The Ringer NBA Show - An Early (but Not Too Early) MVP Conversation | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

Justin and Rob are joined by J. Kyle Mann to rank their top five MVP candidates and discuss a couple of other guys who could get in the mix. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: J. Kyle Mann Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, the host of the podcast, Plain English. We tackle technology, politics, culture, history, everything that's happening in the world, and why it matters. New episodes of Plain English drop every Tuesday and Friday on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Baird. Joining me as always, Rob Mahoney, and our special guest graduating from upside high, ready to talk about actual basketball players. It's Jay Kyle, man. What's up?

Well, first of all, how dare you? How dare you condescend to... I never pegged you as like an only large market guy. I think your personality just creeped out there. You just, you're an enemy of small markets and the little man and young players. And I'm just disappointed in you, Justin, honestly. I'm just shocked. I'm really shocked and hurt.

I don't even think it's that. I think he's just a lover of higher education. He's ready for you to get that diploma, get out in the world. No, happy to be here for sure. I assume that my coastal elitism just like oozes through the Zoom screen here, so I don't even need to say it. You are a Yukon fan too. Also, that's the thing. There's that kind of elitist thing built in. Don't come after the Yukon fan. We're just winners, you know? I haven't watched in five years, but I know that they're okay now. So there's that. Speaking of winners, hey, what do you know? We're going to get into the MVP conversation. We're about like what, a month and a half out from the end of the season. So it's a little bit early. to talk about the MVP, but I actually think it's more interesting now because there are a lot of

probably deserving candidates. And I feel like now is when people really start to dig into the specifics of the conversation. And in particular, after a monster night from John Moran, what was it, 52 points, the buzzer-beater in 0.4 seconds, which I don't even know how that was allowed or like what physics were needed in order to get that off. And obviously the dunk over portal. because I think one of the big questions I'm asking myself here, Rob, is it seems like people, even though they're not willing to say

which way they're leaning, the vibe of the room in the NBA seems to be leaning toward Yokic. But I asked, do you think that John Morant, and to a certain extent, DeMardo Rosen, are kind of being discounted in this race

in part because there's surprises this year? Is it because there's surprises, though, or is it the fact that they've come on strong at different stages in this? season, right? Like with Damar has been really good all year long, but really shifted into high gear in February. Like there's a big recency thing with Damar de Rosen for sure, not that he wasn't already very good. Jha was playing at probably an all-NBA level before he went out of the lineup and then he really hit a different supernova level in the new year. So I feel like these are

kind of recent developments as far as those two guys being MVP candidates. They were absolutely, you know, were the all-stars, worthy all-NBA discussion. But MVP, like top three, top four, getting on the ballot, that's new for those guys, I think. Yeah, I don't think that we can kind of discount how difficult it is to play at that level. The consistency is the thing that separates good players from stars or bad players from good players. Consistency is the thing because you'll have one-off games where guys will go crazy and we'll be like, hey, good for you, pat on the back. But then it's like, it's sort of the warm bathwater thing where it's like we just get so used to it being a certain temperature with

some players that we forget how good they actually are. So it's like for guys to kind of put together this consistency, I think that, you know, for Moran, Moran is kind of exceeding, Sharks and I talked about this yesterday on Upside High. Go check that out. It's another show on the feet. But we were just saying that, you know, he has exceeded, I think even some optimistic evaluations of him that were coming into the league.

And the consistency has been the thing that has made us. like continue to be like, oh, like, no, this actually is for real. So I think it has an inevitable kind of escalation as a result of them continuing to be consistent. It's a great question, though, like how much of it is our kind of anchored bias of figure, like we think John Moran is a particular kind of player. We think to Martin is a specific level of player. Historically, we are slow to adapt on stuff like that. And so I definitely think it's a worthy thing to wonder, especially as you're filling out the latter half of your ballot. and you're weighing, you know, Jha versus Luca versus LeBron versus, you know, CP,

whoever you want to throw into that conversation, it gets thorny. And you do have to investigate your own internal monologue over the course of the season a little bit to figure out where these guys really land. Yeah, I think a lot of times we want guys to earn it first, right? You want to see it in the playoffs before you really meet them as on the level of a top 10, top 25 sort of guy. But like, I'm just looking at the statistical resumes. And there's just like, you're splitting hairs at this point.

There's like, if we're talking about the top four, which like for me personally, I think you guys might agree would be Yokic and be DeRosen, Morant. And we can talk about anybody else you want to throw in there. But like, I look at this and it's really like, you know, they're all scoring in the high 20s. You know, Yokic is obviously dishing out more assist than some of the other guys. And like they're all, their teams are winning all on the same level. And it's just like not to get too meta too quickly here, but it's almost like we know so much nowadays that you can make the case for anybody, especially with advanced analytics and like maybe. be the misuse of advanced numbers here. And it's just like, it's kind of a pick your preference at this point. And I just, I feel like it would be, you know, I feel like we need to like give Morant and Drozen a little bit more credit. It almost feels like. So you're saying your brain is just like vibrating with all of the information. It is internalized over the last four months that you've achieved a higher level of seeing through the data to the truth of this thing. Yeah, that's why I bring it to this high counsel to really like help me through to guide me through the these tough moments when we're trying to pick out the early MVP winner um kyle just in terms of like your look on the race

like is it those four guys would you bring in anybody else um i mean there's such a distance between the top two i think we've had just kind of ups and downs like luke obviously lately has been phenomenal he's just been outrageously good um and then but you know yonness i think is is in there too where Janus has been pretty terrific throughout the year. That's another one where, like, the ups and downs of Janus's last four years in terms of are penalizing him based on that, because the two things are linked together. You know, if it was just a regular season award, I think we would maybe, it's just not, because we penalize guys for what they do. I remember when we were doing, I know we're working on our, like, top players list right now.

