The Ringer NBA Show - A Reflection on LeBron James' Miami Heat Career With Tom Haberstroh | Weekends With Wos

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

Wos sits down with Meadowlark Media's Tom Haberstroh, to analyze and reflect on LeBron’s career following his record-breaking performance to become the NBA's all-time scoring leader. They take a deeper dive into his time at with the Miami Heat and more profound moments throughout his career.  Host: Wosny Lambre Guest: Tom Haberstroh Producer: Jade Whaley Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe.

Watch out for mouth tendrils and follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Back, ladies and gentlemen, to the latest edition of weekends. I'm your host, Big Waz, aka Wazney Lambray, and I'm joined by a very, very, very special guest. You've heard this guy on ESPN's airwaves over the years, writing for them, stats guru. You've read his stuff in Bleacher. I'm sure you've heard him on Metal Art Media with Dan Lebertard and Crew. handsome Tom Havistro.

What's going on, brother? Hey, it's going well, man. I played pickup hoops this morning. I'm feeling good. I'm telling you, man, we had a 6 a.m. run. You are a madman. Yo, I airballed my first layup. I haven't played in a year, okay?

So I airballed my first layup. And I had, it was the first time I was with these guys, right? So you know when you're playing pickup and you got like a few possessions to kind of set the tone about what kind of game? Right. And I had a floater in the lane right off the cup, and I'm just like airballed it straight up. And I think I heard someone go, who brought this guy?

Yeah. So if you watch the first game that Kyrie played with Dallas, a lot of his teammates were looking at him in amazement that he could just hop in and just do what he was doing. Not me. Not me. Except the opposite. Yeah.

Your new teammates were looking at you like, what in the world have we gotten ourselves into? Yes, yes. So my hamstrings are already hurting. This wasn't yesterday. This was this morning and I'm already sore. This is the life of a washed human being. That's why I don't even hoop.

Like to do cardio, just get me to the treadmill. Get me to the mythical. That's good enough for me. I'll get my heart rate up, get a sweat going. I can't be running up and down, jumping with people. I got an invite for All-Star weekend for like an open run for media. I've been staring at that thing for about nine days now. I'm just like, yeah, this is not going to have.

Anyway, man, I wanted to get you up here because you were part of the legendary, legendary heat index crew over at ESPN.com. We'll get into the formation of the heat index and all that was around it. But I wanted to have you on because I feel like this is a very special week in the career of LeBron James. And I wanted to do a sort of reflection on that. But specific to the four years in Miami, which is what I feel like, you know how like college kids go to college and they become radicalized and it like sort of shapes their lives and their worldview. I feel like that was the hoops version of what happened to LeBron in Miami, right? Like 2016 can't happen. The bubble championship can't happen.

If he doesn't go through what he went through in Miami in the way that he did. So I want to get into that. But first, because we had such a chaotic deadline, I feel like I would be derelict in my duties as an NBA podcaster if I didn't talk to you about the KD deal because everybody was surprised. Everybody was blown away. Everybody's pretty excited about the potential of what it could be.

I have my own thoughts, but I want to hear how you feel about KD to Phoenix, man. Yeah, I need to get on the West Coast. I don't know about you, but like. I woke up. I woke up to that news and I was like, damn, I totally missed this. Like totally missed all of the bluster and the, oh my God,

reaction on Twitter. And I feel like I got to get over to the West Coast. I'm not going to say it's the best coast yet. But after that experience of waking up to see the news, I kind of had a little bit of envy of you, wise that you made the trip. Before you go on, so the trade gets leaked to Wogan Shams at, like,

It had to be around like 1.15 a.m. Eastern Standard time. And I was sitting next to my girl and I was like, motherfuckers can't even go to sleep at 1 a.m. during the trade deadline. Like, you can't even go to sleep at 1 a.m. like, you're not doing a good enough job at your job as an NBA reporter. If you go to sleep at 1 a.m. during the trade deadline. That was the first. I was just like, this is a crazy time for this to leak. But yes, go on Tom. Yeah, it was crazy.

And so I was able to kind of like look back at the reactions in real time and just kind of assess what the narrative was or what the prevailing thought was. And I was trying to come up with a hot take because that's what we do in this business is when everybody's going zinging, you got to zag a little bit because then you're just going to be part of the entire washed out, you know, symphony of it's a great. trade or the symphony of, oh, Ross is terrible. So I was like trying to seek a nuanced take that would be different from what I thought was widely an encouraging feedback on that trade from the Phoenix side. And I got to say, the time could never have been better for the Phoenix Suns to pounce on Kevin Durant. We'll talk about the new ownership, Matt Ishpia, coming in and wanting to make a splash, right? Like Mikhail Prokerov did in. in Brooklyn.

We have a bunch of examples of that over throughout history of the NBA where they come in. ARO. AROD. AROD. In them in Minnesota, just this summer. Exactly, right? So we have a lot of history on that front. So you got the new ownership who's very eager to get this deal done to get KD.

KD wanted to go there, right? And third, look at the West. Yeah. The Western Conference, arguably, has never been. been more open. Since I've been covering this sport, it hasn't been more open. And I actually looked at this was sports odds history.com actually has betting odds going back to, I think, 2010.

And I was looking to see, like, has there ever been a Western Conference favorite that had longer odds than the Denver Nuggets going into the All-Star break? And I couldn't find one. Wait, is Denver, does Denver have the best odds to win the championship this year? No, it's Boston. Oh, okay. I'm saying in the Western Conference. I'm sorry.

Yeah, before the trade, yes. Before the trade. So it wasn't Memphis or Golden State or the Clippers. It was Denver. And, you know, people are still warming up to the idea of Yokic as being a championship, finals contender, finals favorite. And so, like, if you're looking, Matt Ishbia and James Jones and Chris Paul and Devin Booker looking around, and Moni Williams are saying, who are we afraid of?

