The Ringer NBA Show - A Clippers and Mavs Blowout, and Pacers Fire Nate McMillan with Tom Haberstroh | Group Chat

Episode Date: August 26, 2020

Justin, Jon, and Rob are joined by NBC Sports' Tom Haberstroh to talk about Tuesday's blowout between the Clippers and the Mavs, including the drama surrounding Luka Doncic and Marcus Morris (15:15). They also discuss the Nuggets' latest victory over the Jazz and the Pacers' decision to fire Nate McMillan just after announcing his extension (26:18). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Jonathan Tjarks Guest: Tom Haberstroh Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly NBA group discussion show. I am Justin Varyer, and joining me today, it is Jonathan Charks. What's up, man? And it's nice to see all you guys. Also joining us, Rob Mahoney. Hello. And from Pinehurst, the great city town of Pinehurst, he is literally,

trapped in the closet right now. It is Tom Habistro, NBC Sports Insider, Analyst, senior expert. What do we say, Tom? I don't even know. I think it's whatever you want it to be. I'm just happy that you invited me on this pod today, so I get some respite from the seven grandkids that are running around my parents' house right now. What are we, if not, just a respite from grandchildren? That is really just the model of the show. And just to clarify there, Tom is literally broadcasting from a closet right now. But it's a very nice closet, I have to say. Thank you. Thank you. I put some clothes in front of me right here so that it catches a little bit more of the audio.

Like I've created a little studio here. You're basically Kanye. This is how he records, too. Yes. All right. We're going to talk about Tuesday nights games, Clippers, Mavs, and Nuggets and Jazz. And we're going to get into some off-season talk for teams that have been eliminated. perhaps some teams that are about to be eliminated.

But first, it's 8 p.m. Pacific time on Tuesday. Right now, the biggest story in the NBA is players and coaches' reactions to the Jacob Blake shooting. It's really kind of unavoidable at this point. The Raptors players and Celtics players have talked about potentially boycotting today's game. So by the time you hear this, there probably was a decision on that. lot of players talked about it yesterday, just in media availability. Fred Van Bleet, Jalen Brown, and some others I saw. But Doc Rivers was especially poignant last night after the game. He actually waited until after the game to talk about this. And he, like, took his mask off and

delivered a really heartfelt, tearful message just about what's going on in the country. I believe we have the audio of that. So if Steve, our producer, could play that right now. It's just so sad. You know, what stands out to me is just watching the Republican Convention and they're spewing this fear, right? Like all you hear Donald Trump and all of them talking about fear, we're the ones getting killed. We're the ones getting shot. We're the ones that we're denied to live in certain communities. We've been home. We've been shot.

And all you do is keep hearing a fear. It's amazing. Why we keep loving this country and this country does not love is back. So obviously a lot of poignant things said there by Doc. I don't really have much to say in situations like this. Clearly what happened to Jacob Blake was inexcusable.

I would just say now is the time to listen specifically to people like Doc. And if you could stomach it maybe watching the video of what happened to Jacob Blake, just because it's really what's happening in this country is unavoidable and inexcusable. And I don't think we could turn our heads away from that. And I think that's kind of basically what the gist of what a lot of guys were saying. They wanted to draw attention to this. and they weren't sure if being in the bubble and playing basketball was the appropriate response.

So definitely something we're monitoring today. But if anyone wants to say anything about that, you know, go ahead. Yeah, I thought Doc's comments were great, but this is going to be a really interesting moment for NBA advocacy in general, just because the players, you know, they've done their part speaking to racial injustice

while they've been in the bubble. They've tried to fight for people like Brianna Taylor. There's just too much here to fix in a press conference. There's too much of that kind of calcified systemic bullshit going on that leads to an unarmed black man being shot seven times in the back by police. And this is really the moment, I think, for the billionaire team governors, for the NBA itself to take a more active role in this part of the conversation, in this part of the action. There's a time to start new diversity initiatives. There's a time to donate to this group or that group. That's all well and good.

but there's a lot of power based in the NBA beyond the players. And I think they're showing some frustration in terms of hitting kind of the limit of what their platforms can offer individually. And in terms of being in the bubble, that was supposed to be the whole point of this was being able to put those players and their voices in the spotlight. But now it's time for, I think, for the NBA itself and for the team governors to do more. This is the time for them to kind of put their stake in the ground. Yeah, Rob, when we talk about Doc Rivers, you remember, of course, the Donald Sterling

fiasco a few years ago where he was kind of the face of that transition away from Donald Sterling and still is very much a face of the clippers. And so he's been in the public eye for for a long time dealing with discrimination and racial injustice. Doc Rivers in 1997 was a victim of an arsonist burnt down his house in San Antonio. This was a year after he retired with the San Antonio Spurs. and R.C. Buford, who's GM, I guess the president now of the San Antonio Spurs, was a scout for the Spurs at the time and raced over to Doc Rivers' house when Doc Rivers was on the road and tried to grab things out of his house and the cops came, the house was gone, the family pet passed away in the fire. The cops never said it was racially motivated, but I think

Doc Rivers and his family believe it was. He is a black man living in an exclusive predominantly white community in San Antonio at the time. And so this is a man who's been dealing with this sort of thing for decades. So when people at home are watching this might not be NBA fans, they have to understand where this emotion is coming from. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a heart check for all of us. I get where the players are coming from about the boycotts. Like what we're doing, it just seems so pointless in comparison.

Especially like someone like Maya Moore, like what she's doing, that's real. And it's not just them, it's us too. our jobs are to watch basketball and talk about it. And if we're being honest, is that really the most meaningful way to impact change in the world? It's not. So we all have to make our peace with it one way or the other because the world is a crazy place. And what we do for a living is really not making a big impact on it, unfortunately. Yeah, Maya Moore, the WMBA legend pretty much, I think she took off a season in order to help a man with his fight to get out of prison who was wrongly accused.

just really just incredible stuff from her clearly a Yukon grad as well so you could always kind of have to do the right thing so yeah it's interesting because I think the other thing that's coming through here and obviously this is the most important thing and like I said at the top this is completely inexcusable and if the guys want to boycott

definitely have my support and definitely the NBA has a history of protesting and just striking in order to draw attention to things. Bill Russell, I think, is a prime example of that. So it would be interesting to see, you know, them carry on that legacy.

I don't think this is, so. Honestly, I hope that the players do boycott. I think this is a big moment for the NBA. But, you know, I think all of our real hope would be that they wouldn't have to, that they would never be put in this position in the first place. I think that's a lot of what Doc spoke to was that people like him aren't allowed to just be a coach.

I think the other thing that you're seeing just kind of on the fringes here is it seems like now that a lot of these teams have been there for upwards of weeks, I think it's like 50 days or something, the Nuggets have been there. You're starting to see like the disconnect from the real world. I think that's probably what's driving like just like guys want to, they've been saying they want to get out there, right?

They feel like they're in this bubble. They can't really make substantial change because they're not in their communities, et cetera. And the other example of that we saw last night was Paul George, who finally had a good game for the Clippers, at his breakthrough game. Clippers scored 154 against the Mavs and a win. I think it was like the third most points ever scored in a playoff game.

