The Ringer NBA Show - A Countdown of the Absurd ClippersGate Outcomes. Plus, the Most Intriguing Training Camp Battles | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are back with another edition of Group Chat and take a deep dive into the mess that was ClippersGate and the funniest moments of the whole scandal. Did this ultimately just become a pissing contest between Steve Ballmer and the NBA? Plus, there are some intriguing training camp battles to look forward to in the next couple of weeks. Which veteran signings could become starters for their new teams? 05:26 - Kawhi finally returns to Toronto and leaves the Clippers in the dust 21:18 - The misreporting of the scandal 42:50 - Intriguing training camp battles and starting lineups: Knicks, Lakers, Heat, Wizards, and Mavericks The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Kyle Mann Producers: Victoria Valencia, Liz Jerry, and Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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anything 30, 30. Get almost, almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now. Order a minimum of $30 required, valid on grocery, convenience, retail, specialty foods, or flower delivery orders only, Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by DeZone. DeZone is the only place to watch every single NFL game,

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I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle, man. We're back. So hello to all the loyal group chat listeners, but specifically, hello to the ladies. Okay. Who came out, I wouldn't say in droves after the last podcast, after I suggested there are only four of you out there. There are at minimum, I would say 14.

and so we appreciate your patronage and we just want to give you a special hello. Solid 10 more than we thought. Yeah. I was culpable in that too. Don't take the blame there, Justin. I was guilty. I had low expectations.

And I was very pleasantly surprised from the people who reached out and it was nice to hear from them. See, y'all are making it weird, you know? We already raised it once. You were supposed to let it go. And you're drawn too much attention to it. We need to recognize this burgeoning caucus

that is forming here. group chat in STEM, perhaps, is what we need. Ladies in group chat, we could workshop it a little bit. You're saying believe women when they tell you they listen to group chat. Yes, exactly that. I was told, quote, unquote, we sound like we just haven't talked to girls in a while. That's what I was told. And I was like, well, I'm married for 16 years on me.

And that's, it's true. Yeah, talk to girl, but. I don't have the same excuse, but same. Yeah. Right. But we're back getting into the flow of things, not quite fully back. We have the preseason power rankings on the offing in the future here. Two weeks from now, we're going to start recording those.

So that's next up. You might not hear from us for like a week or two or three, but then you'll hear from us a lot. Too much, maybe. Yes. What else is going on? Buckle up, buddy. Biggest news that we have to announce to the fans is just the one-on-one is, is, officially dead. The matchup of the century, we were offered an opportunity to do it at an

NBA practice arena first in front of NBA personnel that was dispatched. It was denied by our friends here. And then our producer, Isaiah, graciously offered to do that to set us up when we were in L.A. in a couple weeks. We got a know from you guys as well. So it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I mean, the check isn't big enough. I'm going to be honest. I'm going to be honest about it. You put enough money on the table, give a Kyle and I a reason to embarrass ourselves in front of the internet, then maybe we can have a conversation. But doing it for free, for content, I simply can't sign off on that. Here's the thing that I have realized as someone playing basketball at this stage of life is I just lightheartedly at one point recorded my pickup group for my own,

for a project that I was working on. And when I reviewed the footage, I realized myself, you never want to be seen on camera playing basketball if you're past a certain age. No matter what you think is going on, that is not what's going on. But I like Rob's excuse. I was trying to think about how we could twist this. But yeah, man, we need to, if the humiliation is what I'm saying it is in that sense, we've got to get an equal bag or somebody's got to back the brinks up for us to compensate us for our humiliation. I like that strategy, Rob.

Look, Justin, if you want to step to the line here, Kyle and I can nominate a champion to play against you one-on-one for content. And we can see what you're made of if you like. No, the whole appeal is busting each other's ass. And so if I could do it with one of you guys, then perhaps. But no, you can't like get a ringer, like a literal ringer to come in. You can't get Richard Jefferson all of a sudden. Yeah.

Well, I did. Maybe Victoria plays our video producer. She maybe could bust one on you. I don't know. We'll see. I fully believe it. I also did offer, I want to say, for the record, to fully embarrass Kyle in the privacy of our own gym and then we could recount that tale on this podcast.

I like that. That's what that was true. It would just be based on my interpretation. I like that. Yeah, you can tell the game story and we can go from there. Okay. Maybe we need to get a bake sale together. You know, like a little church social going in order to come up with the funds to make

this happen. But for now it's dead, unfortunately. All right. Any other any other new business you want to attend to? Before we get to this action. Not a single bit. to come out. Justin comes out to swipes immediately at us.

Yeah, okay. What else is new, really, in that regard? I'm just like getting through all the checking the boxes, going through all the information that people are waiting to hear about. Well, I think what they might be waiting to hear about is the NBA. Do we have anything related to the NBA to talk about? That's true. I'll say this.

I saw a list recently of the players who were injured last year who were expected to be coming back. Yeah. I got a little excited. I felt the tingle start to flow through me. it was like, oh, Dame is going to play basketball next year. Tyrese Halliburton is going to play basketball next year. Like that compounded by the new tanking rules where bad teams might actually just play basketball to win the game.

Like, this could be a very good season, despite what has been an incredibly messy offseason, all the owner's stuff. And of course, the Clippers stuff, which we got a resolution to the other day, I guess. It seems like it's continuing on. There was an update just today. The DOJ investigation is continuing apace. So that's a whole next chapter to this all. But we did at the very least, Rob, get Kauai Leonard to a different team.

Yes. Which is nice. He is now on the Toronto Raptors yet again. There was a nice little sizzle reel from the Raptors being like, oh, it's great to be back. I don't know if I'm ready for the warm and fuzzies for Kauai being back with Toronto, but it's nice that he's going to play basketball again for the Raptors. I mean, the Toronto part of this is unequivocally kind of sick, no? Like trading Brandon Ingram and some picks for Kauai Leonard, who was in.

unmistakably better basketball player in literally every way so long as he's healthy enough to play. That's a huge win. Like seeing that team accelerate after what we saw from them in the playoffs is really exciting. Like I am ready for some warm and fuzzies. I am ready to relive the bounces on the rim. I'm ready to relive the title run. Like, Kwai Leonard Toronto Raptor is a legitimately meaningful thing despite the fact that the man himself is so mercenary that he has now left multiple franchises in ruin upon his departure. So for whatever it's worth, I am eager.

to see it. From the Toronto perspective, this is trading your beat-up Isuzu trooper for a new range rover. This is a pretty good situation for them. I was kind of amused with some of the quotes from the Kauai thing where they're in the gym with him where he comes down and says, look, man, I'm not, I'm obviously not ring chasing, I think was the exact phrasing. I'm not championship. I was like a little backhanded there at the Raptors like, it's clear that I'm not trying to go do something big here. I mean, look at these, you know, look at these guys. I was, It was just kind of the equivalent of, I wrote down here, you know, just in years from now when internet dating has worn him down and he lowers his standards in whatever way and we see him

and he sees Robin and he's like, look, guys, I clearly wasn't chasing a smoke show. It just kind of, it was just a little backhanded, I thought, at the Raptors, who I think are going to actually be pretty fun. Like, you swapping Brandon Ingram's inclinations and on court style for Kauai, you know, regardless of the circumstances, is a win. I think that's what I'm going to say. This is supposed to be me in the future or is this supposed to be me in like five hours from now? Well, we met at the preseason power ranking, right? Okay, yeah, like a couple weeks from now. But can't all be first round picks, Rob.

Yeah, Justin says to us, yeah. I can't wait. But I do think. I'm going to mind the second round, yeah. As far as the Raptors go, I kind of wonder if the Knicks winning has opened to the door for a different level of like, why not us discourse. Like weird up and down regular season. Things are kind of working, but they're not perfect.

but if everything comes together at the right time, if you have enough talent, if you just swing for the fences with a player like Kauai, why can't you get into some meaningful contending conversations? Why couldn't the Raptors be in the mix? I'm kind of waiting to hear the argument of why they wouldn't give a lot of these top teams in the East

at least a good run for their money. Yes, the East does seem open next year. I think the Knicks will probably be the presumed front runner, if only because of what they did in the finals. But last year, to your point, like if you had checked in with them like a month before the playoffs began, we would be like, this team is in disarray.

I don't know if they'll get out of the second round. They struggled in the first couple games against the Hawks. And so I can see something similar happen with it where a darker sort of bump through there. But on the flip side of this, I do think the biggest thing is probably the Clippers getting back draft picks. They get two first unprotected in one swap from the Raptors. And so they gave up five in the deciding punishment from the NBA. And so at least they get halfway back there. I was a little curious when the initial punishment came down because I thought the

Dume saying was a little premature, both because of this deal that they had in their back pocket that the punishment didn't really preclude them from continuing. It didn't strike Kauai from being able to being traded. If anything, he got off basically Scott Free from all of the things that came down on the Clippers. We'll talk about that a little bit later. I was also wondering if, like the Minnesota Timberwolves before them, they were going to ever recoup some of the five picks that they were going to give up.

