The Ringer NBA Show - Amin Elhassan on His Phoenix Suns Days, Shaq Locker Room Stories, and More | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

Amin Elhassan of Meadowlark Media joins Logan and Raja to talk about his days working in the Phoenix Suns’ front office (1:00), how the team fell from grace (16:30), Shaq locker room stories (35:00), and more. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Amin Elhassan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's Popvin Ruins? Logan Murdoch here with Raja Bell. Roger, man, I think we had a podcast for the ages, bro. I think this is one of our best, man. Really? We've had some, we've had some decent pods, at least in my opinion. I think it's one of our best guests. We have Amin El-Hasson. He was dope.

A mean, was dope. Storytime with Amin-Elhassen. Storytime with Amin-A-Hasson. We literally just talked about the Sons. And we went just like 20 minutes on Shack stories. It was great. It was great. So tap in.

We're good. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell. I don't even want to call this a special guest because he ain't really that special, but who we got on the pod today, Roger. Yeah, this is, this was actually, like, real talk. I don't know if you could, like, cross over from players to front offices,

but, like, Amin was kind of like my rook. This is Amina Hassan. Like, he was, like, a young pup in the Phoenix organization. I was a grizzled vet. So I'm going to claim it. My rook, Amin El Hassan in the bill. What's popping amine? How you doing, Brody? I'm good, man. And Roger ain't lying, man. That was my vet, man.

Everything from looking out for me and like getting me stuff and make sure my gear was good to hazing me at training camp and making me stand up. Sounds like a good place to start. Sounds like a great place to start. So he haze you. What's going on? Yeah. So at training camp, you know, you go. and you have that first big night you have a big dinner. The whole team is there and the staff is there. And typically, like, they make the rookies get up and sing. And you got to do, they make them do shots.

And then you make them do ridiculous things. They got to run around the restaurant. All right. We made, Atlanta Tucker just literally prance around this restaurant that's full of other people who are just there screaming, I'm so pretty. Like the whole time. So for me.

Wait, what kind of restaurant is this? Which restaurant? It was a steakhouse in Tucson, I want to say. Yeah. I want to, was it like a firebirds or something like that? I don't know. It was something. It was nice.

It was nice. It wasn't no, like it wasn't Applebee's. Like, we were at a nice restaurant. It's on the team time, right? And so they made me, I don't know to this day why. Like somebody had it in their head that, yo, it looks like Sammy Davis Jr. And so they made me sing.

What was it? The Candy Man can. The Candy Man, yes, the Candy Man can't. In front of a restaurant, like not to our table. Like, no, you got to sit and you got to project. And so all these people came for a quiet dinner at this nice, classy restaurant. They turn around and they just see me like belting it up. Because I don't know the words.

I said, I can't sing it. I don't know the words. I don't know. Which asshole pulled it up. Boom, they had it printed out on a piece of it. There you go. Like, shit. So I had to read the lyrics off a piece of paper.

And then there was a lot of alcohol involved after that. But yeah, man, Roger's my vet, man. I'm proud of that. He led me the right way, I would say. I mean, do you remember what Lucas Tischer? You remember that name from camp? Yeah. You remember what he had to sing that?

You remember he was Brazilian? Yeah. You remember what he sang that night? No, what did he sing? He sang, I think it was Copa Caban. or something like that he had to sing and broken English. It was a great night to be a vet.

Tough on the roots, though. Hey, my man did not speak English. He didn't speak English, no, yeah. So he didn't even know what he was reading. Like, did you all give him lyrics too? Like, what's going on right now? This was like, I mean, like a six, eight freak of a human being that, like, did not speak English.

And so he knew some, no, no, no, it wasn't Copacabana. It was some Brazilian, some Brazilian, some Brazilian song that he sang that was that was Lombada or was it Lombada bro that's not Brazilian man It was that Spanish just some Portuguese song No not Lombada um no no no no no no no no no no no no no I don't know the name of that song I thought it was Copa it was not I was wrong but it was it was it was it was very entertaining as well But I must have Amin pulled it off though I mean pulled it off he was he was game like it was you know some dudes get up there and

they're like ashamed to be up there and they make such a spectacle of it that it's not even like funny like a mean participated it was cool i i fought against doing it because i said i'm not a rookie because technically this was my second season but then they hit me with the technicality of well you were an intern last year said i don't count and the first game of this you know of your second season hasn't been played yet so you still a rookie basically dog you got you got lucky i was a rookie three times, bro. Yo, what was your favorite, what was your rookie hazing, Raja? What did you do?

I'm trying to think of hazing. What are your three rookie hazings? I actually got pretty, I got pretty lucky in terms of hazing. I didn't have any real assholes. So the strangest thing, like, was the year I spent with J.R. Ryder, like, it was the preseason. I was with the halt. Yeah.

They had just traded from my man, right? And, like, I've told this story before, bro. Like Lenny Wilkins had a policy. Alameda legend. The only stipulation like in the dress code for flying was jacket and shoes. Like there was no other like real benchmarks of what you had to do like with a dress code. So this brother didn't have any of that. He wore sweatsuits all the time.

So he borrowed my Ava Rex jacket and a pair of like Havana Joe boots, no shirt on underneath it and sweatpants and just showed up on the on the plane like that. And then there was another instance where, as the rook, he asked me to give him some clean samples so that he could pass the one drug test we had. Yeah. But I'm like, dog, I had to respectfully decline. And I'm not even that dude. Usually I'm like, yo, whatever. But I was like, my man, I'm just trying to make the team, bro.

I can't get going up in that right now. I remember I saw Steve Kerr's son, Nick Kerr. They made him sing Blow to Whistle at the last, like, like, like, fan day at Oracle. And they made him do the whole thing In the video of it It was awesome But Tell me about that

How was that Phoenix Sun's era for you I mean You know with Starting with Raja But during your tenure at In Phoenix How was that for you? So for me

Because this was a third team I worked for I worked for the Hawks In the past I worked for the Knicks But like I used to joke Like Oh so this is what it's like

To work for a good team Because I mean hey The Hawks It's funny. The first, I worked three seasons with the Hawks. And that was when J.R. Ryder was there and Jimmy Jackson and Rick Mahorn was an assistant coach. Did you and Roger overlap at that time in Atlanta?

