The Ringer NBA Show - A Tale of Two Hot Seats: The Fractured Grizzlies and the Dismal Clippers (Ep. 169)

Episode Date: November 29, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor parse the falling out between Marc Gasol and David Fizdale (1:16) and debate whether the Memphis Grizzlies should tank (15:34). Then they review the implications of the surging Pistons’ win against the Celtics (45:19), wonder how the San Antonio Spurs keep winning without Kawhi Leonard (51:02), and speculate as to what the latest Blake Griffin injury could mean for the Los Angeles Clippers’ future (52:49). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is JJ Reddick. You may know me as a basketball player. You may have seen me play during my college career at Duke University, or perhaps over the past decade playing in the NBA for the magic, the bucks, the clippers, or the Sixers. Well, today I'm here to tell you about my new show, the JJ Redick podcast on the Ringer podcast network. This is where you can find me interviewing athletes like my current teammate, Joelle and Bede, as well as in-depth conversations with celebrities like the late-late show host, James

Gordon. The very first episode goes live later this week, so make sure to subscribe to the JJ Reddick podcast wherever you get your podcast. The Ringer NBA show, I'm Chris Vernon, and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Brien, A.k.k.a. Kevin O'Bomber is coming after me. Berno, you saw it a little down today. The Obama is coming after me. All right, so yesterday, NBA news hit right where I am on a regular basis with the Memphis Grizzlies firing David Fisdale.

When you saw the news, I want to know, what was your initial reaction? Well, it was like on Sunday night after Gasol said the things that he did, I tweeted you, like, blow it up, question mark, or something like that. And it started that big discussion. But so when the news broke, it was shocking. because it wasn't necessarily anything I was expecting that soon, but at the same time, it was like, whoa,

they are definitely siding with the player here, right? So that was really my first reaction where it's like, they're choosing Gasol over Fisdale and they're choosing to try to keep their star player happy. So in that sense, it's like, it seems to me that they want to move forward. How do you feel about that, Chris?

I mean, it's an interesting situation. I know them both. I like them both. But I also was well aware that that, That relationship had gone sideways, and the other night was a culmination of that, right? Once you see those headlines everywhere. And when somebody says, there were a couple things. When Marcus All said the other night, one of his first comments was, okay, so all right, let me, let me rewind.

I'm at the game. So the Grizzlies were in this tight game with the Brooklyn Nets, and they got down big coming out of the second half. They're tied in the first half. They're down big in the third quarter. They fight back. And now we're kind of getting towards winning time, right? The fourth quarter. Gasol gets up like it's time to check in, then sits right back down.

Okay? The coach isn't checking him in. Later, it's even like now more towards the end of the game. He gets up and he walks down to the scorer's table as to check in. And then he is directed back to the bend. at which point he turns to the bench and does the like, you know, hands in the air like, I don't know, you tell me, right? And goes and he sits back down on the bench.

And I was sitting by somebody at the game and I turned to him and I said, oh no, oh no. Because that was the moment where he told him, go back on the bench. And I was like, let's just wait and see what happens in the post game. And Gasol is in the, he's usually about two minutes. is how much he talks. That's quick. And he's very smart, very measured guy. But he usually talks, you know, briefly.

He talked and he kept on and, you know, PR director says, all right, guys, enough. You know, how it is in a locker room. Gassal says, no, I want to keep on talking. Takes a bunch more questions. They come back in. All right, guys, you know, last question, whatever. And Mark's like, no, I want to keep talking. So then throughout all of those comments, you know, was parsed what most people could probably have read the other night.

But there were two things that stood out to me that made me freak out that like, all right, this is not okay. The first one was he said they wouldn't have done that to Mike, right? As if to say, this isn't about being held accountable. Like he didn't take it as I'm being held accountable and I've got a price. with being held accountable, it was they wouldn't have done this to Mike Conley. So I've been here for a long time. They benched me. They wouldn't have done this to Conley, no matter how he was playing.

And so there was clearly this inner belief that everybody doesn't get held accountable, right? You can say you're trying to hold your best player accountable to send a message to the rest of the players, except clearly Mark didn't believe that that would have been the case if it were somebody other than him. And then he went on to say, they knew that taking away my playing time would hurt me, and that's why they did it. And at that point, it's a realization, like he's taking this personally. Like, he's hurt. So anyways, you fast forward, they're done with the game. And then yesterday comes, and of course, my, as I'm talking locally, I'm saying, listen, you got to just get these two guys.

in a room. You got to get them on the same page, especially now that Conley's out. It's shining a big light on their relationship, and they've clearly got to be in lockstep and arm and arm, you know, if they're going to be able to scratch and claw until Mike Connolly can get back on the court. And then the news came, and I was stunned. I was shocked. And it was a recognition that this was not going to work, that these two people could not coexist. And they lost eight games in a row. It's more than that. I mean, the last 40 regular season games, they were 14 and 26, I believe. It was the record of the last 40 regular season games. And Gasol had turned in. And their relationship wasn't great then, right? Well, see, there was one moment last year, and I've talked about before, but, you know, again, it's not like Memphis gets a lot of coverage. But do you remember the take that for data thing? Yeah. That was like the big course. Yeah, right, right. Classic moment. Everybody, everybody in the NBA knows. Okay. So here's a little backstory on that.

So the take-that-for-data thing happens in San Antonio after game two. They're not going to rook us. And so Memphis is in a fever pitch. There's Fisdale shirts being sold. Everybody's like, hell yeah, you know. They at us and now we're going to show San Antonio who's boss and blah, blah, blah. And all the players are all jacked up after that. They're like the plane didn't even feel like we had just lost.

We're just ready to go for game three because coach has our back. yada, yada, yada, right? Go into the shoot around that day. Mike Connolly's like, we told Fisdale, we're paying for his fine. That's not coming out of his pocket. We're paying it, the players. And so, anyway, and everybody's kind of talking about, Zbo's talking about, they're all talking about it, they're all talking about it.

Take that for Dad. It is the biggest story in sports. It's leading around the horn. It's leading PTI. It's everywhere. Rachel Nichols is talking about it on her show. She's wearing a Fisdale shirt the whole night. So anyways, everybody walks over to Gasol and asks him about it and asks him what he thought about Fisdale's, you know, rant.

