The Ringer NBA Show - A Lakers Viking Funeral, Plus All-NBA Picks | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by burying the Lakers and recapping their favorite moments from Los Angeles's disappointing season now that they were officially eliminated from playoff contention (1:42). Then they argue and discuss their All-NBA selections (12:50). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My birdie buddies, my eagle enthusiasts. It's Joe House from the Fairway Rowland podcast telling you that Fairway Rowland is going to be in Augusta, Georgia. Oh, yeah, we're going to be down there for a little practice. Some of the actual rounds, we're talking gambling, we're talking golfing, we're talking sandwiches, the over-under for sandwiches between Nathan Hubbard and I. It's about, I'll set it at 20. The podfather himself will be joining us. You can listen to BS podcast.

You can listen to Fairway Rowland. You can listen to Ringer Gambling Show. We are going to be in Augusta. The ringer in Augusta. Please join us. I am Justin Berry. You're joining me, my own personal Doc Rivers and Shelley Sterling. It's Rob Bajoney and Big Waz.

Rob, tag yourself. I will absolutely not. I'm just going to step back from that one. Waz, are you excited for the new rip from the headline series about the Schelling Sterling. saga. Stuff to say. I'm excited for Ramona Shelburne. I'm sure she got a nice check for it. Are you? E.P. Ramona Shelburne. EP. Yeah. So good for her. Yeah. Carrying the water of a slum ward's wife is really big business. It really gets your paid. Anyway, all right, we're going to do

our all NBA picks because we only have, what, a couple of days left in this regular season. And unfortunately, that's all the Los Angeles Lakers have to look forward to for the rest of the way here. They were bounced last night, fittingly by the Phoenix Suns yet again, despite Anthony Davis protestations last year after that playoff series. We've seen this one coming for a long time now. But now that it's finally here, gentlemen, I feel like this is Christmas. You spend a couple of months talking about it and anticipating it. Now that it's finally here, I feel like we have to open our presents, you know. Loz, any feelings?

You know, everybody's describing this as a funeral. I think about that scene in the wire where the cop dies and they bring his body to a bar and everybody's drinking and telling stories. This being the Lakers and it be in Los Angeles, when we have this at like a taqueria

or like, where would we do this for the Lakers of this season? Justin, that's what I'm wondering. Well, guys, the season starts today. by which I mean we never have to talk about this team ever again please please please yeah I just want to just like maybe reflect you know and look back at at the season that was for the Los Angeles Lakers so I've kind of sketched out some of my favorite moments from this Lakers season I want you guys to help me pick out the number one I say if we could play some music

behind this maybe some like Beatles there are places I remember all my life You know? Do you think we have that kind of money? Well, maybe. So here goes. I'm going to start from the top here. First, there was the trade for Russell Westbrook, which no one, if you remember,

really understood at the time. Immediately after, the Lakers sign a bunch of has-bens to fill out their depth chart, which leads to ESPN tweeting, The Lakers' depth is wild with a quote card that features Wayne Ellington, Carmelo, Anthony, Rajan Rondo, Dwight Howard,

Taylorin Horton-Tocker, Mouik Monk, and the caper, Marcus Saul, who didn't end up playing for the team. We could pick the time when Russ patted LeBron and AD on their heads. That's my number one. That's my number one. That's the image of the season. It's Russ being like, guys, it's going to be all right. And LeBron and AD immediately understanding like, what the hell did we just get ourselves into? Okay.

So Waz is putting that in the forefront. I have many more, so I'll just be going here for you. For your sake, Rob. Okay. Anthony Davis, nearly fighting Dwight Howard on the sidelines. Damn, I forgot about that one. I know. I really went deep on this.

I had a lot of fun last night. Anthony Davis misses a month with an knee injury. Russell Westbrook misses jumpers. Russell Westbrook misses entry passes. Russell Westbrook misses defensive assignments. Anthony Davis misses another month with another injury. LeBron's Media Tour, All-Star, break, which we don't have to really get into.

We get a whole episode about that one. The Lakers almost fire Frank Vogel 12 times before realizing it doesn't even matter so they don't even bother firing him. Russ getting mad at fans calling him Westbrick. LeBron's Severance-style Instagram posts where his reality does not match what he's doing on his Instagram. LeBron's Tequila Spancon, which I don't know if you guys have checked this morning, but hashtag Los Lobo.

whatever it is, was in full force already. Carl Anthony Towns openly mocking Russell Westbrook after an airball and a recent game. Magic Johnson's many earnest banal tweets. Kendrick Nunn, who never played a game but was mentioned more than he's ever played in any games in any part of his NBA career. Laker legend, or... Laker legend, or the constant reminders that the Lakers could have traded for Buddy Heald and or sign and trade for DeMarco Rosa. Did I miss anything?

Yeah, I'm going to zag. I'm going to pick the time that Rob Polinka told the team in the film room. You could say this room has the greatest basketball talent assembled on a team in recent history. I'm going to take that one as the highlight of the Lakers season. That's a good one. I like how your rundown is like part. It's like you're listing the nominees for the award, but also doing the in-memorium at the same time. It's kind of an incredible combo.

The only thing you missed, honestly, Justin, is... What I talked about with Sabrina on the weekend show was when the Wizards came to town. And Frank Vogel hugged KCP as if he was his long-lost brother separated at birth. Like, it was like, dude, I miss you so freaking much. It was ridiculous. That hug and embrace that they shared at a half-court. It said everything you needed to. to know about this season.

The way Frank Vogel missed Cantavius Caldwell Pope, fam. That's the love you show to the one who got out. It's like, I'm still in this, but you get to live. They wanted to remember the Halcyon days of when they just lost in the first round

in the playoffs as opposed to not making it at all. But let's actually talk about Frank Vogel very quickly here because now that hot seat is just like engulfed in flames. Rob, it seems like our guy is headed toward the exit here, if not like at the end of the season, maybe even sooner.

Do you think that's right? What do you think of the Doc Rivers rumors in particular about him taking Frank Vogel's place? Well, let's wait and see what happens with the Sixers before we start connecting those dots, I would say. But it does seem like a matter of time for Frank Vogel. It does seem like he was dealt a little bit of a bad hand here, not just in terms of the roster fit,

but like basically the team swerving in a way where it was, oh, you're a good defensive coach, let's give you a bunch of bad defensive players and you can coach them up and then when this is a bad defense that's his fault for being a good defensive coach question mark so he's certainly not blameless

in the organization of the team and the management of the rotation like Frank Vogel has not had a spotless season but to me he is problem LM maybe Q if we're kind of like you know power rank these items just not really a relevant part of it and yet

he's probably going to take the fall because that's how these things go So they win the championship. And even if you want to say whatever, championship bubble fluke, it doesn't matter. They were basically, they finished with the number one seat in the Western Conference. So they were one of the best teams. You can say maybe they would have lost without the bubble, whatever. They were one of the best teams in the NBA, 1920.