No, I don't think so. Because Roger was in Philly at the time, I want to say. Yeah, that would have been the year after they cut me probably, or two years after they cut me. Yeah. So I started there and, like, it was cool because for me, that was my first job. I'm like, oh, I'm working in the NBA, whatever. But, you know, team's terrible. And I was as entry level as entry level gets.

The next job was with the Knicks. And they were coming off a playoff appearance. So I'm like, cool. And I'm from New York. I grew up a huge Nick fan. I'm like, this is great. And you get there and then you realize, oh, that's why the team has problems. When you realize that the organization is all, everything is all upside down over there.

And it's never really always, what I found is we talk about bad organizations. It's rarely because of an individual's fault, right? It's not because of the general manager or because the coach or because the star player whatever. It's because the organizations messed up. And so that was kind of my experience there, but I learned a lot more because now I'm realizing how things are working and stuff. And I work with good people.

I worked with people who took the time to like teach me even though nothing was going right. So by the time I get to Phoenix, now I'm like, all right, I've been, I've been in, I'm, I'm an industry guy now, but how do I stick? And so that was my big thing. It's like, how do I stick? And so I came to Phoenix and, um, I was kind of hungry in a different way. It was, it was one of those things where, you know, if, you know, the rat with the maze and the cheese, at first they're going to sniff around and then I'll find it. But if you keep putting the same rat in the same maze, now he knows exactly how to get to the cheese. And that was kind of what I was like.

I was in there and I'm talking to all the right people, I'm getting to know everybody. And at the same time, the team is awesome, right? They just gone to the conference finals in 06. And my first day working in basketball ops, I was like on a Monday and then on Wednesday, they all went to Italy, the training camp. Yeah.

Everybody. I'm going everybody. The entire basketball operation, Griff and Mark West and everybody was gone. The only person left in the office was me. So one of the things that happened to me when I was with the Knicks was, much of the time I sat around waiting for someone to tell me to do something. And it wasn't until like the last third of the season where I was like,

fuck it, I'm going to start doing things. And if someone likes it, they like it. And I remember I did this whole project. on like Jamar Crawford, his field goal percentage in different situations like off the dribble, how many, like shit that's available to us now because of the data. Like I was logging that shit off of tape

and like cutting the film and stuff. And so I remember the late Dickie McGuire, who's like one of the great scouts of all time, Hall of Fame or whatever, he was an old dude that just gave everybody shit. Like, because he just, you know, old NBA life is whatever. And so one of my kids,

My job was I'm supposed to enter his scouting reports on the computer because he didn't use computers. He just wrote everything. So while I'm doing that, he's looking at my stuff and he's like, you did this? And I said, yeah. And he said, why are you wasting your time here? I said, what you mean? It's like, yo, basketball's for dumb people. You could have an actual job.

I do this because I can't do anything else. And I'm like, man, I love it, though. I want to do this for a living. And so that's when I started, okay, I need to do more of these projects. So fast forward, I'm with the sons. They're gone. I was like, all right, I'm not going to sit around. I started doing all these crazy projects.

When they came back, I handed like a stack of shit to Griff. And Griff was like, you did all of this while we were gone? I'm like, yeah. And so that kind of won Griff over. And then, like, being in the video room with the video guys with Noel Gillespie and Jason Marsh Knowles, now the head coach of, I want to say, Atlanta's G-League affiliate. And Jason is the head coach of Memphis's G-G League affiliate. but those were the video guys.

Opening night, we were playing the clippers and the computers all crashed and them dudes didn't know what to do. So I went in there and I fixed it because I had experience working with computers and stuff and that won those guys over. And so on and so forth, you start doing all these things

that no one asks you to do and that kind of gets you ingratiated with everybody. And then, like, that's when the fun begins as far as being part of a winning franchise. What reports were you writing while we were away, Doug? Like, did you write a report? report on me? Like, when were you ready, bro? I'm interested. What were you? What did you come into

Phoenix and say there'd be value in them knowing like a deeper dive into this? So at the time, Griff had like this metric system that he evaluated players off of. I mean, it wasn't like a hard and fast thing because you know Griff, right. Griff's a very, I take information how it comes, but it was just something to help inform him on like certain players or whatever. they did it only for NBA players, right? He called it B-I-Q. And so I figured out what the formula was for it. Then I took it to college basketball,

and I had all 300 colleges in D-1. I fed everybody's stats into it, and boom, I sorted it out by that number. Oh, shit. And I was like, boom, here we go. The other thing was that the time Synergy was still brand new. Like, everybody used Synergy now, but back then, like, nobody knew how to use it.

Sure. So I sat around, I had a synergy login, and I sat around, I learned how to do that shit. So when they came back and they would have scout meetings, like, I ran, I was driving. I was running the video because, like, anything you wanted. Hey, I want to see, this is the time I think Florida was winning national championship. I want to see Corey Brewer, Joe Kim Noah Pick and Rolls. Boom, got it. Like, you know, and just stuff like that.

I was just learning how to do stuff that I knew would come in handy. Our scouting reports that we would do, you remember this, Roger, you know, the orange sheets that we'd have on the mirror, on the mirror, whatever, the individual player scouting reports, like, I redid those. The scatter reports that the coaches would do after we'd play a team, right? Like the post-mortem, whatever. I redid that form so that all they would have to start typing and it would all fill in and shit. So it's just, it wasn't like, yo, I found this gem and this diamond in the rough that's going to be an MVP one day. but it's just little things that make the whole operation smoother. Yes, sir.

How does that help you, Rajah, when you have a guy like Amin or somebody that is going an extra mile to make sure, especially around that time because that's before we really start getting this energy and we really start getting those advanced metrics? But how does that help you as a player help inform you on the game that you're playing? Well, that's what it's about, right? Like at the time, like I didn't know Amin was spending the amount of time that he was kind of doing that.

But we're looking for as much information as we can get that's pertinent to the job we have to do in the most efficient way, right? Like, I don't want to sift, I don't wanna have to sit there and sift through, if you will, an entire, at the time there were DVDs to figure out like how I'm guarding Kobe, right? Like streamline that shit.

Get me all the clips of him, you know, going left into his pull-up and then get me all the clips of him going right and having to counter it if I cut him up. Like, if you can streamline it and get it to me, like that, like that becomes really important to me doing my job. So that's almost exactly the example I was going to say

is that Roger would come in and there's two things he would do. One, it would be like, we're going to play the Lakers. So Roger would want, like, our last four games, every possession out of guarding Kobe. And because we're logging it as video guys that have all that. And so it was just the matter of

just hitting a button, export, and then having it burn. And then Roger could sit and watch possession out, possession out to possession, and figure out the stuff. other thing you used to do, Roger, I don't know if you remember this. If you were going through a slump, you would ask for tape of you hitting shots. Yeah. So we have Roger makes.

