The Ringer NBA Show - A Wild Finish to In-Season Tournament Group Play | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos provide their thoughts on the final day of in-season tournament group play. They recap the results from the final day of group play, discuss what they like and dislike about the tournament so far, give their thoughts on the teams that made it to the knockout round, and more (3:14). They wrap up by discussing the LaMelo Ball injury news and Mark Cuban's sale of his majority stake in the Dallas Mavericks (42:41). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is officially back and we've got you covered right here on the Ringer NFL feet. I'm Shiel Kapadia and every Tuesday and Friday, Ben Solek and I will be bringing you extra point taken. Nora Prentiotti here to tell you that Stephen Ruiz and I will be coming to you every Monday and Thursday. Our Monday show will recap everything from Sunday's games. Thursday show will encompass any news during the week with an eye towards the next slate of games. Subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. be sure to follow the ringer NFL on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter at ringer NFL. Oh, and welcome to this top five NBA podcast that we call Group Chat.

I'm Justin Barrier. Couldn't wait more than five seconds to brag about this, but joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Rob, I don't know if you checked your Spotify wrapped, but Group Chat is charting, my friends. We're going gold. We're going platinum. We're on the ballot, right? That's all we've been hoping for this whole time. And we're going to be in the conversation for the top basketball podcast. Being in the conversation is honestly everything.

I unfortunately was not able to see our rap stats on my own because I have a Spotify family plan. So they don't let you see the exclusive stats when you got hangers on your Spotify account. Well, the only thing better than being a creator is being a family man was. You really have those strong roots. Wait, you don't have a company employee account? No. No. I remember when you sent me the link to try.

I remember when you sent me the link to try to do it to convert my real account to that company account. And it wouldn't let me do it and now realize it because I had two other people on my account. Yeah, full disclosure, I don't either. You know, Watson and I are out here. We're trying to lift other people up. We're trying to split that premium with the rest of our friends and family, which I think is the more important thing, ultimately. The service is so incredible. it'd be a crime for me not to be spreading that love around to my nephews and stuff.

I, on the other hand, just wanted it for free. So I kicked everyone else off and I went rogue. Cheap and vain, Justin Barrier, needs to see the data, needs to see that, you know, our top five standing. Yeah, that's what you can do when you have a top five NBA podcast in the U.S., which our friends at Spotify have told us that we have. So shouts to everyone who's been listening. Congrats to all of my co-hosts and everyone behind the scenes, Isaiah and Jack and Ben. We are very proud of that accomplishment.

Maybe if we kick real ones off the feed, we can get a little higher, but we'll see. I think they're dragging us up. Us and real ones, we're going places together. That's right. All right. So on today's episode, we're going to get into some news, Lamella Ball, Mark Cuban, sort of selling the Mavericks. I don't even really know what to call it these days. Losing them?

But renting them? Leasing them, yes. Leasing to buy, perhaps. But we got to talk about last night's in-season tournament finale for group play. I didn't realize that I'd be doing so much math on the final day of this event, Rob. But I have to say, by the end of it, after we got through some of the shenanigans and the Celtics games and some of the other ones, watching the Warriors game and basically having to keep the counter in your head, wondering if the Warriors are going to be. the Kings by 11, only for them to lose outright was pretty fun.

Yeah, and to get in some of these games, too, all of the concurrent scoreboards on the screen so you can watch, you know, just like March Madness, everything that's happening at once, understand the standings across the board. You may not know exactly how many points Team A needs to beat Team B by to make the Wild Cards bot if they win, but if this team loses and if this other third team also loses, that stuff can get a little complicated. but I think just having all of this simultaneous action is good for the league. And in a way where every point, every basket, down to the end of these games matters,

even if your Billy Donovans are going to grouse a little bit, even if, you know, Jason Tatum has groused previously about the point differential kind of gaming at the end of some of these contests, personally, I don't have a problem with it. And it leads to some really interesting little side shows, right? Like, J.B. Bickerstaff, as the calves were beating the hawks, it was reported, you know, Chris Fidor of Cleveland.com had a report that, you know, Bickersdav was kind of like conferring with his coaches, checking in on the scores of the other games, figuring out, do I need to leave my starters in?

You know, do we need to keep pushing this thing or not? Because the calves were one of these teams that was like a little bit more of a long shot and ultimately reliant on point differential. So it's a different kind of competition that the NBA isn't used to, which is why I suspect some people's feathers are getting ruffled a little bit. But I think it's pretty fun, honestly. is a novel concept, guys. Every minute of a basketball game mattering.

Every second, every basket, every possession matters. That was an incredible feeling last night. It's particularly in the second half of Golden State Sacramento when, like Justin said, you're keeping the running count of, oh, Golden State needs to either keep this at 12 or when they got it down to 6 and 7, push it back up to 12. Like, that was incredible. And again, Billy Donovan, feathers being ruffled.

Oh, I'm sorry. Don't get your ass kicked by 35. That's just apparently too much to ask of the 2020, 3, 24 Chicago Bulls. Oh, I'm sorry, Andre Drummond. Don't shoot 35% from the free throw line. Or coach, take his ass out because he can't shoot. And they're employing a tactic to beat your heads. by 35 points.

Like, I'm sorry. I absolutely loved the idea that every single possession, every point mattered because people were gunning to actually make it survive in advance in the in-season tournament. I thought that was an incredible wrinkle

for them to add. Again, drink at home, people. This did remind me of Champions League where the aggregate of the goals actually matter. You know, like every, it's not just about winning and losing. It's about the whole thing. Sure.

It's weird that this is becoming a baseball discussion almost where it's like the unwritten rules of the game, which baseball I don't really follow much as even rejecting against. Like I don't have time for that. I think the actual conversation is, or at least a good conversation topic, is does this give an advantage to the teams that are playing on the last day who have the opportunity to know how many points they need to beat their opponent by and thus can get, into the wild card. So the Knicks are a prime example of this. They beat the Hornet so badly that they

vaulted over the calves and the magic. The magic did not play last night and thus they get the fourth spot in the east. Well, yeah, it's an advantage. But as long as there's five teams in every group, there's not really a way around that, right? Like all five teams. The only play four games is I think the big problem that we're not playing every team once and thus point differential probably matters more than in other instances. Well, no, I'm just saying because there's literally only five in each group, so all five can't play amongst each other. Like, right, there's going to be one team that's out in the cold on that last night.

