The Ringer NBA Show - Addressing the Reports of Racism and Misogyny Under Robert Sarver at the Phoenix Suns | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 4, 2021

Logan and Raja sit down for a conversation about the bombshell reporting from ESPN’s Baxter Holmes detailing racism and misogyny within Robert Sarver’s Phoenix Suns organization (0:25). They discuss some of the anecdotes in the story, some of Raja’s personal experiences, and the pervasive issues of racism and sexism within the NBA. Then Raja airs his grievances about the most recent dysfunction in Boston and gives his Real One of the Week (46:25). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Additional Production: Juliet Litman and Tunde St. Matthew Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is back and so is the Ringer NFL show. Coming at you five days a week with wall-to-wall coverage from recapping the Sunday games, giving a player perspective, deep dives, and previewing the coming slate. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping? Ruins. Logan Murdoch, Roger Bell here. Roger. Yo, yo. Roger.

Let me check my levels. I'm checking my levels. You're checking your levels right now. I make sure my levels are good for this one. My levels are good. You might need to, yeah, dog. So we had a whole. other show to talk about today.

We had another rundown. We're in the pod. We're doing the pre-pod meeting. It's really jovial. We're talking about, you know, I saw Sasha Mac at the Warriors game last night. It was a great night. It was just jovial.

We were going to talk about Boston Celtics because Raja was like, I want to talk about the Boston Celtics. I want to talk. We need to talk about them. And then we're doing the meeting. And I see a look on Sasha's face. and it's just like, oh, my goodness, right?

And then she just says the story dropped and she puts it in the chat. And this is a story we've been waiting on for weeks. Robert Sarver is the owner of the sons and he probably takes that title a little bit too literally. Considering a story that just dropped with ESPN and Baxter Holmes, it is a gauntlet of a story. It is a bombshell.

It is long as hell. It is just a lot of stuff detailing. Racism, misogyny, sexism, all the above. There is an anecdote about Robert Sarver pantsing a guy, showing off his wife in a bikini in meetings. There is him talking about, can I say the N-word when other players, when he sees Draymond Green saying the N-word during a game?

There's just so many anecdotes that paint up. pattern of racism, misogyny, and all these things. And this isn't new with the Sons, right? We've, we've heard this behind the scenes, you know, me and Roger talk about this periodically when we talk about the Sons stories and some stories that you're going to hear today about Robert Sauer, just being an asshole and just being, doing all these things that painted. This isn't new as all that I'm saying. And I want to say before we get this, for most of the stuff in here, Robert Sauer, through his attorney, is quoted in this and is denied pretty much everything, except for a few things in the pantsing episode.

He did not deny on that one, but most of these he's denied through his attorney. So I just want to make sure we have that in there as well. Raja, knowing that this has all come to light, what are your immediate reactions? Yeah, I didn't have any blatantly racist interaction with Robert Sarver. Right? Like, I didn't have anywhere I was being called the N-word

or heard the N-word come out of his mouth or anything like that. I want to be fair to him in that regard. I have said before, though, and I've shared situations in which, you know, I was spoken to or one of my loved ones was spoken to in a way that made you question how the other person on the other end of the conversation viewed you, you know, because there's a way you see say things. You know, it's a difference between being spoken to and spoken at, you know? And so I've had interactions like that with Robert Sarver, but it's not surprising to me. Phoenix deserves better, especially this year, if that makes sense, right? Like, I feel weird saying that, but, you know, they are in a window. They just went to the finals.

This is going to be an insurmountable distraction for that team. It's going to be a mess. So I feel bad for Phoenix Suns fans, the players on the team. But generally, Logan, I've dealt with a lot of owners. And certainly all owners aren't bad people, and all owners don't conduct themselves the way he's been accused of conducting himself. But it's not a surprising thing when you tell me someone in an ownership position in one of these leagues

may act like that or harbor some of these feelings. It's not surprising to me. There was one idea that I really want to get into, at least first. And this is from Earl Watson, who is really big, a really big character in this story. It seems like he is the catalyst of the story in general, and then everything just builds around Earl Watson's experiences. But one of those things that he said was that, you know, we need a bit more diversity in the building.

And, you know, very fair requests considering where we are as a society right now. You know, we want to have a diverse set of minds. And, you know, by and large, that's proven that, hey, you know, that makes a company better. So he says, hey, I want some more diversity, Mr. Sarver. And according to Watson, Sarver says, I don't like diversity. which is a wild thing to say I'm sorry I know this is a serious one but that is a wild thing to say

I don't like diversity and according to Watson Sarver said having a diverse staff makes it hard for people to agree which is a wild thing to say it's a wild thing to say what do you mean it makes it so we just need one point of view

I think that right there is the basis that really just that blows the story one, wide open. And two just kind of shows the culture that is in Phoenix. When we talk about misogy, we talk about racism, we talk about sexism and things like that, especially during this time when the NBA says, hey, we are with our black players and we are with our players of color. We are with women. We are with for diversity. When you have a guy say something like, I don't like diversity, obviously he, you know, has denied these things, right? I want to make

sure that has put it out there. But when you get these these little anecdotes from people that have work with him. It's pretty concerning, Raja. It's pretty concerning. And also, in light of, you know, we had Donald Sterling about, what, not a decade ago, but just under a decade ago, we had Donald Sterling the things that he said and the racist remarks that he said, Robert Sarver, you could make a compelling argument. He needs to get the fuck up out the paint. Just even off of that alone. What do you think when you say, when you hear, I don't like diversity and I don't like these things? How do you feel about that? Is that on brand?