I would already, I'd have the DVD ready. I was like, he's going to come in for this one. Be like this motherfucker ain't made it three and five games. He's going to need a tape. Let's get it ready. It's like he walks in the door, you have the tape form like here, bro. You know, I got that from Gordon Chiesa, man. I don't know if you know Gordie.

Utah. Yeah, one of my favorite coaches, bro. Like, I'd be going through slumps and, you know, he would show up with the breakdown of makes. And we'd sit there and I'd be like, dog, I know what I'm doing when I made shots. But it was just, it helped me. And so I took that wherever I went. That's dope. So you were there, so from 06, I mean, so what are like 2010, right?

2012. 2012. I saw it all the way to the end. That's what I'm saying. So you saw both sides of it, right? you saw Raj's, you know, where it's the height of the height, and then you go into 2012, I guess that's the lockout year. What was the biggest change from Roger's time there

to the time when you ended and gone to the dark side? Easy, management. When Roger was there, David Griffin was there. I believe a year into my tenure, Steve Kerr joins. But like when I got to Phoenix, everybody who worked there. I'm not like everybody, marketing, business, whatever. There was two types of employees. There was people who was there when the building was open in 92, and then there were people have been there since 69. So I was like the young whippersnapper, whatever. And everyone

in there was like a lifer. Uh, so Griff had been there since 92. Mark West, obviously, had played for the team since the 80s. Um, uh, Todd Quinter had been there since the 80s. John Shumate had been a drag pick of the team in like the 60s or whatever. So everyone in that front office had been there for a long time and kind of knew the lay of the land. And overtime, people left. And so by the time you get to 2012, you got, I at six years in became one of the most tenured people in the organization, which is insane. I'm like, I'm the new guy. All of a sudden, now I'm the guy telling bedtime stories about it.

I remember when we went to conference finals and this happened. It's just an insane kind of power shift to go. But the reality is it really kind of was, it started with Jerry Colangelo selling the team, really. And Jerry was around, but the less influence Jerry had, the further we went away from that family environment and the more it turned into people who knew how to manage up, right?

If I know, say the right things, I'm going to get promoted and this will happen. And so for me, my whole time working for the sons under Steve and Griff was I never had any questions about agendas. I knew we were all trying to win. We may not go about it the right way. And, you know, I know, me and Roger have had this conversation before,

like what happened when we hired Terry Porter and, you know, how everything kind of started to fall apart around that. But, like, we were earnestly thinking that we were doing the right thing, even though it turned out to be a mistake. Transition to, now people don't give a fuck about doing what's right for the organization or for the winning or whatever and it's all about how does this reflect on me so I could look better I remember doing stuff for the new management and they were like yo you got to have a cover and they got to say buy amina has and then I'm like

why so they know you did it I'll say who gives a fuck who did it we're trying to get good information to make good decisions like I'm still going out of naive like I'm trying to win and y'all out here's like no no what's you're like no what's you're like no what's What's your goal? I remember I had the talk with the dude, the GM, whose name I will never say because he's a bum. But he sat there with me at his first training camp and he said, what's your goal? And I said, oh, you know, I want to help us win a championship. He said, no, no, no, no, no.

What's your goal, though? So to help us win a championship. Yeah, that's the goal, bro. Isn't that yours? So I say, what's your goal? He said, well, I'm the general manager. So that means I manage things generally. That's literally verbatim what he said to me.

And like his whole thing was like when I was in Cleveland, my thing was how can I become a general manager one day? And now I'm like, why are you telling me your life story? Why is your goal something other than to help us win a championship? But that's when I started to realize, oh, man, like that what we just came out of, that wasn't the real NBA. The real NBA is people who are all fighting for like placing the hierarchy. How can I be better? How can I have a higher thing? How can I get a raise and not how can we win?

Wow. That's what do you, how do you feel when, what is your response to that, Roger? How do you feel when you hear that, at least from the front office side? Because we've talked about your difficulties with management,

you know, with, you know, Sarver and how do you feel when you hear from, you know, the front office point of view? It's deep, but it's not surprising.

And I think, you know, dysfunction always kind of, starts at the top. I mean, said it before, the good teams that you play on, the ones that are collectively trying to win, you can feel

that as a player. Like, you know that there's an investment made by everyone. They, they established the family culture that we talked about last episode, right? And that Almein was talking about there, that we felt in Phoenix. And you know that. Like, and you learn how

to navigate it. And even if you're on a team that doesn't have that, I mean, it's going to affect your ability to go out there ultimately and be the best team you can because you're probably not going to have the best decisions made for the best reasons. But it doesn't really affect your day to day. I mean, you're still going out there. You know, my job is to play basketball. I'm trying to feed my family and make this bread while I can make it.

I'm not going to let no pettiness in a front office if I can help it affect my ability to do that, you know? Yeah. Roger, do you remember the conversation we had when I saw, I saw you that first preseason after all the change happened. And I pulled you aside. You remember that talk? Yeah, it was down there in the bowels of the arena, right? Yeah.

And I don't remember the pointed question you asked me, but correct me if I'm wrong. I said to you, like, be careful because people want to know your opinion on shit and they really don't. Like, so don't give them everything you got because they don't want to hear that shit. They're just asking to be asking.

That's exactly what he said. So I went to Roger, and I said, Roger, when you were here, we hired Terry Porter. It was the wrong decision. We all knew it was the wrong decision, but we wanted to lie to ourselves, say, oh, give him a chance and see da-da-da. And Roger was one of the people from the beginning. It was like, that guy doesn't know what he's doing.

Facts. Like, just straight up, I'm not talking about, like, kind of, I don't know, guys, like straight up in the middle of practice, like, you don't know what you're talking about, right? You said this to the coach, Roger? Probably. I'm going to say, because the statute of limitations run out, because this is one of my favorite stories. I never forget

this. We're in practice, we're going five on no on this side. Raj's at the basket at the other end. I shit you're not practicing sky hooks for like 20 feet. Like just Karim al-Dajibar from 20 feet out

by himself lefty, righting. In the middle of it, he grabs the ball, dribbles up to half court to where we're at on the other side of court, says, what the fuck are we doing? And then walks back and it goes back to practice this guy. Roger.