Sure. Also, guys, they knew about the point differential rules, the entire, you know, playing segment of the in-season tournament, right? Like, the entire group play, people knew about point differential. Some people did. Well, okay. The ones you got their work done early certainly did. That's what I'm saying.

I think they didn't care until last night. Exactly. It doesn't become an issue until it's right in front of you, I think, for some of these things. I don't think that's entirely true. I think teams and players were gunning for this stuff in the earlier group play games. You just didn't get quite the same kind of like accounting going on at the end of the games. But they were still trying to push it as far as they could. I absolutely loved it.

I just loved the idea that in the fourth quarter of a game that's, because let's face it, We're used to watching NBA games in November, particularly. When it gets to like 14 points with nine minutes to go in the fourth quarter, we're checked out of that game. We are not completely locked in possession by possession of that game. And players are basically, all right, we've essentially soiled this away. We're just kind of counting the seconds and minutes now. Whereas every possession being like, oh, no, like the defenders are defending

the hell out of us. And Steph Curry is trying to get threes off here. You know, that's just a completely different proposition. And I don't want to, I don't want to glow to take a victory laugh. That's not in my nature, guys, to just, you know, pat myself on the back and do that. But I told y'all, so long as the players treated this like games that they cared about, this would be compelling. Period.

When NBA players go hard, treat games like they matter, it's a compelling product. There's no argument against that fact. I'm watching the heat versus the bucks last night. There's some clear and obvious animosity between those teams. That was a great game. Eric Spolstra fired up from the start yelling at guys. Bam out of bio. Even and again, I know we complained about stars missing games.

Jimmy Butler didn't play in that game. It was still a compelling product. You know what I mean? Like when these guys try their hardest, it's really dope. to watch. And so, you know, I feel vindicated in my, you know, enthusiasm for the in-season tournament, Justin Verrier. Yeah, I was always pro in-season tournament, like the exercise for it. And I actually was on the fence on whether or not the timing of it was the best approach. I have to say, now looking back on it, this was a really great window for it. If only because,

like, these are the type of games that probably fly over casual fans' heads. I do think up until last night, if you were to talk to non-MBA fans, there was still some skepticism or I don't know how plugged in. Like, I even asked a group of NBA editors yesterday before the game started, like, can you tell me who was winning each group and who's ahead and nobody can do it? That probably could be like some education thing that like actually going through this once or twice might ultimately down the road lead to more interesting group play. But last night, there was legitimate juice to what was going on, what this team was doing, what that team was doing and that's great. I think getting

to the knockout play, the knockout play is always going to be awesome. I can't wait for next week, but this phase was the one that I was always worried about. And last night was really good, Rob. Yeah, I think what's important to remember with this tournament is that the formula is inverted

for March Madness, where March Madness is, in a lot of ways, most interesting in the early rounds when really good programs get bounced by inferior teams because they get hot on one night. We haven't gotten to the single elimination part of this bracket yet. So I think now is when it's going to really crescendo, right?

It's can the Pacers have like a knockout offensive game and bounce the Celtics, right? That's when it gets interesting. So we have that ahead of us, but I think as far as what's happened to this point, the games have been competitive, the games have been fun. And most importantly, in making these also regular season games and count against regular season totals, you force every team to be competitive. The Mavericks were eliminated from tournament. contention going into last night's game against the Rockets.

The Rockets had a lot to play for, and Dallas still came out and won and played hard and beat them and spoiled their chances. Yeah. He can't help it. Absolutely. And that kind of motivation is important. Like, how do we get every team on board and make every team have something to play for? And ruining somebody's day could be a pretty powerful motivator in the NBA.

You know, two things. One, if I'm going to be like a Debbie Downer about this, what last night reminded me is what the regular season could be if it wasn't 82 fucking games. Honestly, you can't expect people to do this every game 82 times. You cannot expect this level of effort and buying 82 times a year. Like, people are going to mail in so many games, miss so many games because the season's so goddamn long.

I wish again we would cut the games. same amount of time spent on games, just less games. We'd have the fine days that games are on. It'd be great. I don't feel like doing the freaking regular season is too long spiel too much. And other thing that, you know,

I still can't get over. The courts are awful. I can't. I'm sorry. I hate the courts. It really hurts my eyes as a TV product. You can't watch that on TV and say, this looks good.

It looks bad. The colors are clashing. It's horrible. But yeah, everything else is fantastic. So do you want to redesign or do you just want normal standard-issue courts? Okay. The Knicks court, the Warriors court, where it's pretty close to what an NBA court looks like with a modification to it. I'm fine with it.

It's this red and gray in Miami. That's a nasty color pattern. It doesn't even look good and it's hard to follow. the actual action on TV because of it. That's all, yes, make it look distinct, but why does it have to look like an alien court? I don't understand that. It was a good marketing play, I'll say that,

because it got a lot of attention, which is clearly what the NBA was trying to do. And so it accomplished what it set out to do. I think next year, maybe just tone it down just a little bit, like maybe a big old sticker would be fine or something that signifies in season tournament that doesn't just like make it actively weird to watch. And also, like, they became really close to it becoming an issue where Jalen Brown and other people are like, these courts are not like as good as they need to be.

They're a little slippery, more slippery than they need to be. I mean, Dallas didn't even use their court because apparently it wasn't ready in time or maybe they were just like doing something behind the scenes in order to not use it. But like, I agree with Waz. It was an interesting experiment. Don't need it for next year. The other thing, too, was, as you mentioned, like the idea of if you consolidate the NBA regular season, and have set days for competition. You can bring people into your product.