Because if you look at some of the news briefs from when the wolves got the picks back, it was literally David Stern a year later being like, good behavior. You guys have been great. I'm just going to give you a pick back. And so they got two of those. They ultimately only lost three. And I was like, oh, maybe they get those back. Unfortunately, at the BOG the other day, Silver did say that the verdict was final.

And I think the reading that you're hearing from a lot of people is that those five picks will be final. I don't know though, because there was a lot of gray error there. I don't know if you guys heard that. You have any thoughts on that. I still think there's a possibility that the clippers come out with maybe one pick back, maybe they get two picks back, because that is the precedent that they're following so clearly with all the punishments here. But if they get like four picks out of this, like all of a sudden this doesn't seem as dire. I think it's really like how much you want to go to the clippers at that point, rather than a team that's completely been just like gutted

of everything that they have to build forward. Well, I mean, that's a, I think we're assuming a lot of, like, penciling in the four picks. The two that they get from the Raptors, the 2027 pick, I don't think is going to be that great because I expect the Raptors to be pretty good. We'll see about the 2031 pick. It is the Joe Smith-style return of picks that intrigues me, though. And I'll say that in part because I'm not sure that an apology from Steve,

Balmer really like means anything in the grand scheme of things. But it was like shocking to see a billionaire apologize for literally anything in this day. Well, did he apologize? Kind of. Big Bill Clinton 98 energy from him. Yeah. I did he went, I did not have relations to I have sinned. You know, there was.

I apologize. That was more to the fans for the distraction. For the distress that we have caused more so than anything. But I think it was notable in part because if there is a path to. picks returned for effectively good behavior, it starts with compliance. It starts with, I mean, they're not going to take full ownership of this because the Clippers have been swearing up and down for a year now that they did not do this, even though they clearly did it.

But they also can't because of the DOJ investigation right now. Whole different problem. But yeah, I think even just putting out a statement like that to me read as, we are doing this in the hopes that in two years we get some of these picks back. Yes. I just love how convenient the language of move forward. I just love how convenient that is for people who have done. And I'm thinking about trying it out in my own personal life the next time something at home goes, you know, next time I'm like culpable and on the line and really probably on the hook for some more accountability and, you know, repercussion.

I'm just going to say, let's just move forward. Let's just move forward. You know, because who's opposed to moving forward? You know, screw you if you are. Something's wrong with you. If you're against moving forward. Well, after we, like, woefully underestimate some random Eastern Conference teams and the power rankings, I just want us to all move forward together.

Let's just move. We can agree on that, that moving forward's great. We don't need to bring it up ever again. No, but I like this as a future venture where it's black bag PR company, but for domestic disputes. Like, you come in, you've solved the issue, you make sure that you don't put anything up against you, that you could be used against you in the future. But you get out of the situation. And I think Steve Ballmark could probably point you in the direction.

of someone because they clearly have been using those guys regularly throughout this process. I feel like what you're advocating for is like a weird Blake lively, Justin Baldoni-esque future. And I just don't want to be a part of it. So I don't know. I'm going to back away from that whole prospect. Well, speaking of public disasters, catastrophes, I want to go through some of the recent findings that we've been privy to because in the midst of all, a lot has happened over the past week or two with the Clippers. And obviously, I'm assuming if you're listening to this podcast, you probably know the main beats.

But there were things happening in between there, where I was just like stopping myself as like the alerts were coming through being like, is this happening? Like, it's one thing for the Clippers, probably the Sad Sack franchise in sports history that has just been beaten down the most for this to happen to them again after it seemed like they made such a big swing to finally correct that narrative. but like I have a list of at least eight different things here where I was like this is fucking hilarious. This is like the funniest thing that is happening and it just makes the whole situation just super absurd. I want to start first and foremost, which is probably the funniest thing to me of all of this,

which is that Kauai Scorpion and Frog style just turned on the clippers, presumably, reportedly, allegedly at the last minute where it seemed like the NBA, went to the clippers and was like, hey, let's make a deal here so you don't get punished as severely as like perhaps the wolves were in the past. They held their ground. And so Silver made a backdoor deal allegedly, reportedly with Kauai. He gets off $700,000 fine. And Uncle Dennis just like can't be an agent anymore or anything, which is like, oh damn. Like he had one client. I don't think like he had a real burgeoning business going on there. And so for Kaua, it reminds me a lot, Rob, of like, a murder mystery where the first guy you see, it's like, oh, murder Bob, it must be him, but then it isn't him. No, it was ultimately Murder Bob who did the murdering

in this case. We should be surprised that Kauai turned on them at the last point. Shout out to Murder Bob. I mean, he's doing great workout. I do love the head fake, though, when it does turn out to be the first guy that you've seen. And in this case, it was all pretty clear from the jump. I kind of love the fact that the NBA went this route, though. And frankly, you look, you don't have to hand it to Adam Silver for all that much. I think the NBA has bungled a lot of things, even as it relates to this whole saga and the ongoing investigation and the length that it took. But out maneuvering the clippers in this particular way by going to Kauai through the,

like, appealing to the union and Kauai's instincts to protect himself and the larger player base. And in doing so, just throw the book at the Clippers. Like, that's some straight David Stern shit. And so I didn't know Adam Silver had it in him. I'll say that. He certainly has instincts to protect himself. I think you could look at the body of work and say that that is true of him.

I was thinking, man, Uncle Dennis is honestly a more menacing name than Murder Bob at the end of the day, right? I feel like, if someone's named Murder Bob, it would be like, it's a little, I don't know. Uncle Dennis is just, yeah. Yeah, there's something a little off about that. But now that he's just Uncle Dennis on PTO for five years, like he's just going to be in Turks and Kekos, that's a very different Uncle Dennis. That's true. And O to get to the point where getting off Scott Free means I only had to give up

$700,000. I really, it's goals, it's goals. Yes, but he made like millions and millions of dollars off of these fake sponsorships. True. He got the Clippers to gut their franchise in order to pay for Paul George. We forget just

like how bad and soulless the whole Kauai Leonard error was because it's been so long since they've been just like at the forefront of the league expected to be competing for titles. Like, he would just wouldn't give them information about his injuries, which were considerable and persistent, uh, just in order to, like, know how to manage and when he was going to come back.

Like, he held them over the barrel for several, it wasn't just getting in there and getting the sponsorships. This was just like a years long, just completely, like, terrible access. You talk to anyone who worked there. It was just miserable to follow the team, to be a part of the team and all its other stuff. And then at the end of the day, he just fucking shit. on the way out. It's hilarious. I can't believe that that happened. I guess we should have expected it. I think the largest hit he took was waving his own trade kicker to get the fuck out of

there. That's incredible. Gave back money. Big like Lauren Hill vibes from Kauai. It's like, you know, has really, really good early things like with the education and stuff and the Fugees and good stuff. The miss education. And miss, my bad. And then very important distinction. And then, you know, we get to the point where like, are we showing up for the show? Are we playing? We get little lashes here and there, like at that block party thing. I don't know. This is nerdy music and stuff. But it's just, there's some interesting parallels there between

Kwai and Lauren Hill. So that's the first one I have on my list here. Second one, the fact that Dactronics was a sponsor here, like this was part 76 of the Pavl Tori investigation. And so I think like people acknowledged it, but we were so fatigued by the constant updates and how many things were starting to form here, like how much evidence there was against the clippers and all the different things that they did that like it kind of went unnoticed that one of the sponsors he had was for a like a mega like billboard thing in in the arenas

video boards clocks boards it's all sort of precision in the game environment right like what is it what is a what is a dachronic ad with kawai look like what is what does he say if they hypothetically and who are the customers it's literally like 30 MBA Oh, seriously. This is all B-to-B. Like, you're sending a slide deck to some professional sports teams. Like, what do you need Kauai Leonard for at that point? It's a liquor conference, yeah.

It was already odd that he did the whole aspiration tree planting thing. That was just weird and quirk. And we all got our arborist jokes off and all that other stuff. But, like, slowly but sure you see all the other sponsors. It's just like, they don't even sponsor. So not only did he not do any work for the sponsorship, these people have no benefit to be sponsoring anything. So there's that. There's also the Rhode Island Football Club, which I believe is still to be determined whether or not that's like 100

percent. I think like Tori reported that. And so that wasn't in the investigation or anything. But like as part of like his benefits, he got like a piece of a not even an MLS team, just like a low level American soccer team. Just like what what does one do with that? Justin, are you going to negotiate for your own like third rung American soccer team slice of ownership in your next contract. I'm sure Spotify owns something somewhere. You know, like we could get you in the mix. Slice of you and Heral Bob, maybe.