I don't know if I should have spoiled or leaked that, but. Tease it. Yeah, we were just thinking about Janus last. And I just remember he got dinged really hard for what had happened in the playoffs and I think that those things are just kind of connected Regardless of what we say or do they are so but I would throw yonnes in there and like if you're talking about recently I think Luca I guess LeBron's kind of the person that always just hovers in this conversation. He's inevitable like Thanos I guess but I mean I guess we're going to talk more about LeBron. I don't want to jump ahead but yeah those are other two guys that I would just throw in off on my head. Yeah, I I don't think Janice is just like in the conversation in that capacity. I think he's a top three candidate.

For me, it's Embed and Yokic and Janus and then a jump. And then it's, okay, our Jha and DeRosen and these other guys getting into this mix in a different way. Can they elevate past that barrier is my big question for the latter stages of the season. Interesting. So what differentiates the first group with the other two guys? I mean, I think you have to go case by case a little bit. So like, for example, let's look at Janus versus. Derozen. Those are two guys who Yannis replicates or eclipses pretty much all of Derozen's production.

So if you want to make a statistical case, it's kind of hard to start there. And then you have Janus who might be the defensive player of the year this season. And D'Amar is a guy who you have to hide. And so while D'Mar has been great, and I just don't think it's an insult to say that he's not quite on the level of Janus, a two-time MVP and reigning champion, you know? I think consistently MVP candidate's going forward. I mean, it's been this way in the past, but like it's also I just wanted to say it's pretty wild that we have these three basically center type bodies that are entering still not even entering like the 20 like 28 is typically seen like 28, 29 is seen as like the prime range for these guys these size. And we have all three of them, all three international players. I made this point in our like all star exit survey.

I had to zoom out for a second. going to be like, this is like, we talk all the time about how this is like a modern, like, smaller league, but like, what a crazy time for centers, just as an aside. But yeah, Janice, I mean, I think the two-way aspect of it, Yokic actually has like gained a lot of credibility as a two-way player as of late. If you look at something like the defensive, I hate defensive catch-all metrics because they're really misleading, but I'll go ahead and quote one. I think that he's, he's actually kind of come to the top of the league and some of like the defensive

like Raptor ratings, which are, which are interesting. And I mean, I don't think that that's just like a total whiff. It's an indicator of something, whether it's an indicator of like separation between those guys. I mean, no, he's not the defender that Janus is or switchable. But I think the fact that these guys are like two-way players, they're offensive hubs that like carry, not only score their own offense, but they like distribute and things. I think that's a clear separator from a guy like DeRosen who I have a lot of respect for. I mean, real Hooper. Can we agree on that? But I think that's the separator. If you're not a separateer, if you're not a offensive hub and you can be a two-way player. I mean, that's, that's just an enormous

differentiator for me. This is bullshit, but it helps my argument is like the foundation for all of sports journalism. So we'll accept that here. Yeah, no, I mean, it seems like the conversation we're circling is how much do you give a little bit of a boost to the guys who are doing it on defense? And obviously, Moran isn't going to contribute much on that and Derozen isn't as well. With the honest, though, Rob, I'm curious, just individually, yeah, all the metrics, suggest that he's still awesome on defense. But like, how much do we start knocking him for team success overall and defensive success as a team?

Because they are 13th in the league. They're not a particularly good overall defense this year. The box I'm talking about, obviously. Well, it depends on how you accredit that stuff. Like, do we think that the reason the bucks are worse on defense is because of anything that is Janus's fault? And I think the answer to that is no. It's they don't have Brooke Lopez, is they don't have a, they have a differently shaped team.

is they've had guys in and out of the lineup with injuries. That's the reality of their situation. And Janus is the seven-foot total anomaly propping up that operation, not what's failing at ultimately. The team's success thing is interesting because we have these very different perspectives of what the Milwaukee Bucks season has been and what the Chicago Bulls season has been based on our kind of anchoring biases again for what those teams were supposed to be. They are two games apart.

I just have a hard time getting, you know, my feathers ruffled over the bucks being two games worse than the Bulls. If we're talking about rewarding Demar de Rosen for the success of his team, which, again, has been incredible. What he's been able to do in that situation has been incredible. I don't want to turn this MVP debate into, oh, we have to discredit some of the best players in the leagues to elevate the other best players in leagues. That's ridiculous. It's just like we're talking about Janus. We're talking about a guy who can drop a 50 piece in an elimination game. Demardo Rosen's really good, but he's not that.

And it goes back to the like you can't disconnect the postseason from the regular season because the bucks are in a run now going back to, you know, 2018, I guess was when they started making like serious playoff runs and were like fantastic, you know, running like the perfect lap, like whatever it is, the Ford versus Ferrari thing. You know, they were like really setting out to make a statement in the regular season. And, you know, they did that a couple times and hit a while. wall in the playoffs. Well, it's like they got over that hump. They've had several years in a row now of playing like lots of games in calendar years. And it's it's like, okay, yeah, they're behind

Chicago. Okay. That's just like, that's what like repeat championship teams do. They have to kind of, you can't go balls to the wall constantly year after year after year. It's like I'm willing to give them a little bit of slack, you know, on that front for that for that reason, I think. And like what Rob said is true. Like their inconsistency in terms of, you know, of Janice's defensive kind of interaction with a defensive anchor is really important to their defense because he's so good and so switchable that it's nice to have that rim protector to come in there and to kind of clean up. Do you remember from like arrested development? There was this part where like anytime the cops would show up, there'd be a dog pile. And then there'd be one person who would come in after the dog pile with the Billy Club. I was like, that's kind of like what the Buck's defense is like. It's like, okay, it's like they're going to stop you. But then they have this big. who's going to swoop in after Janus has made like a crazy great defensive positional play and hit them with the, hit them with the Billy Club at the end of the possession. And they've lacked that.

And I think that's made a big difference. Yeah. See, this brings me back to Marant, though, because what we're saying is we're giving Janus and the Bucks credit for their past success, where this is a award about the regular season. And I just look at the standings here. It's like at a certain point, like, I do think this has to matter a good deal in the conversation. where the Grizzlies are 43 and 20 right now. They're now a half a game behind the Warriors for second best record in the West and the second

best record in the NBA. Like how much, like, shouldn't we be applauding that and the best player on that team rather than like giving Janus the credit for saving himself for the bigger goal at the end of this big race, right? To clarify, this is not a lifetime achievement aboard. Janus is averaging 29, 11, and 6. I think even if we remove the playoffs from your memory, just look at what their play has been this season.