Like, if this doesn't pan out, okay, someone got hurt. Like the time is now to strike. There is no juggernaut warriors. LeBron James Lakers is over the hill, right? So like you look at the West and you say, this is the time. And yes, they give up McKell Bridges and they give up Cam Johnson. Yes, they gave up their entire wind depth to bring in KD. But KD is the ultimate wing.

So, you know, I don't have a huge problem with that. I don't have a problem with that. And I think the Chris Paul injury concerns are overblown. I think he left the most unreliable star in the game in Kyrie. and join Chris Paul, who, by the way, has played in 95% of his playoff games in his career. So, yes, he had a really bad series, second half of this series, at least last year, against Dallas. But against the Pelicans in the first round, he was great. And so I think when people talk about the risk of them falling apart and not being able to be healthy enough to win the championship, I hear that.

But I'm also looking at the situation and saying this was a no-brainer. Yeah, and of course, like, 10 out of 10 times you make this trade with your eyes closed, like the draft capital, the all, like, you know, Mikhail Bridges, who I love, I think is a great player. He's a full core fits alum, so shout out to Mikhail Bridges. But like, look, what they gave, they doled out in this trade is completely justified. I think if you're going to have critiques for this trade, which I happen to have a couple, it's one, I think this does open the door for their offense to be a lot.

less fluid and more one-on-one, which is things that happen anyway in the playoffs. I mean, KD's one of the greatest one-off. He's in the top five of one-on-one players, isolation players that have ever existed. And I think that's a concern. I think the offense is not going to be as, you know, as ball movement dominant, as fluid as it was before the trade, which may sound concerned trolley, but whatever. And then I think, like, Chris Ball has to be good. He can't just be there, right?

Against Dallas, he was just there. You say he finished, he's played in 95% of player games. That's true. But he was not the player that we saw him in the round before. So if Chris Ball is not good, I think these guys are imminently beatable, right? I think about Brooklyn last year, functionally, to my mind, and people can disagree with me. I think functionally, Devin Book and Kyrie Irvin do the same thing. Devin Booker is, you know, he's made himself a materially better defense.

player than Kyrie is, even on his best nights these days, but functionally, as offensive players, they're the same guy. And even if you say KD's just as great as he was last year, to me, that cancels out. And then I think Claxton is a better player than Aiton. I really do. I really do. I think he's just a straight-up better player than Aiton is. And so, you know, that's where I look at the X factor, if you will, to get talk radio on your I think the X factor is definitely Chris Paul and his ability to be a difference maker. We got Todd here. Todd.

These people don't know about Big Todd. Big Todd. I think Chris Paul has to be a difference making. To be honest, if I were a betting man, I'd be taking the field in the West over Phoenix. Just because these guys haven't been together. They don't have the continuity. when it gets like in a game seven would you take really in your heart of hearts take them against the warriors I most certainly would not I wouldn't know

man there's no fucking way I would pick these guys to be golden state you imagine how fun that would be that would be yeah I'm you know I'm wishing on a star that would be incredible if that could happen I was my buddies were texting me like hey what is like the pinnacle Western Conference matchup for the Western Conference finals Like what would be the most, the juiciest? And I'm like, I mean, it's easily Phoenix Golden State, right? Can you imagine we got like Sacramento, Denver? Sacramento's third in the West right now.

And I think they're knife on the odds to come out of the West. I don't see them as a serious threat to come out of there. But yeah, I think I think. Is this Chris Paul's best chance? I'm not talking about that. I don't think so, man. I think that Buck's team was so freaking beatable. And to me, they just.

blew it. They got all of these decrepit teams. They beat up on all these decrepit teams on the way. They finally played a team that was like basically whole, but not like, you don't look at that Bucks team is like, wow, what a team, right? Like, these one championship teams, and I think the Bucks still have a chance to win another championship, but you don't look at them as, you know, the Dallas team that beat the Hedels that we're going to talk about or the, you know, the Spurs team from 24th.

Like, you don't see them as, like, a really excellent team. I think that was an incredible chance. This is the best chance since then. But like I said, man, the Booker groin injury, that's an injury that's going to linger. The only way to get a groin, right, is to not play. You know, what's interesting about that was is, like, he came back on a Tuesday. They had a game on Thursday, and they sat him on Thursday. Yeah.

You usually see back-to-back, second night's a back-to-back. they're going to rest the guy. But they rested him after they got him back after the trade. Like a lot of excitement around the team. It's Super Bowl week. There's the waste management. Phoenix is hopping right now. And they're going to sit Devin Booker because of injury management on a Thursday night.

And that just, you know, that spoke to me the seriousness, the severity of that injury and the concern long term for them. But again, I'm looking at the Western Conference. I'm looking at the new ownership. I'm looking at KD being like number one on my list. is Phoenix. All of these forces that play, we are going to nitpick the fact

that McHall Bridges might be the most high volume three point corner three point shooter. He does so many great things. He's never missed a game in his career. He's an underrated score. So I think the real, I know we want to talk about KD and Phoenix,

but I kind of love the Brooklyn Nets now. Is that, is that, am I wrong to like want to watch them every single night? Yeah, I think they're going to be, when everybody plays, I think they're going to be a really fun and interesting squad. And, you know, I think they're going to get after it. They're going to be, they're going to give people a run in the playoffs

because they're headed to the playoffs, right? And, you know, they're completely starless. And I always harking back to that Tibbs team where Nate Robinson was the best player on the team offensively anyway. And they're going to be interesting. But, yeah, the Phoenix thing, you know, I hate being that guy. I was like, well, what about the depth? I mean, the depth is going to matter.

but for them to win, their guys, their three guys have to be exceptional. And it's not that they're incapable of doing that, but that's what it's going to take. Yeah. And I think KD, part of the reason why they pounced on this

was because I think CP can't do the things he used to do. And so they need him to shoulder the load a lot more, like KD to shoulder the load. And so Chris Paul can just, man, he can just cook in the mid-range, he can set up the offense, he can scramble on defense.

and that's what they, I think he had five blocks or five steals and two blocks the other night. And I'm like, damn. Like, he's 37 years old and he still got that next level to him defensively. So we'll see come playoff time, they were hunting him. And it was just sad to see as a weight guy myself to see CP kind of targeted like that last year. And then when you, when you incorporate the fact that, like, we just had LeBron James get his, his milestone, his record, the Kareem record. and you had a lot of talk about, you know, the Lakers winning that championship in 2020. I'm sitting here.