What is that, what is that feel? Do you go back and think, oh, this is, how are you processing this right now? Yeah, I mean,

I will say this again. No blatantly racist interaction with Robert Sarver. Having said that, I think I've been clear that I'm not the biggest Robert Sarver fan, right? And so it does make me reflect on some of my interactions with Robert Sarver, some of the ones he had with my wife, some of the ones that I was privy to,

with his kids on the bus. And what it always brings me back to was my general feeling around there was this is a spoiled person who's been spoiled, been raised with certain means. To some degree probably feels like rules don't apply. And in his current position with this franchise really feels like he owns it in every sense of that word. not like I bought the franchise and I am on a team now and we are working towards a common goal together. I just happen to be the head of the organization.

But literally I own this and the people that work for this. Not a business owner. No, an owner of people is what you do you feel. You can own a business and be a cooperating partner and a hands on. and we're all in this together, you know, we win together, we lose together type of person. You know what I mean? And then there's another type of owner where like I own you. And I reflect on the conversation.

I'll tell it again about the contract extension I wanted. Yeah, it was a bold swing on my part, but we were playing well. Like, and, you know, we were an ascending team. And so I went in that I wasn't up for an extension, but I could have gotten an extension. And I was hoping there was goodwill. I don't even care that there wasn't. That's not the point. It was the way he said it to me that left me feeling like,

let's let's talk again. I'll tell it again. I went in, Steve Kerr was at the lunch and we were in a salad. And we talked about it. He asked something and I said, yeah, I'd like an extension. I really love it here. My family loves it here. Like, I'm in my prime and feel like my career should end here.

And he's eaten and he said, like, just matter of fact and casually, like, do you deserve an extension? Yes. am I going to give you one? No. All right? And I was, could have been done. Could have been done, right? He said, do you want to know why? And I said, yeah.

He said, because I don't have to. And then just kept, you know, going about his business. Again, you can feel how you want to feel about that. But I felt really shitty because there's a way you do that. I'm still there. I'm still playing for your team. I'm still a part of what's going on. It's still my family.

And that's the way you chose to, like message me that day. There was a lot of different ways where we could have, well, you could have had the same, you could have had the same message for me and just packaged it different if you cared to. And you didn't.

And that's okay. That doesn't make you racist, but it does make you someone who doesn't really care about the people, you know, or at least you didn't care about me that day, right? And so those are, those are things that I have to reflect on when,

when something like this comes up. Did, I know when we were, because we, it was a very, I want to give full transparency to the real one. out there. Before this pod, you know, we usually get into the pod

and we usually, like, we probably talk for like 10 minutes. This was like an hour conversation before the pod. And during the pod, Ra was just hitting motherfuckers. He was just calling people, just hitting people. Just was like, yo, all my Phoenix pot is, let's assemble. I'm sure the group chat is popping right now. Have you gotten any reactions from

anybody else? Like, how does, how are people feeling from your era? What's going on? It's universally the same. thing I said when you asked me. No one is surprised. And, you know, I'm not getting into putting names out there. And I'm certainly not going to tell anyone else's story it's there as to tell. But, but everyone has said in one way or another that this isn't a surprising thing to them. And then going on to give a little bit of backstory as to why it's not. So, you know, it's not. Like we touched

on, I mean, I don't know. I'll share this. I'm sure my wife doesn't mind. I was, it probably was 06, maybe 07, the All-Star game was in Houston, right? And it was the first time, you know, I was really shooting the ball. Mike D. Antonio had freed me up to shoot it. And Steve was putting it on my hands, and I shot it well. And so they asked me to shoot in the three-point contest. And my wife happened to be pregnant. And so I went to Houston, I'm super excited to be there, ready to rep for the sons. And I got a call for my wife. She miscarried. And, you know, I had a choice to make. I could shoot the next day and hang out that night and then go home or I could get on the first thing smoking and go home. And I chose to go home. Like it was an easy decision for me. Like it wasn't

even a big deal. Like I'm out. And that was kind of the end of it until Robert Sarver one night was on a flight with us. And my wife came back to her seat. And you know, when you've been with someone that long, you know them. So I could tell. I was like, man, something is well. She's fuming right now. And I was like, yo, what's up? She was like, that motherfucker. Like she just went off. And I was what had you slow down what happened and she said that she had you ready to ride you ready to ride yeah because who knows what happened at that point i don't know it's a lot of people on the plane right yeah and so you know she's like um you know robert sarver i just ran to robert sarver up in the front and i was like well what happened and she said well he said something to me about how lucky i

should feel to have you that you would leave you know the all-star game to come home and be with me after i miscarried and i that was really fucked up like not only is it super insane sensitive and you're not even, you know, acknowledging the fact that we just went through something really traumatic and she just went through something even more traumatic that either one of us could ever imagine. But to allude to the fact that like my priorities, and she should be lucky to have me because my priorities were to come home and be with her, just completely marginalized who she was as a person. You know what I mean? Like, and it was super shitty. And, you know, she never, she never forgave Robert for that. And to this day, probably wouldn't

speak to Robert Sarver if she saw him. But again, at the, time, Logan, in the midst of everything going on in my world, it wasn't something that I really sat down there and really dug into and and parsed out for what it really was. But in retrospect, and now given a little context, you're like, ah, yeah, I can see that. Roger, that's fucked up, man. And like, that ties into, when we look in the story, the overall picture of how women are treated in this organization. You know, there's this time that is spoken about in the story about a pregnant son's employee who was helping coordinate the 2009 All-Star Game in Phoenix was told by Sarver that she wouldn't be able to continue the role because she was pregnant. And this is cooperated by two employees with knowledge of these remarks.