Janus has been better than John Morant. That's not a narrative thing. That's not like, again, our past biases hovering over us. Janus is a better player. He's a two-way player. He is a dominant force on every single possession. John Morant is wonderful. But he's not 6-11 affecting the ball on both sides the way that Yonisniz.

this. He's just not. But offensively, I mean, I guess you kind of have to like grade on a curve here. We're not expecting Jean Morant to be a like destructive defensive force. He's playing the role that he's assigned to his individual team. It just so happens that he's like surrounded by a pretty good defensive team and Jaron Jackson and all those other guys. Like I would argue what he's doing, like just rises above what he's expected to do. And in some level, like that has to matter. It does matter. And it'll get. you first team all NBA guard. But like if you're,

if you're grading guys relative to their role, like let's get Robert Williams into the MVP conversation. Right. I just think Morant's offensive, like just repertoire, his bag,

as the kids say, is just one of the most unbelievable things in the league right now. Just the craftiness he's displaying at the rim is like prime kairi. And like just, just seeing that,

I feel like that's as much of a thing you have to game plan against as you do for everything that Yannis has to do. Everything like he's going to do just physically and on the defense of it. I don't know. I feel like that is ultimately perhaps the biggest barometer is like what do teams have to game plans against? And I think you have to really, really, really worry about John Moran because if you're just having Yaakov Jopertel guard him on the perimeter, like you're going to get 50 dropped on you. And I think some of this is stylistic like the way the regular season games are played. I think that in a playoff series, you know, of course, Janus and Jha kind of run up against similar things. It's interesting what you were saying just about like entering in like aesthetics and like his appeal.

Was I was I hearing you correctly on that? Just like that almost sounded like should we have like a pop movie in the Oscars type thing? I don't know. If you're looking at like what Janus does as it applies to winning, I mean like Rob said, I think it's just wider spanning. like it sucks that we get in these situations where we're like, well, it's not Morant. Therefore, Morant has to, you know, sit on the trap door that falls to hell. Like, we just, we hate him now. It's like, no, it's like, Morant's fantastic.

He's been unbelievable. But, yeah, I think Janice is like the range of his impact is just, it's phenomenal. Like, and I agree that I don't think that there's, I don't think that we're suffering from lifetime achievement. I think that we do have to factor that in whenever we're looking at what the team's doing. I think it's just like, I don't know, this lives in. the space between like not we're not going to like overly penalize his team for what they're doing but we're also giving credit to these other teams for what they're doing and it just kind of falls

in the space between and then we and then we measure them i don't know it's it's it's complicated it is it's just really complicated thank you for opening my mind to the fact that john morant is the NBA spider man no way home incredible incredible incredible he is kind of spider man too like in a way you know bendy flies around yeah so rob who do you have at the top of your list if you have Those three bigs, Yokic, Embed, Yonis. Do you have Yonis one? No. I increasingly find myself falling into the Yokic category here.

And some of it is just like, for me, it's really Yokch and Embed, and Yonis is kind of the third guy in that conversation. And when you start comparing Yokch and Embed specifically, when you stack up their cases side by side, I feel Embed getting boxed out because Yonis has been a more efficient player this season. Much more efficient on two's, all the big man stuff for starters in part because he's been, he's having one of the most efficient two-point shooting seasons ever.

He's just as good as Embed from three for as good as Embedd has been from that range. And for as much as Embedd has improved as a passer, you're comparing him to the best passing big man we've ever seen. And so if Embed were head and shoulders better defensively, if the Sixers were dramatically better than the Nuggets, I could see the case.

But Yokic has been the most comprehensive shot creator in the NBA all season long. That counts for me. And what, like, again, the edges over and bead are where that conversation starts to tilt. I think it's difficult, too, to, when we go into these conversations, we always have to kind of agree to, like, a shared philosophy of what is valuable.

And it's like, yes. Like, if you just look at, like, total balance of, like, shot creation, like Rob said, Rob said all those things, and it's like, that makes total sense. But really, I was thinking today about, like, We do like to think of basketball in this idealistic way where it's like, yes, you score and you pass, and this is the correct way to do it. But it's like at the end of the day, if the ball goes in the basket, you know, that's like, that is the goal. And it's like, did we really penalize and Bede for being such an incredible foul generator, for being such an incredible, like, just powerful presence?

And it got me thinking about like the 2002 Kings Lakers series where we all year people praised that King's team for being like, it was like, ball movement. This is fun. This is the way it should be done. and then they get into the playoffs and the Lakers, another team, who were like kind of laying around just like, okay, now we got to get up. They were the lazy lion in the cage. Like, now we got to get up and hunt. And then Shaq averages like 35 points and just puts them in the basket.

It's like, at the end of the day, I'm just like posing this to you guys. It's like, do you think that we should, should we have like a shared philosophy about this? Does it matter? Or, you know, in that dynamic between Embed, is MP, is Embed's so good or good enough at what he does that he could ever overcome, like, the balance and the widespreadness of what Yokic does, like, if that makes sense. The shared philosophy thing, I just think is interesting. He's absolutely good enough.

There's no question about that. Like, Embedd would be a totally worthy winner. But when you're talking about, like, again, the aggregate impact of that kind of scoring that you're talking about, the fact that he can score on pretty much anyone, that he can get buckets, they can get free throws on pretty much anyone. that should show in the team's offense when he's on the floor, for example. And the Nuggets are a better offensive team when Yokic is on the floor than the sixers are with Embed. And I would like to read for you the players who have played with Nicola Yokic the most this season

because they are Aaron Gordon, Monti Morris, Will Barton, Jeff Green, Austin Rivers, Faku Campazo. There is not a Tyrese-Mexe-level player in the bunch there, much less, you know, Tobias Harris, much less now going forward James Hardin. Hasohaz coming after Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah, but I mean, it's not like Maxis on the level of

of like Kyrie Irving. You know, it's not like he was playing with a big three while Yokas was just toiling with like the first LeBron era calves. But you know who he ain't? And I say this with all due respect is Jeff Green. Like, this is the reality of what the Nuggets day-to-day life is.