I'm like, what is the big milestone left or the big talking point that's left and it's C.P. winning a ring. That is not the number one thing. But, man, I want him to get it. I think he's got a great chance. And I want him to get it just to quiet the Stugats's of the world who would just think he's a total fraud. Well, he's never going to have a ring. He's definitely not going to get a ring in Stugats' personal record.

No, Chase. And K.D. And K. And K. You're not going to get a ring. You're not going to get it. Sorry. Superstar chasing, can't do it.

Sorry, Katie. It's amazing that take. Think about that take. It's a great take. Chris Paul is such a fraud that he doesn't deserve a ring if he wins the title. But KD also doesn't deserve to win a ring because he's joining up with CP. Right. Wouldn't their collective fraudulents make the ring that much realer that they're doing it with one another?

But, yeah, we got to get two gods on the show to figure out that math. Yes. But yeah, and there's no. you know, there's no easy way to transition to this time, but I do, I got to talk to you about LeBron, the scoring record, but I want you to take the listeners back because 2011 or excuse me, 2010 was a long ass time ago. But yeah, take people back to 2010, what you were doing before and how you found out that you would be on this brand new beat called The Heat and decks.

So I was a baseball guy who watched the NBA and was like, how come there aren't like saber matricians nerding out over basketball? I play basketball. I love basketball. I was actually growing up more of a college hoops fan, UNC fan. Of course. Very white of you. But yeah, go ahead.

I think I rooted for. College hoops over NBA guy. There's literally nothing wider than that. So I rooted for the Raptors for a while because of Vince Carter. Of course. I got the Pumas because of Vince Carter. When he, I think I got the green ones. Do you remember those?

They were like, yeah. So I was, I was an NBA fan to the extent that like I knew basketball and I knew that there were, you know, John Hollinger and Kevin Peltin doing kind of advanced stats on the NBA. But outside of that, it wasn't mainstream. No, not at all. And so I started. And John Hollinger was stuck behind a goddamn pay. Wall, ESPN Insider. You had, like, the OG media paywall was ESPN insider.

Nowadays, like, the whole subscription model is ubiquitous. But back then it was just like, God damn, I can't get these PR updates without paying ESPN extra? That's how it works. I mean, aren't you a believer in paying people for their work? Of course, 100%. Right. And I paid for that ESPN insider.

Sure you did. Okay. So I was coming up as on like an ESPN researcher. So I was the guy who went like Cindy Brunson or Scott Van Pelt or what have you anchor, SportsCenter anchor needed like a stack quick. Oh, hey, the Mariners just beat so-and-so. What's the latest stat to show, to put on SportsCenter? And I'd like type it up, send it over.

And that was my job at ESPN. And then I was a researcher for Chris Broussard. I was a researcher for Rick Bucke. over at the magazine. And I remember my, my editor just being like, hey, Tom, like, you're good at the numbers side of things, but do you ever try, like, writing? Do you want to write? And I was like, sure. So I tried writing. And I think one of my first articles was about how like Chauncey Billups, not Marcus Camby was the defensive player of the year because of his on-court, off-court ratings, which is a big reach. A stretch. Yeah. But a big, a bit of a stretch. But the point was, I was,

I had this like trove of on court, off court, what is that? You know, this is 20, this is 2009, right? The number one website in like nerd NBA world was 82games.com, shouts to Roland Beach, where it was like, man, there's this trove of data that no one really seems to be using. So I got a call from Kevin Arnowitz after I wrote a few articles and he was like, would you consider moving down to Miami to cover LeBron James? Hold up, hold up, hold on. And I'm like, I'm in a shitty little apartment in Weatherstfield, Connecticut, and you're going to pay me? I would pay you large sums of money to cover that team.

And Arniewicz called me and said, you want to do it. Yeah. So, you know, just to bring people up to speed, of course, obviously people know the summer of 2010, LeBron James does his TV special with Jim Gray, the famous. the famous purple checkered button up taking my talents to South Beach causes a whole shit storm. The vitamin water bookshelf. Remember the vitamin water bookshelf? Of course. Kanye West was at the Boys and Girls Club. We all remember the decision. It was like basically what I call the big bang of the modern NBA. Like everything about the league today flows out of LeBron and the decision.

KD. forcing his way to Phoenix and before that to Golden State. state and all these different things that we've seen in the NBA, this whole idea of quote unquote player empowerment and all that of the jazz. It flows out of the decision. And obviously it's like huge deal. And so ESPN decides they're going to dedicate a team of writers just to the heat. And ESPN, of course, is a national media company. But like, people were like confused at the time.

No, they're mad. They were angry. Talk about this, please. Was, they were angry, straight up. Straight up. So to take you back into a time capsule here, at that point, ESPN had kind of gone into the regional. Like, there was ESPN in New York. There's ESPN Dallas.

There's ESPN Chicago. And they sent writers, they plucked writers from the newspapers and had them cover. So basically beat guys, yeah, for ESPN, yeah. There was no ESPN Miami. Right. Okay. So the model was, okay, we got to set up ESP in Miami first to justify hiring four writers, four NBA writers to cover one team. Yes.

But they just said, screw that. Let's just do a bureau. I remember Kevin calling it a bureau. He's like, this is a dream job of mine. It's just to be the Miami Heat like bureau. The bureau chief of the Miami Heat coverage. So for people to understand it's like the New York Times, we're. which is, you know, the ESPN of real news, right?