We could make it that happen. I don't think that's happening anytime soon, actually. The Portland Pickles play here. They're a minor league team. The Uzi Whatseys? No, absolutely not. The Portland pickles? That feels like it feels like they're doing a weird Savannah bananas thing,

and we certainly don't support that on spot. Is that a Portlandia thing? Like, are those, who's what's going on? It's an actual baseball team. but it's it's not, uh, it's not, uh, it's not, uh,

MLB or anything like that. It's just like, oh really? It's not. Okay. Wow. Thank you for. Well, most of these teams are like the,

the South Carolina banana slugs that you've never heard of before. I don't think the Portland pickles are outside the, the, the, like the realm of possibility of a minor league team. Absolutely. Like, they're clearly not. They're, they're part of something called the WCL,

the West Coast league. I mean, I just think you made this whole thing up. I think you've created a lot of dummy Wikipedia pages to sell us on the Portland Pickles. And I guess I applaud you for it. Or he wants to throw the first pitch. He's jealous of Mallory's social bus that's been going on and he's trying to get a first

pitch deal, which I feel like is inevitable now. I would love to throw a first pitch there. Yeah, they have great hats too. I'll take a hat. Let's start the campaign. Hashtag pickle Justin? Hashtag Justin for Pickles? What do you, what would you prefer?

Hashtag pickle me? All right. But I think it's got to have your name in it. We'll work. I'm dead. I'm just, okay. All right. Number three on my list here.

People just openly questioning Pablo's reporting, hilarious. And not only is it just like people who know things. Like I can understand if another reporter has other information, but we'll get to that in a second here as well. I was waiting for it. The restraint you showed it not starting there, frankly. Yeah, I did fact that I didn't actually. So thank you.

The fact that a lot of it. was just like kind of these sub-reportors, like a lot of like sneaker reporters who, let me just say here, just at the top, are kind of like the veterinarians of the doctor community. It's like you don't really go to the sneaker reporters when you want actual hard news and facts and information. They're the guys you go to when you need like the stuff on the sly where you got shot in the middle of the night and you have to go to a vet where it's all the problem.

There's a lot going on here. I want you to name names with the sneaker report. Orders. Are we talking like, or just your capital J. That's not how podcasting works. You just allude to something and you don't actually say the names. Okay. But it was a lot of people being like, oh, that's, this is just how sponsorships work.

Da, da, da, da, da. And it's just like, no, actually he nailed it. Everybody knows who you're talking about. All right. We don't even need to see. All right. Okay. It is, it is kind of how sponsorships work.

I think it's just like you do have to do some bare minimum. That's the lesson of all this. Like, just do literally one thing to, in theory, just, this investment and you'll probably be fine. I just, yeah, big, big win for Popple. Let's just say. Clearly. And as a result, I have been on multiple text threads with people from ESPN that I

haven't talked to in probably over a decade. And the Chaudenfroid that is happening as a result of ESPN face planting off of this story has been historic, I would say, which is my number four or five, wherever the hell I am in this list at this point. The fact that they just got this wrong so dramatically that they came out in full force being like, nope, it's actually not what you think. And they have people going up on E60 or whatever reporter-based platforms they have now here being like, oh, here's our in-depth reporting. We have three people on the byline. Nope, sorry, you fucking got it wrong.

It's the most embarrassing thing I've seen from a credible news organization in a very, very, very long time. and I find this hilarious. It is, I mean, look, they were extremely wrong. And here's the thing. Do you read this as they fell too much for the Clippers bullshit in terms of the framing and the story that the Clippers were selling, which obviously they would be the source if you're trying to craft the story that the Clippers are going to get off Scott Free?

Or do you think it was as you described where maybe there was a kind of deal in place between the NBA and the Clippers? And maybe the information got ahead of it and ESPN ran with it too fast? before it was all settled, or maybe the clippers were too exuberant in thinking they might have a deal? Where do you think things went awry, I guess, is the question. Well, if you look at the fine print of what they reported, some of the facts, most of the facts, are correct, right? But they were just positioned and manipulated in a way that it completely distorted the context.

And so the story was sold in a certain way. but ultimately what the clippers were punished for aligns with what happened in the ESPN story, which is why you're seeing a lot of those reporters come out and stand by the reporting. There has been pretty deafening silence beyond what I believe was a statement from Don Van Nata. But like they were wrong. Like even if they got the like the hardcore facts, the details correct. To just basically suggest a different world than we're living in now is just ridiculous. And I think you're right.

I think what ended up happening, and it seems pretty clear now that the Clippers got in front of that in order to try to control the narrative. And if anything, I think another sub-hilarious thing that happened here, it seemed like the NBA's punishment was so severe because they took such umbrage to that. Not only did the Clippers try to stand their ground against the NBA, but then they tried to subvert them, try to beat them to the story in order to lay the groundwork for some sort of narrative. And it seemed like Silver, to his credit, got pissed about that.

And it was just like, fuck that. We'll go do a deal with Kauai and we'll go out with this different direction. So that's, ESPN might, that story might have just, like, altered the course of history for the Clippers as well. Definitely could have. And I think it, yet again, kind of points back to news for the sake of what, right? Like, if you're just going to be breaking news that will be broken by the institutions themselves within a matter of hours or days in the vein of, like, leaking a draft pick or

releasing trade information hours before it's actually. official. That's cool. Like, we like getting ahead of the information. It's nice to see, like, the pieces coming together. Sure. But in this case, it's like, what was actually the account, even if everything in the report had been 100% true, like completely bulletproof, what would it have actually done? What would have actually changed? Like, it would have been the same material story. The punishment would have come down. Eventually, time would have rewritten and people would have even stopped, like, referring to the story in the first place or the report of the initial punishment. And so why does that kind of story exist? Like, why is that where we're dedicating

our journalistic resources as opposed to, I don't know, like, I'm more interested in, like, a deeper, like, look into the process of these punishments, much harder to report. But if you're going to dedicate the resources of several of the company's best investigative reporters at something, why is it just like figuring out what the punishment is a day before it was supposed to come out? It also is the issue at heart with ESPN's reporting in totality, which is it seems like they care more about the competition and beating the competition than they are about reporting the truth. And I do think there is a real chilling effect of what they're doing from here on out. And it seems like the public has kind of taken note of that where it's just like,

it's one thing to acknowledge that a lot of what Shams and some of these transactional reporters are doing is transactional and it is coming straight with the team. It's another thing to know that like to really be like shoved in your face the effects of something like a big story like this and how that sort of approach can be really just like just bad for society and when it comes to like actual things here. And so I don't know. And if anything, there's a real like scorpion frog theory here as well where it's just like, yes, the company that has slowly started to work as a PR face for powerful people in the NBA, like, oh, all of a sudden, should we be surprised that they tried to manage this story in order to put a brave face on it for our,

a team that, like, if you look back historically, seems like this has happened a lot throughout the years. If you look back in some of the archives, Eric Gordon is untouchable in the Chris Paul trade. Go back and look at that one. Like, there's a long history of the Clippers getting favorable treatment when they shouldn't have. It's a fair point.

And look, Pablo has gotten all of the flowers. Like, he's gotten all of the praise for this story. I really, I mean, the whole crew over at Pablo Tori finds out. But it's like that this is a story and this is a punishment. that exists because of their persistence in reporting it. We would not be here if not for that. And so the discrepancy of reporting a punishment that everyone's going to know about anyway versus bringing about a punishment through deep investigative reporting over the course

of an entire year, 14 months, whatever it ended up being. I mean, it's just night and day as far as like the value of dedicated, consistent, persistent journalism as opposed to chasing after this thing to be a little bit earlier than everybody else. Ultimately, yeah, it's like a pretty positive bastion in what had been a bleak. Speaking to what you're saying, Justin here, I'm not a capital J, like a lot of the ringer people,

but like this, it was looking bleak, that this was the situation where it was like, okay, where is the actual non-transactional information coming from? And if you look, you could take it as a positive sign going forward that Pablo's work is going to get accolades. He's been vindicated in so many different ways. And now the next person coming along can see that as a benchmark and be like, okay, there is like real value to approaching this the traditional way and not the way that we've become so fatigued with with the way it's been. Yeah.

Well, speaking of journalistic ethics, this brings me to my next point that Lee Jenkins is part of the Clippers organization. True. I didn't realize that in my journalistic ethics classes in college that criminal corruption and fraud was part of the inverted pyramid. What are you talking? What are you even insinuating here? I don't even know. You intentionally trying to leave me.

Well, he left the media. You used to work at Sports Illustrated. Yes. And I remember specifically the narrative was like, he's going to go to write the clippers next story. Apparently that was fraud. leading his his gay colleagues to strike.

He's enjoying himself. I don't know that hanging this all around, Lee's not the one who got suspended, you know? There's a chain of accountability here. There's still time. Next point. In the midst of all of this, it seems like the Clippers might have also

committed cap circumvention with the Bradley Beale contract that they just handed out and shouts to Nate Duncan, who pointed this out, because Bradley Beal, so he opts out of his player, option going into this off season.

