The Ringer NBA Show - All-NBA Picks (Also in Pencil) | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here to discuss what their All-NBA teams would look like (9:36). But first, they start with Justin’s UConn Huskies' victory at the national championship and their early thoughts on some of the top prospects from the game. Then, they pick their All-Defensive teams and All-Rookie teams (42:26). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Victoria Valencia Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have news shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us.

on the press box. And welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. And joining me as always, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. I have four words for you, gentlemen. The ball is tips.

And there you are. You're running for your life. Rob, you're a shooting star. Wow, you're bringing a very particular energy to this podcast. I mean, I know where it's coming from, but I don't know where it's coming from. A champions energy?

Yeah. You might say it was. Yeah, big, big championship night for the Yukon Huskies. Congrats to them. I actually watched the game start to finish. I actually rooted for Yukon, you know, because I'm a big East guy. Shout to Lou Karnaseka. Shout to Jim Calhoun, who started the run.

Just, you know, just incredible run. Six championships in 25 years in Stores, Connecticut is just insane. When you consider the 25 years that places like IU and, UCLA have had. So like, man, shouts to Yukon and all that they've achieved. Dan Hurley is a legend. His whole family is. And so, yeah, it's pretty cool to see, bro. A legend, Rob. Did you hear that?

I mean, this is news to me. How does it feel for you, though, as a blogging legend, Justin? Warming the fingers back up, getting back into it. How are you feeling? Let me tell you, I feel like I just played, what, four or five rounds in an NCAA tournament over the past couple days because when you do not write

for however many months I took off and then start doing it again. It is difficult. But I did it anyway because I was just inspired. The spirit moved me so I had to write something about the Yukon title run. Just the difference between back into the day, the Yukon team that I grew up with and what we have now,

which is completely different because as Waz probably knows, like, the Yukon teams that won before, man, it was just like... Powerhouses. Yeah. It was the hungry Huskies. It was Kembo winning every game in the Biggie's tournament. And then in the, in the

NCAA tournament, this was just an absolute steamroll situation. And honestly, Rob, like the Dan Hurley offense, kind of beautiful. I think you really actually like it. Yes. I should crush some film on these guys? No, you should. They run real stuff, like NBA level

stuff they're running with the talent that they have. And like discipline. These guys stuck to their guns. They didn't get out of character. There wasn't dudes breaking off plays to do one-on-one stuff because they didn't have quite frankly those kind of players anyway. I was impressed, man.

Stuff like, you know, after the first sort of timeout or whatever interview, they go to Dan Early and he's like, I like this pace. It's a two-point game and he's like, no, I like how this is going. We're going to wear these guys out. And that's essentially what they did. It was, I don't know, I was thoroughly impressed with somebody who'd watched maybe four minutes of Yukon basketball prior to the championship game. I like the pitch you guys are making.

My NBA elitism is slowly melting away. So maybe I'll have to take a good look at. at some, at least the, the retrospective tape, you know, to celebrate the championship. Let's go our role a little bit. Purdue took six threes, the whole game. Okay. So, what century are we in? We're still alive and well watching the detailed totality of the game.

I do think the college game, both for the women's and the men, is starting to mirror the NBA in, like, noticeable ways. There's just definitely a trickle-down effect there where the shooting and the movement is really starting to be a factor there. And actually, I have a question for you, Waz, since. you watch the game, I think the big question coming out of that is just some of the prospects that played in there. What do you think about Zach Eady from the little that you saw of him? He's got, he's huge, which, yeah, I guess that's not a crazy observation, but he's got good hands. He's got good feet. He's just not very quick. He's not very mobile laterally. But everything else, man, like, this guy catches every single thing. He's a lob threat.

I think he's an NBA player. If Bin-Smack-Biombo can play in the NBA at center, I don't see why Zach Edie can't be, you know, an eight, nine-year guy in the league. Kind of moves like Frankenstein, so that's tough. Although he is still developing. I think he's only played six years of basketball. He's one of those late comers. Got you.

On the one hand, so Yukon, Rob, basically bled him out where they kind of let him get his and then cut everybody else off. So they single covered him, which is tough to do. in college because aren't many large humans still left in college at this point. And so on the one hand, he's obviously going to have the shooting that he didn't have in that game. But on the other hand, I do think he's

going to be able to be single covered more. Hell yeah. And so I think he's probably going to get drafted higher than he should because this draft is presumably weak. That's what everyone's saying about it. I wonder, though, Rob, is there a place in the NBA now

for like an Al Jefferson off the bench type where you're almost like throwing a curve ball at the opponent, maybe like score 10 to 12 points all of a sudden they have to put their starters back in because they don't have the depth that center. Like is there a pathway for that type of guy you think? I think the pathway would be dependent on who your starters are. And are those guys comfortable with post spacing, with post entry,

like the mechanics of how to make a player like that work? That's where teams run into trouble. It's not that Biggs can't come into the league and have the skill set to put up 10, 12 points in a hurry. it's does it make sense within what the team runs? Because you don't want to build your whole offense around what one of your backups is going to come in to do for minimal minutes. So if it's a team that already has that infrastructure,

absolutely. And if it's a team that already has the spacing to accommodate it, why not? Like, why wouldn't you take a shot on a guy like that? So the difference to me between Edie and guys like Al, Jefferson and Enis Cantor, who I saw Rasillo bring up, is that when he's near the rim,

he's actually a deterrent. So, yeah, he might be a problem in space guarding against picking rolls, but, like, when he's there and dudes try to scorn him, it's going to be a problem, which I think is a completely different proposition for what an Enis cancer or Al Jefferson brought to the table where if somebody was at the cup against those guys, that's a bucket guarantee where I think Eady, man,

at least when he's there, is going to stop people. And he brings, you know, actual skill and nuance to his offense. And so I think he's an NBA guy for sure. I think if he's a starter, he's on the back half, like in the bottom 10 NBA starter at center. But there's no doubt in my mind that he's a bona fide NBA player. Well, this has been the Ringer NBA draft show. Thanks for listening. Appreciate you guys tuning in.