2021, they start 21 and 6. And then everybody starts dropping like flies. And then, you know, whatever. They had the flame out against the sun. injuries, whatever. Yeah, sons would have beat them anyway. Whatever, Phoenix. Then they trade the entirety of the team's core

and let the rest go in free agency and bring in a bunch of... Trevor Reza was the third best team on a Laco championship team 13 years ago. 13 years ago, okay? I'm going to say like the fifth best player on that team. Whatever.

Fourth best. whatever, it doesn't matter. 13 years ago, they brought that dude back. They brought in a bunch of washed-up dudes. And then the season is a disaster. Like, as Rob said, it's not like he's been freaking, you know, John Wooden this year. Like, nobody would say that.

But it's not as if he's been nothing but a scrub here. Like, they, number one seed in the West two years ago. Last year, we're on their way to doing the exact same thing. And then everybody gets hurt. And then the identity, the core of those teams, top of the league, top of the conference, was dismantled so that they could bring Russell Westbrook in. That's what happened. I think my concern about all the Vogel talk is we've already seen this out of some of the players so far.

Oh, man, we'll never know what we could have been if we were healthy. And this idea of just shirking any accountability for how bad this season has gone. And it's like, oh, if we just have a healthier team and we get a new coach in here to kind of reimagine the roster, everything is going to be fine. That's just not the case. You know, even the 21 games where Westbrook, Davis, and LeBron played together,

they were basically a 500 team. And worse than that, when all three of those guys were on the court, they had a negative 3.5 net rating, which means they were basically the Indiana Pacers. We know what they could have been. That has been asked and answered pretty definitively. Maybe they would have trended upward a little bit, figured some stuff out.

But this was not a good roster. This was not a good team. And to echo Robb's point, like, there's been studies done that basically the first 20 games of the season are what's going to happen in the season. So when you got your 20 game sample with this group, it was horrible. Objectively horrible. There's no, there was no way to paint this as, oh, but the defense was, oh, but the offense was, oh, they got unlucky with three-point defense. So are they in the clutch? They were close games and those can go either way.

No, there's no reading of this team. That's positive. Like none. There's been a lot about the injuries from Anthony Davis in particular. And it kind of assumes that the injury god. Yeah, that they're fluke. But if anything, like what's to suggest that these injuries won't continue to happen? Because LeBron James will be 38 years old next year.

And Anthony Davis has now had two injury plague seasons. And he's also been trying to. play through those injuries late in the season two years in a row, which is like pretty scary. Like you're seeing quotes from him this past week when he came back basically being like, yeah, it still hurts his foot injury, but I'm just like trying to get through it. And that's actually the worst possible thing. It seems like a lot of people, and I guess we're not blameless in this regard, have goaded him into like trying to play through some of these things.

And I wonder if long term, this is actually worse for Anthony Davis and the Lakers because maybe these things actually just get worse, not better. The conversations around injury-prone players in general are pretty unhealthy, I would say, in the NBA discourse, maybe the worst part of the NBA discourse. It's tough. And it's tough if he's feeling that pressure to play for that specific reason. Like, it's one thing to want to get back out on the floor to help your team make the play in after this disastrous season. That is what it is. But if you're getting out there to prove people wrong, I mean, our incentive structure is just broken as all hell, if that's the case.

Yeah. And so on the one hand, to play devil's... advocate. I could see a Lakers team with a healthy LeBron NAD, just having anything around them and being successful. I don't know. Let's not forget. A.D. LeBron team has never lost a playoff series. That's true. Maybe Doc is the perfect coach for this team. Yeah, exactly.

All right, let's turn to our all-MBA picks now. Rob, you have a ballot, an official one. Yeah, big dog. Yeah. Waz and I have unofficial ballots, but we're here to help you. Yeah, I think this is a collaborative process. I'm hoping to get, you know, get the input from you to, shape my ballot, correct my wrongs.

I think there's a lot of good we can do here as a team. Rob's got an all-MBA ballot. I didn't even make Tim Bond temp straw poll. Well, on that ballot, then, it should read the ringers NBA group chat, you know? If you guys want to share

in the mentions and response, then by all means, let's do it. Yeah. All right. Let's, should we get the positional thing out of the way here? Yeah. So I'm sure you've heard this griping from every podcast and every article about this, but it's kind of unavoidable.

You are allowed to essentially, Rob, vote Nicola Yokic and Joel and Bede, both as centers and forward. And there are other players up and down the roster that have that sort of flexibility. No. Good. Yeah. It's really the yokech and imbid one that is going to determine a lot because moving one of those guys to forward as opposed to center, it's obviously going to have some pretty unfortunate repercussions for some good forwards who might have otherwise made the third team. And most importantly, you're getting two of the best three players this season on the first team.

Right. And the part that muddles it especially is that where you put them counts toward that that's what counts. Right. So the players get placed at the position where they receive the most votes. So my understanding is, like, if I happen to put him, if I put Embed as a forward and Yokic as a center, and Mbid just happens to get mostly forward votes, he will go in as a forward. Such a mess. But, like, if there's some weird sort of split vote situation,

like, is there a possibility that, like, one of them slinks to the second team as a result of that? Yeah, I think the most likely scenario is the people who would vote Embed for MVP are probably going to put him at center and Yokic at forward and vice versa. and both those guys are going to end up with more center than forward votes and thus be categorized as centers for voting purposes. This is all ridiculous.

Like this is crazy that this is the conversation around the best players in the NBA when we should be saying, let's throw these guys on there in Penn. Janus and Bid Yokic first team, done, let's forget the other two spots. We just don't have that luxury because this system is, I mean, it's frankly ridiculous.

So where did you end up in terms of that debate specifically? I mean, to our listeners, I would think you're probably not, surprised at all to hear that I ended up putting Embed on the second team and I don't want I don't want to do it I my personal positional politics are much more fluid than that but the exercise is pick the guards pick the forwards pick the centers neither Nicola yokic or joel and beat is a forward I don't feel comfortable putting them in those spots so that's where I ended up how do you feel about that was I mean if we're going to do the the ridiculous gymnastics I'm

going to put Embed at center and Yokic at Ford, just because Yokic does more non-center things than Embed, not necessarily that there are even power forward things that he's doing. They're really point guard things. Really, should I slot him in the guard position since he's his team's de facto point guard? I don't know. But just based off of that very flawed logic, I would have Embed-Center, Yokic at the forward, joined, of course, by the Nigerian freak Janice Ante Dacompo. So that's where I'm at with it.