You know what he says? What did he say? I didn't see it. Wow. He said, I didn't see it. Wow. We're like, shut up, man. And, hey, this is in the middle of the playoffs.

He said, I didn't see it. We're like, what are you talking about? Like, he absolutely, like, dude, he's on the team. It's all anybody is talking about in sports, and he's on the team. But instead of talking about it all, he just said, I didn't see it. And that's when I was like, the hell's going on here? Because at the beginning of the season, there was all these jifts and everything. Wow.

You know, Connor McGregor, and he's doing the Connor McGregor walk, and he's jumping around, like, he's doing this Johnny Cash thing with a guitar, and he's slapping his ass. And he was, number one, in peak form. and number two, he was like bouncing around the gym and all this stuff. And then somewhere in the middle of that season, towards the end of that season, something happened. And that guy was vanished. And then that happened in the playoffs.

And I was like, what the hell? So now you get to this season. It's kind of like, all right, new lease on life. And he's like best buddies with Conley. So even if he isn't great with the coach, he's still going to play for Mike. You know what I mean? Like, there's still guys.

And he's not going to let everybody else down. And he's not going to be some malcontent necessarily. Because this guy's on his best buddies on the team. Well, Conley gets injured. And now all of a sudden the spotlight is on them. And, I mean, you saw it come to a head. He benched him. He popped off.

and I suppose they've tried to get them in a room before, but it just wasn't gonna take like they, it's egos, man. Did you see what Gossol said this summer with like how the Spanish national team, you know, was like a family, and he said it was a lot different than Memphis.

The thing that I can't figure out, and like, maybe you have an idea on this or not, but like, what exactly was it? Because like you said, the beginning of the last season, he was awesome.

I mean, he was clear, I mean, it seemed like he was loving the situation. And then just something changed all of a sudden. It was just something with Fizzdale or was it just something with the team overall? I don't know. It just seems to me like it has to be more than just Fisdale. No, I mean, that's why they made this move.

It's him and Fizz. Fizz is a kind of a no nonsense. I don't give a shit what you think kind of guy. He may dog cuss you. He may try to embarrass you and dress you down and this kind of stuff. And these guys come from different worlds. I mean, Marcus saw the private school kid with two doctors as parents, right? Like, he probably hasn't been humiliated in front of people before.

And so his tact is not to say, oh, well, I'll show you and I'm going to go play my ass off. His tact is to be, nobody talks to me that way. I don't respect you. You know what I mean? And people could say, well, then you're a wussy or you're a whatever. But I'm just saying, like, it didn't take. And then, you know, what happens is both guys just say, F you, no F you. You know what I mean?

Like, like, what do you talk? I'm just back and forth. And he takes things personally, clearly, right? Oh, for sure. There's no doubt about that. And I do think that's a job of a coach. You got to know what buttons to push with players when you're a coach. You really do.

And you've got to know, I remember Hughie Brown told me 100 years ago, you better identify in that locker room and on that court who the guys you need on your side. And it's done in many a coach over the years. You know what I mean? That's a big point you're hitting on there, Chris. you know, and I think that's something that can go overlooked a lot of times is because all these players are just people too. And, you know, I used to work at a sports psychology company called

Sports Aptitude where like with our player profiles, we had psychological profiles of players, you know, one of the things that was useful, you know, in some ways. Like, for example, if there were a team and they needed to know maybe how to handle a player, like the type of personality that player had, because it's important to understand that every player needs different types of treatment from the coach. I mean, one way doesn't work for everybody, right? So, like, I remember Greg Popovich said, in one of the Spurs documentaries, it might have been something on NBA TV. Oh, no, no, it was when Tim Duncan's jersey was retired. And Popovich said, like, I'm thankful that you let me coach you because it said an example for everybody else, right?

That worked for Duncan, but it's not going to work for every star player out there. It worked for Tim, but not for everybody else. So for someone like Gasol, you're right. Like, you can knock Mark Gasol if you want for not being able to take it. But at the same time, everybody's a different. And maybe for the Grizzlies, Fisdale just hadn't really got that yet. Or maybe it could be the other way. Maybe you can blame Gasol if you want to.

Maybe Fisdale should be able to coach the way he want to play. I don't know. I mean, it's... I'm not taking aside as much as I'm just telling people the reality of the situation. For sure. When I say you, I mean like the, I mean like the listeners more so like you. They're all kinds of different. Like it's the same as being a teacher.

There are some kids that will not respond unless you MF them because that's what they're used to. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've been around guys in the NBA. You know what I mean? Like there ain't nothing you could have said the Zeebo or Tony or any of them like Tony Allen or Zach Randolph or some of these guys that like the, that have played here. You could have MF and then dog cussed them up and down. And, I mean, like, that's common to, like, that's how they grew up.

You know what I mean? Whereas, Marcus Lowe didn't grow up like that. Like I said, a private school kid with, you know, two doctors as parents. To him, it's like you don't talk to me. Like, that's not how you motivate a man like that, right? And some people, that's their mode of operation. There's some guys that can't play for Bobby Knight. You know what I mean?

They don't want to get him mapped up and down all time. They don't want to get. I had Bobby Knight as a little league coach. Well, not it wasn't. Bobby Knight, but a guy sure as hell channeled Bobby Knight. And it worked for some kids, but not for me and not for others. He had to Caliperi when he was a, when he was a college coach. And he had a bunch of kids that were from, like, if you went to their neighborhoods, you wouldn't be comfortable. I mean, and these kids admittedly were, they grew up in some

really rough places. You're talking Camden, New Jersey, and Detroit, and wherever, right? And, I mean, the way he would talk to, the way he would talk to us people and stuff and whatever. But on the same level, like, say, like the coach after him was like Josh Paster. And he was more like the golly G. Willikers type. And those kids, the rough one, they just roll their eyes and run all over him. It's weird. It's a hard balance because they don't respect you being the non-cursor and say, gosh, darn it, like that kind of stuff.

They just roll their eyes at that. you know what I'm saying? But if you hit... Like Brad Stevens putting a dollar in the swear jar. I know, yeah, but if you jump up in their face

and call them a worthless MF, like they may go run through a wall. You know what I mean for you. Like it's crazy. You just never know which buttons to push. And that thing got sideways and everybody had too big of an ego to just say,

hey, you know, we got to be on the same page here. It sucks. It sucks. Because Fizzel is a good guy. He is. I believe that.

