The Ringer NBA Show - Addressing Cathy Engelbert’s Comments, MVP Contenders, and the Lynx’s Playoff Potential | Ringer WNBA Show

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

Seerat is joined by The Athletic’s James Boyd to talk about the Fever’s recent play and Caitlin Clark’s continued impact on the league (1:38). Then, writer Katie Heindl joins to talk through the fallout of Cathy Engelbert’s CNBC comments and discuss what happens next (53:35). And lastly, reporter Mark Schindler hops on to discuss the Lynx’s playoff potential and who he thinks will take MVP this season (1:24:26). Host: Seerat Sohi Guests: James Boyd, Katie Heindl, and Mark Schindler Producer: Erika Cervantes Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, your boy Johnny Bananas here. The Challenge Season 40 Battle of the Eras is finally upon us. I'll be covering every episode with all your favorite challengers on my podcast, death taxes and bananas on the Ringer Reality TV podcast feed and on the brand new Ringer Reality TV YouTube channel where you can find full video episodes all season long. So buckle up. Come along with me as we see who will be crowned winner of the Challenge Season 40 Battle of

the eras. Follow Ringer reality TV on Spotify and subscribe to us on YouTube. Welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I'm Sir Rih Tsohy, your host. Really excited for today. We have a great episode. We got James Boyd of the Athletic on to talk about Caitlin Clark, Aces Fever, Aja Wilson, breaking the all-time single-season scoring record. Then we welcome on Katie Hindle to talk about WNBA Commissioner Kathy Engelbert's recent comments on CNBC, the fallout of those comments. And then we bring on Mark Shinly. after that to talk about the Minnesota links who I think are basically not even at this point a Dark Horse Championship contender, but one of my favorite teams to watch this season and

Nefisa Collier's being in the MVP conversation because Asia Wilson is the MVP this season, but man, Collier, any other season might be giving her run for her money. Without further ado, let's get started. Our first guest today, very excited to welcome James Boyd of the Athletic. covers the Indiana Pacers, the fever, the Colts. He is in the center of one of the most fascinating storms in sports right now. And probably what has to be one of the coolest sports cities right now as well, just between everything that's going on there, especially with basketball,

Tyrese Halliburt and Caitlin Clark, all at the same time. I also, I noticed James, like, you are, like, maybe we can tease a future story here. because one thing I want to ask anybody who's in Indiana is just like what was your holy shit moment what was this like I did see that you were on on Twitter asking people if they had not in Indiana who had not been to a fever game how it has changed their lives their viewing experiences also if you're one of those people reach out to James but I'm just I'm curious what on the on on a holistic living in this city level this has all been like for you yeah it's been crazy I'm actually helping out who you know ben pickman he's doing a story on the Caitlin Clark effect and things like that. Let him, you know, handle the bulk of that. Obviously, I'm in cold season right now. But just doing my part trying to help out the team. But from a resident of Indianapolis, I've been here the last four years. This is my third season covering the fever on and off. So pre-Alea, pre-Katlin, I was there. And to see the games go from where the media sits, you know, right behind one of the baskets.

You can hear all the play calls. You can hear all the coaches talking. The, you know, loudest day or biggest day is when they have kids camp day. And it might have been a couple thousand students there, like 12 or whatever. So now every single game is sold out no matter what time of the day, no matter what day it is. And all you see is 22 jerseys. And I've asked people around here what it's been like seeing Kail and Clark blow up like this. and the name you hear often is Peyton Manning.

And those who've been around here for a long time will tell you that downtown Indianapolis wouldn't look the way it does without Peyton Manning coming here, being a star, and kind of changing the landscape of a city. And so just like we saw his 18 number everywhere on Game Day when he's at the height of his powers, all you see is 22 everywhere.

Men, women, boys, girls, pets, you name it. They're all wearing that number. And I think it's really exciting because, to my knowledge, I believe every game has been sold out, if not super close to being sold out. It sounds like a playoff game, every game. And obviously it was rough at the beginning of the season, but as of late, I mean, every time Caitlin hits like one of those long threes, your ears pop. So I'm just curious to know, you know, if they are able to, you know, they clinch the playoffs spot, but if they're able to, you know, win a game and get back home for potential game three, want to take all in the first round, how loud would it be at Gamer's field? because that's how much Caitlin has changed it alongside Leah Boston and others. Dude, like, it's, it's incredible to watch.

I have to ask, was that hyperbole, the pet thing? Because I do think that a Caitlin Clark jersey that was pet size, cat, dog size, like that would sell. That would be just off the shelves immediately. No, it's actually not hyperbole. I mean, everything with her that I thought was hyperbole or could be hyperbole has been dismissed. I mean, everything that you could imagine, even if I went to,

a Dick's sporting goods store and just going in and buy some stuff and the guys telling me, yeah, like, all it's killing Clark stuff you see, like, that's outselling everything we ever had for like Pacers. And this was before the season had even started. They were pre-ordering all this stuff. And then now, again, every time you go into the store, I mean, everybody's buying that 22 jersey where there's the red one, the white one, the blue one. I mean, I feel like they couldn't order enough jerseys because that's all anybody wants. And it's really, really cool and just the conversations I've had even myself. Like, I still play basketball downtown at the YMCA and you'll have a lot more conversations

among men too about the fever and what's going on with them. And they're asking me like, hey, when's the last time you ran to Caitlin Clark and what you really like and all these things like that? So it's really cool. And if anything, it just, man, it puts me my feel some days because I'm like, there's a bunch of kids who came to these games and, you know, their parents gave them the memory of a lifetime. And that's what kind of brings me back to why I love what I do because, yeah, it's cool that Caitlin is the bigger deal she is, but the effect she had on the kids, the people around

her is incredible for the most part. And a lot of it is positive. Like, I've seen, no joke, grown women like cry after getting her signature. Every time you go to a game, there is somebody with a sign saying I came from however many miles away to watch you do your thing. And she has a good perspective on that and certainly doesn't take it for granted. is it is truly really special to watch i love what you said about you know anything that you could think would be hyperbole has just been shattered at this point um because it feels like that's really what this fever season has become um just you know after that one and eight start they have now clinched to playoffs uh we're having conversations about katelyn that i just couldn't imagine us having

two months ago even a month ago even honestly like even like for yeah like it's it's just the rate of improvement has been incredible we have now gone from having a rookie of the year conversation to an MVP conversation. ESPN just put out an article the other day ranking Caitlin's rookie season among other great rookie seasons. They rank her third behind Candace Parker and Tamika Ketchings, another fever legend. It's just the she's just she's chart topping. Once again, it's like that's a word you use all the time with Caitlin. But it just, she just blows, she's blowing her own expectations that were very high out of the water. Some now. There are still, she's a rookie. She's 22 years old. There's still a lot for her to learn.

We'll get into that. We wrote a great column, but it's just, it's so fun to just watch the same thing happen here in Indiana that was happening in Iowa because it just brings all this electricity, this energy, this potential. They have a playoff run potentially. That to me is actually going to dictate where she should end up as far as like all-time rookie rankings go. I don't think you can, I don't think you can get to Candace level. I just, like that's just, that season was just incredible. I'm not going to pretend I was there or that I was watching it closely at the time. But having done the dive that I've done now, it's just like she was like LeBron, you know,

it's just in terms of like how she changed the game, everything that she was able to do coming off back-to-back titles in college. That one, I think, is pretty untouchable. Also, just winning MVP in the same season with, we got. So crazy. We got, yeah, that's insane. That is insane. But we got, we got Asia Wilson this season.

So unfortunately, I just don't think that's going to happen for Caitlin. It's just like, we got to. We'll talk about Asia too, definitely. You were at fever aces last night, and you also wrote a great column on Friday after the fever's loss to the links, where you basically, you talked about that loss being a leadership, a growth opportunity, for Caitlin. The fever are now one and two in their last three games. Like just a, you know, a brief blip in Paradise, it feels like.

Caitlin looks a little bit tired these days. We'll talk about that too. But I just wanted to get a sense of what you were seeing on Friday that made you write that column. And just your overall, where's your panic meter at? I don't think we need to be like all the way in the red by any means. We're getting off green. We're getting off green. We're somewhere else right now.

Yeah, I'm definitely not panicking with what I've seen from this team over the last week or so. Obviously, they would like to have picked up that went last night against the Aces, but then things like Asia Wilson happened. And even when she has an off night, she still has, by everyone else's standards, a pretty good night. And so going back to the Friday game against the links, I think what stood out to me was Caitlin plays with this five. this edge. I actually don't think that she's a very nice

person on the court. And that's fine. I think we should embrace that actually. I think that sometimes women's sports that can be viewed as like this negative thing. And I'm like, nah, me, I am team petty. I am a me. I'm an honest hater. Like, I like all of it. All the smoke, bring it to the court, like settle it that way. Let's do it. But it's honestly kind of my favorite thing about her. I know it's good for the, for her game and for her team and just for like the general, when your leader is just like kind of flying off the handle, it's obviously doesn't have like the greatest trickle down effect on your team. But I will say, and this is just

just by like the like the tiniest degree because the experience is still incredibly entertaining. The Caitlin Clark experience was a little bit more fun when she was a little bit more of a loose canon. Like I think when I think about just pure entertainment value, I think her junior season, between where she just couldn't she just had no like temperament at all she's going up to crowds she's like she's like putting your ear out to the crowd she's like telling the

booze to get louder the context in which she exists has changed too I think she has gone from kind of being a little bit more of a heel figure to just being like widely loved as well so that that sort of feedback loop doesn't exist anymore but yeah it's awesome yeah and to that point they've still worked with her so much about her

mannerisms her body language and in that particular game against the links, you're facing a great team, you're going against another MVP candidate, and by that, before everybody kills me for this, I think Asia Wilson should win MVP unanimously. However, there's a ballot, and on the ballot, you got to put other people on it. And so I think that Caitlin should probably end up being a fifth place finish or fourth or whatever you want to put her, but she's probably going to be on that ballot. All that to say, there was a play, and I believe in the second half where she just quit. Like, she thought she got filed by Nefisi Collier. She did not feed. She just.

packed her stuff and headed the other way. And for like two or three seconds, Caitlin just laid on her back and looked at the ceiling in the middle of the game. And it looked like, I was like, what are you doing? Like your team's competing. And I think those moments are when sometimes your emotions and your fire

can be a little bit too much to, I don't know how to describe it. Like it's too much to contain or be a positive for your team, if that makes sense. And so after writing, what I believe has been many glowing articles about Caitlin and how great she's been, that was a time where I'm like, you know what, someone needs to write that you have to probably behave better or this is a learning opportunity for you. And I asked her about it after

the game. She admitted it. And Chrissy Sides even said, hey, our point guard has to keep a cooler head than that. And it's a learning curve for her. And I gave a lot of grace in the piece. She came back and played well to end the game, gave them a chance to win. But it's like those little moments where you just can't have it overloaded. you to be so passionate or so frustrated or so upset with the reps where you can't, you know, actively be involved in the game you're playing. And so it's not a huge deal to me. It's something that she has to continue to work on. And I think it's something that she's going to have to carry with her her entire career because it makes her who she is. And what's

funny is with all the, you know, animosity I see among the fan bases when it comes to, you know, Diana Tarazzi fans and Killen Clark fans, every time you ask anybody, how Caitlin Clark acts, they tell you she acts like Diana Taranzi. And so you can see it if you watch both players compete because they're both, they're not always nice. I mean, to be frank, like, they're assholes sometimes. It's just what it is. And that, to me, is okay within reason,

but you also have to dial it back at times to make sure you're helping your team. No, they absolutely are. And it's such a good point you make because I do think, and we're going to talk about Kathy and like her comments a little bit later in the podcast. but I do think that there is a sort of, not all fans, and honestly, I think this is more of a media construction.