And George, who was roundly mocked by a lot of people, including like by me, quite frankly, just in his post game walkoff interviewed, hasn't even left the court yet, just pretty much acknowledges that he'd been dealing with anxiety and depression. And it was just like a really emotional and matter of fact,

just this is what I've been dealing with. So credit to Paul George for just being honest there. You know, it reminded me of what I kind of say sometimes about people as they get older, like in their 20s. Like a lot of the things that used to be like jokes and just like foibles turn clinical at a certain point and become a little bit more serious. And I feel like there's a little bit of that happening specifically with the George thing and just the conversation about mental health and the NBA just going on in the league

right now where it's like we're used to just bagging on jr smith and uh some of these other just like guys that are typically just in in the mean circles i guess but then you realize that there are like serious issues behind here uh and it's almost like a reckoning in and of itself where uh you know it's just like these are people and and they deserve like you know respect and that there are real issues going on behind some of the struggles i guess is what i'd say i mean it's not an accident that the NBA itself, and I would guess a lot of professional sports are this way, players, coaches, executives are obsessed with self-help books, with books that kind of give you guidance on how to live your life,

on how to find balance, on how to find happiness. Like, they're in locker rooms all across the league. And a lot of the, and that's transitioned into teams hiring their own mental health professionals, with players feeling, you know, feeling free like Paul did to just speak out a little bit more about finding the kind of help that he needs to deal with those moments. that's, you know, I think you could look at what the NBA has done in terms of mental health over the last even five years and be a little cynical about it in terms of, you know, in the way that all big corporations pay lip service to certain kinds of initiatives like that.

But the big difference in Damar de Rosen and Kevin Love in all these guys coming out and talking about this stuff is that you get more moments like this, where this is just a normalized thing. This is a part of life. This is something that Paul George can be a human being, even though he's standing in front of a Zoom screen being broadcast to media all across the country in this very weird environment. He's allowed to be a human being for a minute and not just a meme machine. Yeah, I was talking to an NBA player before the bubble about what he's most worried about in the environment, the bubble environment. And what he said was the mental health aspect or the anxiety, not initially. It's a month into it. A month into just living in seclusion and living in your hotel room

and not having family and friends around you. After a bad game, what happens? That's what the player told me, was, after a bad game, are you going to be able to just get away, go to your family, go out to dinner, just get away, and not have to think and roast on social media.

And that's what Paul George was talking about, is his players were imploring him to get off social media. I think I saw that he had turned off commentary or any sort of comments on his Instagram. And I think that's the sign of, of someone who is searching for socialization, someone to talk to, going to the phone and feeling like that's an outlet,

when in fact it's just, it's, as JJ Reddick once put it to me, a den of snakes on Instagram. And so I think it's a collective understanding that, man, real human, human interaction is super helpful in these times. And for these NBA players, they're human. And I think social media, the NBA is on social media more than any other sport. And I think that could come back to backfire for some of these superstars who are used to having a support system around them.

And in this bubble, you see Paul George and others really struggling. Not a weekend. It's a month in when it starts to really set in. Okay, I think what Tom said is a great point. And I'll be like serious here. Social media is terrible. I tell all my co-workers get off social media. I haven't checked my mentions in three years,

and my mental health is so much better. I'm not even joking. It's the worst thing in the world. Social media is driving all of us crazy, players, bloggers, average people. Get off it. Think about this. Okay, Twitter allows any person in the world

to speak to you anonymously. Think about that. So anyone of the 7 billion human beings in the world can just talk to you on your phone anytime they feel like it. Is that going to be a healthy thing for you to deal with that on a daily basis if you're Paul George? If you're getting a bus, no. I like hearing from NBA fan 267-4-3-9-6-8-9-6-44-6.

He's my favorite. You don't like to hear that guy? He's got a lot of good takes on everything. I got an email address. They want to talk to me. Twitter, I'm out. When I first met Charks, he had a flip phone and he was in L.A., I believe you're going to the beach for the first time.

This was like a couple of years ago. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, I'm from Dallas. I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not a beach just here. So, I would, I always say that Charks is the only one living right. And I agree with everything you just said. But it's funny. So the game right before George has this breakout game, he has this quote,

which he told to reporters, to be honest, in hindsight, if I shoot the ball better, this series would be a lot different. Is it, is it that simple? this series, Rob, because it seemed like everything was significantly different. Obviously, Christopps Prazingas didn't play and we can get into that a little bit, but when both Kauai and George are going, which the Clippers didn't have a lot of this season just because of injuries and

absences and whatnot, it does feel like they are as dominant as we always wanted them to be. Well, it's not even just those two guys too. You know, this game in particular, you know, Kauai, all series has just been kind of methodically getting whatever he wants. And that's with, you know, Dorian, Finney Smith, Maxi Cleba. They've done the best that they can in those matchups. I think they've played pretty good defense. It just doesn't really matter.

Kauai is that strong. He can create that much space. He can get his shots. It's going to put up a lot of points. Then you have Paul George going off. Then you have Montres Harrell getting back to his game. Then you have so many guys on the roster getting that eight or nine points. And all of a sudden, you know, it's just overwhelming.

You know, the Clippers are not the kind of team that's going to have this fluid, pass-heavy offense. It's always going to be a little bit of your turn, my turn. It's going to be a little bit of driving kick. but not super dynamic, but there's just so many different weapons that they flood you. And then when you look at the fact that Luke is playing on one leg,

they don't have Chris Epps for Zingis, they don't have Dwight Powell. I don't even know where they're going to go from here. And so we might just point to the clippers saying, hey, they're just better. They hit their shots. But Paul George, he had 27 in game one too. So, like, you know, he can do this.

It's the question of whether Dallas has enough weapons to combat a good night from both Kauai and Paul George. They don't right now. And that's what sucks about injuries. That's what sucks about going to the bubble and playing in this foreign environment is, you know, they might not have access to the greatest care that they would otherwise. And they've been just ramped up super quickly. And you get guys who are just breaking down.

Chris Staps has always dealt with knee issues over the years, even before he tore his ACL. And so when he's out and Lucas, clearly not 100%. They're going to be roadkill. No matter how many good nights you get from Seth Curry and Trey Berg, it's just how much longer can they go?

I do think it points to with the way the Mavs are built. The Mavs have to always be in all cylinders on offense because they really can't guard anyone. And that's the problem, right? Kauai, Paul George, like these are six, eight guys shooting over six, two guys. Like, Paul was a Seth Curry on him.

He should be dominating. The Mavs have no. answer for it. And we saw that last night. Well, and that's where they miss someone like Chris Staps, too, who is not a shutdown defender. But I think the Clippers are shooting something like 73% at the rim in this series when Chris Daps isn't in the game. You know, the maps can defend space. If they're a little smaller, maybe they can get into you a little bit more. But you just need somebody around the basket, especially with players, you know, the clippers aren't huge in terms of height, but they're strong.

And they're going to get up and finish through you if they can get to the room. Can we just talk about for a second how the fact that the, the, The clippers just dropped 154 points and no one's just like, their minds aren't blown. Like the clippers just dropped 154 points in regulation. And it's just like, yeah, yeah. Is that the big number? It's a huge number. It's the biggest of numbers.

Yeah, like funny you mentioned that. The big number was rebranded this year to the Haberstat. So we're just trying to get as many terrible puns as possible. I'm all for it. You know my editing style, which is puns all the time. Yes, very punish, veryer. And the thing about the NBA right now is 113.6 offensive rating, defensive rating, whatever you want to call it,

that's by far the most we've seen in the postseason. You can chalk it up to just the first round, just guys aren't playing defense. But 154 points by the Clippers, so many more threes are being taken even compared to the regular season, the weird thing, and I guess this could be just a sample size issue, is like the Clippers just, I think they made 22, three-pointers last night. It's ridiculous. Like, we just don't even bat an eye anymore. You know what the biggest difference I saw with the Clippers last night was? It was Trez.