All experts in our field here. You don't want my Klingin takes? Please tell me who he is and how much I should know about him. So Donovan Klingin, aka Kling Kong. AKA my beautiful big dofess of a son. Okay. He's the complete opposite, where very much a clear path for him,

where he is a rim runner, rim protector, Jared Allen type, good hands, can't shoot, unfortunately. And so free throws are going to be a problem. I wonder if he'll ultimately be able to step out and hit a corner three, probably not. Somehow going to be a top five pick in this draft, it seems like. And now on the one hand,

I think there's a clear role for him. I think he could be good as Allen part two, if that's his ceiling, if that's his role model. That's a very good NBA player that a lot of teams would love to have. Ultimately, I think he's going to get derided, though, because people are going to be expecting him to be more than that, and I don't think he's that. That's honestly the problem with some of these scant draft classes sometimes,

is guys get put into the top 10 or put into the top five who are not quite that level of prospect, and then it's held against them for at least the first part of their careers. So I hope whoever gets drafted in this class highly, that maybe in another year wouldn't have been. We can judge them fairly based on the merits of how they actually play and not, oh, this is a number four pick. He should do X.

They said that about Kimba Walker, too. And look at him now. In Monaco, living his best life. Exactly. Had a few good years, though. All right. So as we were recording this, it sounds like Janus and Teddacumpo is okay. He had a pretty big scare last night with his calf.

So we're going to work under the assumption at this point that he might be out for a week and we'll see in the playoffs. So just an FYI to anybody listening to this. Janus, as of right now, the information that we know could be fine. So with that being said, we're going to do our all-MBA picks.

We're going to do all-rooky and maybe all defense toward the back end of the pod. Rob, you have a vote. Was and I do not. We're still waiting on those emails, checking the spam folders. You know, sometimes the filter catches it. You've got to be real careful with that stuff.

It's true. Anything you want to say about this, like maybe clarifying the 65 game rule, which has become increasingly naughty even since we recorded Sunday's podcast. Yeah, so a correction from Sunday, especially at the end of that pod when we were talking about all rookie,

there's a 65 game rule in place for all these individual awards and all of the teams, except for all rookie, notably no games played limit on all rookie, which makes the process a little more interesting, to be honest with you. Some of these guys who have come on

later in the season or maybe mistime with injury, I'm glad we can get them some time and space here. But also, just to be clear, rookies are oftentimes not playing because they stink. Yes. So it's not like the thing that they're like trying to not incentivize, which is like this nonsense rest of for big games,

that's not what's happening with rookies. They're just not being allowed to play. It's very true. And in this case, we're only measuring them against each other. So it's rookies who don't know how to guard at an NBA level yet against other rookies who don't know how to guard at an NBA level yet. So that's something to keep in mind as we go through All-Rookie a little later today,

but also that there's a 62 game allowance for players who have season-ending injuries. So if you have played at least 62 games, but your season has been cut short by a season-ending injury, what's officially deemed a season-ending injury, then you can still be voted for all NBA and all these individual awards.

It's quite a web we weave, Justin. I don't know how we got to this place. It's also crazy because it disincentivizes playing at the end of the season. So if I'm like, so for instance, Trey Young, which I don't know if you guys caught last night's game, also wearing a head covering, just going to point that out there,

is rumored to come back. To have gone to Istanbul? Well, we don't know about that. Maybe just the hair club for men. He is reportedly thinking about playing in the next day or two. Obviously, they have the play-in, which everyone forgets that they're going to be in a play-in game coming up next week.

so he's going to maybe come back but under these rules that probably means that he's less likely to be voted into something not that he's going to be all NBA yeah well he's way below the threshold anyway I'm just saying like let's say he was at 62 or like he was at 60 and he came back

all of a sudden or 62 whatever it is and came back then he wouldn't be in consideration I think the situation the league is trying to avoid is the case where somebody gets literally to 64 games and is looking for special exception. And so let's just write special exception into the mandates to begin with. If you're within this margin for error and your season ends early, we're going to grandfather you in to being able to get an award.

But the fact that we do have these lines, the fact that all of this factors into NBA contracts and how much these guys can make and what the structure of their deals are, it's just feeling increasingly arbitrary when we have multiple bright line marks for what is allowed and what is not and which rookies are allowed and which are not and which games played count and which games played don't. I'm a little lost at this point. The other new thing we have this year, positionless ballots, how are we feeling about those? Rob? I feel it fine. Did you guys have an issue with the positionlessness of this at all? I don't have an issue with it. I just like the positions better. Maybe I'm a traditionalist

that way. I think because I've watched it, I pay attention to enough of NFL discourse where, you know, a lot of people are complaining that, like, only quarterbacks can win the MVP and, like, the spirit of it's, like, what if a guy is a great season, we get it? Like, on just the pure value, you know, metric, it's hard to beat a quarterback, but other guys can be excellent,

so why shouldn't they be eligible for this award? I think there's some of that that may happen in the future, where, like, a lot of bigs who just aren't as high usage as the guards in the wings just won't stack. up, right? We're in a high use this big era, so we don't have that problem right now, but I could see that being the case where it's just all the

wings, all the guards, eating up all of these sort of awards, these first team, all-MBA, second team and stuff like that. And for all defense, you could see a world in which that's dominated by bigs. No wings make it, exactly.

That could definitely happen in the future. For what it's worth, I don't think that's what the field looks like this year. And some of that is guys like Joelle and draymond not being eligible when ordinarily they would be. I liked it that I wasn't filling buckets from the start. Like I kind of just did it stream of consciousness. I'd just put down 15 best players like move guys rise. Yeah, just viving it.

Unfortunately, I guess fortunately, like I ended up with a full lineup as per usual, where it's two guards, two forwards, and a center just by chance. So I don't know if that's just the way the league shook out. If I'm just like, I am so attuned to the way of all. NBA team should look or what. But here we are. We'll make our way, one way or the other. And honestly, like, with so many of these guys, they kind of are point guards sometimes.

They're creative wings. They're filling a variety of roles. I get why we would want a positionless ballot, especially for all NBA. It does turn it into a different exercise, though. It does turn it into something a little closer to what we do with the top 100 versus who are the best players within their positional buckets. Who are the best guards relative to other guards? It feels different in that way.

