The Ringer NBA Show - An NBA Draftnik’s Guide to March Madness. Plus, Expansion Is Nigh. | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann start with their reactions to the news of NBA expansion to Seattle and Las Vegas almost becoming a reality. Then they get into our yearly March Madness primer. The guys take a look at the top prospects playing in the tournament this year, then Kyle talks about a few other guys to keep an eye on who could get picked in the first round.(00:00) Intro(6:08) Expansion news(16:02) March Madness primer(25:13) Darryn Peterson(37:34) Cam Boozer(44:18) AJ Dybantsa(54:42) Caleb Wilson(56:20) Kingston Flemings(59:23) Darius Acuff Jr.(01:07:15) Keaton Wagler(01:01:44) Other guys to watch(01:13:37) Mikel Brown Jr.Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle MannProducers: Victoria Valencia, Isaiah Blakely, and Cameron DinwiddieProduction Supervision: Ben Cruz and Conor NevinsAdditional Production Support: John Richter and Chris Wohlers Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Rob had Hollywood's biggest night last night, but we have Kyle's biggest night tonight because the NCAA tournament is a go. Kyle, are you just like brimming with excitement right now? I am. I mean, it's kind of a mixed bag, you know. I'm a little, I'm not excited about my team that I get excited to watch because I don't, you know, there's a kind of a bleak feeling over here. I don't know what that's all about, not optimistic. But overall, man, I have this policy that I say all the time that every team can make me happy. Any basketball can make me happy. And only one team has the right to make me sad.

And damn, and I'm not going to do it this year. I'm going to push through and I'm going to have a good time. So I think it's going to be a good one. So you sense the bleakness on the horizon. You're just rejecting it outright. You know, it's just been so up and down the vibes. We don't have to go into any specifics about it. So I don't know.

It's good to just kind of remove yourself from it because, like I said, when I'm just watching ball, I'm just happy. I just, I skate through everybody else's misery and I'm just, I win every time. I go to bed sick like a baby. That's what I always say. And being a fan is just, I feel like you guys are both kind of post fan, though. You really don't have any fan. Because I don't have any NBA fandom at all. I always said Justin just kind of betrays his roots and just became a Portlander in full.

Rob, you don't have any basketball fandom, do you? Like, none at all? I'm just a fan of the two of you. I'm just supporting your careers. I'm just rooting for your successes. This is all I'm invested in. Are you? Actually?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Why would I not be? I'm out here trying to raise the word of mouth around you, Justin. You know, like I'm by the water cooler. Are you? I'm out of the streets. I'm telling the people of Los Angeles all about your, you know, potentially eminent return.

Yeah. Well, just tell them all about my flannels and the vast array and variety that I have. It's nice. Completely. I'll say this. I am excited. Not necessarily for Yukon, who has had a good season this year. I ended up with the two seed. I guess I'll watch from afar. I'm actually more excited for the draft this year just because working with Kyle. I've got to experience like a little dribs and drabs here and there about some of these guys. I know more about them than before. And the draft class overall just seems so intriguing. And on top of that, we've done the bare minimum, Rob and I of scouting

in order to do this podcast. And I have convinced myself that upwards of 10 players are like legit and awesome. I mean, we're definitely at that stage of awareness where like you know just enough to think that you have a formed opinion

about something, but no reality checks against any of it. It really is. Podcasting 101. This is one of my favorite things about basketball in terms of just watching. Like, it gets to this core idea of how much is enough

to, if you have a trained sense for basketball players, How much is enough for you to perceive the essence of something? Because I've found that, I don't know, it makes me think about, I'll watch guys for hours and hours and hours and sometimes overthink something. And then sometimes I'll watch a guy for 15 minutes and then circle back at the end of my e-vail and be like, yeah, what I thought in the first 15 minutes was on the money. Scoot Henderson is an incredible example of that where I talk to friends all the time about like, I watch Scoot Henderson. I was just like, man, I got big problems with this. And then I thought and I thought and I thought.