They have people in places like Hong Kong. And that office is just, this is who gives New York Times news in Hong Kong. And there's a bureau chief and there's a dedicated staff, basically a New York Times auxiliary in somewhere like Hong Kong. You guys were the Miami Heat. Auxiliary. The Bureau covering LeBron James in this crazy story. story in Miami. And I remember, and it was justified. I think actually 10 writers would have

justified, Muaz. How, how captivating was that team? So I'll say this. I would say I was a general sports fan in 2010, right, before the decision. I was a huge NBA fan probably still, yeah, NBA was number one, but not far behind the NBA was the NFL, college football, college basketball, baseball, like I followed these sports. I would read, you know, ESPN and Sports Illustrated and different stuff, following all of this stuff. I played freaking NCAA football on Xbox incessantly. So I was like obsessed with college football.

Of course, the NFL, even back then, of course, was big dogs and number one in America. But like, LeBron leaving Cleveland, joining D. Wade and Chris Bosch in the way that he did, the shit storm that it caused, like, that story just captured my imagination. I just became a one sport person. I literally, I know I'm doing this job right now because of the decision and the interest that it sparked in me in the NBA and specifically this LeBron story. And so, 2010 was the first year I bought League Pass so I could watch the heat every single game.

Like, it was just, it was just an insane story. It was insane. The NBA was leading ESPN. Like, you can't beat the NFL for anything these days. And the LeBron thing just took it because people were so angry that this guy had the audacity to switch teams in free agency and do it on a TV program, which, by the way, drew 10 million views. That's the thing that people always, that always kills me about decision critique. But it's like, how dare this guy do a new special for his free agency? I'm like, 10 million people watch.

Did you watch? It was justified. Like everybody watched this shit. Everybody remembers where they were as if it was like the Kennedy assassination. Yep, yep. I was sitting next to my then-girlfriend now wife and being like, holy, like this really just, he really just stabbed Cleveland in the back on national television. This is going to rock everything we know about sports, everything we know about the NBA.

It is going to be huge. And she's like, wow, that is pretty crazy. I actually like that shirt. That shirt is pretty nice. I think I have a gingham purple gingham shirt in my closet right now, particularly because of the decision. So like,

was, when you talk about how captivated you were about this story, it had cultural impacts, it had basketball experiment. Yeah. Implications. Like, how are they going to make this thing work? Like, that was Arnowitz,

who was like my guy, right? He was like... Shout to Kevin Arnivitz. A legend, legend in the game. game, if you want to talk about somebody who is foundational to the way the NBA is covered right now, when you see people sticking video examples to show you what they're describing and something like picking road coverage or like, this is why this guy's always doing an Iverson cut or X, Y, and Z. Kevin Arnovich pioneered that shit.

One hundred percent. Pound for pound, the best NBA writer I've ever read. He's so good. Literally. And narrative stuff, he was incredible. explaining to you the story of the NBA and then of course he could marry the numbers with the best of them.

Kevin Arnavitz is a fucking legend. Keep going. So he got down there and he's like, Tom, I just want you to explain the basketball experiment. Just try to capture this in numbers and in words, what's happening?

What are we watching? Pull away all the bullshit and the sheen and all of the blowhards and the skip bailiffs of the world. If you remember, Skip Bayless was on air, on ESPN, calling Chris Bosch Spice because of how soft, quote-unquote, his game was. And that was okay back then. Remember, a different time, right? And so we sought me, Brian Winhurst, Michael Wallace, and Kevin Arniewicz and I, the four of us went down in Miami.

And Brian Winters lived in Cleveland at the time, and he moved to Miami for a year. It lasted one year and he was like, get me out of here. Was, it was the first locker room that I had ever been in. Wow. That's amazing. Dude, what do you remember about your first, like, locker room experience with the, and this is, again, it's just hard to explain. Like, these guys were literally seen as villains. There's no villainy in the NBA.

We like everybody now. Although Memphis is working on it. They're doing their best to become a hated group. Not even like a drop in the bucket compared to this team. Legitimately like games in Utah, the Utah Jazz never had a chance of getting LeBron. He didn't spurn them. He didn't whatever. The heap of playing Utah, the whole crowd just hated them.

So tell us about going into that locker room for the very first time. So Brian Winhurst would put his arm around my shoulder. and just be like, Tom, this is not normal. Like what you're about to experience is not normal. We go on the floor. It's Boston, in Boston, right? And it's the first game of the season. And I was introduced like that day.

I remember we did DDL, Daily Dime Live with Zach Harper. And we're sitting there and like that, it's like the fastest chat room you've ever seen pre-Twitter, right? And Tim Frank, who's the head communications guy at the NBA, he's on. the floor with me and Brian and Brian just like, so how many media people are here for the opening game of the season? And Tim Frank just like looks him dead in the eye. And he's like, this is more than a finals game. Wow. This is more than like the NBA finals was there for LeBron's first game with the Miami Heat. And I remember D. Wade had a bad game and people were like, this is it. They'll never win one. One game in. One game in. And I remember the wolves were.

were out. Like, they were, they were looking for blood as soon as, like, the first week, the first week of the season, even LeBron, there are whispers. LeBron's trying to get Spow fired. The shoulder bump, we remember the shoulder bump. The shoulder bump, which may or may not have been intentional, that they downplayed at the time. But like, yeah, we got to keep this moving. So I just remember, I was sleeping on an air mattress in an apartment in Miami Beach, never sleeping because it was nonstop. The coverage was nonstop. It was there was this quote,

this pundit said something crazy about it. We need to cover it. Like why they're stupid. What did LeBron do in the clutch? Is Carlos Arroyo going to be their starting point guard or should be Mario Chalmers? Big Z, like Big Z's coming aboard. Like is Eric Damp?

Like these storylines, you couldn't get enough. James Jones. Like Mike Miller, is he going to play? Udonis has like all this was so big and it all revolved around one big question which hadn't been answered.

