The Ringer NBA Show - A Growing Appreciation for Glue Guys, Should Teams Hire Shooting Coaches, and Starting a Podcast With Shane Battier | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

Howard Beck and Raja Bell are joined by two-time NBA champion Shane Battier to discuss how he started his new podcast, 'Glue Guys,' what makes a good shooting coach, the importance of role players, and much more. Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Guest: Shane Battier Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA. And check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of

podcasting read on the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. What up? It's the real ones. Now we're back senior writer for the Ringer. He is Raja Bell. We are thrilled today to be joined by a true time NBA champion. The original No Stats All-Star, a phrase I hadn't thought about for a while, but I want to ask about. One of the most thoughtful guys, I've seen during my time covering the league. And now one of the hosts of the glue guys podcast, because we needed more athletes on podcasts. Shane Battier, how are you, sir?

I'm here to serve, guys. I'm here to serve, here to serve. The world needs another podcast. Like, you know, start in the universe. But here we are. Here we are. You have a podcast, The Glue Guys. It launched in September with Alex Smith,

Pro Bowl, former Pro Bowl quarterback. back and Ravi Gupta, a partner at Sequoia Capital and former CFO and CFO at Instacart. That is a pseudo-semi-eclectic gathering of minds. How did the three of you guys come together to create a pod? Well, it's a very random group. I didn't set out to be a podcaster. I went to school of the Robbie at Duke. He graduated two years after I did.

obviously a brilliant, brilliant business person and now he's a partner of Sequoia after leading Instacart, which we all have come to rely on through the pandemic to an IPO. And we'd have these great conversations about life and about business and sports and our careers. And we realized that a lot of the things we talked about, you know, leadership and teammateship and adversity, it's whether it's the boardroom or the locker room, they're very, very topical events and they applied everything in life. And so, uh, Ravi came to me and said, we should record these and put this out as a podcast.

I said, no, Ravi, I do not want to be a podcaster. He said, we should record this and put it out and make a podcast. I said, right, I don't want to be a podcast. No, Shane, I really think we should record these and put this out in the universe. We're going to recruit Alex Smith, who's super thoughtful and has had crazy, crazy career. And now as a business person himself. We should record this. And so I said, fine, Revy, you warm me down.

And so we started glue guys. This summer, we have about 20 episodes in the can. We launched our 11th episode last week. And it's a discussion that really reaches far and wide. And, you know, everyone's part of a team. And everyone has to, is trying to figure it out and trying to optimize for their teams, whether it's their family unit or their business or a sports team. And so we just have real conversations about our experiences.

And we've all played with the best of the best, whether it's coaches or all Hall of Fame teammates or Hall of Fame CEOs. And a lot of lessons that apply across the spectrum. So it's been a lot of fun. The reception has been great. You can listen to it on Spotify or YouTube or Apple Podcasts wherever you find your podcast. And it's been fun. It's been fun for me to just learn. And, you know, my 46-year-old has been now.

So it's nice to tell stories of the day when I used to be somebody. And maybe not my kids will believe me that I, you know, people used to listen to what I said. I was pretty good. I was going to ask you, did you, did you, how, but you answered the question, so I'll ask another one. How long did it take before you hit your stride on the podcast? I mean, I have my own stories about that. But how long until you settled in and started to enjoy it rather than if you were nervous at all to start? We were never nervous.

It's very organic. You know, podcasting is a great medium because there aren't no rules. You make up the rules. And there's no one telling you that you're breaking the rules. The only way you know is if people stop listening. And so you can do whatever you want. And you have a while before that happens. And so, you know, it's just us chopping it up.

You know, no different than us being on a Zoom weekly and talking about, you know, our wives are yawning at us or our kids don't listen to us. and trying to figure out business problems and just trying to figure it out together. And it's been a fun journey. And I've really appreciated my co-host, Robbie and Alex and their experiences. And really, it's just about learning and getting better, no different than our playing days. I bounced around, Shane. I listened to some pieces of multiple episodes.

and then there was one that caught my eye on one of the episode descriptions that I did not actually get to this particular anecdote. So I'm just going to ask you, I'm cheating now because I didn't actually find the section of the podcast. But there's one of the section descriptions or one of the episode descriptions, it says, Shane recalls Steve Kerr flipping racks of basketballs. And so I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about Steve Kerr flipping racks of basketballs. I don't even know where that would have been. Were you guys teammates at any point? No, this was a story that I heard from Chip England. So Chip, you know, the great Chip, England, you know, the greatest shooting coach of all time.

He actually worked with Steve as one of his first clients when he first started coaching. And I was lucky to find Chip, obviously, through our connection at Duke and Chip changed my life and changed my shot twice and changed my life. And he, you know, what makes Chip so special as a basketball coach. He's really a basketball psychologist. And his mindset, I don't know, Raj, I don't know if you ever had a chance to work with Chip or, you know, you played against him for many years. But, you know, he was unbelievable for me in changing my mindset and how to be an NBA player. And, you know, I'm a nice guy and I'm a team guy. And he told the story of like, look, you know, you never want people to feel they know you and start to take you for granted.