If I can't make those distinctions, Mbid is going to the second team, just like Rob just said, Yokic is going to center, Janice and LeBron of my forwards. Yeah, I hate it, but I also have Yokic at center and M. B on the second team. I struggled with as a lot, like I'm sure most people did. But I think the most convincing argument is Bill Russell, made a lot of second team simply because

people could not put him, yeah, because Will Chamberlain was on the first team. And it sucks, I hope they change it. I don't know if they're going to change it anytime soon, but that's where I have it. I guess the question then becomes, Rob, like, why do you pick Yokic over and beat? Well, I mean, he's my MVP pick for reasons

we've litigated a lot on this pot. Just the comprehensive, offensive impact, the idea that, you know, for as good as Joel is defensively, I don't think he's so meaningfully better that he's overwhelming. a guy who's propping up a roster of, like, let's be honest,

like six and seventh men primarily in Denver. Just look at the Lakers, okay? Just look at what LeBron and the limited AD and all of that stuff. And then look at what Nicola Yolkich has done with that team. Yep. I will say like Aaron Gordon's probably better than anyone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That's fair. Both, except Anthony Davis, you know. Yeah. Future all-MBA player, Bones Highland. also in the mix. So I do think you have to give some credit

to the Nuggets organization for surrounding that Yokic with the right guys and having this deep bench of quality guys to support him. And so it gets into that murky territory. It's like, oh, do I give Yokic more credit because he's playing with less? And then I guess you actually have to ask the question

is him playing with less? Like, because like is Tyrese that's much better than Aaron Gordon and like Hardin's there. But as we've discussed most, like, for many, many podcasts now, like, he hasn't been giving them a ton. And so, like, why, if you had to make the choice, you're going Yokic, right? 100%.

And again, like I said, it's just his offensive impact is just on a level that just, it's incomprehensible damn near. He has absolutely no weaknesses to his game on office. There's nothing he can't do offensively. And then on defense, particularly in the regular season, he's made himself, above average defender at his position, which is like something that I couldn't even fathom back when I was, you know, derisively calling him Jochic.

And that was four years ago. I'm a believer now. But I'm just saying, like, I couldn't even fathom that he would get to above average, you know. And again, man, I've just become the ultimate Yokic truther, to be honest. He's incredible. And this season was no different.

He's a deserving. MVP award recipient to me. Yeah, it's not even just about what he doesn't have in terms of support, but as Was is lying out, everything he gives you and that game that's completely without anything you can expose. There's no way you can put him in a spot he's not comfortable in. To the point where he's just wildly efficient and not only, you know, not only is he the best passing big man we've ever seen, not only is he's so great at running their offense. He's just the most efficient post player in the NBA right now full stop. On top of that, on top of the, on top of the

range on top of the fact that he's a three point thread he's good inside and out he's good from everywhere on the floor he's unstoppable having said that imb probably going to win the scoring title yep the sixers two more wins than the nuggets and should i be impressed by that imbid probably good neck and neck and wins well i mean we're literally splitting hairs here um and bid probably going to be an all defense all defense defender right there maybe we'll see yeah we'll see if he makes well if bam is a center probably not but he's like on the short list of top tier defenders. For sure.

If you're going to make the case, it's pretty convincing for Embed. So, like, I can understand if other people want to go with Embed. I ultimately went with Yokic, too. There's like a statemuse infographic going around here, basically listing 36 statistical categories, a lot of advanced stats that, like, honestly, I don't even know what they mean. But Yonkich is leading in 23 of the 36. That's crazy. And it's really tough to ignore something like that.

that just like the command he has over an entire game, even though he isn't a dominant defender is what I ultimately mean Don Yokic for. So let's talk about the other ballot. So Yokic at center, Yoss has Janus and Embed at Forward. Rob, who are your other forwards? I went with, I mean, Janus is a lock. I think we can all agree on that, right? Of course. So the other forward spot for me, I went Jason Tatum. And it's both an acknowledgment. of the season Boston has had. It's his incredible offensive progression over the course of this year.

If you're going to compare him to someone like Kevin Durant, for example, who I think has a credible case as one of the best fucking players in the world, there's a huge gap in terms of minutes played, games played that works in Tatum's favor. And also, if you want to compare him to the other all-N-BIA candidates,

I think Tatum is really in a category with Janus, with Embed, as probably the most reliable defensive guys in this bunch. Like, he's made himself into a really stout and versatile defensive player in a way that you just can't save for a lot of these other, a lot of these other,

even though we're talking about the best players in the league, a lot of these guys are offense first. Yeah, I think Tatum's the easy pick if you don't want to go Embed in that second forward spot since the All-Star break, 31.1 points per game

on 51, 41, 87 shooting. But there was that portion of the season before the All-Star break that did have. I know, I know. But ultimately, he's numbers 27, 8, and 4, and he's playing for a team that probably would have won the East, if not for Robert Williams, going out. I just think, like, the difference between a jazz of years past regular season juggernaut and the Celtics is a guy like Tatum, where you could say, oh, this guy is the type of guy who could win you a playoff series potentially bring you to the finals.

And I think that has to be reward in some way. But I think Wads brings up a very good point. There are a couple of guys here who didn't have great starts. They had great finishes. Luca Donchage is another one. I'm sure, like, we all have him. as a first team guard, like, I don't know. Like, how much do you weigh that against him was?

I mean, but see, but Luca, Luca's playing at a 2012 LeBron level in the second half of the season, right? Like, that's a, that's a considerable difference in performance than Tatum, who I got a lot of respect for and I love. And, you know, like, I'm somebody who's been kind of skeptical of Tatum obsessiveness. but he's been, especially the type of defender he's turned himself into. Like, I got a lot of respect for what he's done throughout the course of the season. Boston has been the best Eastern Conference team for three months after, I mean, before Robert Williams went down.

So, like, and he's the catalyst to that and a pretty inefficient by what I would have expected from Jalen Brown offensively season, right? So you got to give him his respect for that. again, being part of a defense that was world beating, historic, like just one of the best defenses we've seen in years. So I'll give them the respect for that. I just think, like, you know, the few Lakers games that I did go to this season, like, as whack as the team has been, like, I'm watching LeBron play. I'm like, no, those guys are still, like, legitimately a great player.

And I get that the stats were inflated by some of those center minutes, which was just like, this is just the most ridiculous legacy. Like, I remember when it was a complaint that LeBron had to play point guard, right? And, of course, they actually win games for that. And it was all this carping about it. He played center this year and they got their asses. Like, that's just kind of crazy that this guy played center and point guard for this team within a two-year span. But I just think LeBron has had just amazing season.

And to me, he's first team all-N-B-A, regardless of how awful the team was. So I would definitely lean LeBron, but I think Tatum is the person that, you know, to me is that third forward spot. Whether we're doing the gymnastics of Embed, Yonis, Yolkitch, how we're doing that positional thing. But I think Tatum is definitely the rightful air to, you know, after Janice and LeBron the third forward. So you're saying if not Embed at forward, you would go LeBron? Yes. Yeah. I see.

I see. Well, Justin, how did you think about LeBron? because he was a guy who's tough to parse for a lot of reasons. I mean, just an amazing player in general, but an awful team. And how do we, like, the problem I came up with LeBron was not first team. It was honestly second or third team. So I'm curious what you're thinking was. I have my third team.

Yeah. And it was tough because I think Tatum, Janus is a clear cut first team if you don't want to put and beat it forward. And then it gets pretty difficult from there because Kevin Durant is also having an incredible season. 50, 40, 90, by the way, and dragging his team to the play-in despite the fact that two of his best teammates basically like turned on him in different ways. And he's lost Joe Harris. The team has basically been a shelf itself. It hasn't been as bad as the Lakers, but it's been pretty bad.