Bro. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. I mean, go ahead. The crazy thing is, like, it's kind of like, I know that feeling now, you know, like, as a father, when I see my kids,

and, like, they'll say something that I know is hilarious and right, but at the same time, you kind of, like, feel like, I can't show that emotion. You're still a parent. You're still a parent. You can't like just give them that. That's inappropriate. That's inappropriate.

But like same thing. It was like with Roger, we're like, I'm dying laughing, first of all, on the inside. But also part of me is like, he's right, man. Like the drills that we're doing right now, this ain't high school, man. What are we doing? What are we doing?

Right. But also you're like, nah, you got to let the coach kind of figure his way out and find his way. And, you know, Rod, you got to give him a chance. And ultimately what happened was. Roger got traded. Yep. Because, like, he wasn't with the shit.

And then Terry Porter got fired maybe, like, a month later or two months later. He, that was his first season. He didn't make it to All-Star Break. And so, fast forward, I'm going to a situation where I'm working for someone who clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Clearly, I'm talking about, like, they want to have a free agent point guard workout. They don't want to consult me because I'm the old guy, so they don't want anyone. want to do everything on their own.

And as they're getting on, the guy's getting on the floor, it's like, you got the waivers, right? And they're like, waivers? Why? You know, if someone gets hurt right now, guess what? Congratulations, you just signed that dude for the season, basically. Right. So I'm sitting here, I'm thinking like,

these people don't know what they're doing. And I'm talking to people and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, no one does shit about it. So I asked Roger, I said, Roger, you were right and we were wrong. and now I'm in a situation or the same thing I feel like I'm the only person pointing out the emperor has no clothes

what should I do? And Rodgers said exactly what he says like there's going to be a lot of people who act like they're on your side and they want to hear your opinion these people don't care and he said actually the last thing you said is like

do you like it here? Do you like living in Phoenix? I said yeah. He said, man, just be quiet and go along with it. Facts because I had just fucked it up like real talk because I loved Phoenix.

Wait, did you know you fucked up as soon as you said that? that shit, Roger? As soon as you were Roger Abdur... I was off the reservation at that point, dog. Like, I was Scott Hooking here. Mind you, like, this is how, this is how...

Like, I could have been down there shooting regular jump shots because that's what I did, but I took it to the sky hook. Like, that tells you how far off the reservation I was with that shit, right? But... I was dying, man. It was crazy, but Terry... So, what happened with that, like, was when Terry came in, and I don't know if you know this,

I mean, like, I don't, when we went down to Arizona for, for training camp, like, he brought in, uh, Dick, Dick, Dick Bennett. Was that his name? His coach. Yeah, Dick Bennett, Wisconsin Whitewater or whatever. Yeah. And, you know, I was, we were all like, okay, that's cool. Yeah, that's what's up. Like, I'm sure he's legendary and everything. And we put all, like, he had a bunch of clips of our year before offense, like of, mind you, Western Conference, uh, contending team. He put our offense up. And shit you not. The first clip that goes up is me, coming down like Steve bringing it up and kicking it ahead and me toeing the line and making a three. And the first thing he said was while you made that shot, it's not a good shot for us. And we were like, you know, we had been sold on Terry Porter coming in and just tightening up our defense. Like keeping the same kind of philosophy offensively and just tightening the reins on what we did defensively. So when we all heard that, like literally we all looked around like, what? And so at that point, I said, well, you know, respectfully, like, that's a good shot for me. And he said, well.

You said respectfully? Yeah. And he said, well, that's not going to be a good shot for us. And that's how we started. Right. And so we were all kind of like, man, this is crazy, bro. And then, you know, little shit, like, we had to play. It's pistol action.

I mean, you know, pistol action. Like, 21. We called it 21, right? Yeah. He refused to let us call it 21. Like, Steve wanted to call it 21. We all called it 21. Wait, he went against the franchise?

was like, no, we're not going to do this. This man had to have it called pistol. He would not let us, the nomenclature had to be his. And he fucked it up, by the way. Like, because 21, the basic 21 is the hit ahead and then the handoff back. And then the big comes and sets the deep screen. Yep. And then you come off the screen.

And then there was the flare. You could set the flare. He made us run 21, but the big would run to the block. And it turned into a post up. Correct. And we're like, that's not, that defeats the whole purpose of this thing being open and pre-flowing and all that. And by the way, it's not like he was joining the seventh or the ninth or the 12th best

offense in the league. We were the best offense in the league. Every year. It wasn't a bloke. So here's what, so like I would sit around and lightweight, I felt some kind of way about this because we had good, we had good voices on that team. Like there were dudes on that team. And when we would sit around and drink wine or sit around in the cold tub, this was

a conversation that we all had. Everyone was on board with this. I was the only asshole to go out there and fucking say it. Wait, right? No, we're talking. And so I did feel some kind of way because nobody had my back on that shit. I'll say, I'll, Boris was the other one. I'm saying he came with me and he left with me.

He got traded with you first of all, but saying, well, Boris did it in the Boris way. So Roger's going to do it like, boom in your face. Roger's going to throw his shots. Yeah. Boris, Boris's way was because, you got to understand, Boris D.R. grew up, Maddie Johnson's his favorite player. He grew up, he went to an account. academy for basketball. He didn't go to high school. The dude went to an academy for basketball, right?

His mother is the greatest French women's basketball player in the history of the country, right? So his whole thing is like, I play basketball. Positions are bullshit. I can run point. I could be center or whatever. Terry comes in and says, you'll power forward when you grab a rebound, you've got to find a guard

and give it to him. You don't bring the ball up, which was we let Boris grab the rebound and bring it up like Draymond Green. He'd bring it up and make plays and whatever. So, Boris's thing is, first of all, is like you're insulting my intelligence saying, I can't be trusted to do this.