And that's a team that's on a 48-win pace. That's an MVP. At least an MVP level season, if you want to give it to them or not. I think this is where it almost becomes a race to diminish the other best player supporting cast. And it becomes a really weird conversation. It's almost like you want them to play with good teammates, but not great teammates. Yeah. And I think this gets increasingly complicated for Mbid from this point going forward because now he is playing with

James Harden, a recent MVP winner. I do wonder how much we're going to start to diminish whatever Mbid does, especially if stylistically, it's going to be an absolute slog for everyone who tunes in. How much does Embed kind of sacrifice the MVP in order to be a bigger factor in the title race? I don't know how much his numbers are actually going to take a hit. I was going to say, like, if you compared, I wanted to say something about Yokic too, that he's plus 22.5, which is even higher than last year. So, I mean, that's pretty impressive. But I also was curious, like, what would happen if these guys switch teams like what what would what would what would the nuggets look like with mb i mean that's a

question there's a lot of stuff wrapped up in that i mean you you make roster decisions based on what you have but i feel like you could i'm going to talk out of two sides both sides of my mouth here i know that like the philosophy thing i i think that like total impact on winning total impact um on on creating shots good shots and then being able to score in a variety of different ways i mean yokitch is one of the most skilled players on the planet, regardless of size right now. And I think that you could plug him into any team in the world. He's one of those just people that adjusts value.

LeBron has been like this at different times in his career where you can just plug any piece into them and their previous value is bumped up just by playing with him because he enables people that much. So he's number one for me right now. Well, I do want to talk about the Sixers here quickly, just before we move on, just in terms of what you've seen,

thus far, Rob. Does it seem like Embed is going to be fed as much as he has in before Harden days? Or do you think things are going to change from him? Fed is an interesting word because I think there's less direct... For Hardin specifically? Well, no.

There's less direct spoon feeding, right? There's less put Embed on the block. Let's just feed him and feed him and feed him and space out to the best degree we can. There's going to be less of that just by virtue of what they have now. But he's still going to get a ton of time. touches. Still going to get a ton of rolls. Still going to get a ton of easy baskets, deep catches.

You know, we saw even cases where he wasn't the screener for Harden, he was just kind of like ducking in and transition and getting free throws, getting layups out of those situations. So I think we're going to see, as Kyle O2, numbers that are pretty comparable from what we've seen so far, maybe different in some ways, maybe his efficiency ticks up, maybe his free throw attempts, fluctuate. But ultimately, I think he's going to be putting up MVP numbers either way and it's going to be as dominant as ever, just because the quality of the passes coming to him are, I mean, it's jumped exponentially with Hardens' arrival.

It's always hard within the first sample size. I think you have to put like a big asterisk next to it because teams obviously need to regroup and think about it. But when you blindside them with something like the Sixers, it's a very rare moment in basketball to have two forces join up like that in the middle of a season like this. But I think that the point that Rob made was good about the fact that Embed has, based on roster construction, I think Simmons played into some of this in the past, Ben Simmons, that he was always sort of being fed and then like the offense was sort of rippling out from there. But the fact that we're seeing him, I think we were stupid to think that he was incapable of rolling.

I mean, he's one of the most graceful athletic guys for his size ever. So I don't know. I just saw some of that out there. I was even guilty of wondering. but if he was capable of doing that. But the fact that we're seeing him sort of, even the duck ends, like Rob mentioned, where another play is going on,

like harden commands that much gravity. So then you have like Embedd operating in these situations where he's not the focus and then still giving you all those like intangible things like his passing, which won't be as moving from like a stagnant, like catching it double comes, things like that. Those things are probably going to be improved

because he's never played with another player this good that space is like this. it's kind of it's just terrifying honestly is my point it's terrifying to think of what imbid is going to be doing now from this different sort of offensive flow and i made the point that like he and hardens separately rob and i were joking about this i had this stat that i was just dying to pop off about that they play they both play slow um they both play the highest percent like in the league second spectrum measures i've been on a big like speed kick lately not like taking speed i'm thinking about it, but the, I have an 18 month old. I'm thinking about speed, so we'll see. But no,

it's like, they track, like, what percentage of your time do you spend playing slow, medium, and fast? And in the league, the players that have spent the most of their time playing slow is Embed and Harden, and they're playing together. But, you know, together, their, like, powers combined, it just creates something, I've been just mesmerized by it, honestly. It's been really, really fascinating. I thought I would hate it. But, But I'm really, it's got to be daunting to think about defending them in a playoff series is my overall point. Yeah, to really answer your question, Justin, you have to feed and be less, but you put

out the spread and just let him graze all day at his leisure, you know? He's going to eat one way or another. We've got a full substation, but we're also in like a field, I guess. Right, right. Yeah, no, it's been devastating watching them together. I guess both for other opponents and also as a watcher. Oh, come on. These games are going to be four hours long.

But like, I guess this is Mori's fever dream, right? This is like literally watching someone play blackjack. And you just have two of the best card counters in the league just going after. And it's like it's going to be effective. It's going to be very, very effective. But I don't know. It's just it definitely takes a certain type of fan to love this. You're saying Philly scientists, we're so.

preoccupied with whether they could do this. They didn't stop to think whether they should. Right. I mean, Hardin seems to be on his best behavior right now. He seems particularly deferential. And you see just like the power of that. Like I think you forget just considering all of the stepbacks and all of like the dramatics that led to his ouster in Brooklyn, like how awesome of a passer he is and like how good he is just as like a pure point guard and just having that guy set up and being able to play off of him. and shoot off the catch and do everything he does off of another player.