And yet they are above 500 and going into the play-in. And so for that reason, I put him on the second team. And I put Demarra Rosen on the second team as well simply because of the team success. Like at a certain point, I just don't know if you can overlook the fact that the Lakers have been wildly bad. And I don't know how much you can ding LeBron for that. But on the other hand, like, I think there are credible cases. Like if LeBron was peak LeBron and maybe like 35, 36, we wouldn't be talking about the Lakers in the play. And we'd be talking about them as a surefire. And another thing with the LeBron thing for me, too, is like last year we was talking about him at one point. as an MVP candidate and legitimately so. And I don't think he's played much differently. Like, I really don't. That's why I'm just like, he's still first team to me. Like, just off of, and I'm somebody who put stock in the resume. You know, like, I put stock in the equity that you've put in as a player.

You know, like, you've demonstrated that you are amongst the best basketball players on the planet in year 18. Is it 18 or 19? I can't even fucking keep count anymore. Just keep raising. It's a year of 23. The legend grows. Right. And so for me, I do put stock in that.

And that's where I'm just like, just last year, this guy was MVP candidate. And I can't see a measurable difference from his game this year to last year. And the numbers bear it out, inflated as they might be from those ridiculous center lineups. You know, that's just my own thinking of it. But I don't begrudge somebody who's like, Tatum should be above him or even can. or, you know, whoever somebody else wants to put in there. One thing I was thinking about with LeBron, and I, in general with my ballot,

I try not to draw any hard lines. I don't have, you have to play 55 games. You have to have X number of minutes. I find that really counterproductive to the exercise. But the thought did cross my mind. If your team isn't in the top 10 in your conference, should you be qualified for all NBA? And again, it's not LeBron.

fault, which is why we have to ask the question. And ultimately, I decided I just don't like that kind of disqualifier. But I think you have to ask the question. But at the same time, Rob, I think artificially, I just, I think that's this year specifically where like, if these games were actually important and the Lakers actually thought there was something at stake, LeBron would be playing these last few games. So, like, they would have put themselves in a better position. record-wise, but I think everybody realized, like, the temps.

What am we doing here? If LeBron comes back and plays in order to get the scoring title, would that help his case or hurt his case in your guys is mine? Irrelevant. Yeah. I think it would have to heard it for me. Like, on the one hand, getting the scoring title is great. And in some way unavoidable, like, you have to respect that. But, like, the fact that he would come back for it, I think would almost like make me want to get him off the ballot.

That's a full bar. That's a full bar. That's a bad look if LeBron does that. But, Waz, you mentioned something there, you know, if these games actually mattered, if there was something at stake for the Lakers. To me, that ended up coming up in the kind of like weighing LeBron versus a guy like Demarder Rosen,

who the Bulls have played games that matter all season long. And LeBron has put up incredible numbers in games that just flat don't. And how you weigh those things as a voter is always interesting to me, especially when it's like it's so clear that in a vacuum, LeBron is a better basketball player than DeMartre Rosen. Yeah, sure. But who has had the better, more impactful season is a more nuanced question. This should represent the best players of this season.

This is not a Lifetime Achievement Award. I'm sorry, Wise. But like, this is the 2021, 2021, 2022, all-MBA team. And, like, Demar de Rosen and the Chicago Bulls had better seasons than LeBron and the Lakers. And even DeMar, I get into the, I feel like I'm the only person on the Demar. Why isn't he a guard? like a dude who's 6-5 who's always dribbling the basketball. Like in my mind's eye, that's a guard.

Yeah. Right? I get that he never fucking guards him. It's kind of like an actor who is the lead in the movie going to best supporting actor because it was just easier to win in that category. Yeah, he never guards, guards ever. They just don't even let him go near them ever. And some people would say that his best position defensively,

is power forward these days, which is absurd. It's just like, yo, like, I watch this guy take fadeaways and dribble through his legs and B6-5, and I'm like, isn't this a guard? I don't know. It's one of those weird things for me with DeMarre positionally. And he's not the only one. Jason Tatum is in that category too.

Plays forward, functions kind of like a guard. Technically is eligible at both. And Jimmy Butler, who I think has a good case for third team, does not play guard. is eligible at guard if you want to put him in there. But I guess we should circle back to the first team guards and finish up kind of our first team ballot before we get to those guys.

Yeah, so who did you have? So I went Luca. Are you guys in agreement on that one? Yes, an agreement. Quick note on that one, though, if he makes the first team would be his third first team selection in the first four years of his career. Can you remember the last player to do that?

Tim Duncan, maybe? Tim Duncan. Wow, great guess. Thank you. He did it. all four years. I was about to say Shown. Fucking incredible.

Yeah. But then also we were calling him powerful, but then it gets powerful but whatever. Tim Duncan is another positional Oh yeah.

Mind fuck who gets on my nervous and the the greatest power forward of all time. He plays center his whole freaking career, y'all. It's really the original

sin of category fraud is Tim Duncan. It's Tim Duncan. He's the patient zero of it. Oh, absolutely. But yeah, for the other guard spot,

I think it's a tough contest. I ended up going Steph Curry in that spot. Same. And I've seen a lot of Devin Booker push lately and I get it. I get the appeal. I think Steph has a more comprehensive impact. I think what Steph does to an offense

is so huge and transformative that even in a down year for him, even if he's not shooting well like he was, especially at the end of 2021, it doesn't really matter. He opens up so much for so many people that the offense still hums, the defense still works. I think he's ultimately a pretty underrated defender even still.

By net rating, when he's on the floor, the Warriors are a better team than the sons are with Booker on the floor. There's things like that that in a season where the wind differential is so stark between those teams, that kind of jumps out to me. When Steph is out there, the Warriors are still great. And I have a hard time looking at Devin Booker and saying, that guy's a top two guard in the NBA right now. I don't think I'm quite there.

No, I just think, I just watch the freaking games. Even in a down year, I think Steph is at a true shooting of like 60, 61%, which is, again, down year for Steph Curry. And I think his offensive impact is Yokic. Who else can you say has a bigger offensive impact than Steph Curry in the entire league? Right. So how am I supposed to take this from?

And again, I'm somebody who has versus. for the past, the consistency of the past performances. And yes, this has been a blip as far as this, the first time he's under 40% from three, but still, 38% at a massive volume is what you would want from every single other player at his position in the whole freaking NBA, right? And again, as Rob so, you know, astutely pointed out, the gravity, the spacing. Come on, man, like, stop this. I love Devin Booker.

I was actually somebody who was a Devin Booker guy back before Phoenix actually put good players next to him. And people had this idea that he was somehow this Malik Monk type of guy who's only putting up numbers on horrific teams. I've always loved Devin Booker and what he brought to the table. However, you have not been better than Steph Curry this year. There's no argument for that, in my opinion. Are you talking about Malik Monk now or Malik Monk on the Hornets? I think he's wolf. Justin, I can see in your eyes that you are at Devin Booker brother.