All right. you always have to keep people on edge. And so, you know, Steve Kerr, universal, good guy. You know, it's hard to find anyone to say a bad thing about Kerr. When he was with the Bulls, he felt he was being taken for granted every now and then. You know, by Michael, by Scotty, by Phil, because he was such a good guy, a such a good soldier, and we just do what he would do. So he came into practice, like, once a year, once a year, and had a calculated flip-out.

and so they're playing and running the scrimmage, you know, you know, and Rajah knows he's in season scrimmages. They get loose and, you know, these things are the calls. So there was a foul where, you know, curve into the hole, thought he got foul, didn't call it. And he used that as an opportunity. And he just went off and start cussing, you know, fuck this, fuck it, you know, blah, blah, blah, going crazy. Goes over to the Gatorade, you know, buckets, dumps it over, you know, goes to the ball racks, for us punting basketballs into the stands.

It's like, I'm out of here. I'm out of here. Right? And everyone's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't mess with Kurt. Don't mess with Kurt. He's crazy.

He's crazy. It's crazy. And, you know, that simple act of just going nuts once a year, kept people on edge enough to know that, like, look, we can't take this guy for granted. And he's got a screw loose and we got to toe the line.

So it's an amazing story, you know, for I think a lot of people who, who feel they get taken for granted and people who don't feel that they get overlooked all the time, you know, it's okay to flip out every now and then and say, hey, I'm here, I'm here and keep this up. You got to deal with me. And so, you know, I never tipped over Gatoradeer bottles, but, you know, I had my calculated flip bottles during my career, and it was a great story. So validating for me, man.

I've said on this pod before, I mean, real talk. I've said on this pod, like people, I went with crazy. Like people said I was crazy. And while I didn't love it, it worked because it kept people guessing. Like they never really knew what they were going to get. They were on their toes in a way that was that was kind of protective for me. You know what I mean? It was interesting like that.

I do have a question. I mean, it's just kind of you mentioned Chip. And I see so many guys now, it's been like the viral about all these guys changing their shots. And a lot of them not to the success that you would like when you're making a shot change. I too went through one. I didn't go through. I didn't have the fortune of knowing Chip, but like, what do you estimate?

I mean, he's just great at his job. I'm sure there's things that we could like go down a rabbit hole into like technique and whatnot. But what is it about him that makes him so successful at that? Because it really is, sorry, but like, when I talk to young coaches about that, I'm like, hey, if you don't know your way around, not the mechanics of the shot,

but the head of the person who shot you're changing, be very careful about that. Because like, so I'm curious from your perspective What is it about Chip? Well, we actually had a guest on our podcast, Lugai's, a psychologist named David Yeager, out of the University of Texas. And he wrote this great book called 10 to 25. And it's the psychology of motivating young people. And I've become friends with David.

Fascinating book. Highly recommended if you're a parent or you work with young people, this will change your life. And I relayed this story about working with Chip. And he was looking at what he called the Men. mentor mindset. And we talk about this on our on our podcast, but Chip embodies what every great teacher relays. And that's supportive and demand of, in demanding. So highly supportive, highly demanding. And what Chip did, and it was magic, you know, it was never about like, hey, you have to shoot the ball this way. You have to hold the ball this way. This is the technique.

And if you don't do this, you're going to fail, right? It was always a collaboration. It was always a collaboration. And so, like, Chip got to me, you know, my sophomore year after my freshman year in college, I shot four for 29 and three, my freshman year at Duke, right? So I was a career of 38, 39 percent three-point shooter in the NBA. So I was four for 28 my freshman year. I could shoot, but I didn't have success in games.

And when I shot, I used to bring the ball on kind of the side of my, head and chips like, you know, hey, I love to work with you, all right, you're a great shooter. I've seen you shoot. You can make shots, right? If you want to maximize your runway, all right, I think there are a few technical things that I can teach you to take you to the next level, you know, but you're a great shooter, right? It wasn't, hey, you're a shitty shooter. You got to change everything.

It ain't going to work, all right? And so I was interested. I'm like, all right, you got me. And he told me, like, for instance, because I brought the ball up on one side of the head, he's like, you're eliminating one half of the basketball court. All right. This is back in the day when they used to run floppy action and, you know, you come off screens to just shoot. They don't do that anymore, kids. That was an old NBA.

Let me tell you a story from my days. So Chip said, like, you're never going to be able to come off a screen going to your left because you're always going to have to bring the ball back to your right side. And the defender is going to be trailing you and you're bringing it back to the defense. So literally you're never going to be able to come off the screen to the left. And so you've got to be able to learn to shoot off the middle of the nose and keep it more centered to be a quicker, more efficient shooter. And I'm like, okay, that makes total sense. Right. So it wasn't like, no, you got to do it this way.

It's like this is how you should think about shooting and coming off to your left, right? Because you're dealing with the best athletes in the world and you need every inch to get your shots off and to give yourself. the best chance to score. And so when working with Chip, you know, it was very collaborative. Every time we had a workout, he would say, okay, this is the drill I want to do. Now, you pick a drill chain, you know, what you want to do. And so it really was a collaborative change and you felt you had ownership in the change. And it took a lot of work. I mean, literally like a lot of, you know, like months and months and months and reps. But the belief that Chip I had in me, in my ability to make a change, just enhance my ability to believe that I can make a change for the better. And that is

whether it's a shooting coach or a teacher or a CEO to be highly demanding, but also highly supportive is how you get people to change their behavior. It's funny. Listen to you guys talk about this because there's something that has occurred to me many times over the years, especially because, you know, you mentioned Chip. Everybody who covers the NBA, everybody who's in the NBA, everybody knows Chip England's track record in San Antonio and now, Oklahoma. Like, he's great at this. There are others who do this, right? The one thing there's not is a standing role on every single NBA team for a shooting coach, right?