That's another thing we're going to see with the tournament in terms of these knockout rounds. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday next week are going to be tournament only days, which I think is really important. And was part of the important marketing for this group play, too. It was a little bit clumsier with the Tuesdays and Fridays or tournament days,

but every team isn't playing in the tournament because of the scheduling. So it was a little bit more confusing. But now we have a consolidated field We have clear stakes. We have a clear day where you show up in a Saturday night championship where you can watch at the bar with your friends,

you can watch at home. It is now an event. And that's something the NBA just has not had in the regular season calendar in a long time, if ever. What do we think about the field that we ultimately ended up with? We have Pacers, Bucks, Celtics, Knicks in the East, Lakers, Pelicans, Kings, Sons.

Was, is that like a good mix of the type of teams that you want from this thing? Yeah, particularly having the bucks and Celtics as one of the top, you know, teams in the East, two of the top teams in the East Celtics being the current favorite to come out of the East and the Pacers who, you know, we've spent a lot of time praising here on this show, up and coming, the pace, the, just the record-breaking points

that they're dropping this season. I think it's exciting. Of course, the Knicks being one of the three most popular franchises in the league. I know Nick fans are going to travel to Vegas for this thing. And so I think they have an excellent mix right there of the top of the conference, up and coming, plus, you know, just a legacy type of franchise like the Knicks. That's incredible. I think the West, if we gave Adam Silver some truth serum, they're pissed.

Steph Curry's not going to be there. But they've got the Lakers in there. Yeah, Lakers being in there is huge. obviously KD and Devin Booker I kind of selfishly for myself because I'm not going to get to Vegas until you know the semis I wish LeBron and KD were on opposite sides

of the bracket so I could maximize my chance of seeing those guys in the semis and perhaps the finals but no I'm satisfied with this grouping Yeah it's not only a good mix of teams but it's a good mix of stars in terms of where they are in their career You have your LeBron's and your KDs.

You have your Janice's and your Devin Bookers and your Dame Lillard's. But then you have Tyrese Halliborne. You have Deeran Fox. You have Zion Williamson, you know, assuming he's healthy enough to be on the court on a consistent basis. That's what the NBA wants out of this is a chance to not only pit Katie against LeBron, but the reality of them meeting so early is that those guys are going to go toe-to-to-to-to with some other really good and much younger players. And so then you have these not quite passing of the torch moments, but moments where guys can be kind of knighted into NBA

startup on a level where if you haven't been in the playoffs you haven't had that opportunity yet. Yeah, and that's where I was a little bum that the Knicks ended up getting in over the magic first and foremost and definitely maybe even the calves just because it feels like the right

balance here. I'm sure for Adam Silver, he wants the Knicks in every big market team so they could sell this to Netflix for a ton of cash next year. But like for us, I think the best outcome is a Pacers all of a sudden. makes it to the finals. And you have that sort of

Cinderella March Madness sort of spice to this event. And even if the Pacers win or even if they come in second or something like that, then we have a new storyline for the rest of the year where it's like,

well, the Pacers did this in the tournament, can they do it again in the regular season and the real playoffs and yada yada. I think that sort of like up and coming element to me is the most interesting part

because like seeing a guy like Deere and Fox rising through a regular season is a special kind of an enticement to watch a game, but doing it in a tournament fashion, which he's done in past years in NCAA, I think adds a little bit more to that.

And I wonder if that makes an even bigger star and maybe on the level of some of these other guys we're talking about. When you have those sorts of events, you're facilitating all kinds of NBA conversation. We get the event of watching the games themselves. Let's say the Kings and Deeran Fox go on a run here and win the whole thing,

then you're not only talking about can they replicate that in the playoffs? You know, can they correct some of the things that held them back in their run in last year's playoffs? And that either gets you into talking about Deeran Fox as a star and DeMontas a bonus as a star or the supporting cast as an actual basketball product or you're getting into the why, the nuts and bolts of how this team works. And like what is working for them in these big games that is or isn't in the regular

season, that is or isn't in a seven game series? How are these formats different? and what kinds of teams lend themselves to one format or the other, that's all like good basketball fodder. That's more than just who's on the trade block this week and who might be available and how many picks does it take to get them. Also for me, I liked watching how a team like the Bucks newly constructed, sort of reacted in a crunch time moment,

particularly on offense, which has been their bugable forever. ever and watching them execute down the stretch against the Miami Heat. Again, these guys understand defense so well. They execute so well. And the bucks were generating good offense in crunch time. I was like, wow. Wow. We're talking about the same team?

Wow. It was just kind of crazy to see. And some of it was, you know, again, some of it is, just like, yo, we get Chris Middleton on a movement play against a smaller defender with a shit ton of space operating and he gets a beautiful bucket. Another one was just Dame on a pick and roll, finding a guy moving, a couple of swings, good bucket. None of it involved, Yonis, dribbling in isolation against Bam out of bio, 30 feet from the basket.

It was like, wow, like, this is crazy. You know, but we normally we wouldn't see these type of possessions literally until the first round of the playoffs. But to have stakes in November and watch the Bucks test out some new things against defensive pressure, that is really cool and that's really new. I've really enjoyed watching the Bucks in Crunch Time too. I just wish they didn't play so much crunch time at this stage in the season. They've had a lot of like really gutsy comeback wins, but they've had to come back a lot. against the mighty Portland Trailblazers. Or the mighty Miami Heat missing two of their leading scores.

Yeah. Should we talk about the heat, by the way? Yes. Because Jimmy did not play in that game, which how did he get out of playing in that? Even though he clearly isn't long-term injured? Wasn't this the whole point of the stars having to play in these games or it's real? Anyway, but Bam has been on another level this season. Like we could talk about Jaime Hawkeyes and some of these other role players who were stepping up.

We've done that. on previous pods. But, you know, this is just between the three of us. Nobody else is listening here. Yeah, yeah. It's safe. Is Bam better than AD? Or is he having a better season than Anthony Davis?