Yeah, I was just waiting in the wings there because I have Devin Booker on my first team. And I have to say, first of all, props to the Sun's Twitter account for some elite propaganda. Because ever since they put out that infographic about players who had played on the best team in the NBA, who had X amount of stats, always made it in the MVP. like one MVP, right? And ever since then, you hear Devin Booker top five MVP, Devin Booker first team all NBA. And so to a certain extent, I realize that this is bullshit and I do think people have been swayed by just sheer propaganda.

Let's be honest. Wait, but you're acknowledging it's bullshit and saying people have been swayed, but you are the people who have been swayed. It's true. Yeah, I'm a sap one. But I also, like, it did force me to look at the argument more seriously. And so what's funny is, I didn't think you guys would vote Steph first team all-MBA. But I have a note here in my outline that, like, comparing and contrasting Devin Booker's stats

to Steph. Yeah. And they're remarkably similar. So Booker has 27, 5 and 5. Steph is 26, 6, and 5. Booker is shooting 47, 38, 87. Steph is shooting 44, 38, and 92. And so on the one hand, you could say, oh, Steph does more for an offense.

On the other hand, you could say Devin Booker plays for an absolute. dominant Phoenix Sun's team. And when CP3 was out, Loss's face, I wish we could convey this in audio right now. In the 16 games when Chris Paul was out, Booker had 30 points, or average 30 points, 7.3.3 assists, 4.6 rebounds on 53, 40, 90, and 12 games played. So it's really opportunity.

Like, I credit Chris Paul for everything he does for that team, but clearly Booker can reach another level statistically when he has more opportunities, and that's what tilts me to Booker over Steph. But are the Suns dominant because Devin Booker is having a jaw-dropping season? And I think the answer is no. They're awesome because he's been great.

I mean, he's a stone-cold, all-N-B-A guard, lock it in, write it in blood. Like, he's been amazing. Yeah, he's all-MBA. For sure. On the second of 13th, but he's just not... I don't... Like, at a certain point, outside of just the on-off metrics or whatever Steph's offensive rating is,

whenever he steps on the court as opposed to Bookers, just watch how the games sort of manifest themselves. Steph is the literal engine. You know, I think Devin Booker is like staring will. These things are important. You need those things to function. But they ain't the engine. Come on now.

You know, I think Steph is just a different, he's of a different level of importance to what happens on the offensive end and Devin Booker. Who is, again, an exemplary NBA player? I'm just rewarding the production. Just win, baby. I'm rewarding what actually happened,

not my interpretation of what's going on. Oh, wow, wow. And Booker has pretty much the same stats. on a team with 13 more wins. And I think at a certain point, you have to favor the team production and the goal of basketball, which is to win more games than your opponent.

Are they the same stats? I mean, there's a pretty big chunk of efficiency differential between them if you look at stuff like true shooting. And so it's like they're putting up similar points, but one of these guys is doing it much more efficiently. He's having a bigger impact on his teammates while he's on the floor. I'm just hearing you don't want to do the work, Justin.

I want to step back. I don't want to interpret the action. I just want to be told by the numbers and the win totals who to vote for. So what is the true shooting difference? It's basically Steph takes more threes, which are more efficient shots. He takes a ton of threes. Makes him at a super high level. And those are incredibly high difficulty shots.

I guess what I'm saying is if Chris Paul wasn't driving the offense, how many threes would Devin Booker get up? Like, he would probably shoot 20 more threes a game knowing him. Well, my counterpoint, and I mean this affectionately, again, Devin Booker's been great. Is he even the best player on his own team? I would argue, still no. That's fair.

Right. Right. If you were to look at this, you would say, still, Paul is the driving force of the team. And I don't discount that. But I just, I mean, I'm looking at the production

and I'm just saying, like, this is what happened this season and we reward what we see, you know? Honestly, he's a totally valid pick. Like, Devin Booker has been awesome. The sons have been incredible. And if he's not a lock for first team, I think he has to be a lock for second team.

Okay, so let's talk about second team then. So you had Rob, Luca, and Steph Curry. So who's on your second team at Guard? So at Guard for second team, I just kept it simple. Devin Booker, Chris Paul. As you're saying, reward the best team in the NBA, reward the incredible things they've been able to do, both together and apart.

Booker has been an incredible crunch time performer, incredible in all context as a score. And Paul is still just one of the absolute best guys out there to organize your offense. And those are things that I like to reward with my ballot. Yeah, give me Booker, Jiam, Jiam, and Embed. And that's my second team. You know, of course, Embed, again, one of the four or five best players in the league.

But because, and I think we'd, by the way, I think we'd run into different problems if we just did the five best guys that would open up a whole other can of worms for all NBA. So, like, I don't even think we need to do that. Well, hold on. Do you want to do that? Like, what would be the issue? Who the fifth guy is? I think, like, based on the year, like, like, for instance, that time where, you know, we were dealing with, like, middling centers and we took the center out of the all-star ballot or whatever for the reserves.

And it's like, yo, we don't have to pick, you know, Roy Hibbert for no good reason. I think that's the kind of stuff that it would create. Be like, wait, so we're just not going to have any point guards on this list or we're just not going to do this? Like, I think it would create that level of problem. That's the only reason I bring it up. And to say, like, second team all-MBA is nothing to sneeze at. And like I said, KD.

Well, hold on a second. Like, I kind of want to do the best five players. Like, what's just... The best five players... I would say we already do. It's called the MVP ballot. Exactly. Exactly.

But I think the problem with... totally wiping positions off of all NBA. I don't necessarily want to operate in a space where the media vote is determining contracts for players and how much money they can make. And centers in that case would be categorically disadvantaged, even more than they already are. There's already only three spots relative to six for forward and guard.

Does Carl Towns make all NBA without a center position? Probably not. Maybe, maybe on some people, but I think it would be a much more challenging case. He'd be on the brink. Yeah. Whereas he's a lock now. Well, I have them kind of with a bullet, but I guess we can get to that. Well, just to reiterate why the current positional setup is so ridiculous,

they've already changed All-Star to front-court, back-court, in a way that would open things up a lot more. Or if you want to do like, you know, like front court, front court, back-court, back-court, and then you have one like flex spot where you can do either one. I'm open to either of those kinds of options, but just give us a little more that we can do without having to commit category fraud, please. Right. If it was more flexible, though, because I do want to get this on the record,

we would all pick Yokic, Embed, Yonis, Luca, right? Is the four? Yeah. Yeah, they would all be in there for top five. Okay. So who would your fifth be? That's the question. I think that's actually a really interesting discussion.

Like, I probably would, just looking at this, would pick Tatum. But you're, you're just asking us to have an MVP conversation now. Again, like, so it's either. I'm still Steph. Steph is, is, is, is my friend. Yeah. Steph is still my fifth. I think I would also have Tatum.

Okay. See, I think that's interesting. Like, to me, the Golden State Warriors are a good team because they have Steph Curry on it. Like, straight up and down. Like, all of that beautiful game shit, all of the stuff that they do doesn't matter. Clay Thompson being a damn shell of himself besides all of those trays they splashed the other day.