Oh, Phil seems awesome. And that's the scary part. It's like they had a good coach. It's hard to find a good coach in the league, right? It's really hard. There's not a lot of great coaches. Never mind good coaches either.

So it's like this to me, like this is kind of, you know, touched on what I wrote about today. It's like this could get worse. And that's the scary part for Memphis. Well, all right. So now we need to fast forward to your, you bring the, you're trying to bring the Kevin Obama to me. So the coach is gone. They replaced him with J.B. Bicker staff.

Poor J.B. Poor J.B. had to take over the friggin rockets with Dwight and James. And now he's got to take over the Grizzlies while Mike Conley's out. Oh, man. So you wrote about the Grizzlies and you wrote about how, oh, surprisingly, your answer is to blow everything up, as usual. All right. Blu! Let me.

All right. Let's get serious now. Just hear me out. Okay. I want to hear it. The Grizzlies before Mike Conley, like, really got hurt, right? Before he really got hurt, they had started off the season extremely well, and they were seven and four after they had gotten a win at Portland.

And they have now lost since that moment eight games in a row, putting their record at seven and 12. And I would contend at seven and four on pace to win 48 games, there was nobody saying they should blow it up, their roster's not good enough, they should move on. Instead, it was they got a hell of a bargain in Tyreek Evans, Chandler Parsons is starting to look good, they've got the best bench unit in the NBA right now, they had beaten the rockets twice, they had beaten the Warriors once in those games. And so I suppose you can back up the truck and say, okay,

Well, it doesn't matter that Mike Conley got hurt, but they lost six straight game. They have not won a game since Mike Conley went down. And obviously, they just got rid of their coach. If Mike Conley doesn't go down, I would contend they're not bad. And they're not even close to bad. And they competed with the best teams in the NBA. And so the idea that, okay, so Mike Connolly got hurt. They lost a bunch of games in a row.

they're now, I believe, one and a half games out of the playoffs. And I don't know how many games they'll win over the next couple weeks. Their schedule's rough. But there's nobody that would have said that when they're on pace to win 48 games. And in fact, they did revamp their whole roster. The only things they got left that are like mainstays are Mike Conley and Mark Gasol. And so the idea that like, oh, we'll just get rid of one of them. Like, for what?

For what? Like, what is that? You got the, they're not an old team. I think there's like eight teams in the NBA or nine teams that are older than them. They did revamp their roster. They did let go of their veterans. To your point about their seven and four start, Chris, like, you know, you're right. Like the start they got off to was awesome, right?

And when I say blow it up, it's, you still get away from Mike Conley to get back. I mean, there's, there's no blowing anything up, you know, if one of your players is out hurt, right? I think you need to at least see how things go. But really, my concern is, what if they end up getting worse? Like, what if, what if Bicker staff is just awful? And Gassol, it continues to be unhappy. And Gassol, what if it gets to the point where he basically, he requests a trade? I'm not, it might not get to that point.

But if it does get to that point, I think maybe it's at least something you're going to think about, because you're right. What are you going to get? I mean, I don't know what you're going to get for Gassol. So it's the type of thing where if one of your two, best players wants out of a situation that you're right it isn't at the bottom of the league like they are not the worst situation right now by any means right like they can still contend for that six seven or eight seat in the west like that's that's fine i mean that that's fun right but

what if what if one of those players within that situation which which isn't so bad thinks it's horrible and he wants out like then i think maybe you're you're against a wall where it's like, well, maybe that is the best path forward for us. I would say if they were bad with Mike Conley and Markisal, then it's got to, then yes, everything has to be on the table. But they're not, and they weren't, and they aren't going to be. They've never been bad when they're healthy, ever. It's never happened.

You could put me, you, and Isaac, our producer, on the court with Mike Conley and Marcosal, and you're going to win a couple, you're going to win some games. You know, and that's, I don't know. I don't know. I can shoot some threes, man. What drives me crazy is the whole, like, you know, this comes up, and I don't want to bust you up as much as my buddy Manix. Chris Mannis wants Gassal to the Celtics so damn bad it makes him sick.

So this is the big, the big, this is all these people. Shout out Chris Mannis. Hey, this is what they write, the aging Mark Gasol, the on the downside of his career, Marcus Saul. Listen, he gets traded to the fucking Celtics and you know what they'll say? They'll say the multi-time All-Star, Marcusal, the consensus top five center in the NBA, Marcusal. Marcus Saul is so old and aging that he is averaging 19 points.

He's having a, like, he's not having a great year. And he's averaging, averaging 19 points, nine rebounds and four assists. You know how many guys in the NBA do that, Kevin? Four. Not a lot. Markisaw, DeMarcus cousins, Russell Westbrook, and the Greek freak, Janus. That's it.

Four points. You're right. I mean, like Gassol gets some weird treatment. But the thing is, I mean, even if they're average, like, let's say Conley comes back and Gasol is, you know, maybe he's not happy, but he's content. And they're like a 44, they're on pace to win, let's just say 44, 45 games. That still doesn't change some of the points that I made in my article, which, you know, just to kind of recap through.

you know, Fizzdale wasn't the problem that we kind of agree with. Chris Wallace has made a lot of, you know, poor decisions over the, over this decade with the Grizzlies. You could, you could point towards him as that what might actually be one of the issues with Memphis. Or maybe you don't, because, you know what, mistakes happen. They haven't had a high draft pick. They're not a free agent at this station. So maybe you don't point in that direction. Hold on, hold on.

Let me just, obviously I talk about this all time. And I used to have, I used to interview Chris Wallace every week, and we've had blood, blood wars over stuff. There have been a tremendous amount of mistakes that have been made, right? There have been botched draft pick after botched draft pick. Their draft record has been poor. They have made some unwise decisions. The Chandler Parsons thing is looking better, but it's clearly not going to be worth what they shelled out. And they clearly got damaged goods for at least one of the seasons last year, right? Because you kind of slandered him in there. And I saw that some places elsewhere, you know, and I know he's an easy target. He's been on a minute's restriction.

He's, he's been playing really well. Like, he's shooting 48% from three. Hopefully, you could get to the point where he's back to the big starters minutes. They've been so careful because of three knee surgeries, but he has been good and an extremely valuable player for them this year. Anyways, that's a, if we, if we count it out, okay, you still cost over $20 million for 19 minutes for a game. 100%. 100. I'm with you.