Like, it's going to be effective. I never worried about the fit. Like, I think at this point, we've had enough superstar pairings or big threes to realize that really great players figure something out. I do worry down the road when Hardin isn't playing for his next contract and, like, like, a full 82 game season where it's like the interpersonal stuff probably matters more. Like, let's see. But for now, it seems like this is going to work.

work. And I mean, we're getting off track from MVP, but I am curious what you guys are thinking, Rob, like, do you think, like, the Sixers are automatically in the top, top tier of the title race at this point? I think we need a little more time just to see how some of this stuff susses out and, like, the synergies between

those two guys and Maxi, who's been really great off the ball, attacking out of the corners. He's fit really well alongside Harden so far. But I'm very curious to see how their games continue to amplify each other. And the free throw thing is part of that. We've seen Hardin in the past. Whenever he's paired with another star,

really, and especially a free throw drawing star, there's just a synergy there where those guys are getting into the bonus so quickly. We saw it with Dwight Howard, we saw it with Chris Paul, just like the ability to help each other in that particular way. And now it's almost reversed, where before it was like Hardin was able to draw so many fouls on the perimeter earlier in his career by just ripping through guys, he could help his teammates get to the line later in the bonus. Now it's almost the opposite where Embeddead gets called for so many non or get so many non shooting fouls as a big man just like by the virtue of the way the bigs are officiated in the NBA that hardened driving and getting more fouls is going

to help imbid get to the line even more on those quote unquote non shooting fouls they are going to be stylistically incredibly rigid to play in a playoff series because if you come into a series against them thinking we're going to dictate style the fouls really disrupt that i mean that's an underrated thing about the stoppages in play and then you think about okay we'll get a them out like the viper and the mountain and Game of Thrones. We'll get them out in the open. We'll move them around. And, you know, I went into a Kentucky accent there. I don't know why. But I think that they're going to, they're going to just be so difficult to stylistically impose your will on because of their physicality, because of the ripple effect that the like polarity

between those two stars is going to work really well, as we've already seen. But they're going to be able to get into a set defense. I think defense is kind of a question, I guess, like guarding the ball. things like that are going to be questions for them. But, you know, Thibel obviously still there. But Maxie, I think, has room to improve as like an on-ball defender. I'm getting sidetracked there. But I think that stylistically, they're going to be a big pain in the ass. I think that it depends on what you think, like, the tier implies.

I guess it could be anywhere from like two to however many. I mean, I think that they're in the conversation. Yeah, absolutely I do. Yeah, it is funny that the rap on Hardin is that like maybe he doesn't get the calls in the playoffs. And what does he do at that point? and Mori's response was to double down on that. And it's just like, just try not to call it on both of these guys,

especially when one guy is like 7-1 and like 200, whatever pounds and like is going to just bump into guys and get 20 free throws based on that. I'm glad he brought up Maxie though, because he's just like, not only from like just a playing standpoint, just seems like a shot in the arm. Like the type of good vibes guy you need on a team

when two like giant ego superstars are kind of coming together. really like Mario Chalmers in Miami vibes if everybody actually liked Mario Chalmers and it wasn't that they all ragged on him so much that that brought them together. It just seems like Maxi's the guy that connects everybody. He's more important than I thought he would be because I thought he would fall more into an ancillary role

with those two guys. Well, he's found a good balance so far between taking the threes that he gets because he's been a 40% three-point shooter this season and then attacking out of those very quick reality. acting spots when the defense is closing on you. And honestly, Hardin hasn't played with a lot of those guys. You know, there's been a lot of cases where the players you put around him are spacers or quick shooters who can beat that close, but not a lot of guys who are attacking,

which is what made like Eric Gordon so valuable in Houston, for example. And so Maxie seems to be tapping into that, but he's much younger, he's much faster, very explosive going to the basket, has a nice, like, floater, mid-range kind of combination game. I think he could find a really nice lane here. that alleviates a lot of his limitations as a playmaker. He doesn't have to be that guy running the show for you. He just gets to be dynamic as hell in a supporting role, which is exactly where he should be right now.

That's the bingo right there, is that the question that was dictating, you know, Max, the question about Maxie coming into the league, and it has been, like, throughout his development, is like, okay, can this guy transition into a primary role? And he's always been a little more score first. It's like if he's going to be on ball. The good thing is that, like,

during that time before Harden came, he got some of those reps, which were great for him. I think it's going to be a good experience for him. You're smiling. I don't know why you're making me nervous. We talked about a young player, and I could just see the light in your eyes. Just flash. Let Daddy cook. No, I think that, like, Maxey's a guy I've watched for a while, obviously. So it's like shifting, like what Rob says, true, I think, shifting him into a role where he's operating off of two guys with like immense gravity. Great athletes in the NBA, if they can play with stars and like, and have like that kind of kinetic energy like that.

Dealing with Maxie off the catch when you're like in the gap trying to help off of like James or Joel, he's that much more annoying. And you take the pressure off of that kind of developmental question of like can he be a primary guy in small doses? Yeah, I still think he can, but you're not going to be depending on him. It's a great situation for him. I think that he's the type of player. This is the type of situation that works for his player type, the best, I think, playing off

of stars like this. So do we have Maxie fourth or fourth? VIII MVP. Right. I had him third. Flirting with third, yeah. Blurting with third, I think. Let's talk about De Rosen,

because we didn't really talk about him much. Where does he factor in for you, Rob, on your master list? The reason DeRosen gets really interesting, especially when you... No, no, no. Especially when you start... You're going to diminish him. Don't do it.

I'm actually not. Okay. Especially when you compare him to the bracket of guys that I'm thinking about, which is mostly Jha and Yannis is kind of where he is. When you look at a table, team like Milwaukee, by the numbers, Milwaukee is a better offense and defense than Chicago. They should have a better record than the Bulls by the numbers, but they don't. And the reason

they don't is DeMarter Rosen is because he's been so unbelievable in Crunch Time that he's bailed them out of games. They really shouldn't have won. And so if you want to attribute success to one player, crunch time is a very good way to do it, very clear, very obvious delineations, very easy to assign credit for who makes a game-winning shot. The problem is, like, how much credit do you want to put on the last three to four minutes of a game and how much do you want to put on the first 44? Again, D'Rosen's very good in those minutes, but if we're talking about that as his case, is it enough?