Drey Monop. Like, none of this shit matter. Drapon play all the games you want. Clay Thompson, play the whole season. They're not a good team without Steph Curry. Straight up. I didn't think I would pick Tatum as the fifth guy here. And like, I don't know if I would if you were to give me an MVP ballot even like, I just can't put Tim and fifth. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, I'm really interrogating my own feelings on this thing.

I'm learning a lot about myself. Steph Curry is one of the 15 best players in the history of this damn sport. And he's still playing at a ridiculously high level. supposed to pick Jason Tatum over him. That's ridiculous to me. I just can't. I can't do it. I can't take myself there.

All right. Let's finish up the second team, though. So, Rob, you had Chris Ball and Devin Booker. Yeah. And who else was on your team? KD, who I think has to be a lock for second team, even with the games played. It's just way too good to leave off of second team. And Joel, also a lock.

So then it's really that of their forward spot. And for me, it's do you go DeMar or do you go LeBron? right now I'm kind of leaning Damar I would say for all the reasons we've kind of already gone through and not only has he played like more games that matter this season but has been incredible in all the ways that the Bulls need him to be

and his team's winning efforts for a team that's 14 games better than the Lakers have come in spite of all these other injury troubles Zach Levine, Kobe White, Alex Caruso, Lonzo Ball, Patrick Williams all missing dozens and dozens of games this season.

Hadn't I mean it slowed them down but it hasn't stopped them from being a good team or stopped Demar from doing what he does or producing in a huge way. Right. I had Damar and KD as well for similar thinking. At Guard, I differed from Rob slightly. I have

Steph and I have John Morant. The Morant conversation is pretty interesting to me just because the statistics are kind of unimpeachable, just like an incredible season driving force behind one of the most entertaining and best teams in basketball this year.

fortunately he's missed a lot of games he's at 56 right now we'll see if he comes back by the end of the regular season um but in those games that he's missed the chrisleys have been incredible they are 20 in three without jaw and they just lost the third game last night in overtime to the jazz so 20 wins which is the same amount of wins as the houston rockets in 58 fewer opportunities which is insane So, like, on the one hand, Jaws record, or his individual statistics, he has to be on here somewhere.

But I see that, and I think to myself, like, how much do I need to reconsider this? Rob, you obviously thought about it a little bit. Yeah. I mean, he's tough, not only for the reasons you mentioned, but the case to put him on, beyond the production, beyond being one of the most interesting and fascinating

and cerebral players to watch in the NBA right now, which is amazing to watch him pick apart defenses. I think he is really the model of a young leader in the NBA in the way that he spots, spotlights and energizes his teammates. And so my philosophy all across the ballot is, I'm not going to take away from guys' cases for what happens when they're not on the court.

I'm going to focus largely on when they are on the court. What does their team play like? That's why Yokic has such a great case, not only for this, but for MVP. The nuggets are great when he's on the floor. The Grizzlies are very good when John Moran is on the floor. And I think one of the areas in which, which my philosophy kind of gets fuzzy and bleeds over is I do think he does have some effect

on those games that you're talking about, even when he doesn't play. Like, his presence, I think, does matter to that team in his particular leadership style. That said, he just played significantly fewer minutes and games than Curry and Chris Paul. Two guys who are, I think, just better players definitively, if we're going by, like, just the, who are the best players in the NBA metric? You think Chris Paul's better than John Morant? I do. Hmm.

So Steph Curry gets the godfather treatment for us, not Chris Paul. You mean the two-time MVP, one of them being unanimous, the three-time champion? One of the greatest offensive players in the history, like the guy who bended the game to his will, changed basketball forever. You mean that guy? Yeah, I'm going to be deferential. to him. Yes. I'm with you on Team Steph. I'm just also

Team Chris Paul when it comes to measuring him against... Love Chris Paul. And here's the thing about the Grizzlies. When I see them, I see the Nate Robinson Joaquino-led Bulls. Still went to the playoffs, made noise

in the regular season. You know, like if this team did this for a whole season, that's what they would be. Right? This really plucky, work hard, execute game plan, all of that kind of stuff ultimately would not matter. I'm not going to take away from John Morant because his team plays hard and executes when he's not there. Like to me, that's just a testament to the greatness of the team. John Moran, and another thing I think

that hurts John Moran is I think his value will be elevated in a playoff setting when he's playing against set real defenses all day. And let's face it, Bain and Melton ain't going to be killing defenses, half-court defenses. Like, that's just not going to be the case. Like, if you took this Grizzlies team and, you know, let them play against the Celtics, right? They're not killing people. They're going to switch those fools to death and be like, all right, break me down off the dribble,

Dylan Brooks. Like, stop this. I don't know why I have to pretend that it's a great team accomplishment, but it's not some referendum on the, you know, the contributions of John Morant on the floor where, again, like, his numbers back it up and I get his on, off, all of that kind of stuff doesn't wow you the way some of these other guys do. I just think it's just obvious he's been incredible and he deserves even consideration for first team to my mind.

Even more so than again, like, I love what Chris Paul does. I love that he takes it easy for three quarters and he's like, is Mr. Clutch and it's great. And I love it. but he's averaging like 15 points. Like, come on, man. Like, give John Moran his just dude. He's the second, he's the second team all-NBA for me right next to Devin Booker. We're better than points per game here, Waz.

We're better than that. Are we? I have him in the same category as Kevin Durant, where it's, he didn't play enough games. So I can't really put him on the first team. But the record is just unimpeachable. Like, he did too much. He meant too much to his team. his team was too, well, in Durand's case, decent enough to overlook.

And so that's why they make it in the second team. That feels right to me. Like you were great, but there are some flaws here that I have to recognize so you're on the second team. Yeah, one of their qualifier on John Morant is among the players that I considered, I would say him and Trey Young are in a category unto themselves as just the worst defensive players in this group. That's true.

Well, especially compared to Chris Paul, who is. a bulldog of a defender can guard guys, a cross size is just so good and so sharp in that regard. That's a tough comparison for me. Yep. And so I have Paul on my third team along with Trey Young. Rob, who do you have? Yeah, I think

it's Trey there too. So for me it's just the opposite. It's John Miranda and Trey Young. And that leaves Donovan Mitchell out in the cold, which is tough. But I just look at Trey. I look at Trey. Give him a parke. Send him out there. I look at Trey and see a guy who did his job.

And it's to drive that offense and he put up sensational numbers while he was doing it. And the Hawks for as much as we talked about them as a disappointing team and I think they aren't where they want to be are not an abject disaster. They're probably going to finish with about 43 wins. And a lot of that is because of Trey. And it's his ability to elevate a lot of role players who are having underwhelming, middling, and consistent kinds of seasons. They've had their own injury cases of, you know, John Collins out right now, for example, a guy is super important to their. team. Clint Capella not always being in the form he was last season. Trey has been really the constant and he's been an iron man for them in terms of how much he's

played. He's been incredible on offense. And defense, you know, again, it is what it is. And especially if you're comparing him to Donovan Mitchell, it's not like there's some great shakes there. But that was one of the things about this year's all NBA ballot is I thought there was a pretty strong 17 guys. And it was really a matter of, are you going to put Donovan or Trey for this last spot. There's a couple, you know, maybe one other guy who's going to be left off the list we can talk about in these other positions coming up. But it really did solidify around 17 or 18 candidates for me. And again, to echo what Rob just said, you can call me an old fogie for this. This is another year which Tray Young by himself is a competent offense unto itself. Like, just by the fact

that he plays, your offense is competent. Contacts be damned. It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't matter who's out there with him. You're going to score at an extremely efficient clip just by this guy's existence. So to me, of course, he's on the third team. And then, you know, with Donovan Mitchell, another guy, love Donovan Mitchell. I don't know how you could watch what's been going on this year. And I'm sorry, all of this crap he's doing with Rudy and the underachievement of that team. And it's just like I'm supposed to love what he's done.