The two employees said that Sarver explained that the woman would be breastfeeding and would need to be home with her newborn. Now, Sarver has denied this through his attorney and said that he was 100% behind. the woman and helping her in any way that she can. Just the overall way that he has been painted to treat women in the story. Even his own wife is

putting pictures of her in a bikini and showing that around. And one staffer said it's like we were playing hot potato with the picture. And he doesn't all, 100% deny this as hey man, there was just this these new merchandise and I just wanted to show it off and it got misconstrued.

No, man, it just seems like you were objectifying women in this one. And just talk about it's just an overall culture of just being toxic to everyone involved in this organization. What does that do for an organization when you see stuff like that where everybody is on edge in this way? And we know this. Everybody's just trying to get into the MBA. They're trying to get a job. They're trying to support their family. All they ask for is a healthy work environment.

Even if you were doing that stuff, it's not cool. At the very least, it makes you uncomfortable. At the worst, it's sexual harassment. What do you feel when you hear these things? And what kind of effect does that have on an organization? Well, I think, you know, it's a shame, first and foremost, right, for the people who had to endure, you know, some of those experiences. But I think organizationally and big picture for me, you feel like you got less than the best out of what we had there. and I say that because if you're operating,

and I know firsthand how hard it is to get into that fucking fraternity. Now, I wasn't in the executive offices at that point in my career. I was on the court, but I know what kind of sacrifices have to be made, and I know how many doors get shut in your face and how many people tell you you can't do it. So I know what it feels like to be there and just be happy to be there.

So to have someone looming over you and creating a culture of fear, you can't do your best job. You're just trying to survive, right? And like I'm getting a little emotional because that's fucked up. And it makes you feel like you probably didn't get the best, not only out of us as players, but out of the people in that building, because you're really just trying to, you know,

avoid the wrath or the whatever it is from whoever it has it and just kind of keep surviving in this world that you've always aspired to be in. And so you're going to get less than people's best. And that's a shame. But I will say, like, I read the article and like one of, or I played with Earl. Earl is a great dude. Man, one of Kansas cities, you know, fine, this, bro.

Earl's my guy. To hear him with the Rich Paul, like there was an anecdote in there about, about when Bledsoe, they were trying to tank and they had sat Bledsoe down and then it was time to renegotiate. And the gist of it is Robert Sarber tried to use Bledso's numbers against him, I guess, even though they had sat Bledsoe down. and Rich Paul kind of wasn't with it. And they got into some sort of, you know, what it happens.

Like you're in a negotiation, right? Like not everyone is going to be the same mindset, right? And I guess that's that old, I don't like diversity shit. But, you know, he was offended and threatened Earl Watson, who was also a clutch sports client, that if he didn't drop clutch sports and Rich Paul as representation, that he would fire him.

and then made Earl Watson choose. Like Earl asked him if that was actually factual, right? Because Earl's that type of dude. And Robert was like, yeah, it is. You either drop them, you got 10 days. Drop them or keep your job. Like that you, that's a place of, you're operating from a place of fear.

Everyone is living in a constant state of fear. And you cannot get people's best like that. You can't get people's best like that. And then all I see in this when I read it is people don't feel safe. there's no way you can feel safe in that environment. And when you don't feel safe, you're not going to perform. You're going to, you're not, man. I can't imagine that.

I can't even put myself in a position of your wife or the pregnant son's employee who went through what they went through. I couldn't even imagine that. But damn, dude, you know, when you hear about traumatic stuff, you see why it's systematic. you see why forget the team shit forget like the on court stuff but it's an overall symptom of how how bad something can get and what are the ramifications when that happens i'm sorry to interrupt you but like i while this is robert sarver and phoenix sun centric right now

and i don't want to minimize that at all i want to be clear i've been in other organizations this isn't this isn't a you know this isn't a a one-off this isn't like an anomaly Like this is, you know, I've told the stories before about being on the executive side and having to remind people that these are not commodities on a board that are being traded. This isn't like the opening bell of the stock market where pieces are just being moved and we're buying and we're selling and I own and now I traded. But way too often, you know, that's the way it works. And so while definitely like this article is about Robert Sarva and the Sons, it's bigger than that, man. Like this is, and I know people don't want to hear it. And, you know, like we're going to do this shit.

Fuck it. I don't like doing it, but we're going to do it. I saw something the other day about Kaepernick, right? And he's got his Netflix show, right? And people were all up in arms because he said something about the NFL draft being like a slave auction. Right? And people were livid. And what I read a lot because I got into those comments and read,

like, well, does Tom Brady, you know, feel like a slave or does whatever feel like a slave? Now, look, I'm not, the fact is these leagues, and while Tom Brady and other white athletes are huge parts of the leagues, right, they're not the overwhelming majority of the leagues. They're in it too. So yeah, like, they should feel like that. If that, yes, the answer to that is yes. Like, if you're being poked and prodded and length taken and all of that, then yeah. Like, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be black and white to feel. like someone feels like they own you. Yeah.

Right? You don't have to be black or any, or any race for that matter, for someone to, like, speak to you and project on you that they're better than you and they own you. And it happens all the time in sports. Yeah. And I think just an overall thing and there's something,

and even in our coverage, because I can speak to that. I want to get to your, your experiences as a player in a second. But even in the way we cover the league sometimes, man, I go on, I go on TV,

I watch TV shows. the people that are talking will say, hey, man, such and such is a very hot commodity in the marketplace. It's like, dude, the motherfucker has a name, has a human being, has a family. He is not a fucking number.