There's no doubt about it. Love that plug. Check it out. Ringer.com. New update today at the Ringer.com. Victor Webbenyama climbs and climbs and climbs. It's getting a little silly, but he's silly. Well, we'll get to him in a little bit here.

First team, though. I have Yokic, Luca, Shea, Janus, Tatum. Any disagreements? I'm a Jalen Brunson guy on the first team. There we go. I just think the weight that this guy has to shoulder as a burden, all of the injuries that the Knicks have sustained, the fact that the team, especially on offense,

just goes into the complete gutter when this guy doesn't play. I know that's like, oh, you're penalizing Jason Tatum for playing on a really good team. Yeah, I am. Jalen Brunton has to do a lot more. He just does. That's just by virtue of his circumstance. And to me, and it's not, like, overwhelming.

you know, I thought those guys were neck and neck. And if I'm being honest, I think on a per minute basis, I'd have Kauai Leonard here. But he just hasn't had the workload, the minutes load, the burden, the New York Knicks of it all, right? Where Kauai can just be basically anonymous. And essentially, Jalen Brunson is the mayor, the ambassador, the everything of the New York Knicks, man.

I factored that stuff in. And so to me, he deserves. He's earned one fifth place on the MVP ballot to me. And so therefore, the fifth guy on the first team all NBA. Yeah, it does feel that way. There's the top four guys. And then there's this open fifth spot. And I would say there's four candidates in addition to the three we've mentioned.

We got Tatum, we got Brunson, we've got Kwai Leonard. I would say Kevin Durant deserves the plug here too. And I think that's the field as far as filling out this fifth spot. And each of them has their own case. You know, Brunson, as you said was, the weight he carries offensively is such a big deal, especially for a team that now ranks third in the Eastern Conference. Like that's a remarkable thing he's been able to do for the next season. Terrible third seed, though.

I mean like the records to achieve this third is just, it's tough. But a three seed is a three seed, right? A three seed is a three seed. And he's dragging them there with one of the highest usage rates in the league. One might say that the East this year looks a lot like the West last year. I'm just going to say that. Would they? I would.

Yeah, that's pretty similar. The Kings were the two. That's a ridiculous take. The Kings were the. Two-seat last year. Ridiculous. You see how he scoffs at the truth? I would say that

I think the bucks are better than what the Kings were last year. I agree. When they're completely healthy. But like the magic who are in the mix for the three-seat, like I think they're freaking as good as the Kings last year. Who lost, by the way, in the first round,

guys, remember that. Grizzlies were the two. Kings were the three. Sorry, yeah. The Grizzlies also lost. Suns and disarray. Number four. I'm just saying. pretty similar. Last year's West was good.

I don't understand this argument. Okay, that's a whole other podcast. Yeah, we don't want to get sidetracked with that. But like, yeah, I just think Brunson has just been incredible, man. Rob, you have Tatum. I have Tatum in that spot. And I think ultimately what I'm circling around to is whoever you have in this fifth spot, the other three guys are probably on your second team, I would imagine.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have Tatum as well. Highest efficiency season of his young career. I think it gets lost as the Celtics just keep rattling off wins, except for last night before we recorded this, where they just got blitz by the bucks.

And again, I think, look, the Celtics are better when Tatum is on the floor. When he's off the floor, they've got something like a plus 10 net rating, which is insane. The other guys are pretty good. You know what I mean? And so, again, you don't want to ding a guy because he's on a fantastic team. But I think, you know, even if you say like Tatum is doing this thing on a permanent basis, I just think the workload is on another level.

Okay. I have Brunson on my second team. So I'll just rattle off my second team. Sure. I want to hear you guys this. I have Anthony Davis, Kauai Leonard, Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards. Wow. My second team is Tatum, Kauai, Halliburton.

Booker, KD. Okay. I have the same five as Justin except I have Steph instead of Anthony Edwards. Okay. Well, I think you need to take the floor here. Like I said, I think Halliburton, again, for the first two and a half months of the season,

played at an MVP level. Like, legitimately, they had something like a 128 or something crazy like that offensive rate. when he was on the floor. He just was on a ridiculous level. Look, it's been way worse since the injury, but I think the totality of his season, like, as good as Brunson or Tatum or those guys have been,

I don't think they were playing at the Shea and Luca levels the way Halliburton was before his injury, right? And Yolkich level, as far as impact on the team. And so Halliburton, to me, he's got to be on my second team. Devin Booker and Kevin Durant, I think it's so obvious that the team is, like, we say top heavy. Like, we're talking about Sidney-Sweeney levels here, guys. When we talk about how top heavy the sun's off. Jesus Christ.

And so, no, and all jokes aside, like, what they do to lift that team up, even to the degree that we find them to be a bit disappointing. Like, it's all them all the time. And Booker's efficiency is just insane to me. And of course, he's the one taking over the point guarding duties. I just think he just does so much that he has to be on that team. And then, like I said, Kauai Leonard on a permanent basis, man. Like, if he hadn't had to miss so much time, he'd be on my first team. Okay, let's take this piece by piece.

I want to talk about Tyrese Halliburton here because I've noticed something that's happening as we're getting into award voting season and people are talking about Tyrese and talking about his injury. it's all about, oh, here's the dip in his three-point shooting. Here's the dip in his scoring production. This is all what's been happening with him since that hamstring. Aren't we going to hold him accountable for that or ding him for that? Would all those conversations seem to conveniently omit is he is still leading the league and assists?

And even during that time where his scoring and shooting is down, the Pacers are the second best offense in the NBA, second only to the Celtics. Can I give you his numbers since the injury? 32 games, 16.5 points, 9.2. two assists, 3.7 rebounds, 45, 33, 87 shooting splits, 19 and 13 overall, the Pacers. So if that's the worst part of your season, that's pretty good. It's pretty good, but it is also at this point half of his season. He's played 66 games.