And eventually I got to the point where I was like, you know, I talked myself into it. And that was the wrong thing to do. But then I was thinking about Rob, Justin, you don't do much pick up basketball, right? No, no. I'm just a English major waif over here. Just watching just like prestige television and magnolia pictures. Yeah. Well, I was just thinking about, Rob, in my experience, and you may have at some point gotten this.

Justin, where in your time, you know, frittering or just dabbling in pickup. I feel like I can watch a dude for just a couple of minutes, even in pickup, if I've never played with him. I can watch them move a little bit, how they kind of mess around and be like, okay, like, I can kind of, I don't know, what do you all think about that, that nature of just, like, really overthinking something versus just fly by seat of your pants? I do think it's a real thing. Like the level of detail and clarity of watching someone over an extended period, I think

is much better for scouting if we're talking about like, will this player's jump shot translate to the NBA? That's a real thing that you need like a level of detail and sophistication to analyze. But I'm with you, Kyle,

and I would actually shrink the time period. I think you can look at someone on a basketball court and within 15 seconds tell whether they know what they're doing or not. And certainly on a pickup court, you can tell like, did this guy play football

at any point in his life? Immediately very clear. Will he get me injured? Does he know how to move the ball? Those things are plainly apparent. But I thought that way, even with some of these scouting snapshots, it was so clear right off the bat that certain prospects have incredible feel. Like, that's the first thing that jumps out.

We watch some YouTube. Let's just be honest. No, no. That's what it is. Well, and synergy. But yeah. This would be fun to circle back to you, I think, for people if they dare care to do it later on and be like, oh, well, that was pretty on.

But I've been on both sides of this because I'm a bald guy with, who we used to play in glasses. I've benefited from people doing the quick look and they'd be like, and then I'm like, I'm going to light your ass up. But then I've also been on the other side of it where we're getting ready to check ball. And I remember specifically,

there was a dude who came up to guard me and I remember he did one of those. He jumped in the air and tucked his knees, like almost up to his chin, like just did a like, I'm getting loose jump. And I remember the internal feeling of just like, I am in serious trouble right now. Kyle puts those Rexbecks on

and it's a different game. Yeah. Anyway. All right, we'll get to the draft stuff later on. We're going to do a full-blown draft Nick's guide to March Madness. We'll talk through some of the big prospects there. Some lower-level guys that are going to be playing in the tournament. So you could follow along from an NBA POV.

But first, we've got to talk about a little news in the NBA. Good old NBA. Back into the expansion game. It seems like expansion is Nai Rob. We got Seattle. We got Las Vegas on deck. Seems like next week there's going to be meetings or maybe in two weeks. or maybe in two weeks, and they're going to vote on whether or not to add those two areas

specifically. Have you already started scouting out Vegas high rises in order to make your move there and to watch the Las Vegas degenerates? Justin, you already know I'm on top of it. You know, the restaurants are scouted. We're already set there. We just need a place to live. We just need a place to hang our hats ultimately.

And I think the NBA is much in the same place. Las Vegas and Seattle, like, these have been these spots for so long now. I would be shocked if this does not happen. I would be shocked if this isn't voted with overwhelming approval. The momentum has been building for so long. This is an inevitability at this point. I'm excited for Seattle. I'm excited for the potential for Las Vegas,

but more excited for Seattle just because it's three hours away from me. And so I could make the nice little trip there. And obviously Seattle has the history. And it's just as means meant so much. The fact that they've been able to maintain a fan base, despite the fact that there hasn't been a team for decades now, really mean something. And so that's great.

I'm also excited that we'll finally get probably a shift in conferences where I think like the Timberwolves or the Grizzlies have to move to the East Coast, which might help some people who have to stay up in certain hours in order to watch certain games. Overall, though, Kyle, I'm not looking forward to this. I don't think like the league is in such a good place that like we could just add two more teams. I don't know.