But also, I'm going to be a dick about it. So Boris would grab the rebound, take one hard dribble up the court, stop, turn and look for Steve and then like hand him the ball like it was a newborn like cradling it. Here. And then after he'd hand it to Steve,

he'd look at the bench. That's boo-boo. That's boo-boo. Dog, he spent an entire game. Terry got on him in Minnesota. I forget what the argument was about, but Terry got on him on Minnesota. So Boris spent the entire game, some of the best footwork in the post,

like lightweight that I've ever seen, like stars included. Like his footwork in the post was impeccable. So he spent the entire game backing people down and getting right to the front of the rim. And I believe Terry Porter's thing was like, you need to score those in there. Boris spent an entire game working his way,

like I'm talking about on the front of the rim and kicking that shit out. Fused to shoot. Every time. Every single time. Dream shakes and up and under's and drop steps. I mean, it was textbook. But, like, right?

He'd act like he was going up and then, and then kick that shit out. So, Rosu. In the way corner. You and Boris are both assholes, just different ways and different ways, right? Boris and I are kindred spirits. We're just,

we deliver a different. Different deliveries, bro. So when did you know, like, because in my mind, the Phoenix Suns, especially in that era, if everyone stays in place, like they could be in the conversation with the spurs

in terms of longevity, right? Like, I don't know if they win, I don't know how many titles you guys win, but I do see like it's just stability and things like that. Do you guys believe that if that happens? Like, I know that's from my vantage point. Do you guys feel that way? Or how do you feel, if everything goes right,

how does it, how does this end up happening? Listen, I thought when Mike left, and I wasn't, I mean, you might have been in those conversations. with Mike. I don't know if you feel comfortable speaking on that or not, but when Mike left, I thought that was the first domino. Because we were going to lose our identity. No one else was playing like that.

And no matter how much, like, you know, Steve Kerr was on the phone with me talking to me about how this was going to work, and TP was going to keep the bones of our offense. And, like, no one had the vision like Mike did at the time to do that. So for me, when that happened, it was going to be the beginning of the end of it. But I did think if Mike stayed and they could figure out obviously how to, you know, put pieces around. There was stuff that we kind of needed.

We would have won. We would have won a championship. Like I don't, I don't, there's no doubt in my mind. It just, it didn't work out like that. So we, we used to always think about, like, Utah as a comp where, like, Jerry Sloan was a coach for eight million years. And he going to be the coach. And if you come here, you understand this is how we play. And if you can't play this way, then this isn't the place for you.

like, well, it's the coach on the hot seat. They didn't deal with that in Utah. So, and I know Utah, I didn't win a championship, but I'm just saying that's kind of like, though. So we thought Mike was going to be the coach forever, right? Because Mike just wanted a coach, and you want to coach his style,

and we had an MVP that fit perfectly, and so everything was going to go. When Steve Kerr came in, and he's talked about this, him and Mike butted heads, because Mike is like, well, this shit works. Why are we doing something different? and Steve was trying to introduce some things that weren't quite

that just at the time I think Steve had more experience being a general manager he would know that coaches take that a certain way like when you come in and you point out what if we do this or what if we do that and so that fractured the relationship that led I believe Mike to start thinking

this shit is over here Mike didn't get fired Mike left Mike left he took a job in New York we never there was never a feeling at any time like, I don't know if Mike's the right guy for the job. It was just, you know, suggestions from a fun office and that highlights kind of like a reality in the NBA that the front office and the coaches have got to be on the same page because if they're not, the coaching staff will often be very paranoid about what's happening. And rightfully so, you look

around the league, the lifespan of a coach is like three years. So no matter how good you are, doing Casey one coach of the year, then got fired. So like, it's right that coaches are paranoid, but unfortunately it can sometimes it's just paranoid sometimes it's not real so mike leaves we go for the hunt for a new coach and raja that's why i said like there's a difference team making a mistake and just being incompetent for us we legitimately were looking for someone to coach up the defense like raja said the offense is perfect now we just need someone to shore up the defense and we interviewed a bunch of people and t p was like yeah yeah yeah everything cool the first the first first red flag, Roger, was way before you guys even showed up. It was in August. We had a

coach's retreat. And we go to the coach's retreat to talk about, like, philosophies and all that. And I never forget this. One of my guys comes back and he says, it's going to be a long year. I'm like, what do you mean? He said, we spent the entire time talking about offense. I said, oh, y'all were teaching him our offense? He's like, no. He brought like the flip Saunders, 45 fist twist, every play takes 18 seconds to develop, Rip Hamilton, 700, baseline screens for a mid-range jumper offense. And I said, well, maybe that's just the stuff so that when he gets into it, we're up to speed on it, because he might add some stuff here and there. So we get to camp and the first practice, in the first film sessions, Rogers

Wright, was all about offense. And it took us, I believe Steve Garland, had to talk to him and say, hey, man, you're going to get to defense? Like, he did it kind of like in a subtle way, but not so subtle way. And that was the day that Dick Bennett came in and we were doing the, like, the Hoosiers sliding and, and that's when, you know, I'll never forget this. Shack started singing, no baloney. We miss Mike Dantonie in the middle of practice. Yo.

Right. Wait, that's fun. I forgot that. Yes, he was singing that in the middle of practice. Shack said that. Shack said that. The T-Pain's singing it. The T-Pain song.

The T-Pain song, I could put you in the cabin up in Wisconsin. Remember that? He was singing it to that tune like, No, baloney. We miss Mike Dentone. And so now what ended up happening, this is how Shack got flipped, right?

Because at first, Shaq was like, what the fuck is this shit? Yeah. But then we started going to offense and we started running a shit ton of triangle. Started posting that big bell. Yes, sir. And so Shaq,

when Shaq came in the year before, you got to remember Shaq thought his career was over and Aaron Nelson in shape y'all got him y'all got him right he thought it was over it's over I'm like this is my last year in the league and that's it and Aaron Nelson I never forgot before we trade him for Shaq

he looked at a video for like 15 minutes he's like yeah he's fine all you got to do is do this and this is this and this is a good this isn't firing whatever we'll have them back on the court in two weeks and damn it wasn't like 10 days they had him back on the court they're dope like that they're dope like that they're the best so Shaq comes back

And that, remember Roger, he was the whole thing was like, my mission is to make Amar Saddamayor the greatest power forward ever. Gifted the man of Rari upon arrival. Like that's the way, wait, wait, wait, what? What? Yeah, gifted the man of Rari. What happened? We're going to get back to that.

But like, what happened? Listen, I mean, he gave the man a Ferrari. Like, I don't notice Stademeyer gave it back to him or not because I was gone after that. But it was like a, it was like a peace offering. Like, dog, I'm here. to help you. To be a big brother.