You can't all be Chip England, but I'm sure there are a lot of other people who are very good at this. Rob Fodor's really good, too. You know Rob, right? Yeah, I know. Rob's great. Rob's great. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, sorry, Howard. I had to give a shout out. I've known him since I was like 12, so I am sure.

But it's like the most basic fundamental element of like basketball. The first thing you try to do even when the first time you've got a ball in your hands as a kid is put it through the hoop and then figure out how to do that consistently. Like, duh, okay, this is the fundamental of the game. You have to learn other things too. But at the end of the day, put the ball through the hoop. Why aren't there more shooting coaches on NBA staffs? Like this, this seems so basic. and especially when you see the success that this person would have a chip.

I would love to hear what Rajas says about that. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, it's interesting because it's so like right there in your face. It seems so it seems so common sense and necessary in a sport where that's your job. I honestly, I think it's, you know, not everyone. And I'm on, you know, Instagram and stuff like that. I have a young boy who's playing a lot. And we had to take his shot from being, you know, that little boy kind of like hip shot into more

of a, you know, adolescent shot. And so I looked around to see different things. And honestly, I think it's not everyone can marriage the, or can marry the, the psychology of changing the shot with, with the mechanics of changing a shot. And so I think it does way more harm than good when you, when you meet the guy and you heard Shane talk about it a lot about it being a collaborative effort. Shane, I have a son who's also a, my older son is a quarterback. And, his throwing mechanics are like shooting and going through quarterback coaches with him I learned at an early age for him like hey some of these dudes are like they're really fucking his head up and just trying to fit him into this mold that he clearly doesn't want to be in and so I honestly

think it's that how are the same with basketball shooting coaches it you could be you could first of all not everyone's a great teacher right just because you can do it doesn't mean you can teach me to do it um and then those who can maybe teach me to do it um and then those who can maybe teach the form of it, again, we're all anatomically built different. My younger boy could never ever get his hand on a ball the way my middle boy can because their wrists don't move the same. So like trying to make him shoot it like the middle one is nonsensical. And I think there's a, I think it's a combination of things. Like guys don't marry the two things. The psychology that goes into it with the mechanics that, you know, to Shane's point, every shot's like a snowflake.

they're all a little different, but there are some mechanical things that you want to be similar. And finding the sweet spot between the psychology and the mechanics is the brilliance, I think. Yeah, but wouldn't every team want somebody at least trying to do that for, you know, usually your weaker shooters or, you know, whatever. Sometimes guys just need like a little bit of tune up. So you'd think, yeah. There's an interesting dynamic now, you know, with teams. And I saw it in the front office. You know, we saw it at the end of our career, you know, everyone's got to.

guy now. Yeah. Everyone's got a guy. They got their own guy. They don't need a team. They got their own guy. And you see this not only in in the shooting technique world, but like the medical, right? In the PR world. And the prevailing thought is like, no, no, no, no, they're on my team. I'm paying these people so they have my best interest at heart. And there's almost like a skepticism from players on the team side that like I don't know I know I'm paying this person so like they're they're really really vested in me you know I don't know if these coaches you know are fully vested in me which is ridiculous look we all want to win like when we all when we all win we all eat right and so there's almost an incentive um misalignment there which which sounds crazy but that's the dynamic

and so why am I going to listen to this guy when I'm paying this guy on on this side and and he's with me 24-7. And so that's another weird dynamic that's kind of prevalent in the modern NBA. Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to comment on, I want to put a pin in that because while there weren't, like every staff didn't have a true shooting guy like Chip or Rob, but when I came up like Gordy Chiesa when I was with Utah, he was the guy who would call me when I was in a slump and watch tape with me, right? And we wouldn't, you know, it wasn't like a full tutorial of your shot, but he would get into like, hey, look, you're, you know, you're coming out of it too early, X, Y, and Z.

You know, in Phoenix, you know, I had multiple guys that would work with me. And everybody had like their own player that would touch your shot. Just in the, hey man, let's get it back into the groove type of capacity, but not a true shooting guy. That's interesting to me, though, Shane, about everybody having their own guy, right? Because kids are trained now from an early age, like a very early age. And, you know, in youth sports sometimes, you don't have people that have this wealth of knowledge that would. be more of a resource for you than your paid trainer. And so it conditions them to some degree to trust that person more than the coach. Like I had a high school coach who knew nothing about

throwing a football trying to change the mechanics of my son in the ninth grade. And I literally said to him like, yo man, I paid someone a lot of money to do that. No, because you don't know what the fuck you're doing. I'm watching it. No, I was with this one because like I watched it for a while and I watched my son in a practice go like 10 for 10 on on and I saw the guy walk over to him and start like showing him like and I saw my son's body language and I was like man he doesn't look confident and he tried to make the change and now he missed six out of 10. Yeah. And I'm like that doesn't make sense.

Like don't touch it. Leave it alone. But it's interesting because they're trained at such an early age that like, you know, you're kind of brought up to feel like, hey, my team is the team. Yeah. And your jump shots all you have, Howard, right? Your arm as a quarterback, that's all you got. That's all you got.

You don't have, you get that taken away from you, it's over. And so, like, like people are so protective, especially when guys get into the league. Like, dude, this is what got me here. And you're asking me to put faith in you to, like, maybe mess up my meal ticket. And so, like, the psychology is, like, so delicate. It's so delicate.

To really change your shot, you've got to have a hell amount of faith in yourself. And the person that you're with, you know, I looked at it as there was just upside, right? And, you know, I'm naturally I'm an A-B tester. So I'm going to try this. It doesn't work. All right, I'm going to the next thing, like my golf game, right? And that's why I'm probably a shoddy golfer. But I was always looking, you know, and the best people are always looking, how do I get a little better?