Like, I think that everything they do clearly, they were more efficient. They execute better than we ever seen before defensively. I thought they were better and it helped that they could just watch Michael Kidd Gilchrist just shoot threes and they could just laugh at him from the bench area. But that laugh, it's really, really mean. But that's the thing. That's their identity. They are kind of the bullies. They're the team that like when you were down, they will talk shit about you.

When you try to walk to the baseline, they will step on your bad ankle. And as much as I do not support Marcus Morris for what he did. And we can get into that just a little bit. They are the bullies on the block. and you saw with Trez finally in the game, they really embraced that. They definitely played with more of an energy. We talked about last week how the Lakers were upset

that they didn't have fans in the arena and it seemed to like throw them off or at least they said they did. I kind of believe it with the Clippers because Doc said after, I believe it was game four, that loss that they didn't play with energy. And you saw when Trez was being Trez,

when he was yelling things and just like spittle flying everywhere, they really like played like that. They rallied behind him. Yeah, he's really struggled against Bobon in this series. That's been a low-key weapon for the Mavs. Because it's very rare that Montres Harrell loses the backup center matchup in a game. And the fact that he lost it for like three games was a huge part of the Mavs success. And him, yeah, him having a big game is what they expect that they got last night.

We can flip to the other series now just because I think in a lot of way, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're just going to skip over the Marcus Morris, Luca Dantzic. Yeah, I don't know. It feels pretty clear what he did. I'm always a little skeptical when people put on Twitter like the video or just the screenshot of what happened because I think a lot of times we just like overblow what is pretty much just like one little snippet

of what's happening free of context. But if you watch it from a certain angle, I was like, oh, there's really no denying it because I thought he just like, it was just after a free throw and they just happened to be in the same vicinity. But he actually walked from wherever he was to where Luca was, specifically stepped on his anger, ankle. And I just don't think that Marcus Morris has any benefit out anymore. And so it was just

really bad. He was a little too quick to grabbing the shoe. Little too quick. And people were like, how he helped him off the floor and grabbed his shoe? And I'm like, when you're playing in a game, how often does the guy who stepped on the shoe and it falls off actually like go and grab it real quick, in the heat of action? Like it almost never happens in the league where the guy who pulls the shoe off. It's like, oh, I'm going to go grab this and give it back to the player. I, knowing Marcus Morris, he's always had antics in the NBA that like, I think it was earlier this season against Justin Anderson. He like elbowed him in the face. And then when Justin like, yeah, yeah, he just booped him, right? He just boop and then and then he got ejected. And the fact that

it was his ankle, um, that Lucas had an amazing series. And it's just, the whole bully nature of the clippers, it's hard for me to believe. And Rick Carlisle was smart not to comment on this after the game after he was ejected. It's hard for me to believe that that was not intentioned. I think that's the way to put it. We can't all pretend that we're not going through those clips

and looking at body language and looking for every movement. I don't think there's a definitive proclamation you can make in terms of we know for certain that Marcus Morris acted intentionally. But there's all those little things. There's the shoe. There's, you know, it almost looks like he stretches out his step a little more to make sure he makes contact. Like, we can pick apart this stuff. We're never going to get a satisfactory answer. Again, to Tom's point about being quick on it, Marcus Morris also very quick to jump on social media and say, I would never do anything like that. How dare you accuse me and my integrity? It's all a little suspect, to say at least. He's very quick to just clarify everything on Twitter after he just does some really dumb shit. Like clearly, earlier, in the season, he had that really stupid comment about saying that someone had female tendencies

and then all of a sudden he realized, it's almost like, I don't know if he just gets wrapped up in the heat of the battle, but at this point, he just has a long resume of this. There was a clip going around also of him getting tangled with Ben Simmons and all of a sudden just like, neighing him in the head as they

were going down is just, it's not great. Charks, are you a Marcus Morris supporter? I saw something last night that like he was at a certain point someone maybe like that was like the Mavs could sign him in the offseason, but it pretty much rolls that out at this point. I mean, if we're being honest, I think the Mavs needs someone like Marcus Morris. Like you kind of got to have a guy who's going to play on the edge. You need an

enforcer. It's like in hockey, right? You had the one guy hitting your player. You have to have guys when they hit him back. So there's like a story in Dallas about, I'm going to way back in time. 2003, the Nash-Dirk Mavs. They're up 3-0 against Portland in the first round. They lose the next three games. Before game seven, Nick Van Exel gives a speech in the locker room where he says, hey, look, the NBA thinks you're soft. Portland thinks you're soft. Maybe you are, but I'm not soft. Let's go. I think Dallas needs a guy like that, honestly. So what you're saying is that we're going to get the Kobe-Ron-Artesse situation where Marcus Morris goes and visits Luca in the shower after they lose this series.

still one of my favorite stories of recent history where it's just like, you couldn't just like sit down at lunch. You just had to, like, you really needed to tell him so badly that you wanted to play with him that you had to go in the shower. I don't know, just, this is very strange. I'm just excited for Marcus Morris and his brother, Markiev, to be on every NBA team by the end of their careers.

We're almost there. Yeah. Well, they're both in the same general location. So at the very least, they've found each other yet again. Also, one of the more bizarre contract situations, didn't they sign so that they had a pool of money and that they split it between them? In Phoenix, yeah. Yeah, which is the son's way of pretty much circumventing, I think, like, paying them what their value was, and then they traded them. Like the next summer, like one year later, boom, you're out of here. It was terrible.

I guess for team chemistry-wise, as we've seen, maybe not the worst thing, but one of the dirtiest moves, I think it raised history. Clearly a lot of subplots happening with this series, but the basketball has been way more exhilarating, I think, of late for the Nuggets and the Jazz. Just another barn burner where everything devolves into Murray versus Donovan Mitchell. Murray took this one pretty much was absent for a couple quarters. I forgot he was even on the court for a while. And then all of a sudden, you can kind of see him working his way back in. and then he just explodes and takes over the game. He couldn't miss at a certain point.

There was a point where, like, he dished it to someone. I forgot who it was underneath the basket. They got blocked by Gobert. It just happened to fall in his hands. And then he just, like, made a free throw line extended shot just, like, before the buzzer went off. It was like everything was going right for him. I don't really know what to make of this series. Tom, did last night's game change?

just your outlook on the series as a whole or just maybe even these two guys and where they are and just like the nebulous of stars in this league? Yeah, it's amazing what Jamal Murray did on that possession where he split the screen at the top and drove into the paint and then did a spin move in the air. When Rudy Gobert went up to block his shot, he did a spin move to just lay it in.