Yeah, to be a big brother. Really said that, like verbalized that. And here's this, here's this Rari just in case you don't think I'm for real about that. Take that. Hey, Roger, what's your gift for me and Sasha, bro? What? I mean, I got a Nike comp.

Y'all want a T-shirt? Yep. That's a free. Go ahead of me. That's how Roger took care of me. That Nike account. I might actually have those shoes here. crazy thing. I'll look for it later. But anyway, so Shack that first year was like everything.

Like, I'm just here to rebound and bring protected, make us better, right? And he did. We ended up that year like 21 and 10 down the stretch or whatever. We're playing great. We got knocked out by the spurs and the playoffs. It happens, you know, like it just was one of four out of five games. Three out of the four losses were like one point games. Timmy hit his only three of the season like to beat us in overtime. Like, yeah, stuff like that. yeah man and so we go to camp the next year shack is still kind of in the same mindset and then the offense starts and then you give

this old lion a taste of raw meat again he's like oh yeah oh now he remembers how it feels to get touches every single time and back down and dunk on people and and so now shack is not quite as like on board with the get this guy out of here playing. Shaq is like, well, let's hear him. I mean, he's cool. Like, let's figure this out.

Let's calm down. Let's figure this out. He might have a point here, guys. Right. And Shaq wound up being an all-star that year. Yeah, and also MVP. He was also MVP. And Phoenix.

Jack, and Shabawki in it and shit. In Phoenix. Yeah. I mean, that was like, look, to me, that was like the testament to, like, our training staff is the best training staff in the world. Because we took a dude who thought his career was over,

and a year later, we made him all-star MVP. in the same way that they took McDice, who everyone thought he'll never play again, and he ended up making like $60 million after that. Grand Hill? Like Grand Hill came in, hadn't played in, who knows how long. Yeah, and Grant Hill got six more years,

like five more, six or five more years on his career. Like real good ones. Steve Nash. Steve Nash. Mark Cuban was like, he's done. And the guy turns out of a two-time MVP. So there's a bunch of other dude. Michael Red was a guy that people thought couldn't play again,

and he came back and he played for the sons. I mean, it's, that training staff was just magical. I just wanted to see how Shaq was in the locker room, bro. Like, he just seems like he was a guy that like he'll, he picks you up, you know, he'll take you around. He's joking. Like, what is Shaq like in the locker room? Shaq.

Go ahead. Yes. I want to hear the stories. Shaq is a funny dude. He's a really, really, really good teammate. Really good teammate. Likes, likes to tease, right? It likes to bear hug people to your point.

And I remember Goran Gura checking him were playing before a game in the locker room. And, you know, Goran got a little physical and Shaq finally had to show him what was up, put him in a choke hole, put him to sleep, like right at my feet in the locker late. The man was asleep, knocked out game day. This is, I don't know, 20 minutes on the clock.

Oh my God. Yeah, it choked him out right there and all my feet. Shack, yo, Shack is, first of all, the weirdest person I've ever met in my life. Like, if y'all think what you see on TV, it's like, that's not Shack. Like, the real Shack is just a hundred times weirdo. He, he, I remember before his first game, I'm walking past the lockers, and he, like, calls me over, and he goes, and I say, oh, wait, you want some gum? And he just not, he doesn't want to talk, right?

So I go get some gum And I said What kind he wants? He said cinnamon So I go and I get him like though Or he's a big red I go back the orbit cinnamon one And he looks like

What the fuck is this bullshit? I said you want we didn't have Big Red We had this what we got He's like I don't want that shit The next time you bet next game You better have my Big Red or whatever He goes out he plays that game He plays great

The next game I went out and bought Big Red for him He's like no no no Give me that other shit He wants a lot Orbit's now because he thinks it like it gave him powers or whatever. He, uh, he, uh, he one time he comes in, he's got like this big, like this old, like GSM looking phone, right? The ones that they use out in Afghanistan, right? So he says, I need you to find the manual for this.

I'm going to go to practice. I'll be right. I'll be back after practice and get the manual. I said, where did you get this from? He said, I bought it from Walmart. I said, they don't sell this at Walmart. He's like, no. Turns out this is like the inventory scanner.

that they use at Walmart. But Shaq somehow knew that it also doubles as a GSM phone. So I printed out the entire manuals like 500 pages. After practice, he comes and sits down on the floor of the video room. I swear to God, he went through every single page. No, don't need this, don't need this. Comes out with the 20 pages he needed and walks away with that. Yeah, he, his...

Every gadget. Look, that brother was on the bus one time with us. and he told me that he could send a text from my phone to someone or a call. He could call someone else's phone from my phone, not accessing my phone. And I'm like, that's bullshit. Like, you can't. Because he loves the bullshit. That's the other side of Shaq, though.

Yes, he is full of shit. He loves the bullshit. So we bet whatever little menial about a bread, it wasn't a lot. But he, he, he, Leandro Barbosa's phone starts ringing. I got my phone in my hand. and that shit has my phone number popping up on LBs and Shaq is two rows ahead of me

looking at me like laughing. Like he was just really into the tech world and music and all. He's an eclectic dude, man. He got a lot of, he got a lot of interest, man. He is an interest in Burr. But let me just say right now,

his bullshit game is like, every story he tells has the same structure. It's going to start as a real story. And then somewhere along lines, he's just going to start being foolish.

about it. And if you keep like listening, he's just going to, he's wanting you to catch him. Yeah. So we're at training camp the next year and he's, we're having a breakfast meeting. And he comes in late. He's all out of breath. And he sits down at the rookie table. I'm sitting with the rookies. He comes to sit down at the rookie table. And I said, big fella, where you been? He said, man, I had a hell of a night. We're at Palm Springs. It wasn't training camp. We're at Palm Springs. He said, I went to L.A. to go see to go holler at this girl or whatever. He said, we went to dinner and she's driving. And I was like, okay, you can drop me off. And then she said, no, I'm not, you know, you're coming back with me. And he said, no, no, I got to get back. It's like early morning practice or whatever. She says, no. So he says, I took the silverware from out of my to-go bag of the food. And I threatened her with the knife, if you don't let me go, I'm going to cut you. So then she let me go. and then I had to get like somebody, I called somebody to pick me up, whatever.

And the rookies are like, yo, that's what the NBA is like. You got these women who kidnap you, whatever. And I was like, they're like, Big fella, I've been to a lot of restaurants, man. A lot of fancy restaurants. I've never been to the one where you get it to go order and they give you metal silverware.