I think it's a really strong argument for him. I'm just not sure if it's enough to get him over some of these other guys, but he's been incredible and especially incredible in those situations. Yeah, I think the ability to take offensive potency like that and then like I call it gravity flipping, like the ability to share based on what you're providing. I think that's the threshold really between MVP and like all NBA. And, you know, all NBA, you know, there's how many 400 players in the NBA? It's nothing to sneeze at.

That's an incredible accomplishment. I think that, you know, the types of players that can do what we were talking about, like distribute and score at a high level efficiently, it's a rare thing. and those people deserve to win MVP. And I don't think that it's, I don't think that it means de Rosen isn't having the best career or the best season of his career.

He is. But to me, that's where the threshold is. And it doesn't quite cross it as incredible as he's been. His crawl into this conversation for me has not been from fifth into first or second. It's been from, is he going to be on the ballot to now, I think we're going to have a very hard time keeping him off of it.

He's been, he's been so good. He kind of has to be there at this point. which is not something I expected even two months ago. But his February, there just aren't that many guys in the league who have had an extended stretch like that at any point this season. Yeah, I think it's the closest we're going to get to Kobe in the modern NBA. Just like watching him out there, I know this is sacrilegious for a lot of people,

but just like the mid-range game, the post-ups, he's a little bit more physical probably than Kobe, but just like watching the footwork and watching him isolate on guys. It's just, it's mind-blowing sometimes what he's been able to do. And like, I do think there's something to give him credit for, like being able to have the success in an era where people are going away from this. He basically willed this style of play to being relevant yet again. I think that's a big credit to him.

I also was looking at second spectrum, Kyle. And in terms of isolation, I know. Drozen is best in isolation points per chance among the 20 players with 300 plus isolations, which is better than Kevin Durant. So he's literally the best isolation player. I do think there's something you have to give credit to you for the best player who can score one-on-one against anybody in the league. And, like, for that reason, he's definitely on my ballot, but I think you guys bring up some good examples of why he didn't. And it's really tough to make this case also, like, after the Bulls were kind of blitzed by the heat just the other night.

That's probably where the bigger context comes into play, right? Where it's like, yes, I do want to give Morant probably more credit to some other people. But, like, I do think if you're looking at the big scheme of the league, like, the Grizzlies probably have a good chance. if not, like, just a small chance of making the Western Conference finals. I don't see the Bulls at that point, especially because a lot of guys are hurt and whatnot. But, like, they're a good story for the regular season. I don't know if we start comparing them to some of these other teams. They're on that level.

Yeah, I think the Grizzlies have a significantly better chance of making the conference finals than the Bulls do, to whatever extent that matters in this conversation. But really, the reason why DeRosen and Jha and some of these other guys are getting into this conversation in a big way is specifically the top seeds in both conferences right now, the heat and the suns, there's just such diffusion of credit. They're such balanced teams. There's so many different stakeholders you could attribute their success to that they don't have a definitive MVP candidate.

And so then it's like, oh, well, now we're going to look at Yokic. We're going to look at Embed. We're going to look at some of these guys who are playing on teams seated from, you know, second and third all the way down to maybe sixth. It opens the conversation up in a big way that some years it's just slam shut. Some years, the warriors are on historic pace and Steph Curry is so good. There's not really a conversation to be. had this year there definitely is one.

Do we need to talk about Steph at all? We can get into some of these other guys to consider here. I mean, he was probably the runaway for the first two months and then all of a sudden just fell into a deep chasm where he's having the worst shooting season in his career. It's been brutal lately. I don't know if you guys saw the game against the wolves last night, but like things aren't going well. And I haven't heard a timeline on when Draymond's coming back and they desperately need him.

Yeah, I mean, he's been in. the lull. Last year, I mean, he was just so, like, stratospheric, just supernova incredible. This year just hasn't been able to do that. For this or that reason, I mean, Draymond and Dramond and Steph have a dynamic where they, they really need each other to, you know, to like, Draymond's ability to like, you know, make like we were talking yesterday on our show about like connected playmaking, like ball reversals, like timely, quick secondary passes. Steph just thrives on that kind of stuff. And without Draymond, it's like you can run the same offense. but, you know, the personnel does matter.

And I think that does impact him. And not to mention just, it makes his shots tougher. It just kind of ripples down the line. And, you know, he was hunting for the record there for a little bit. I don't think that that's totally the reason that this is going on. I think there's sort of an amalgam of reasons. But he definitely does need Draymond. It's just he hasn't been, he's been fantastic, but just not quite as fantastic.

Well, especially when you get into the other guys who could get into this conversation. Like, if we want to throw LeBron in there, which I think he, He's a, you know, has a decent case to get in on the back end of the ballot. And then Luca especially, who's just been sensational over the last month or so to the point where he might make a run at the John Morant, Demar de Rosen tier of players if he continues to, not even on this pace. That would be unreasonable to expect. But anywhere close to that, he could be in that, in that group. How about, how about Luca in the fourth quarter of that Lakers Mavericks last night, that game? Going out.

calling for the switch with LeBron. I was like, it was like when I was thinking about that once upon a time in Hollywood thing where they were like, yeah, that you need to have the show where you beat the star from before. I was like, he was like literally waving like bring me LeBron at Luca.

Good Lord, man. I mean, just the stones on that kid. Like he, and just going at him over and over and over again. And Lebron, what's funny is LeBron really likes to elevate his game when he goes against Luca.

I've noticed over the years that I just thought that was, Luca, Luca has that it thing where he just is just totally fearless against, against the best of the best. Yeah, I thought that was wild. Yeah,

he has the opposite, I guess, problem as Steph, where it's like he has such a slow start. Like, do we forget about the two or so months where we're like, everyone was talking about how much he needed to play into shape?