It's almost like a right-wing media construction of putting Caitlin on this pedestal that actually flattens out some of the coolest things about her, some of the most humanizing, interesting things about her that, like, needs to separate her from all of the other athletes in the W in a way that actually is very shallow and doesn't really allow you to, get the full picture of who she is and what she's going to face throughout the course of her entire career. Like, Christy Seid's also made the Diana Tarasi comparison too.

And it's also, I mean, it's also something that she shares with her biggest foil in Angel Reese. Like, what is the biggest reason that those two even, you know, had any conflict in all on that national title game is because they both talk trash. You know, like, it is something that they both have, but there is this sort of thing that I've noticed. just in the course of watching all of this happen is like there's almost there's like using Caitlin as a way to just to put down the other athletes right and it just doesn't make any sense because it doesn't really come from an honest understanding of who Caitlin is oh absolutely I think people want to I've dealt with this a lot being a reporter and trying to get better as some of my mentors have taught me

is like you study behavior more than you study like Stacks if that makes sense. So, you know, anybody can Google Kately and Clark Stacks. She's an amazing player, but you can't Google who she is. So when I'm, you know, the times I've been around her and now it's been more times than I can remember, it's trying to decipher, okay,

here's this really, really talented basketball player, but who are you and or what parts of you make you that person and then what parts of you make you, you know, who you are off the person? court or who you are before you get between those lines. And so it is, you know, disheartening sometimes to see people, you know, view certain parts of her and then try to put it all into this one lane. And it's like, no, you know, humans are complex. And I think that when it comes to really, really high level athletes, they're extremely complex when it comes

to dealing with the expectations, the pressure, the joy, the passion. And I would like to say when I watch Caitlin, it's like, it's usually this control. old rage. She's just not nice on the court, and I love it because, I mean, how many times seriously can any of us go into our day-to-day jobs and kind of

have that edge and wear it proudly and compete directly against whatever opposition that you're facing? That to me is really cool and really interesting. And so there have been times where I think that, you know, she's been looked at as someone who needs to be super duper protected, you know,

because she's the savior of the league and it's like probably not. It's probably not true. And on the other hand, it could be instances where at these, I see people try to discredit what she's done because it's like,

oh, we've had great players before. And it's like, yes, we've never seen anything like this. Like, this is different. And it's okay to recognize

both ends of the spectrum without going to the furthest extent of both spectrum. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, completely, completely. And I think it's an interesting thing, too.

Like, when you talk about like, okay, what is, is all of this happening because of Caitlin? is all of this happening? It was this due to the growth of the WNBA.

I think there's truth to both ends of it. Absolutely. I think one of the best articles that I think summed it up is it was on Sports Illustrated. Man, oh my gosh, I'm blank. Kate Fagan. Kate Fagan wrote an article a couple years ago about how the WNBA explosion is coming. And it's because the league is basically ready for it. It was a little bit ahead of its time with an athlete like Diana Tarasi was never going to pop off that way in 2004 due to a lot of reasons.

And also, you know, society, like the evolutions that we've made as a society as far as, like, you know, all the things that, like, allow the W to be a more authentic version of itself and be marketable that way. It was a great article because I think it was like, it came out a couple years ago, but it kind of nailed it. It's like, once this next great transcendent athlete comes up, we're not ready for it. So anybody who's actually interested in that topic, I know it's like a big one that we, like, that has talked about a lot. I should actually go back and read that article. I think it just, like, lays a lot to light. But I also do think that so much of this momentum is about Caitlin, but for reasons that actually get to a lot of,

like, what the W players have been advocating for and talking about, because there's something about Caitlin that, like, I think she tows this line of being transgressive without being dangerous to the status quo in a lot of ways. Like, there's something about seeing a woman be so angry and be so emboldened and justified in her anger that I think is appealing. And for some people, like, new to see on the screen, not for everybody, but demographically,

nothing about who she is poses an outward threat to the status quo. So it's just like thread that she's been able to needle alongside. I would also add, I do think, I believe in all that stuff, but at the same time, I do think at the end of the day, the biggest thing is also the game.

Like, she plays like Steph, and we saw this happen in the NBA. When Steph Curry came onto the scene, when Steph Curry was at Davidson, you couldn't get away from him. You just, you didn't want to. Like people living in the, East Coast, we're ruining their sleep schedules to watch that guy play because it was just like,

what is he going to do next? And I think that above all else, Caitlin just has the game. You know, she has the logo range. She has the shooting. She has all of this incredible stuff. So it's obviously, it's a mix of a lot of different things, but I think that a big part of it is just like this sort of, she is the right, she's like the right image in the right time as far as like, just being able to tow that line, like one of her, like one of her favorite artist, Taylor Swift, also kind of reminds me of that. I think that's a big reason that she's like a mainstream success as well, is like she toes that line as well. Like she speaks to certain aspects of womanhood and like is like somewhat new in that way. But is also just kind of not in a lot of others. And yeah, it's just it's a,

It's a really interesting thing to me. It's really interesting. And I think that, I don't know. I don't know. That's my take. Yeah, no, I hear you. I think sometimes when we look at the athletes that we love to watch, we would love to have them step up and say the things that we think we would say

if we were in their shoes, whatever issues. It could be political. It could be societal. It could be anything. And with Caitlin, she does. walk that line where she never strays too far away from upsetting, I guess, general America, if that makes sense. And it helps with marketability. I can't lie to say it doesn't. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's certainly a factor. But to your point, the fandom that we see, I think,

is because of the way the game is played. I've been fortunate to see Steph Curry play in person a few times. I worked in the NBA for a while, and it's funny because no one remembers this. I'll remember this because I live in Indiana. The game before he broke the three-point record, he tied the record here in Indiana. And so the national media all descended upon Indiana for this game. The patient actually played him pretty good that day. It went to overtime, I think. And like, so I had never been around a player, seriously, where the crowd breathed in and out with every shot that he took. I remember when the Pacers cut the lead down in this game,

and people were hoping that he would just break it in Indiana because they were on jeopardy of losing the game if they didn't play him anymore. He got off the bench. Damn, he hadn't even walked into the game yet, and the crowd just started roaring. And I was like, this is unbelievable. Like, I've been to games with LeBron, Janice, Jiamer,

like all these people who are super exciting, but that's a different level. And then with Caitlin, I would say it's very, very similar to how she affects the crowd, how she affects the field of the game. And, you know, when it comes to some of the off-court stuff, you know, some people would love for her to be more outspoken, but that's just not how she's going to be, in my opinion. Now, I've covered her for a few months now.

I don't think she's ever going to be somebody that, you know, steps out there and says all these things. And to be honest, most athletes do not. You look at Patrick Mahomes and the NFL, the biggest star in their league, he comes out and says, hey, I encourage you to vote, vote forever you want. he's not going to go come on and endorse anybody. Caitlin Clark, after liking the Taylor Swift endorsement of Kamala Harris,

did not come out and endorse Kamala Harris. She just said, hey, go out and boat. Like, she does this thing where she, you know, acknowledges that she's aware of something. But then, you know, again, kind of keeps it to where she can potentially usually keep all parties, you know, in a, you know, likable state. And that could be hard to do sometimes. And as I'm sure we'll get into, there's other times. but you cannot just, I guess, default to, hey, you know, do what you believe or do what you say or whatever,

whatever. And I'll just stick to basketball. There's certain instances where you've got to have a little bit more umph in whatever you're saying. And I certainly experience it firsthand here in Indiana. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a, the, the Taylor thing was interesting too because I think that it was also one of these moments where Caitlin is also one of these athletes that is like tasked with meaning everything to everybody at once. And I think with a.

certain segment of her fan base, we saw it in her Instagram comments after she liked the post, we're turning on her. And I do wonder if there's a part of her that, you know, is worried about chipping away the fantasy version of her that some fans have created in their minds. And if, if not that, then there's also, I mean, there's got to be just, it's just the way that media works now, the way that social media works now, there is so much pressure to conform. to what people want you to say that if you're Caitlin, if your Angel Reese,

if Angel Reese also was asked if she was going to endorse Kamala Harris and she had basically the exact same answer that Caitlin did. It was before she got injured. She basically said, I have not educated myself on both candidates, but I do encourage everybody to register to vote.

I get that there is a craving and a belief that if Caitlin were to speak up, that things would, the temper would tone down. I question that in and of itself to a degree, but beyond that, I just look at both of them and like everything that they've dealt with, all the pressure of the last year. And I'm just like, do we want to add that onto it right now? Like, do we want to get like the right wing machine just working at them?

And I get it because in fairness, that machine then turns its attention to all of the players that like play against Clark that might shove her that might you know just like touch her or two and like that's a I'll leave it at that for that aspect that segment of it right now because we are going to talk about all of that a little bit later but it is kind of

you know it's just it feels just it feels like a lot I guess it feels like a lot and I don't know that there's a good answer for a 22 year old right now especially as I imagine she's probably trying to find her own voice and all that stuff too like she is from Iowa it's I

think one of the whitest, if not the whitest state in the U.S., she is now in Indiana, maybe this is just all a little bit new to her. And maybe that's giving her a little bit too much credit. Maybe that's giving her a little bit too much cover. But yeah, I don't know. Well, look at it. Look, we have people that we elect to speak on these issues or to, you know, get on these issues.

And again, I don't, you know, I try to look at athletes and say, oh, if I were in their shoes, I would do this because it ain't that easy. And at the end of the day, some people are just trying to make sure, you know, their finances, their families, their things are good. And you can judge it and say, hey, well, I think that this is worth more, but that's just your opinion on the matter. And I think with Caitlin, the line that, you know, sometimes gets told is, you know, yes, you can say you just want to play basketball, but that's also twofold because that would mean, you you wouldn't take any endorsements, right? That mean you wouldn't, you know, take any sponsorships.

That means you wouldn't do any of this stuff, but just literally play basketball. You go and pay for your own shoot. Like you wouldn't do all these things on the side. And so there is a line there where they can become, you know, a bit more nuanced, I think, than just speaking on, you know, this issue. It's like, nah, if you say you want to keep it just basketball, like, yes and no. Like, it's very rare for athletes of her caliber to kind of stick in that lane. Again, I think that she's handled, in my personal opinion, I can't speak for other people,

but having been here the first day she arrived in Indiana, covered a lot of the games, talked to her many times. I think that she's handled a lot of attention, a lot of negative attention when it comes to the idiot internet trolls with a lot more class and grace than you can expect from somebody who's 22 because, as I told you before, I am Team Petty. I'm ready to clap back at everybody who talked. crazy to me online. So I applaud her for not going down that route and really being the adult in the room most of the time. Seriously, there's a lot of arguing about back and forth people trying

to pull her in this direction, that direction to fight whatever fight they want to, you know, fight. She has for the most part been herself and, you know, it hasn't really had some like egregious mistake where I looked at her and said, oh my gosh, I can't believe like this is the person that I'm covering like, nah, she hasn't really had that. There are just moments where I think that she's 22 and she's figuring it out. And of course, there is a lot of privilege in how she figures it out, you know, as a white woman, being a straight white woman, like, I can't ignore that. But again, my personal opinion is just that, hey, she is here to play basketball. And personally, I've enjoyed watching it kind of unfold, like I told you before, to see it explode

the way it has here. I knew it would be a big deal, but I didn't realize, even with all the negative stuff, for the most part, I would say the majority of it is positive, at least what I've seen in person out in the community. It is incredible to see the amount of attention she's brought to women's sports and the excitement around the state. Like this is somebody you're talking to. I covered, you know,

high school girls basketball in Indiana. I've covered, you know, a lot of different levels of the sport in the state and to see her impact from kids to, you know, grown women to elders is pretty incredible. And again, she carries that weight.

