The Ringer NBA Show - A Knockdown, Drag-Out MVP Conversation, Plus All-NBA Picks | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos debate who the MVP should be, and then they discuss their All-NBA team selections (32:31). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani, and I wanted to let you know that each and every week, I'm part of a great program called The Ringer MMA Show. I hosted alongside two absolutely brilliant minds. Their names, Chuck Mindenhall and Pizzie Carroll, and every Thursday, a new episode drops where we preview the weekend in mixed martial arts and react to all the biggest news. Plus, after every UFC pay-per-view, we give you a post-fight show. So this is what you have to do. Just follow the Ringer M-M-M-A show on your Spotify app.

So you don't miss an episode. We'll talk to you then. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Proud alumnus. Currently probably still paying a FAFSA loan for the 2023 National Champion Yukon Huskies.

Joining me as always, a bunch of losers who didn't even make the final four. Rob Mahoney, Bigwaz. Who wants to kick us off with a couple bars of a one shining moment here? One shining moment. reads for the stars. There you go.

No, I do love, the ball is tipped. The ball is tipped. There you are. You running for your life. Are those the lyrics? I don't even know. They sure are. Incredible.

Yeah, Rob, you probably never heard that one before, right? I think I've literally heard the song twice. So, yeah, I can't do it off the dome. But hey, you give me that lyric sheet. You give me a week to, you know, to get in the studio to really work on the harmonies for it, then I think Waz and I can nail it. Okay. Well, speaking of excellence, we are going to go through our picks on this episode for All-MBA, but first, we are going to have the knockdown, drag-out fight for MVP.

This is a long-weighted conversation. I feel like these days people keep talking about it as a toxic conversation. Like, that's all I hear about it. I hear groans as soon as someone brings up the MVP. But I got to say, I know there were. were parts of the discourse that got pretty ugly a couple of weeks ago. But I feel like more than anything, it's just a tough conversation, which feels unique in MVP history. I mean, the Russell Westbrook one is probably the closest proximity. Even that one felt like there were like camps to it, whereas this one, it feels like everyone is understanding that there are three pretty dominant players and who you pick is more based on

preference and certain arguments for. Does that feel right, Rob? It feels right. but do you guys feel like you're in a camp? I feel incredibly torn on this. I find myself trying to make cases for all three guys because of the seasons that they're having and kind of reluctantly settling on somebody

more than like I'm really galvanized to make the MVP case for a particular guy. I think that's where some of the groaning you're talking about comes from Justin. It's like there is a reluctance to even look at two of these three headlining players and say, you were not good enough this year. This is this performance.

this all-time stat line you're putting up, this crazy, like, put your team on your shoulders, lift that you're doing, isn't good enough. I wish we didn't have to do that. And that's why we kind of reluctantly end up at this place where I'm like, sigh, my pick is X. Yeah, I'm thoroughly in the rob camp, if I'm in any camp, honestly, in his assessment

because although I don't feel like I'm, you know, riding a certain horse, so I feel super tethered to any one person's candidacy, I absolutely do feel browbeat to death. I'll tell you that much. This conversation has become so freaking exhausting and polarizing. And then, you know, because everything,

we have to bring the culture war into everything, whether it's MVP debates or women college basketball championships or whatever the case may be. But I think there's three super deserving candidates. and I feel like there's nobody who, if somebody made a case for them, you'd be like, that's absolutely ridiculous. And the way that I think, you know, years later, over five years later, we can agree that

the Russ candidacy was a bit ridiculous. Listen, I voted for him, man. Wow. I kind of stand by that pick as well. No, but I guess what I'm saying is it is a tough one because in the Rust situation, I feel like you could still separate it by. oh, the analytics people like this guy. And so they're going to get behind a hardened or more of the traditional voters still felt

like Russ was the guy. Whereas this one, I feel you can make a pretty objective or subjective and a nerdy or as like just common man argument for any of these guys, which is why it's so tough. Like you really can't just like go based on religion. It really is. You really just have to come to some sort of agreement with yourself, I guess, about what matters more in this race. What matters more?

Do you know because I've been pouring over this stuff, and honestly, I could not tell you what matters more. Who wants to go first? I will go first. I ended up with Nicola Yogic in kind of a roundabout way. In kind of a roundabout way. I have had stages of this season where I was leaning Janus.

I've had stages of the season where I was really talking myself into Joelle and Bede, and he was talking me into it with his play and his dominance. there's a couple things I can't get over as far as why Yokic should be the guy and one of them is the way he elevates everyone around him and really like there's different ways to do that right

like you can make the Embed argument that part of elevating your teammates is taking enough off of their shoulders that they only have to focus on what they do best and Embed does that in spades he turns PJ Tucker into a guy who can hit dagger threes and be a meaningful offensive player that is intensely valuable

but the way Yokic elevates everyone around him, the way he empowers them to do things they wouldn't otherwise be able to do, I think is massively important. I think it turns that, it turns a skill into a system. He himself is an elite level shot creator, and he turns everyone around him into a shot generating and bucket getting machine. As someone who wants to take defense seriously, and I do, like, it matters a tremendous amount to me, I fully acknowledge that Nicole Yokic is not nearly as good defensively as these two guys, but I keep coming back to one number, which is, especially,

I narrowed down to really Embed in Yokic as the final two for me. The Sixers with Embed on the floor are less than half a point better defensively than the nuggets with Yokic on the floor. And like I've seen the clips. I've seen the footage. I know Yokic isn't as good as a defender. I know that that stat is like a starting point, right? Like then you go into the numbers.