I just think there are much bigger issues at play here. The fact that, for instance, one third of the league doesn't give a shit for half the season. But I guess like, I guess the excitement bump, the like phone alert style of like, oh, this new thing is in front of me. This has to be great. Is something for the league. Yeah. I mean, like you were saying, it will be nice to see Memphis finally move to the east, which they absolutely should. And it's, it's interesting because Seattle and Vegas are both, I don't know, you're talking about adding. I don't know that they're going to dilute in terms of we're not adding cities that will fail to be desirable destinations.

I mean, people will want to, I don't understand why they would want to other than the good restaurants, but I feel like that appeal will wait, unless you're just looking forward to life out in like Summerland or wherever it is in Nevada, I think both of those cities will be like desirable, at least on some level. I don't really have a great memory of Seattle's like free agent destination, you know, desirability. But you were talking about them maintaining a fan base.

I don't see that as being such a huge feat for them because, I mean that as a compliment to them because the basketball culture, for them not to have a team, has been such a glaring hole in like the fabric of like American basketball period. Like Pacific Northwest basketball is incredibly rich, incredibly rich. I think it's one of the more underrated kind of areas of the country in that sense. So, man, you know, they haven't really, you know, University of Washington, Washington hasn't been great.

Gonzaga's been good. I guess that's been something for them to be excited about. But, man, I mean, I'm very excited for Sonics basketball. I'm all about their history and their vibe, their gear, everything. I'm very, very pumped to having them come back. I'm thrilled about it. And you're right, Gow, that it's like a greater metro concern to the point that Jamal Crawford might be, like, have his jersey retired as a Sonic

despite never playing for the Sonics. Like, it's just in the firmaments of so much of what's happening there. We've seen generation after generation of NBA players come out of Seattle. like it's great that we're getting back. It's great that we're getting another market within driving distance for JV. Everyone can be happy about this in their way. Yeah, I feel like if Jamal Crawford isn't a part of the ownership group, like get that like 1% of 1% of 1% of that team, at the very least he should be some sort of ambassador because he's been such a great asset for Seattle basketball overall

and he's been really good on the broadcast. And so that'd be good. He's got a gig for life, man. That's a gig for life. And can Katie make it to 2029? That's a question right there. I will also say, like, they, they've waited just enough time in order to leverage Portland in order for the public at large to pay for the arena and not the new incoming owner.

And I will have to say as a taxpayer here, that's fucking bullshit. And so, thanks, MBA for jacking my already outrageous taxes. But I'm glad to see these teams back. Well, while we're talking finances, does the price tag of this shock either of you? You know, the earliest reporting from Shams is that the buy-in in terms of the expansion fee is going to be between $7 and $10 billion. Granted, the Lakers just sold at a valuation of $10 billion. The Celtics just sold for a valuation of $6.1 billion.

For those who remember, when the Charlotte Bobcats opted into the league in 2004, that was $300 million to get into the NBA. Very different time, very different valuation landscape, very different market, frankly. but does $7 to $10 billion ring true to y'all as like, this is the buying rate, this is the asking rate for getting into the NBA? It's not my money. Who cares? It's less about are you so concerned about, you know,

whoever is going to be footing the bill for this and more, like, does a franchise in Seattle or Las Vegas strike you as the kind of franchise that will be worth $7 to $10 billion? Or is it simply, if you want the right, you have to pay more than value? Well, it's interesting because everything I've heard is that Vegas as a city isn't doing well because nobody leaves their house anymore. And so like that sort of economy that base entirely off of tourism and just like going out and being a degenerate, like that seems to be struggling. We can do that from home. We have that at home. Yeah, that's right. But I guess like the fact that they have added so many sports teams over the past decade is an indication that they probably are pivoting more toward a traditional city model than whatever they've been. Seattle, I think there's just so much. tech money floating around there. And as you've seen with a lot of these locations, it does matter about the institutional wealth of the surrounding area in order to support that in order to make sure that things are going. I would also say that Seattle just seems attractive overall as a city,