Can LeBron James win the big one? Right. Which seems absurd to even ponder today because he's done so much fucking winning and 8 straight finals and all this craziness. But like it was seen as a legitimate question. And, you know, the team started 9 and 8. I remember they started 9 and 8 and, you know, the sky was falling. But I don't remember if it was you or if it was KP.

I think Hollinger might have still been writing. That might have been the last year that Hollinger was still writing. I don't remember. But somebody was just like, look, they've got the best defense in the NBA by far. A lot of this stuff is they're losing close games. And winning or losing close games often is random noise. So it doesn't mean anything. The numbers are sound.

This team is really good. And like, I remember reading that and breathing the breast of first year because, of course, I was rooting for LeBron. I was like, this is, I want to see this guy succeed in all of this because this is freaking nuts. You know, Jersey burning and all of this. And again, like, games in Memphis, teams that have nothing to do with LeBron, not the conference. There's no natural rivalry.

Their fans were frothing at the mouth when the heat came to town. So I want to ask you, Tom, like, if you can't even remember, what was your impressions of LeBron in those very early days? What was like the measure that you took of LeBron in that early Miami fire, pardon the pun? People don't remember this now because LeBron is such a like lovable character now and just strive for greatness and just all like he's he's a he's a lot more positive now than he was back then. So back then because the heat were so hated like people were rabid when they were rabid when they. talked about the Miami Heat. I mean, it was so...

The takes were just scorching. There was no measured response to anything involved in the heat. So I was supposed to be the tonic to that, right? I was supposed to be the one to be like, yo, LeBron's clutch numbers are actually outrageous. Like, if we look at his playoff career numbers, like, he's got way more game winners than you think.

He shoots way better field goal percentage than Kobe or D. Wade or whoever it is. And this is just crazy talk. And I do... It might not have been my article that you really. read, but I read, I wrote one that was showing LeBron's clutch numbers. I remember the comments just being like, get this nerd out of here with this calculator. I'm like, yeah, like, I could write out, do you want to watch the film off these game winners? Do you want to watch, like, does that help you? And I was, a lot of my role was like truth squatting, the narrative that LeBron didn't have an in him

to win a title. And so I remember he was fighting back against all this vitriol. And he was, a different person. And Brian Winters, he would just look at me like in the most Brian way after LeBron had like a press conference where he was just very like evil. Like he, he wanted to be the heel that year. He wanted to lean into that I'm the most hated guy and y'all are crazy and I'm going to lean into it. And Brian just looked at me. He's like, I don't know who that guy is. Wow. Like I don't know who he is. Yeah. Because up until then, he's always been a sunny guy. A very sunny guy. disposition. Remember the calves where they would take those pictures on the sideline to family

photos? Danny Green with the dancing and yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It was all fun. It was all joy. It was all like smiley and all this and just absorbing a lot of positivity and giving it out. And this Miami Heat team was different. And so LeBron did a lot of growing up that year because of the media reaction. I think he wore that on his sleeve and he was so consumed by that negativity. I don't know how one hears all that negativity and not be affected by it, that it all came crashing down against Dallas in the finals. And you were talking, you were rooting for LeBron. I think for my career I was rooting for LeBron.

So here's what I remember about that. I remember the playoffs, of course. I remember they kicked, you know, they quickly dispatched the Celtics, Rondo with the elbow, D. Wade. That was a dirty play by D. Wade. There's no two ways about it. it. Dee Wade dragged the guy down.

I probably defended him. Yeah, but yeah, he ruined Rondo's elbow. They got rid of Boston in like five games. The Bulls actually had the number one seed in the East. The Heat ended up winning something like 58 games. It was an incredible pace for a team that got slapped together this summer before. The Bulls and D. Rose and the fraudulent MVP that he won and all of that. They play them in the conference finals.

And, you know, LeBron, he was pretty good on offense. Like it's LeBron, he's never going to be bad, but his defense was just, he would guard D. Rose, man. He would guard D. Rose at the end of games on an island by himself. The guy that just won the MVP and would just strap him up. It was just like, yo, D. Rose, like, I'm just as athletic as you, but I'm way huger. There's nothing you can do about this. And I just remember being like, yeah, oh, the, the Bulls is the toughest, the toughest test. This Dallas thing is going to be a fucking breeze, right?

And I remember the moment when that series changed. I know when it happened. It was, I think that would have been game three. I think it was game three where LeBron drives. And I'll never forget, he gave a left-hand pass to Chris Bosch, who made the game-winning shot. And in the press conference, like LeBron, you know, he had a pretty good game, didn't drop 30 or whatever.

And was it Greg Doyle? I forget who it was who asked him, but it was just like, why are you deferring? Like, what's going on? Like, basically, like, you're not playing well enough. And I just remember LeBron's reaction to that statement was, like, we just won the game. I had the game winning assists. And this guy, it clicked for LeBron.

Like, this shit is not, winning this series is not going to be enough. It's not. And he stopped playing well directly after that. Like, and I think the storyline out of LeBron, breaking the scoring championship, Tom. I think the reason why it's an important one because in that moment, I think LeBron understood that, like,

that's not my game. Going out and scoring 40 is not something that I do. So if that's the standard that people want for my championship to be legitimate, I'm not going to be able to do that. So people would always point to the Detroit series as like, yes, he can't. Like, yes, he can't.

And it's almost, you're a product of your own success or your your the problem is that you have done it before and this always happens with lebron and the national narrative is like you've done this before we've seen you do this before so we know you're capable of it why don't you do it every single time and it's as if michael jordan jordan james never had a bad game right it's as if lebron james was not allowed to have a bad game or not allowed to pass the ball in late game situations yeah he passed the ball for a game winner to Chris Bosch, a guy making more money than him, by the way, that season. Obviously not a better player, but like he gave it to an all-star player to finish.

And that wasn't good enough. But I think to me it spoke to a certain mentality that LeBron's always had where it's like, you know, it's almost he's, he's always calculating what the right play is given the environment, right, given who my teammates are, who I'm playing against. and he had not yet made those calculations on the heat. On a possession by possession basis, like there was no hierarchy or order to what the heat were doing on offense.