I get why you ask. I get the premise of the question. I do think, here's the thing about Bam. At this point, he has a more elastic offensive game. Yes. Than AD does. Where he can run the handoff. He can post.

low, he can work the middle of the floor, he's better suited for this kind of like takeover moment, right? Jimmy is out, Tyler Hero's out. The lineups, you know, whether it's starters or bench guys, like, you need to score, bam out of bio. And this was a fault and a flaw in his game for a long time that he didn't necessarily have that go-to offense. Now he does. And it's a credit to the way he's expanded his game over the last few years in particular, the turnaround mid-range stuff, the step-ins into clean jumpers. Like, he's as good at those shots. as any big in the field right now, and he's certainly better for those moments

than Anthony Davis is. And so if we're talking about them as two of the best defenders in the league at their positions, and one of them can do a little more offensively when you need him to, I get why you would ask the question, Justin. I don't know that I can totally get there, but I think it's a fair one to ask.

Bam has been that good. Look, if we're talking about defense, when AD's, right, it's just hard for me to take anybody over AD and what he does when he's, when he's right, when he's trying, when he's locked in and engaged. Offensively, though, he is so much more context-dependent as far as what his teammates are able to set up for him,

space being created by others, attacking, mismatches, et cetera. Like, it's so much more context-dependent than 80 gets the ball, makes a read, makes the right play, kills people. Bam, he's doing the bully ball stuff, which he's kind of always done, which, you know, every now and again he'll, like, power somebody down the rim and he'll dunk it on somebody's head like he's shack creating spaces.

It's like, is this guy 6-8? How's he doing this? But now, especially this season, when people are so afraid of the drive, they're backing way into the paint. And Bam is just like, no, I'm good with the pull-up 14-footer and swishing that.

Like, that's a new dynamic, man. And on offense, he's just better than AD is. He's a better offensive. player than AD is right now. And so I understand the question and is definitely a more respectable question and it ever has been in the past. Bam, he's looking beautiful right now.

Yeah, I don't think this is an is AD bad conversation. It's Bam is elevating into that next class of stardom. And AD is a great player and Bam is proving himself to be more than just like a complimentary All-Star who's going to make some all-defensive ballots. This guy's a legitimate two-way force on pretty much an every-night basis at this point. He's an all-star. our type of player. Yeah, I also think expectations definitely come into

play here. Where AD were starting from a point of he is an MVP candidate and he's fallen off of that. Yes, where it's like we're talking about Bam developing a mid-range jumper AD has had that for years and it's just like we take that for granted. Well, and then if any, he sometimes had it.

Yeah, well, lately, he seemed like he was ready to go back to shooting three-pointers and it had reasonable success to it. And then he just stopped. It's like a weird Ben Simmons thing happening where he's just decided that is no longer part of his game anymore. That to me is still boggles my mind because I've obviously watched him for a very long time and the shot was always beautiful. Like his form is great. I was watching Alvin Gentry run him off pin downs because

he was getting so much of attention. He was basically a giant wing at a certain point of his career. For real. Structurally, he was a big Clay Thompson out there on some of the sets they were running except curling into midrange. Right. And now he's just this big, center and he is so skilled and nimble and has such great hands that like he is among the best punctuation bigs in the league. It's just like, it's just so disappointing to see that that is where his career is offensively because like it was a world of possibilities and now he's just more very good at a narrow set of skills. I feel like disappointing is strong. Like Anthony Davis is still an amazing player and a championship validated player. His jumper definitely

comes and goes in ways that can be a little stark. He doesn't always give you enough takeover offense in the way you might want, but it gives you so much of everything else. I would love to have Anthony Davis on my team if I were a coach or an executive or a teammate. I'm just saying like a guy like Bam is in that conversation too. But like the Sixers game prime example was where it's like AD needed to be MVP AD or at least go toe to toe with Embed and he's clearly not on that level.

That is where the disappointment comes in. I think the problem with AD and his offense is that it's heavily reliant on junk, meaning offensive rebounding, putbacks, and just drawing fouls. And when he's not doing that, like, he's not going to just drain a bunch of jump shots and he's not going to, you know, do the yokech, post move, get to the basket, make a nice drop step jump. That's not how he's going to subsist on offense. Like a lot of it when he's getting to 30

is because he got five or six offensive rebounds and putbacks and he got to the line 12 times. And when he's not doing that, he's not going to score efficiently. Sorry, that's just what it is, but he's still a great player. Well, I can empathize as someone who's diet at this point is also very reliant

on junk. I don't know about you guys, but the takeout game over here is out of control. Yeah. We should talk about the nightcap a little bit too because the kings looked like the warrior. last night. They had the verve, the juice, the energy, the Steph Curry Ball finds energy sort of vibe

to them toward the end of that game. The crowd, like the kings all of a sudden look like the Warriors of old, and the Warriors was look old. And that was like one of the more dispiriting Warriors losses I've seen in a very long time. It was dispiriting for me because Steph is still getting a ton of freaking attention.

And back in the days, the Golden State Warriors could could really punish you while Steph was on the core for over-emphasis on defending staff. Like, they could really make things happen on the Dremont 4-on-3 or Clay Thompson launching from somewhere or Wiggins in the finals attacking little guys,

attacking closeouts, making wide open above the break threes. We're like, now it just seems like, teams could just be like, look, we're taking Steph out the game or we're going to force him to force stuff against two people or forced stuff one-on-one, or, you know, these other guys got to do it. And watching these other guys try to do it,

aside from Moody yesterday, it was kind of just pathetic, to be honest and sad. And, you know, there was a couple of times. There were a couple of possessions where, one, Looney catches the ball with nobody in front of him in the lane. Like, literally, he had to take two dribbles to a layup. And he was just so not thinking, about scoring, he forced a bounce pass. And it kind of got bobbled and tipped. And it was just like,

Looney, just look at the basket. Another time, Steph gets to the lane, draws to Looney, wide open dunk. He could barely get it because in the best of times, this man couldn't jump over a textbook, but he just bricks a dunk. And then other times I'm watching Clayforce stuff. And I'm just like, man, this is tough to watch, man. Meanwhile, the Kings, like, their, their complimentary pieces are constantly stepping up. And so, yeah, it's crazy how that's working. Yeah, it's not good that this game feels as dispiriting for the Warriors and as sad for their state as it does when Wiggins and Clay played pretty well by their

standards this season. This was a good game from those guys. And it still felt that way. And it felt that way because, Justin, I think you're right to zero in on kind of the control dynamic, the energy dynamic between these two teams. It just felt like the Kings had answers. It felt like they were the aggressors. It felt like they were pushing the Warriors buttons

rather than the other way around. And that's where it's kind of hard not to talk about Draymond Green and the way he flew off the handle in this game and kind of lost it. Like kind of lost this game for the Warriors ultimately. And there's a lot to talk about that recently, chokeholds and all. But I also thought Kendra Andrews had a really great report about kind of the state of the Warriors in general over at ESPN.