And I just don't like how we forget a lot of the times or maybe we don't care, but these are people. But what do you think when, you know, as a player, when there's an overall culture of being owned by ownership and everything like that where it just seems like you're just a highly played commodity

and you're not necessarily an employee that that makes all this shit pop. How does that make you feel when you get that culture around where it seems like, no, Roger, you're not, you're not, you're just a number and you can be replaced? The brainwashing starts early is what I'm going to say to you, Logan. It starts really early. And you're made to feel lucky to be there. You know, you hear it all the fucking time. Oh, I mean, you should be lucky.

You get to dribble a ball. Oh, you feel luck. You should be lucky. You get to pay luck in my ass. Like, what are you talking about? I ain't go to a prom. I didn't go to a homecoming. I didn't do, like, I spent an entire lifetime trying to achieve this.

Nobody calls a hedge fund manager lucky. Yeah. Right? They say he's brilliant. Like, he's like, no one does. that. So it's deep though, dog. It's deep. So they make you feel so I say that to say that when you're in it and you're a player like me, I can admit this. It didn't affect me the way it should have. I should have been, I should have taken some of those experiences really reflected, like known self and been

like, yo, don't fucking do that to me. But I didn't because I was happy to be there. I was, I felt lucky to be making that type of money and getting to live my dream and play basketball. right? And so sometimes people pray on that and they keep you in that box and they keep you feeling like like, yo, I can. And because admittedly, you know, I wanted to play in the NBA. And so like I wasn't trying to bite the hand that fed me. Like I was, you know, even if I felt, and I'm saying this again because I want to be clear, I did not have an interaction where I, I went home in night and was like, God, dog, that was some racist ass and had to swallow my pride. I didn't have one of those. But if I did, I don't know what I would have done because that was my livelihood.

It's what I had worked my whole life for. It's what I had earned the right to do. And I didn't want that taken away from me. Right. And so, you know, like, I don't know how else to put it. Like, that's just, it's the world that you operate in. And as players, you do compartmentalize. Like, you talk that shit.

Like I've said before about young, young Sarver, I think, I don't remember which one of his sons. I have no problem with the young man. they were good kids, man. I'm sure they're great young men now. Like, I don't know. I don't know them. But they would frequently hop on our buses or our planes where, you know, these are seats people sit in every day.

Like this isn't like a one-off. It ain't like I sit in that seat today. And then two weeks later, I'm in that seat. I sit in this seat. Like, for 100 games with the preseason, like, this is where I'm going to sit. This is where Steve's going to sit. That's where Amari. That's where Sean, Leandro, Boris.

You know, this is where we sit. And when those little dudes hop on your plane, and plane rides are even more. Bus rides can be short. Plain rides are long flights. And you're typically playing cards or doing something like that. So it's imperative that you sit in that seat

or you ain't in a card game. And you guys are all about routine. We're all about routine. And so you got to, let's see, we had a two four, eight man poker game going on, right? To hop on the plane and have someone be excluded

from the eight man poker game that he's always in for a five-hour flight because the owner's son, who's seven wants to sit in that seat, is kind of shitty. And it's even shittier to have said kid turn around and say, yeah, my dad owns the plane. I mean, owns the team, right?

Now, that happened on a bus, like my dad owns the team. But the same sentiment could have been, you know, inferred or what have you on the plane because he's already told you. My dad owns this shit. This is where I'm going to sit. And so as players, we're just like, you know, it sucks. We talk a little shit about it.

But then we go out there the next night and we do our job because we get paid well to do it. And ain't nobody beefing about that. But, you know, it can make you feel shitty. You guys are taught to compartmentalize a lot of things or also use that shit as fuel, right? Like, oh, if somebody's, you know, especially us, too as black men is when we hear like, oh, some racist shit or even if it's anything that we hear, we're used to like, oh, fuck you, I'm going to show you, like, fuck you. That's basically the sentiment that we feel. And I can imagine on a bigger level, that's something that you would just have to compartmentalize because you don't want to allow that to ruin your dream. You don't want to fucking do that.

It's like, okay, well, this happened. I got to move forward because you're constantly taught to that as a professional athlete. You got to go through the adversity, right? Whatever that means. Listen, if you cried enough, if they, there was a time. I don't know what the culture is in the NBA now. But you get blackballed for that, bro. Yeah.

They had your ass out that lead, quick fast and in a hurry. Off top. Will holl him. Ask Craig Hodges. Ask Mahmoud Abdul Ralph. You got to go. And so we're not like, those dudes might have been stronger. I don't know.

I'm not, I don't know their whole case history and what have you. But for a player like me, you know, I'm, hey, bro, I'm trying to make this living, bro. It's my job. There's just so many anecdotes in this thing. There was the one, the anecdote that I really, that we, that just pissed both me and Rajah off was, we'll call it the Carlton anecdote. is when two former, I'm going to read it. In 2017, two former employees said that a white male executive repeatedly called a black co-worker Carlton in reference to the character from the 90s TV show The Fresh Prince of

Bel Air. At least one instance, he jokingly told the call worker to do the Carlton forum. The employee said the black co-worker on multiple occasions told the white executive to stop calling him that name and that he was not going to dance for him. Super racist, one former employee said. Now, just on a human level, man, if somebody tells you to stop doing shit, stop. Like, this is what we teach our kids, bro. If somebody tells you to stop doing something, you stop.