Then you go into the tape. Then you're saying like, is it Aaron Gordon that's lifting up Yokuch's defensive play? Is it the chemistry of this team that's all piecing together to make this team competent defensively when he's on the floor, I just don't have a sufficient answer for why we should penalize a team that has been slightly worse defensively in a race of this caliber and of this magnitude. When Yolkic offensively, I think is notably better than Embed.

I think he does do more on a team level than Embedde does. And that's how I got there. So I have Yokish third. Third. Yeah. Well, it's not so much that, but Rob kind of made one of the arguments for me, which is just the defense event. And like, I have to say some of the stats you're referring to also have the bucks as a worst defense when Janus is on the floor than when

he is off it. So it's like a lot of that sort of data to me is so noisy that I just kind of discount it or discredit at the very least for the most part. And I have to say like just based on raw efficiency. The nuggets are a middle tier defense, and I don't think they are necessarily that much better with Yokic on the floor. And so I almost look at it as like, if you were to have the NBA jam bars, for instance, right? And you have like offense defense. Yokic is the best offensive player in the NBA. I feel like we could all agree on that. He's like a 10 on that. But defensively, he's probably like, what? A six? Whereas you're dealing with these other guys who are probably a nine or 10 in both aspects.

And so it's hard for me when it comes down to splitting hairs to be like, oh, yeah, let's just give it to the guy who is excellent on one in the court and probably average, let's say, on another. Not in like that, we could also get into like how bad the nuggets have been in late, but that's the primary concern I have with Yokic. I get it. And like, again, no one could credibly make the argument that he's as good a defender as these two guys.

As far as the like on court, off court data, I'm not even talking. talking about comparing those two things. I don't even really care how the Nuggets perform when Yokic is off the floor or the sixers than B. Like, I'm only looking at the minutes when they play. What do they have control over? What do they have influence over? Those numbers are noisy. They are dependent on the other four players on the floor. But I'm looking at those other players. And Aaron Gordon is a very good defender. Contavius Caldwell Pope is a pretty good defender. other than that, I'm not really seeing a lot of structure here

that would explain why these two teams are basically at the same level defensively when their stars are on the floor together and those two stars in particular, Embed and Yokic. Versus with the Sixers, yeah, Embed is doing a lot of heavy lifting with Hardin and Maxi in particular.

Those are not guys who are guarding their positions terribly well. He has to cover for them and does. But why are the Sixers not meaningfully better defensively when those guys are on the floor? I keep coming back to that in addition to across the board, the efficiency, the numbers, the performance. Like, just watch the way these Nuggets supporting players play off of Yokic and what he creates for them. He, like, allows you to put some of those guys on the floor.

He makes everyone around him more valuable. That has to matter. Wise, where are you on Yokic? Yeah, I think I agree with every single thing that Rob has said. And I think with the numbers, when you talk about. about the defensive efficiency of Denver with Yokech on the floor versus Phillies with Embedes on the floor. Reflect the truth. Joel Embed is a better defensive player than Nicola Yokic. Everybody knows that. But he's not always playing to his best on defense. And I understand that

over the course of a regular season, especially when he's shouldering the burden that he is for Philly offensively where I think he's making Hardin's life so much easier because Hardy can't break anybody down one-on-one anymore. I think Joel just doesn't demonstrate his potential for defensive dominance on a night-to-night basis in a way that his rep would suggest. Part of the reason why I agree with Rob about the on-off stuff is like if Mike Malone's going to use these stupid ass hockey lineups. I don't know why I should take this on-off lineup data all that seriously when he's playing horrible lineups on purpose.

I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that when that's the obvious reality. And so it's for that reason that I think I'm picking Janice as the MVP because I think he's more consistently excellent on defense than all of these guys. obviously he's like half a notch below both of these guys offensively, but he's a dominant offensive player. And his team over the last, over the course of the season, he's had the most dominant team, regular season team. And I don't think that can be argued.

And, you know, most of all, man, you know, if we're going to, if these MB people are going to be like, oh, we got to do tradition and then blah, blah, blah, and that, you know, blah, blah, you know what? Janice has the best traditional case, and I think he has a great statistical profile, right? Like, he's led his team to the best record in the East. And again, Chris Middleton is a max contract player who has missed a significant chunk of the season, and even when he came back, he was a shell of himself. And still, this team is number one in the entire NBA as far as record is concerned.

And you can't say that Janus isn't bringing it. effort-wise on a night-to-night basis. Nobody's touching them on that category. And so, you know, if Vary is going to say that Yokic is a six, possibly defensively, I would say Yonis is a nine on both. You know what I mean? And so to me, I'll give him the MVP just for the dominance that the bucks have shown down the stretch. So here's where I knitted out.

Over I would say the past month, I would say it's never become more clear to me that Janus is the best player in the NBA. Subjectively, and I think taking away just like this season, I think he is the best player in the world right now. And I think that's borne out, not only by earlier

in the season, basically diverting more of his attention on offense because they didn't have Chris Middleton and booing what is, and otherwise pretty lacking offensive of just supporting cast. I mean, Drew Holiday has been playing better, but he's been iffy at time. But since Middleton,

has been back to that point, the bucks have scored 130 plus in 14 games over the past 35 games. Just to show you, like, with the full compliment, he could be absolutely dominant and just like the game against the Sixers the other night where he completely blew them out of the water within minutes and that game was over very quickly, I think speaks to that. Unfortunately, I just think it takes a little bit more of guesstimation and just projection to say that Yonan,

has put in the best body of work. I think I empirically, I think Embed's case is better. One, he's scoring more. He's the highest score in the NBA. I know we're splitting hairs here because it's basically like two points, but like that's basically what we're doing here is splitting hairs. And also, like, if you're going to build a case for Yokic around his offensive impact, then I also want to understand why the Sixers have a better offense.