You know, how do I shoot two points higher this year, right? Right. But the psychology of this is my baby, this is all I got. And if I lose this, I'm out. Like, that is real. Yeah. I get that more for the guys who come in with some semblance of a decent jumper or really good jumper and don't want to mess with it at all.

But like guys who come in who have like no three point shot, especially in today's NBA, where basically everybody needs to be able to be at least semi-respectable out there. Like if you've got no jumper at all and you're just a, you're a, a defensive specialist. I'm trying to think of a good example. But like some guys come into the league needing to develop the shot. So why wouldn't you want somebody on staff? I don't know.

I mean, I guess you could do that. You could do that separately too. Let me just speak for me. Like I was always, I was like Shane. I was a good shooter in college. I don't know than anybody would say I was like a great shooter. Like at the collegiate level, at the level I played at, you could, I could survive being more than just a jump shooter just because I, you know, we didn't

have that level of athlete in the NBA. But I was always a good shooter. And then I, you know, I came into the NBA. It became, to Shane's point, it was a psychological thing with me. It was, it was a lack of confidence. So I say that to say that some guys you see come in, it might not be mechanics. Far too often I see a guy who didn't really have a bad looking shot. He just couldn't make them.

And me, I put that in the psychology bucket. Get with someone who changes the mechanics of it. And it winds up looking crazy. And you're like, well, you'll never make a shot now. And so I think, real tall, sometimes it's more, they need a, psychological adjustment and somebody to climb in the head and just, you know, Mike D'Antoony was that for me to some degree, the guy that Shane was talking about with Chip, he gave me belief in myself or displayed belief in me that allowed me to believe in myself the way that I should.

And it unlocked everything. And so a lot of times it is, it's more that than the mechanics of it. 100%. I mean, I think that's the modern NBA. And, you know, you have collaborators and coaches that can just make you feel like you can't fail. Right. And those are the best coaches. You know, Spow was like that, right? I believe in you. Do what you do. And, like, Coach K was the greatest.

I mean, like, I was, you know, he made me believe that I was the best player. And, in fact, he, like, he kicked me out of practice if I didn't believe that I was the best player. And so, like, he force fed me. And, like, and I never felt like I could fail. And, again, there's so much that goes into psychology of basketball and coach. coaching and teamwork. And also Howard, like, you only have so many messages to your team, right? You only have so many timeouts.

And there's only so much you can say before people tune out. That's just human nature, right? And so, like, you've got to pick your battles of like, what am I, what kind of instruction am I giving my player, you know? And like, they just want you to execute the game plan, you know? And if you can make shots, that's great. And so there are a lot of dynamics in a locker room and a game that go into the psychology. They go into the technique.

They go into the final product, not just, hey, get in the gym and get 300 rips up. It's interesting. I think you guys have, you know, like obviously your careers overlapped by quite a bit. You're almost the same generation within the NBA. And you also, while very different paths to the NBA, similar in that overtime. you became valued for a bunch of things that did not necessarily include your jump shot, right? We just spent a bunch of time talking about jump shots and scoring. Neither of you were big time scorers in your time.

And I mentioned the headline from a New York Times magazine story from 2009 that dubbed Shane the No Stats All Star. This was a story by Michael Lewis that got a ton of attention at the time. This is the front end, essentially, of the analytics boom in the NBA. Everyone's still kind of trying to learn, like, you know, not all just the new stats, but that there are different ways to evaluate the value of a player. And anybody who knew basketball at the time, I test alone would know what Raja Bell or Shane Badiere brought to the table.

The box score was almost never going to reflect it, right? It's been 15 years, Shane, since that story. And like a lot has changed since then in a lot of different ways. And I have a bunch of different thoughts. But I wanted to just ask right off the top. Like in 2024, do you think we, and by we, I don't, you know, media fans, but mostly the franchises themselves, are we valuing guys like you, guys like Raja, just guys who are just impact players? Are we doing a better job of valuing them and appreciating them now than we were in 2009? appreciating yes but we're still a long ways away from from fully understanding the impact of a guy like

raja bell too kind shame no it's true it's true and like you know raja as a guy i highly respected and he was an amazing competitor right and um you know i i hate when people you know put put people in boxes and just say he was a defender or just a shooter or hustle guy. And so I would never, I would never do that. Like, Roshed's teams won, right? And when you look at their toughest games, he was on the floor, right? And that was my formula. I just wanted to be on the floor.

So I was willing to do whatever it took, right, loose balls, running back on defense, right? Just taking tough assignments. Like stuff that don't show up in box scores and still don't show up in box scores, or advanced metrics that I knew won games. And so while we are much more advanced in the metrics that we look at, I still don't think we're capturing all the value of players that truly, truly, truly can turn the tide

over the course of a long run, over the course of a month, a season that turn the tides. And, that's exciting if I was an executive still to try to find those players. But the formula, you know, it's not changed. It's not changed. But all the metrics and the cameras and Hawkeye and all these things, you know, what are you doing to help your team win games?