Correct. That's not even racist. While it is racist, that's dehumanizing someone, bro. Yes. And this is the culture that we have, you talk about the Robert Saver's kids that I don't, listen, man, I don't, I don't know them. And I don't know them, right? And I'm not saying, I'm not saying anything disparaging about. him, but what I'm going to say is it's a cycle. We hear all this stuff in your organization and

then you hear an anecdote about a kid saying, my dad owns the team. That's, it's systematic. That's not, that's not something that you just get. That's learned behavior. That's learned privilege. That's learned right there. And then, you know, when you see systematically disrespect towards women, disrespect towards all these things, it's a systematic thing. And that's why, you know, I think Robert Sarver need to get up out the paint. If the NBA is talking about this, you know, we're trying to be more inclusive.

We're trying to do all these things. You got to do, you have to do something drastic here. And, you know, the NBA has a lot, this is another reminder, the NBA has a lot of work to do. You talk about what's happening right here

on this Phoenix Sun's, what's going on here, with the sexism, the racism and all these things. I look at another team. You saw the Dallas Mavericks, are going through, have gone through that in the past with, you know, sexual assault and things like that. And, you know, there's been a lot of criticism on the outcry of that. But, like, you got to figure out what you're going to do, MBA, because this is a totally different time.

You had the Black Lives Matter on the court. You had all these things about we're going to be inclusive and have better more quality. We are the liberal league, as, you know, we always hear, Roger. We are the league that, you know, we're forward thinking. We're all these things. No, fam, you got to, this is systematic. This is a. black eye on your league. What's up, it is. It is. All of what you said is true. And it's going to be fascinating because while we are that league and they want to tell you that they're that league, they're not made up like

of, from an ownership perspective, any kind of diverse group of people. That's one type of people from an ownership group, right? And so, while we're saying we're a league of all of this type of stuff because our members and the product that's on the floor

is largely and predominantly of color, like the ownership group isn't. And so it's going to be very interesting to see how they approach these type of allegations made towards Robert Sarver and what they decide to do with them. I'm not calling for anything. Like that's all got to be sorted out. Investigations are going to have to be done.

But I would imagine that owners, at least some of them, right, they're going to be some of them that are like, yo, he got to go. Some of the more progressive owners are going to be like, yo, we ain't with that shit, man. He got to go. That doesn't represent us. there are going to be others and they wouldn't probably not let you see them in broad daylight

but they're there that are going to be like we can't set precedent by by letting this type of And why can't we set president, Roger Bell? Why can't we do that? Why can't we set a president by kicking someone out for this? Why? Because you can't come looking under my rocks.

You know, like I, you can't come looking into my closet. You know, I can't have somebody from nine years ago come out and say that they heard me say this, that and the other and have it corroborated and now I'm, my head's on the chopping block. I can't do that. So, you know, that's going to be interesting

to see how they handle it. I just, and that's one of those things where, you know, you see the NFL, you see the NBA, you see all these leagues that are saying we're going to, you know, promote equality and promote all these things. It's like, honestly, man, this is one, it's systematic. And because it's systematic, you are going to have to, if you really bout it and we're going to try to get racism out of our league, out of the league, then go get racism out of your league.

Go, go. you have to you have to kick all these motherfuckers out if that's what you're going to do that's that's what it is and so it's that's the waters we have to that these leagues have to tread because like you said this ain't the only this ain't the only story this ain't the only owner to act like this we are we've heard stories all around I've heard stories you've heard stories this is this is somebody that finally got caught up because also let's be real we've heard stories about Robert Sarver throughout the years.

We know this. We've heard this around the league, around just him also being a terrible owner in general, just being first it was cheap, then it was another thing,

then it was this. And it's definitely affecting, you can't tell me this hasn't affected this season for the Sons. There was some anecdotes about last season about him berating players

and berating team staff members and shit like that. That's why you're not good, Robert Sarver. It's because of you. It's because of you. It's because, of you. And it's systematic, man. How does this, how does this affect the current team,

the current roster on the Phoenix Suns right now? You got Chris Paul, you got Devin Booker, you have a contender, you have a really good basketball team built by James Jones. What do you do now? What do you do now? Boy, they're not playing great. That's where it starts. They're not playing great basketball right now. You also add in the DeAndre Aiton, you know, contract extension that was already kind of hanging over the team. I'm not ready to say that this is an insurmountable hurdle, but man, it's close. It's close. And I'm not, I mean, again, the difference between a championship contending finals appearance

team and a second round exit in seven games is not as big as people would have you believe. It's fractional, you know? And so what I would say to that is any distractions that could have. affect that percentage chance are more than you need. And so they're just surmount. They're just accumulating on Phoenix now. And this is a big one. Like this is the DeAndre Aitin thing was an issue.

And we talked about how he was going to have to. That's a normal issue though, by and large, and from an internet. It is a normal issue. It's still something that could wind up being a distraction to a team. This one isn't a normal one, but it's massive. And people have to answer questions. and we go on there on a daily.

And I would imagine there's going to be more fallout and more people that aren't normally around your team in there, conducting interviews and doing what they need to do, due diligence-wise to figure out where Robert Starver stands as an owner in the league. And all of that, when you put it all in a pot, it's just really hard to play your best basketball or for the people around the basketball team to do their best job,

to give the basketball team the best chance to win. I don't imagine they're able to live up to expectations. this year. It seems like all of Phoenix Sun's teams that have been great have been great despite Robert Sarver, right? Everything that you've told me, it just seems like, you know, we've just, we've been good because we had our, our infrastructure, but that was kind of a way from Robert Sarver, right? We felt, look, again, I'm, I'm, I'm disappointed in this story. I am not surprised by this story. I am not here to tell you who Robert Sarver is as a, as a, as I'm man, I don't know him well enough.