He had a one plus one when he signed with the Clippers after he left the Sons, right? Presumably looking for a new contract, didn't get it. Ultimately, re-signs with the Clippers for more, despite the fact that he played six games. He was basically out the entire season, so he signed two for 11 his first time. He signed two for 13.2 with the player option this year. That's one thing, right? simultaneously, the Clippers just jettisoned Benedict Matherin, who's making about the same amount per year. It's like one million difference.

And so they signed a 33-year-old who previously just didn't really participate for them. And they got rid of a young player that they just traded for. Younger. This seems a little weird. Yeah. A little weird. Yeah. I mean, I think if you don't want to invest in Benedict Matherin, it makes sense to trade him.

I hear what you're saying in context. like all of these things. It looked, paying Bradley Beal is fishy, period. Like he's, has not shown to be a healthier or consistent or really even all that impactful NBA player. Like,

take a chance on him, sure, if you're a certain team in certain circumstances, but the clippers are not in those circumstances anymore. Like, they are not a team where Bradley Beale makes any kind of sense. And so this to me, though,

is like old school, nostalgic cap circumvention, you know? Like, in the same way that, like, I miss the days where our definition of an asshole was like Christian,

bail on a movie set like yelling at a PA. It's like if that's where the bar is, I can live with that. If the bar for caps or convention is like a little one plus one shenanigans, I mean, that that part is not so offensive to me as everything. Once Rhode Island soccer teams become involved, it's just a different level. Well, from Beal's perspective too, if you're like, if you look, when I saw that he was going back, I was like, man, why would he want to do that? Because if you look at like apples to apples across the league and you assume that his value is a certain number, you're like, well, if that's true, then why wouldn't you go? It's pretty flat, I would say, for Beal in terms of with his age and his production and

the risk of taking him on. He's kind of like had a couple of bats in a row here where it's like, okay, man, this is, you're not getting Bradley Beale from 2019 or whatever it was when we were like, okay, this guy's like ascend it. It's like, well, if it's apples to apples across the league and he can choose a situation, why wouldn't he choose like a winning situation? Because there was like talk about like the heat. I don't know if you all had heard any other names in the,

air there. It was just kind of he could pick where he would go and maybe go try to rehabilitate his value. Maybe he is seeing that with the clippers to some extent. But, you know, the thing that imbalances that equation is him getting a weird amount of money, which is kind of what we're seeing here. It doesn't totally make sense. Or there's a double jeopardy clause in the punishment. And if you have been punished historically for cap circumvention, you can't be punished again. I don't. I don't. They can't They can't convict a husband and wine for the same crime. Justin, you're having way too much fun with this. I've never seen you so animated.

This is just so hilarious to me. Okay, and part of the Bradley Bieless. He's getting pickled. I haven't seen him small like that. Not yet. So he signs with the Clippers. They give him number three, which is Chris Paul's jersey number. Which apparently hadn't been given out since Chris Paul left and came back.

So it'd only been worn by Paul since the original deal. When was that? 2012, 2011, something like that? Can you give the benefit of the doubt that it's like we negligence? You can't. That conversation has to come up in the not so illustrious history of the Clippers. You know, how does that happen? I just think it's hilarious that in the midst of everything that's happening.

They literally can't find someone to go to the border of government's meeting because that person, there's only two owners and both of them seem to be embroiled in a situation, right? right now that they still managed to fucking give Chris Paul one of these, you know, give him a little elbows. I just like, fuck this guy. Well, they already gave him the elbow. They gave him the elbow. They kicked him into the gutter.

And now they're just like driving over him with a bike for fun. Leave the man alone. He's trying to be retired out here. He's playing tennis with Russ of Westbrook. Come on. He's dunking on yachts. That's a lot of guy. He's probably going to be the Lakers new GM eventually.

So maybe that's how he gets back at them, just holds them over the fire negotiations. I mean, spiteful Chris Paul would love nothing more to become the Lakers new GM after all this. There is a weird thing happening though where it's like, it's one thing if the jersey was retired. We're now getting to the point where teams and players expect you to not give it out in between the phase where you have retired it. And so that feels a little bit odd. Like they haven't retired Chris Paul's number and so is it really a big deal? But the fact that they had preserved it for this long, there is a track.

record of them not doing so. And so it is weird that they all of a sudden did it. He's, is he not the greatest player in Clippers history? Like, what are we talking about? I know, but like, if someone wore 30, if you're gonna retire 32 for Blake Griffin and someone wears that tomorrow,

is that really a slap in the face? Someone's doing it in between the retirement ceremony? I think, I think if you did it for like six years and then randomly gave it to Bradley Beale, it would be a little offensive. Yes, this scenario, the fact that they did it before. is what is offensive.

Yes, I agree with that. I was curious about, because retiring a number is tough. I mean, in terms of like the numbers of players coming through, just quick Google here, it says over 200.

Well, I was just saying, retiring jerseys, obviously, but you know, you don't want to run out of numbers here, but it says over 200 numbers

retired in the NBA. That was higher than I thought. Well, I mean, 18 of them are Boston Celtics, probably. One of them is Michael Jordan in Miami for some reason.

Like, it's complicated. The Celtics are in an index card. They're like, these five numbers are available. Didn't Tim Hardaway, Jr. have to get his dad's sign off to get his number out of the Raptors and his dad said no and he took it anyway?

His mom? Yeah, his mom wanted it. Tremendous. All right. Last thing here. I don't know what I'm on, eight or nine. Prayers for Danil Gallinari. He goes on a podcast. Podcast is called

Acrista Ulta. Did you listen? Don't do that. Justin, do not do that. Justin. Mama Mia. They traded me to the Oklahoma City Thunder. Oh, I'm in heaven.

Good Lord. They have a no other pizza there. Not a big Italian population in Oklahoma City. What's wrong with you? I don't know what's wrong with it. I'm savoring it, though. Please, I'm Jack Nicholson nodding. Please keep going, yeah.

Oh, I'm crying. I don't even know the Danilo connection. What did Danilo Gellonari say on a podcast in a non-offensively accented voice here about this? He was part of the package that went to the thunder for Paul George. And actually he had a really nice little run with the Clippers when they were that spunky, like first round team. Like he was good. He was good. Unfortunately, right after that, I think he kind of just completely fell off.

And as part of this podcast appearance, he did say that the trade with, that's, Kauai orchestrated essentially. Changed the trajectory of my career. He got me in trouble by sending me away from Los Angeles. He deserves to pay all $50 million of the money he took. He has to pay it all. Whoa.

Yeah. So Gallo is big mad. He's a big mad. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Definitely not. Look, I understand it's frustration. If I'm Danilo Gallinari, I'm angry at a couple of people. One, whichever Denver Nuggets or Denver Nuggets of Philadelphia,

doctor or surgeon looped him into that whole medical mess that spanned several years. Justifiable frustration. The fact that Kauai Leonard snaps his fingers and all of a sudden you get traded from a pretty good situation with the clippers into a, you know, a situation that you tried to make the most of with OKC, but that facilitated the end of your NBA career, I think he's right to be a little fuss about that. I don't blame him. I mean, he's getting, he's getting moved around at like the stage where he could get his

last big you know big deal i could understand frustration with that because if you just don't fit the right timeline and just didn't have the leverage i mean he ends up in okayc in in 2019 20 which he played well for them i particularly remember him being a pretty good isolation catch-and-ch-chew guy he was pretty versatile but you know okay c just on their on their agenda at that time as we remember we all for all the complaining that went on about their tank era there wasn't very long and he was just kind of like passing through town at that and you know those were key years or years from him. I understand the frustration. Blaming Kauai is pretty funny. It's just kind of you're like mad at Kauai for having more leverage than you, which, you know, dims the brakes.

Well, player empowerment doesn't favor everybody. You know, some players are more equal than others. All right. So that's all the hilarity that I've assembled for you. Do you guys have a favorite? Um, I think, I think it's the Dactronics for me. I, I, I, I, go. Boingo too. Yeah. I haven't gotten over how absolutely useless. I mean, this is part of the aspiration thing too, but just having Kawhi Leonard as any kind of sponsor for that business and what it would conceivably do for you, I just would love to send in a room with some executives and have them attempt to explain it, how this is not money under the table. But unfortunately or fortunately, we'll never get to do that. Kauai ads are just inherently funny. Like, how do you use him as a really funny thing? Because,

I mean, New Balance had like these camera whips where he's like playing basketball with Jack Harlow. It's like just really taking minimal stuff and getting the cameras doing the work. But the H-E-B kind of had it figured out where they had those commercials where he didn't really talk. He just like grabbed, he palmed like a gigantic ball of like grocery bags. I forget what it was. I think it was grocery bags. Leaning into the like, we'll have to get Goldsbury to weigh in and confirm that or disconfirmed. But yeah, he's tricky to use.