And if you can do that, you're going to play because you have the coach's trust. And that's a formula that has not changed in 15 years. No doubt. I appreciate that, Shane. I feel the same way. Super, super respect. And I, you know, with my middle boy, the one that I'm on the road with when I see you, you know, I talk to him about that all the time because they live in a world now where,

you know, because of the highlight on social media and whatnot, it's, I got to have the ball to affect. Like, I have to have the ball. I have to be doing something off the bounce or what have you. And I'm, and, you know, I try to say to him, like, Ty, and he buys in and it gives me a little hope because he's been rewarded for it. He buys into me saying to him, like, listen, man, first of all, not every team you play on will you hold the same value in this part of the game. So the key to being a really good player is finding out what that team needs,

how to your point, Shane, I can be on the floor late because this is something that someone else won't do. Dive into that. Provide that service for the team. That gets the coach's trust. When you're trusted and you're on the floor, now you make your, mark. Like now you say to him, hey, maybe maybe, maybe our best guard went out of the game in foul trouble and some of there's some spillover into into an area where I could pick up some of that slack. Look, coach, could you trust me with this? But it's all about providing

like that value and it changes from team to team. And far too many of our young kids don't get that. I mean, you're in those gyms. Your son's on those teams. Like, you know, you're sitting there. You hear what those parents are yelling to their kids. And you're like, man, you guys just, it's, you're so backwards. Like you have it, you have it all wrong. So I would agree, Howard, like not, I just went off on a tangent. Like, I think there's more respect. The best coaches always wanted a shame.

Right? Like, it, look, for whatever it's worth, it's why I played for Hall of Fame guys twice, all of them. Because they, they saw it. But not everybody in the NBA sees it that way. You know, talents tantalizing, man. You know, you get you cut off on wingspan and invert.

It's tantalizing, man. It's tantalizing. Well, it's kind of wild. Like, Shane, I've marveled at this over the years. My stand-in example, actually, for the longest time, you'll appreciate this, was Strow Miles Swift. Because that was your trade, right? It was you for Strom. I play with Stroh.

So I play with Strow Mile first four years. And then I got traded to Houston. And I got traded back to Memphis for Strow-Miles. There we go. I knew there was a deal involving the Trump show. two of you. Stroh Show. He was so good.

I mean, Stroh Show was so talented. Oh my gosh. I need to update my, my reference points, clearly. But like he for the longest time to me represented the infatuation

that NBA teams have and the mistake that they will make over and over and over. And to this day, despite all the analytics, despite everything, like guys who could leap out of the gym, it just, it obliterates all of your other rational thought

as a talent evaluator. you know, you were a high draft pick, but at the time, I remember the whole narrative of it was a shame baddie. Well, yeah, really good player, solid player. Yeah, very low ceiling or whatever because you didn't jump out of the gym because you weren't flashy because there was not. But the Stroh Miles Swift's, like your career compared to Stroh Miles, like it's not even close.

No disrespect to Mr. Swift. But like that particular trap that draft evaluators fall into, I feel like has not changed a bit in the nearly 30 years I've been covering this league. And to be fair, like there was a three-week stretch. Where Stromile was an all-MBA player. Yeah. Okay. A three-week every year.

For three weeks. For three weeks where he was 25, 14, and six blocks. Okay. And you're like, holy shit. This guy is unbelievable. And then he would like wake up and, you know, like that Will Ferrell old school moment. It was like, where was I? And it was back to the same old stroke model.

And so like, look, all these coaches, they, I think, overestimate their ability. I can change them. I can get more out of it. I can change them. Just give me a chance. I can change him. I can get the most out of him. And very few people can do it.

And that's like the fallacy that there's so many coaches fall from, right? and over confidence of, he's got it. I can change him, right? That's crazy. I've always subscribed to like, I mean, I've never really had a chance to build teams like that. But if you give me the opportunity to take a, let's say a 10, like we all agree, he's a 10. But inconsistent, not a great competitor. You give me an eight that competes his ass off or seven and a half that I can count on to be there and scrap every day.

I'm taking that. Like, I'm giving me a team full of them, you know? Like, I just think that, you know, that, the competitive spirit and the consistency of the competitive spirit is something that's really undervalued, right? Like the good, the good teams and the good coaches always did, but far too many people still don't. I mean, just to my, my corporate, I do a lot of corporate speaking now. That's how I pay the bills and leveraging stores from all my basketball travels.

And when I was with the heat, we did a research project that, identify the two most important traits on any given team. Okay, this could be for basketball, this could be for, you know, Microsoft, this could be for your family unit.

It's the interplay of trust and what we call mission focus, right? So, Raja, every great Phoenix Sun's team as you played on, the amount of trust was, you know, super high, all right?

One to 15 coaches, training staff, right? Trust each other, you believed. And everyone was there to win, right? The mission focus was, off the charts. We're here to be a world champion, right? And there's, there's no, no mincing

word. This is why we're here and we trust each other, right? And those two factors will explain every team in the NBA today, every, every team in the NBA tomorrow, and every historical team champion and lottery team. Those two things are the two most important aspects on any given team in any industry, all time. And, you know, so when I tell my son, Again, you have to earn the coach's trust, like you said, right? Just by doing what you're supposed to do. Jeff Van Gundy had a great saying. He said, don't fail the plan, let the plan fail you.

Right? Like, don't fail the plan. Let the plan fail you. Like, just do as I've asked. I've thought about this game plan. All right, I think it is the way to win this game. And if you execute what I try to tell you to do, as best to your ability, and it doesn't work out, I will never throw you under the bus, ever.

I will raise my hand and say, guys, that's on me. But if you go yolo and start freelancing and think, no, I got a better way to win and you don't follow the game plan, now we got problems, right? Because there's no consistency and I don't trust you. Right. So, like, I tell that to people all the time. Like, it's the best thing you can do is. And you didn't trust that player didn't trust you.