100%. And there have been other errors. And no guarantees at last either because of his injury proneness, which is scary. He is the source of grand conflict. Chris Wallace and the front office for that matter. Because yes, there are all those mistakes. He also, and you mentioned this,

he nailed Conley, he nailed Gasol, he nailed Zeebo when nobody believed in that. And he nailed Tony Allen becoming a start. slash maybe best perimeter defender in the NBA. And all of four guys were around for seven straight playoff years and their names and numbers will all be in the rafters. They have, San Antonio has made the playoffs 20 straight years. Atlanta, which their streak will end this year, has been their 10.

And the Grizzlies are next with seven. And so it is not common to have a win. product that goes to the playoffs, has a crack at it, has had wars with the Chris Paul Clippers and the Oklahoma City with Kevin Durant and Westbrook and all these different kinds of things. I think they've won like 27 playoff games or something like that. So I mean, it's, it's it's complicated, right? On one hand, yeah, you screwed up a lot. But the big picture stuff, which is putting a putting, putting an organization in a position to, every year and and you kind of will always get the and so now he's on he's on front street right

because if they don't you don't have tony and zack anymore right the core four is no longer in memphis and so now it's going to shine a light on how you filled out the rest of that roster and if it's you know you kind of just said we think they're getting their ass kick because of the coach okay well now you don't that's your last bullet right like it's either the coach or the so they better hope they win. No doubt, Chris. We're on the same page with Chris Wallace. I think terrible, terrible mistakes were made,

but at the same time, it's really, really hard to be an NBA general manager, and he made a lot of good decisions too. So, like, whether the GM moving forward is Chris Wallace or it's somebody else, or whether it's John Hollinger or Sam Hinky or some guy off the streets, like no matter who it is, really my concern, my focus is,

what is the next step? what is the direction because at some point, at some point, they're going to have to rebuild. At some point, it's going to have to happen. Everybody has to. Over the next three-ish years or whatever it is, this season, 2018-19 and 2019, 20, 20, 20, 20, Conley, Parsons, and Gasol are all on the books for over $80 million each season. Gasol's 33 in two months. Conley will be 33 when his contract is up in 2020.

That's the first year they'll have cap space. They don't have a lot of young talent on the roster right now. And so really my concern is that, okay, let me back up real quickly. The conversation we had on Sunday night with me, you, Sam Vassini, Kevin Arnivetz, a bunch of people on Twitter was you can't just blow it up now or you can't rebuild now because there's so much risk. And that's true. I mean, Memphis is in a small market.

Things could go really sour for that team if you were to pull the plug right now. But my thing is, it could get even worse if you wait. If you wait until 2020 when Gasol is ready to go, you know, win a championship on a league minimum contract in four years and Gasol is near and Conley's there, and Conley's there on the tail end of his contract and you don't have a lot else, that's when you could be in that really, really bad spot. And that's the spot I would want to avoid if I'm Memphis. And maybe it won't be that bad at that point.

But I think there's a chance it could be when right now, what we know, is the 2018 draft is really loaded up top. I don't want to hear about this shit. I don't want to hear about that shit. But you know what? It's the reality. It's the reality. Let me explain to you reality.

Here, here. Hold on. Just wait for me for a second. Fine. All right. Here's reality, Kevin. And I just want to make this clear to you, okay? I just told you the Grizzly made the playoffs seven straight seasons.

And what I am in favor of is attempting to rebuild on the fly rather than tearing everything down and being an absolute piece of crap. because some draft is going to be good at some point. Here's the thing. There have been all kinds of drafts that have taken place. And I would tell you that the Minnesota Timberwolves haven't made the playoffs in 13 seasons and the Kings haven't made it in 11 seasons and the Sons haven't made it in seven seasons. And the Sixers haven't made it in five seasons. And the Magic haven't made it in five seasons.

And how about this? How about because the big thing is winning big, right? Okay. How about these teams, the last time that they won, A, A, playoff series, the Bucks, 16 years, the Hornets, 13 years, the Kings, 13 years, the T-wolves, 13 years, the Pelicans, nine years, the Pistons, nine years, the Nuggets, eight years. I mean, this is how long these franchises have been since they haven't won, since they won a playoff series. So the best thing that could possibly happen to you, if you want to tank out, you want to blow it up, and you want to get the best thing that could happen would be what? The number one draft pick, right, Kev? That would be the best, wouldn't it?

These are the number one draft picks that have been, all right, the number one draft picks that have won an NBA finals in the last 30 years, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Kyrie Irving. and Kyrie Irving because of LeBron James. That's the last 20 years. The last 20 years. Okay. So I don't get the number one pick. I get the number two pick. Nobody that's been drafted number two has won an NBA finals on their team.

And the same goes for number three and the same goes for number four and the same goes for number five. Except for five, Dwayne Wade in 2003 played in a finals by the team and won and obviously with the LeBron incarnation first with the shack and then with the LeBron. Other than that, you're talking about 20 years of guys that were selected number one, number two, number three, number four, or number five. And the only ones that have titles, the only ones are LeBron, Duncan, Kairie, and Wade. The only ones that have even been to a finals are the three kids from Oklahoma City, Durant, Westbrook, and Hardin,

because Hardin was taken number three, Durant number two, and Westbrook number four. So the best thing that can happen to me is I get a top five draft pick, or maybe even the number one draft pick. Okay, maybe I'll get Duncan or LeBron. Maybe that's what I'll do.

Maybe I'll get Dunk or or LeBron. But there's 20 years of history telling you that that doesn't, the cornerstone that you, like this, this whatever, this 2018 draft and maybe you'll get the guy like at least for 20 years time there have been two guys drafted because i ain't counting kairi as the cornerstone a guy that he's the best guy on a finals team the only ones that have at least been and won are duncan and lebron so why is that a

good gamble like why is that a good bet you're right like there's no guarantee you're right like there's no guarantee There's no guarantees with any plan at all. I mean, you mentioned one team, you know, at the beginning there. It escapes me at the moment, but someone else mentioned Orlando, like, what if they went the path of Orlando where they get some high picks, but they don't get any good players? And you're right. I mean, that that's a conceivable outcome. You know, to that I would counter with a lot of those teams, they didn't go all in on a tank. They were just bad. I'm not suggesting that they just be bad. I'm suggesting that they tank. for two years, outright tank, be at the bottom of the barrel. Because I think it's for the best long term, just based on the fact that each individual draft needs to be assessed independently. I mean, you can compare them to each other, compare them historically, but every draft is different. So the point is, really, 18 and 19 have some really, really, really, really great prospects in there.