And, you know, thinking about him speaking about Daktronic or Boingo or what was it, Locked in insurance. What was the other one? I forget. Yeah. I can't envision it. It is funny, though, to see all of these things played out over emails, like the whole plan.

You think that these people are running some sophisticated game in order to overwork the system. But it really is a bunch of people just trying to do their best, trying to like appease their boss. It just so happens that what their boss wanted was criminal conspiracy. Pinfoil sombrero. Here we go. Timfoil sombrero. Chris Paul. Yeah.

Chris Paul. Chris Paul. We're trying to figure out why would they scream over like that. Flashback. A guy about 5 foot 10, we'll say, in a trench coat and a big hat, goes into a phone booth.

We'll just imagine if there's still phone booths or some kind of kiosk at FedEx has a manila folder, puts it in a drop box, mark to Pablo Torre. He's the first tip. Conspiracy theory. Wow.

I like that. Chris Paul is deep throat for the clippers? How did we not ever consider this? Doesn't it make sense? Doesn't it make sense? Look, just saying. The whistleblowing had to come from somewhere, and it sure is how it wouldn't come from Dachronics.

Yes. I think the ESPN part of this is the most hilarious part. But that's just me. I believe that. You're getting a lot of joy from this. A lot of Justin Joy on this pod. That's what it's all about, baby. That's life.

That's living right. All right, why don't we take a break? Come back and talk about actual basketball. All right. We are less than, two weeks away from training cams opening. Crazy. Time just flew by. Rob was on multiple tropical locations, just living up, living the high life. But while we were just grinding away in the gym, in the lab, just getting better in our game. But here we are. We all made it here.

Are you ready to report? Are you in the best shape of your life? I have since eaten a lot of pizza. Okay. And so I wouldn't say best shape of my life, but I'm in fighting shape. That's for sure. I've been in the lab. I got the graduated cylinders. I got the beakers. I've been going to work, baby, this entire summer. I'm glad you got your pizza in because after this pod, your local pizza places will not be responding to your calls anymore. Oh, that's fair. It is. You are going to be iced out, my friend. What was that by the slice place across from Powell's in Portland? It's really good. What's that little, uh, it's on the corner there? It's popular. What's that pizza place called? Justin, you should know this. It's cross from Powell's. It's right there.

Whatever. I don't go downtown. No one goes down to Portland. Scotty's is my place and Scotty's if you want to sponsor the show or me or just give me something free. I will take it. Scotties is great. Pete's in one hand, first pitch in the other. Pickle somewhere else. We'll just, yeah. That's the highlight. But no,

but training camp upon us and thus we're going to talk about some training camp battles that might be happening. And apparently for the championship Chip winning New York Knickerbockers. Seems like training camp's going to be pretty thick with battles because they just signed a bunch of guys that I all recognized. And I am actually surprised that are getting these exhibit nine,

exhibit 10 deals for just make good. Let's see if they can make the roster. In one fell swoop, they signed John Conchard, Bruce Brown, Ochi, Abaji, James Wiseman, Drew Eubanks. I got to be surprised. Like, just say something about the state of the league that these guys are trying to play their way onto teams in the first place. But I also wonder, Rob, if this is the advantage of being the big market New York Knickerbockers at the height of your powers after just winning a title, is that you get these guys who just want to play their way onto your team.

Yeah, I think it's less the market and more of the incredible run, like, fairy tale story, incredible energy in the city and with that team. Like, who wouldn't want to be a part of that? That said, these are names we recognize, but we cannot pretend that any of these guys set the world on fire. Like Bruce Brown was fine as a Denver nugget again. Drew Eubanks is a serviceable plug-and-play big. Like, honestly, if I would have picked one of the bunch that kind of makes sense for them, it might be John Conchar. Like, and we say this, look, these are fringe guys who are going to play like a minor role for the Knicks. But Landry Schammett was in his position last season.

And he became an absolutely vital piece of their championship formula. So maybe there is something here that's going to be important for them. Well, it's amazing what kind of like operative. or two. The clarity of the hierarchy of that team, especially now that they've won and it's inarguable. There's no like point fingers like maybe this could move or whatever it is. It's like, we did this, we won, we went on this incredible run. So there's, there are going to be these distinct little openings where it's obvious what people need to do. And Conchar is the kind of guy who gets on the floor. And that's, that's where he lives. He lives down in that like sort of carusoe muck of,

you know, generate, he just is a buy-in defensively. And he's been on some teams that have been competitive. So that one's really interesting to me. Yeah, he stands out as the guy among that group, I think, that could find a way. And it's funny how Bruce Brown went from like, oh, the nuggets were like, damn it, he was the catalyst for what was the vibe, we're making the vibes work over here to suddenly just in this position. It's funny.

It's interesting how it's shifted. Do you think the cowboy hat still plays at MSG? Any place in the country. Midnight Cowboy, in New York. It makes sense to me. I think Urban Cowboy is its own distinct appeal, and Bruce Brown can unquestionably pull it off. Well, I do think we talked a lot about the second apron

in the restrictions it puts upon teams or as owners, like they decide, puts upon their own organizations. It does feel like the Knicks have found a little bit of a backdoor scenario here where they're getting contributors who start from the first. Lanchie Shamet went to the G League. They, like, traded picks in order to get two of the top picks in the G League.

draft to get guys. Then Shamet came from that since then eventually got a deal. And so like, they're trying to find contributors to fill the back end. And like, I think Shamma is proof of concept. If you're an agent, be like, hey, go play for this team that has shown that we could use these guys that you could eventually evolve into a bigger role and a bigger contract. And so something to watch on the fringes is like these teams try to maneuver around going over that cap line. Obviously, it doesn't solve their backup center position. They only had to default to Andre Drummond. And I don't think James Wiseman, no offense to him is really the answer there. But they're going to get a contributor for nothing. These guys, like, these guys are veteran NBA players. And you don't see these

type of guys looking for work at this stage of the season, regardless of what stage they are in their career. It's true. And it wouldn't be surprising to see some of these guys catch on, whether as midseason, 10 days, injury replacements as we go on. Like, I don't know if there'll be enough time for them to latch on with another team in training camp, just because a lot of the rosters are already looking quite full. But maybe by midseason and you'll see, at least a second crack for these guys. Well, you're hoping that Wiseman cracks on the hook, porty absence, I guess, is what you're thinking, right?

I guess. That's your aim. Like, he just kind of chips away at some of the loss value there. But is there an argument for James Wiseman, the player that we've known him to be over a Pacom Dottier flyer, over playing OG at the five. Like, I kind of would prefer even those options. And I'm just, like, not too eager to see what Andre Drummond does as in New York,

Nick. I think the downgrade from Mitchell Robinson is going to be very real. but you just need more bodies there. And I don't know that James Wiseman is the kind of player that you want. Yeah. But not the only training camp battle we're keeping an eye on.

Luckily, there are some that rise above the like 12th to 13th man on the New York Knicks. Why don't we start with the Los Angeles Lakers who have a bit of a competition going on at the 3-4 spot. A lot of names there. I presumed when they signed

Sandra Mamishkils Vili, which... Close, but... Close? What is it? I thought I knew that. Mama Kellysvilly. I feel like you snuck up some extra essence in there somewhere. I was like, are you really going to plunge into whatever accent is getting ready to have? Please don't.

Mamu. Sure. That's fine. Acceptable. Which is how we will refer to him from here on now. I assumed he would just walk into the starting four spot. Rob, what are you seeing from there? Because they have some options.

Laravia comes back. Zaire Williams, obviously in the mix. how do you think this is going to shake out? I really don't know. And sometimes I was approaching it the same way you were, which is Sandra McEllishvilly, to me, feels like what you would kind of want in a four if you're angling around a Walker Kessler

kind of Red Protector, right? Like a little bit of space, a little bit kind of off the dribble potential. Not the best defender, but you can see how he would fit into the Lakers' offense, potentially. But all of the kind of like reporting and suggestion around the team makes it sound like

Mamu is maybe more of a question mark at the four, and that Quentin Grimes is a little more penciled in at the three. And I feel very mixed about that. Quentin Grimes is a good player, more three than D. And so the question really is like, if you have Luca Dantz and Austin Reeves, what do you want out of those other positions? Do you value the kind of like spacing and shooting you would get from someone like Grimes to say nothing of the fact that he can go off for like a 20, 25 point night on occasion, a really

valuable skill for this team? Or do you want someone who defensively can cover for what Luca and Austin Reeves can't? And so that's why I think it's not surprising that you're starting to hear a little bit more about like, can Matisse Thibel play this spot? Can Zeyer Williams fill one of these spots? How you mix and match those players is a little bit of a dealer's choice. But I am a little surprised that Grime seems to be a favorite in the clubhouse when to me he feels much more like a good bench utility player for this team than anything else. Well, if you look at the competitive teams that, you know, in the race to be competitive in the league, you kind of look to find one identity. You're lucky if you can, like, build a team the way the Spurs have or you just draft dudes

or two-way players. The Lakers haven't had the luxury to do that. You have the superstar like Luca and you're like, how cost effectively can we get some kind of identity in the way that they've done that is offensively. If you look at the way, like, Kessler is one of the best lob catchers in the league. You think about the sort of implied template that having Luca create. You know, I think Cam Carr is a guy that the rookie who will come in to have flashes. Laravia makes sense. Reeves makes sense. But you've got a team that I think in order to solve the defensive problems that they're going to have.