And I do think that has to matter. And so, like, overall, and even if you're going to say, like, oh, the bucks are the better team. Yeah, record-wise, they are the better team. Net rating-wise, the Sixers are the better team. And so, like, I'm finding it harder and harder to go against and be because all of, like, the, just the data points to him having the best season, not necessarily being the best player. That's where I did not. Okay. As far as the offense part, it's a totally valid point as far as the Sixers and the Nuggets relative to one another.

But that's only true from a zoomed out team context. And a lot of it has to do with what Waz zeroed in on, which is the lineups that Nuggets throw out there when Yokic is not on the floor. Well, see, I'm not going to give Yokch credit for having a shitty bench, you know? I'm not, no, no, I'm not giving him credit. Again, like the on-off differential does not matter to me.

Uh-huh. When Yokic is on the floor, 126 points per 100 possessions. When Embedd is on the floor, 121 points per 100 possessions. That's a significant margin. I'm not saying Embed is a bad offensive player I'm not saying he's not doing a ton to shoulder

He is doing an incredible amount of heavy lifting there Both in creating his own baskets and in it like allowing certain Like player types to fit in around him because he can score over triple teams It's just like the swing that the Yokic gives you offensively And what ultimately met's out is like I'm kind of an agreement with Waz as far as Embedee's regular season defense. He is a significantly better defender than Yokic.

Is he every night? I wouldn't say that's necessarily always the case. So we're getting into what the practical advantages are, right? Like, Embedd is a better defender. In practical terms, that nets out as like a half point advantage for 100 possessions when those guys are on the floor. That's just, that is just the case. That's what the data suggests, Justin. It's just the case.

And we've seen Embed play a level of defense throughout his career that Yokic couldn't even in his wildest. He couldn't even dream of playing that level. Of course, when when Embed is playing his best, people are absolutely deathly afraid to even go anywhere near the basket. Like, I understand that. But he's not always doing that throughout the course of a season. Sure. But like, I don't know, man. That's one.

I respect the data. I respect math. But like, that's one case where like, come on. Let's get that on the record. Justin respects math. Good to know. No, listen. Get that t-shirt printed, please. I respect the data. I respect math.

I think Yokic is the better offensive player. Like I completely see that. And to that point, I have a stat for you. So- Hold on, Justin, just so we're clear here, just so we can be all the way clear here. It's not just that he's the better offensive player. Yokic is one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

Would you like a stat? Like, of all time. So, Yokic has a 66.1 effective field goal percentage, which is outrageous. He's at 63, 39, 82. So he's almost at a 60, 40, 80 season. It's unbelievable. The highest, a player with 66 effective field goal percentage on 15 plus field goal attempts. Do you know how many players have done it? Will, Will Chamberlain. It's just Yokic. It's just Yokic. Do you know how many players? players have done it with with 12 field goal attempts or more. It's Yokic and Wolt. He is having one of the most efficient offensive seasons of all time. The problem is when you factor everything else,

Limbide is the more complete player. He's clearly a better defensive player, even when he's giving half speed. And overall, the Sixers are a better team than the Nuggets. It's not about like just one end of the court. When you factor in everything, it's just like, I don't know why people get such tunnel vision about Yolkish offensively. Overall, you're saying they have the profile this regular season of a better team. The Sixers? The Sixers, yeah, yeah. Everything empirically suggests that they are a better team.

And if you watch the Nuckets lately, I think that would bear out, you know? I mean, how big do you think that difference is? I'm not disagreeing with your premise that the Sixers might be a better team, but do you think it's a significant enough margin that it matters? because they have basically the same record at this moment in time. It's not the difference between like the Sixers and the Houston Rockets,

a team, by the way, that the Nuggets just wet farted their way through a game last night to. Yeah, they really did. It's the difference between like, you know, being the third best team in the NBA and being like the sixth best team. And again, we are splitting hairs here

and I do think that makes a difference. See, to me, like, if you want to make the Milwaukee case for team dominance, I'm sympathetic to it because they are so much better by record. Even like point differential work, talking about like kind of similar margins between Milwaukee and Philly versus Philly versus Denver. I get the case.

I also look, I also want to point out, Justin, the exact stat you decided for Yokic. I brought up like five pods ago. And you tried to laugh me off of the podcast based on his number of shot attempts. So I just, I just want to get that.

Maybe typical. Let's get the test. Typical mental management fashion, Rob. He's taking credit for your hard work. That's just what they do. I mean, he's a very efficient offensive player. What can I say? But this is why it gets hard.

Like these teams, I think, are comparably good. These players are comparably good, no matter what the stands of the world will tell you. We are splitting hairs. Like, ultimately, that's what we're getting down to. And that's why I keep coming back to things like the defensive performance. why we're going to like you could zero in on imbees dominance with 30 and 40 point games something that basically no one else in this conversation can touch you can find like those pillars for

every candidate and you can find you can zero in on janus's night to night level of intensity and performance his team record i don't think that there is an open and shut case here no matter what doc rivers will tell you about imbids like recent play in a signature game over the celtics like you can have one of these huge games they've all had those games they've all had those stretches. They've all had stretches of the season where their teams didn't look great, to be totally honest. And if we want to focus on the playoff push that, like, Embed has had at the end of the season, or the lulls that Yokic had a couple weeks ago, or even like the incredible streak that the Bucks went on, we have to acknowledge the inverse of those things,

too, which is these are three imperfect teams led by three absolutely dominant players who are trying to prop up a lot. And some nights that's going to look good. And some nights, you're going to lose to the Houston fucking rockets, you know? And turn it over any time. I want to ask you you guys something that's related to because I feel like the NBA MVP voting and just like the culture around it is

unique in this way. How much do you think it should factor in that two of the other two guys have already won twice and one of the guys desperately wants to win like really badly wants to win this finally?