And that crown a lot better than most would. And the last thing I'll leave you with on that note is I'm reading the Wright Thompson article that you did on her in ESPN where Kate Martin is in the locker room after, you know, Caitlin had a spat or something. And Kate got up and said, hey, you know, everyone's mad at Caitlin for how she reacts to us or her body language and stuff like that. And of course, she has to get better at it.

But you don't want to beat Caitlin because it comes with a lot. And people expect a lot of you. To your point, as you were alluding to, some people do view her as this figure that is beyond just a basketball player or a human. And to me, I think it's a bit unhealthy because it's almost like their relationship with her through social media gives them like this war, like perception of who she actually is. And kind of forgetting that she's not superwoman. She's a 22-year-old girl who happens to shoot the basketball a lot better than, you know, most. humans. Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. On that, no, a 22-year-old basketball player who actually had her worst shooting night of her WNBA career. Yes, ma'am. I was there. I was there. Yeah. Six for 22, missed 16 shots.

That's the most she's missed in her career. One for 10 from three, five turnovers. Tough night for Caitlin. One of her worst games of the season. I think we were all kind of going in hoping for like this big. MVP clash and maybe maybe we'll get that on Friday. But it was a really tough night for her. I think Jackie Young was awesome.

She played just like was stuck on her basically like the entire night. Like just like you there wasn't a moment where she didn't have at least one arm on her. I think Caitlin was really frustrated. Jackie was picking her up 94 feet. She had two offensive fouls in the game. I think that was also, you know, you'll see one every once in a while. But I just think the Aces did an incredible job. And it was like, it was kind of interesting to watch because it does feel like the next part of her evolution is continuing to learn how to deal with all of that physicality.

And again, like a like it is sort of like on that step trajectory of like, you know, you'd watch it. You'd see him after these games and it looks like he has played such a finesse game. But like if you look at his shoulders, they're all scratched up. Everybody's tugging on to him all the time. And I think, you know, after the game, like there was a conversation about the reffing. And I think that it gets to something interesting about growth in becoming a vet in the league down the line because I do think that the aces played her smart. You know, and they flopped a couple times and like they got in their fouls when they could and all of that. And I think sometimes Caitlin takes like the opposite tack of sort of like just being like, hey, this is a foul.

And I think there's just there's a lot of gamesmanship to the referee relationship. And I think that that is also just like an off-court evolution that I think I'd like to see over time. Like one of the things that, you know, one of my friends who used to work for the NBA Roughing Association, I always talked about the one player that reps hated the most. I think now this has all been reported. We have like all the Scott Foster drama and everything. But reps didn't like Chris Paul. And they didn't like Chris Paul, not because he complained, but because he showed them up.

And I think that Clark does that sometimes. you know she has moments where she's like sarcastically like good job good call things like that that i just don't think are like really in service to um getting them on your good side which you do have to do it's a human game at the end of the day like i think we'd all love to live in a world where like actually no like i would not love to live in this world but i think sometimes we have this fantasy idea of refs being like these AI robots i just like call the game they're people so like their perceptions of you and what's happening matter so you know there are moments where you're you kind of, as a player, got to get, got to get like the foul off at the right moment if you're

going to push off. And you also kind of got to learn to deal with it a little bit better as well. Absolutely. I mean, that's what I've talked about when I saw her laying on the floor last Friday. I'm like, that's the type of stuff that isn't going to get you the call. It's just going to get you more and more. It'll go viral on Twitter, but it's not going to get you a call. Yeah. No, and what's crazy is, and I remember thinking that game, I was like, you know what? I think Caitlin's at five technical files, right?

And they have a handful of games left, and I would truly not, I wouldn't like to see it, but I kind of like to see it. Like, what would it take for her to actually get that seventh tech, like to get to seven and be suspended for a game? Because she was really pushing it to get a sixth last week. And even though she may not want, to admit this, I think a factor that helps her sometimes to not get teed up is that she is

Kailen Clark. And so the league knows, hey, we want this girl to be playing no matter what. So it has to be really, really, really, really, really egregious for her to get a tech versus if she were a different player, a role player, you know, not a household name. I don't think that they get it as long at least she got last Friday, even last night. Nobody's trying to be the ref that suspends Caitlin Clark, man. That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean? Exactly, exactly.

And she's vocal about these things. I remember after she got a tech for a slap in the stanchion one day, she came in the media room and just ripped the ref and was like, he told me y'all was bad to the game. And I like to thank him because he sparked me up. You know, we went on this run. He won this game because of him.

And I'm like, who, again, she can be annoying. I'm just like this girl here. A bit of an antagonist with the reference. That's what I'm saying. She can be that. And so, you know, I use a different A word earlier. You can use antagonist.

But yes, it's definitely part of it when it comes to her. And part of it, it works in certain instances. You can tell that line because you are Caitlin. The rules are, I'll be honest, they're a little bit different when you're dealing with her. However, to your point, the ACEs threw a ton of bodies at her. They wore down. They made sure that she always saw two bodies. And I think part of it, too, was they had just come off an overtime game against the dream

where they had to use everything to kind of knock off a team that they probably should have put away in regulation. And so that caught up to them too. But I enjoy it. I think that, you know, when you're a reporter and you're writing about this really big figure, it's the ability to be there most of the time for all phases of it and not just looking at it from, you know, the TV screen or looking at it from a box score. but seeing the moments within the game where she's kind of navigating these things it's so unique to me

because even I could tell you right now from the beginning of the season until now she's even gotten better with her temperament which seems kind of crazy to say sometimes because it's like, what do you mean? Last Friday she laid on the floor in the middle of the game. Yeah. And that was still a lot better than it was

at the beginning of the year when they were losing and she was frustrated because she was getting on the reps and things like that. So a lot of it has to do with learning and trying to control what makes her who she is because you can't take that away from her. You can't take away the edge because it just wouldn't be Caitlin anymore. And I don't think she can play like that.

I don't think she wants to play like that. And to be quite honest, I think true W fans, the ones who aren't worried about, you know, what, you know, pictures she likes on Instagram from Taylor Swift, the real fans enjoy that edge, that fire that she brings. And the smoke that gets brought back to her when you have people like Jackie Young and Sidney Colson and others, you know, Tiffany Hayes bodying you up. and making sure that, yeah, we know you're how great you are, but you're going to fill us on every bump, every screen.

We're going to hold you. We're going to do all these things to, you know, basically keep you down and navigate this game. Because as we've seen, I don't think that Caitlin Clark is on the level with Asia Wilson as all. I mean, at all. Asia Wilson is an amazing player, class of her own right now, for sure, in the NBA.

But I do think that, you know, there's a fear among teams where it's like on any given night, Caitlin can be the best player on the court. And the Aces is, you know, mine. They're like, that night ain't going to be tonight. So it was cool to see that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you brought up that she looked tired because she has over the last five games average 39 minutes per game. She played 45 minutes in that overtime game against a dream. Stephen No, it's morning news, a really good article about how she basically plays like an MVP when she has

rest and she looks really, really struggles through fatigue. I recommend everybody go read that. Yeah, that's a good piece. Yeah, honestly, it's a great piece, but statistically across the board, her percentages, inside, outside the line, her assist, points, rebounds, everything goes down when she is tired. And right now, the fever at her junction in the season where I think that they kind of need to start prioritizing rest for her, for everybody. We also saw Christie's sides, I know a lot of people were really upset with the rotations yesterday, just to add some context to that.

Chrissy sides before the game said that she was going to start incorporating some of the players that were outside of the rotation as they get ready for the playoffs just to see what they got, just to throw out different looks so that they are prepared for the postseason. I am a big advocate of that always, especially when you don't have anything to play for. They're either going to be six or seventh with the way that the playoffs are shaking out right now. The two to three seed is going to be between the links and the sun. The fever have no control over who they play because that one is, That one is up in the air.

And they have a decent cushion with the six seats. And they're clinched. They clinched the postseason. So now I go and see what you can do and how you can incrementally get better. See like experiment, try things moving into like the next phase of your development. I didn't love some of the lineups that we saw out there. I don't love like a Christy Wallace and Katie Lou Samuelson on the floor at the same time together moment. It's not like my favorite thing in basketball.

Temi and Dantas on the floor together while the a ACEs are going five. five out thing, which just wasn't, not the best, but I also did not mind it, given the context of what sides was trying to do. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was tough. It's just certain instances where, like, if K. Liu isn't going to be making shots, it's tough to, you know, have her out there because of the defensive, you know, I guess, fault that you have when she's out there.

And she can't really keep up with some of those perimeter players that the aces were throwing at her and things like that. So I think Christy deserves. Herves a ton of credit for trying to evolve as much as she can with a team that looks totally different from the ones she took over at the beginning of last season. And, you know, this was an example of that. And is it always going to be pretty? No. Is it always going to work?

No. But it's so funny. Again, being here and dealing with the Kailen Clark effect is when they have success, it's all Kailen Clark's fault. She did it. She's the hero. When they don't, the biggest name. you hear among a lot of the social media people that are in my mentions are usually like Christensen's not what she's doing and I'm like wait a second she's one coach of the month like she's

kind of I'm like she Caitlin didn't do all this on her own like she had to evolve too and she's helped this team grow a ton as well so do I agree with her rotations last night probably not but at the same time it's like I can't fully discredit what she's done this season because I didn't like her rotations last night or at the beginning of the year where to me their schedule was more of like why they started as bad as they did than the actual playing and rotation. And obviously it's changed lots to insane like Grace Berger was getting minutes back then and Chris Wallace was starting. All that has changed drastically.

But at the same time, I just think that, again, they're trying to fill each other out and figure out what's their most optimum lineup, which I think they know that most things aren't going that deep in the playoffs. But just in case, like you said, I don't see any point in, you know, like sitting on potential bullets and wasting them if you don't even know if you can use them. Boston, the Boston self did it, you know, to end the regular season last year. And everyone kept freaking out and they lost the game. And it's like, who cares?