It's just the guy, Jamal Murray is incredible with the ball in his hands. He scored 94 straight points without a turnover. over the last three games, 15 assists along the way. Like we're watching two young studs, Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray just go off. I don't know if the Utah Jazz have another gear

where they can just actually play really good defense and stop them. But right now it's just going to be, as it is around the NBA, just going to be a shootout. And, yeah, I picked the Nuggets to win in seven in this series, but the way that Jamal Murray played last night, if they can keep that up,

and I don't think Jokic has had a great series, I think that's going to go seven. I think this is a pretty substantive change for Murray, and this is a guy who all throughout his career, there's been questions about the consistency. And to your point, Justin, I think there are stretches of games where he does phase out a little bit,

but it looks to me more like picking his spots than it does drifting out of games. You know, in terms of, like, he's not a great defender. maybe not even a good one, but in terms of effort and engagement on that side has been one of the more consistent nuggets all series lock. Like, he's actually trying to get into stuff. And then over the course of games,

you know, the nuggets have always, certainly this season in particular, been a very two-man game heavy offense in fourth quarters. You know, it's him and Yokes just working over and over and over through that pick and roll stuff. Leading up to that, I see more of that kind of, you know, Chris Paul famously does this stuff where, you know, first three quarters are very much,

get everyone involved, fourth quarter is I'm going to take over and really engage and really, you know, start manipulating possessions. We start controlling things. I'm seeing more of that kind of stuff for Murray. And there's the poise he has with the ball, the way he's manipulating defenses, I think we're seeing a more sophisticated player come out of the ashes of, you know, this guy who's been kind of historically inconsistent. So I do think part of what's going on here. And we had to talk last week about drop defense. So you've got two guards who can shoot threes off the dribble, going against two big men

who drop back in the paint, and basically are giving them free shots constantly. So the number jumps out to me. Last year in the playoffs, Donovan Mitchell against a switching defense in Houston was in the 14th percentile of pick and roll ball handler scores. This year against a drop defense in Denver, he's in the 91st percentile. Like I do believe Mitchell's better than he was last year, but I just think the way the NBA's played now, if you don't switch that screen against an elite guard who can shoot threes, you're going to lose. Gobert and Yokic are getting absolutely murdered on this pick and roll.

I'm looking at the numbers on it. Gobert and Yokic are getting murdered in the pick and roll. Yokic is 37 out of 40 on guarding that play. Gobert is 33 out of 40. And this is Rudy Gobert. This is probably the best drop defender in the NBA. And there's just not much he can do when this guy is shooting 40-foot pull-ups. So, Bomani Jones, the ESPN, has this quote, and he always says, Zona's for cowards. And I'm getting to the point now where I'm starting to think drop defenses for cowards. Like, if you play drop against a good guard, I think you're going to lose. To be fair, too, the Nuggets didn't want to play drop in this series.

Like, they tried to have Yokic up further to start it. And Mitchell was just getting to the rim. He was just, you know, rolling around Yokic, they were getting so much penetration, so many lobs to go bare. They almost, I think they adjusted because they felt like they had to wall off the rim a little bit. And yet, to your point, then Mitchell just pulls up. I think the command from Mitchell has been really impressive in this series. And we've seen his passing kind of incrementally improve.

But he's just picking his spots and really getting, you know, all three levels of scoring as the Nuggets are offering it, getting to whatever he needs for them to be really competitive in these games. Yeah, it's interesting. Even though the Nuggets clearly won last night and Murray had this huge game, even during the loss, it still feels like the Jazz or a team who know who they are and they have this identity, and it seems like they were making a lot of shots early on,

so maybe I'm just like, this is recent C-Bies talking, but it seems like they have this formula, even with Bogdanovich out, where they have enough offense, Mitchell's taking the reins, and the defense is going to sustain them. I'm still a little unclear of what the nuggets are, and I feel like a lot of the success they've had is just come with, you know, Murray getting hot. All of a sudden, Yokic just drills a bunch of threes to start with, and it gets Gobert moving a little bit, and then he kind of disappears. And I don't know, I think this goes into the Michael Porter Jr.

conversation really well because they had success with him on the court last night. They went on that big run with Murray, just scoring all those points with him spacing the floor. And clearly he gives them something on offense and clearly gives them something just like a jolt that they just didn't have, especially with all these injuries that they're dealing with. We'll barton out.

Gary Harris still out. But on the other end, he is just abominable on defense. He is just like, like, it's so bad that, like, I can even tell when he is just completely out of position. And there's that one clip where I think Michael Pina sent it out last night where he's just, like, completely botches a possession. And then Michael Malone has his hands in his head.

And it's like, that's what it feels like to watch him on defense. And so I don't know. So, like, on one hand, I feel like they need him. On the other hand, I feel like he's doing perhaps more. damage than he's worth. Tom, like, where are you on just like him and what he's bringing? The NBA, when you talk about a guy who's supposed to have the ball in his hands all the time and the fulcrum of the offense and then just lays down defensively, you have to wonder if he's okay with his role. And you see Jamal Murray ascend to be the predominantly the ball

handler. I think when Yokic, when you look at his game, he hasn't been the, the same. He hasn't been same fulcrum of the offense that he usually is. And maybe that has some sort of play on the defense of then. But like these two guys, when you run a dribble handoff with Yokic and Jamal Murray, it's buckets every time for the same reason that Jarks was talking about is just the drop defense. When you look at Rudy Gobert, you want to see him out on the perimeter. And I think when you have the two-man game between Donovan Mitchell and Rudy

Gober and Yolkich and Jamal Murray, we'll see who's going to win that battle. But when we're in game six here, there's been a blowout for Denver. I would hope that they're going to have an amazing Yokic game coming up here because defensively they just can't stop anybody. To me, this series reminds me actually somewhat of Mavs Clippers. So the Mavs, like the Nuggets. When they're going on offense, you can't stop them no matter what. They're that good on offense.

The problem is they don't guard at all. So the Nuggets, so the Jazz and the Clippers can always come back in these games. Right. So it's like the Jazz and the Clippers are always going to play good offense because they're playing a bad defense. Whereas the Nuggets and the Mavs have to play great offense consistently

because they're not going to stop anyone. Yeah, the Nuggets are a weird team because I always look at Michael Malone is just this defensive grinder. And it seems like every time I listen to him in a press conference, he's always talking about like playing with Forrest and all this other stuff.

And I almost feel like it's a weird mix with the personnel that he has, particularly the stars that he have. Like, Murray and Yokic are probably the weirdest big two in like the best possible ways of these kind of like big twos that are popping out just because Yokic is just this curio and just like unicorns. Like he's a unicorn amongst the unicorns. And it's just a weird fit because it seems like they just, they kind of clash in a lot of ways. And it's just like they never, the defense never feels right. They brought in guys like Milsap and Jeremy Grant and all these other guys to really like legitimize that defense. it didn't really work. And they're kind of in the situation now with Millsap, ready for free agency. Like, I don't know how do you replace him, is Grant that guy. It's kind of like owning a luxury car where you buy the car.

You're like, oh, this is great. Like, I feel good about myself, driving a BMW, whatever. But then, like, you need other luxury parts in order to supplement the luxury car. I feel like Yokic is the luxury car. and he needs similarly unique players in order to bring out the best in that team. And I look around, I'm like, maybe Jeremy grants that answer.

Murray is sometimes, but even he can fade in and out. But yeah, I don't know. I think even if they win this series going forward, Charks, I think that they have a bit of a question mark as to like, what is the right mix of guys around Yokush

just to bring the best out of him? You brought up the Ben Simmons idea yesterday and you wrote about it on the site. Is that like the answer for him? I think the idea of getting a defensive counterpoint for Yokic up front would be really good. But I would say even beyond that fundamentally, if Yokic and Murray are your best two players, I think usually one of your top two players has to be a two-way guy. Like historically over the last 20-ish years,

I don't think there's a team where their top two guys, neither one of them can play defense. I think if they're going to be your pairing and they're going to win a championship, it's going to be so much easier if either Murray or Yokuch could play really good defense. They remind me somewhat of the Nash-Dirk Mavs back in the day, where if you're top two guys, neither one could play D. You're just compromised. It's just really hard to win for playoff series, if that's the case. Right.