And, like, recognize the brilliance of, like, what he's doing. Basically, when they got rid of his most talented team and just surrounded him with a just a bunch of average guys to fill out like two lineups

worth. It's just like it's wild. And on the other side of that, like, part of LeBron's case, I think comes down to like the roles he's been willing to accept while all these injuries are occurring around him in particular playing center when they need him to desperately. And like when you see it there last night, it's just like, it's really hard to be like, oh my God, he's playing center on defense. Like what a sacrifice. And then seeing just like him just getting absolutely cooked on the ball. It's just like, maybe not anymore. I think you just made an argument for Luca, though,

which is the real MVP is the guy who enjoys this summer. Yeah, I'm not going to let it fuck my summer up, that whole thing. Yeah, I mean, it's like one of my friends made the point that my buddy Ben Taylor runs a site, but I have to credit him because I'm stealing this. He was saying that basically what Luca was doing was when he was, you know, heavier in the beginning of the season was like when you have the donut on the baseball bat, when you're like warming up in the batters box. He was like, and then he was a challenge.

So then he takes the donut off. And then he can really swing the bat is kind of the thing. You know, it was it was on purpose, as the point, I think. My conspiracy theory is he actually didn't thin out. He actually just grew facial hair. And as someone who knows that trick, who has facial hair, like respect. It's a move. You know?

It's just like, eat that extra ice cream because you got a little bit of patting there, my friend. I'll grow a beard. It's okay. I'll have this fried rice at 10 a.m. It's cool. It's called margin for error. No, but let's talk about LeBron just briefly here because, like, I mean, the stats are incredible. Like, even amongst this awful stretch where they've been six and 15 since January 7th,

and they haven't won back-to-back games in that stretch, which is now, like, what, two months, which is really, really brutal. He's 29, 9, and 6. And so it's like he's doing everything he can. And I think this is an extreme example of what we were talking about before. It's like, you know, a guy's individual. is what we're trying to recognize here. There's only so much we could do holding his team's failure against him.

I guess it's a little more complicated when you pick Russell Westbrook as you're running mate and the guy who's supposed to spell you when you want to sit. But like, I don't know. LeBron is still incredible, Rob. So like, should he be on this ballot? I mean, not executive of the year ballot. But this one, I think, is totally fair. I mean, he's, what he's been able to do.

at this stage in his career, 37 years old. And I mentioned earlier that Yokic is having one of the best two-point shooting seasons ever, high-volume two-point shooting seasons ever. LeBron, 37-year-old LeBron, not that far behind him, right up there with historical numbers inside the arc. And that's, for him, some transition play,

but a lot of turnaround jumpers, a lot of tough, tough shots against a lane that is clogged and a defense that is completely oriented to him because they sure as hell are not oriented. to Russell Westbrook right now. So what he's been able to do under those circumstances absolutely deserves mentioning recommendation, consideration for an

award like this one, for getting on the ballot for something like this. It's just going to be hard for him to be a serious contender with the Lakers, as bad as they are with some of the caveats in their performance that, again, are not really his fault. The story of the Lakers all season is which of these guys and which of these

lineups and which of these coaching decisions are failing LeBron, basically. He has been that good and is that deserving of that kind of framework. When he was younger, he athletically could like meld and sort of compensate for the shortcomings of his roster. I think the way he was able to play. And I think the age thing has to, it has to factor into this.

I mean, not in terms of like giving him a bump. Like, wow, good job, 37 year old. No, I mean, it's like, we have to kind of look at this in a vacuum. But like, he's just at a stage now where he is less able to do that stylistically. And I think the absence of or just, you know, Anthony, Davis, my guy, has just not, even when he's been there, has been frustrating, and he just hasn't been there lately. And I think he's at the point where he actually needs someone else to pull a little more weight for his impact to kind of be more substantial. He can rack those counting

stats up all day. It's just, I think, in terms of like impacting winning the stage of the career of his career that he's at, he really needs it. He needs that other star more than ever. And, you know, Davis just not being there, I think, is a huge part of this. I mean, obviously, Do you guys buy into the narrative at all that he is, he racks up some of those counting stats in minutes that don't exactly matter. I've seen, I've seen some critics. Have you looked at this? I haven't looked at this.

I haven't really dug deep into it. I've more heard, you know, you get the occasional message. You see some stuff going around about like, oh, it's the fourth quarter. The Lakers are down 18 points. Of course, LeBron's going to have a big first eight minutes of the fourth quarter before he gets pulled. It's just kind of the way the rhythm of some of these games has gone. I don't know that I care one way or another, to be honest with you. Again, it's like the shortcomings of the team are not his fault.

We know he can put up numbers. We know he can be incredibly productive. His effect is he is the only thing keeping that team from sinking to the very bottom of the ocean. I have a hard time being swayed by something like that, to be honest with you. I mean, LeBron can sit up a jungle gym on the court for the last five minutes and just like have himself a little party. Like, he could do whatever he wants.

It's like we should not be knocking the little bit. Ron for the Lakers issues here, which is a good segue because I do want to talk about the Lakers as a whole just very quickly because as we're recording coming off of what. Must we, Justin. Yeah, no, because it's just too delicious. I think this is what, third trait loss coming out of the all-star break and Russ looks somehow worse than ever before. It's really, really bad. I know like there's been a lot of talk of Russ accepting kind of like a Dremont role, the ringer in particular has been driving this bus. But like, I'm watching and I'm like,

Russ isn't even Draymond on offense, man. He's just like walking into these pull-up jumpers and they're just completely off the mark. He was five for 17 last night. And 0-4 from three, only taking two free throws, like not even getting to the line in order to generate some easy bucket.

So it's like he's clearly on tilt. He's talking about it in post-King press conferences where he's just like he doesn't know what's wrong, but it's on him. And like, it's getting sad at this. point, Kyle. And so I almost wonder, like, would it be better just like not playing him if only for like a week or two just to get him like back on track? I don't know about like they're not playing him. I mean, it's just going to be such a massive story. If you don't, obviously. But then, you know, there's, they don't really have many options either. It's like you either, I think rolling the dice and hoping that he can, that he can return to some semblance of form. I never enjoyed the, the semblance of form in the past. So it's not a win for me either way.