I'm here to tell you my interactions with him, my wife's interactions with him, the way I was made the feel while I was there. But I don't know him like that. Can you dig what I'm saying? When I was there and we played, we were our own team. Like, we were, you know, a galvanized group of dudes, Mike T. Antony and company, like, to some degree when the Calangelo's were there, they were a part of that. And we felt like we ran independently of what was going on upstairs and in those executive offices, you know?

But all of that has to come together to make a championship product. You know what I'm saying? So, I mean, I guess it supports your statement that it's in spite of, but I ain't here to say that. I'm just here to say, like, these were my experiences. And I know for a fact when we were there, we didn't really, we felt like we were our own side of that of that business. Man, we handled our own business. We were accountable to Mike and staff. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I'm not in the building right now. I was not in the building. I'm just saying from now I was I looking at it. It seems like ownership and the front office is a bit more, they work a bit more together than when you were there. Because it seems like you guys were a sovereign state when the Calangelo's were there, right? Now it seems like there's a server's a bit more integrated into the day-to-day stuff, and they've still won in spite of that. I don't know. So with that being said, I just don't know how that's going to play out with this season because you're going to see Sarva on a regular day-to-day.

or you're going to see his influence on a day-to-day basis, bro. That's just what it is. He better stay his ass at home. No, real talk. You want to do the best by your team? Stay home, bro. Right now, right now during this, stay home. Yeah.

Like, you know, go sit up in your box. Don't be down in the locker. Like, sit up in your box, you know, it's your thing or sit on, you know. But don't be in the, it's maybe a terrible look, man. It would speak of if you weren't convinced that he was a, a, a, a, megalomaniac at this point. Like, if he brings his ass and he's all present in that locker room and still, you know, operating, then he's just put his stamp on that.

Like, stay out of the way right now. For Robert Sarver, and I think there's a key difference. There's one thing I always compare that I'm comparing this to is that's the Donald Sterling events that happened with the Clippers. But that had, that was on tape. And the difference between this one is Robert Sover, through his attorney denying most of this stuff. And these are all anecdotes that are reported by other. employees, sure, yes. And I mean, I'm going to be quite frank, I do believe these employees. They interviewed over 70 people for this story, Baxter Holmes did. What do you think this is going

to have ramifications if there isn't a smoking gun or a tape? Do you think that they're going to get them about the pain or are they going to just say, hey, we can't really prove this? Like, what do you think is next from an NBA perspective? It's going to be fascinating because as a league they're in a much different place as a country we're in a much different place as it pertains to you know social justice and and and inclusion and and um things of that nature and so like i said before it's just going to be fascinating my you know my gut says we're there's not there's not going to be much they can do about that it's funny because like i you know ever since it's like you know after george floyd and um everything that's come after

that I've constantly just been in denial of the fact that people could actually get fired for being racist. I don't think it's, I still don't think it's possible. Like, I'm always surprised when they, when they, if they get fired for they get, if they lose their team or something bad

happens for like racism, sexism, all this stuff, I'm still always surprised when it happens because it just it just, you know, up until a year and a half ago, it just didn't happen. So I'm in, of the mind with you. I don't think anything is going to happen until it happens. I don't know what happens with this.

Again, my gut says there's not much they can do. I know for a fact that other owners are going to immediately try to take the stance of this is a slippery slope. Like we cannot start taking teams away for something like this. So, you know, again, just going to be fascinating to see what the league does with it, whether they conduct an investigation, whether it's even proposed that he should, you know, like it's going to be interesting to watch. I'll just have to sit back and see how it plays out.

Yeah, man. It's, it's going to be a lot, dude. And it's so much to come out of this. This is one of those stories where this is just the initial story, man. There's going to be so much that comes out of this. So many ramifications, so many follow-up stories. And honestly, this is real journalism, man. You know, you just got to really tip your captain.

Like, yo, these employees were fucking fed up. They were like, fuck this shit. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to tell our stories. It takes a lot of fucking courage to do this. that. Shout out Earl Watson for fucking telling this story. Thank you, Roger, for telling your shit, man. It's, it takes a lot to fucking do that, man.

That's why it's systematic because people are fucking scared. No one should have to experience this shit in the workplace. You know, you go to work to provide for your family and to reach your dreams. And it's a

toxic work environment. You know, take all that stuff. It's a fucking toxic work environment. And I don't, I wouldn't want to work with the Phoenix Suns or I wouldn't want to work with that after seeing them shit like this. And I feel for all the people that I know in the Sun's organization that has to deal with today. Like I know some folks in the organization. It sucks. I feel awful for them too. And specifically one dude who I've known for a long time, that's James Jones, Joups, because this is your first gig, you know. This was your baby of a team.

not only has has that come up against a really, really difficult challenge, but now you're left as a black man in that workplace to some degree having to decide whether your career is more important

or if you've experienced anything like that and I can't say that James has because I don't walk in James's shoes. But if he has, standing up and saying it, it's an impossible situation. It's a really, really tough spot to be in. And so I don't envy it

and I feel bad. Yeah, man, I just hope everybody, I just hope that they spoke to 70 employees, man. Ain't nobody lying when you talk to 70 people. I'm sorry, dude. I'm sorry. And I know, and, you know, people are going to say, oh, for the fucking son, we knew this was a thing when the sons preemptively put out all those statements. You know, we knew it was a big deal when that happened. And you can't tell me that this isn't true when 70 people say that.