Whereas if you're waiting until 20, 21, 22, 22, 23, to start your rebuild. You know what? Look, that could be work out better. I'm not saying that it's wrong to wait this core out, to let Markosol, you know, fade away and to let him go somewhere else once the contract is. I'm not saying that's the wrong thing to do. What I'm just saying is if you do it right now, I think there's a little bit more certainty with what you have a chance to get. And you give yourself more time to do it. And what I'm arguing is there is no certainty. There is no certainty. I agree. I'm not arguing that there is. That's not even part of the equation because there are no certainties. There are none in the NBA. There are not in life for that matter. There are no

certainties. The point is, is putting your franchise in the position for sustainable success because that's what they did in the first place by trading Pau Gasol. They did that 10 years ago when they traded their star player for a bunch of young guys. People hate that trade. And you know what? Maybe it was a bad trade. But I'll take Chris Wallace's word for it. he saw something in Marcosol. Because a lot of those international players, you know what, especially back 10 years ago, scouting with them really wasn't as good as it as today.

And so I'll take his word forward that they did see something in him that perhaps other teams may not have. This kind of does get forgotten. Like, Markasol was the MVP of the, I believe it's called the ACB at the time. He was the MVP, and that was at the time the second best league in the world. So it wasn't like some kind of, you know,

We're scouting some 15-year-old or something, right? Like, the guy was playing amongst men. It wasn't scouting Janus. He was playing against men in a great league and was the best player. I mean, it stands to reason that he was probably going to be pretty good at worst. But everyone just saw his physique and saw that he was a chubby guy. And if he repeats history, if he trades Marcusol today, if you wake up tomorrow morning and find out that he makes the same trade.

And I tell you, you know what? That's going to guarantee the Grizzlies seven straight years of the playoffs and runs with a chance, with a chance of getting to the finals from 2000, from 2020 to 27. You would take that in a heartbeat. And I'm not saying that that would ever happen because, again, there are no guarantees, there are no certainties, but it's about positioning your franchise for sustainable success. That's all I care about. sustainable success and trying to position your team to win a championship.

And so I just think if you blow it up now, not right now, but once Conley gets back and if things aren't good, if you blow it up then and you're able to get a really good return for a guy like Conley who has a lot of years left, and if you get something solid from a team that's really trying to push and contend for Marcus Sol, you know what? You can bottom out for the next two years, have a young, fun team that fans can find new players to root for. then really maybe starting in 20, the 1920 season or the 2020, 2020 to 2021 season, that's when you're ready to kind of make your push back towards the playoffs with your young roster.

That's it. That's all I look for. I'll say this too. Being in charge, being a general manager running a franchise is an extremely difficult task. Everybody's got misses. Very hard. Everybody screws up. Everybody, right?

like Danny, Danny Aange used, Danny Aange who has done a tremendous job once upon a time used a high draft pick that was the kid from Kentucky, right? That was like, was it James Young? It was James Young. And that's the thing. I can't knock a general manager

from missing on a pick after like 15. And that's what almost all of Memphis's picks have been. Well, no, but well, they did screw some of those up. I know, I know. But when it's a long run of them, it's a bad. Yeah, yeah. It's not easy. Generally, any pick outside the lottery, I mean, it's largely a crapsure. For sure. It's, and even in the lottery, unfortunately. But here's what I'll tell you. It also just takes a crazy amount of luck. And I say that because, okay, for sure you get credit on Markisal and the whole, yeah, if you could make that deal and you could promise me that you'd be good for going forward and yada, yada, yada, here's the thing. It's not.

like they sat around and identified that Mark Gassall could be an all-star slash defensive player of the year in the NBA. That didn't happen. That's why they took that friggin' bum the beat number two. They already had Gassol on the roster. If they thought they had the Mark Gassol, they wouldn't have drafted Fabit. But they didn't see it. they were about to pull a trigger and trade Mike Conley for Ramon Sessions,

of which I probably at the time would have endorsed because Conley was terrible. And all I'm saying is like you watch this stuff play out over the years and some of it's just luck. Some of it's just I'm glad we didn't do that and I'm glad we didn't do that, right? because sometimes guys just become way different players as the years go on. And I'm just, I am so skittish, as you know, about the draft pick thing because I lived it. I lived it, right? I hosted draft parties every year and sat in arena three straight years winning 22 games. And then Hope Springs Eternal because you get the high draft pick, right?

and it had those high draft picks had very, very little to do with anything that's happened in the last seven years. Marcosal was the result of a trade. Mike Conley was taken number four overall in a three-player draft because that was Odin, Durant, and Horford. And then he was the fourth guy. And it took him five or six years to get good. And then Zach Randolph was traded for Quentin Richardson's expiring, contract because they were about to draft Blake Griffin and Tony Allen was

just a discard off a finals appearance Celtics team. I mean, it wasn't any of the guys they drafted. Tony Allen was really, he wasn't discard. Tony Allen is really good. I know. He's a big part of that team. They got him for three million bucks. Come on. He wasn't

that value. Here's the thing though, Chris. I'm curious about your thoughts with this. This just came to mind. With how well it worked from Memphis with what they did, you know, despite missing those picks. They pressed the reset button, and they had some really garbage years,

and they missed on all their picks. But my thing is this, is if you nail those picks, in addition to the assets that you got for that star player in Gasol, in addition for some of the smart trades you made for a guy like Randolph, signings for a guy like Tony Allen,

what is your team? It's a real contender. Oh, I agree. And that's the only spot that I would want to put my team into position to be, is to be a contender that can sustain success like Memphis did, but with a little bit more umph to it. If you nail that to beat pick,

if you're taking, look, this is, again, you can't just say this in hindsight, but if you take hard in there, or a following year, you take somebody else that you may have passed on,

just roll the dice again, and then maybe this time it'll be at even higher level. And that's why I'm so freaked out. Maybe it's just their bad draft record. Clearly, you could have had Steph Curry and Kevin Love. Yeah. I mean, the only one- They traded Kevin Love for OJ Mail.