They're trying to figure out what lineups if they turn to them might work. And again, yes, the fever are scary. Yes, they've been led in large part by, you know, Caitlin, you know, Kelsey Mitchell and Leah Boston. But who else? Because to me, whenever they're playing at, okay, we can beat any team on any given night fever level, that's usually when they have that fourth and fifth player kind of stepping up. And that to me kind of changes on a night to night basis, whether it's Lexi Hall,

who's played amazing this year, or whether it's Alyssa, or whether it's Timmy, you know, bringing rebounding in defense or there's donches off the bench. Like all those things matter. It's just trying to figure out, you know, what recipe works on any given night. And it's just not as easy as it looks. Like, it is not easy. Truly, I think people who watch the game kind of get it, you know, twisted. This ain't, you know, your, you know, rec league team or, or you coaching your kids. Like, this is hard. And I think she's navigated it fairly well, given the circumstances and stakes and how much, again, things have changed because you've added this really, really, you know, great player, but just like heliocentric player where everyone else

has to kind of figure out where they stand around her. Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, frankly, just look at the offense from game one to game 20. I think sides is the, we don't know if a championship level coach yet, but she's done just fine, in my opinion, enough to earn her a little bit of job security, at least a little bit moving forward. Another thing that happened in that game in the first quarter, Asia Wilson breaks the all-time single-season scoring record. With still, by the way, plenty of time before the Aces crossed the finish line. Just an incredible season from her. She's been awesome. She had, I thought she had, a really interesting game. She came back from injury, missed the first few bunnies, but was just

immediately was incredible at the rim. A lot of moments where Jackie Young just basically funneled Clark into Asia and it ended up either in like a miss shot or a block. But there's just, I don't know, like there's just so much that you could say about what she's done this season. But to me, the biggest thing is just like over the last 10 games, the way that she has just, dragged them back from the dead where it looked like the aces just were falling apart, didn't look like a championship contender. You felt the fatigue sinking in. The guards were a little bit sluggish. But she was the one consistent piece of all of that. She's just been incredible. I think if there's one stat that I would use to like exemplify how

great she has been, Asia Wilson is averaging 1.3 turnovers per game. I don't think that there's anything that could speak better to the control and poise she has over the game, than that stat. And the fact that over the last 10 games, that's actually been at 0.9 while she has led the WN usage, she's just been incredible. There's really at this point, like you run out of words,

especially when you talk about some of the off-court stuff. It's just like, it's so cool to watch. Watching her press conference, I'm curious what your thoughts were after, after the game because you were actually at the game, but she was crying. Alicia Clark was crying, talking about how she's leadership,

who she is as a person, just like, man, there's a moment where Alicia Clark is like, dude, she makes you feel seen. Like that was, it was just,

it was just a very emotional moment. I encourage everybody to go watch it. But she's just, there's just, yeah, there's just nothing. You can't, you can't say enough about her,

honestly. Not at all. And I guess my unique perspective on this to give everyone, I guess, some Indiana insight. So Tyler Morris, who's an assistant coach for the Aces, used to be an assistant coach for the Pacers. So I've known him since I moved to Indianapolis. And I remember when I wrote the story about him leaving the Pacers to go to the Aces

and his excitement to, you know, work with a player like Asia Wilson, to work with Becky Ham and to see it come together like this, to see her out of the seasons that she's had has been incredible and to just see his reaction to it. This is the guy who's been around great basketball. I believe he was an assistant coach with the Toronto Raptors when they won a championship in 2019 with Kauai Lenters, so he knows the greatness looks like. And now he's looking at a player that is charting a path that we haven't seen

before in this league in this sport. And to hear his comments, daily comments, daily encouraged man, to hear him talk about her, I know him personally. I know that what he considers good character and his standards. And if he's saying this as constantly as he is, I have no choice but to believe it and to believe what everyone else is seeing and hearing from her teammates, her old coaches, current coaches, old teammates, current teammates,

like the woman is incredible. And as Alicia was saying, the crown is heavy. And I think that we can take for granted sometimes that we expect her to go out and just get you 30 points or to go out there and be dominant. Or like you said, drag them back from the dead to the point where, to me personally I'm just like I'm not counting them out as long as she's playing that's how I feel like I feel like I'm watching shack in this prime where it's just like if that person's on your team you got a shot because she might be able to just will you to it I mean even last night she broke the single season scoring record and um and did it in the in an amount of games that would have broken in any season you know I know they played a lot more games or than they did in the past but still um she this isn't like some inflated, you know, stat.

Like she did it and, you know, and an amount of games that's really respectable. And on top of that, she wasn't that great for her standard. She was 11 of 28, I think, from the field, you know, missed a ton of shots, 27 points, 28 shots. But again, when it was,

when the fever started fast, it was Asia Wilson that got them back in the game. When they needed to stop late, she was the one who got it. When they needed, you know, just anything, dirty buckets, blocks. she was there and she played with so much emotion similar to how I view it with Caitlin where like Asia's not nice. Both women are so nice off the court. I mean, Asia's a sweetheart, but it's like, nah, in between them lines, she is a dog. Like, she is a killer. She, you know,

she ain't trying to look out for nobody but her team. And so Mitch Richard was really inspiring to see, you know, again, for me, I'm a fan first, it feels like. So I'm like, man, like 20 years from now, I'm going to be able to say, hey, I was in the building when Asia broke the season single scoring record. And then to see the reaction from our teammates and how they gas her up and rightfully so, it's cool, man, because I think when you want players or you want people to, you know, look at these players as role models, like, does it get better than Asia Wilson? Like, she's one of one for a reason. And I enjoy, you know, being in this era that I'm in and just watching it because I know what I'm seeing is special.

And I'm like when I was super young and I, like you said, I didn't get a chance to really understand like Diana Tarazi, like, you know, her impact on the league early on. It's like, I'm living it now. Like I'm old enough to understand. I have enough history of the league to understand. I've been around the league long enough to know. Nah, this is what we're seeing is truly different and in more ways than one. So I'm loving it, man.

Like she is unstoppable. And the thing that I always say is she's one of the best basketball players in the world. And I hate when people put that distinction on the women's basketball. Like, nah, bro. Just basketball, period. Like, she can hoop with anybody. Like, she's incredible. Yeah.

She reminds me, I think, on and off the court a little bit of Tim Duncan. Like, one of the things about the game last night and just her game in general, I thought it was so fitting that she broke the record with a mid-range jumper. The same mid-range jumper that basically was killing the fever all night. Like, that was a shot that you could, that was basically forced them to multiple times. change their coverages and they could do nothing about because she's just so money from that area and she's so fundamentally sound and I think it's like a really great developmental lesson for anybody like you don't need to be the fanciest player in the world but if you can just be

the best at the bread and butter that will go a long way for you like a signature move and a few counters is really all you need. If you can then have the stamina and the smarts to know exactly when to bust each and every one of those out. And then play on a team too that, you know, does a really good job of funneling the ball out to three-point shooters when she does get doubled. And she's increasingly getting better at getting the ball out quickly too. It's just, it's just something that I think is underrated, especially about with a player

like Asia, who's not like necessarily the flashiest player in basketball, but it's easily the most effective. And off the court, too, you know? Like, she just has this leadership style. She carous everybody around her. She has this emotional intelligence. And she's doing it for her team, too. Like, she's not really here.

That's why I think that's why she gets so emotional. She gets so emotional because she's so invested in her team. And I think that's just, it's just really special. James, this has been a lot of fun. Before we get you out of here, is there anything you want to plug? I mean, hopefully. if they get a playoff game here in Indianapolis. I'm rooting for a game three at the crib.

That would be nice to cover. But other than that, I think that right now I'm just trying to figure out, like, you know, how do I, you know, if this season continues, you know, as far as the playoffs go and they're able to make a run or even not, I'm just stay tuned on maybe like just a, you know, a recap of what it's been like, you know,

covering Caitlin Clark and maybe some of the first person experiences that I'd be able to share and little things that I've enjoyed about this whole process because it's been out-opening for me. It's forced me to be better. And if anything, I'm hoping that it's brought, you know, a lot of W fans to Indiana and made it, you know, a permanent thing because, like I said, game days feel different. She makes everything different down here.

And it's been a lot of fun. So like I said, stay tuned on that front. I know that Ben Pickman's got some stuff up his sleeve as well. And as the athletic knows, if they ever need a pinch hitter, I'm here. Like, I'm always available. I don't care if it's Pacers, fever, Colts, whatever. You know, I'll get in there and make some shake.

So thanks for having me. And it's been cool to chop it up with you. I read a lot of your work, been doing it for years, and you know, you're doing an amazing job. And it'll be cool for both of us to continue to, you know, cover this and be around this time of the league because I'm sure there's going to be some things that come out of this,

years from now, we're like, man, we didn't realize at the time, like, how big of a moment, you know, certain parts of this was. I mean, I know it's big now, but, you know, perspective always adds a few more things to it. You know, it does, but I do think that's one of the most compelling parts of this experience is that I think everybody knows. I think that's why there's so much attention on it, why so many people are tuning in. Like, it's just, I think it's very clear, kind of like it was with Curry, that this is history in the making. and it's just one of the most compelling things about watching sports is getting the opportunity to witness at. So when you do have one of these moments where you kind of know,

it just adds this extra gravity to it, I guess. And it's been really cool to watch you cover all of that, watch you kind of dive in and be one of the voices of this moment. And I'm sure we'll try to have you back on at some point, too, to talk more. Thanks again. Anytime. Anytime. So next we have Katie Hindle, one of my best friends, one of my favorite people, one of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing the founder of basketball feeling.

She is freelance pretty much everywhere that publishes good basketball writing. I'm really excited to have her on today. How's it going, Katie? Dude, if I know you're going to make me cry, I don't know. I would have agreed to come on. Oh, this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning. I have something waiting for you at the end.

Hell yeah. I'm really excited today. Yeah, just wanted to make sure you're comfortable, so I figured I'd let you know. Well, Katie, we're here to talk about Kathy Gate. As you called her Big C, I really enjoyed that. She, Kathy Engelver, the commissioner of the WNBA, had an interview with CNBC Power at Lunch, where she was asked by the anchor Tyler Matheson about what he referred to as the more darker, menacing turn that social media has. taken, with race being introduced into the question, with, with, with, with, uh, sexuality being

introduced into the conversation, some of the toxic things that players are seeing on social media. I thought it was a really good question just as somebody who appreciates watching those things as a reporter. I thought it was about as direct as you can possibly get. Um, he asked basically, how do you try to stay ahead of that? How do you try to tap it down, um, in, in light of, you know, the rivalry between Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and all these, uh, these, these, the uncharitable things, as he put it, that are being said about the other. And she basically sidestep the question. She basically, you know, she said that she was basically that it was great for the rivalry,

that the rivalry was great for the WNBA in terms of business, in terms of viewership. I'll actually quote exactly what she said. She said, there's no more apathy. It's a little bit of that Larry Bird Magic Johnson moment, if you recall from 1979, when those two rookies came in from a big college library, one white, one black. And so we have that moment with these two. But the one thing I know about sports, you need rivalry, that's what makes people watch. They want to watch games of consequence between rivals.

They don't want everybody being nice to each other. Beyond being a softball question, which kind of gave what I think was a really easy opportunity to say, well, we love the growth of the sport, the racism, the homophobia, the misogyny, the toxicity that we're seeing across the board can't be condoned in the safety and well-being of our players. has to be a priority. I should not say that, and a lot of WNBA players spoke up about it, and then the WNBPA put out a response, essentially saying what I just said,

and Kathy later apologized on Twitter. I guess she didn't necessarily apologize. She just added some context to what she said, and basically just said, yeah, we should not tolerate these things. But this is, it became a thing, And I think it hit a nerve because it got at attention. That has essentially been the operating principle of the WNBA this season. It was a bit of a mask-off moment for Kathy in not saying the quiet part out loud.

She actually kind of drew some more attention to it. This has just been the situation of the entire season. All of this extra attention that is now coming to the league has created a really toxic situation for a lot of the players, a lot of whom are black. This is a league that is 25% queer, and that just can't be ignored in the conversation. And that's why I wanted to have you on Katie, because I think it dovetails really nicely with an article that you wrote,

before this even happened, you wrote this last week on your basketball-feeling substack after the harrowing femic side of Ugandan Olympic sprinter, Rebecca Chaptegay, on the through line between this verbal dehumanization that we see on social media and the way that it can create a throughline to physical violence against women. Katie, I'm just, you know, your initial thoughts on everything.

One, I think the question, it was teed up to her so nicely, you know, as you said, it was, I wouldn't call it a softball, but it had a lot of like soft edges and she had a lot of space, I think, where she could take the question and go where she wanted with it. She didn't have to try and address everything all at once, which just, Generally, I feel, is the reticence when it comes to commissioners, be it Adam Silver, Big C. Kathy Acklebert, I'll use her full name. In situations like this where they're like, I don't want to place a foot wrong. I don't want to say the wrong thing.