Metal silverware. They give you plastic fork and he just, this smile comes on his face. I'm like, you can't believe this now. I'm like, look at him. He's like, do not believe anything this man says because it's all bullshit, man. Turns out, he went to, yeah.

Turns out what? He just went to dinner. And like, like, he was just late. Oh. He was just late. He said instead of like, just say, hey, my bad, I'm late. He just thought it'd be funny to have a tail. You remember when he came in and said he saw Sasquatch in the desert?

Like, real talk. He was like, big, like, I saw Bigfoot. There was a Bigfoot, a Sasquatch. My man had had someone film him. Like, we didn't know it at the time because you just see it's a, grainy, like, blurry video of, like, desert at dusk, so the lighting is poor and all of that. And this is a big effing figure, like, walking like Bigfoot would walk in some of those fake

videos. And everybody's, like, huddled around. And then we're like, wait, that ain't no goddamn saskwash. That's your big ass walking through the desert. Like, he has set the whole shit up. The production value on these things. You know what I'm not? It's not like just like, hey, I.

No, he's like putting extra shit on it. Great lies. Oh my God. It's the best. That and roasting. Rod, do you remember when we were at a restaurant and Robert was there? And the grown-ups were sitting at a table. So it was you, Steve Grant, I believe Steve Kerr and Robert.

Y'all at this table, like entertaining the owner and like, you know, because y'all are the elder statesmen. And then our table is over here. and the way we were seated, because at round tables, your back was back to Shaq. And so Shaq is sitting there. He's roasting every person in the restaurant. He's calling out what they look like. He called Noel or Richie Cunningham looking ass motherfucker.

He called Elvis Valcarcelor, a video guy. He called him out of shape Ben Rothesberger, look him up. Like he's going through the whole room. And so he gets to Robert. And now they can't hear us because they're having their own conversation. But Roger can. So he calls Robert a daddy bonaducci looking ass motherfucker. And Roger starts laughing, but Robert thinks Roger's laughing at whatever story he's saying.

So Robert starts laughing. Fantastic. And Shaq says Robert sounds like someone sticking his balls with a feather. Part of it is we're just laughing at Shaq. But part of it's, I keep looking at Roger, and he's like, I see the tear come down in his face. You try to hold it together, bro. Oh, man. No, we're going to have to be like a run, like story time with the Mino has to, bro.

Like, this is amazing. I've forgotten most of these stories. I just want you to know, I had a rundown for this episode, and we both know this because we were all in the pre-podcast meeting. That rundown is out of here. Oh, my gosh. you know what we could look let me salvage it let me let me take let me ask let me ask you no to some degree to some degree were you surprised i mean you know steve well like you know you know nash well were you know were you know you surprised because i think a lot of people were

at least a lot of people who really know him that he wanted to coach like he's got a lot of interest um you know he's into he's into a lot of movie production and soccer and all your new family young family, all of that. Were you surprised that he was coming back? And, you know, how do you think he's doing so far? Roger, someone gave me the tip earlier, right? Like weeks or like four or five weeks. Roger got it a few months before and didn't even say anything.

Yeah. So I got it. I got it maybe like five weeks before. Yo, Sean Marks wants to hire Steve to be the head coach of the Brooklyn Nets. And so I don't break news. That's my thing. So I always slide it to my homies that do, right? So I sent my homie, like, look, here's a deal.

They're saying, Sean Marks, Steve Nash is the guy for the job, and he's offering the deal. And I said, and then I added my part, is like, he's never going to take it. Right. Are you kidding me? He lives in Manhattan Beach. And he's got it, like he said, young kids. And he's, like, playing beach volleyball every day, like, steps away from his house. And he's having fun.

And he's doing the. movie thing and the documentary thing. Like, he doesn't want any of these, like, headaches or whatever of being a head coach. Like, all his coaching it's, man, he goes up to Golden State and he does that up there. That's easy, bro.

I literally said there's zero percent chance he takes the job. And then he took the job. And then he took the job. I mean, look, it's, you know, but it speaks to, yo. Obviously,

I didn't play, but I'd be lying if I told you I don't feel that it's like I just want to be around a group and we're pulling towards the same goal again. Like in a way that media just doesn't scratch that itch. It doesn't.

Absolutely. I've had that conversation a bunch with agents and people asking me, you know, in years past about it. Like it could be fulfilling in its own way, but it's never the same as being in that mix and having that competitive kind of deal. You know what I mean?

I always say this. As far as a day-to-day average, media is so much easier. I like it a lot better. But the highs, you'll never get the highs you get being on a team. But you also, most of the time, you won't get the lows because those look like that. I remember Ryder the first game I went to when I'd stopped working with the Sons. It was Knicks at Sons. Your whole life.

Yeah, exactly. The Mean Bowl, right? And J.R. Smith hit a corner three to win the game. and you know that I felt that gut, but it's like, fuck. And then I'm like, oh, wait, I don't give a shit. Like, I'm fine. Right.

This is great. Wait, what is the high and low of that? Like, if it's just a regular season game, it's a buzzer-beater. What is, why is there such a low on that point? Are you like, oh, my God, my job is. Like, why is there such a low? It just, I don't know how to explain it, man. It just is.

Every loss feels like, shit, man, we're never going to win this shit. We're all going to get fired, da-da-da-da. Every win feels like, you know, ain't nobody beating our ass. You know what's interesting about that? You know what? No,

seriously, you know what I found interesting about that? Because as a player, we talk about not getting too high with the highs, too low with the lows, right? And especially in playoff series where like the momentum can conceivably switch,

like from game to game, I felt myself getting higher and lower on a game by game basis when I was in the front office. Like, when I played, I didn't feel that way. But in the front office, I really did.

Like, because the conversations you're having with Griff about what went wrong and what needs to be fixed. You know, those conversations are going to lend to you feeling like, oh, it's the end of the world. We got to do something about this. You know what it is? You know what it is, Roger? It's a lack of control. That's what it is.

When you plan, y'all have control. We don't have control. So once you get back over here, you're like, fuck, man. So I actually said, like, real talk. When I left that and people asked me to go back, I was like, you know what, man, I don't think I could do it in the front office because I didn't have any control. Like, if I coached, there would be a level of control. A little.