I don't think so. To me, this is clearly Chris Paul and Trey Young on the third team. And again, what I was saying about Chris Paul, this is in comparison to Jama rant, like electricity. You know what I mean? You can't put Jama rant and what Donovan Mitchell's done this year in the same category of effectiveness, in my opinion. And so, yeah, Chris Paul easily, comfortably slots into that third team, as well. well as Trey Young because obviously I'm in the tank for Trey Young, but the proof is in the pudding too. This is the third year in a row, again, all he does is show up and put out

dope offense. What if we only factored in Donovan Mitchell's statistic when passing to everyone other than Rudy Goubert? Does that help or does that hurt his case? Yo, Donovan, like, man, even last night, there was like three plays in a row. where Memphis decided we can't guard this pick and roll with Rudy conventionally. We're going to switch it. And we're going to put Bain, who's six foot three on a good day, on Rudy freaking Gobert. And one time they got it to Rudy and he caught it over this midget's head and dunked it.

The other time, Bain fouled him because he's pulling him by the waist. And the other time, turnover. Turnover because they can't find this dude. You know, and again, I got to put that on Donovan Mitchell. I can't, I think, but it's also twofold, too. Some people would say the job to beat a switch, a big, small switch, actually falls on the guard. Like, you should be the one just blowing by your big man beating him off the dribble, which I think Mitchell still has that ankle problem that he can't do it,

but he damn sure wasn't doing it last night. A couple of times his finishes just got smothered at the cup when he tried to attack the switch. But the other thing is like, you're not beating your guy and you can't get the ball to a seven dude, seven two dude who's being guarded by a six three guy? I'm sorry, man. This has been happening all year, and I think it has a ripple effect,

a cascading effect where it affects the defense too. You know, where Rudy's your most important guy, and he's the only one who's any good at that end. And sometimes some possessions, he's like, fuck these dudes. And nobody's been as hard on Rudy Gobert as I have been traditional. But like I got to ding Donovan Mitchell for I was about to call him McNab Donovan Mitchell for what's happened this year. So that brings us to Rudy Gobert too, I think.

Did anybody have him on their ballot at center? I did not. Yeah. Well, I think this is an interesting discussion because I do wonder how much the jazz is recent results. Well, it's that. But I also wonder how much we just like write off the jazz at this point. both because of their malaise and the fact that I think we're growing tired of just this story and their style of plays a little bit more plotting than some other teams.

And I do start to interrogate my own beliefs and like, should someone from the jazz be on here? Because they have been pretty good, both individually and as a team, better even than a guy like towns and the wolves. Like so, I don't know. Rob, did you wrestle with that at all? Yeah, I think Gobert is in the mix. You know, he's probably the next guy up. It's either him or bam for me if it's not going to be towns. The Goberra thing is tricky because I ultimately went with towns because I find that towns is a little more central to what makes the wolves a good team.

And that puts Rudy in an uncomfortable spot because I'm also leaving Donovan Mitchell off my ballot. He is central to what drives the jazz, which is great offense. They are the number one offensive team in the league this season. That's insane. Atlanta, though, is the number two offensive. team in the league this season. And I think Trey Young, what he does individually is to me just a little, a little bit more

impressive than what Donovan does. So I'm left in the position where I'm not picking either jazz guy for a pretty good jazz team, if one that we think is ultimately pretty doomed. And Gobert is a guy who's going to be on a lot of defensive player of the year ballots. He's going to be on a lot of all defense teams, or at least should be if people aren't sick of him winning and him being in the running for those awards. But Towns has been amazing. and he's been focal.

He is, like, his involvement in the offense. The idea that the wolves would miss the chance to set up someone like towns offensively is incomprehensible, which means he's just involved in a lot more possessions than even a guy like Gobert is. Yeah, part of it for me is that all-MBA, we tend to privilege offense more

because there's a such thing as the all-defensive team. And so that being baked into how we dole out these awards, it seems obvious to me that Towns would get the nod here because we privilege offense here. And I think rightfully so. I think it's more rare that you have a player who is incredible at offense than it is a defensive player. You know, it's just a more valuable commodity. And so I'm a slot called Townsend here perfectly, which I think is a different question than who's better. this year.

Because I related to Janice and Yokic MVP debate. Give me Janice in the playoffs. Give me Yokic for MVP, especially because we say it's a regular season award. Conversely, I'm taking

Rudy in the playoffs over Carl Towns because this man can't play defense. He's okay. He can't play defense. Rob, stop it. He can't play defense. He's okay. Do you think you think you can put together a high-quality NBA playoff-level team with Carl Towns playing defense the way he does?

Under any context? I mean, like, we've seen teams win without incredible defenses. You know, like the Cleveland Cavaliers won with okay defensive personnel plus LeBron. I think under the right circumstances of Carl Town's team could be a A. So LeBron James in 2016. I'm not saying, I'm not saying they, like, you can win a chance. championship with this guy without significant help. But could the wolves, if everything goes according to plan, if Anthony Edwards

pops and becomes a star, could they make a conference finals someday? I wouldn't write that possibility off. I would. And I just like Rudy better as a player. Just, you know, the stuff about what he does on offense, I think, you know, we don't, that stat that shall never be named again. We don't need to go in that direction. I just think he's not some huge issue.

offensively. Like, he makes his free throws decent enough. He, he has the freaking vertical gravity where you have to respect what he might be able to do as a lob threat. He just has enough offensively while also being a dominant defensive player. Whereas Carl Towns, man, on defense,

that shit is nasty. It's nasty to watch. It's not that bad. Was, just a minute, man. You love Rudy Gobert. I think you have to put him on your ballot at this point. No, Rudy's definitely. for him.

Not the third team all-MBA. He's the first-team center. First-team all defensive center. I'm sorry. All-N-B-A,

this is where I get put the buckets. This is where I put offense. I can't do it for you, Rudy. But you win something more special a place in your heart. Yes. Yes, absolutely. All right,

why we wrap this up with forwards here? Rob, you had LeBron as a third-team forward, right? Yeah. So LeBron is in there in Penn. That one's easy. The last one is And for me, it is Jimmy Butler or Pascal Seacom.

I went with Seacom. And for me, it's these guys do functionally, actually very similar things for their teams right now. Seacom is one of the highest usage ISO guys in the league. Jimmy Butler obviously has to carry a really big offensive load in terms of shot creation for the heat. But again, it's one of these cases where there's a pretty big differential in terms of how much they've played.