And LeBron knew that. He knew they were flying by the seat of their pants on offense and he just didn't have a comfort with it about ownership. And you think you fast forward to like game six in 2016 in the finals, the one where him and Kairis dropped like four. or something stupid like that. And if you rewatch that game, like, this is a guy in full command of everything. He knows exactly what to do, exactly where to be, exactly where to position people on

every single, literally every possession, right? And that he just didn't possess that in year one in Miami. And I think it got into his head. And that's why he just failed. He was just unsure of himself. And I want to hear you talk about this, Tom. But I do want to say this for people because I want to be transparent. This is Weekends with Wives.

We've got to be transparent on the show. After they lost game six to Dallas and it was just so clearly, obviously a failure. Like LeBron had justified every single critique that had ever been levied upon him. When I tell you, first of all, one, I didn't sleep that night. Like, you would have thought that I bet my house on this or something like I didn't sleep that night. Two, my favorite thing to do that whole postseason was to turn on first take and watch it the night after the heat won, a game or series. I would always turn it on after. You're like a Republican watching like Rachel Maddow or like Democratic.

Yes, I watched Fox News the night Obama got elected in 2012, though. But anyway, I did not watch ESPN for, I want to say, two weeks. And I'm telling you, Tom, I watched ESPN all day every single day in those days. I didn't watch ESPN for two weeks. I straight up just didn't. I straight up never watched first take again. Like, just, I just quit first tape.

Have you ever believed or have you ever stand for an athlete or a team harder than LeBron at that moment going into the finals? I don't think I, I don't think I've, I mean, I know you was. and I knew you because of LeBron. Like, you were such a LeBron fan and you were, you were like my spirit animal in like, I would write an article and you'd be like, yes!

Yes. Thank you. So the Andy Chavez Metz in 06 or 07 that broke my heart, Carlos Beltran, leaving the bat on his shoulder, I think that's like the only team experience, sport experience that I, felt as similarly invested in.

Like, that's the only thing that comes close. And so, like I said, it felt like a death in my family when LeBron lost in the way that he lost. And I remember, and my buddies were big LeBron fans, too. We were like the only people. And, you know, I remember wanting to quit. Just being like, yo, like, these people might be right. And my buddies, I remember my buddies talking me off the ledge. Like, there's just no way, like, this guy isn't who we know him to be.

And so, 2012 happens. But at the time, it really felt that way. It felt, especially in the summer. It just felt like, this guy's a fraud. Because I remember, and I said this before, but I really, I want to put a pin in this. Like, I really felt like part of my career hinged on LeBron winning that title. Not because, like, I was a heat fan, but because all of my work up until that point was, like, y'all are dumb. Yeah.

You know, like, you're not looking at this at the right way. You say he's not cluts But all of this data says otherwise And you're just ignoring the evidence This guy is if not the best player of all time The best player of this generation I don't care who it is He's gonna win multiple titles in Miami

If not five titles And you guys are all gibronies right That was my general ethos On covering that team for them And the heat index Because all the data said like This team think about that Like they were by far

they were an amazing defensive team and you can't point to one of those guys on the team would be like a defensive player of the air. It was so good. I mean, they would just blitz everybody and they would be able to run around. It was insane. It was crazy.

But I remember I watched Dallas celebrate on the floor in Miami. I was standing next to Dan Levitard and we both were just arms crossed. Like, couldn't believe what you were seeing. Shaking our heads. Like, is this? Because we all just assumed like,

Did we just witness? Like, what the fuck? Like, the JJ Barreya thing, I almost got in a fight with another writer. So I don't think I've ever told this story before. I'm new on the beat, right? And, like, I've got no credibility except for, like, I work for ESPN. So no one who's been on the NBA beat really knows who I am, except for, like, Brian and Kevin are like, Hey, man, this is Tom.

It's my little bro. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm in Dallas at the NBA finals. and LeBron is not posting up. He won't do it. Like, he won't score on J.J. Barreya. And you can't score on J.J. Barrea at that moment,

which is amazing that J.J. Berea congratulated LeBron James on the scoring title with a photo of him trying to back down J.J. Brayette. Because at the time, it was over. So when I tell you that I didn't get sleep that night, I kept replaying the, I kept replaying LeBron catching an entry bat. Passing out of, like, JJ's here. back him down and be like, I'm passing back in my mind over and over again, but yes, continue. And so I would be like, I wrote a column or something, I forget what it was, Mark Heisler,

who's an amazing person, an amazing writer, he's a Hall of Famer. Like, but he's older. He's old, right? He's like probably 70, 70 years old at the time around there. And I'm this 25 year old coming in here being like, LeBron's great. And he's got the clutch gene and all these things that he didn't believe. And I would be like, he's actually really efficient in the post. He's like, he's really efficient. He's a good post player. And he's like looking at me like, I'm speaking a different language.

He's like, what are you talking about? Are you not watching this? Yeah. And I'm like, he has the tools. He has the size. He has the skill. He can do this. And I have the data to prove it.

So I'm literally on like the writer's row next to Mark Heisler at the LA Times, who's a legend, right? And I'm pulling up synergy sports. and I'm like, look at this data. And he's like, are you kidding me? Such a nerd. Such a nerd. I'm like, look at this.

It says 1.4 points per position out of the post. And it ranks number three among 100 repulsive players. And he's like, yo, man, open your eyes and look at what's happening out here. And I'm like, you don't think I watch the games? He's like, I mean, what? And we like went at it. And I think Brian or someone had to separate us because it was getting like, because that's what LeBron brought out of people at the time.

at that time. LeBron brought out this like... Emotion. Primal thing that was just like... He made us feel something. That's why I love the guy. Like, as much as I love these new guys, like, like LeBron, like, he just struck a chord in people.

Love him or hate him. Like, he got people invested emotionally in what he was doing. So, you know, the disaster of 2011, all of that happens. Lockout short in season, 66 games, which, by the way, Tom, You've converted me. We need to shorten this season. We need to just do a round robin. Play every team home in a way.