Charks, do you want to pivot to Nerd Corner now? You had some coaching adjustment talk. You want to go there? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So one thing I've been thinking about in these first round in the playoffs is just like, I'm curious what y'all's philosophy is on coaching adjustments in terms of when should a coach say, okay, we did all these great things in regular season.

We got to stick with what we do best versus at what point do you say, we got to adjust to our opponents. I know personally, I'm very much of the school of thought, like, you've got to adjust, you've got to be aggressive. Because in my experience, I feel like more series are lost by waiting to adjust too slowly than adjusting too quickly. But I do acknowledge it does happen where, okay, I remember back in the day, the, uh, 2007 Mavs when they won 67 games. They opened that series against the We Believe Warriors and bench their centers. And I think that was probably the right move to make.

But making it in game one kind of signaled, we cannot guard them. We've got to change up. Where do you stand on that whole kind of flaw question? Like for Denver, when you're dealing with a young team, I'm not for that. I think you have to look at the roster composition and how old they are and the basketball IQ that you have with your best players. because I feel like the only way you're going to adjust and be aggressive, like you say, is if you have players that can do that.

A lot of players in this league can't make adjustments. A lot of players can't listen to play calls. A lot of players don't respond to instruction very well, especially in the playoff atmosphere. So I think a lot of those decisions about whether to just stick to your guns and go with what got you there and making those adjustments, it depends whether you have a Kauai, a LeBron Jail. games, Aluka Donchich, guys who have the basketball IQ where they can make sort of in-game

adjustments where the game comes very easy to them. Whereas if you have people who need everything scripted out, you build those habits throughout the entire season and you just throw it out the door, I don't think that's going to go very well. So you really have to, instead of having a hard and fast rule about this, I think you just really have to understand the roster composition and whether your star players and your role players are all working on the same page. Yeah, I don't think you can ever take that piece of it for granted in terms of asking a player to go from the starting lineup to the bench, cutting guys out of the rotation, dramatically change their shot profile.

You know, you can change some stuff. And Michael Malone's a great example of this. You know, he's really had his finger in the dam throughout the entire series in terms of, okay, we're going to put Jeremy Grant at three. We're going to move these defensive matchups. We're going to try to control everything we can to rectify the fact that our team is like a bunch of players who can either score or defend, but not both. and you can do some of that stuff, but at some point, you do risk losing guys.

And, you know, I agree that there are a lot of series that are lost because coaches don't make adjustments quick enough. The thing is that there's stuff that's bigger than the series, right? Like, there's your young guy who you just gave an extension to

that you don't want to lose in year one of that extension. There's all these different factors that, you know, there's a certain safety and if we just play our way, maybe this is like the Mike Boodenholzer, corollary,

but you can just chalk that up as like trusting your guys, Right. This is how we play. This is how we've won. If you start making changes, you start making changes to that, all of a sudden, the phone calls come in from the agents. All of a sudden, this guy is rumbling a little bit. This guy's starting to get a little grumpy. There's a lot that can go down just from the strategy of trying to win a series. All right. We're going to take a break there. When we come back, we're going to talk about some teams that have gone fishing already from the playoffs, including one who just ended up in some breaking news. So we'll be right back.

All right, we're back. Some breaking news. We were going to talk about the Pacers anyway, but they gave us even more reason to. So Nate McMillan was fired today, which is odd because just recently his contract was extended, and I believe he was given a team option

for the season after Next in that. I'm reading the ESPN News right now, and it was described as a soft extension, which I've heard a lot of NBA jargon. That's the first time I've heard that one. Rob, you spent a lot of time around this team. You reported out a big feature for

them earlier in the year. Are you surprised by this move at all? I am a bit. There's certainly been that conversation around the league where Nate is concerned, some of which I didn't think was entirely fair. And that gets into kind of the circumstances of his dismissal here, which

I think is kind of a raw deal. The Pacers are a team where you can very easily identify the things they should have been doing but didn't. It's hard to shoot more threes than they did because they were right there near the bottom of the league. That said, even though the Pacers have been a first round exit for a couple of years running now, I don't know that they should have won any of those series. In every single one, pretty much, especially over these last couple years, they're without guys, they're without both Sabonis

and Jeremy Lamb this year, two really critical parts of their second unit. Victoro Lidipo is clearly not himself. You're missing pieces all over the place every season. The team overperforms a little bit in the regular season and in the playoffs, you know, you have to, there's a reckoning in terms of that kind of performance and what can be exposed

in a postseason setting. And so it is tricky in that regard. Do I think another coach could elevate what they have offensively? I think there's some potential for that. But in terms of what Nate's been able to do defensively, culturally, I think that stuff is really valuable.

And especially if you're talking about giving a coach a chance to show what this team can do with a fully healthy roster, I'm not sure Indiana really had the opportunity to do that. To me, this is nothing.

thing about his performance as a coach and has everything to do with the new candidates that are popping up in the last week. You know, you have Brett Brown who was fired last week. You have Mike Dan Tony who's been out, you know, in the rumor mill to be let go at the end of the year. You have Alvin Gentry who is fired, Jim Boylan who is fired. I think this is more to do about the market for coaches and whether the Pacers feel like there's someone out there that they need to get that maybe previously was not going to be available, but they read the tea leaves or they reached out to their agents, their representation,

and they feel like Nate McMillan is not their coach of the future. And we'll see. I mean, the details of the contract, the extension that they gave Nate McMillan two weeks ago. But to me, it was something that, like, Jim Boylan got from the Chicago Bulls, which was just like,

yeah, we kind of like you, but we also don't. We want to date you. We don't necessarily want to marry you. And so that's what this deal to me was about, was Nate McMillan was just like, you know, they decided that someone else out there on the job market was someone they wanted to target. We should mention that in addition to the firing, it immediately comes out that Mike Dantonie is a target for the Pacers. Charks, you actually wrote about that a couple of weeks ago. So credit to you for that.

Is he, like Thomas saying, is he the guy who could. potentially take this team from what it was, which is a first round out to something even bigger? I think if you were to hire Dan Tony, you would have to restructure your team a little bit. And I think when you look at Nate, to me, you have to go back to Ola Depot. He's free next summer.

And Indiana lost Paul George already. They don't want to do that again. And I mean, I don't think it takes too much reading into it to say, if Victor wanted Nate to coach him, he would still be in Indiana. And I think if you're Ola Depot, you can say, look, I want to be seen as one of the best guards in the NBA.

I'm in an offensive system. I may not necessarily showcase my full abilities, right? I'm sure if I was a little depot, I would look at what happens in Houston and say, I could do that. He probably couldn't, obviously, but he has the confidence to believe that he could. And to me, it makes a lot of sense in all parties. I think if you were to go out for Dan Tony, the idea would be to trade one of your bigs, probably Miles Turner for a wing, play a little smaller, play a little faster. and realistically are you going to win a championship?

Probably not, but you will probably play a slightly more entertaining former basketball, even if it's not as consistent on both ends of the floor. Well, to Charks' point, too, this is a team that characteristically will not pay the luxury tax, and they just ate a season of salary for their coach. And that wasn't for no reason at all. You know, I think that comes in service of the idea that if the front office were really confident in Nate and really confident in those kinds of relationships, then he would still be there. And the fact that he isn't is certainly telling in that regard, given the financial reality of this particular franchise in the most unstable economic times the NBA has seen pretty much ever.