That's 32 of his games. I just think in other years, if you're a point guard who leads one of the most prolific offenses in the NBA, and you are also the assist leader, you're usually an all-NBA guy. And yet people are looking at Halliburton sideways as if he is an adjudic. deserving candidate here. And the offense is that way because of him. Like, and only him. They would not be having some crazy efficient offense otherwise. And his usage is right up there. I think he's second in the league in usage even still. I got to have this guy on my team. And maybe some of my bias is being at something like the in-season tournament where essentially

he was the best player I saw that weekend. You know, we're talking about LeBron. Janice, Dame Lillard, Anthony Davis. Halliburton was the best player overall that I watched that weekend. That's the level he was playing at. Again, this guy was playing at an MVP level, legitimately MVP level. And that was two and a half months. Like, come on, man, I can't ding the guy too much. I think he was clearly on a first team trajectory.

Look, the dip has mattered, and it's been obviously noticeable. But he's still my second team guy, man. So you have them on your third team then, Rob? I do. I don't have them on the ballot. Wow. Off the ballot. I'm very eager to see who your third team is, Justin.

But before we get there, I think we should thread the needle here between Aunt Edwards and Steph. Because I went through the same mental exercise. Those were kind of like my last two guys for second team trying to figure out who would deserve that last spot. Same, actually. For me, it's, I think Steph has a more comprehensive impact on the game right now. you don't just tweak your matchup when you play Steph, you tweak your whole defense. And that is a power and a gravity

that Ant is still trying to get to. And he still makes mistakes. And I think the fact that Steph is bringing that to the table while scoring as much as Anthony Edwards is, producing as much for his teammates as Anthony Edwards is, and also making lineups work even above and beyond what Ant does, that's a pretty strong case for me. I respect it.

I went back and forth between the two. obviously Steph has been incredible. I think at this point, I give the margin to team success. And on the one hand, you could say, well, the Timberwol's defense

is really what's driving their success this season. Gobert is obviously a huge part of that, but Edwards isn't taking anything off the table there. This isn't like a typical Derek Rose sort of MVP conversation. You know what I mean?

So like he's actually additive to all of that. And then, I mean, if you want to factor in defense, obviously Edwards is like years more impactful than Steph. And so for those reasons,

I gave Edwards the nod. but I could definitely see staff in this position. Yeah, I just think it was flirting with, like, pretty good efficiency. Ever since Carl Towns went down, like, his efficiency has taken a precipitous dip, which he would expect when you consider the surrounding talent. Like, Rudy, obviously, has his limitations on offense. We've talked about that a lot up here. Jaden McDaniels, like, he's, like, mainly a spot-up.

guy. He's not really creating or setting up Anthony Edwards. He's doing this on his own. I just think Steph and KD and Booker, like these guys in Kauai, like they're just so much more efficient on offense than Aunt Edwards is. And I get the context has sort of, you know, ruined some of Aunt Edwards's efficiency. I just don't think he's of that level to get to my second team, but he's on his way. Maybe next year, kid. And that context is not so dissimilar from what guys like Steph have to deal with on a nightly basis. In terms of the level of creation they have to shoulder is probably more similar to the current version of the wolves than the cat version of the wolves. Some of these other guys, we mentioned just to clean up a little bit.

Kauai basically 50, 40, 90 isn't playing right now, but it has 68 games, just an efficiency monster. It looks throughout this season pretty much like the Kauai of old, the MVP type of candidate. Anthony Davis, if you watched the Warriors game last night, that's why. Anthony Davis is on this second team because they are absolute dog shit without them. The Warriors scored 134 points. I believe they broke a record in terms of

three point percentage, 63%, with over 40 attempts. And then Kevin Durant, I think very clearly. Same kind of cases, Kwai. Booker is the guy we haven't really mentioned who you had, Waz, on this team. As we go into our third teams here, I actually don't have Booker

on an all-N-B a team. Do you have him, Justin? I do. But he was like one of my last two spots, which we could talk about, I guess, later when we talk about all the other guys. And why don't you have Booker, Rob? I think for me, when you get down to this third team, and that's kind of where he was a candidate for me,

and you're trying to split the difference between these very good players. Maybe this is unfair for me to hold against Devin Booker, but when I think about the wobbliness of the suns in fourth quarters in big moments, the orchestration of their offense against tough defense, that's where I see Booker's limitations as a lead playmaker, and that's the role he's being asked to play on this team,

fair or not. And so when I think about what holds back the Phoenix Suns, some of it is that Devin Booker cannot do the job that they hoped he would be able to do. And he's been awesome. He's been an incredible score. He's absolutely deserving of consideration here. And we're really just like going through this with a fine-toothed comb.

And he just barely missed my third team. Booker's the guy where you don't want to reward the sons with two guys on these teams because the bar for getting two guys on the ballot is very, very high. I mean, we'll talk about LeBron James. But they only have two guys. It's the thing. They have two guys. And I was filling this out, I should mention, when they got absolutely blitz in the first

quarter by the Clippers last night where they scored like, what was his six points, they came back in that game. But, like, just on paper, it's just like, holy shit, he's actually having one of his best seasons of his career. He's been awesome, yeah. He just makes it over the 65 games, Mark, this past game, that Clippers game. But most efficient scoring season of his career is 27. and five basically.

Like any other year, he might be second or first team. Definitely could be. Yeah, I get it. And wait, so I just so y'all know, my second team is Tatum, Kauai, Halliburton, Book, Durant. Okay. Yeah. My third team is LeBron, Anthony Edwards, Steph Curry, Paul George, and Rudy Gobert. Rudy's on my third team.

I love it. team. I love it was. Rob is engorged. I feel like he got Rob for his All-Star slot when they gave it to Carl Anthony Towns, to be honest. And the defense is just so freaking dominant. And the team is elite in the context of this NBA season, not in the context of NBA teams

that we've seen in our lives, but like in our lifetimes. But in the context of this NBA season, they're one of the four best teams in the NBA. and it's because they're killing people on defense and it's because of Rudy Gobert he's my last All-MBA pick, 13. You fucking love to see it. Rudy was one of the tough omissions for me. As far as guys, we've talked about so far,

my third team, I've got Aunt Edwards, I've got Tyrese Halliburton here. I do have LeBron also. I do have Paul George also. I have Jalen Brown as that last spot for All-MBA. Okay. I have Steph. I have LeBron.