And in particular, the idea that there are people within the war use who already think that Draymond basically lost them all of last season because of what happened with Jordan Poole. And we obviously know what happened in 2016 with the title. And this isn't anything on that scale, but I'll say that this was a big game and everyone was treating it like a big game up until the moment that Draymond Green just like lost his grip over a series of fouls called or not. And that's that's not acceptable for a veteran of his stature. That felt like the inflection point where in past years,

Dremont does stuff like that and maybe it galvanizes it or Steph and the rest of the guys just overcome it. This time it seemed like it spun them out to the point where like you can even see Steve Kerr being exasperated, pulling Dremont from the game and trying to talk to him afterward. It seems like the Dremont effect is really starting to seep into the team and it's becoming like a dark energy for this team. team and I just look back on the off season where they practically wrote off Draymond punching pool as pool's fall or at the very least pool became the fall guy for this entire thing. And they're like, the resolution they chose if nothing else.

Yeah. Like our chemistry is good now. We've leaned into a direction. We're just going to be the title team that we were in the past and default to that. You fucking empowered a guy that punched a teammate. Like, what were you thinking? Like, this is just, I don't want to go on another Warriors ramp, but they're just, they're mind-numbing these days. I really am so fucking disappointing this team was.

Yeah, I think between the injuries to, again, Gary Payton, the second goes out again. Chris Paul goes out again. So those injuries compounding things, Wiggins just completely falling off a cliff this season or continuing the stuff from his absence of last season, however you want to look at it. The Draymond thing, like, as dispiriting as it is, I, like, I just think the Draymond thing only looks that much worse because these other things aren't working out. The injuries, the Wiggins, that stuff. I don't, because I think Draymond, when he plays, it's still very good. He's still their best defender.

He's still one of the most game-changing defenders in the NBA. Like, I watched him last night break up a three-on-one by himself. You know, like, he's still. capable of making those kind of plays. I think the stuff around it is just not working to the degree that it needs to so that this Draymond stuff doesn't become the death knell of the season. I still have hoped that they could turn it around. But yeah, everything that can go wrong is going wrong right now for this team.

Yeah, they're just not a team that can survive losing Chris Paul for a game like this, losing Gary Payton for a game like this with Draymond playing the way he did down the stretch with just honestly the difficulties that a team like Sacramento presents. This is a tough opponent, as we've seen even in the playoffs for Golden State. They can't just be frittering possessions away and quarters away and points away by doing the same old bullshit. Can we just talk about Steve Kerr for maybe two seconds here? Because I don't want to overdo it because it seems like there's now a pretty typical arc where Warriors fans get really upset with Steve Kerr earlier in the season. And then they figure something out later in the season, everything is fine.

and we're probably on that path again. But why did he bench Moses Moody at the end of that game when he was on fire? Carr does some shit, man. And he has the rings. And so at a certain point, he's infallible. And so he could work through whatever he wants to. But I don't know. He has not had a good four or five months here dating back to Team USA at this point.

Oh, we putting Team USA on Steve Kerr, too. I mean, it wasn't great. You know, there are some coaches who you trust on a big picture philosophical level, but you have a lot of questions about the mechanics of how they make that stuff happen, like the individual decisions that they make. And I think he's kind of in that bucket. I think I would prefer that still to the opposite. The guys who are really good managers of games,

but don't really have a vision of how to run a team or a sense or the emotional intelligence to really manage a whole roster. I still like what Steve Kerr brings to the table, but he invites a lot of questions with rotation decisions, even so some of his comments about players. Like the way he came out and defended Draymond up front, I get why he did it after the chokehold.

But come on. Like you're really feeding into the idea that this is a player who cannot be held accountable. Even if you're going to double back on it later, I just don't, like some of those decisions are very confusing from Steve. He's a little like, Woo-woo.

You know, like in LA, you have a lot of these people that solve just illnesses with crystals. Like, he has a little bit bad. Yeah, it's a little bad energy to his coaching approach, I guess. They need more crystals or better crystals. I'm a big believer in Steve Kerr's basketball philosophy, right? The movement-based offense, the continuity, the egalitarian nature of it, making a bunch of people feel like they have ownership in the enterprise. I'm a big believer in that philosophy.

At the same time, like, when they were doing the thing a few years ago where they're running this with no good players and Steph Curry's on the roster, you're just not running a hundred-picking rolls a game, I understand why people are like, Steve Kerr, that's dumb. Like, I'm sorry, it's Steph Curry. Give them the rock, let them cook. Stop with this woo-woo stuff, as Justin mentioned. The Moody, that to me, there's certain coaches who just refuse to respect young people ever and just empower them.

Like if Clay Thompson were on the role that Moody was, there's no way Kerr is taking him out that game. But I just think, like, certain coaches just hate young guys and just, like, young guys have to pass a threshold before they get this respect and this benefit of the doubt. And I think Kerr is still there with Moody, even if our eyes are telling us like, yo, this kid should have been out there. He's the only one attacking, making open shots. You know, like, it made all the sense that he would be out there. I just think he has a hang up with him, still sees him as a young, quote, unquote, young player and not a proven one. Well, and most importantly, even if he does prove himself a little bit,

Moses Moody is not part of the core. He is not part of the championship warriors, even though, like, he's, He's a valuable player and a part of this ecosystem too, and he's come up in it and he's played with those guys and learned from those guys. But there's always going to be a different level of trust between Kerr and Draymond and Clay and Steph. And I think Wiggins has earned his way

into being a part of that too. But just to put all this stuff in context, like I think we have all these questions about Steve Kerr. Who is the definitively better coach than him? I think we all love Eric Spolstra and his work and admire his work a lot. I was the only person I'm like, hell yeah. But other than that,

like I think Curry is pretty much up there with anybody else in that they make mistakes, but they do a lot of things right. They do a lot of things to elevate an organization. I think you're going to find that that's pretty consistent with even the higher level coaches in the NBA. I will say the contrast of LeBron after losing that Sixers game by so much insinuating

for what feels like the ninth time already this season that something has to change to Steph Curry, just being happy go lucky. and not doing anything was was stark. And I'm sure there's like 90 examples of this same contrast throughout the two guys' history. But I think in most superstars situation, other than Steph,

they would be griping for some changes at this point because we've now seen like not only last season, but now what, like 20 or so games of this season where this thing feels off and I don't really see a pathway to it changing unless something dramatic happened. So congrats to the Warriors for having Steph, his benevolent ass would because otherwise, I think this could get messy very quickly.