I mean, but do you want to make Victor Oladipo your franchise player? That's a fair question. Do you want to make Victor Oladipo who has not looked himself and has had one of the most devastating knee injuries you can have a torn tendon, quad tendon? he's a guy who has lived above the rim for a lot of his career and just finished four games without any dunks. He's a guy who's not getting to the rim. He's clearly limited out there a year and change from his injury. Are you going to be listening to that guy to make coaching decisions?

I mean, if I'm the Pacers, I'm making coaching decisions based on who I view the long-term roster of this team. And I get a little nervous when they're making any sort of personnel decisions, whether as merit or not, based on Victor Oladipo, when I'm not even sure he's a franchise player when he becomes a free agent next summer. Right now, I don't feel confident in that. And maybe he gets better, but we just had four months off, and he wasn't any better. So I just getting really nervous about putting all my chips and betting on Victor Oladipo as the long-term

centerpiece of this franchise. But they do have T.J. Warren, so the franchise is in good hands. Now, this is uncharacteristically bold of the Pacers, as Rob mentioned. So on the one hand, I am encouraged by it that they are seemingly taking advantage of this window, this team that they basically home-brewed themselves,

and they found Sub-Bonis and Oladipo, when they were distressed assets. They made some good draft picks over the years. Obviously, the T.J. Warren signing or trade was as well documented at this point, especially at the ringer.com. On the other hand, this strikes me as the same quandary that the Pelicans

were in when they let go of Monty Williams, a coach that just brought that team to the playoffs, and they went for Alvin Gentry. And you saw that while in spirit going for it, like is exciting. You could see that like it can quickly fall apart if all of the right players aren't in place. And as you mentioned, Tom,

just the Pelicans were team that got injured a lot the following season. If you're building your team around Ola Depot, I'm not sure if you can really count on him to be there. I don't know. But I will say this though. If it is Dan Tony who they're going after,

he has made a career out of making fringe guys good. And so I do wonder if, even if they didn't have Ola Depot, if it was still just the guts of that team that they've been playing with. Earlier in the season, he could still elevate them more to what they had already been.

I don't know. Okay, I got a question for you all. I'm kind of curious about. What do you think is like Miles Turner's trade value in the NBA these days? You would think that a lot of teams would want him specifically just because every,

it seems like there are so many really talented, offensive bigs who want to play for Anthony Davis, who knows what Zion Williamson will be? You would think that he, his like 3 and D 5 game would be the perfect compliment to a lot of those guys. I think he has quite a bit, especially as a floor stretching pig, I think teams are going to be wanting that versus just the model of the Rudy Goberes of the world.

So where the Clint Capella is. So I think I think Miles Turner is going to have some trade value. I don't think he's going to be on the team next year. I think given the transition that you're having as a head coach and the fact that You know, you have Subonis and him long term. I think they're going to make moves this summer. And I think it's smart to evaluate whether Sabonis and Turner are the centerpiece, you know, front court of that team.

Now, what can they get? I don't know. We'll see what the offseason is going to look like with draft picks, with the money crunch around the league, what kind of value you're going to get for him. But, you know, you mentioned Monty Williams and Alvin Gentry. I do want to take a moment here and mention that Alvin Gentry and Nate McMillan are two of the few black coaches we have in the NBA and they were just both let go in the past week. Both were in very difficult circumstances this year with injuries. And you look at the injuries that happened to the Pacers, we're sitting here and this guy got an extension two weeks ago.

and yes, he's been swept twice in the last two post seasons. But man, it seems like the margin for error is a lot thinner for African-American head coaches than they are for white head coaches. And it just, I hope Nate McMillan gets hired again. I do. And I hope Alvin Gentry gets hired again. J.B. Bicker staff was held on in Cleveland. And so Jock Vaughn will see it in Brooklyn.

but this is a league that prides itself on being the most progressive and diverse of the other leagues. But right now, there's another head coach who's just like, oh, that was already very much in the minority of black head coach, Nick Miller. Yeah, and I know other coaches respect Nate a lot. This will be a test to see if other front offices do too. And if they really look at what he did in terms of establishing what kind of team Indiana would be over this last half decade or so, really, I think he had a significant role in that. And this is going to be a big culture check for the Pacers, I think, more broadly because, you know, we've been talking about Mike Dantonie and these other potential candidates. This will be the first time, you know, basically since Jim O'Brien took over that the Pacers aren't just promoting an assistant or associate head coach already on the staff, likely. You know, maybe they do go that route, but I don't really see any obvious candidates in that regard to be the next head coach.

If they bring someone in, that's the first time that they've done that since the 90s probably, like the early 2000s. Like, that's a big change for them. And, you know, there are the roster questions we've been talking about. The Subonis and Turner stuff. There's, you know, how do we juggle all these different interests on the team? How do we maximize the pieces that we have? How do we elevate this and that? There's going to be a lot to account for in the culture of the team, I think, just by that

kind of dramatic shift. Yeah, and I think sometimes too, culture can be kind of seen as little nebulous. Like, we'll be concrete. T.J. Warren played defense this year. That was culture. That was Nate McMillan. That is a heck of a feather in your captain. right there, getting TJ to commit, buy it on defense, because he was not doing that in Phoenix.

And that transition, that's good coaching, plain and simple. That makes a nice transition to some other players who perhaps aren't committing on defense, the Philadelphia 76ers. So, I don't know, do we want to talk about the Sixers, or would you guys prefer that we stick our hands in the blender? Because I don't know how many more times I could say the same things about the Sixers, but Charks and I were talking about this a little the other day. I feel like, and Tom, you should know this.

It feels like the Miami Heat where we talk about them all the time that people are like stop talking about the 76ers. But I think people still want to talk about the Sixers because they're so fascinating. They have these two players, generational talents that they can't really figure out. Clearly Brett Brown is gone here. Well, Tom, actually, let's talk about the heat. Do you see like similarities here between this just like media circus

and just like the constant drama with what was going on in Miami? The Miami drama was so different. That was very player focused and LeBron focused and a lot of it was just made up. The Sixers are creating their drama. Like they've,

they pushed out Sam Hinky after like three years into the process. Then they bring in Brian, they bring in Jerry Calangelo who hires his son and then magically disappears. See a Jerry. And Brian Colangelo is now running the show.

Then the whole social media scandal happens, reported by the ringer, by the way. Shouts the ringer. Then you got him, Brian Colangelo is out. Then Joshua Harris says, we have one of the most coveted front office positions in the NBA. The situation with two young stars in the market of Philadelphia is going to be a sought-after,

coveted front office position. And then they promote from within where the guy who had no experience being a GM, Elton Brand is hired as the GM. And he was playing for the team like two years ago or prior, right? So then, like, they remake the roster every month, it seems,

around Ben Simmons and Joelle and Bede. You have their own injury issues. Like, a lot of these things are self-inflicted drama. The Miami Heat, on the other hand, were such a beacon of stability where they were just the same organization, same front office structure, same coach.

They said, like, like they were within the first week of LeBron James and Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosch playing together, there were rumors that Eric Spolster was going to be fired. That LeBron James wanted Eric Spolster out of there. And you know what they did? Pat Riley and Eric Spolstra told LeBron James and the rest of the team, like, this is it.

This is the crew. This is how it's going to be. if you have problems with Eric Spolster, you have problems with me. And that's the speech that Pat Riley and Eric Spolster were able to deliver is this is what an organization, a championship caliber organization looks like. I don't know what the 76ers are telling their players, right? But it ain't that because everything that they do, they reverse course, just like the Indiana Pacers did when they make McMillan, where it's like, this is our team.