I have Booker. I have Jalen Brown. and I have Victor Webbenyama. There it is. We were talking about this a little bit in our Top 100 meeting the other day, Justin, but if you were the opinion that Victor Webenyama is the defensive player of the year,

he better be on your all-NBA team. Can I give you some stats? That's the line. So he currently has the fourth highest block percentage in NBA history. The top three are by Mnupol. And so you could probably deride him and be like, oh, the gangly boys

just getting out there. blocking shots by just like falling into guys. Not the case, unfortunately. I think he has a lot of other impact on defense. But on the other end of that, he's also one of five, 20, 10 guys in the entire NBA. Here's the list. Yokic, Janus, AD, and Bede.

And Wemby. That would be bad. And I know that's like a kind of arbitrary endpoint at this point. It's more of like an old school when you get to 2010. that's like a certain barrier you have to reach. But here is the thing that I did ultimately. I said to myself, would every team, if you swapped Wembe for this guy,

would that team be better? And I always came up Wembe. I think the one that I actually kind of balked at a little bit was Halliburton. And I think that's more just because of the way the Pacers are set up. And honestly, if Turner played with Wembe, I almost wonder if they'd hold teams to 76 points a game.

You think the Sons would be better off with Wembe than Devin Booker? I think so. Yeah. I don't know about that. Wemby and KD on one team? I'd love to see it, but no. It's like a nice weird thing to look at,

but somebody's got to handle the rock. That's what Bradley Beale's, why is Bradley Beal making $40 million a year for it not to handle the ball? To be the most overrated, overpaid player in the NBA. That's what he's. Grace and Allen initiating,

run like a day in early offense where they're just moving the ball. Listen, he's one of the best defenders in the NBA. Yes. And he has almost the Halliburton effect where it's like, yeah, he didn't have a good start to the season. But his second half of the season, he's been one of the best five to ten players in a new year. On both sides. Just so we could just calm, barrier down.

Let's please. A little bit. Do we have an ice bucket on hand in the studio? Can someone just pour something on justice? I think on a possession-by-possession impact bases, I don't think he's like killing people defensively, as far as the top defenders. I don't think on a possession-by-possession basis, he's like, leaps and bound better than Rudy or Bam, or even Chet, to be honest. I think on the highlight package, yes, he has the most eye-popping defensive highlights.

But possession by possession, I don't think it's borne out that he's somehow, you know, he's like another part of the chart than these other guys. I think that's a little bit overstated. And then on offense, his turnover problems dragged down his efficiency. It's just a fact. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here. He's still a rookie. But let's be real here.

Guys, let's just chill with the, you know, superlatives. But I admire your gumption. It's really cute what you tried to do there. I mean, you stack them up with everybody else in this list. He's a peer. I think a lot of people are going to hold it against him because he's a rookie. I think if he was a second-year player, if we just did the blind Pepsi Challenge Tase test,

I think everyone would put him in. So for me, the person that was closest was AD, him and Rudy. like that's who I like kind of flip-flopped on. Did you not have AD? Yeah, I didn't even realize you left him up. He's not on my ballot. He was my last, he was the last man left off. That's tough.

And that's because, and, you know, it's between him, him, Paul George, and Rudy were the three guys fighting for the two spots for me. I think Paul George, yo, even at a, I think he's kind of slight, he's not slightly, he's like a diminished version of himself. He can't quite turn the corner on guys and get by them the way to be used to. to, and even still, he is so important to what the clippers do offensively. He's still probably their best defensive player. You know, he's shooting like nine threes per 36, shooting that at like 40%.

Like, he's still pretty damn good on offense in a ways that like AD just doesn't take on that burden offensively. He's, you know, he's a finisher where Paul George is on the ball having to create so much. And obviously, AD is who he is on defense. I just think it's really close. Wanted to reward Rudy for anchoring the best defense in the league, one of the best teams in the league. You know, Lakers are fighting for a goddamn playing for Pete's sake.

Yeah, AD was my last man out, honestly. Yeah, I think the George case, no matter who you're comparing him to, AD or Gobert or DeMontas de Bonus, who we haven't mentioned yet, and I'm sure we'll get a lot of votes. Not even worth of consideration. No, he's not. If anything, Deerra Fox would be in my consideration more so, this a bonus would be.

But George's argument relative to all those guys is not only is he good in all the ways you mentioned was, but he's so adaptive. He can be the on-ball guy. He can also be the shooter flying around screens. And the fact that he has that and an all-defense case, that's an all-n-eba-level player to me. So I found myself toggling between Brown and George as wanting to reward that second star. Were you the same, Rob? I mean, I ended up with both of them. Oh, you did?

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So I went Brown, if only. because I think this is the best brown we've gotten. He's been awesome this year. The numbers are a little bit more diminished. The efficiency is up. Also, all defense case.

I mean, I had to stop myself from putting him on there. I'm a little bit cooler on Paul George's defense. I actually think when you look at the numbers, I think Kauai has a bigger defensive effect. And also, I will say in Paul George's defense, the numbers with PG, no Kauai, are better than Kauai, no PG. So, like, clearly there's something there, but I ultimately, I think,

tip the cap to Brown, if only because the Celtics have just been incredible this regular season and it's a regular season award. No argument there. So it's a shame we couldn't get Derek White

in this conversation. We'll come up later. Other guys on my long list, I had Halliburton, Sabonis, George, Bam out of bio, and then it gets into the longer, longer list,

Lillard, Zion, Fox, Butler, Drozen. Am I missing anyone? Tyrese on the long, long list? That's a lot. Long.

The long boy. Yeah. I think he's going to get some votes. I think he's going to get some love. To me, he's a little further away. Even just the smell test of is Tyrese maxi on the level of some of these guys making third team? To me, he is not. But I respect the season he's had.

He's done an amazing job. Who's your last cut, Rob? I think it's Booker. Yeah. I had Halliburne. Booker for me or maybe Sabonis. I think I respect Sabonis as a regular season performer. Certainly maybe a little more than Was does.