Exactly. Exactly. They don't fail the game plan, but the game plan. fail you. And that it's so liberating when you can just, okay, you just want me to do that, I can do that. And that was one of the great, you know, JVG was such an underrated coach. And I, I love playing for him. He was a grump when I played for him. But I learned so much from him. And he was, he was so good. It's good to see him back on the bench with Tyloo in L.A. He seems back at home, right? Like, as much fun as Jeff could be on the broadcast, like some guy's coaches, it's just like

it's just in them and like seeing him back on the bench just seems so natural. Can I tell you, can I tell you a Jeff Van Gundy story? Yeah. Absolutely. Oh man. So I had been to the Sixers. Had I been to the Sixers? I'd been to the Sixers. It didn't work out. This was in the air, this was in the time where I wasn't shooting the ball great and I had some confidence issues. And I had a workout with the heat the next day. And my buddy came into town and we probably were out a little too late. I hadn't seen him in a while. So I went into the workout the next day. Grumpy as shit, not playing well and not in great. shape to be in a workout. So we're going through this drill. You're handling, handle, handling.

And Jeff, he's got the pad. Oh, sorry, this is Stan. Jesus Christ. I'm confused. But I'm sorry. It's not Jeff. It's Stan. Fuck. But anyway, any Van Gundy story is a good Van Gundy, so it doesn't matter. He's got this pad and he's like, you know, hitting us as we're going to make, you know, challenge layups and contested layups. And so like, I'm not running through the pad. And he's like, hey, I need you to hit the pad. I need you to go her. I need you go hurt. So I had kind of finally had enough. I knew I wasn't going to make that team. I had not had a great workout.

I come down and I gave him a really good shoulder and like lifted him off the ground like two feet. He fell back on his back. And I laid it in and I looked at him and he was like, workout over. I just walked out of the fucking gym. I never played for the heat. Never played for the heat. That's how I got drafted by the Grizzlies. It reminds me of a story.

I was working out for the Grizzlies. And the knock on me, like, I never learned a dribble. That was like, like, I laugh at it out. I played 30 years of basketball, and I never learned a dribble. I could dribble, like, okay, but, like, I was never a good ball handler. Like, I led the league in, like, time zest when I played. And it's okay. I never learned a dribble.

But so that was a knock on me coming out of Duke. That, oh, he never runs pick and roll. He can't handle. He can't be a wing. Like, what is he? And so, again, Chip England, you know, the great chip, got me ready for all my draft forkouts. And so he said, what I want you to do, all right, the first time you're on a pick and roll drill, all right, these coaches are going to be setting screens from you. Okay, I want you

come off that pick as hard as you can, okay? And I want you just lower your shoulder and just knock that coach on his ass. Okay? With his, I don't care if you make a try, just knock him over. Come off, shoulders, knock him on. And so I did that the first time against the Grizzlies. And Scott Roth was sitting picks and I came off. And I just put my shoulder. on him, bang, knocked him over and went down and dunked it. And they're like, God damn, Betty, it comes off that pick and roll hard. That's so funny. That's crazy.

No, no one's paying attention to your handle when they're on their ass. No, exactly. I fooled them. So that was the, again, the psychology of ship England. Funny. Same story, one stock high draft. My stock was pretty low at the time. Get the fuck out of the gym.

Get out of here. All right. So this method can backfire, I guess. It's funny. Just as I was like getting all my notes together and everything today, Shane, I realized that. So Jeremiah's Engelman used to work for ESPN. He's one of the guys who developed real adjusted plus minus, one of the first like advanced plus minus stats. And he wrote a substack this week about who the new no stats all stars, right?

The Shane Battiers of today. But he had a note in his substack about you in which he said that in his adjusted plus minus data, which spans 29 years, Shane Badeer rates higher than 97% of NBA players. Same tier as Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady. Oh, my gosh. So when people... Yeah, I'll send you the link.

But like when people try to get their head around, like, well, what does that mean? No stats all start. Well, I guess I understand not everything shows up in the box score. Shane Badiye had the same impact, according to 29 years of data of real adjusted plus minus data, the same tier as Kobe and Traceau. him and Grady. Like that's, that's what we're trying to get at here, right? It's like, there's so much

more to the game than just putting the ball on the hoop or having apparently any apparent dribble skills. So, well, I'm very proud of it. Look, I was very proud of my career. And again, it wasn't flashy. You know, people didn't buy my jersey. I wasn't on, I wasn't on the highlights. And, you know, Howard, you and I have known each other for many, many years. So you'd always be kind and come come and talk to me. We've been friends for a long time. You know, but again, it was just about, I love to win. And I was willing to do whatever it took to win the game.

And, you know, the things that Rajah and I did, like running back on defense hard every single time. Like, I don't know if you had a coach to teach you that. No one taught me that. I just knew, like, I just want to make these guys play in the half court, not in transition, right? We're like diving for loose ball. It's like, I just want to get a possession for my team, right? Or I want to set a good screen because if I set a good screen, my teammate is going to be open. I know he's a better chance to win, you know, make that shot, right?