Right. The only ones that nailed those drafts was Oakesdy. And they nailed it every time. Nailed it. I mean, they drafted three MVP's. But to your point, player development is also a factor in this that we're not talking about. Yeah, there's luck in drafting the right guy. But once you get the right guy, you got to develop him.

You look at the spurs that, yeah, they drafted Tim Duncan, but they also drafted Tony Parker and Mono Genoblee and Kawhi Leonard, and they developed those guys. They didn't let them just fall by the wayside when they were having struggles. Like, Kauai Leonard, we talk about this all the time. He had a broken jumper when he came into the league. Now he's shooting threes at a very high clip. Player development matters.

OKC had a great player development staff. Isaac's right. There's so much more to this than really just the players and the coach and the GM. I mean, up in that line, up from ownership down to the guys in the video, room. I mean, everybody has an important role in the team. And that's one of the things, you know, people say Memphis isn't a free agent destination and they're not. They're a really small market team. But guess what? San Antonio wasn't a free agent destination in the 90s either. They made themselves into a place where players want to go and players want to play and players want to win. I'm not saying

any team can do that because you need a lot of luck. You need probably 90% of luck to talent to make that happen. But the same time, if things, things break right for you, you can make your team out to be a destination. Memphis could suddenly six years from now, seven years from now, be the place that that star player that summer wants to play with because there's guys there that he wants to win with. I'm just saying like right now they're not a destination, but they can be in the future. Any team can be. Oh, not a destination, Kevin. Why don't you tell Tyree Kevin's a Ben McElmore who both signed over the three offseason. you shut the hell up, Kevin.

Why don't you tell those guys? They're not a destination. How dare you? By the way, Ben McElmore took a three in that Brooklyn game. This is the Gasol comment game. He took a three that if it didn't hit the backboard, it would have killed a fan. Like, I've never seen anything like it. The guy, like, he missed it.

I mean, it hit, like, it hit to the left of the square. Like, I never even seen it. Wasn't he supposed to be a shooter coming in? Yeah, I know. He was a shooter. He was supposed to be a shooter. All right. So anyways, enough.

This was a weird circumstance where today the Grizzlies were the biggest news. And so I think I've got you on my side, though. We ain't blowing it up until we see if they suck with Mike Connolly, right? Yeah, we're in the same page, but really think strongly about blowing it up. I'd be willing to if the right offers on the table. Well, and here's the thing. Fisdale did screw up a little bit in terms of, I do think that if J.B. Bickerstaff just play, and I bet this is probably what, you know, the guy

that are probably front office guys that are sitting there going, hey, we're not that bad. Like our roster is not that bad even as currently constructed, even without Mike Conley. We shouldn't be losing to double digits to the friggin' nets at home in a Sunday afternoon, right? And so I do think he had this weird fascination with like Andrew Harrison and then he was playing Jarrell Martin and whatever. And I do think if J.B. Bickerstaff just comes in and he says, all right, I'm putting my best five guys out there. Tyreek Evans, Dylan Brooks, Chandler Parsons, Jamichael Green, Markisole. And then I bring Mario Chalmers and James Ennis

and Brandon Wright and maybe McLemore off the bench. And those are my nine guys that I'm rocking with until I get Conley back. Like, they'll win their share of games. They just will. That's not a shitty lineup. It's just not. But the problem is, you know,

you get like Andrew Harrison who's got a net rating of minus a thousand. And like, he gets minutes. And Jarrell Martin, and, like, he was just playing everybody, you know, and that ain't what you can do. You know, you get to searching, but that's not what you can do. But I wouldn't be surprised if J.B. Bickerstaff, I mean, here's a problem. They played the Spurs on Wednesday. They play the Spurs on Friday.

And then they play the second half of a back-to-back against Cleveland, where Fisdale's LeBron's boy, so LeBron will probably try to put, like, literally a thousand points on them. like it's going to be better. And so I was like, why don't you, if you were going to fire a guy, why don't you wait until, after you get your ass kicked three more times,

you know? Then at least the optics are better. Poor J.B. Bickersdale's going to get thrown to the wolves. Oh, man. Not easy. All right, Kevin, we'll get right back to it. But first,

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Or if you're late getting into the office, take an Uber and work from the car. Even book your Uber in advance for a truly stress-free experience. Install the Uber app today from the App Store or Google. play. New riders who use the code NBA show will get five bucks off their first three rides. That's code NBA show to get five bucks off your first three rides. Uber, the better way to get anywhere you have to be. New users only offer expires February 18th, 2018. Let's touch on a couple of big picture things because by the time people get to listen to this, there'll already be Tuesday night games going on.

The Pistons won at Boston last night. I actually had this game on while I was working on some stuff last night. And you saw Tobias Harris was awesome. I've mentioned to you earlier this year that he could honestly make an All-Star team. And some guys, it's later in their career. They find the right fit or the right coach or whatever it may be, the right of guys they're playing with, but Paris is having a great year. And in the third quarter, Boston tied that game up.

And I really thought it was going to be another one of those Brad Stevens second half specials because they have mauled people in the second half of games this year. So I was mega impressed with the Pistons being able to get that win. Are we ready to say the Pistons or something to be trifled with? and maybe it could be a really hard outcome playoff time or no. I think, you know, we might have touched on this earlier in November. I forget if we did, but it's something I wrote about where it's like the question with Detroit, really, all the data and all the film and everything about that team pointed to them being

for real. And it still does. That was shown on Tuesday night, like you said. I mean, Andre Drummond is a new player now. Really, my only question with them is at some point does it regress? Does Reggie Jackson fall back into bad habits? Does Andre Drummond go back to what he was more last year than this season? If that happens, then no, they're not for real.

But if this continues with what they are, man, they're really good. Andre Drummond is playing on a new level. So much energy on defense, on the boards. I mean, his improved free throw shooting seems to be for real. Reggie Jackson making smarter plays on offense, really buying into his role. Avery Bradley making such a significant difference on the defense. of end of the floor, while also doing what he does as a contributor on offense. I mean, that team's got a lot of good players, individual players that all fit together well.