I just think that containment defensively is going to be a big issue for this group. And if you look at what it would take for if you have Reeves and Luke on the floor, you're already, that's an implied issue already automatically. It's okay. What level of a player would we need to solve the containment issues that we're going to have if we're going to have a lot of, You're going to need, oh, gee, it's a job market that's very, very small and very, very expensive. I don't know that they're going to, I don't know that you can solve that problem. So I would kind of lean the other way and just be like, okay, we want to play fast.

So that makes me think that it's either going to be thiable. I don't think Thero is like ready to play. He's still so green. He's very disruptive. You know, I think it's probably going to be like, it's going to be thiable. It's going to be, we're going to create, we're going to play faster you. We're going to outscore you because I don't really know that there's a defensive, like, to offensively challenged.

I don't know where you all land on that, but I think they should just lean towards their offensive identity, honestly. I think it's two issues. I think it's the defense, especially on the wing. Like, where is that going to come from? But also, like, what are they doing with the backup center minutes? Because right now it seems like Kavan Looney is the presumed backup. I don't know how long that's going to start.

Doesn't seem like the optimal pick and roll partner for Luca or Reeves. Obviously, the screen setting is great, but the dude hasn't been able to jump over a piece of paper for five, years at this stage. I don't know, really he's going to be much of a vertical, yeah, ever, much of a threat at the rim. And so like, do you want Mamu to function as the backup center? Yeah. Do you start him at the four, but your first shift is moving him down to the five. I think that Mamu ultimately is going to be the perfect role player next to Luca. He just does all those smart little in between things in addition to just being like solid defender. Not great, but like he'll be fine.

And also he could actually shoot the hell out of the ball, which, unlike, like Zaire Williams, for instance, unlike Jake La Ravia, unfortunately, like he has the track record of doing so. And so perhaps you're right. Maybe they just go blistering on offense, at least in the regular season and hope to find the defense later. But it does feel like it's connected to what they're doing in the front court as well. And so I would assume that it's going to be starting with crimes just because of the name recognition, the fact that they signed him, and probably Mamu for the same reasons. But they have some options. I don't know if they're like all very good ones, but it's probably going to be a finding process for the first month or so.

Agreed. That does feel like the most likely option, not just because the names, but like the priorities, the investment, like the deals that those guys got suggests that they will be starters for the Lakers. If I had my druthers, if I were picking and choosing, I think I might go Grimes Stuyble and kind of lean into Luca's flexibility for lack of a better word on defense, the fact that you want him guarding kind of bigger wings or sometimes power forwards. I think that could really work out. And that way you can move Thibald all around the floor. I just worry if it is Grimes and Mamu,

you're really asking Walker Kessler to be like jazz era Rudy Gobert. Like we're going to surround you with guys who aren't very good guarding their positions and you just have to clean up literally everything behind them. It's going to be a lot if that's kind of the starting configuration for them. I mean, the price they paid for him was practically prime Rudy Gober. He better be. Thiebel was great for Portland. The problem is he's only going to play like 30 games.

But those 30 games are going to be awesome and he shot the hell of the ball. Did he get hurt? Is what you're saying? Yes. He's just persistent injury issues. But when he's played, he's been excellent and the shooting has come around and it looks legit. So I would love to see him in that role, but we'll see. Next team on the list here, Miami Heat, who changed literally everything about their team. The wings a little bit.

I would assume the starting four that's locked in is Bam. Wiggins, Janice, and probably Davion Mitchell. Yeah, that feels fair. That seems like it makes sense. And then you could probably change who's playing at the two there. Clay Thompson obviously got brought on recently, Tamara Jr., as we alluded to before. Also in the mix there, Rob, is there someone that you like above the other guys. I think Pella Larson's in the mix, too.

I don't know if he's going to start or not. But really, it's like the case for Clay is clearly the shooting and the offense mobility. The case for Tim Hardaway Jr. is like a little younger, a little more spry defensively at this point than Clay. Like, Clay has entered into a stage of his career where you really have to be hyper-conscious of where you put him. But Tim Hardaway Jr. is coming off of, I mean, he was one of the bench players of the league last season.

Really good shooter faded a little bit in the playoffs, but could be really good. And then Pella Larson, you're getting some of like the connectivity and the cutting, but a little less in terms of the reliable shooting. Of that mix, Clay feels the simplest to me, the most straightforward. My question is, does Eric Spolster care about that? Like, he's not a coach who always goes for the easiest thing. I could see him choosing to start Pella Larson for that reason. Like, it's always our assumption that, oh, you put shooters around bigs like Janus and

Bam, and that solves a lot of your problems. But having quick decision makers and good passers around players like that can be just as impactful sometimes, can be just as valuable. I could see Spow going in that direction, but I think Clay might be both too simple to avoid and also putting him elsewhere in the rotation, untethering him from Janus and Bam, might be detracting from what he does best at this point. So Clay, to me, feels like the answer, but I would not be shocked if Pella Larson is the starter. Yeah, you kind of look at the things that cause Clay to look worse, I think, in the past two to three years is, you know,

well, Kyrie going down, I think was a brutal thing for the initial vision of him. Luca getting traded, yeah. Well, look at that one. No small bullet point there on that list. But I just think when you remove downhill creation from whatever situation Clay is in, he's just not somebody that has, even like the simple dribble pull-up game that he used to have, you know, it wasn't like he was a crazy driver in those prime warriors years. It's just, and he's not the same cutter that he was. He's not the same defender that he was. I just kind of wonder if you're just assuming, I guess, that it's what's going to, you're assuming that a lot is going to look different for him if you're assuming that he's going to be successful with the

heat. Yonis downhill, I think is going to be great for him. I just think, and I was like looking at Tim Hardaway's numbers versus Clay. It's like, yeah, he's like a little bit younger, but what would Clay's numbers, for instance, have looked like this past two years if he'd been playing with Yokich? I think they would look a lot better. So I don't really know that I see an enormous difference between Tim Hardaway Jr. and Clay at this point. I might lean Clay, honestly. Well, and Tim, oh, sorry, go ahead, Jaby. No, go for it. And Tim Hardaway, Jr. has a little bit of an ability to manufacture offense still off the bench.

So it's like, as far as what you want Clay to be doing, he was relatively successful for a Mavs team that went nowhere. Like, he played like 20-something minutes a game and hit more threes over the course of the season than any member of the Miami Heat did. So it's like, it's not that he's without his value. It's just you want to link him to Janus as much as possible. It's funny that you brought up, Kyle Hardaway's veteranship. because next season will actually be one more season than his dad ever played, which is wild to me. Because if you remember his start where he was toggling between,

I believe it was the Knicks and the Hawks, like the Hawks contract was so bad that we thought like he would be out of the league after that stage. And he's had a completely separate career after that. So that's wild. And he's also creeping up on a thousand games played, which is also another. He was in the 2013 national championship game that, like he played for Michigan.

Like, it's been a long time. I don't know what it is. Some of these guys get in this weird, like, dissonance where you can't quite figure out how old they are, like the Stephen Adams zone. I don't know that from you to triangle of like how old they are. I feel like Tim Harvey Jr. is there. The beards never help, you know.

They just put them into a certain age bracket right out of the gate. Yeah. Let me tell you. I do think the heat's advantage is that with the presumed starting four, they have such a, like, defensive identity that you could probably get away with some stuff with that last spot. I think the question is how much offensive juice are they going to have overall that they can really like fudgeon on the margins. I just think Clay at a two spot presumably with all these other wings is like could get picked on even with all the support that he's going to have around him.

Tim Hardaway is a little bit sprier despite being still up there in age. But Hardaway just to me profiles more as the spark plug off the bench guy in a way that I almost want him going against second units in order to do that. But I think they're going to be really scraping the barrel to find any sort of juice here. It is going to be a mud fight for 82 games there. And you're just hoping to win like in the 90s, the low hundreds with this team to begin with. And so I don't know where it puts in that. Honestly, it seems like a lot of bad options. They're probably just going to have to pick the best of it.