I think it's a great question because how much of this is going to come down to Embed just wants this more toward the end to the point where like he was going all out against a Celtic team without Robert Williams, without Jalen Brown that was kind of sleepwalking through most of that game. And the Sixers almost lost it at the end. But Embed has just been trying so goddamn hard where it feels like Yokic almost doesn't want to.

He's almost throwing it away. And like I don't want to give him credit for that almost like he's too good for it or whatnot. But like, I do feel like this is coming down to the stretch here. And it is bad that the last like appearance you have, like if you're in an election raise and the last vision someone has of you is like getting into a scandal, Yokic is kind of fumbling it at the goal line here by just basically like the nuggets. Can we take the nuggets as a serious title contender as of right now? I would say no.

I think they're like definitely in the mix. I would strongly disagree. over the years I've seen the nuggets they go through these periods where they just sort of disinterested and I think this is one of those periods they feel like they have a firm grip on the number one overall seed in their conference. They're two games up and the grizzlies. They might lose the number one seed. If they lose the number one seed, which is unlikely, let's just be clear, like I think that's a travesty.

Like they've looked like shit. So if we can, hold on, Justin. If we can acknowledge that it's highly unlikely that they'll lose the number one seed, then how does that not factor in their, you know, sort of lethargy? Like, that makes sense to me as a human being. They play in a worse conference. Works and lives in the world? A less top-heavy conference.

And so thus they're benefiting from having the same record as the Sixers right now. But that's solid. Just dividing based on geography. It's not actually anything to do with the numbers. They're benefiting from having already done the work. Okay. If they play in a less top-heavy conference, that seems like a reason you might want to consider them a serious contender.

Oh, well, who would their opposition be if it's not a top-heavy conference? Just because they make it to the final doesn't mean that they would be better, for instance, than like the Celtics, if the Celtics didn't make it to the finals. If you make it to the NBA finals, you are a championship contender. I mean, that's it. I'm saying like, that's it. You are in it. Sure, yeah.

I said they're in the mix, but as someone that I think that, could win the title. I think it's the three teams in these. I don't think the Nuggets can. So you don't think Denver could win the title if they made it to the finals? I'm saying they are in the mix for the title. This is basically a semantics argument. I'm saying almost the exact same thing.

It is. Here's the ultimate point. If I can go like full Tommy Lee Jones and the fugitive, I don't care what happens in the playoffs. I really don't. I don't care who is the title contender who is not. I don't care what you think is going to happen to Yokic's defense in the second round. I care about what happened in the regular season. That is a splitting

hairs decision in itself. You watch the nuggets lately, bro? What? The nuggets haven't been like good. Like sixers, bucks level good in what? Like a month or two? It's been bad. You've said that yourself. This is absurd. Justin just hates the nuggets and it's just so obvious. And like when these teams have played each other, it hasn't been this wide gap. of, oh, this team is so obviously more dominant. It's just not. With none of those teams in the East. What are we talking about?

The Celtics have not looked way better than the Nuggets when they played him. Neither have the Bucks, neither have the Sixers. I mean, I think your argument entirely hinges on way better. I'm not saying way better. I'm saying, like, over the course of the season, the Nuggets have been there in the mix. But I would say, especially lately, in which the nuggets have looked, like outright garb,

like outright garbage in a way that I don't think the Sixers even have, and definitely not the Bucks. The Celtics, certainly, Celtics have been very shaky over the past couple months. I'm just going to exit this conversation with this. Good luck with James Hardin in the playoffs, brother. I don't know. I mean, I feel like I always have to be in the position of arguing against the Nuggets more than I actually believe in.

But I think when we're splitting hairs yet again, like I do think, like there is a difference and it's been noticeable of late. And like, I don't think you could write this off as just like, oh, they're taking it easy, yada, a ada. There have been some serious problems where we're like, we've hit the panic button in a way that we haven't about the Sixers. Like, let's just stop and say that for this, for one second.

Like, we haven't hit a panic button about the team that we literally have just been slamming down on the panic button for like seven years. Like, that has to count for something. It definitely counts for a lot, to be honest. And like, that's the thing about Embeddead. And honestly, what makes his case so compelling to me, is he, Joel Embedith is two things. He is the toughest individual matchup in the NBA this season, bar none.

And he's the biggest pressure release in the NBA for his teammates in terms of when you need a bailout option at the end of the clock, when you have a possession that's going nowhere, when you need to throw out a garbage lineup just to eat some minutes and you can put Embed out there with them, he can help those guys get to competency. And his ability to do that stuff night to night is what prevents us from trying to hit the panic button with the Sixers. It's incredible. Like, he's had an amazing season. I just don't think we can sit here and pretend that, like,

the Nuggets are a disaster win. Prior to losing to the Rockets, they won five of six, and they just smacked the bucks. I just picked randomly a date as February 1st. Since then, the Nuggets are 13th in that rating. They're about what the Pelicans and the Warriors are. And I would say that's fair. Like, over the course of the season,

they have been one of the best teams since February. They have been pretty mediocre, to the point of concern. I'm actually, like, stunned that you guys are arguing this. It almost seems like you're overcompensating just to make the nuggets argue. I'm not overcompensating. The freaking regular season is 82 games. The idea that a team that's put themselves in a position to lead their conference

and guarantee home court for themselves have had moments of laws, like, I see this all the time in teams. Just look at the sell. They came out like gangbusters to start the season. And over the course of the season, they didn't play like that. It's because they're like, yo, the season is really long. We're not going to maintain this level of concentration and effort level and execution over the course of it. I'm not going to completely dock them for this when I've watched them at points of this season look like one of the best teams in the NBA.