Say that you can't. Not 70 people aren't going to lie. right in unison they're not going to do it and especially from a journalism perspective i know yes the reason why the story didn't come out after it leaked that a story was like this was going to come out the reason why it didn't come out immediately is because there's all these legal ramifications they have to go through the legal team and make sure that this is good so that so their publication doesn't get sued they had to vet this so boom this is this is something that that is real and I just feel for everybody in that building, man.

I feel for those people who have to work in that environment, dude. And, you know, like, this is, it's not something where you can just go get another job, all right? This is, it's a fraternity. It's hard to fucking, to find people to do work like this because it's, it's just hard, man. This is a hard business to get into. People's dreams are at stake. And for you to fucking do this stuff, that's evil, man. I don't want to, I don't want to read the stuff about.

A pregnant son's employee, that shit, it's heartbreaking, bro. And to see, you know, the racism, this shit is heartbreaking, man. And just taking advantage of the fact of people's dreams, bro. Like, you should be happy to be here. Fuck that. I earn my way here. I earned my way into this building. You know, Bradgettelling Roger Bell, bro, who fucking went.

You know what the irony? You know what the irony is and all of that? Made to feel less than as someone who's worked their whole life to get where they're trying to go. And scrapped and clawed. and maybe came out of circumstances that a lot of people don't come up out of and succeed. And the one making you feel like that was handed banks by his debt. That's a wild shit. Yeah.

Made myself up out of nothing, not me personally, right? You understand what I'm saying? But someone who's risen in the ranks and just paid dues and scrapped and clawed and grinded and took shit and dealt with it and came back and took it the next day. And now they've achieved the level of success that, that they dreamt of their whole life, like made themselves up out of nothing is there and on their own hard work. And you're there because your daddy gave you a bank.

Straight up. And I think about Earl Watson, who's the catalyst of the story, bro. When are he going to get a coaching guy? You know, he's fucked up. It's obvious. It's obvious. Can we look, let me, I'm just going to do my little inner conspiracy theory thing right here, Logan, because it was interesting to me.

And this is where my mind went when I first saw this. and I realized Earl was kind of the centerpiece in it. You know, Earl was a young head coach in the league. You don't just get those jobs. Like you, someone's got to think really highly of you, right? And so whether or not you have the ultimate success, the first time you get the job or not, you know, isn't necessarily the point. The point is someone like that who gets fired because the team doesn't do well,

they typically wind up on someone else's staff in some capacity the next year, like, you know, learning more and refining their, their, their, their toolbox more and doing what they need to do to ultimately get back to that hood coaching job potentially one day. The fact that Earl didn't work again until 2021 raise some real red flags for me. Like I had to really like, you know, I don't know. Maybe Earl decided he didn't want to work for three more years. And then four years later said, oh, I want to work again. I don't know. But it, I have to wonder. That's when it goes systematic, bro, when you get blackball off a lead because somebody else was racist or somebody else did something and said that you were, you know, just

who spoke out. And this is why people don't speak out, ladies and gentlemen. This is why. This is why people don't speak out because they got to support their family and the only way they can do that is biting the bullet and going ahead.

And if they don't, they risk getting blackballed. That's why when you hear, oh, why didn't the victim speak out sooner? Why didn't they say it in the moment? That is fucking why. And so this is all, it's just disappointing.

It's frustrating. It was all the above. It's just, it's just, I don't know, I don't have, I don't know anymore to say. You have anything else to say on this? I don't, I don't know what else to say on this, bro. I can't. Hey, shout out. Hey, listen, Chris Paul and Devin Booker and DeAndre Aiton and all the Young Bucks, put your head down.

Keep your eyes on that prize. Go to work. It's the, it's the brotherhood. Just keep it in that locker room. You don't control any of that anyway. You very rarely get to be a part of a window of a window of a, opportunity you guys are in it. Yeah.

To whatever degree you cannot, to whatever degree you can avoid this being a distraction, do that. Like, that's what I would say, because this is a mess. And I had a real one of the week from last night, but I'm not even going to do that, man. I'm going to,

I'm going to give a real one of the week to the son's employees, bro, and all the motherfuckers that spoke out, I'm going to give that to them. And all the real ones of the week to do that, it was you, y'all some Gs, all of some Gs. The people who spoke out and who didn't spoke out and who went through this shit.

That's my real under the week. Can I just say this real quick? I'm going to do a real one now, but I'm going to hijack this for a second because I told you guys something and people were like, you hit me with the, and I asked you. Remember, I asked you about the Celtics and I asked you about whether or not. Yeah, this is where we're at. Yep. I asked you about whether or not, because this is what I watch.

When I watch these games, I'm like, man, there feels like a little bit of a power struggle between Jason Tato. He said, yo, he said, he's going to talk. about the subject today, buddy. I'm going to talk about that because I feel, I feel it when I'm watching games, right? I feel it when I'm watching games. Like, both of them are trying to get off to a degree that would suggest, like, there's not a clear understanding and there's some sort of like, I'll admit, I was late on this. I was late on this. I was late on this. So when you hear Marcus Smart come out and say what he said, which is, which is wild that it got to that point

in and of itself, that's the symptom. Like, the cause. of it, I think is that you have two really, really talented young players who are both vying for the Celtics being their team. And I think what you see, how that manifests itself in the games is what Marcus Smart

was talking about in the press conference. Yes. I just, this is how I saw it in the beginning. I was like, oh, damn, they're just, Jalen Brown's just taking that next step. Like, wow, this is cool. This is really cool. I didn't think about the ramifications of what it would with Jason Tatum and all

these things in the in the in the and marcus smart i didn't see that and this has been interesting because this is the second time this has happened during this kind of iteration of the celtics right we saw the first time with kairi and then we saw the uh the second time is right now we saw they wouldn't everybody's just trying to figure out their roles and i think this is just the thing of you got to trade one to the other man you just kind of have to i think at this point you just have they had a players only meeting which you know what is and they this is funny you You know when like, Raja, we know what motherfuckers is blatantly lying to us, right? We are both people that just do that.