This is who we're going to go with going forward. And then they trade for Jimmy Butler and get rid of Roco and Dario Sarge. And then they go and they trade Landry Shammit and 16 picks and they get Tobias Harris. And then, oh, when he doesn't do so well, we're going to double down and give him a max contract. Don't forget about Trey Burke. Yeah, Trey Burke, let's just like cut bait on that halfway through the season. Right. So I don't see much similarities with the Sixers and the Heat simply because the Heat have been doing

this and winning championships for a long time. The Sixers have just been a turnstile of personnel both on the court and upstairs. Brett Brown tweeted, I want to thank all the 102 players I played with over my last seven years. You know why he wrote that? 102? It's because it's the most in the NBA over that seven year period. A guy who has coached three playoff teams has 102 players over the last seven years, which is by far the most in the NBA. You don't think that that's a little shot at the front office on the way. I was like, 102 players that came through my system.

I mean, I don't feel bad for the Sixers simply because a lot of this is just self-inflicted. And it doesn't remind me of the Miami Heat who are the opposite, I feel like, in terms of franchise stability. Shout to Jakar Samson, though. No, but it's funny. The one thing that is consistent has been Brett. So like the heat, they stuck with Brett perhaps longer than they maybe should have. and now they're in a situation where I think the essential question for them is

can a coaching change change everything that they need change there? Is that going to be the fix they need? Are the two guys that they're building their franchise around? They just need to be utilized differently here and you get some shooters in there and then we're good. Rob, I do wonder,

is there a coach out there that can make sense of this roster or are they fatally full? Are we in for this team just blowing up one of these guys getting traded a year or two down the road here? I mean, I think the whole premise of this is the idea that if Brett Brown is not the right coach for this team, you have to at least try, right? Before you start entertaining dramatic ideas of blowing up the team, you're really banking on

a tie lieu to come in and make sense of this, or a different kind of coach. And maybe that's the most dramatic difference in terms of this Miami-Philadelphia parallel is accountability, right? Like if nothing else, the Pat Riley, Eric Spolster regime is an engine of accountability. And that's been the complaint all along with Brett Brown is that guys like Ben Simmons and Joelle and Bede in particular are not being held to account, are not being forced to play the way they should, or not being, you know, that voice for whatever reason, like, Brett is a good human being and good at relating to people and good at connecting with guys. But clearly that was not

his strong suit in terms of getting those guys to play the way they needed to. So there comes a point at which regardless, I think Brett's a good coach, but that voice wasn't reaching anybody. You know, certainly wasn't reaching the most meaningful members of the organization, which are Joel Embed and Ben Simmons. And so sometimes a change for changes sake can be meaningful in that particular way. I mean, it is funny. We're talking about Miami, Philadelphia. There were those quotes from Josh Richardson where he literally just said what Rob said in so many words. It's like word for word, culture, accountability. I was somewhere where there was culture and accountability. Now I'm not.

got to change that. Like, that was a direct quote from Josh Richardson. There's no better than anybody. Having said that, though, it would have been better if Josh Richardson, like, made a couple more shots, you know. Yeah. Initiated the offense a little bit better if he played like he did in Miami. So I don't know.

Obviously, the situation is a mess. We're running out of time here. So let's do either the Blazers or the magic. Tom, as our guess, do you want to talk about the future of Orlando or Portland? Portland. Let's go. God. It's the wrong answer, Tom.

God damn. All right, let's talk about Portland. Just freeze us up to do a whole magic podcast later, don't know. I want you to have the ball for 60 minutes on the Orlando Magic future. We got Ken Birch takes. Don't worry about it. But Aaron Gordon, though. So obviously Portland had a pretty miraculous run here.

They are barely getting by on the court right now. It seems like everyone just needs a nap. Like, in the middle of the game, they just need to set up the blankets. in the locker room or whatever's going on backstage there and take some time off. They're now without Damien Lillard, at least for this next game on Wednesday, which you'd assume things would end here. So sorry if they ended up making a miraculous comeback

and Wenny and Gabriel just scored 50 points. But we'll just assume. Tom, what's the path forward here? Do they have enough as currently constructed? Do they need like one more piece and they're good? Or do they need something a little bit more significant? man i think they need a ball mover three four wing um uh draymond green is always thrown out as the guy that they that they need but they need i think just someone who's able to relieve some of

the pressure off of dame lillard defend and pass um because i guess the the point is is that nurk was supposed to be that guy but he doesn't play any defense right now whether you can chalk that up to conditioning or where being away from the game game for a year. He's dealing with a death in the family, but they have provided absolutely no pressure whatsoever defensively. And NERC is a really good passer. But I think they just need someone on the wing, not a Trevor Riza. They got Mello, who's as dark, you know, as much of a black holes, any player in the league on the wing. So going forward, I do think that they need to be pragmatic about their ceiling in this current format.

And I love the backcourt with C.J. McCollum and Damian Lillard. But I also love the idea of them trying to swing for a guy who's able to be, and I don't know if there is a player like André Godala in his prime, but someone like that who can defend and move the ball and be kind of that wing defender that can also be a point card in a pinch. Am I crazy for thinking that that might be Kyle Anderson's music? I was thinking of them in my head, but that'd be a great pickup for them.

Like, I love that idea. And that's the threshold you're working with, right? You're not going to get a guy that defends and moves the ball and hits threes. Like, you might be able to get two of those things. And so Anderson's, you know, I already have visions in my head of him being in that, you know, the moharkless spot, essentially, of being able to, he has to shoot five corner threes in this playoff game, and it's going to come down to whether he hits one of them or three of them. And so that...

Isn't Kyle Anderson just... tall Evan Turner, though. Rude. How dare you, sir? I don't know. They've just shuffled through so many of these guys who can't shoot to the point where Harkless was serviceable

and they got rid of him just because he couldn't hit an open three. I think the myth of Evan Turner is that people see that he's a passer and they think that, like Tom was saying, that he's a ball mover. They think that he's somebody who's going to facilitate your offense,

but in reality, he needs the ball in his hands. Like, that's who he is. He's fundamentally kind of a bad point guard. And so, you know, Anderson is a different class of player in that regard. You know, not blowing the doors off of anything, but can at least get your offense a little better situated. I think ultimately this goes back to Dame. I think Dame wants to be seen as the ultimate winner and the ultimate team guy, loyalty guy.

And I feel like at the end of the day, he's going to have to make a decision. Do I trade C.D. McCollum, one of my best friends, or do I go for a championship? It feels very Lord of the Rings, you know? Like, there's loyalty on one hand. There's that shining gold ring on the other. What do you want to do? I mean, like, it's his life. Does he want to go for a championship to play with his friend?

I mean, just call. I don't know. Isn't going for the ring evil? Well, I mean, dumping one of your best friends. This is Frodo throwing Sam into the volcano at the end, effectively, is what Charles is calling for. Yeah, no, it's funny. I think if you'd ask me this about a week ago,

I would have said they just need probably a bigger wing, and they're probably good Trevor Areza filled a hole from him. I think they probably would have maybe not beat the Lakers, but giving them a little bit more of a run for their money if they had just anybody who could defend wings right now. I don't think Areza is the answer going forward because Jackie McMullen did a story with him where she watched the most recent game with Areza

and Eriza was wearing a Kobe Bryant jersey and Riza is one of the few players who actually played with Kobe Bryant in his prime when Kobe was like winning titles. So I really don't think Eriza's, guy there, but they definitely need that. But on the other hand, I'm a little worried about Collins now. This is now, what, third major injury he sustained. And if they don't hit on their draft picks, and specifically, they're higher draft picks because they're not going to be picking high up going forward unless the Kings, for some reason, trade back and give them their pick again.