I can say the same thing for the nuggets throughout significant. chunks of the season, they've looked like one of the handful of teams that can win the NBA championship. That's just where I stand. So when you're like since February 1st, they're just the pelicans, well, okay, sure, but the pelicans don't

have the track record over the course of this season. Don't throw out your back, man, straining for the nuggets here. Like, I think we're going a little far now. Yeah. We are far afield. My argument would just be

These teams are not, for me, these teams are not meaningfully far apart where I'm giving like a huge edge to either Joel or to Nicola. Janus to me is the guy who gets the team bump for success. And the other two guys are more or less in the same place. So do you have Janus second on a ballot or or is it Joel? I have Joel second, Janus third. Okay. And what makes the difference there for you? I think it is, to me, this is not Janus's best officer.

offensive season. And some of that is, as you mentioned, like, he has had to do more in tougher situations with some of the injuries that they've had. I don't want to hold that too much against him. But just in terms of singular dominance, I think you see it more offensively from Embed night to night than you do Janice. Janus has gotten Steinmeed by some matchups. He has gotten held up by some of the walls just because of their team situation. He just hasn't been as, like, overwhelming on a night to night basis as Embedde has. And that matters to me. Like, the stability that we're talking about the Sixers matters to me,

that stability comes from Embed in his capacity to do those things. So I ended up giving Embed the edge. Again, I don't feel great about that either. This really is kind of a roulette shuffle, a slot machine, pull, whatever metaphor you would like to go to. But these guys are hard to parse.

And I go and bead slightly over Janus at this point. Yep. And, was, you have Yokic too? I got Yokch number two, and bead number three. And, you know, basically I just wanted to shut down the black people who can't win MVP debate. Well, there you have it. Do we want to talk about four and five?

I can't think of a wider gap. This is literally like the Grand Canyon gap of between this ballot. I don't even like Tatum. I guess Tatum is Tatea by default for four. Tatum's going to be in there, yeah. Yeah, Tatum, I guess, Steph, maybe. I have SGA. Luca.

Not even, not Luca, maybe, uh, eh, Shay, you want to throw in at five? I don't care. None of these guys have even, they haven't even come close to touching the top three. Like they're not within arm's reach of the top three. Anybody else, nobody. It feels like Shay or Luca to me, which I think it's probably a good segue to get into all NBA, because those guys are going to be interesting to place on that ballot as well. Okay.

Why don't we take a break there? then. Are you guys feeling toxic right now? Kind of. Do you feel okay about what just happened? I felt like it was a spirited debate, which is, I don't think is a bad thing. People hate arguing over things like in good faith. I think this is fine. I'm right, but, you know, that's another story. All right, let's take a break. Yeah, not toxic. All right. Where do we want to start here? Should we start with the guards? I feel like they're a little bit more of a conversation, at least in the first team in all NBA,

than the front court. Front court, you guys have Tatum and Janus, I assume at forwards. Yep. So this is, yes, Tatum and Janus at forwards. And I just have a lot of trouble with this positional stuff

with stuff like Luca's a guard, allegedly, but he's always guarding threes and fours. He's as big as a center now. How is she, how come Shakespeare? can't be a forward. Like, this stuff just hurts

my head, to be honest. So you're pro, the positionalist, like, uh, advancement. Oh, please. Yeah. Good news was. You won't have to worry about this ever again. Yes. It's, it's so makes so much more sense to do it that way. Um, then especially when positions are so, there's so much more fluid now than they used to be. right um and so yeah i i am for having the 15 best performers make all mb a you know what i mean yeah how you structure your teams i mean he's kind of a point card but how you structure your

teams is ultimately like dependent on your willingness to commit positional fraud where eligible you know like justin you and i were talking about this demontas subonis is technically eligible at forward has not played forward this season so you could put him wherever you want on any of his eligible at forward he's he's absolutely has no shot of making my team interesting

if we're calling him a forward he's not a forward he can't he can't make this team I wanted to stick him at like second team forward just considering how dicey forward the forward is but I didn't I stuck to where a player has played like I didn't give anyone an edge and I actually

I agree with you guys I think the positionalist thing is interesting and in a good evolution of what we're doing but I do kind of like making the hard decision. Like we talked about this in the past where it's like, yeah, Will or Russell had to be second team because they played alongside each other. Yokic and Embed, someone's going to have to be second team.

And I don't know, like the MVP just ballots show that Embed was like probably a top three player the past couple of years. But like when it came down to it, Yokch was better and he deserves the first spot. I don't think there's anything bad about making tough choices. No, I don't think so either. But there are some easy choices on this first team.

As you mentioned, Janice and Tatum at Forward feels pretty easy. Your center of choice feels like the easy spot for center. You guys have Yolkich? Yeah, I have Yokic. Can we get the odds that one voter this season will do like Yokic MVP, but Embed first team center as like a political statement as saying like this was so close to call.