Yeah, but to me that's the point, right? That's why to me, Steph is the model superstar. It's that he can be as great as he is and also be as magnanimous as he is. And of course, some people might say that's the gift and the curse, right? I think KG over the years has talked about being more of a Steph and how he wishes he would have agitated more earlier than he did. He's talked about that. Agee as staff is hilarious to me.

I know we're, into the point you're trying to make. As a superstar. Organizationalally, he wasn't throwing people under the bus constantly. He wasn't. Maybe not when he was on all fours barking at opposing point guards. In terms of his own organization, I do take your point. Yes. Leadership wise, right? And so he wish he would have groused more to management.

He wished he would have got, you know, people traded and coaches fired and made demands. And he's never done that. But I don't know. I think to me I'll take the good that Steph brings as a superstar over all of the crap that we get from some of these other guys, man. I mean, look at Kyrie Irvin. I mean, come on. Did you see that press conference?

Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? I wouldn't even know why the Brooklyn thing didn't work out. I don't know. Like, come on, man. Give me Steph all day. The alternatives out there of what quote-unquote stars and superstars do.

superstars his superstars do to your organization listen it's great for the organization I don't know if Steph is loving himself as much as he needs to know he needs to put himself first sometimes over the collective he has to put his own mask on

before he can put it on is that the name of your self-help book put your own mask on no it would it would just be top five podcast bitches hell yeah put that on like a little a little badge New York Times bestseller style

Little badge on our podcast logo, please. I said, bitches. All it comes down to as a result. Doesn't matter if you completely carve out your life. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandual, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money line bet.

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that expire seven days after receipt. See terms as sportsbook. Fandul.com. All right. Lamella Ball. the player that probably should have been on the Warriors isn't going to be playing at all in the near future because once again he's suffered

what Shamsarani is describing as a serious sprain in his right ankle. Obviously, Lamello missed most of last season with ankle issues. He had surgery on it and is likely to miss extended time at this point. Rob, pretty bad. Obviously, the Ornitz were in a tough spot already. I don't know if their season was going to go

anywhere this year, but I am starting to worry long term about what's ahead of them. Yeah, especially because the ankle things are now a pattern for Lamello, right? I don't think we're at young step levels just yet, but a track record of significant ankle injuries, not just little tweaks where you step on somebody's shoe, but a real problem with season altering repercussions. That's bad. That's really bad for a player that's this important for a player that Charlotte relies on to be awesome on a nightly basis. And to be clear, Lamello's been awesome this season, really elevated his game too. It hasn't led to team-wide results in the way that you necessarily need if you're

Charlotte at the stage in the season. And certainly that you're going to need if you're going to weather his absence. I genuinely don't know what they're going to do without him. It sucks. I think all of us were looking forward to him playing a lot more games this season because he's missed so much time. Doesn't seem like the Charlotte Hornet season as a team is going very far, but Lamello was the one bright spot, right?

And so the fact that he's not going to be out there is disheartening. I, you know, the thing about ankles, too, is that they do heal, you know, and he can come back and make a full recovery. So that's the one silver lining in this cloud. But yeah, it sucks that he's missing all this time again. The other thing, too, with him specifically, you know, I think this was a conversation with Steph as well in terms of the style of play and the stress it puts on your ankles.

The unconventional way that Lamello moves, and in particular the way he sees the game and the creativity he plays with, that's not a guy you want having a little voice in the back of his head saying, maybe don't take that step. Maybe don't take that, like, unusual angle to try to get to the rim. You want him to have the whole court in all possibilities ahead of him. to make the most of everything he can do.

And the more these things continue to happen, the more is going to be hampered not just by the injury, but the idea of the injury. So last night, the Hornets scored 91 total points. The high score Brandon Miller with 18. I have to say they're on quite a heater of a run here, the Hornets,

with all the bullshit that they've been going through lately. I don't need to list it, but the listener probably knows here. We typically do the no power rankings later in the season, but I kind of wanted to do a temp check for you guys in terms of long-term, like the long-term outlet for the worst teams in the league. Do you think that the Hornets are won? I can give you my list, but I want to seat the floor here first.

Long-term future, you mean? Yeah. So if we're looking out from here, let's say two to three seasons down the road, like who has the worst outlook? Nobody beats the Wizards. That's true. Nobody beats the Wizards. They got nothing right now.

Nothing. They don't even have a lamellible. ball. I think they got too much something is what they got, but they're sorting their way through that too. And the wizards, man, and the wizards in the hornage to me, they're like both, not only are things bad, but to me what compounds the badness is the irrelevant. If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound element to it where nobody gives a shit about your team? Like, nobody cares. Nobody's paying attention. There's just nothing going on to be excited about with those franchises.

And the general apathy that surrounds it is just tough. At least the Bulls, they have this history. Even if it's based on literally an eight-year span in the midst of like 60 years of a franchise, it's just based on eight years. But they have that eight years. They have that history. They have those six titles. have the association with Michael Jordan.

So as bad as things get this, still this, they still carry this prestige and mystique around the franchise because they are the Chicago Bulls. And to a lesser extent, the same can even be said about the Pistons. They have a history of excellence and getting things done.