But instead, she just avoided it completely. As you said, she talked about fashion. That was a strange detour. She's like, we're at the forefront of fashion and we love rivalries. generally generally I wish she had just said something even if she flubbed it even if it was imperfect

this has always been my argument when trying to discuss whether in the NBA, the WMBA, any kind of pro sports league when trying to get people to talk about the more difficult or tricky

or just honestly the things we don't yet have language for because we avoid talking about it because it's seen as difficult or tricky you know people get nervous about that.

So I wish she had just said, you know, we don't stand for any, like, threats bodily at all against our players. We don't stand for pitting athletes against one another because of concerns of, like, race in this case. You know, she's got a lot to work with there in terms of the, I guess, like, white savioration of Caitlin Clark this season and her being in a role she's uncomfortable with. I mean, I think the WNBPA statement did a really good job of, you know, just underscoring what Kathy should have led with. And I think her follow-up was also pretty weak.

It was one of those like, here's what I should have said. But it was still quite soft. So I don't know. I think that outrage is well directed. You know, this is like a very outspoken, rather, league. You know, and the W, I think, from a commission, like from the perspective, of like a business standpoint or the commissioner standpoint, too. They really get to capitalize off of that when they want to, when it's convenient for them.

You know, I say whether that's with sponsorships or just like, you know, we let our athletes stand for the causes that they believe in. You know, it gets them a lot of attention when it's good. But in this instance, it's like you want your commissioner to go to bat for you and say the right thing and just basically say, like, we don't stop threatening our players, stop being parasocial freaks, but she didn't go there. She could have.

She could have. I also, I think to the point of the fashion, she also said that she basically tells players if she sees anybody on social media saying things to her that she would not actually take advice from, basically to ignore them. I thought that that,

that was particularly telling in terms of just how disconnected, it feels like she is from her players. And just how much avoidance she's kind of dealing with the issue, even the tweet, it feels like she's doing damage control more than she is actually trying to figure out what is actually going on and what her players' concerns are. Because this is not a league of players that can stay off of social media if you do want the W to be at the crossroads of all these other conversations,

culturally with fashion-wise. This is a league that has marketed itself via social media. So I think it's just a contradiction in terms as well. Just, yeah, just didn't love that part of it. And I don't know. It just felt really disconnected. And it feels like that's a big part of why the players and also fans are so upset too. Yeah, I think, again, it's like a misstep in the sense of it feels like almost several years behind, right?

And as I try to, I'm not trying to rationalize what she said, though, it is in my nature to try and work backwards from things and figure out where they could have stemmed from. So with her, I do wonder if there's this hesitation to say something because it theoretically opens some imaginary floodgate of like, well, now we've addressed this. So are we going to have to address every single threat against our players? However, to that I will say, like, that points out the worst thing, like the shittier thing, which is that any of your athletes are getting death threats, and if your athletes are being targeted because of their race, like that any of this is happening in the first place. And I guess that's the conversation that I think the W and the NBA and a lot of leagues are ill-equipped to have, because then you bring in some of these deeper rooted questions of misogyny and, you know, like bodily autonomy and the politics of it.

And like you and I have talked about this a lot separately. But that's why I think this was kind of a perfect opportunity to introduce honestly some more difficult subjects that don't really get talked about in sports into the conversation. because you have examples of kind of all of those things happening this season to WMBA athletes. You know, you have like the really scary stalking of page Beckers. You have the multiple death threats against black athletes in your league. You have this pitting of Caitlin Clark against everyone else. A lot of misogy noir, like tied up in that. And then just blatant misogyny.

I think for fans who are very uncomfortable. It seems like with the physicality of women's warts and and there's this like sense of protectionism or you can only be physical in some ways and not other ways also the sense of like the financial aspect and like the economics of misogyny and that you know these women are not in the same way that NBA players are they're not really removed from threats like it's much closer to them and as you pointed out pretty aptly. whether it's the league's endorsement deals or their own personal endorsement deals, like they can't stay off social media. It's a viable tool for them. Whereas I think a lot of NBA players, given their wealth, they have a certain level of security because of that. So they really are being targeted kind of on all fronts.

So in that sense, it seems like an overdue, an overdue point that someone should have addressed this. And of course, like, who better than your league commissioner? I do wonder what the result of this is. I think the anger feels quite pointed still from that, like from W players. Yeah, I am curious to see what like happens down the line. I think you also like you get to a really good point when it comes to, you know, just our larger sports culture and like the dehumanization of players.

And the way that it just, it happens across sports, right? And I think this is like something that, you know, the person playing devil's advocate would basically say, well, this is what you wanted. Like, this is the attention that male athletes get. This is a type of vitriol that is thrown their way. I would argue that it's different in some ways and also that the consequences are different for a number of different reasons, you know, like whether it's whether you have a sense of physical security or not in your own body.

There's like a man on the street is not coming up to whether he is security or not. It's not coming up to LeBron James the same way that he could to like an angel resource or Kennedy Carter. Carter, by the way, who's making $76,000. this year, you know, like living in Chicago. Like, she's living in average human beings life. She's not living like this protected lifestyle, you know, or whether it's Diamond to Shields too, who also got a lot of death threats as well.

So I think that that is like a really clear difference. And it's also just the nature of the way that these players are targeting. Like Angel Reese has spoken up about how she has had AI deep fake pornography made of her, which is just so terrifying in so much. many ways, like, for just our future in general. But it is one of those things where that type of misogyny is very specifically in my mind designed to humiliate and shame and tell you to just basically shut up. You know, it is designed to scare you. And it makes me, I want to cite something from a column that Julia Poe wrote for the Chicago Tribune where, you know,

she talks about, she covers Angel Reese very closely. And it was just one part of the piece that just really stood out to me. It's a really great piece overall. But she was talking about how after a news conference it has normally been very cheerful for, you know, the Chicago sky. They finally got to win. It's like generally a good environment. Angel Reese had this conversation with security as she was reaching the door. She urged the two security guards to keep the door closed with an audible protest.

There's too many people. They had a hush conversation after that. Eventually, Reese walked out, hustling quickly as both security guards, shielded her from the crowd of fans who warmly greeted her arrival. Reese kept her head down, not stopping until she was safely through the double doors, leading to the locker room. That moment, quoting Julia now, that moment stuck with me at work. Reese is indefatigatively confident.

She's quick and sharp with the media gregarious with her teammates, fearless almost to a fault on the court. But in that moment, the vulnerability of her position in the world shine through. it's scary to exist in that precarious state always wary never able to show fear and i think that that's something that's really important to talk about because of the psychological impact that that type of like that physical threats that misogyny that racism that you know like putting out images of somebody without their consent not even images of her can have on a person psychologically like it is all designed to have that exact impact, to grind you down, to then have you go out in public and be wary

to be scared, you know? And it's just that, that to me is one of the most like nefarious and effective ways that, you know, bigotry is upheld is by like quieting these voices like Angel Reese, for example, who does not necessarily exist with like and, you know, conform within the status quo as, as a black female athlete, she's very outspal. And it just, to me, this is all, it's all designed in my mind to silence somebody like her. Yeah. And I think it plays really easily into the constructs that we already have when it comes to how we identify with and talk about, write about, like, theorize about, you know, athletes, right? The sense of othering someone's body and reducing it to outcome.

So, you know, with basketball players, it's like what is their inherent trade value based on the season they just had, right? So it's reducing someone to numbers or to the numbers of their salary, equating somebody's worth with money, you know, things that we do like that in sports media and in fandom more generally. I think it's now so the scary thing about it is it just feels so normal to do. like this is just the colloquial way of talking about athletes. But when you add the other layer of talking about women athletes, it obviously feeds into the same problem of misogyny that women face all the time. Like, you know, whether you're getting cat called on the street or being reduced to how you look and that is intrinsic to your value or your age, right?

So I think just go to go back to your earlier point of why the criticism of, well, this is the attention they wanted, like WMBA players specifically, like this is what they wanted. If they wanted to be as big as NBA players, they kind of have to get ready for that sort of attention and, you know, the negative sides as well as the positives. But you have that other layer that you can't escape. And I think whether you want to call it gays, we're talking about like the gaze of fandom in this case. But just this almost like double like double othering. Like you're a woman and you're an athlete. So we're going to dehumanize you in both like on both fronts essentially. Right.

And then you can also add in other things like do you identify like what's your sexuality? Like how do I identify on that front? Like anything that is used to basically bring someone who's seen as a quote minority down, I think you have to fold that into it. And obviously these are difficult things to talk about in general, let alone in sports. But to avoid talking about them is just going to make, I think, the problem a lot bigger. Yeah, there's also, there's like, there's been this, like, trickle down into, like, the mainstream media coverage from some of, like, the narratives that have been created by other media as well. that I think honestly, like, comes from a failure of imagination. Like, hey, like, these athletes are ruining their opportunity.

They're ruining their, they're just coming off as bitter. They're coming off as that. That is, first of all, that in and of itself is, like, very gendered language, like, to use, like, just to, like, assume that any time women are competitive with each other, they are, like, jealous and that it is, like, an inherent characteristic as opposed to, like, the reality of it is, like, yes, like, Caitlin Clark, like when Michael Jordan came into. the NBA has been a target because she is great because the scouting report is designed to be here because every time you know you're playing her, you know that everybody in the world is watching. Like there is going to be an element of bitterness that comes with that, but we don't have to make it about, you know, this entire league because women can't get along with women. You know what I mean?

Like it's just kind of the steps that are, the stereotyping, I guess that's happening is pretty ugly. And I think it all kind of, I mean, there's a fans, the fans themselves, like, that's, that's one aspect of it. But I think, like, one of the bigger reasons that it's important for the W and it should be something that Kathy thinks about in terms of her growing the league is the fact that if you don't get ahead of it, then those things are what control the narrative. Like, you know, like you then let like the Dave Port Noyes and the outkicks of the world who do, I think, see the power of the WNBA and the visibility that it gives to a league that is majority black women, that is 25% queer, and wants to denigrate that power by taking control of what

that image is and what it means and because they're scared of what it could mean. So when there is physical play against somebody like Caitlin Clark, they use phrases like assaults. You know, they use terms like thug as opposed to just calling it what it is, which is just your run-of-the-mill physical play. Because like at the end of the day, I feel like one of the, sort of like utopian dreams of like the of women's sports and the W in particular has been like this idea that the eventual popularity of the league would allow people to see these players in a new light to see their humanity their full personhood and not really and not only afford them like respect and dignity but it maybe even root for them and empower them and you know like kind of have them utilize that sort of like the magic power that is in being like on the arena and being the hero in a moment like that that isn't how it's worked that isn't how it worked well obviously with Angel Reese and LSU when they won. It didn't definitely. Even her, you want to call her the villain that situation?