I'm going to I'm going to split my ballot. Can we get odds on that? Who's that going to be? Is it Pina? It might be me at this point. Is it Pina? hilarious. I had Embed, obviously, as first team center, but we have, so what do we do with guards? So I have Luca kind of reluctantly, considering just how flat the Mavs have been, but good

Lord, the statistics are incredible, 33 point triple double, basically averaging. Like, it's very hard to make a case against him. And I have Shay, as we said before, like a MVP candidate kind of with the bullet. And I was debating between Shea and then we can get into the games played thing with Steph and some of these other guys, but also Donovan Mitchell. And the thing that really swung it for me with Shea is that over his 67 games played, he's only had three games this season where he scored under 20 points, which is like elite level consistency that you don't get with some of these other guys. Steph even has five such games of under 20. Mitchell has 15. And we always say what's the difference between an elite superstar and just a star is the consistency

and Shay has that this year. So I gave him the nod here. Well, especially for a guy in Shea who I think there's this impression that because of the young team he's on, he must be like super ball dominant because of the scoring totals he puts up. He must be controlling the offense, not unlike a guy like Luca does. That's not really the way the thunder operate. You know, Josh Giddy has the ball in his hands a lot. Jalen Williams has the ball in his hands a lot. They really spread it around and he's playing off the ball a considerable amount. So the fact that he's that stable as a score in that kind of role, I think is

tremendously meaningful. Yeah, to me, Steph, Lucas, Shea, and Dame have been the four best players eligible for guard or whatever, like the four best guards, if we're doing this positional fakery. However, to me, Steph Curry has been just a cut-up-up... Like, he's just a cut above player when I watch him play.

His influence on the game is just insane. And maybe some of this is spillage from watching him dominate the best defensive team in the NBA and the NBA finals last year. And just some of his moments this season, throughout the course of the regular season, where I'm just like, this guy is still playing at all time great levels. I'm talking about the greatest that have ever touched the basketball levels at certain points this year

where I can't say that for other people. So yeah, to me, Steph is on my first team and then I'm doing Luca. But, you know, the difference between Lucas Shea and game as far as excellence this year is razor thin. Let's talk about the Steph part because I think it's really an avenue into trying to parse this minute situation

and this games played situation. I can't remember a ballot that was this dicey in terms of games played and maybe that speaks to the combination of like injury and injury prevention that's happening in the league right now.

But basically every qualified candidate barring like a handful played somewhere between like 50 and 64 games this season. Steph is maybe the hardest call. I think there's going to be a lot of voters who do not put him on their ballot at all. Again, Steph to date,

53 games played 1,849 minutes. That's not a lot. You know, like a thousand minutes less than some of the top guys in minutes played so far who are going to be like in this race. I honestly don't have a good feel of what to do with them because, why is you're right? Like by skill, by performance,

Steph is a first team guy. I think he deserves a place on one of these teams. Your mileage is going to vary pretty significantly based on how you feel about the games played question. Yeah, so Steph third most efficient shooting season of his career. He's basically 50, 40, 90 yet again. But as Rob Ludes to, he's probably going to miss about a third of the season, which is significant. And my issue was, how do I not put Steph on here?

Because he's been so awesome. He's basically been booing this Warriors team to wherever they are in the standings. The problem is if I let him in, then what do I have to do about the other guys to come? I do about LeBron? What do I do about Lillard? What do I do about now marketing who's also getting a lot of DNPs like shady Danny Aang style business? Like it's a very slippery slope. I ultimately netted out by docking stuff into the second team. But if he had played a full season, I probably would have put him on the first. Unfortunately, that also meant I had to let in a lot of guys. I probably typically wouldn't, including LeBron. Yeah, that is kind of the class, right? It's

John Morant, LeBron James, Steph Curry, Anthony Davis, Devin Booker. Those are five guys who in some years, by games played or minutes played, might not make ballots. And this year, I think at least a couple of them will for most voters. So, Rob, where did you have, uh, Steph? Did you have him first team or second team? So I ended up with Steph's second team. I had Luca and Shea first team, total body of work, just like the sheer volume of what they've been able to put together I was impressed by. And I'm with you. Like, I think there is a certain cost to the minutes played games played question. I think there are only two players who I kind of ruled out outright in terms of how many games they missed who were realistic candidates to begin with. That was

Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard just didn't play enough. But other than that, it's kind of a sliding scale with the LeBrons, with the ADs, with the stefs. Like, do you have room for them? How do you feel about them relative to the exact candidate you're talking about. And if I'm weighing Steph against what Shea has done this season or what Luca's done this season, I think he just missed too much time, like by missing a third of the season to really be in that class. So I have him headlining my second team. I feel pretty good about that, but I don't think he played quite enough to make first. So who else is on the second team for you? So it's Steph? For me, it's Steph and Dame at the guards, Jimmy Butler and Jalen Brown at forwards. And then again,

your other center of choice. For me, it's Joel on second team. So this is where it got really tough for me. I had Dame on the second team just because, good Lord, the scoring and the efficiency is just absolutely off the chart, like one of the best Dame seasons we ever had. But I was watching

last night's Lakers game as LeBron was gipping his old ass up and down the court in overtime just to get by this ragged ass Utah Jazz team. And I was like, huh, Lori Markinen, not playing in this game. Huh, is that because he's hurt or is it because the jazz do not want to win these games?

And I'm starting to think, like, how much should I really, like, promote someone like Lillard or Markinen who are probably, let's be honest with Lori, like probably healthy enough to give it a go, but aren't because the team are just shutting them and they want to lose. And if your team is that bad that they aren't even in the mix for a play in race, that has to be one of the most competitive in NBA history or just even like playoff races in NBA history. Like I got a doc you at some point. So I put Mitchell on my second team as a result of that.

Donovan Mitchell, who's having just the gangbusters here. I think he has four straight, 40-point games coming into this debate here. Awesome. Yeah. I have Julius Randall as a second team forward. And then I also have LeBron James.

Interesting. So with Randall, 25, 10, and 4, there's only been seven players to reach those benchmarks since 2000. Every single player made at least the second team. I know things change and whatnot. But like, Randall isn't my favorite player. We've been over this before. But at a certain point, man, you are the engine of the fifth seed in the east. You are playing your fucking ass off.