And Stan Van Gundy, good coach. I mean, I think they're for real. I think, I don't know if they're going to finish top two in the Eastern Conference, but they're definitely going to be a top four seat, I think, in my opinion. They're for real. Yeah, and especially when you look and you've seen the success of the Celtics since the season started. And I see, you know, I've seen the stat throwing around a lot, and I've read it quite a bit that, you know, the margin in first halves is very, very low, possibly even a negative. But they have just absolutely killed people in the second half and primarily the third quarter.

So I thought, like I said, last night was just another one of those here. All right, pistons were up, but now the Celtics got it tied, and this is where they run off. And there the Pistons were just kept coming back, coming back, coming back. And I don't know, man. I kind of like them. I'm very surprised because, God, they were a colossal disappointment last year, you know? Man, they're fun, too. I mean, it's, they're a team where they got some players, you know, you mentioned Tobias

Harris earlier, where they have a lot of guys that are kind of easy to root for, I think. A lot of guys who, you know, have had some issues, whether it was in situations in the past or Drummond, heads of difficulties, Reggie Jackson, exile. from Oklahoma City. There's a lot of guys that I like to root for on that team. We haven't even mentioned Stanley Johnson. I mean, his defense is terrific. His shot hasn't come yet.

His offense overall hasn't, but he's another young player only 21 years old where it's like he could get better too, maybe not this season. But entering year four of his career or year five, they have a lot of talent on that team. All right. Should I apologize yet about the Rockets and Oklahoma City

and how I leaned more towards Oklahoma City? Oklahoma City while you were all in on the rockets or should I let the thing play out and then hope for a playoff matchup or something later down the road where they can meet up because it is it is rather clear that in terms of regular season success, this is going to be radically different. Wait until the playoffs. Just wait until then. When the one seed rockets are facing the eight seed thunder or something like that. that would be wild if that were to happen i do still think the thunder will get it together i do you don't do you no i mean i think you know it's like i wrote about on monday i think it's dude i think it's ultimately up to russle westbrook i really do think it is i mean mellow has to make adjustments too um i like some of the stuff that they run with billy dunovan i think there's potential there but they need guys to buy in off the ball too um i question maybe how sustainable their defense is i mean

I believe second best defensive rating in league so far the season. I wonder if that drops, maybe their offense improves and then they find themselves still somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of questions with that team. It's not all on Westbrook, but he's ultimately the center of everything, right? I think he's the team that makes that go and can take it to an either higher level. So I hope they figure it out because you know what, if they do, having those three guys, Westbrook, Carmelo, Anthony, Paul, George, they could be a real threat in the playoffs,

right, if they do figure it out. So I hope they do, but I'm skeptical just based on the fact that we're getting the same version of Russell Westbrook that we have in the past. If I'm you, Chris, I mean, just hold off, though. I mean, I'd stand your ground with that team because there's a hell of a lot of talent on it. How weird is the Kauai thing? Like, do we have any sense of when he is coming back? The Spurs have kept on rock, and they're 13 and 7 without him.

obviously just got Parker back in the fold. But like, it's so bizarre to me. He is clearly one of the best five guys in the league. Michael Jordan called him the best two-way player in the entire NBA. And, I mean, I get you're off the radar when you're injured. But with almost, I just, I can't remember something like this. And maybe I'm just, you know, not remembering. but, you know, the general mode of operation with the player is you get hurt, you get your surgery,

or whatever it may be, you do your rehab, and then you're back to playing, right? That's the way it works. And in this particular case, it's like, we don't really understand what's wrong with him, and we really don't know when we could see him again. it's strange right or is it not i mean the quai leonard situation is kind of strange um just because there's been so little clarity on what exactly is going on but you know popovitch did say um yesterday or earlier today or something like this where i think it was tony parker said kawai's a couple weeks away and then popovic kind of disputed that report and just said he's close um so we'll see i mean

the spurs are going to be fine right They're still near the top of the Western Conference. The most important thing is that Kauai gets back and he's healthy and he stays healthy. So if I'm San Antonio, it's like just to take as long as it takes for Kauai. Clippers had won three in a row. But have they really? You saw Blake go down and get injured. And it sounds like he's going to be out for a long time.

He has been plagued with injuries throughout his career. what do we do here? Do you think, I mean, they were already not having the season that some had expected you at the beginning of the year. And they had already lost, they lost Pat Bev for a time, they had lost Golanari. I mean, do you think they can even be okay without Blake Griffin? or do you think that this now, especially without Paul on that team anymore, that they're just super dead without Griffin

and that they're going to be a miserable team for two months? What do you think? Bad, bad, bad times are ahead for that team. I think the clippers are in serious, serious jeopardy of just falling off the rails over this period of time that Blake Griffin's out, two to three months with a spraying MCL. I'd be extremely concerned, you know, Yes, they won three in a row, but those wins were against Atlanta, Sacramento, and the Lakers.

It required 42 points from Lou Williams to beat the Lakers. You needed 33 from Blake to beat the Kings and the final minutes, and then you beat the Hawks, whoopty-do. They are a team where you look at those three wins in a row, if anything, those are actually losses because your team is going to be near the bottom of the barrel without Blake. And that's the scary part because this team, you know, you said, should I apologize for Houston. Well, like I did last week or the week before, I was dead ass wrong about the clippers.

I focused too much on the upside with that team where if Blake's healthy, if Gallo's healthy, if Patrick Beverly's healthy. And you know what? All three of them have gotten hurt already. Beverly's out, Blake's out, Gallo, hopefully he comes back soon. They're in trouble, man.

They're in real trouble. It's only, and how long is it until you fire Doc Rivers either? I mean, there's so. much wrong with that team from a chemistry perspective. Your head coach, he is somebody who I think it's getting close to time to move on from. I just feel like December or January, that team is just due for a serious implosion. And I'd be very nervous if I'm a Clippers fan, like our producer Isaac is. I'm sorry, Isaac, but it's a bad place to be.

Yeah. Let me ask you one thing, Kevin, about the Doc Rivers thing, because you've been, you're not a huge fan of Doc, right? No. It used to be, and then he never changed. Yeah, that's what I mean, because you obviously were well aware and probably growing up where you did, rooted for those old Celtics teams, like the 08 Celtics and Doc Rivers. Like, I really don't know if there is a guy that has an NBA championship that more people think is not a good coach. I'm not sure if there is. It's very strange, right? Like, everybody's got these tremendous respect for Eric Spolstra and Rick Carlisle and Greg Popovich. And I'm trying to think how many – I mean, I don't even know how many guys in the NBA even have them anymore, right?