maybe not to NBA players, but in a way that it is just overall to young people that I think is unlike a lot of other markets. And so if they can compete, like, if they're attractive enough to be a free agent destination than some of these other places, I think it actually kind of like makes it a little bit easy and more interesting playing feel for free agency because we really have like four teams that have that advantage if we could break up the pile a little bit there might be a nice little trickle-down effect i think that's a great call i also love the idea of vegas pivoting to a traditional city model as it's been doing you know as you alluded to jambi some version of degeneracy or performance art for basically the entirety of its existence but now it's trying to be a real deal grown-up

pull-up your pants city what a time to be alive well you know the they've they've they've existed as a city in defiance of God. Like, you know that city shouldn't be there technically and like ecologically. So that's interesting. But no, I think there's an interesting thing going on where this is, you mentioned the money and the tech money and this stuff going on up there. I mean, it's granted, you can do that. You don't have to live in a place to get involved with those things.

But I just think it could be an interesting hot zone of opportunity for players. I feel like you hear more and more about that players being interested in investment type things. And then you're talking about just them being able to support. it and like the money side of it, I think you're going to have the built-in corporate stuff where I think that, you know, I think the software, you know, money is going to be pouring into the, into the franchise in terms of tickets. I think you're going to have that side of the, of the game-going stuff where you're entertaining clients and people have the money to do that

type of thing. And then you're balancing it with that crazy history of basketball love. I think those two things together are going to really, DMV is another example of this, you know, a lot of money, a lot of wealth, a lot of history. And they've kept it going, despite being awful, I think Seattle is going to be in good shape. I think it's going to work. Do you have any just quickly names for the Vegas team? Anything that you guys liked?

I think we might have thrown around blackjacks last year with the expansion draft. I do like the black jacks. The problem is like, I mean, Aces is already quite good. And so it's going to be hard to literally beat that in a card sense. But I don't know. Everything else is so corny to me. Yeah, I can't do it.

The shufflers? I don't know. What's I'm trying to think of the gamblers? Is that too on the nose for the NBA at this point? Yeah, we can't. Yeah. I don't think they would walk into that one, but maybe they should. No, they definitely wouldn't get in bed with gambling.

That's for sure. No, no, no, no. They play at the Kalshi Center. Yeah, we'll see. My question for the two of you is how many more mock expansion drafts are we going to do before 2028? How many more times can we, you know, ring the water out of this particular towel? brother, am I going to make it two weeks? Let's get through this season,

but before we start talking about two years from now, although I will say, that is way sooner than I expected. 2028, 2029 is when the projected dates are for these new teams. Like, I would have expected five years because these things just have such long rollouts.

True. Well, we've been a part of that rollout for a decade now. So I think we've been doing our due diligence for a while. I kind of want to be there. I don't know. It seems like it's going to be a fun event, like when they kick that thing back off.

A good vibe. A little Airbnb action. Just set out a little outpost. If I can get it approved, hey, I'll go. There you go. All right. Why don't we take a quick break? We come back.

We'll talk some draft. All right. It's that time of year where everybody in the NBA pretends to know about NBA draft fix. Kyle is already rocking and rolling. But Kyle, this is really your time. You've been doing this all year. Rob and I are just kind of moonlighting.

But this is a lifestyle for you. Yeah, man. I mean, it's not like I wouldn't be doing this all the time, even if it wasn't my job. That's what I always said. People ask me, they're like, you get sick of basketball? I'm like, no, I don't. I really enjoy it. So I am in the shadows, in the quiet.

I got all these sub-processes going on. You guys are just watching the NBA, and I'm just sitting back. I got eight screens going. I might have the Lakers next to Santa Clara or, you know, St. Mary's or whatever it is. God knows what. I've been watching college ball all year. But, yeah, it's nice to, like, finally bring some of this to the light and start to

figure out, you know, figure out who's going to go where and all that. Things I have learned today. Kyle, one, loves basketball. Two, because he loves basketball, always wins. It must be nice to have a liberated mind. Yeah, Rob and I are just out here second screening Hamnet with our NBA games. Kyle's on another level doing basketball on top of basketball on top of basketball. Sounds great.