And it's just like I can't ignore the production. I think he deserves a spot here. Let's just override like everything we've taped to this point because it just needs to be one like collective tip of our hat to Julius Randall. He's going to be All-NBA. You know what's funny, man. He wasn't going to make my All-MBA to be honest. And I never seriously considered him.

But that's just my own aversion to Julius Randall as a player. It's just like, we can't take this. stuff seriously. Like, they're going to play the Cavs in the first round. Is any of his stuff going to work? Any of it? Is any of it going to work? Any part of his game, is it any of it going to be effective against a real

playoff team? And so I have a hard time. But, yeah, he's going to slot into my third team. My second team forwards are Jimmy and LeBron because I just think they are just clearly better than a job. Jaron Jackson, a Julius Randall, those kind of guys. Like, they've, you know, those guys have played more, have put more on tape. But however, I'm, there just, there's no reasonable argument to be made that either of those two guys are better than Jimmy and Braun.

So, Jimmy and Braun, because they're clearly better than their competition on my second team, obviously the second team center is in Bede, what, you know, Yolkich, M.B., you guys do it. whatever you want with that. LeBron is a classic case of where my eyes say one thing and then I look at the numbers. I'm like, holy shit, this is incredible. Where it's like, man, this is clearly not even like a top half

LeBron season over the course of his career in terms of efficiency in terms of like how high he could jump off the ground in terms of like how much he's just like jacking from three. Did you see that game winning layup he made yesterday? He was not airborne for it.

Or the one where he missed to send it to overtime to begin with. Good on him for bouncing back in overtime and actually making the shot. But that's where we are with LeBron. He needs like a couple of shots on it in order to get the dagger in there. But man, 29, 8 and 7 basically, it's only over 52 games. But like it's about the same amount as Steph here. So once I let the floodgates open, like you kind of have to. The Lakers are all of a sudden one of the best teams in the Western.

conference so you can't really hold it against him that the team isn't doing well so yeah reluctantly i put him as a second team forward um should we go to the third team yeah let's talk it through okay um i have lillard as i mentioned before i have deer and fox the best scorer in crunch time who i felt like you couldn't leave off of this just considering how good the kings have been and just how good he has been um i have marketing as i mentioned i have jimmy butler who's an absolute badass half having one of the most efficient seasons of his career and quietly might actually play more games than he has since his Chicago days,

which is kind of nuts because all I think about Jimmy is that, like, I never watch him play because you never know when he's actually going to play. And then I have some bonus at Center, who I feel like is inarguable. I think he's center, 13 center with a bullet. Why, does he seem skeptical of that?

Inarguable. I mean, have you watched Anthony Davis play this season? Like, to me, he's, out there sometimes. He's my third team. He's my third team all NBA center. Like, this guy absolutely blows the doors off of demoniacable. Like, this isn't even a question to me.

They're, like, they're not in the same league of player. They're not in the same universe of player. And I love what Sacramento has done. And so that's why my last two guards are Deerran Fox and Donovan Mitchell, Jha and Deerrin Fox were, they battled it out in my mind for the very last guard spot. But somebody from Sacramento, you know, has to be rewarded for that team's success. And I think Deerrin Fox is easily the best player on the team. I don't even see, I don't even think it's arguable, to be honest.

So bonus, you know, we do all of this talking about, oh, defense and this and that. Like with his alligator arms at your center position, it's not happening. It ain't happening, y'all. That dude is not making my All-MBA. He barely snuck in for All-Star. He snuck in? Yeah, yeah, he snuck in for All-Star. Wow.

But, yeah, A.D., Randall, Jaron Jackson, Deerrin Fox, Donovan Mitchell. That's my third team. So you guys do not have Jalen Brown? Jalen Brown, no. No, he was my last cut. Sorry. Love him. Interesting.

But no. I think Sabonis has to be third team center. I mean, I am sympathetic to the AD case. We're talking about 24 games that Sabonis has played more than AD. 77. Like, Sabonis is one of the true guys who has been out there every night. AD empirically not. And I agree AD has had dominant stretches of the season.

He's also quite at least some stretches that were not so great. and they've been overwritten a little bit with time because they happened earlier because we're all focused on how the Lakers look now and he's been so essential to that effort, especially when LeBron's been out, carrying them to the finish line has been so important. I think it's just a tiny bit,

too little too late for his case. I think if he had played even a little bit more, it would have made a big difference. For me, third team is Fox and Mitchell at Guard, Randall and LeBron at forward, Sabonis at center. Honestly, though, the last forward spot, I think is the toughest spot on the ballot.

I don't think LeBron, like I know you guys had him second team. He does not feel like an open and shut case for me this season. Some of it is defense. Some of it is availability. Some of it is the fact that just like the competition here is pretty good. One person I gave a really hard look to and I kind of wanted to pull the trigger on to put in that last forward spot

but couldn't quite get there was Devin Booker, who has played probably less than almost any of these other realistic candidates by games played in minutes. So he's eligible forward. he's eligible at forward and is an actual forward, like a 60-40 guard forward split by minutes. And is way better than Julius Randall. He is an objectively better player than Julius Randall.

But I think Randall has had a better season for a team that has been more consistently good. And I do want to reward that. Booker has a really strong case, though. And all of these other guys, again, whether it's LeBron that you're worried about because of his availability in minutes, whether it's Randall, because of whatever your issues with Julius Randall are, and I think they're perfectly valid many of them. I think Booker should be a guy who gets some looks.