Like, there's honestly not very many. With Ty Lou, right, he's got one now. That might be everybody, honestly, because Dan Tony didn't get one. Kerr, people think Kerr's good. So Kerr's another one. You know, with Doc, this is like, I don't know if it's an aside. It actually kind of touches on exactly, you know, my issue with him. There's an ESPN quote the other day.

I don't know if he said this in a media scrum or if he said it to just directed to the ESPN reporter. But it was just, I'm kind of just paraphrasing through this quote. It's a long wall of text. But basically he's talking about Kyle Kuzma, right? And he's saying how it's a great example of scouting for the Lakers. And then he goes into, he gets really defensive. And he's like, head coaches didn't get a chance to see Kuzma all the all season. I was at the Chicago pre-draft camp and he was sitting near Magic Johnson and Rob Polanka.

And he said they didn't see him all season either, right? Because they didn't have a job. And so he watches Kuzma. Kuzma went like seven for seven in game one. of the scrimmages. He killed it. He was amazing. I was at that game too. Kuzma was unbelievable, right? And Doc Rivers said he talked to some scouts after that game and he's like, oh my God, this guy's amazing. And he said, quote, then all of the scouts, not only ours, were like, no, you should have seen him in college because they had all this negative scouting stuff,

so you dismiss it. I guarantee you that's what all those teams did. So he's, in other words, he's talking about all the teams that passed on Kuzma. And he's saying, saying the Lakers were probably fortunate that their two guys didn't have all that baggage. They saw the positive stuff. That's the way the league works. I'm happy for him. And so the big takeaway from that for me is he's basically just throwing all his scouts under the bus and just saying Rob Plankan and Magic Johnson were lucky because everybody

else saw too much of the guy. And it's just like, who says that? And then after the game yesterday, he's saying Lonzo Ball pushed somebody, aka his son, into Blake. No, he didn't. Don't say that before you watch the replay, man. Don't throw that out there. It's just, there's been so many lies from Doc over the years. It's just frustrating. It's just really frustrating. I will defend him a little bit, just a little bit on the Kuzma take, because I do think that there is some reality in that, that there becomes a severe paralysis by analysis when it comes to draft picks and this and this is why so many become agists you know what I mean in the sense

that they don't want they don't they don't want the draymond greens and they don't want the they don't want the they don't want the they don't want the that's a totally different thing I think older players and they no I'm just saying like the more you pick apart guys the more you see them the more you see their warts rather than I saw this guy and my God he was And the, like, it is almost sometimes the less you see of them because the more you watch them, the more you start to pick them apart. There's a, there's a truth to that. There is a truth to that.

It can be, but it can work in reverse just as much. It can work just as much where you see a guy at first that you love and then you discover that he actually sucks when you see more. I mean, that can happen to. Oh, for sure. No, you're right. You're right. But I will tell you this, my opinion will only.

go down the more I watch Colin Sexton. I'm never watching him again and I'm going to draft him number one overall. Oh no, that dude did, no, the dude at Duke. Jesus. Like over the weekend, he had like 65 points and 30 rebounds, Bagley the third. Marvin Bagley is a good example of a guy and don't don't take what I'm about to say as like a serious knock on him, but he he's unbelievable. He's going to be a top three pick in all likelihood, and he's going to be a really good NBA player for a hell of a long time. But he's a good example of a guy where you do have to watch everything. Because if you just watch the highlights, you're only going to see when he's hitting threes. You're only going to see when he's having nice finishes around the room.

And that all matters a hell of a lot, and that's why he's a great prospect. But what also matters are the little things where he's bobbling passes or he's losing control of the ball, where he seems to not use his right hand at all. those are serious things that he needs to work on better at for him to reach a level. So the point is that you need to see as much as you possibly can or you miss those little details. That's all I think. With Bagley's going to be great, but he has some flaws that really need to be improved. All right.

You've already watched him too much, Kevin. Maybe I have, but watch out for those hands. It might only be a matter of time where I put out a stat where I track all his shots and it's like 95% of his shots have come off his left hand because I'm pretty sure it's pretty high. I mean, he is a true natural lefty, Marvin Bagley. I don't give a shit how many times he bibles the ball

if he gets 35 and 15 against other big time play. He is a freshman. Hey, but if you're a freshman in college and you're dropping 35 and 15s, I don't care if your hands are a little small. Somehow you're getting 35 at 15 so you can shut the hell up with all that stuff.

Like, you are picking. Hey man, all I want is the best. All I want is the best from him. That's like the whole perspective with Westbrook, too. It's like, yes, Westbrook is already one of the best point cards in basketball. Yes, he already is. But it doesn't mean that he also can't get better as a player. No, but this reminds us like after the Bagley, you know, ridiculous stuff over the weekend.

And I'm giving you the numbers that he had against Texas and Florida. Now all of a sudden you get like this like you're telling me like, oh, LeBron James kind of struggles going to his left. and LeBron James Shut up, man. Hey, guess what? Guess what?

LeBron turned an average trait, his jumper, into a strength. And now at 32 years old, LeBron has raised his game to the next level because he's somebody who didn't settle for being the greatest player of his generation.

He wanted to raise his game to another level. And you know what? He seems to have done that with the jumper. Wait, did you just say, real. Did you just say LeBron James is 32? Yeah. The aging, decrepit

on the downside, Marcus Saul is 32 also. Yeah, but he's not a super freak like LBJ. Oh, okay. John James. Yeah, right. I guess there's different. And LeBron also didn't have

major foot surgery on the Navak Lebrone on his foot two years ago either. Yeah, but he's also played 655,000. thousand games over the course of the last. You know, I think there's a real argument to be made that we live in a simulation. I think there's also a real argument to be made that LeBron James is an Android from the future.

So I wouldn't rule that out. I think that's probably so. Kevin, it's always my favorite time of the week. Thanks, brother. I'll talk to you next week. You too, Bruno. That was fun.

All right, man. Kevin O'Connor from Theringer.com. It's going to do it for today's NBA show. You did what you're hearing. Go give us a rating and review on. iTunes and we will talk to you next week.