They were trying to say, oh, no, it was a team dinner that we already had planned, but the guys just wanted extra time beforehand to speak things out before the coaches got there. What does that sound like, Raja Bell? What is that? What is that, Raja? By definition, it's a players meeting. Oh, okay, okay. All right.

I just want to get that out there. Right? Like you had players requesting to meet for extra time by themselves. That's a player's only meeting. Thank you, Roger. I think. Maybe you saw it defined. It's too early to be having players-only meetings.

If players-only meetings never work, dog, they just never do. Almost never do. That's good. Yes, they almost never work. I will just say, I don't know that you got to trade one of those dudes. You don't think so? I mean, you might have to at the end of the day. I don't know that you need to do it now because I don't think you're winning shit this year.

Do you know what I mean? I think you play that out and just maybe you ultimately do. You need to pick your side, bro. At some point, you need to pick a player. Because those two, as much as they're probably boys and they wouldn't say this, maybe they'd say it behind closed doors, I do think that both of them feel like they are that dude. And they're so young that, you know, LeBron and D. Wade and Chris Bosch can do that. They're at a point in their career where priorities are winning championships. Well, even then they had to have a talk.

But they did. And it didn't work out year one. It had to be year two. I think these dudes are still, you know, at a place where they're trying to carve out like, like, Brown wants to be the best player in the league. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Jason Player wants to be the, Jason Tatum wants to be the best player in the league. And I love both of those players for that reason.

I absolutely love both of those. But it reminds me a lot of the, a Bradley Bill and John Wall, you know, you know, outwardly like, oh, we're boys, we're good, we're good. But like, clearly if you watch the game, it's like there's a power struggle there. And Bradley Bill ultimately won that one.

And a lot of that, somebody has to do at least with John Warrant getting injured. But I see that. I think you're going to have to pick, though. I think at some point you're going to have to be like, no, him or me, and it ain't even no beef because I want my own team.

And Jalen's playing like a monster right now. Jalen is a, he's a boy right now. Yeah, a couple of years ago, I know nobody wanted to hear it, but I saw the look in his eye and the skill set. I was like, that's not going to be an easy choice because people have penciled Jason Tatum and I'm not taking anything away from Jason Tatum.

He's tough. But that kid, the other one, looked like he had way more to learn still, you know, Jason Tatum. And he's still growing too, but I could see that that boy was, he wasn't just going to be happy being like a defensive 3&D dude out there to supplement. You know, that's not what his. I covered Jalen Brown, his long. year at Cal.

Dude had just, he wasn't in like the best program because, you know, Cal basketball, you know, it is what it is. But he just had a look. It just had a look in his eyes. Like, I'm ready to kick all y'all motherfucking ass. Every single one of you. You, you too. You, you too.

I don't care. I love that. I love that in Jalen. And I love Jason Tatum too. Jason Tatum is so good as a basketball player. I do feel that. But you can't have those. I don't, I don't think.

you can have those two long term just because like, dog, they both want the same thing. And you can't, there's only one, there's only one role to be a number one. And there's only one role to be a number two. You've got to figure that out. So we'll see what happens with the Celtics, man. Well, that's something that we're all keeping an eye on in the real ones. But, um, Roger. Let me go, let me go real one, bro.

Because I got a 9% on my 8% now. Oh, oh, 8%. Um, real one of the week. I don't even think this is like, oh, no, I was going to go, listen, I was going to go, Odell Beckham Jr's dad. not because I agree with what he did. That's not what I'm saying. Hear me now.

It's not because I agree with what he did. But boy, that takes some, for lack of better way to put it, Moxy, when you go get up there and put a video montage together of your son being open and then openly talk shit about his quarterback. Like that is, that's some shame. Here's a thing, though. Parents talk shit about other teammates. It happens.

They talk shit about other teammates, the coach, the coach ain't shit. That happens more than you think. No, no, yes. Talking it and putting video. montage is out supporting it. Those are two completely different things. Also, creativity. Creativity there, too, with that video montage.

Yeah, no, that was just wild to me, but not going to give it to him. All right? I'm going to give it to the Atlanta Braves organization, first World Series since 1995, and specifically won Jorge Soler, okay? Who was absolutely getting it done, like World Series MVP. And the bomb that he hit out of, I don't know what Houston said. stadiums called at this point. Those like 460 some.

Like just like putting the exclamation point on it. It was a great World Series for him personally. And shout out to the Braves as real ones at a week for winning the World Series. There's been another edition of real ones. Real deep real ones here. Make sure check us out on Mondays and Thursdays. In the meantime, check out mismatch. Check out group chat.

Check out the answer. Check out Black Girl Songbook with Who, Rosabelle. Legend, Danielle Smith. Make sure you check out R2C2 with who, Roger Bell. The Crescent clown Vallejo legend. One C-C-Sabathia. We'll see you guys next week. Holla.