I don't think they're that bad. I mean, even with Clay, like let's take his defense, for example. Yeah, he might get picked on some, but he's going to be guarding the worst of three perimeter opponents on every night. and maybe the worst of one through four opponents on given night. You can move Janice around a little bit, but certainly Andrew Wiggins and Davy on Mitchell are going to be the point of attack defenders. Clay is going to be mostly standing with the guy in the corner,

chasing them around screens, which not his strong suit anymore. Like he is not the guy who's covering for Steph and making a guard's life easier these days with his defense. But I think he can handle the lion's share of fifth option assignments on the floor for starting lineups in the NBA even still. Teams are deeper. now, like, just look at the Lakers.

Like, so if Quentin Grimes is your third best score, like, it's Claystein in front of Quentin Grimes? If the Lakers' offense is like, let's get the ball in the hands of Quentin Grimes, I think you've won. Like, if it's moving away from Luca and Austin Reeves, and like, that's what I'm saying. We're like, yeah, I like that points. I think

that's a strategic win. I think it's a strategic win. I think it still leads to points. It's very well might. They're very well might. Be like, all right, we got Grimes on Clay. Let's run five actions in a row. Let's pick on his ass. I just think this team that's going to happen.

If that's the option on the court, they're not just going to, like, just go away from it. But Clay could guard like, like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I think that would be a win.

I agree with Rob. I just go ahead, Rob, you were going to say some. Oh, I was going to say, like, Clay at this point is more comfortable guarding,

like, threes and fours than anybody else. And so it's like, you could put Clay on a, on a San Drew Mamakillish Valley type. You know, like, you can have him guard.

You're going to give up something in terms of rebounding. But, like, I just don't think it's going to be a colossal issue. We're now doing training camp match-offs. We're doing Nick's heat NBA finals preview. It's like, this is not in. Sick-oh, shit, everybody wants.

But in that setup, like, who does Yana's guard? If you're saying that Davian Mitchell, Wiggins and are guarding Reeves and Luca, who's, who is Yonis guarding? I don't know. I don't have all the answers for. I mean, depends on who's on the floor for the Lakers. Is Matisse Dibble on the floor?

I don't know. To move forward. I can't wait for the finals. to come down to this exact matchup and we cut back to this. People are going to dig this up and clip it. I just think the heat, the heat are so interesting because we're laying out valid concerns that I think. I also think Ryan Conwell is going to play for the heat.

We'll move on past that. But I, uh, because he's good. They're also going to, the way they're built, like they're going to cause problems for a certain amount of teams in the east. Oh, yeah. Like New York,

I think they would give them problems. I know that New York is going to cause them problems, but Philly big time. I just think this Miami team is going to have a really obvious button to push against them. Because of their size? Yes, because of that. Like the BAM was like one of the most effective Yonis contain forces in the league for a while there during his prime. Indiana.

There's just a few teams that I think you give Spolster that if he can at least shore up some of these questions that we're talking about. It's going to be a task. But I just think that they have a really interesting strength in the east, I think, in terms of just having those two dudes together. It's complicated it's going to be. Well, speaking of interesting East teams, let's talk about your 2028 NBA champions, the Washington Wizards, who practically are changing everything about the team.

Well, they changed it six months ago, but unfortunately, they just never made it onto the court because they didn't give a shit. Where do you think they end up, Rob, in terms of a starting lineup here? Because they have a lot of options. They do.

They keep adding name guys on their bench. and so they can go a lot of ways here. Well, in the vein of the heat, is there a universe in which Trey, A.J. DeBanza, Alex R. Anthony Davis. Those guys are all starters, right? There's no chance we should think about other alternatives.

Unless they want to pace A.J. along slowly, but I doubt it. I just can't see it. I think, look, if you're Spoe, if you're Steve Kerr, if you have that kind of political capital, maybe you can bring the number one pick off the fence. Brian Keefe? I don't think Brian Kee has that juice. I'm sorry.

That AJ camp is strong. I don't see that happening. Like, yeah. But so then it's who plays the last spot, or at least who starts the last spot. I think I would love to believe that this were a three-man race, but Blah, Kulibali has, by no stretch of the imagination, played his way into that. And so it's two guys. It's either Kishan George or Trey Johnson. And I think either way you slice it, it's kind of a pro Kishan George argument.

Either you start him and he's the best shooter in that lineup and the second best passer in that lineup, two really important. important skills given all of the space you're trying to navigate. Or you bring him off the bench, Tray Johnson is like, again, a cleaner, easier player to slot in there in some ways as a more traditional shooting guard. And Kishan George becomes the player off the bench who helps you manage this rotation. Because he can play two through four, because he can handle and shoot and pass and defend. Like he could be kind of more of a Swiss Army knife piece if they want to go that way. And so I kind of think they'll start Kishan George at the outset of the season with kind of a

jumbo look where everyone other than Trey is like oversized for their position effectively. But that is the harder route in some ways, I have to say. He could be six million of the year if they do that. I mean, I think that would be interesting rope to give him as opposed to trying to jam his. And nice sort of runway for him to develop in the way that we thought that he might have if he had continued open road. But the Wizards don't need any more open road for that. I think they need to kind of start to move another direction.

I just think I'm with you. I think Trey, Trey, to me, if you're trying to add pieces that. Trey Young or Trey Johnson? Trey Young's going to be there. More on his insistent sort of rigidity here in a minute, which is a redundancy.

But if you look at Trey Johnson, like the way that he plays, I think his shooting dynamism would be more helpful to the guys that they're going to have out there. It's a good call. Because which segues to what I was going to say about Trey Young, I was looking this up, man. I mean, over the course of his career year by year, he's been in the top three in raw number of pick and roll possessions.

Like, he's been just, he's never had a pick and roll percentage under 45%, which is, that's a lot. I know not everybody tracks that kind of stuff. That just says, like, and the only time that he didn't get in the top five, by the way. He was hurt. I'm just saying this is the dude who plays pick and roll. That is the way he plays. And he's 5-11. And it's like, I'm just curious to see.

AJ likes to have the ball in his hands a lot. And I'm just thinking if they're going to play the way that Trey's style kind of implies, it makes the most sense to me that you would have a movement shooter like Trey Johnson out there as opposed to another guy who likes to have the ball like Kishon. I would assume that they start with Kishon for all the reasons you probably expect.

One, more of a veteran. He's more of an established guy than Trey Johnson, so you want to give him the nod. I also think like they have an identity by being so huge. Like if you're starting shooting guard is 6.8 and your three is six, nine and like a beast and getting bigger, like, that is something that I think you could like hang your hat on to.

And I do feel like they want to lean into that. And that was part of the idea of getting Anthony Davis in the first part, especially if you have Trey Young out there. You do want to insulate them with all these bigger bodies. And so that makes sense to me. And also they did make an effort to go out and get more ball handlers in the off season to fill out their bench. And so for that reason, maybe it lightens the load on Kish and having to be more

the second unit ball handlers. Obviously, Bubba Carrington's still there. They win and got involved in the deal for Peyton Watson in order to get Trey Mann over there. And so they have extra guys there. And so I think they start with Kishan and then maybe like the shift after that maybe puts the ball in his hands a little bit more for that unit. But a lot of options. There's just like a lot of guys who are really intriguing here. I think they're going to be competent next year. I don't think they're going to like shoot the moon or anything. I actually have a bet with someone that they won't be a top six playoff team, but there are a lot of people out there that are really high on what the Wizards can be immediately just because of the veterans that they brought in last season.

I'm high on them in terms of just the weirdness of the team. Like, I'm eager to see what happens. I can't wait to see who the Wizards turn out to be. But it's because of these questions. And there's just too much uncertain to think all of this is going to work seamlessly. There's too much in the air, as Kyle mentioned with the way Tray Young likes to play. How is that going to mesh with two bigs? How does like the lack of spacing potentially with some of these lineups?

Is that going to work for them at all? And does it lead them to run towards shooters or run towards a defensive identity? And to me, that's some of this question, too, when you're figuring out who's going to start at the two, if you do start Trey Johnson at the two, I guess A.J. DeBonsa is now your go-to perimeter defender. And how comfortable and how capable is he going to be of doing that right out of the gate? I guess we'll see, maybe. This will be one of the best transition teams, at least during the regular season in the league, I think. I think because they're going to block a lot of shots.

I think you're going to just see a lot of disruption, a lot of turnovers out in the open court, and Trey's going to feast on that. Trey, Trey Young, that is, Trey with an A. And I just, spatially, I think A.J. Stands to maybe have the hardest time with this,

just because of the way, with the shooting kind of questions about his developmental arc, he likes to get to the rim, he's a bully at his position, he generates a lot of free throws. I could see it being effective, but clunky,

you know, maybe a little ugly early on for just him. He and Trey together, I think, are the interesting thing that I'm going to be watching. Because if he looks good early, I could, I just think that's going to be pretty interesting. All right. Last one on the board here. The Dallas Mavericks. Who are they going to start at the two, Rob Bohoney? Great question.

I think there are five options. So this is a pretty deep category. A lot of players under consideration. Max Christie feels like the latest. in the clubhouse to me. Shooting in youth, at least kind of in theory, sometimes not as willing to actually take those shots, young, but not the most explosive athlete in the world.