He does a lot for his team. But again, some of these guys are just out and out better players than DeMonda Sabonis is. And that's tough competition. You didn't have Sabonis on your long list. He's just not in the conversation with the Rudy. He's just not with the Rudy's, with the A.Ds, with the Bucers, with the Halliburton's. Like the guys that we mentioned, like being candidates to be left off, he's not in that class of player.

I get a record for double doubles. He kicked AD's ass, blah, blah, blah. Guys. No person with a brain, and they play the same position, would ever be like, I'd rather demontist a bonus than AD tomorrow to win a game for my life. Stop it. He's not in a conversation with those guys. Great season for him, though.

He also, for what it's worth, Justin, I mean, missed the threshold you were talking about, that 2010 threshold by a fraction of a point. So he is spiritually there, if not actually there. 19.5 points, 13.8 rebounds, 8.3 assists. Broke the double record. He's a good player. myself starting the exercise with him in, and then I came upon four to five guys who I could not leave off in his favor. Like, it's like, how do I leave off Booker and Brown and LeBron, for instance? And so

it's just, it's really tough to get this. All right. All right. I feel bad about not having Halliburton. I just, maybe a recency bias, but it's hard to shake the image of the player I've seen for now, what, since the new year, basically? He's just, like he's good and he had an incredible start to the season. It's just like he's been, he's been a pretty diminished version. He's rushed back because of the 65 game thing too, you know, which probably had some effects on sapping his efficiency. Totally.

I just, man, I don't know that. The dude that I watched, man, just torching people at will, you know, essentially being like, oh, you guys think I'm not going to try to score? All right, now it's time to score. While orchestrating everything, while being the, like, the emotional fulcrum of what the paces do as well, you know, mocking game Lillard with the time thing. Like, I don't know, man. Like, he's just left an indelible mark and the number is so backed that up.

Yeah, to me, I got to give him his props for that. I think he's still there. But just to clarify, Justin, Halliburton since February, not good enough for you. Victor Webbenyama before February. You're all good with all of that. It's a learning process. All right. All right.

I think Wembe now is better than Halliburton then. I know Halliburton was incredible. That's insane. The play in tournament was fun. No. Wemby plays both ways. That is another big part of this. Halliburton is one of the worst offenders in the NBA.

Like, come on. Justin's Bobby. I don't think this is that absurd. If you're wondering how Victor Webbenyama ended up at number 16 in the ringer's top 100, I think you're getting a sense of why. Okay, if we're feeling back the curtain, everybody had him in the top 20 except for Rob. I had him just outside.

I think that's fair for sure. So when Minyama is playing in an MVP level right now? Oh my God, yeah. He's on your MVP palette right now? No, no, I'm saying right now. Like right now? But it's April. Like, I get that.

It's March and April. So if you want to diminish the place. So when he shows up into every single game is a top five NBA player, is what you're saying? Like, from now until the end of the season? I'd have to do the math. Probably not top five, maybe like top ten. Oh my God.

I don't think Halliburton was an MVP player earlier in the season. Okay. Like, I'm glad that he was Steve Nash for like two to three months. But like the defense was garbage. Well. Twice? That's right. I think Kobe had a case one of those.

years, but I don't know, we need to relitigate that one. Oh, my God. The white liberal media just giving Steve Nash a little edge there. Not enough toxicity in the MVP race this year. We got to bring it back. We got to drudge it back up. I'm going to reverse Perkins'ness for us. My Lord.

Yeah. I feel bad, but no. No, no, Albury. Bet the NBA with a no sweat, same game parlay from Fandle every Thursday with TNT Thursdays. It doesn't matter if you're new to Fandul or already have an account. You'll get bonus bets back if your same game parley doesn't win on any NBA on TNT game. NBA same game parles are the perfect way to combine your bets for a chance to score a bigger payday. So we are looking at the NBA slate for Wednesday night. And I like the Orlando

Magic minus one and a half at Milwaukee. Yannis seems like the injury he's sustained the other night isn't as bad as it seemed, but I would be shocked if he suits up in this one. So give me the magic. You know, there's still playoff seating on the line there. So I like what the magic are doing. However, you want to play. Just head to fanduel.com slash ringer MBA to bet the NBA with the no sweat, same game parlay with TNT Thursdays.

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max refund $5, unless otherwise specified, restrictions apply. See terms as sportsbook.fandul.com. All right. Should we do all defense? Yeah, please. Who wants to go? Rob, you want to go? I think it's another case where there's a very clear top four,

at least to me. And it's Rudy Gobert, Anthony Davis, BAM, and Victor. I think those guys are first team, especially in a positionless ballot, like four centers, let's do it. Fifth is where it gets interesting for me,

and I brought it down to two perimeter guys. I went Jalen Suggs for the last first team spot. Okay, I had that same ballot except Hurd Jones. What are you feeling, Waz? I got Rudy, Bam, Victor, Chet. Chet over AD. Chet over AD, yeah, Chet over 80.

And because, like I said, I don't want to do this a quarterback MVP thing. Jalen Suggs is my last guy because Jalen Sugs. I've been kind of on the freaking Jailen Sugs train since his rookie year. And so, yeah, I want to reward him with the first team. I definitely. This is a night train? No, no, no, no, no, no. I actually think he's on to something here.

I remember. I was. I was just like he needs to make a shot. But I'm like, yo, like this is like the Cal Lowry. sort of prototype at point guard. Like, I've been saying this for a while. Okay. And it's finally, you know, like the magic's defense this year

with this guy is the sort of head of the snake and all of these, you know, ranger guys on the wings and then guys like Isaac coming in. Like, he is the point of attack, man. And I don't want to just put five big men on the freaking list, so I did four. And Jalen sucks. We all have to draw the line somewhere.

We do. Man's got to have a code. It's a matter of principle, I think. Yeah. Rob, what's your second team look like? So the other of the Suggs and Herb Jones is the other guy I was deciding between as you had first team. I have him as my first second team guy.

