA. So I can't sit here and draw a direct line to him being less successful because of that. It would be physically more punitive at times if he were trying to get work around the room. What I can say is, to his original question,

The answer to trying to minimize his effectiveness, I don't think you ever stop guys like that, is to have real bodies that you can continuously throw at him. Number one, like just the physical toll that it would take on him to have to be physically beating and pushing on someone all game. Number two, to mitigate against the foul trouble that you would naturally run into because he's so gifted offensively, having someone else of real size and length because he's not tremendously athletic. So whenever you can make it really difficult for him to be over the top, I would suggest doing so. And then thirdly, yeah, if you had a big that could go at him on the offensive end consistently

and effectively, and it didn't cost your team because it took the ball out of like a primary score somewhere else, if you could achieve all three of those, that would be the best recipe to like get after him. I ain't seen it done too often. And I'll just add this one quick thing. Raja because, you know, I covered the league. Obviously, my, my entry in 97 is when Shaq's, you know, in his prime and I'm covering the Lakers. And you've got, you know, Patrick Ewing and Akeem are still around and Rick Smiths and everybody else and DeKembe. And yeah, like there was, there was a golden

era there of sorts, you know, among the golden errors for centers for bigs. But like, it doesn't always work that way. By the time Dwight Howard comes along, we're talking about. how the center position is dead, but Dwight dominates the position and dominates the league and takes an otherwise lackluster Orlando Magic team to the finals, and Dwight wins, like, however many five defensive player of the year awards or whatever,

I don't think we're diminishing Dwight by saying, well, he didn't have to go up against Shaq and Patrick and Akeem and Alonzo. Like, you play in the area you're in. You dealt the hand, you're dealt. And sure, I'd love to do the time machine thing too. I would love to see Yokich and Shaq

go at each other and see what would happen. see Shaq having to go guard him out of the perimeter. But sorry, we live in the real world. Yokic is amazing. And the one thing I've learned in my time covering the league is that great players are great, period. And whatever you throw at them and whatever era they're in, they figure out a way. They figure out a way to be dominant. I don't think there's any questioning Yokic's abilities at this stage.

Next question is from Jason. He says, Sup guys, long time listener, first time reaching out. I love going to a live game at the arena, the sites, the sounds, the food, a few things I need to know about the game. One, when it comes to NBA benches, what bench seat is considered top tier? And what do the seats mean about a player's position and importance on the team? Let's start there. It sounds like we should file that one away for a fun feature. Yeah.

Go ahead, Howard. You want to take that one? No, you sat on benches. Apparently a lot of the sets. And apparently a lot of the second round of the 2001 playoffs. Yeah. Well, this will tie right in because I didn't really have a bench seat in that playoff series. I was on the ground.

So it does say something about the hierarchy of the team, right? Like I was new had just been there on two 10 days. We had a lot of bodies on that bench. There was not a seat for me on it. So on most teams, you'll have your youngest guy or you're at least tenured or the most likely to be cut if someone had to be cut sitting on the floor or furthest away from what's going on, unless a star player chooses to sit there. For example, Steve Nash would always sit on the floor when he came out of games because he had a bad back.

So he could lay down and have a hot pack on his back and stay ready. So that would free up a seat on the bench. So one of our young players gets to jump up into the, you know, onto the bench for a while on that team. So ordinarily, the guys that are coming out, Most coaches, you know, want their rotational guys. And you start to get a feel over the course of a season. If you're not a rotational guy, don't sit your ass right next to the coach. Like, unless you're like an Avery Johnson when I was with Dallas.

Like Avery Johnson wasn't always rotational, but he was basically like they would let him run practices when Don Nelson and Del Harris and those dudes like for whatever reason, maybe a couple 12 packs on the flight, didn't want to come to shoot around the next morning. Avery Johnson would run it. So if you're in that capacity as a player slash coach, you can sit close to the coaches. But other than that, you can get your rotational guys kind of close to the coaches and then it works its way down.

Young guys most likely to be cut on the ground. All right, but hold on. I got one little wrinkle I want to ask about the Raja. Are the dudes you're avoiding it? Because like everybody's not always like, it's not always like everybody just like kumbaya in the locker room.

Everybody loves each other. Like are you ever like actively avoiding guys on the benches? Is the order on the bench sometimes just guys who either want to be near each other or want to be far apart. Oh, well, yeah, I think less than the, not, I've never seen like guys want to be far apart unless it's like a,

unless it's like a personal hygiene thing, right? Which, which could happen, right? Like, names of stinky players, Ross. I've seen that. No, but, but more like, more often, you'll get guys that like to sit together. Like, we've, you know, like, I wasn't playing a lot.

on Philly the second year. And I liked sitting next to like Jermaine Jones and Speedy Clacks. And even though Speedy was going to play more than me, like those were my guys. So I'd be near Speedy and those guys. That happens a lot. But yeah, yeah, I'm not going to get into the other one.

So an interesting question. I like that. Kurt, we got to have time for one more. Oh, let me, can I say one more thing about that? This was the only time I've experienced this. It was Jerry Sloan. And he had his little kind of, he had his little quirks. Jerry had seats that he wanted you in.