The Hornets and Wizards of none of that. They got Bubis. If they ceased to exist. They got Grandmama. They got Grandmama. And Mugsy Boles. The starter jackets were beautiful in the 90s. Great branding.

But distressingly little All-Star and All-NBA representation historically, especially if you take Lamello out of it. They've made the playoffs three times in the last 19 seasons. They haven't made it out of the first round since 2002. And, was, I agree, there's a bigger problem here in terms of the consciousness around the team, especially when you take Lamello off of it because he's hurt. Lamello ball is one of the most popular players in the, NBA, especially among the younger demographic, there's always going to be people who are plugged

into what he's doing. When Lamello isn't playing, the Hornets might as well slip into a black hole. And that's a team with a lot of good veteran players on it, but doesn't play well without him, doesn't have a draw without him, doesn't have a chance of attracting like a consistent audience without him. And so if that team is playing, very few people actually know about it. And maybe that's for the best because they're about to lose a lot of games. Yeah.

So I have the Hornets fourth. So fourth worst in terms of like a no power situation. If only because they just drafted Brandon Miller and people have expectations for him. So they went through the hard losing already and thus maybe they have a second win to them if Miller can be anything. I have the Wizards first, as I think you guys might agree, if only because Jordan Pool not being able to put up empty calorie points is a number. new low in NBA basketball. He has every opportunity to shoot as much as possible

to just average 30 points a game, do whatever the hell you want, do the weird social clips where you're just throwing some shit up. We could deal with that as long as you're just like... With the smoke coming out of the nose emoji? Yeah, exactly.

The fact that he can't do that is dark. Like, you're starting to hear the whispers now that like he was never going to be the next face of the franchise, which I think he very much thought he was going to be, and that they were going to try to rehab his value and then flip him. I don't even

think you could do that at this point. Who wants that? I think that was a bogus report. Was it? I think the thing about the rehab, like, they're going to use him as a trade piece was like a ball sack sports style invention. You want to hear a real whisper? Here's the real whisper.

Bull was never any fucking good at all anyway. That's the That's the whisper. That's just loud now. The guy was never a winning player, period. So he was never going to come to the Wizards and show some rasmataz with the opportunities being hired. When again, the context was way better in Golden State. He's going to go to a much worse context and be better.

Jordan Poole was? Come on, y'all. But that's where we were at least hoping for some empty calorie production. And the only thing apparently worse than empty calorie, is no calories. You're just not even scoring in this context at all in a way that... You just starve to death. Right?

Washington Wizards Basketball. Buy your season tickets now. I will say Kyle Kuzma is having the season that I thought Jordan Poole would have. Kyle Kuzma's a real NBA player. Yeah. Kyle Kuzma's done it in the biggest moments of the NBA playoffs,

like in like real positions, real defense, real, like, understanding of offense, not being a complete knuckle. head. He's a real player. Jordan Poole is like yeah, let me throw it behind my back, step back every once out of 12 times

it goes in so I get my Instagram highlight, move on with my life. So I have the Wizards 1, I have the Pistons 2, which are we ready for the Cade Cunningham discussion? It's coming, but they have Cade Cunningham who is at least a young prospect who is

talented and TBD on if he's like a number one guy or a number two guy or like a facilitator on a really good team, whatever that ends up being. Do the Chicago Bulls even have that? Yeah, so I have the Bulls at three. And I also wonder if the Bulls do rip the Band-Aid off and go with the rebuild. Like, what are they after the fact?

It's over. Guys, it's over. It's over. Once Billy Donovan started having to answer a bunch of awkward, uncomfortable questions in press conference, it's over. You're done. You no longer have control. of what's happening on that team.

Zach Levine openly disrespecting you in public. It's a rap. It's a done deal. This iteration of the team is not, they're not going to turn it around. There's not going to be a new attitude. There's not going to be some spark. It's over over there.

They need to just move on with their lives and start on the road to something different. You know, they got to get on the road to Damascus, Rob. Here's the problem with that. It's even if they do get on with their lives. The trade market for Zach Levine has not been booming, I would not say. DeMar de Rosen would have a market, but I don't know that you're getting a huge superstar package for him. And Nikola Vucovich, obviously, similar case.

So what is really left here? Caruso, baby. And Kobe White, I mean, I assume Caruso would be on the way out as well. Like, he's an attractive player to other teams, especially contending teams. But even if you trade away all of those guys. how many picks or good young prospects to build around are you actually getting? Not just, oh, this guy could be the seventh best player on an eventual playoff team and is young and therefore is interesting to us. But like actual foundational pieces.

And that's what makes me push them higher up our, you know, kind of hinted no power rankings here. When you haven't even started the tear down that's going to lead to the rebuild where you would actually know what rebuilding prospects you have, it's looking pretty bleak. Everything is very distant for the Bulls at this point. Yeah, there might be a market correction coming from these superstar trait packages that we've seen. Obviously, some organizations pushing back in recent months. We'll see if it continues on when like a clear cut Janus type player gets on to the market. But yeah, I think for the Zach Levine's, you're going to have to deal with an Austin Reeves in a pick and be happy with it, you know, which Austin Reeves looking pretty good these days.

I don't know if you've seen them. Definitely trending up. dredging up yeah uh let's talk about this this mab's sale question mark before we go here so uh mark cuban weird story coming out of nowhere yesterday that he's going to sell according to uh mark stein on his substack uh is going to sell in quotes a significant stake of the team we assume that's majority ownership uh to lost Vegas billionaire miriam madelson uh but he's going to keep some of an ownership stake so he'll still be invested in the team but weirdly he's also going to be in control of basketball ops going forward.

Rob, is this making waves in your Dallas group chats? Can anyone figure this out? Well, I mean, Miriam Adelson's political donation history is making waves in the group chats. I will say that. You know, you know about Shelley. You know about Shelley Aedelson. Come on now. I know the vibes.

Yeah, there's a lot to dig into there. this is a very strange ownership arrangement. The idea that Mark Cuban is still going to have basketball operations control. Does this basically make Mark Cuban a glorified vice president of basketball ops? Yes, Rob. The reason why it sounds strange to you is because it's spin. So what? They gave Mark Cuban $3.5 billion.