And so like all those things have like, like I call it invisible value. There's just no way to sort of capture that in a traditional box score and even the most advanced metrics. But like that invisible value you create, it's not cumulative. it's it's just it just makes your chance of winning explode and um no one never taught me those things and it's nice to be recognized for those things but uh those were just like hey just do what you got to do to win the game and so when i hear a stat like that i'm i'm very proud of that i never would have thought that i knew i was pretty good player but uh that one's going on the fridge yeah you should i had the good fortune early in my career people always say like oh you got so

awesome you got to cover shack and Kobe like yeah it was pretty awesome. I got to cover Shaq and Kobe. But it was like the Rick Foxes and Derek Fisher's Robert Orris, who, you know, in their own way, no stats, all stars, right? Like, these are the guys who did everything else and who I had a lot of conversations with like, you know, because they were so thoughtful about the game. And it wasn't, you know, obviously they're playing their asses off. And there's all these other things they're doing that make them valuable. But they were also the role guys were always the ones who for people like me, reporters and guys, you know, Shane, Roger. Like you were guys. over the course of my career. I knew like, these are the guys are going to give me some really thoughtful analysis or insight into what's really going on with this team or this particular trend. It's not that the stars don't. They just have a lot more demands on them and sometimes don't have time for us. But I had always an appreciation for the guys like you guys, because not just everything on the court, which I, in observing it, I got to get an appreciation for how guys could make such a big impact without the stats behind it. But also, yes, they were,

They were often the guys who were the best quotes, too, which helps my job. So, you know. No doubt. Hey, Shane, I, Howard, I don't know where you want to go with this, but I'm just fully in the back. I have a, I have a fun little detour in a second here. But go. Okay.

I have a, I have a question in regards to analytics because they, they weren't, I mean, they weren't as plentiful clearly when we played, but they were around. Not as easily accessible as they are today either. And, you know, I did not use them much. I watched some video of, like, you know, you had your video breakdown of the guy you were guarding and what not. But were you already hands on, like, towards the tail end of our careers with analytics to devise defensive game plans against the guys that we covered? You were already. And then what did you find?

So then the question would be, you know, what analytics? Because I wasn't. Like, what analytics were you using or did you find most valuable to allow you to have success against the guys that we guarded? Well, it's funny. I could tell you, even without looking at the numbers, I know why you were analytically a great defender. I can tell you. I watch zero film.

Zero. Zero. I never watched film. Anybody. Because I never felt I could get enough sample size to truly understand who Kobe was, who Carmelo was. But if I got a spreadsheet with all of his possessions this year

and in the last three years and all of his career, I knew who he was. And so I knew guys better than they knew themselves without watching a single second of film, right? And that kills Spos is a film guy. And I'm like, I don't really care about watching defensive film. It doesn't matter. And, you know, the way I was taught from Darry and Sam Hinky, he's like, look, there's only three stats that matter as a defender on the basketball court, right? How well a guy finishes, how often he gets fouled, and how well he makes an open jumper.

Okay. Worst case scenario for any defender is to follow a guy. Okay. Because even Shaq is a 50% through throw shooter. Okay. You put him in the line 100 times in a vacuum. He's going to score, you know, he's going to score 100 points. So many gets three, you know, two through throws. Okay. You give you give everybody not named Steph Curry a 15 foot jump shot. All right. They're going to make that 50% of the time. They're going to score 100 points. Right. So the worst, the worst foul shooter in the league, Shaq, is. as good as like a top 10, 15 foot jump shooter in the league. Right. So lesson, don't follow anybody, right? And never overreact if anyone makes those long jumpers. Okay. So my mentality was like, I don't care like if a guy makes a shot over the top of me. Okay.

I can't let him get to the rack, right? So that's why Kobe Carmelo, LeBron, you know, Katie, all these guys are, or Hall of Famers, they finish, you know, at such a high rate. They get fouled at a high rate when they get to the rack. Okay. So I was okay just being passive, make them shoot over the top. And I knew also that there was no one, no one, no one in the history of basketball that was better after the dribble the ball once versus when they shot when they caught the ball.

Okay. So if I can make a guy dribble once, I've already reduced their efficiency 10 to 25%. Yeah. And so, like, it was paying by numbers, literally. that's all I did every single day. And you were a great defender because, you know, you made guys work and guys hit tough shots on you, all right? They may have hit them, but they took low percentage shot, not just like once, like every single

time. And so like the best defenders, they don't stop anybody. They just make them do the hardest thing by the book again and again and again and again and again and keep them away from their best thing. So like that was analytics to me. So it wasn't like some crazy algorithm. them. Yeah, I got into splits. Carmelo was better going to his left hand versus his right hand by 10 points. And like I knew the nuance of that and that that helped. But, you know, don't file guys.

Make them dribble and, you know, keep them out of the pain. And if you can do that, you're going to be an all NBA defender. That's so awesome, though, because we came at it from like just completely like, again, mine was like I felt if I watched you enough and I played against you enough, I felt. So it was. was just completely opposite. But like without even hearing you say that, when people ask me like, what, what do you do? The things that I say all the time is like get him off, one is get him off of his spot. Like wherever he wants to catch it, make him catch it a little bit further from that. And then the other ones are keep him off the free throw line and make him shoot contested shots off the bounce. If you can do that.

And like, so I mean, I just find that it's refreshing. It's fascinating though that we come from two completely opposite ends of it. and you're trying to achieve the same thing just kind of organically you're in your own way. But yes, that's it. That's what I said. I can tell you why you were good. You're not an analytics guy,

but you are an analytics guy. You know, you are. Because that is going to embrace it. That is the right way to play analytically. And so, you know, that's the irony. I love it. All right. So we've had a really nice mutual admiration society here between you two.

That's great. You're a great writer, too. We love you. You're a great media. That was not me. Begging for a podcast to be included in this, but thank you. Father. Just, I mean, you name it.