Yeah. All right. We're going to go through all the top prospects playing in March Madness. So some of the guys aren't going to be there. Caleb Wilson's obviously hurt. We'll see about Michael Brown in Louisville. But, man, I feel good about just this collection of guys coming into a league right now. Kyle, it feels like especially in contrast to last year and definitely the year before that,

we're really just like digging into the craze to find some interesting guys. Like I have down here like 10 guys that like are pretty exciting. Definitely like variations within that. But if you got these guys if you're an NBA fan from one team specifically, the lottery. I'd feel pretty good about that. Does that feel right to you that there's depth in addition to kind of like a top heavy situation going with this draft? Yeah, I think there's a lot of depth, but I'd even push back a little bit. I mean, aside from like the Reed Rob draft, the 2024 that has had some misses in it, I feel like we've had a lot

of talent coming into the league. Like I, you know, lately I feel like we've had a few good draft, like last years in particular, these two drafts together, I think are going to be a huge bolster of talent, you know, even American talent. If you know, even American talent, if you know, you care about that. There's a lot of, there's a lot of good USA basketball stuff going on. But yeah, I think, yeah, this draft is going to join the group of the last few. Next year, we'll see that one might be down. But overall, I think we, over the past like five years, we've had a lot of good talent. I think this, this class is going to be a big part of that. So top three, tell us about like just like the top of this draft because we've heard so much about

the big three guys, Peterson, Boozer, DeBanza. Does it feel like a top three at this point months into the season? Is there one guy who has separated themselves? Is it a two? Like, how does this all shake out? At the beginning of the year, you know, it started out where we kind of had an idea. It used to be a foursome. We've talked a lot about that. But Cooper, Cooper is the same age as these guys. And they used to play each other. And he reclasses, obviously, and goes a year early to Duke. And then goes number one. But yeah, I mean, A.J. DeBanza is the guy who started early. He kind of jumped out in front. Everybody's like, wow, what a, what a crazy, lanky, you know, he's six foot nine. He can get to the basket. He's a smooth athlete. And then,

loves to score the ball. Then we saw Cam Boozer, who obviously, we know he is a twin brother, who also plays for Duke, who's not considered a lottery pick, but is a good player too. And is a point guard. Big height disparity between those two. That's an interesting thing that happens with twins sometime, I guess. But Cam is a guy who was a little quieter, a little more steady. He won throughout, basically won every competition, you know, whether it was international or high school or summer league, summer ball stuff with grassroots with EYBL. And then the guy who kind of surged, who was sort of on the outside of this group, but people would quietly, if you talk to scouts, they'd be like, I kind of think that Durham Peterson might be the best of

the three. That murmuring started to happen like, I don't know, a year and a half ago that I was hearing. and then the interesting thing is, you know, we get into the season and we're watching this unfold and we're trying to see, is it a solid tier? Can anybody pierce that top three? You did start to hear some grumbling, some mumblings from people as AJ's style of play, kind of got some scrutiny as Darren Peterson had problems. You started to hear people start to wonder if maybe Caleb Wilson was actually sneakily in the, if it was really a top four. or I've talked to some people who have who have Caleb ahead of AJ. We've heard some of that going on too.

Rob's smiling. I don't know why. But anyway, that's just kind of, that's where we started. I still think it's a solid top three, but there is a little bit dependent on who you talk to. There is a little bit of wiggle room that some people think that, that Caleb could be there.

I'm smiling at Parkhouse because my experience with college basketball is so divorced for the day-to-day happenings of what is going on across the sport, across the draft landscape, that you even describing the full take cycle with all of these guys feels like somebody telling me about the gossip at their workplace. I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, sure, I kind of know that guy and that tracks. I'm trying to put together why I like or dislike these players for the first time in the first place.