Then Alex Caruso, Derek White, Kauai Leonard, Brooke Lopez. So I have Suggs, White, Caruso, Jared Allen, Jada McDaniels. A.D., Caruso, Aaron Gordon. Hartenstein and Herb Jones I dig it I could name like 10 to 15 more guys It's really tough Zubag is somebody I think deserves some mention here

Drew Holiday Lopez Deserves some mention because that defense is fucking Swiss cheese But for Brooke Lopez Yeah there's a lot of good candidates here Jalen Brown

OJ on Anobie if he wasn't hurt he would be first team if he was healthy it's just didn't have enough games If we were still doing by positions I think Shay could get a sniff you know there's just a lot of guys man One of the points I was trying to divide

and find some space between was Jaden McDaniels and Kauai Leonard And for me I think McDaniels has not been as uniformly excellent this season as even he was last year He's had more kind of uncharacteristic moments where plays just get away from him a little bit in ways that would concern me for an all NBA level defender. So he didn't make all defense last season, if I remember correctly, when he should have.

And I do think he is going to make it this season. But for me, he's on the outside looking in. It's like the Oscars. We make up the next year. We certainly do. We're going to give it to him in year 15. Like he's Martin Scorsese. I think Kauai, I give him.

the edge over Jada McDaniels because Kauai, even if he's, he's clearly not the 2014 dude from San Antonio, who LeBron was doing triple takes when he's checking back into games in the finals game, right? However, the mind is still there. The instincts are still there. The hands are still ridiculous. Like, he's still so highly impactful when he puts his mind to it. So I give Kauai that slight answer short.

And I would say some of that fear. is still there. People are still really intimidated by his defense in a way that has an effect on the game. And he kind of transcends assignment too, where it's not just about who do you sit Kauai on, but he'll muck things up well outside of his zone. Yeah. I think it would make Daniels more as like a nod to the wolves's overall success. It's hard to split up the praise pie there. And it would be nice to get two of those guys on the ballot. But yeah, obviously Kauai, drew, any of those guys would have been fine. Can I talk about one positional thing as it relates to all defense.

We mentioned that there's a world in which in future seasons, this is very center dominant, very big man dominant. And when you think about who are the players who have the most defensive impact, see, I wonder, I think it'll depend on voter philosophy a little bit, because I found myself as we do this exercise, thinking about, you know, someone like Derek White, for example, is just much more valuable relative to the replacement level of their position than Nick Claxton. even though I'm sure there's lots of numbers out there that would tell you, Nick Claxton is a great

game-changing defensive player. But relative to how many centers are better than him, is he really? Is that a player that's worthy of all defense consideration versus the best guard or the best wing? Yeah, but wrong. It's terms of defensive impact, don't you know? That's the biggest defensive impact are big guys,

and so we've got to just go big guys. That's what the metrics say. I feel like I'm being parroted back to me. No. I'm just telling you like, that's what this shit is going to turn to, because that's what we turn everything into now, is this quantitative analysis of a freaking art and a sport. And so you're going to have, I bet you, we're going to get to a point in a few years where it's just 10 bigs.

What we should do is just trust Waz's opinion no matter what. Facts? Do not push back on it. Do not come up with facts for it. Facts. No, I mean, the defensive numbers are kind of. Horshit. Let's be honest.

Oh, they're always very fuzzy. The individual ones, too. I use them more as like a guidepost than anything, but like even on the ringer we wrote last year about how just like misleading they can be, especially on the individual level. I think what's going to happen, if we're being honest, is like Zach Lowe and all these other national writers are going to come out with all the defensive players and we're going to see guys just follow the lead there.

That's not enough. That's us. We're the taste makers. Right. Well, when you see Jared Allen and Kweiler, Leonard show up on that second team. Thank you was. Make it Brooke Lopez.

You know, let's all do respect to Jared Allen, good season. But Brooks, that guy. All right. Do we have to talk about all rookie? Wait, we're actually going to pick in, yeah, I guess I could put five together. Well, you got to put ten together is the problem. Thanks for making a special exception. Whatever, Rob.

Put a five together. We're not doing a second team, are we? I think we got to do second team. I have one. Actually, I think the second team's kind of interesting because there are

a lot of decent rookies. This is where it gets goofy because there isn't the same kind of limitation. And some of these guys have only played like a thousand minutes

and yet they're going to be eligible for second team. Yeah. As we talked about on Sunday, the top three feels pretty rock solid. Victor, Chet, Brandon Miller,

those guys are first teamers, no doubt. Jaime Hawkes is probably worthy of inclusion even though he's had some dips in his season. For me, Case and Wallace is a first team guy.

Wow. It might seem insane. to put a guy averaging like seven points a game, first team all rookie, but Case and Wallace, guards like an absolute demon, he does not make any mistakes. Be still my heart.

That is my kind of player. So similar logic for me, I have Brandon and Przemsky. Yeah. 3.7 plus minus. Yeah. Positive impact as a rookie, which as we talked about last week.

Very hard to do. Yeah, we don't know what this week did. We're just talking about good young guys. I have him... This is where our philosophies come out. Like, you're all about this. the backdoor cut, you know, you're being a team player out here.

I'm slapping the floor trying to get into people. We're really, I think, exposing our souls with our fifth place, all rookie selections. That's right. I had him as a slight hair above Keante George, who I think long term will be the better prospect. Keontay George. All of a sudden. Wow. We got David Thorpe over here with his rookie rankings.

No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying, I read, I read what's the scuttle butt out there. And, like, there was a point where this guy was breaking records for being the most detrimental NBA player in the history of life because of the minutes load that they were giving him while he was absolutely stinking it up. Yeah. And so. Well, not to Folthorpe this, but that's the Royal Jelly, my guy. You got to get those developmental reps. Get gal mechle over here.

Oh, man, rest of peace, true. For sure. The ESPN version anyway. Shout to Henry and them. They still kicking ass. Okay. Do you want to do your first team all rookie? Obviously, I got the big three, Jaime Hakez, and Amen Thompson.

I'm in Tompson. I just like what he's doing. Obviously, defensively. Of course, they had to sort of twist themselves into pretzels to find a lineup configuration that actually makes sense for his, you know, his skill set, which, you know, it's a lot of his like Jabari at the five now or technically, teams are now guarding Amen Thompson with their five, so he's the five.