You name it, Howard. I'd like to think of myself as the no-stats, all-star of journalism. So let me just throw a little divide in here between you two to break up all the nice, happy talk. You guys played head-to-head 22 times in your careers. I looked this up on stat-head on basketball reference. Thank you, Statt-head. You guys have an idea? Which of you won more of those 22 games?

what the ledger is? Well, he swept us in the playoffs one year. I did not include playoffs. I think this is only regular season. That's a good question. That's a good question. The Phoenix team was rolling. You know, the Philly teams, I think I got them a couple of times that year,

but I was always in the Western Conference, so those numbers don't add up. Some not good jazz teams, too, though. Shane, I'd go with Shane. Yeah. It's close. Shane wins the head-to-head 13 to 9. Yeah, it's close.

And then I went just to be obnoxious. I just decided to keep going. So points per game. Who do you think won? Raja. No way. Shame, but not by much. Ten and a half points to 8.8.

And this is only head to head to heads, right? So it's pretty much, I have to say. I'll just cut to the chase. I'm sorry, Roger. You're my guy. You're my pod partner here, everything. You're a real one. Shane swept this thing.

Yeah, I mean, well, he, like, fucking Coach K knows what he's doing. I played at FIU. What you want me to do, bro? He did sweep us in the playoffs. Okay. So, you know, so 4-0, you know, the microphone for Tel-led Memphis Grizzlies took it on the chin that year. This is actually warped by the fact that Shane averaged 34.5 minutes a game to Rajas' 28.6.

So really, it's your coaches, Raja. You should like, you know, go back and. I always felt held back, man. I knew there was more there. But yeah, Shane won assists per game, rebounds per game, steals, blocks. pretty much all of it. But he had six more minutes per game to do it in fairness. And I didn't adjust for minutes per game because I don't want to do math.

The points might have been effective, but my rebounds assist and all of that stuff. The six minutes wasn't doing much for any of that. Was it, do you guys remember? I don't know how much you would have, you know, guarded each other or, I don't know, threw a hard screen into each other. Anything, anything, any recollections of any head-to-head moments over the years?

No, I would not have been at Raja. And Roger would have not have been on me. I didn't think so, but that would have been a waste of our talents. You just said 10 and 8. That would have, that, you know, yeah. That would have been a waste of everybody's time. All right. And, and honestly, like, it would have been, right?

Like, you did say 10 and 8, right? You said 10 and 8. Yeah, dude. And look, there were, like, I know most people paint me as just this antagonist and, like, I'm out there. But there were dudes that, that, that. you know, my, my job usually conflicted with your best player or score in that capacity, because that was my job, right, to, like, get him off his spot. But like, like, Shane and I, while different, like, kindred spirits in our job, like, well, there's no reason for us to be

beefing. Like, you go beef with Steve Nash or Mari or, or is, or Sean Marion, like, to quarterbacks, you know, no problem with other quarterback, you know. We're doing our job. It'd be interesting, Rajah, like, you know, we played in a very, very, different defensive era where there were schemes and there were you know you stay with your man you're fighting through picks and it was much more effort based than i would say today's game um it'd be super interesting to play in this game where everyone just switches and flattens everything out and it devolves into one-on-one basketball at the end of the shot clock you know curious if you've ever think about like your role and how your your art of your career had been different if you had played in the

switching era that we have today yeah it's a great it's a great question and i have thought about it. I didn't love Shane personally being in like just wide open space as a defender, like for too long. And so that does scare me a little bit. You know, but I think what would help me because I was trying to achieve what you were trying to achieve, which was like a good contest on a pull up. Like so many guys want to do that now that like I think it wouldn't have been as scary because you don't have as many dudes that just want to get downhill on you in that way. You know, those would be that. But I thought about it a little bit. bit be interesting. Yeah.

Because so much of it was, you know, you, so much of it was like getting in a head, taking a charge, tight spaces, the little, you know, the little grabs, like the things that we could do in a way to maybe, you know, antagonize this, this dude into like just trying to run you over twice and now he's in foul trouble. Like, you know, that kind of is out of it. It's stripped a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. I mean, as defenders, we're always trying to shrink the floor. And as offensive players, they're trying to create more space and allow the best players to go one-on-one. So I always think about that. It's always an interesting thing, how you keep compact defense in this modern game with so many shooters all over the

place. You know? Shane, this has been awesome, man. I know you've got to get to some other commitments in a couple minutes here. But real quick again, folks, he is one-third of the glue guys podcast with Alex Smith and Robi Gupta. 11 episodes up so far. 11 up. Many more to go. Weekly. Weekly. Good stuff. MBA stuff, NFL stuff, business stuff, life stuff. It seems like it's pretty much just wherever the conversation takes you guys.

It sometimes gets kind of personal into just your own life paths and life lessons. So it's really interesting stuff there. And the cool thing, too, I noticed this when I was listening to or pulling it up on. on Spotify on my phone. We are, of course, all about Spotify here. You guys have the video element, too. So for people who like to watch it, you don't have to go to YouTube or anything, you can watch the podcast within Spotify. So that's pretty cool. It's a great podcast and a lot of nuggets of wisdom. And I promise you, you tune in. You'll learn something. So I appreciate you guys giving us some love. No, absolutely. Thanks for spending some time with us, Shane. We could probably do this

for another three hours easily. But you've got to get going. And we appreciate it. the time. Thanks. All right. Thanks guys. And you, Shane. Thanks, bro.