I don't know that he will because people think of him first and foremost as a guard, but he should be a pretty eligible candidate at Forward too. See, I didn't think he would be eligible at Ford. I didn't even consider him at Ford just because I didn't think. Typically, you think of him as a guard. Yeah, I mean, he should be in the mix for that reason. It probably wouldn't change anything because of everything you mentioned there. Jalen was my first guy out at forward,

but the guy I thought you were going to mention was Pascal Seacom. Seacom's got a great case too. He does, especially because the Raptors have really bounced back since the deadline and become a credible team, like just as credible as the heat. And I think some of the numbers are probably just as good as good as. He's in the Julius Randall's sweepstakes for me.

And I just think Randall is a little bit more credible of a case this season anyway than Pascal. Wow. I'm glad you had Jaron Jackson, though, because he's my pick for a defensive player of the year. And it's hard in this exercise for me to say the best defensive player is not on one of these teams. And he's been getting buckets recently. He's upping his bucket getting. He's had some incredible offensive performances and had some incredible ones without Jha. And he's another guy who's just like, when he's on the floor, the Grizzlies are awesome consistently. That matters a lot. With him, it's less a game's played.

question and more a minutes played question. It's like the combination of those two things can be kind of tough for him relative to some of these other candidates. And he got like just edged out for me. And it gets, again, I get to this point. How many playoff games is Jaron Jackson going to play more than 34 minutes in? How many? Like, seriously. It's a, it's a fair question. And as you're getting down to the nuts and bolts of these picks, it's just hard to make the argument. Even everything I acknowledge about Jaron Jackson's defense and intellectually what I know to be true about his game. Like, is he better than LeBron James? I could not sit here with a straight face and tell you that he is.

What did you guys do with John Morant? Like I said, Jod was right there for me for the last guard spot between Deerrin Fox. I just felt like the forwards, it's way less competition. And so I think like Jaron Jackson's case is way more pronounced than Jaws is over Donovan Mitchell, De Aaron Fox, DeVin Booker. I don't think his case is as pronounced as his teammates is. And that's why I was just like, all right, you could hit the cutting roof floor. And, you know, you're flashing Tully's on Instagram, blob. We could dock you one year.

I think the trouble with Jaws case is you get to the point where you're looking at, okay, who should I even consider? Like, who is good enough, who has played enough to really be in this mix? And you get down to Brat's tax with the guards, and it's like, Steph and Jha are separated about like 40 minutes at this point where would you ever pick Jha over Steph

and that's where it's like if you have Steph and we're also going to acknowledge how great Dame has been if like we have to like we have to give some respect to the raw total of work that Luca Donchich has put in over the course this season even with his suspect defense even with you know the constant complaining

to the officials like he just does so much for that team you have to acknowledge Shay it's like as the candidates pile up Jaws the guy who gets edged out. And I wouldn't blame anyone for finding space in their ballot to vote for him. He's an excellent player. But you better have Steph on your ballot, too, if you're going to pick John Morant. And that means you're leaving off probably one or two other very valuable players.

Yeah. Guard is just is thick. I mean, other guys to consider Brunton, who probably, let's be honest, is the better. He's the best. He's the best. He's just unfortunate that he plays a more crowded position. And I also had Drew Holiday, like I said before, probably the best. season of his life.

Offensive numbers are just off the charts. Like silently he has become kind of a dead-eyed shooter for a Bucks team and also one of the best defensive players with a bullet in the NBA. And Justin, you had Markinen on your third team, right? I did. He's an interesting case because it's like, if the Jazz had won a bit more or pushed in a bit more,

I feel like he has a stronger kind of platform to stand on. As I see it now, it's like to make all NBA as a non-playoff team. you have to have an exceptional case. And I think Dame has that, and I think Luca has that. Does Lowry Markinen have that? Basically 50, 40, 90 at the forward spot.

He's been awesome. 26 and 9 and 2. I don't think he does. I don't know. But I'll say this, for Laurie Markinen, I think the Knicks are a way better team with him rather than Julius Randall. Yeah.

100%. Both things can be true, you know? Maybe I'm just like coasting off the, the high of like the the salt lake city just revival tour here but he's to credit for almost the entirety of the jazz's success and so totally yeah and it's it's not like he's so far away from the pack and the play in like they actually have to actively stop themselves from winning and while i'm not going to give him credit for sitting some of these late games i do think he deserves credit for putting them in the mix he definitely deserves credit and fair or unfair

I know I got to the spot where I'm looking at my all-N-B-A ballot, and I'm like, why do I have so many players from the seventh to 13th best teams in the Western Conference on this ballot? It's because they all are? That's every team in the NBA. Because the seventh best team is the same as the 13th, who is the same as the fifth?

Yeah. They kind of all are, but it's like if you're going to, we're putting all these guys on there, and we have, I think, no sons, no grislies other than Wazas has Jaron Jackson Jr. Like, it just gets tough to argue some of this stuff. sometimes.

I did start to feel the attrition piling up of can I put another guy from another Western Conference team that isn't going to even make the playoffs on this list? And maybe that's unfair to marketing, but like that is the reality of looking at this field and trying to square who the 15 best players this season were.

Yep, that's fair. Honestly, with team success, I just don't think individual excellence guarantees you team success in the NBA in the ways that it used to. These teams are just too good, even at the bottom, we're like, even if you are individually kicking ass, it doesn't mean that you

are, like, your team is slotted for 45 wins no matter who's around you. Like, it doesn't work like that anymore. Yep, that's fair. Dame knows that all too well, unfortunately, for most of his career. Damn. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for rejoining us back here in the G-League after flirting with like the higher-minded folks in the narrative. podcast field. We'll be back next week. I believe we're switching to a playoff schedule next week. So we'll be coming to you after the play-in game on Wednesday. So check that out in your feeds. Until then, we'll see you next time.