So when the timeout was called, you know, the coaches get up and they do a little muddle huddle over there, they're going to talk for a while. By the time Jerry, so all the players are going to form that little semicircling guys are going to sit down in the five seats. Manager brings Jerry's seat out or the head trainer brings Jerry seat out and puts it in the middle. By the time Jerry leaves that huddle with his coaches and sits in the middle of our huddle, we have to sit in a three, four, one. one, five, two, like positionally, right? Going from left to right. Now, I don't remember if that's the exact order that he wanted them in, but that's the way he wanted you to sit.

That's fascinating. Is he the only coach who ever did that? Only one I've ever seen that did it. Everybody else, it was just like wherever you land, whatever seizure in. Just sit down, yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah, it was pretty, it took some getting used to like the first few timeouts. Yeah.

All right. Kerm, one more? Yeah, last question's from Josh. Rajah, get ready. is one of those, you know, coach dad advice questions. Let me warm these pipes up, baby. It says, incoming college basketball players, hi, guys, this question is mostly for Raja, as I said.

My kid is a senior in high school who will be playing basketball in college next year, non-D-1. Congrats. But on an athletic scholarship, congrats, man. What advice would you give the kid, especially someone who played at two different programs, and what advice would you give me as a parent? Thanks in advance.

Well, first of all, Congrats. Any level, um, matriculating from high school to play at the next level is a blessing. So like, I think far too often today's kids and parents get that twisted. Like any level is a real blessing and you've got to be a hell of a player to do that. So congratulations. Um, I would say for your son, um, I mean, macro like, man, enjoy it. It goes, it goes really fast. Take the time to get to know the people that you're with. a way that would transcend your time at that school, like my best friends in this world today

are from both BU and FIU because, you know, I was engaging in a way that allowed me to make relationships that lasted for a long time. Same with the coaches that you have there. In terms of playing, have some patience. You go in and you think you know everything because you were really good at the high school you were at or maybe the AAU scene that you were on. But the reality is there's a difference whenever you step up in level and it'll smack you in the face really quick if you're not humble and aware of it. So be patient, get there, um, figure out the lay of the land, uh, be where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be there and then work your way up to I'm ready to play now. But go in there kind of humble. Like the last thing older dudes want

is a young buck in there. Like you could get you could get a bull's eye on your back really quickly by running in there thinking you're the shit, if you will. So, you know, go in kind of humble, work your tail off and let your game do the talking. I think is the best advice I could give any young freshman. Go on there, let your game do to talking. The older dudes will know if you're that guy. Coaches will too. You ain't going to have to say shit.

As a parent, as a parent, I would say, listen, more than talking at him. And I know this because I do this. My dad did it a little bit too, and we had to work it out. I'm working through it now with more than talking at him. them, listen to them. You know, they're going to, when your son calls you about what's going on with the team and what's happening with him and the coaches or he had a disagreement with this, this person or that person, just let him get through that, let him talk that out in a way that that

alleviates whatever he's got going on in his world. It can be really, really tough for a kid first time away, dealing with the pressures of having to be at class and having to be, you know, at practice. and not having the same time that you thought for your social life, having to study, missing your mom and your dad and the safety of the house. Like, it could be really tough. So just be there to listen and support. And don't trip out about whether or not he's making all freshman team or not.

Like that, it's just the start. I don't know. That's a lot. That's a big question, a bigger question than I thought. And there's a, that's a, that's a, that's a really interesting time. And I was like, I was really, really sad when, when, when, you know, well, when they left me in Boston and I saw the Red Cherokee drive away with the U-Haul on the back, I was free as a bird, baby, like, let's do it.

And then about a month later, I was sick as shit, man, I missed home so bad. And, you know, things just got a little sideways. So, you know, be there for support. Wow. See, now I'm, now I'm trying not to get emotional here because I'm sending my daughter off to college in the summer. I'm already, like, trying to try to think about, like, we're the ones driving away and she's in the rear view.

Like, I can't even, I can't even, I can't even think about it right now. I hear you, Howard. I'm going to need your worldly dad advice at that point, even though I'm older than you. Kerm, you want to remind people the email address and please say it 17 times in a row like Logan. Yes. Hit us up at real onesmailbag at gmail.com. Real onesmail bag at gmail.com. Real onesmail back at g-wobel.com.

Hit us up, man. Real Ones meltbag at gmail.com, baby. I love it. It's got that great, like, used car sales ad at 2 in the morning energy. It's phenomenal. I love it. I love it. All right.

That is it for today. Raja and I will be back here on Thursday on Real Ones. Logan, I believe, will be back next week once he has completed his load management program. He's got to, like, ramp up. He's got to go one-on-one, two-on-two, three-on-three-on-three. three, four, and four, all that before he's cleared by the medical staff. Past protocols. Past protocols.

Pass protocols. Thanks, Roger. It's been a blast. Thank you for not shooting spitwads or writing mean things about me on the chalkboard. You were a bad man, Howard Beck. Well done today, buddy. Appreciate it. Thank you, producer, Kerm.

Thank you all for listening.