And so the actual value of that May Wax and Wayne, Najee Marshall, I think is worthy of consideration here. Really all-slashing at this point, though. Not a shot to speak of, very spacey on defense, not giving you what you need there. Caleb Martin is probably their best on-ball, like, perimeter defender in this slot that they could put in this group, which that could be really valid.

If you want to lean into that. Zachary Reesachey does stuff. I mean, honestly, sometimes does stuff. What a nice little pause there was. Well, what does he do? Like, he's still so hypothetical that the Mavs are, I think, taking a fairly worthy flyer on him. But when you're figuring out these position battles,

it's like, what do you bring to this group that these other players don't? And I don't know what Zachary Rizsichet brings to them other than if you wanted to bet on his potential and you did not believe in Max Christi's as a long-term Dallas Maverick, then maybe you'd just lean into the potential aspect of it. And then the fifth option, I think, is just playing Cooper Flag at the two. And that allows you to play more of,

I mean, really, it allows you to declutter the other logjam of the roster, which is who is playing and where at the four, between PJ Washington, Santi Aldama, Mores Johnson, like, something has to give there too, and maybe the answer is shifting Cooper to the two. So I would lean Max Christie,

but none of these, like this is a perfect example, of no actual great solutions, but just different matters of taste for whatever you want in that starting five. Do y'all have any particular leaning with those candidates with this group? I think Max Christie is the presumed starter, not only because he held it down for most of last year,

but also he has one defined skill that we know is actually valuable there. It's just so he shot the lights out of the ball. Yeah, his shot selection could be a little bit conservative, but he also didn't get to play off of an actual point guard last year. And so will Kyrie, at the very least, take advantage of that a little bit more. I don't know if he's like a long-term piece, if anything.

I would love to see them try to swing some of their front court depth for guard depth. And I wouldn't be surprised if that happens before the deadline because they still have a lot of it. But for now, I think I think he fits what you need him to do. He provides a little stretch and then you kind of see from there. Yeah. Yeah, Gafford for Simons. That was my prediction. I just think this is going to, I had Maxie penciled in as.

as the guy there for the reason that you said. I think this team, Justin, I think I had it written down here. Portland is going to be seeing the Mavs kind of distantly in the rearview kind of coming as the next most annoying, like long, lanky, physical, defensive team coming up. You seem disgusted by that idea. There's nothing annoying about the Portland Trailways. Just saying, I think they're just kind of like the T-Rex gaining

in the side view, rear-view, whatever you want to say. I think I was, granted, we have a new, coach here and I was kind of looking at the style of Dusty May. I don't know how much of that he's going to carry over. I mean, he by virtue of personnel just played big and had and just bullied pulverized people, but they don't have a rim protector quite like to create a good analog there. The most effective two-way lineup, Rob, speak to this from what you, from your Dallas viewing if you think this is right or not. The most effective two-way lineup on paper for the mass last year was Powell, PJ, Najee, Flagg, and Christie.

He just really annoyed the shit out of people. I assume you swap in Mores. I just think Merez and Flag are going to be a very interesting defensive tandem going forward. Yeah. They're very switchable. You could play quote unquote small with Marez Johnson. I expect Mores to factor in a lot to whatever they do defensively. Do you think he's going to factor in a lot from the jump?

Again, you already have PJ Washington who may get traded over the course of the season and exactly the kind of deal Justin laid out. They made a deal specifically to get Santi Aldama. And like, I mean, Santi is kind of a combo three, four, but Cooper is going to be so entrenched there for the lion's share of the minutes. I just wonder how you're going to resolve this if you're Dusty May, like in camp, you're right? Like for the first 10, 20 games of the season,

how do you want to juggle this? How much do you want to invest in the younger players in this roster when it's been so clear organizationally? That's the way that they want to move, right? Like, that was the whole point in bringing Messiah in the first place. to give that kind of hard reboot feel. Does that mean Meres Johnson is the starter for this team? Does that mean he's coming off the bench

and playing 22 minutes for the time being? I really don't know. And I think that just speaks to the sort of depth that the Mavericks have, which is not airtight, but does provide a lot of options. Well, what's lively status at this stage as well? I think it's mentioned lively.

Yeah. Yeah. It just seems like that's been a constant battle. We'll see what is his status is going into media day, but I could see Sonti Eldama all of a sudden being more of a backup center for this team or having to jerry rig the backup center position in order to spot for a little while. Although I did get Musa Sisei who had some moments. Pretty good. He's the guy. Musa Sisei six years from he's going to be the guy six years from now competing for a Knicks

roster spot. We're like, oh yeah, that guy. I pretended to like him on a podcast six years ago. Well, they made a, I want to say they made a run at him on this deal. They tried to bring in Musa Csia already. So the Knicks are having the game. That's in your brain, yeah. So also, no Dwight Powell? He's not on the roster? Well, not yet.

Not yet. Well, I don't think there's going to be room for him, though. The Dwight Powell era, which I believe he is the third longest tenured player, or was the third longest tenured player with his team in the entire NBA behind Stefan Dremont. So really would have to pour one out if that turns out to be the case. Did you guys like Tosh Gibson moving from player? to assistant coach.

I was like, when did that move really actually happen? He's one of those guys. He was playing last season. He was on the court for more minutes. More minutes than any man his age, who's not LeBron James,

should realistically be playing. Does Dwight Powell get his statue? But it's just like a smaller statue just behind the Dirk statue? If he does, it's going to be a disembodied defender's hand smacking him in the face. I don't know a player

who's been hit in the face more times over the course of his career. career. He can't, he gets hitting the nuts a lot too. Some kind of like Dwight Powell wincing plaque I think at least needs to be in American Airlines arena there. Did you see that the Lakers are adding another statue? They're like, they have an entire roster of statues. They have a lot. Bob Iger? Well, too many. It's Mickey Mouse. What's the new statue? It was Phil Jackson, who surprisingly didn't have one until now. Perhaps this was like a parting gift to Jeannie as they just shoved her off the door.

Like they were lighting her office on fire. Like, we'll give you a full statue. Yeah, maybe not the consolation she's after, unfortunately. Maybe Jay Moore, you get a statue as well. Good old Jay Moore. You know what? Or like a plaque outside of the bathroom. Let's all just move on, you know?

Let's move forward. Yeah. All right. You ever read any of Phil Jackson's books? You guys are reading any of those? You know what? I have tried many times. I have not been able to get through them.

Let a pseudo. intellectuals. It's a lot. It's a lot. You knew it was bad in like Iheart Huckabees when the Jude Law character liked the Phil Jackson book. To me, that was a moment where I was like, oh, those must be like dushy books. And I hadn't read them yet.

So I just, that was, God, that was a long time ago. Is there a coaching book like that now for today's? You know, let's say like the MBAs of the future, you know, the finance bros of the future. Are they reading like Coach K bios? Like, what are they reading? What coach books are good? Yeah. I don't know. Are they reading the Rob Mahoney Dallas Mavericks book?

They should. Which I purchased off of Amazon. Did you really? Yeah, I haven't here. Oh, wow. Look at that. Just front and center. Thank you very much, Justin.

I'm ashamed to know that I did not know that existed. Wow. The cover is pretty beat up, unfortunately. That's okay. It's well-loved, you know? Dirk leads Dallas to the 2011 NBA championship. Mavericks. You know what? Not my choice of title or subtitle, but when you're in the championship commemorative game, all rules are off.

That's right. Hopefully you're still getting kickbacks from that. I am assuredly not. God only knows how many denim shirts he purchased with that book. Who knows? It's really filled the whole closet. New World T-shirts. I'm just jazz to get back into it. You know, the season's upon us. Let's go, baby. Let's go. We need this energy. Like, I mean, it's. Is there any particular bit or zone we should be getting into for the preseason power rankings this year? Last year we did, you know, some questions to bring us closer as a team, at least me, you and Waz did before Kyle jumped on. This is our first training camp together, right? The three of us, this is our chance to kind of hit a reset and figure out who we are and who we want to be.

How should we go about doing that? I don't know. The ball's already pinging, baby, you know? I already got the lubrication going. We got a sweat. We got a latherer with this podcast. A lot of pickling, a lot of lubrication. We got a lot of moving forward.

I was about to say, we kind of walked into that one. A lot of Italian accents. We're building out the profile of what to expect. You know, we got, you know. That's right. We're going to play fast. We're going to be in great shape. We're going to the best condition team out there.

Especially because we'll be the ones doing the night pods eventually. So we have to be. It's true. All right. Well, the next time you hear from us, we will be doing the preseason power rankings. I think it's like first week of October. So it might be two or three weeks until you hear. hear from us again, but we will be hard at work bringing you the content.

But for now, thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Clifford Augustin. We'll be back to rank some teams quite soon. We'll see you then.