I think Pascal has played like 600-something minutes more than Butler, which is like 35% of Butler's total minutes this season, that's a, that's hard to overcome if you're talking about comprehensive impact. And ultimately, I'm just swayed by how much the Raptors have been able to rely on Pascal in a wide variety of roles and capacities on both sides of the floor, the combination of versatility and that like go-to effectiveness, I find that he's had a really good season. So I think this is where we get into some murky territory, where you have to start parsing whether or not the absences were due to injuries or due to COVID outbreaks and how much you even weigh both of those things against someone because Butler has only played 55 games,

but if I recall that he had a particularly bad COVID outbreak, which kept a lot of their players out for longer, whereas Pascal had the injury. And so I'm almost like, do I really knock Butler for something that's beyond his control? And then you get into the weird thing where it's like, well, do I knock Pascal because he got injured? Like, it's not really his fault either. I ultimately went with Butler because the heater are better team. Yeah. They would be by, if we don't put Butler on this list,

they would be by far the best team without a representative, which is tough. I don't really subscribe to that like the heat need a guy in here, but it is hard to look at them in the standings and say, how do we not find room for somebody? Yeah. And the Raptors have been pretty awesome of late. They're now in the fifth spot over the Chicago Bulls.

And so to a certain extent, you have to recognize, if you're going to recognize DeMar D'Rosen's effect on winning in Chicago, you probably have to also say Pascal Seacom has been pretty important there too. But I don't know. I think the sheer fact that the heat might win the East, and they don't have a single player here is pretty tough to reconcile. It's tough. But, was, you seem like a Seacom skeptic.

No. Look, I like Pascal. I just, to me, it's Jimmy and, and, um, DeMar de Rosen for me. Like, I just think, look, the isolation numbers are compelling. He's, like,

isn't he in, like, the top five in this positional category? Like, he's one of the most ISO-heavy guys on a team that doesn't have a lot of shot creation and has to make their bones on defense and just scraping together good possessions. I just, to me,

Jimmy is just, you know, objectively been a better player this season. He's been a better player his whole life. And, Damar, like, one of the coolest stories in the NBA this year. What he's done in the clutch, and I know he's cooled off recently, just, again, some people might say his mid-range shooting

has been fluky this year. I don't know. Those things seem to be hitting the bottom of the freaking net. Not even touching anything more times than not. And the Bulls have been such a great surprise this year. I got to give it. to Damar and Jimmy Butler. But I don't think Pascal is,

I don't find the notion to be absurd. You know, I think he's deserving of consideration, but for me, no. And maybe, you know, maybe I'm a star fucker. You know, I tend to like my guys who do this all the time, man.

I really do. Like, I really truly feel that way. Well, it hurts to pick this way because Jimmy is awesome. I just keep coming back to the fact that all year along with the heat, the questions have been,

what is their half-court offense going to look like in games that matter? What does it look like in the fourth quarter? Spoiler alert, not great a lot of the time. And that's a team that has shooters. That's a team that has really good supporting players. That's movement. That has intelligent veterans.

It should be easier. And yet, Jimmy hasn't always been that guy for them to the extent that they put the ball in Tyler Hero's hands a lot of times to close games in a way that it's like, well, Jimmy's our star. and I think he's absolutely a star. Star level impact,

unconventional gain that lends itself to that kind of thing. But what are we rewarding him for if we're kind of giving him that star bump? When Pascal, to me, has a higher degree of difficulty job on that team. That is a team that does not have spacing.

The Raptors are all over the place, all over each other. He's in the middle of the floor, making things happen, hitting new highs as a playmaker this year. He's an all defense candidate as well as Jimmy, so they kind of neutralize each other there.

I'm just, like, for me, it's very close. to the point that Pascal playing so much more nudges him a little bit into the lead for me. So any other honorable mentions before we wrap this? Any other guys that you left off that you're kicking yourself over?

I mean, I think there would have been interesting conversation about Draymond if he had been healthy the whole year. Yeah. And just like for a defensive player of the year. Other than that? Yeah, I mean, for me, it's Rudy and Bam at the center position because I don't think Carl Towns is materially better.

than both for those guys. It's just what he does to prop up that offense in Minnesota is amazing. You know, just what he's doing from the outside, you know, consistently beating these big dudes off the dribble. Like, his dribble penetration game doesn't get a lot of love. And from that position to be, because, you know,

remember back in the days, Joel would be all the way at the three-point line because the second best player in his team couldn't shoot. outside of four feet. And sometimes he would try to dribble all the way to the hoop and just would be turnover prone. Or he'd try to kick it out after dribbling. And it would just be these nasty turnovers.

And Joella is one of the best most skilled big men we have. Carl Town is a master at the shot fake, getting guys off to their feet, getting them off balance and getting to the cup and producing. So I just think offensively he's just been transcended. But again, BAM and Rudy are guys that I think that's just right there, if not better than this dude. if I'm picking a team and I need a center for it,

yeah, I'm probably looking at those other two. I have a question for both of y'all. James Harden is going to be 30... He's going to be 33 years old at the start of next season. Will he make another All-NBA team? Again, he's made eight All-N-Ba teams in total, six straight first teams. Will he make another All-N-B-A team

before his career is done? I think he could make a third team. I think James Harden, perfecting the version of himself going forward. Sort of like how LeBron had to recalibrate this version of himself, the more groundbound version of his game. He recalibrated it, you know, post-ups and whatever, although he didn't post-up frustratingly this whole year.

But, like, you know, sometimes you have to recalibrate what your new body and skills are. And I think Hardin is such a smart-ass player. He can redefine what his game is and be, deadly efficient at that new definition. And it's not going to be as effective as it was when he was winning MVP's, and you could slot him in the first team, all-MBA, or second team every single year.

But I think I could see a version of this guy being third team worthy for sure. And in the same way Chris Paul has, right? Like the best smartest players have done it. Let's see after an offseason where he has a chance to get his hamstring right, because that's the big question. Yeah. Right? if he can come back fully healthy and in shape,

like I could see one more pretty big season and then the Sixers will have to pay four more years of a max contract in order to just have that one season, but, you know, that's for later. Yeah, I'm just looking at these teams, and I see Luca, I see Jha, I see Tray, I see Devin Booker.

To me, those guys are going to be in the running for a lot of all NBA spots over the next three and four years. And that's not even to mention other guards we haven't even talked, like, you know, Kyrie Irving in a full season. Dame Lillard back in healthy, other guys who are going to compete for those spots.

Garland, Lamello Ball, other young players who are going to be on the come-up. It's getting tight. It's getting tight really fast for James Hard to squeeze in a couple more all-N-B-A teams. Well, hopefully we won't have to fit in a otherwise undeserving center and we can get all of those guys into the team,

unlike this year. Let's wrap it there. We'll be back next week with plenty of Lakers fake trades just for Rob. Christ. And maybe some commentary on the play in results. We'll be back next week. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We'll see them.