Get this 82 game shit out of here. Whatever. I digress. I don't know, but the billionaires won't be happy with that, was. Are you sure you want to take money out the pockets? Whatever. I'm not even did.

These guys are supposed to be the smartest people on planet earth. They can't figure out how to still make money while making the product better. Okay. 2012 playoffs come up. And again, 2012 and 2011 are pivotal because of the J.J. Barreya's shit that happened at LaBavis. LeBron had egg on his face and all eyes on him in the playoffs. The Pacer series, I think it was, I think they was tied 1-1.

And in that game where him and D. Wade dropped like 40. That was like, okay, they're not going to lose to the Pacers. So I got a story about that. Yes. So LeBron James and D. Wade, they couldn't score. Chris Bosch got hurt, pulled an abdominal muscle. And I thought my career was over. Honestly, I was like, this is it.

like the heater are going to fold because Chris Bosch, big three, got hurt in the Boston series, and they can't, they can't function anymore. So they go down, or it's like 1-1, they can't score, they start Rony Turioff

and Eudonis Haslam in that series. And they're like, we got to do something else. And so Pat Riley and Eric's bolster is sitting, as they always do after games in the playoffs in one of their offices

or their hotel rooms and they open up a bottle of wine. And they're like, what do we do? We can't score. We can't score. Like, we're starting Roney to hurry off and UD, and we need to figure out a way to score. So Spoh goes, let's go small.

Let's go small. Instead of matching David West and Roy Hibbert for size for size, let's go small. And Pat was like, no, it's not going to work. And Spoh was like, all right, let's start Shane Badiye and Dexter Pitman in the next game. They got their asses handed to them. they lost by like 30

I feel like Dexter Pittman he played like five minutes it was an epic disaster and I remember Spoh looking at me after that game and being like we got him and I'm like what are you talking about? No you don't got him

and he's like he's very confident he's like we're going to start Shane Badiah again at the four go small spread the floor and we're going to win and they did that next game they continued having Shane Badiah

at the four LeBron and D. Wade combined for 70 points. It was like a whole new team. It was a whole new team. And it was like a Trojan horse. It was on a Sunday. I remember that game because it was on a Sunday because I remember I got on the phone with my boy because I had doubted.

And he was like, I told your ass this shit wasn't over. These dudes is finished. Watch. And then they finished them in six games. And of course, they played Boston in the conference final. No Chris Bosch for basically the whole series. I think he didn't come back until game five. And we didn't know that he was going to come back.

Right. Like he came back early. Chris Bosch is a warrior, man. Underrated that dude. He comes back. Paul Pierce hits that, you know, famous game winner in game five. He's talking all the shit. And we're at the crossroad moment again with LeBron, game six in Boston for the Hedles,

Big Three, for everything. Everybody's just like, he's going to fold just like he did against Boston. Just like he, first of all. we didn't even talk about the 2010 series against Boston where all of that weird shit happened and whatever. Then it was 2011 against Dallas, and everybody's just like, he's going to fold. He's going to fold.

He's not going to do it. He's going to get killed and, you know, probably the single greatest LeBron game, in my opinion. I don't care what nobody says was that game six where he just, he literally turned into a freaking alien. You know how like memes are always, There are a lot of memes out there that are taken out of context. Like, that's actually not how it went down, that photo that you just, you're meming everywhere.

That photo of LeBron at the line and looking up all evil. Looking like a predator. Yeah. Oh, my God was that accurate. He ripped their hearts out. Yeah. I remember reading Bill's piece because he was at the game. He flew to Boston for it.

He was just like, yeah, we're about to go to the finals. Like, we're done. We killed LeBron. We ended this guy. And I remember reading Bill's piece, and he was just like, this motherfucker, and literally, literally what you just say, he ripped everybody's soul out. Like, you just knew, like, five, six minutes into the game, like, he's not losing tonight. They go on to win game seven, which was a closer game that people remember. I remember Chris Bosch hit those big two corner threes.

And in an OKC, like, they lost the first game. Yes, people forget. They were down 0-1 to that young OKC team. To KD, James Hardin, Westbrook, Ibaka. And I remember them being really calm in the press conference afterwards. And just LeBron, like, what he did for the next four games, to me, that's like what birthed this, like he had became a new player. Like, he hasn't, basically since that series, the last two games in Boston and on, LeBron, before. Lose in the Phoenix in the playoffs, like last year or two years ago, whatever it was,

has never played a bad playoff series since. Literally. It's crazy. Literally. He's just been dominant every single playoff series after that. So that's why I feel like the heat shit is the line of demarcation in his career where it's just like talent and ability and know-how had finally sort of coalesced. And winning that championship in 2012, he just never.

never looked back. Even when he didn't play his best against San Antonio the next year, you know, people forget about what he did in the fourth quarter against like in game six. Like when his headband got knocked off and he just became the scariest player on the planet, you know, Ray Allen shot all of that. But I really do believe 2012 is the great divider in his career. It's like everything else that flows out of that can be informed by the embarrassment against Dallas, redemption against Boston, ultimately beating OKC and, you know, the rest

is history. I think it was you hit it on the head is the embarrassment of that Dallas series. It humbled LeBron James, and I use that word literally humbled him where he felt like he felt small. He felt, I remember Spote telling me one time he's like, I sat down LeBron James after that Dallas series and we just talked about basketball. And it was just, it was just like this cathartic, like, we need, we both needed that series to just reinvent everything, reinvent the whole thing, just to go back to the whiteboard and reinvent LeBron and the heat and everything around that. And that series you're talking about with OKC and Boston, it doesn't happen without the Dallas, humbled, just, I don't know what I'm doing out there in the biggest moments because what they did was they said, LeBron, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're.