They're allegedly going to build a new stadium and so that they could have Mark Cuban still run the team? No, he's going to run the team for like probably a year or so. And he's out of there. He no longer will have an affiliation. I'm not convinced of that. I'm not convinced of that. I think this is a drug front basically where like Cuban is going to be the face of this.

He's divesting enough from there so that he can go off and do something else. Potentially run for president of the United States. Good for him. He no longer is in control of this team, y'all. they're trying to pitch this as a merger when in reality if you pay attention to anything there's no such thing as mergers

there are only hot-out takeaways yes he no longer owns this team y'all that's it all of this spin about yeah I'm still in a basketball capacity as if anybody with any sense is going to go in there see what Mark Cuban's management has wrought and be like

yeah I now run this I now have the capacity to run it how I want, and I'm going to keep doing it how Mark Cuban does it. Yeah, right. He's done. It's over. Nobody pays people $3.5 billion to be like, no, but you still get to have it. That doesn't make any sense, guys. Yeah. The franchise is valued around 3.5. I don't know how much he's going to end up making from this. It's going to be enough so that it doesn't have to go on Shark Tank anymore, which apparently he's not doing anymore in addition to this.

How are you feeling about that? I know Shark Tank is an important part of your life. I love Shark Tank and I in particular love Mark Cuban on Shark Tank I've watched a ungodly amount of episodes of that during the pandemic and I have to say

I'm kind of hurting here I'm gonna miss them Wow that's crazy that's tough But no the weird part about all of this is that apparently there were designs before this agreement became official or whatever version it is

in now where like he had always planned on building a new stadium that was part casino and resort with this company to begin with the Sands Corporation, which Maria Madison is in charge of. And so, like, I don't know if it's like a weird setup so that she can take the burden of that. And he does all the things that he wants to. If this is just, like, divesting enough from all of these certain things so he can go run for president. But, like, it's a very bizarre thing that I can't remember ever happening in sports.

It's not bizarre. It's, it's spin. Like, he no longer has a majority stake. in the team. He's done. He's finished. He's sold out. He's done. And again, he's doing this face-saving thing about, yeah, I'm still going to be here. I'm like, no, you've cashed out. It's a rap. They don't just let you keep and run things after they pay you out for it. It doesn't work like that. Like now Mark Cuban exists within the Dallas Mavericks at the pleasure of

Miriam Adelson. When she no longer wants this guy to be a part of what they're doing, he's out of there. It's now her thing, not his. I think the question is whether or not his agreement to run basketball ops is in the contract for a set length versus whether or not he is an employee

of Adelson at this point. It comes down to the terms, ultimately, I think. Well, it sounds like he's technically still a minority governor in the team. Right. He's just sold a majority stake in the Mavericks while maintaining this control. I think what makes me a little suspicious of the idea that he's just like out, out, and this is all a face-saving front waz.

Some of it is Mark Stein's reporting on this, and Stein is as plugged in in Dallas as anybody as plugged in terms of understanding Mark Cuban as anybody. And one of the things that he noted in his report was that even though this valuation for the MAVs is lower than you might expect. And for example, this valuation at like 3.5 billion is less than what Phoenix was just valued at for its sale with Matt Ishpia at like around 4 billion or over 4 billion. Why should the MAVs be worth more than Phoenix? I think championship franchise in a significantly bigger market.

Now it's a market where you're competing with the Cowboys, which is not necessarily an advantageous thing. But I think there's a different level of history and there's a different level of potential in a market like specific, like the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex more broadly is enormous. But Stein's reporting seemed to suggest that Cuban would be more open to a lower valuation because of this unique arrangement, because he still has some measure of control. And I agree that in general there aren't such things as mergers, but I also think that rich guys like owning things and they like owning sports teams and they like having it be their

thing and being involved with this. Al's do too. They certainly do. This rich gal, though, is rich enough that she's got lots of shit already. The Mavs are a much smaller piece of Miriam Madison's life than they are Mark Cuban's life. And especially if he isn't doing Shark Tank and, yeah, we'll see what his political future is or whatever Mark Cuban decides he wants to do with all this newfound free time and certainly new money that he has at his disposal. But I still think he wants to be a part of this. But that's just my read from kind of 10,000 feet.

It just seems unlikely that Mark Cuban got billions of dollars for everything to remain exactly the same. Oh, it won't remain the same. We know that. That doesn't make any sense. Maybe he just wants to spend more time with all of his Shark Tank investments. This dude, like, probably invested in, like, hundreds of companies over his run as a Shark Tank guest. And I'm just like, at what point, like, does he even have time to talk to these people? They always do those videos of, like, him coaching.

through the young guy through their like scrub daddy meetings or whatever. And I'm just like, this is the only time this dude has ever talked to these people since they've been on the show. Yeah. Do you have a favorite Mark Cuban shark tank investment that could replace his level of interest and investment in the Mavs? Like, are you a dude wipes guy? What is your go-to? I have used dude wipes before. I really don't need to know that. No, but I am a big, I'm a big Bambas guy, which isn't a Mark Cuban investment. There's socks. They're like, yeah, they're like nice socks. It's, um, they're like, they, they've definitely had a podcast run at one point.

I got some bombless socks at the crib. Yeah, they were like a milk chimp of socks. Yeah. They invented nice socks. They didn't invent nice socks. They just make nice socks. And they also give like a pair for whatever you buy one to people who don't have socks. Okay.

Now there's a pitch. Now we're getting somewhere. Yeah, they're big in the sockless community. I'm wearing them right now as we speak. We need to do NBA sharks. tank on one of these pods. You know, take turns pitching each other, trying to see if we can get some buy-in on getting some real ideas off the grounds.

Just that's a little bit for you for later, Justin. I like that idea. All right. But let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely, even though you didn't have the Ringer NBA show as number one in your Spotify wrap this year. We will be expecting that to change next year. It was at least in his top five this year, though.

That's huge for us. We appreciate the progress. Still not good enough. We eclips the N.F. NFL this year. Thank God for that. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Sunday. See you then. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem call 1-800 gambler or

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