That's a broader conversation to be had in general. But it didn't work with South Carolina. Like, we were like, basically, like, there was nothing bad you could say about that team on or off the court. Didn't work with South Carolina either. And I do think a lot of it is because, like, this, these sort of, like, bad actors have completely taken control of the narrative. And nobody else has been able to, or like, there just hasn't been enough of, like, of a push against. that and you're not you're not going to get rid of misogyny. You're not going to get rid of racism. You're not going to get rid of homophobia. That's not what is going to happen. But at the

very least, like you could shield your athletes from it and be more intentional about creating a platform that pushes against some of that stuff. And I mean, and to identify it because that's, I think, where people start to get tripped up because they're just like, well, what is this everything? And like, yeah, sure. In some ways, it is everything. But or like it's touches on a lot of stuff. But to have someone clearly name what it is, what's not acceptable about it and how, you know, basically we're not going to stand by this kind of thing, I think that's what is really useful naming it. Like language, the way we talk about athletes, like the way we talk about, you know, these everything that we've brought up is really important. Like it really counts because I think, you know, these like sort of softball responses only really seem to validate. it, right? Or softly kind of condone what's happening versus like outright being like,

it's not acceptable, you know, and what's worse. Like here's why this is problematic. I have to laugh at your point of like, we're not going to solve misogyny. Like, I fear we're not. Perhaps not at least in this podcast, in this WMBA season. I think it's, you know, it's a little late. It's maybe a little late in this season. with comedy. Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think that's what's going to happen here in sports or it's in any other realm. But I do think you're making really good point in naming it. You know, I do think naming it and just saying, hey, this is clearly what's happening, I think is important.

And I think that, honestly, I do feel like years from now, we're going to look back at all this hysteria. And we're almost going to look at it like we look at like old sports rivalries. Because, you know, back, like, if you go through the history of all these, things like in the 1960s there were people that acted like what was happening to Muhammad Ali had nothing to do with race you know what I mean like and I don't want to draw a comparison between like you know Muhammad Ali and and any other athlete but I just think that in the light in the cold light of history we will be able to look back at this moment and be like wow this was really unhinged it was also pretty obvious

you know? Yeah, I don't know. It's disappointing that that was a response. I am curious to see what happens. I am glad that it has created more of a conversation. Do you have any parting thoughts on any of this or what you think is going to happen next? I mean, I like the silver lining idea that this is just a new frontier

in sports and women's sports in particular and we'll learn from it. And so will everybody else, you know, as they retrospectively look back on this dumb time in history. I like that. It's encouraging. I do wonder, I do wonder, I was going to say something else, and now I forget, but aside from that, I do wonder if, I don't know, does she lose her job over this? The wonderful, the wonderful woman of flagrant magazine talked about this on their podcast.

And at first I was like, I don't know, but it doesn't actually seem so far-fetched, you know. It doesn't seem maybe this is like second strike. But like there has to be something greater done here. Though I'm not like, yeah, if you let her go,

like if she was fired, I have no idea you would instill in her place. And I think that's a bigger problem too. Oh, the other thing I wanted to address based on what you said before was the,

like the up the flip side of what people are completely. complaining about of like W athletes playing too hard or being too, quote, jealous or, you know, having rivalries, blah, blah, blah, is that if they were to not do those things and this seemed like a very safe, you know, chased, like, I don't know, sanitized league or whatever, the criticism would just be that it was boring, which has been, you know what I mean? Like, you can't, like, this is the inherent thing of misogyny is that you can't win either way. You can't be one or the other. The idea is to always be doing the wrong. You're always doing

the wrong thing under that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. And I think also kind of gets back to the tension of all of this is that like, unfortunately, I do think that some of this is just unavoidable. Some of, there's definitely some steps that Kathy, I think, can take that the league can take to do a better job of protecting its players. But the reality of a lot of these athletes getting mainstream attention is that the mainstream spotlight is not going to be the friendliest to them. And that sucks. And I think that I guess, yeah, like naming it is probably one of the more effective things that you can do. But it is just, this is not going away. And I'm sure that it's something that we'll have to continue to talk about. I would love to have you on it.

again at some point to talk about it. And other stuff too. Like that's, this is also, this reminds me also of like the, the Tony Morrison quote of like, one of like the worst functions of racism is distraction. Because then you end up just having to address everything that is like held against you.

Every accusation that's held against you. It's sort of like, yeah, like let's, I hope that the next time I have you on the podcast, we are talking about something else. We're talking about how cool Asia Wilson is, how phenomenal. Like, I can't believe something like how incredibly she's playing this season

has like, seems like the quieter thing. You know what I mean? Like it's getting overshadowed by this other BS, quite frankly. Yeah, absolutely. We just had James Boyd on. We talked about her breaking the all-time scoring record. But one of the things I was thinking about in that segment was just like, she's kind of, she has this like Tim Duncan-esque quality of like consistent.

and fundamental greatness. Like she just kind of beats you over and over again with the same things. It is like there is something a little bit boring about it. That also then gets, it's, there's not not watching her play, but it has that sort of, it doesn't have the conflict that all these other things have.

Like the aces are going for a three P. And I think the biggest, that might be like the biggest point of like the attrition that you face on that battle might be the biggest point of conflict and just, how difficult it is to do that historically. But on the court, she's just so much better than everybody else. Like, even watching, I love, I love watching her against Leah Boston because it's sort of like Charzan versus Charmander to a degree.

Like, it's just like the more evolved destructive version who also, like, you can tell they both went to the school of Don Staley because they both just hammer you again and again with the same, like, consistent move. Like, Asia can just do anything with that midranger. And Boston is like, just like dribble, dribble, turn, drop step, hook, like, boom, over and over and over again. Katie, is there anything you want to plug before we get you out of here? I mean, you plugged it earlier.

But yeah, you can read Basketball Feelings, both the piece that you reference, and I feel like I write about this stuff way too often, but that's at Basketballfeilings.com. Also, before we get out of here, and to help us transition to the next part of the show, because I love your writing, but I also love seeing you blush. I'm going to quote one of my favorite things that I've read about Nefisa Collier that came from a column that you did for The Believer. You ready for this, Katie? You're ready to have your writing read back to you?

I don't think anybody's ready for this, actually. So I'm just going to... I'm ready. I'm just going to jump in. I'm just going to jump in. Watching Collier run unencumbered from Halfcourt to the Net is not as exhilarating as it is familiar because, the mechanics of her body appear unhurried and routine, even as she's eating up the hardwood

with each lengthening stride. The casualness is the beauty of and an occasional detriment to Collier's game. It's a reason she's one of the W's top tier players. She's a stealth threat and a considerate teammate. She consistently knocks out record-setting games, but still in her sixth season has remained largely under the radar. Within the league, everyone knows about her. They know how to keep the ball close when they get into the paint on an offensive possession in case she swoops in. No to guard her just as tightly around the rim as they do way out past the three point line. They know too that her, I've bit off a little bit more than, I'm going to, you know what, I'm going to keep, I'm going to keep rolling though.

You're in it now. They know too that her body just six foot one, but loaded with core strength, will push them around if they give her even an inch. This point was hammered home when Collier played against NWN. BPA president, league veteran and Seattle Storm player Nekha Aguomake. They had a series of in-game dustups earlier this month, which culminated in Collier, coyly waving goodbye to Agumika just before the links won the game. W fans reacted to this move with surprise, and even Agumake seemed startled.

But maybe Collier's done being subtle about what she can do. So if you guys want to learn more about Nefesia Collier and the links who I think are not even a Dark Horse Championship Threat at this point. Stick around. Katie, lovely to have you. Thanks for letting me do that to you right now. I love you so much. Bye. I love you too. Thank you. We are back. I'm very excited to welcome on to the show. Mark Schindler. He runs an awesome YouTube page called We've Got Now. He does a lot of great draft content, a lot of great WNBA content. And I'm really excited to talk to him because I feel like like myself, he's a bit of a Minnesota Lynx Head. They are my favorite team to watch in the W right now. They're so fun.

They're the hottest team since the Olympic break. They've been 10 and 1 with the number two offense in the W, the number three defense, second in net rating, first and true shooting percentage, second an assist percentage. But one thing about them that I think is so fascinating and so interesting. It's something that Mark actually talked about on his show a couple months ago with Steve Jones. Mark, welcome to the show, first of all. How you doing? I'm good. No, I appreciate you having me. Obviously, like, I was stoked that you got this started up. And I mean, hey, getting the invite felt pretty sick. So, no, I'm having to be here. And I've been honestly, like, not to, not to throw you on the spot, but when I started covering the NBA as my dog chimes in the

background. I started covering the NBA, like, shoot, I guess, like four years ago when I was in college. And I try to get you on my pod. Never got an email back. But I, so it's a nice turnaround. Yeah. Thanks for it all, it all works out. Against me. No, no, it's good. Now, because it's the kind of thing we're like you get now. So I get like, I get like 100 emails a day, dude. Like, how am I supposed to keep up with this stuff? But exactly. So was it. How long ago was this? Oh, this was like, this was probably like middle of the pandemic. So yeah, it's a minute.

Obviously, like everybody else, I had a lot going on. Yeah, yeah, understandably. Super, super busy. Well, cool. We can make up for that. We can definitely make up for that. I do really appreciate having you on. I'm a big fan.

And on your show, you talked about something I thought was really interesting. the links are in what you called them like basically like a sign of the modernization of the WNBA and a team that's kind of feels like it's pushing forward the modernization of the WNBA when it comes to style when it comes to I think the Fisa Collier is just a great example of that just a type of player that she is and her evolution from being somebody who I think you guys were talking about why it was that she fell so low in the draft and a lot of scouts were basically like we don't know what she is. We don't know what position she's supposed to be playing. And now fast forward, it doesn't necessarily matter because Nefisa Collier is somebody who can basically do

everything on the court and the links are a team that really have served that incredibly well, have like especially this season played into that incredibly well. So yeah, like just just, just get us started on that. We can just go from there. Yeah, it's, it's really fun to look at. Because I, you know, I've kept going back to look at stuff too because I wasn't really into the yet when when fee first came in but going back and like talking to people who were you know in decision-making positions at the time a lot of the sentiment was just like and to be fair to you like there were some players who got injured at the top that you know I think things would look different now but obviously I think fee would be the player who goes number one if you do like a redraft today like

that goes without saying just looking at how everything goes but like I mean you look at like there was an ESPN mock from like middle of the season her senior year where she's 12th and like again, that's not meant as to shade to ESPN, but exactly what we're talking about. Like, I think if you look at a player like for you right now, and even just watching her in college, like, I think she's very much a player like,

you watch and like, that's somebody that can fit, that can do so many things. But again, the W is still like kind of a, I think they've always been more modern in a way, like having gone back and watched stuff. Just by nature,

you know, some differences in the game. But I think we're kind of in that state. right now in the W of like the 14-15 NBA like around there like so I almost feel like the links are kind of like I think they have a lot more playoff liability than this team which we'll talk about but they're like very Utah jazz-esque to me kind of like in becoming that driving kick mafia type team that always has the ball moving can can shoot the hell out of the ball but they obviously bring like a lot more defensively in a different way that I think speaks a lot more

at the versatility of the game and being able to defend differently. But again, like, I mean, I believe they're still on pace to set the assist record this season. They just have so many interchangeable parts in different ways to play. And again, like we talked about, I think so much that starts with fee. But even off that, like, it's interesting because they've been in such an odd spot since Maya Moore retired. Like, you mean, you have the best player, arguably who's ever played the game at the height of her powers, retires. you have reverberations. They were still been good since then and had some playoff years.

But then, you know, like last year was rough for them. Like point blank. Like they were pretty poor defensively. They struggled with size. And I think that's something that, you know, they're still working around this year. But like, they really started to do some things on offense last year that were excited to me. I was like, okay, you know, they're running a lot of like, you know, early drag screens in the ghost stuff.

And like just doing all this stuff with shooting and movement that a lot of teams in the league haven't been doing, at least to the volume that this team does it. And now you just have that with the defense and some added stuff in their depth this year. And it's, I mean, it's been the best team in the league for the last month and a half. Yeah, a lot of good points there. I almost wonder if they're even a little bit Spursian in terms of just having, you know, you went through the, you went through the history there a little bit. But overall, they've had a lot of consistent success. They've been able to sort of just go into this Nefisa era without too much friction.