Carl Malone out there. Like, you need to learn how to be Carl Malone sometimes. He's got to post guys. Yep. Learn how to post up guys. And more importantly, learn how to set screens and then roll to the rim. LeBron James has always been the air traffic controller being able to see everything. And one of the hard things for LeBron was, is to come to grips with the fact that when

he turns after the screen, he's no longer being able to see the floor. Yeah, he can't place every single defender. And that is so unnatural to him. he's never been in that position before. And so they had to learn that. And I remember Arniewicz writing a column where he found the data the most efficient pick and roll in the NBA at that time, far and away, not even close to anybody.

Bron and D. Wade. Braun and D. Wade. And they never ran it. They never ran it. And Spow would always wink, wink, nudge. Just wait. Wait to the playoffs. Wait to the playoffs.

And sure enough, LeBron James was more comfortable playing the four, playing, you know, screening and rolling. And he was completely unlocked at the post where if you threw a double, he's finding the open man instantaneously and crumbles the defense. So that that OKC series, you know, we talk about luck and championships and bad luck for LeBron. The good luck in that was actually adversity of Chris Bosch getting hurt. And that was an opportunity for them to realize they got to go small and have LeBron park himself on the corner, on the on the post. And then when Chris Bosch came back, they eventually started him and Badiere.

And then that just unlocked. The Heat had always had a sort of comically inefficient offense for the level of talent that they had. And then once they did that, they came back in 2012, 13. They're breaking records. They're doing all kinds of shit. They inverted Bosch and LeBron where Bosch would be, he'd be the center, but he'd be all the way out at the three-point line. And Brown would be posting guys up. Just incredible.

And like I said, I wanted to talk to you about the Heat today, the Heedles era. Because one, I'm still chasing that high. as an NBA fan. Yeah, man. I've never felt, I've never felt like that watching the NBA before or since. And I just think it's so pivotal to everything that LeBron has become

was those four years in Miami, the, you know, the Spurs series winning in 2013, all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, just the kind of leader that he's become out of it, like his comfortability around media springs out of finally winning those two championships. And like, like, the media person,

that he is now, he was not in 2012 and 2013. It's because of what happened in Miami that he became that person. And you were somebody who had a front row seat to all of that shit. I want to get you out of here. Just tell me what you remember about the two championships. It's things that stick out in your mind about the two Miami championships. You know, LeBron was, he was in a shell after that finals of 2011 and then kind of reinvented his game. the heat reinvented themselves.

Chris Bosch was a spacing five. And it kind of made everyone look at this situation and say, man, we had that, I mean, Carlos Arroyo and Big Z were starting. Dampier, Eric Dampier. It was very traditional. Mike Bibby, man. Mike Bibby, I wrote the column. And it was, Mike Bibby is the least productive postseason player in NBA history.

It was his P. P.E.R was the lowest PER in NBA history in the postseason. Spoh, stuck with him. Because it was like on paper, it made a lot of sense. a spacing, shooting, Mike Bibby, you know, veteran, All-Star, all this. And then he was just, he just couldn't shoot, couldn't shoot. And I remember the day he came to the heat,

he was like, yeah, I actually don't like open shots. I'd rather be contested. And I was like, oh, that's probably a bad sign on this team because you're going to get a lot of open shots. And so the 2013-2012 NBA championships was really about that team putting the finer point on who they are. And getting Ray Allen, Mario Chalmers, Udonus Haslam, Mike Miller.

The Richard Lewis thing was so, like that team, I think like six of their players retired after the 2014 series. Like, Richard Lewis was done. Shane Badiere was done. Ray Allen was done. Michael Beasley was out. He was in China after that. Like, there was a collective understanding that they were just toast, right?

I could not believe that LeBron left. I remember just being stunned that LeBron left after the fourth because I think I was drinking the Miami-Hea Kool-Aid. Like, I'll be honest. Like, they thought he was coming. Miami culture. You never do that. And honestly, Waz, like, I probably was listening to you too much at the time.

I could not imagine LeBron James reading that Dan Gilbert letter and ever going back to Cleveland. I remember when I read the freaking tweet that said that he was back. I was shocked. And Chris Sheridan, God bless him. He had reported it like days, if not a week before. But I was like, what the fuck the Sheridan? No. And I was still shocked when I read that he went back to Cleveland.

Cleveland, but like I said, I will always remember the Heedles era of Miami Heat just for the highs, the lows, just the raw emotion around that. We haven't had it since. And so, you know, we never go this long on this show time, but I could literally talk to you about this all day. But please tell people about Basketball Illuminati where they could find your stuff, brother. Yeah, Basketball Illuminati, Basketball Illuminati, Basketball Illuminati, we say it three times to keep our third I open on that program. It's a very different original NBA podcast where we tell you the truth about the NBA. And you are a truth teller was. You've been on the show. I appreciate you. I love you. This past week was a really fun one. We talked with Shams Tarania who actually broke a

trade, Miami Heat Trade, no less, on the air with us. So go listen to that. He is a machine. So yeah, basketball Illuminati. It's a really cool show. We love doing it. You can follow me on on Twitter at Tom Haberstro. And I will say this, Waz, I love you, man. And like the Miami Heat, the story of the Miami Heat cannot be told without you

because you lived and breathed that team more than anybody I know. And I was covering that team. Like, I was living and working on that team, but you were the LeBronologist. You and Brian Winhurst. For sure. Yeah, to the point where, like,

you know, like, I literally just became, I still wanted to see LeBron do well, but I was so much less invested once he went back to Cleveland. I was like, I don't care about this story. This isn't as cool. Like, it's just not as cool. It's not as interesting. It's not as, you know, experimental. But yeah, I appreciate you saying that, man.

And obviously, you're my brother. I appreciate you coming on the show today. Yes, that's our show for today. Make sure you're locked into the ringers NBA feed. Of course, we got group chat on Wednesday, real ones, the new Austin Rivers. podcast, which is already classic, The Answer with Syri and Kyle. Just keep it locked with the ringer for all things NBA. Of course, we will see you guys next week. Peace.