But I think that there is a difference between playing, like, skill development and playing on the ball and offense is either you're scoring or you're passing to somebody else. There's a difference between that and playing off the catch and making those little passes because you have to kind of do the other things. And you also have to do those other things like, you know, you have to pull defenders towards you as like a credible shooter, which he is not. He's like the worst volume three point shooter, the most parroted stat of the past 10 years maybe. but you just think he just hasn't been able to

to assume that someone could jump into the Draymond role and be that sort of fulcrum playmaker is to, you know, Draymond's able to do that because he's so efficient at like knowing what are his shots. That is just famously Russ's thing. He just doesn't know what his shots are. So in order to have a high impact like that, I just don't think he's going to be able to do it.

And I don't think they ever should have traded him to begin with. When I saw the trade, I was horrified. And we talk about, like, is LeBron responsible for the offense? Man, he can't help it. He's on this crappy, I mean, on some level, based on what you hear. I mean, is he not kind of responsible for the situation he's in? I ask you guys. Jeannie Bus says yes.

definitively. Let's talk about that Dremont role thing for a second, though, because Kyle, I think you zeroed it on something that's pretty important about whether players can really adapt into that space if they haven't done it for the majority of their career, which I think even that question probably glosses over the fact that Draymond Green is like a 99th percentile NBA history

processor of basketball in terms of what is happening on the floor asking anyone to be him is unfair. Unfair to the role in the circumstance. We can say, oh, this guy could be a short role playmaker for us. He can do some of these things. He could be a Draymont in some capacity. But even if we're just

talking about offense, Draymond's worst side of the ball by far. What he sees on the floor is different that almost anybody out there. And the contrast with Russell Westbrook could not be more stark, as Kyle laid out. Yeah, that was the thing that jumped out at me last night. Like, he's been off the mark with his jump shot for a very long time. But some of the passes were just dumb. Like, he was just doing things. I'm just like, what is going on here? He's almost like he's on tilt. And the post game press conference kind of alludes to it where he's just like, maybe he's just in a bad space at this point. But I don't know.

Yeah, I never figured that would be something that you would be overly concerned with with Russ. There's just so many things that come before that. You're like, oh, at the very least, you know, you can make a couple of nice passes a game. But like, it was brutal. But not all passing is created equal. I think that's something that we get into too easily.

It's like there's guys like LeBron, guys like Yokic. They can pass from anywhere. Russell Westbrook for his entire career has trained himself going 100 miles an hour downhill, very good at finding his shooters, finding dump off passes, throwing it over his head to a trailing alleyup dunker behind him.

Very good at that stuff historically. But now you're asking him to pass from a completely different space on the floor in a lot of these situations, totally different context. Without the athleticism he used to have, the burst he used to have, he's not drawing defenses the way he used to.

He's not even playing the same game anymore, frankly, from the player he was earlier in his career and the circumstances from which he was passing. Yeah, and to be the type of passer that we're talking about, like to be that to utilize those like, you know, he talked about on the JJ Reddick podcast about like he was obsessed with ball reversals. You can see that. But in order to like capitalize on ball reversals and things like that,

you're going to need a roster, A, that has a lot of shooters, A, that has a lot of cutters, you're going to need to have a lot of movement. Well, they go out and sign a roster with dudes who are like all as old as men, I mean, it literally is like the same age as like my pickup group. It's like, so I'm just saying it's not a roster built with like movement and cutting in mind. So I think that all those things factor in. I think maybe ideally they thought, you know, in these stints where LeBron is sitting, like we were talking about Russ can come in and just kind of be a version of Russ in the past.

And the roster, it just isn't really even built for that. So it's all these things, they affect each other. It's inevitable. Kyle, are you like the Malik Monk of your pickup group? I could see that game for you. Um... Are you more like the Russell Westbrook of the pickup? I'm a shooter.

I've evolved into accepting that I can't, you know, just, you know, jack them up as consistently. But I like to shoot. Yeah, I'm a shooter for sure. Okay. Rob, what are you? I'm a little of everything. I'm an every man. I'm also a person who hasn't played deck of basketball in two years.

So we'll see when I get back out there. Right. Send us some tape. Yeah. All right. Let's wrap this here. So, Kyle, you want to run down, like, you're in your mind ballot early real quickly? Like, would you have Yokich one?

I believe you said. Yeah. I think I was just devil's advocate. Whatever you want to say, I call that for the discussion. I think it's just an interesting overall discussion in terms of philosophy. But for me personally, I really value, like, floor raising players that you could plug in any situation. And I value two-way impact a whole lot

because that's just, that's basketball. Hey, shocker, coaches do too. And I think Yokic is a really, really special player. So is Yonis. So is Embed. And, but I think that for my philosophy of basketball, like Yokic has just been incredible. And I think he's been special and he deserves it at this point.

That's my take. You heard it here first from Kyle Mann, John Morant, DeMarda Rosen, not special players. I'll just say this. Direct quote. If the Grizzlies get into two in the league with a bullet, I think this becomes a very, very interesting conversation.

And that's the way that this thing is trending. I right now would default to Yokic for a lot of the reasons that you guys have brought up here. It's funny, Zach Kram does this thing called Points Created, which he did in early January, which cobbles together a bunch of stats, including screen assist, which I have a little bit of a problem with. But that has typically forecasted who will, if not win, but definitely being the top two in MVP conversations. Yokic was one, Yanos was two.

And it's funny that you guys both kind of defaults to those two guys. I will say, though, I think Moran, if he continues on this heater that he's on right now, the Grizzlies end up to, like, I'm definitely going to be watching that very closely. I would put him at three right now behind Embed, but, you know, we'll see. Rob, where are you at?

I'm similar. I mean, I think we're all in the same general vat of, you know, swirling in the same vat of MVP. thoughts. I'm Yokic, Embed, Yonis. I'd probably put Jod at 4 for right now, DeRosen at 5, but those last few spots are malleable. They're quite flexible.

It's LeBron, it's Luca, those guys could get into it very easily. Unlike LeBron at age 37, unlike me at age 34, it is very flexible. All right, thank you to Jake Kyle Mann for joining us this week. You can catch him on upside high every Tuesday on the Ringer

NBA show. Yeah, every Tuesday. We talk about the youth movement and all that jazz for sure not much stuff about the actual Utah jazz but you know it's all that jazz there you go uh thank you to associate producer Isaiah Blakely we'll be back with was next week we'll see you next time