It hasn't been completely seamless. But just her emergence has given them a second win. And then you also have a coach in Cheryl Reeve, who's just so well respected and has been around forever and just seems like is always trying to like just push things forward in terms of like the ways that you can construct a team. So I think I almost wonder if it's more, they're a little bit. You can draw that comparison a little bit, but also especially because you were talking about 2014, that play style. I love the Utah Jazz comparison as well because the way that they play, I mean, oh my God, like, it's just so fun to watch.

It's like there's like this balletic preamble to every possession of just like dribble handoffs, fakes. You never know what is going to happen. That is actually probably like one of the most fun things. Like they feel their actions so well. Courtney Williams is such a great decision maker. and then you also just give her all these different options. Like you can basically, you know, I almost look at it. Like if they were a team that played like, let's say, like the James Hardin Rockets,

they would just spam Maphisa Collier and Courtney Williams pick and rolls all day long because Courtney Williams is just such a pull-up threat. She's such a great playmaker. And then with Collier, you can basically, like, you can do anything with her. She's such a great finisher. She's one of the best shooters. She can pop. She can slip.

You can run inverted pick. and rolls, you could just do that over and over and over again and basically just make three people come to the ball or try to guard it two on two and die. But they don't do that. They don't just rely on that. I honestly would not even call that their bread and butter. It feels like if anything, that feels like a decoy so much of the time to then get into something with Caleb McBride, maybe run an inverted pick and roll with her and Nefisa. It's just, it's so fun to watch. sometimes when I'm trying to figure out what they're doing, I almost have to like, sometimes put their games in like 0.75 speed because I'm like, okay, what is going on right now?

Like, how exactly did you guys score in this situation? But it just feels absolutely unguardable because on top of that, they play a five-out style. And they have shooters in Bridget Carlton and Alana Smith who are shooting above 42% from the three-point line. You have Caleb McBride, who's a 40% three-point shooter. there is just no safe option and all of those players on top of that can also attack closeouts. They can pop, they can cut.

They're really smart. They set each other up well. It's just, it's beautiful basketball. Yeah, it's, I love what you said in terms of just talking about how much they have in terms of like looking at like the, the hard in comparison is what I love that you brought up and talking about veiling their actions

because I think part of what makes Fee so much fun to watch this season. is like she just like quietly scores 20 points per game which like I don't mean that as like a shot at how people score I just think it's like the way she does things it's it's very much not like I'm the focal point of everything it's it's much more of like thinking of um kind of like how players are like hubs of offense like somebody who I think like we don't really have access to this kind of data yet but I think if there was like just something in terms of like touches like pure like okay how many elbow touches per?

game does a player get. I think few would probably lead the league. They're obviously her or Asia. But just like she is always touching the ball, always make an impact. I think her actual assist numbers really underrate how good and impactful of a passer she is, like especially out of post-ups. Like I think just her out of the middle of the floor is so lethal. Even if it's not a scoring option for her, it's just about like keeping the defense moving because again, like going off the veiling point, like I think so much of what makes this team difficult is they are always moving. And any team that has had trouble defending them, looking, especially at the Aces in their most recent matchups,

like, they just play so fast and with the speed that honestly, the Aces have been the team that has been able to play with the last two years. But they bring a different level with this with so much extra motion to it. And motion that you have to guard too. Like, I think it's motion that's going to matter in the playoffs. Like, it's not just stuff that you have to worry about in the regular season. Um, that's just something. That's just something. a difficult thing to actually handle. And the fun part about Fee, again, is, like, there isn't really a great player to guard her.

Like, there, you, you, I mean, like, granted, like, any star in the league is going to have to draw two on the ball, right? But I think so much of trying to win games in the playoffs is, like, how much can we try and get away with doing some stuff in single coverage at points? And, like, it's just, there's nobody who is small enough that can stay in front, but also be strong enough to keep her from driving past them. There's nobody who's big enough that is quick enough to guard everything without fouling. Like she's just such a difficult proposition for anybody to guard,

especially like, I mean, she shoots like 45% from the mid range on really freaking difficult shots. And again, it's just, it's very much a damned if you do, damned if you don't. And not to like keep going and going, but like I think, again, with Courtney, Courtney has been so phenomenal for this team. she really found like a verve as a pick and roll creator last year i think that was the most she'd ever run pick and roll if synergy has a tract rate um and it's only been more this season and like it's just she's so automatic i think she's so fun for me because she's a player where like if you put her in a place that's like a little bit less structured um where like when she was in

connecticut she was like really good as a bucket getter and creating some offense in a pinch but like i think putting her in this system has been so good for getting the most out of her vision and her ability as a player because it's just make the right read, make it quickly. She's one of the best pocket passers in the league. She's going to read the baseline cutter. If you take anything away from her

and two-player game in the middle of the floor, she just does the right thing. And having that player has set them apart. I mean, I love Lindsay Allen. Zallon is one of my favorite players in the league because she just does so many things well. But I think it just speaks to the importance of having a player who can score

on top of being a passer as well. Like, you need somebody who can be a threat because they had moments last year where they were almost the top offense in the league for, like, the back end of the season when they started Lindsay Allen. And that was with, I mean, she was having the most aggressive scoring season of her career in scoring,

like seven or eight points per game. Like, so I think you just look at, you know, how they elevated that and took that to a higher standard. And it's just, I mean, it makes this offense so potent. Yeah, I mean, they have this sort of ball finds energy movement begets movement like contagious thing going on too. It was like I wrote a piece about just like the biggest W&BA storylines two weeks ago. And one of the things I noticed was just going through the history of all the all the starters.

Every starter is having either their best or second best assisting season ever in their career on the links right now. You brought up Nefisa, her assist numbers, 3.5 assists as a big is really good. good, especially like given the context that she plays in, not being the primary creator. I think, you know, for people who do kind of pay attention to how those stats can differ based on position, like, I think that does paint a pretty good picture for, you know, how important she has been as a playmaker. But I also, I love that you kind of brought up the fact that she does things quietly because that feels like a big evolution in her game. It feels like your game has just gotten a little less quiet. And the links, a video or social department, shout out,

to them. They posted like an awesome, awesome video of basically the rest of the play. Actually, Fee included doing basically like a faux hot ones challenge while they also had to make a MVP and defensive player of the year case for fee. We got to talk about their defense at some point too. It was really funny. It was also just like Alana Smith doing the sign of the cross before eating a hot wing was just absolutely crazy. That was so me. I'm absolutely, I'm a disgrace to my race when it comes to spice. It's not great, but I definitely, I felt seen. I felt seen and understood.

And like, you know, what more can you ask for from any, any piece of art? So shout out to them. But what, like, you know, I think the whole point of it, though, was that she is a little louder. She's a little spicier. She had, you know, this moment that we referenced earlier in the pod against the storm, waving goodbye to Jewel Lloyd in a matchup against, against the Seattle Storm. She has this way of, you know, I think maybe in the past, like falling into the background sometimes,

but she shows how good she is when she's in the foreground. Like this is just such an aggressive, fully actualized version of her. And I'm just curious, like from somebody's watched her through the years a lot closer than I have. Like, what do you think has like made the flip switch for her? I mean,

I think part of it's just being asked to, you know, like you think of when she came into the league when she was playing on, still a very veteran team that was the bones of a dynasty. You still have Sylvia Fowles, who was in all, WMBA player when she came in. And I think part of what's interesting, and it's like, obviously, like, I haven't talked

with Fiaton, but just in talking to players in general who have, like, had to make that kind of leap of, you know, changing your role so much, right? Like, it's not easy. So I think that's part of what's so fascinating about her is, like, being a player, like, part of it's like, yeah, she still does what she does. She's been the player who can really do everything. But I think that she's been able to heighten it to the level she has is what stands out to me.

Like, it's just not easy to continue doing what you do, but do more of it. Like, I think people have this idea, particularly and like more on the NBA side, like, oh, well, if you just have the ball on your hands more, you're fine. But like, there's so much that goes into it with like, you know, just thinking through things. Like, okay, well, now my volume changes. Like, you know, if I'm making this pass, do I feel good about making this pass? Do I need to take the shot more?

Like, I was talking to a player about this the other day. who had to do like a they had like a 10% usage increase last year which is massive for for those not like super in tune with that and she was like honestly it's like the hardest thing I've ever dealt with because it's like all I'm I'm comfortable taking eight to 10 shots a game I'm not comfortable taking 15 like I don't love the idea of like having to take a shot knowing okay maybe I could pass my teammate but also I have to take it because I'm the star on the team and I don't if that fully answers your question but I think that's part of what has been I I mean, what's been so incredible with this?

Because even like, I mean, she was a star at Yukon, don't get me wrong. But like, even on that team in some ways, she was like, I mean, she did a lot of star things. But it was about the totality of that team. Like you have Gabby Williams. You have Azurray Stevens. You have Katie Lu Samuelson. Like that team was stacked and they played really great team basketball. So for her to kind of step into this kind of star role, I think it's just an evolution and process of her having to take that on.

Because I know like last year there was, you know, they had to have kind of. conversations and if you got told by Cheryl early on in the year, like, hey, we need you to do more. Like, you are the star of this team. I want you to take that over. Paraphrasing, of course, but like, yeah, I think it's just, she's kind of one of those rare cases of a player who has so much at her disposal that she's able to ramp up in a place where maybe she hadn't before, whereas most people are trying to kind of come down from a

higher role into a smaller one. Yeah, by the way, I don't want to make it sound like. She is now leading the W in usage either because I think one of the things that's most impressive about her is that last I checked, she was around 10th in that particular stat. And I'm always like, you know, you talk about the stats that you kind of wish we had access to. Like the one thing with her, I'm so curious. Like when you talked about elbow touches, I was like, man, like, I would love to know also like how long she dribble? How quickly does she get off the ball? You know, like are like what are those numbers like?

Because I think that also really speaks to, you know, her success within the context of this offense as well. and like just this sort of like this systemic integrity that they have. I just think it's one of the most special things about this offense. Like when you when you think about how to build, you know, a team and like how you want them to play, it can be tricky to figure out, okay, well, is this going to accentuate the star? Is it going to accentuate the role players? Because of Fee's style, I think they've been able to build a style that allows them to do both at the same time. Because everything that she does, you know, you have like the,

understudies in Alana and Bridget Carlton that can essentially kind of do the same thing when they step in for her or even playing at the same time. So you don't have to like necessarily have different sets for them. You can just place somebody in a different spot. You can have them, you know, at the high elbow or you can have one of them at the corner and just do that interchangeably and never really have to, you know, do like make specific changes. And I just think that that like for anybody, like any any team like I think that is always like the holy grail of the most functional offenses when you can do both. And you just see that with Minnesota.

And it's a lot of fun to watch. And also, you know, as we talk about how awesome she is in like this esoteric way, I have a bad habit of sort of digging into this stuff, but not, you know, getting into the main thing that I think fans want to hear about. Like, where do you think she is in the MVP conversation at this point? Yeah. Honestly, I don't have like a great way to put it. Like, I think if I had to, like, vote today, I mean, it would be Asia.

I think to me, I think Asia has just set herself apart with this level of play. I think she has been so clear-cut the best player in the field this season. But, and I'm not just making this point to sound like I'm fenced sitting, but I also understand the notion of Fee just beat the aces twice. And not just Fee, like the links beat the aces twice. Fee was dominant in both those games. Like, I can definitely understand voting for Nefisa Collier, and I don't think that she would be undeserving.