There's a little bit more. A little bit. But, like, because I sat in that box, I mean, watching the games with, like, all of this shit in my head about, man, we just need to do that. And I can't communicate any of that to anybody over there on that bench until after the game. You just got to sit there and watch it like everybody else. Yeah, that's tough. Man, wow. This has been a great episode.

a meme, I want to, before we get out of here, I do want to, you know, give you some pub and stuff like that. You just made a move from ESPN to Dan Lebertar's venture. How does that, can you shed more light on what you're going to be doing with Dan? Yeah, so Dan, Dan left ESPN as well. He started a new company called Metal Arc, along with John Skipper, who was a former president of ESPN who presided over ESPN over its most profitable, successful era ever. and you know for me it was a thing I've been at ESPN 8 years I met a lot of great people I met Dan there and but like I knew the people

that I like to work with and that I make I feel like I make good content with and many of those people the last couple of years were leaving one way or another and so when Dan was one of the last kind of places I was like if he's going I'm going to and so honestly right now all I can say is I'm going to do NBA coverage for them, a little analysis for them on the show. I know that right now they're kind of setting everything up. When things get more settled, we're going to have new shows that are going to unveil

and just expect to see me on a lot of the basketball stuff and a lot of the non-basketball stuff because, again, that's why I like working with Dan is that we get to kind of stretch outside the boxes that probably people want to put us in. Do you feel like you can stretch more out on here in this venture right now? Is that a big reason why you could? and the way that maybe you couldn't do it, ESPN? I'll say, like, look, at ESPN, there were places to do it. It's just those places were shrinking, right?

So three years ago, I used to do Sports Nation, which was like with Michelle Beatle and Marcellus Wiley and First Max and then LZ. And it was a show about sports, but it really wasn't. Like, we were just messing around half the time. And I enjoyed that. I did highly questionable, which, again, show about sports, but it really was.

It's about us messing around with the old man or whatever. And a dance show, the radio show, which was simo cast. And the jump, right, which was more serious and more about basketball, but Rachel's great at allowing us kind of to be silly and all that. And so Sports Nation gets canceled and highly questionable turns into like people in boxes type of show. And the jump turns into people in boxes type of show. And then Levitart show leaves. And so I'm looking around and I'm like,

Like, it's not that the company ever said, I mean you can't have fun or can't stretch out. It's just where are the places? Because you can't just do stuff on your own. You got to have a place where it's going to air or be played or whatever. And so as I'm seeing these places shrink, I'm like, I could stay here and be NBA analyst and be serious all the time. But I kind of don't want to do that.

I want to do more. And part of more is being more than a camera guy, you know, or on-camera talent, is being a creator and having ownership and the stuff I make. And again, like that's, you know, at a big company like ESPN, they own it all. So how do you do that?

You got to leave somehow. And so that's kind of, that was the big impetus for me. Like I'm ready for the next stage of my career. Oh, hey, wish y'all the best, man. You guys are two of my favorite people in the business, though, you and Dan. So, but I do have a question.

I do have a question, I mean, because I, well, my other favorite, one of my other favorite people in the business was Poppy. Like, was that, dude really hired, bro. Was that, dude, I mean, was that really, like, come on. Like, you got to give me to, keep it a buck with me, bro.

I got to know. So the problem with Roger asking this question is that Roger's known Dan way longer. I can't find myself to text him and ask him that. I don't know. Like, I'm scared to ask him. So I'm asking you. Yo, Roger was playing pickup basketball with Dan Levittar, where Roger was like 12 years old and Dan was a freshman in college or something,

which is embarrassing. by the way. Yeah, it's just like, you play with children, Dan, come on, man. I don't know how to answer that, man, because I kind of feel like part of being a part of Levitard show

is, man, we're doing the show at all times. The show doesn't end when the show ends. I live the show every day. So I kind of feel like, if you got to ask, I'm just keep going to get it. You're going to keep me on the hook. I got you, bro. You got to ask him yourself.

Yeah, I got it. I'm going to fire that text off today. He's lying. He's not. He's scared. Oh, I am. I'm firing it all. Fuck it. I had a meet on.

I'm asking Dan next. All right, man. That was a great episode. Before we get out of here, though, man, let's get to Real One of the Week. A segment where we shout out a person and entity and organization that we just thought was real, man. And this is kind of bittersweet for me. I'll start it off. Candace Parker, real one of the week, man.

She going to the sky. It hurts my heart because the sparks fumbled the bag. How do you like in a closeout game? How do you bench your best player in a closeout game? I don't know. Sparks fumbled a bag. Anyway, Candice Parker, happy she's going home. Real one of the week.

Raja, who's your real one of the week? My real one of the week is one less need. The general manager for the Los Angeles Rams. They were good. They've been doing some cool things. Went to the Super Bowl. But scare money don't make money. And he deemed that his quarterback wasn't going to get them to the promised land.

and so he didn't bulk it the chance to go out and get Matthew Stafford. I'm not saying that Matthew Stafford's going to get it done. Like, I don't know. I'm just saying the two first rounders and Jared Goff because he thought it was the right deal to make. Scare money don't make money. He's about to make some money. Real one.

Let's neat. I mean, who is your real one? Well, I'm going to go with Fred Van Bleet, man. Not only he's scoring a franchise record 54 points, but also the highest point total ever for an undrafted player. And the crazy thing was the record he broke. I was thinking like, yo, is Roger going to be on this list? Who's on this list?

It was Moses Malone. Moses Malone technically was undrafted because he came from the ABA. So that kind of like really blew my mind. I was like, wow, the dude never went through the NBA draft. So he counts as an undrafted player. And he broke Moses's record. And anytime you break a great one's record like that, man, you've got to feel good. But like, just take about Toronto, you know, you have Demarjozen, Chris Bosch, Vince Carter,

Tracy McGrady, Kyle Lowry, Quay Leonard, all of these. great scores, but the highest point total in franchise history belongs to Fred Van Bleet. Real one. A real one. That's been another edition of the Real On the Real Ones podcast, man, on the NBA, Ringer NBA feed. You can check us out

every Monday and Thursday. You can also check out group chat, mismatch, The Answer, which is a new show with Chris Ryan. Also checks out some of our other podcast like R2C2 with who, Robbeno. Belio Legend, C, Sabathia. Damn right. and the Ringer NBA show of my,

ringer music show, excuse me, with my guy, Charles Holmes, man, we will see you guys next week. Thank you, A mean,

for coming on, bro. Yes, sir.