I just, they need those type of players because as good as McCollum and Dame R. And, and Dame R. they're not AD and LeBron level good where you could just put anyone around them and they're going to make it work. They need those supplementary guys in order to really bring out the best of the entire situation. So I'm a little bit more concerned

than I was a little while ago, but at the same time, if everyone's healthy next year, if they make a couple moves on the fringes, get a tall Evan Turner in there, perhaps. Maybe they're fine. I don't know. It gets back to the question of,

what do you want to be? and in this championship or bust culture that we live in, is making the playoffs every year with Damien Lillard, who's an absolute superstar and just one of the most fun players to watch such a big voice in the community, just everything you want as a leader on your team. Like, do you think that there's some sort of psychic value of having C.J. McCollum and this core together for the future?

Do you want to blow that up for me? maybe a shot at a championship. But I don't know. These are tough questions for an organization to answer. They might value just having a core together and seeing it through. Because even with Zach Collins, like if you wanted to trade him or move on from Zach Collins, what are you going to get? He hasn't played, you know?

And it's going to be one of those things where it's tough to trade a player with, who hasn't, you know, doesn't have that much trade stock anymore. So you're kind of stuck with the core that you really wanted to build around when they're not available. Justin, as the premier Carmelo hater, is he back next year? What do you think? So I'm going to zag here. I know I've dragged Carmelo a lot. Almost too much, I might say. I think at this point, he is proven that he could be like an eighth guy. If you just need him occasionally to just be like a catching shoot three-point shooter, he's not going to interrupt what you're doing. I think he's fine. Worst case, he's a minimum contract. You just move on from like mid-season.

like the Lakers would have been fine with him as opposed to their other like 30, like 40 year old guys that they have in their bench? I mean, is Mello better than J.R. Smith right now? Probably. I mean, at the very least, like he's a bigger guy. He'll defend bigger bodies.

I will note though that Charks found a stat that he had the worst plus minus on the team during the playoffs. Was it just the playoffs? It was for their team. I don't remember the whole playoffs. Right. So it's not what you want to see.

but I do think that like he's still serviceable. There's a player in there still. I think that's the concern point there is that Mello was playing like 38 to 40 minutes a game for that team. So you have a lot to work with there if you want to, you know, bring, you know, put a Riza slot in for some of that, work other wings that you could get in the free agent market or trade market. You know, Gary Trent Jr. hasn't come in this conversation. He has to. That's a piece that gets them a little bit closer to where they want to go, even if you're playing three kind of smaller guards at once. They have some room to work with there.

That's a big chunk of playing time that was helpful in certain crunch time situations in terms of him hitting big shots, but also in terms of the plus minus kind of a sandbag. JV., can we get Blake Griffin there? That'd be great. Is there a wing defender on the pistons that we can throw in that trade that will make it? At this point, you'd assume that the pistons just want to dump the contract, right? We're at that point with Blake Griffin. Yeah, yeah. I like the idea.

That's a good idea for going to go for it. It makes a lot of sense. How many more years does he have left on that deal? Does he have two? A lot? I think we're at the point where the Pistons probably want to move on for him. And if there isn't a lot of long-term money still left on that contract, that's the right sort of gamble a team like Portland should be taking.

Now, I'm a little worried that considering their biggest issue this year was injuries and what we just said about Collins and then, I don't know, going forward if Nerkitch is going to be bothered by him in the leg injuries he had. He was pretty much out for longer than a year, I think, or. or just about a year. So who knows, but, like, Dame and CJ aren't getting any younger. Dame is certainly on the other side of 30 at this point.

I believe CJ is just about to be. Having said that, I need good Blake Griffin minutes to come back. Like, he's had too much of a impactful career in this league to just, like, wilt away, playing next to Bobby Brown and some of the other guys that I can't even come out on. This is Christian Wooderation. How could you forget about Christian Wooder? Oh my God, Christian Wood. Yeah. That's actually the take here. You need to clear space for Christian Wood.

Right. Build around the face of your franchise needs to be Christian Wood. So Blake has one more year and then a player option the following year, which it's at almost 40 million. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's going to take that. Real quick here, before we sign off, Raptors and Celtics. As we've been talking, there's been more talk about the Raptors and Celtics series being boycotted. We'll see what happens there. But assuming this goes on, the first game is scheduled to be tomorrow. Any quick thoughts, Rob, then we can go around a little bit, just about going into that series and maybe some keys for that. I mean, if the series does start on time and go as expected, these two teams have been kind of circling each other all year.

It's been one of the matchups I've been most excited to see in terms of the dynamics of it. It changes a little bit with Gordon Hayward's situation. But, I mean, the Raptors are ferocious. They're fun as hell. This is the kind of team you want to see them tested against, a really versatile. good defensive team like the Celtics. I'm really looking forward to the chess match of it. Yeah, I do wonder about the Hayward piece.

I feel like he is a very important player for a series like this. Toronto plays such good defense. It's going to be a freaking war and a grind for Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kemba Walker. If those guys can score consistently against Toronto, they might win, but it's not going to be easy. Yeah, Kyle Lowry, let's hope he's healthy because I think he could give Kemba fits. Kemba has been coming back from a knee injury and has looked pretty good. They've ramped up his minutes during the seating games, and he's looked really good. But I would not want to face Kyle Lowry, healthy Kyle Lowry in a playoff series if I'm Kemba Walker,

trying to make my first deep playoff front of my career. I'll just say that because they're going to throw multiple bodies on multiple defensive coverages. And that's where Gordon Hayward, as a stabilizer, could really, really help. So I think it's going to be an awesome series. and two teams that are full of really good young players that are ready to prove that they belong. And the Raptors, of course, winning the championship last year, even though they did that,

I think they still just have a huge chip on their shoulder about, you know, Kauai Leonard leaving. And now they're still, I don't think many people are picking them to win at all. Kimball Walker, another Yukon legend, is a key to the series, is what you're saying? That's what I'm hearing. Yes, that is what I'm saying. and I'm trying to think of a Wake Forest player here. I don't think they're going to combat that.

Ish Smith, where are you at? Ish Smith. Alfred Rukamino. There's a guy, I don't know, Chris Paul. Jaylon Horde. Kemba, man, after watching him in Charlotte here the last few years, it's going to be great to see what Kembo can do. And we already know he can win a championship, right, JV?

Oh, totally. You might even say, too, had he just stayed put. or have they given him any teammate in Charlotte who is worth a damn. But yeah, it's going to be a fascinating series. I've loved, obviously, watching Kemba kind of come alive again in the first round, although it was against the Sixers. So who knows what he will be going forward. It is a bummer, though.

I think the through line of what you guys are saying is a lot of this is coming down to absences and injuries. Loverry might be out. Hayward certainly will be out, and we'll see what happens from there. But we'll see. I'm really excited about this series. It's the only second round series actually booked right now. So hopefully we get a couple other ones in keeping the playoffs moving. That's a good place to stop here.

Tom, thank you for joining us, my friend. It's good to see you. Yeah, well, thanks for having me on. Always good to be with you guys. All right, that's it for us. Thank you to Tom. Thank you to Rob and Charks. And thank you to Steve and Sasha for producing us.

We will be back next week. Until then, I'll see you later. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.