Like, I think part of what's hard for me is like, I was talking, you mentioned Steve Jones earlier, and it's funny because I was talking about this the other day, but I feel like the longer than I'm in in basketball, like the less I feel definitive about things. Like, I think there are just so many different ways to look at it and appreciate and understand things. And I think some people might look at that as fence sitting

and that's fair, I get that. But I also think it's just like, you know, value isn't, value is like a moldable object, right? Like value means something different to every team, to every player, to every person. And I think Fee definitely has a real case to be the person who should win this. I'm not sure she will, but yeah, so again, I'm not fully answering your question.

But I think it would be Asia for me. but Fee has been so exemplary this season that I would not fault that vote either. Yeah, I think it is one of those straight years where because of what Aja is doing, it's so difficult to really have a conversation about MVP. Like, we always talk about, are you in the MVP conversation? Yes, Fee is in the MVP conversation. But the conversation also kind of ends at Asia Wilson is having one of the greatest seasons in basketball history. And she is going to win the MVP because of that, especially with the Aces getting back.

on track. But I do think that, you know, just that game, beyond the MVP stuff, I think I think about it in terms of like playoff implications. I know that the links and the aces, I don't think would face each other until the finals if they were to meet. But man, like, boy, did that, those two games make me feel really, really good about the ace, the links chances, just because you mentioned it earlier. Honestly, the links make the aases look slow.

And granted, it was kind of, you know, it was in a. in a moment for the Aces where Chelsea Gray was coming back from injury, and they were just kind of, their defense was a little bit lax. They've picked it up. Maybe they'd do a bit better job. But, like, man, I just, for, through the course of an entire series, I just think that playing the links would be exhausting for a team that is trying to complete a three-p had, I mean, the Lynx also had a bunch of players at the Olympics, too.

So can't really necessarily make that case. but it was just it was a really fascinating game and I think one of the most fascinating things was stretch of games rather those two games was the way that everybody was able to give Asia

so many different looks on defense starting with Collier also spending so much time guarding her one-on-one and getting away with it which is just not something that we've seen this season at all with Asia like that was one of the few games games where it felt like they forced her to up her playmaking to be a little bit sharper.

And ultimately, it just wasn't enough because, you know, that it was just, I mean, it was kind of a tale of two games in that way. But there were just a number of moments where I was like, man, like, this is different. Yeah, I think it's kind of fun because to me, this, this links team is almost like, I don't know if you ever played like super random shot and my girlfriend's going to get, you know, laugh at me because I always give analogies that people don't remember or or recognize. But if you ever play Sid Meier Civilization, it's kind of like when somebody gets to, I can't tell if that laugh is because you have played this game or not.

I have no idea what that is. Okay. Oh, wow, great. Okay. So, I mean, yeah, it's like when, okay, imagine like you're playing a game where you and your friends are like building up civilization, right? And one person gets to like replaceable parts in the industrial area, like, eons before somebody else.

And that's what I think of with the links in some ways. Like they are a team that they just, they have differences in what they bring off the bench. But so much of it just fits into what their ethos is. Like I think you have games where Cecilia and Alicini plays like two stints, but then you have games where she closes and she plays 20 minutes and she's awesome. She's, I think, leading the league in three point percentages here or close to it, she's been, it feels like she never misses. But then, again, just has real size.

Like they have a game where now it's, with Myisha Hines Allen in the mold. They play, I believe the lineup was Courtney Williams, Fee, Myisha, C.C. and Atlanta Smith. And like, that's so much size. That's so much length. But then you don't lose anything mobility-wise. You don't lose anything playmaking-wise.

You don't lose anything with the shooting. And most importantly, too, and I feel like we haven't even hit on it yet, which I'm bad at myself for it. But, like, their defense is what makes them different. Like, they have real meaningful versatility on defense. And that's why I love them going out and getting my Eisha Hines Allen because, again, a player who can draw to make the right plays, hit an open shot, drive the basketball, but also gives them more size. Like she's one of the best defensive rebounders in the league the last couple years. She can guard up.

She can guard down a little bit. She knows how to play within the context of a really good team, having been on the 2019 Mystics. So it just gives them more options. And I think the biggest thing, too, again, like that I have to like hammer. very similar to the NBA is like you want the best, you want to have the best offense on the floor without losing anything defensively, I think is where it's at. And I think, again, the last couple of years have been seeing,

I don't think you necessarily see it as much in a starting lineups yet. And I think that's starting to change. But especially in benches, like, you don't have teams coming out with like a true post as they're big off the bench. Like you have somebody coming out like, I think Connecticut, like Olivia Nelson and Dota is a player who can make those high post reads who can be a really active rim protector, but also play out on the perimeter a little bit in more aggressive defenses.

Like you have every team is making those adjustments to become more, quote unquote, replaceable off the bench and being teams that can play with that versatility. But Minnesota just has that to such a high level that other teams can't replicate right now. Like obviously some of the top can. But it's just, I think it's kind of like that sort of arms race a little bit in becoming meaningfully versatile and being able to put it into practice. Yeah, I mean, the links, they're already there. And one thing I've been trying to figure out is, okay, you know, every team has weaknesses, right?

But then when you do get poked in your weak spots, you know, just how much of a factor is that? Do you have other mitigating factors that can make you, you know, can allow you to overcome that will you win other margins? and I do think that that's one thing that also makes me like really high on them. I've been, I'm not a betting person, but I've been looking at their odds throughout the course of the season, especially since the break. And I kind of wish, I wish I hit on something earlier because it went from like, it's like plus 1,100 and then plus 500, and then plus 400. I'm not sure what it is today.

But it just feels like they're inching closer and closer to being one of those teams. But, you know, you look at, you know, even games where they don't. necessarily rebound the ball that well if they get out rebounded. They're still, I think, like five and one in the games where they've been out rebounded most this season. The games where they turn it over, they're still doing okay as well. So I don't know, it just makes me feel like, yes, they do have weaknesses, but they can just pummel you in other areas. They'll beat you in the three-point margin. They'll beat you in transition points. They will suppress your scoring. They'll suppress your assist. Like that was another thing in the Aces game too, where, you know,

I think the first one, Aja really, she was making a lot of plays. And the second one, it was just like the amount of hesitance that they drew out of her because she just didn't know what they were going to do. Like, you know, you've got like somebody like Collier that could be, you know, two places at once. And, you know, they're really good at shrinking the floor. They almost make you feel like there's six people on the floor at once at certain times. Like, it's just really, really hard to deal with. It just feels like the problems they present are way bigger than the problems that they have to face.

But it does make me wonder if there's one team in the W, who they might actually be facing in the semifinals, based on the current bracket, that could have a really good shot at them, which is the Connecticut Sun. It's a team that they've lost to twice. One of the only teams, the Dallas Wings are the only other team that they've lost to twice.

And I guess it kind of like brings me full circle with a modernization point, because the thing with the Sun is that they have a very modern defense. They've tried to shore up their shooting with trading for Marina Maybrey, at the deadline. So their offense isn't quite there. It's getting there.

But their defense is just, it feels like one of the few defenses that is fast enough, that is reactive enough, that has a player like Alyssa Smith, who can switch on to guards, who is like strong guard like T.J. at Carrington at the head of the snake, who is also like, I mean,

you're so good at breakdowns. I feel like one day I just need you to do like the breakdown of how it is that Carrington gets all of these perimeter steals. that everybody knows are coming. Like every simple perimeter pass that you just want to get into your basic action, even the action before the action, she is just there every single time.

So that's my request to you to create a little bit of extra work for you. But I'm curious what you think. Actually, something in the works. We'll see you when, but I do think it's in the works. Okay, that's awesome. Awesome.

But yeah, I think it's interesting because you pinpointed the exact matchup. I don't think that I would want it for Minnesota. I think that they would play better now that they've had some time together. Because if I remember correctly, I want to say both those matchups happened like pretty decently before the All-Star break. Yeah, one of them was went to overtime. It was like one of the first games of the season.

The second one, Collier, actually left with a foot injury. Yeah, yeah, you have to, yeah, you got to account with that. Well, I do think with the sun, the hard part is like this team, I think this Links team is so good at guarding. Like, Asia's an incredibly forceful player, like is so good going towards the room. but I think, like her biggest weapon that gets her going towards the rim is her face-up game and, like, being able to play from the mid-range in. And I also think part of it, too, is, like, the guards are not as, like, I don't know, the guards just have not been themselves this year for a lot of the season, if we're being honest.

Like, I think, I mean, Jackie's been in a bit of a slump. She was awesome defensively last night, but, I mean, I'm just not used to seeing her have single-digit box scores the last couple years. A lot of hesitancy. A lot of hesitants on open shots last night. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's made a lot harder to play in the paint. So I think that could be different. But it's just so different with Connecticut because Brie Jones, to me, like, I would say

is the best, like, pure or low post player in the league. I might get some pushback to that. But I'm talking like, okay, you know, Asia, John Quill Jones, they play a lot more like high post in, high post, mid post. And Bree is like purely like in the restricted area on the block. I would say Bree is just about the most difficult player to stop other than like Tierra McAllen. And I think especially for the links, like, that is the one thing that I'll be so interested to see with how does Myisha Hyand Allen factor in with that?

Like, how do you make that hurt? Like, can you really make that make an impact? And especially, like, you know, like just like we talked about with the possession balance early on. Like, I think that's a team. It's just harder to have any kind of, like if we are not hitting from outside, this gets really difficult for us type thing. but I also think, I don't know, because then like, even with Bree, like, she can still play comfortably away from the basket on defense, so it makes it harder because, like, especially against a lot of the pure five teams, you know, Minnesota has loved going to like the

Courtney Atlanta one five picking roll and just Atlanta popping and they'll spam that and like just kind of play some players off the court. But then you have some games where like, okay, if Atlanta gets into foul trouble, but that's not working, which I will say, I think Atlanta Smith has had like the worst whistle in the this year. I'm sure, again, people will disagree with that, but it's been, like, rough. I think, yes, she does foul, but also she's just in the right place a lot of the time and she's long. So it sucks. But, yeah, point being, I think that just like the pure physicality that this Sun team brings and how well they attack the interior brings a lot of problems for the

links that I think kind of exacerbates some of their weaknesses. But I still think, like, it would be a big toss-up for me. Like, I have a lot of confidence. confidence in the Sun team, but I just think this Link's team is like they just, to me, they just feel like a team wants to get to the playoffs. I don't know, man. I do not do not want any part of them. Yeah, I'm kind of with you. I think it is one of the more interesting matchups. They do keep trading places for the second and third seats. So we still don't know who's going to have home court in that series, which is going to be something that's fun to watch too. The links have a game against a Liberty on Sunday. Potential finals matchup, also rematch of the commissioners cup.

that's going to be really fun to watch. Before we get you out of here, is there anything you want to plug? Yeah. Just first off, thank you for having me on. I sincerely mean, I love your work. I have for a long time. I'm just really stoked that you have this show going

and get to keep highlighting your voice now in the women's game more. If anybody is not already, be sure to go subscribe to my YouTube channel they've got now, doing a lot of, you know, kind of Mike Schmitz-esque film room studies with players for the 2025 draft, have a lot of those backlogged in the work. So, yeah, check those out. You also had a great interview with Snyder Rivers. For those of you who watched a tournament, she had an incredible run with NC State last year.

And she's going to be really fun to watch. And, hey, college basketball, also right around the corner. and we are going to be getting into some of that too. So stick around with us. Thank you, Mark, for being here. That's this week's episode. Thanks for tuning in, guys. If you have any questions, any suggestions, feedback,

you can always hit me up at Sir at Sohey on Twitter. If not, we will talk to you next Friday.