But, you know, he makes my team and him and Hami Hakez. Okay. I didn't have him on my ballot. I actually think he's the less accomplished Thompson. Yeah, I went Asar for second team, but not Amman. If he had played more and had more of an opportunity to shine, I think maybe so. But Asar was, I think the minutes held him back, but by play was probably all defense, at least in consideration for all defense.

Well, he played 63 games, and then he got a season-ending injury. So he would actually be qualifying for all. I don't mean technically qualified. I mean the fact that he played like 1,400 minutes on the season or whatever. Who else do you have on your second? So Pajemski's got to be there. Trace Jackson Davis, I think has to be there. And if he had played more, I think he'd be first team.

It's just a matter of coming on a little later and not getting his opportunity. Derek Lively for me is on there and Kianti George, along with Asar. Okay. I didn't have Trace Jackson Davis. I had Tiante George. I have Kason Wallace. I have Lively who played 55 games, which I guess makes him eligible for this. I have Kim. This and only this. I have Kim Whitmore, uh, 44 games, but the scoring is actually per minute is actually pretty good. And I have Duop Reith. Because let's fucking go. I knew Waphrieh to get on here. I knew it. Uh, Trace Jackson, Jason Davis, Jackson Davis, excuse me. Uh, Pajamski. Casin Wallace, Assar Thompson, and Derek Lively. That's my second team. Okay. My long list?

The don't know. It's to Tumani Kamara. I had him on my long list. I really wanted to make room for Tumani Kamara. One of the best defensive rookies of this class just wasn't quite room for him here. Well, I had him on, I think, when I realized, when I thought that you

had to hit 65 or 63 plus two or whatever the hell that bullshit math. He definitely would have made it under those circumstances. Because I think both the Thompson's would have been out, probably. Yes. Cam Whitmore, no, lively, know. Gigi Jackson deserves consideration here. Balculabale. Also. We just naming rookies at this point.

That's what we do on this podcast. Sir Thompson, Tamankema, Meechich. Can I get a Meechich? Hell yeah, you can. About Yovitch. No Yovic? No Yovic. Not a rookie. Not a rookie. Not eligible because he literally is not what the award is about. Also, I would not be surprised.

if Scoot Henderson shows up on the second team just because by like by averages, he will probably be there. He's been god awful. He's been bad. I actually think like there's some stuff there. And it's been made worse by the fact that Brandon Miller looking like,

who, Lord of mercy. But if you put suit on your team over Amman Thompson and ASR Thompson, I think it tells us what you're looking at. And it's literal box score production and that's kind of it. Totally. Although I will...

NBA media. I will say if you look at the plus minus, Miller isn't that much better than Scoot. Like, Scoot has had the awful single game plus minuses, but like, they're both playing on shit teams.

Miller has been better, obviously, but like some of the numbers getting thrown around. If you have anything near 2020 vision, Brandon Miller is not on the same planet as this kid. It's not about the plus minus with those guys, or really with any of these rookies.

I think you want to reward certain rookies who benefit, winning teams. Like if they can find a way to contribute to winners, that's something. But I don't hold it against any of these guys for not contributing to bad teams. It's more that Scoot just has not been a good player this year. He himself is bad. I just want to say that

because it gets thrown around that he's like minus 50, whatever in a certain game. This is like degrees of awful. They have both been. Scoot He said they play on awful teams, which is why they lose by so much. The minus 50 is not because Scoot Henderson was like. That's part of the Blazers stop losing games by 60 points

challenge. Have I told you my updated scoot take after witnessing for one game? Why don't we soft launch it here? What's your updated take? We're like an hour into this podcast. No one's listening to this. So I think the problem with just the analysis is I think a lot of people saw him. And he looks like a Von Erick brother because he's just built.

And so I think people automatically assume Russell Westbrook. And I thought that as well. But if anything, the thing I was startled by the most is he seems like an under the rim sort of guy, whereas Russ, obviously, above the rim guy. And so I think actually his path isn't Ross. I think it's actually Kimball Walker, which means, because I remember Charlotte Campbell Walker, Bob Katz, Kemble Walker, getting his ass blocked a hundred times a game at the rim. And it took him a while to learn how to shoot. And so Scoot, obviously, is going to have to become not only a good shooter, but probably a great shooter. So he would have to learn how to shoot to match the trajectory of one of the.

the great step-back shooters and at least college basketball history? The skill level gap is insane. In terms of handle and jump shooting, Scoot is like so far from that right now. What you're describing to me is not Russell Westbrook or Kemba Walker. It's like Eric Bledsoe.

I think he has more upside than that. The one thing he has in his case is I think he's a hard worker and Kemba was the same way. If you looked at every step of the way, now we're getting way too deep cut. gone here, but every step of Kemba's life, high school, college, pros. Vast improvements. Yes. He was actually pretty mediocre to okay and then steadily got better.

And I think by year three in each case, he got really good. Kemba was being used as like a pit bull. He was a six man. Yeah, like guard the ball, chase guys around kind of guy. Like they barely let him dribble to rock. And by the time he left there, he was just, you know, ball on a string kind of guy. and then he figured it out in the league too. But yeah,

I shot 31% from three as a rookie. Obviously, Rob is right. The step back was there, but he was just not a good shooter until, Jesus, you're six, five, six? It took him time to settle in against NBA length for sure. And Scoot, like all of these comps were throwing around. I think he is going to be a good player.

I think his road is a little longer in terms of figuring out how to get to his spots, how to finish effectively, and how to make the reads out of that pressure within an offense that actually has the space to make that work. So I'm not down on him long term. I just don't think he was very good now. Yes, 100%.

I will have moved to Portland and then moved away by the time that Scoo Henderson actually plays good. It's very possible. But if he becomes Kimball Walker, I mean, everything will become in full circle for you. That's all that matters.

I look forward to your book. It will be my one shining moment. All right. Let's wrap it. We'll be back on Sunday for the conclusion of the 2023, 2024 NBA season. We'll get you ready for the play in tournament and for the playoffs thereafter. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely.

Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll be back on Sunday. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fanduel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit fanduel.com slash RG in Colorado. Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont.

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