And so to hear that they've already endured, of course, like months, if not years of extreme scrutiny is obvious to me, but also just very funny to hear about for somebody who's just not plugged in on the stuff at all. Yeah, well, Rob is just the new guy at the office. He's just got fresh eyes. He's not in the dirt of any of the workplace drama, but he's just looking at this with a fresh perspective. And actually, Rob, I'm curious on your end, as someone coming from this, from more of an NBA

perspective, what do you think about the tournament overall? Like, do you put any weight on the tournament? Do you think we should put any weight on the tournament in terms of playing with stakes, with obviously bigger crowds and different road environments. Like, does it matter to you as an NBA scouting perspective to watch these guys in this situation? I think it is probably the biggest, loudest distraction in scouting. Okay.

Like, it's, and don't get me wrong, I'm compelled by winners, I'm compelled by guys who have all of these intangible qualities. But I think a lot of those qualities tend to come out over the course of entire seasons, if not entire careers. And so over-indexing on the one game that seems to be like a random dice roll of chance in a lot of senses in terms of how the bracket actually turns out, I feel like it would be a real misstep when you're talking about investing the future of your NBA team. And so, yeah, you take it as a data point. But even treating it as a bigger data point than what just happened in your conference tournament or what happened two months ago at the beginning of your regular season, I feel like that would be very tempting but also very misguided. Yeah. And on the other side, I mean, we do see examples, though, of players. I always call them, you know, Hello World games where guys basically seize the opportunity in a big moment against. A lot of times it's mid-majors who maybe have an NBA player on the roster. And they, you know, it's a good opportunity to, if they, you know, if they fail to do it, it's a little bit more concerning. But it's a good opportunity for them to kind of establish like, hey, I have the separator quality.

I mean, your mind always goes back to like 2012 Lehigh upsets Duke, and C.J. McCollum is just uncheckable. That's one of the all-time ones. Or John Morant, taking down Marquette. That was a really fun one in the first round a few years ago. It's fine when it happens, but I agree with you. Yeah, it's like you don't want to over index too much on it and, you know, neglect the entire sample.

So perhaps more of a discovery tool than really, like, leaning into it for the guys that we already know are going to be at the top of the draft. I like that. Kenneth Fareed's another one. I mean, for my Moorhead State Eagles, he's another guy who was like, you know, I'm sure we cheated to get him. I don't know. In the NIL world, we wouldn't have been able to have a guy like that. But he was somebody who, you know, sees the opportunity against a high major and played really well.

So it can happen. And maybe those are kind of the exception cases, right? It's just because the scheduling in college basketball is so different from anything you would see in a pro sport. The reality for a lot of these mid-major teams is like they just may not have an opportunity to show their stuff against the highest levels of elite talent and competition like this. So yeah, that's obviously something you should take into account. But as far as if you're already playing for Kansas or BYU, maybe not as representative in that way. All right.

Why don't we get into it here? We've basically established our front office. Rob is our NBA scout. Kyle is our college scout. I'm just in charge of everything. I'm both the owner and the GM and also the stats guy who like tabulates them by hand. So everything goes down to me and I will make all of the decisions. But you guys feel free to give input in your specific ways, okay?

It's very generous of you. Let's start with Darren Peterson. Have to start with Darren Peterson. I think the guy that if you're an NBA fan specifically, you've heard a lot of murmurs about his season, mostly because he'll do something exciting. And then you probably won't hear from for a while because of all this injury mess. Kyle, I'm just curious, just overall, like kind of setting a baseline for Peterson.

and how much credence do you put into all the messiness of his season with the injuries, though, like, maybe he could have played, couldn't play? Like, does that affect your outlook on him at all? This is one of the trickier things that has ever happened with a prospect in terms of, and we write about this in the guy, because when guys have weird single college years, and we've seen this happen, where sometimes it can be a big red flag that you should pay attention to, and looking back, we're like, damn, we should have, we should have maybe thought a little more about that. You know, the example being, you know, Ben Simmons that has been brought up a whole lot.

He had a weird college year. He went to a team and a program that really wasn't great at the time. They missed the tournament. And, yeah, and then, you know, and then we go on to have weird behaviors throughout his career that ends his career. But, you know, and then on the other side. Listen, man, he's just fishing for a while. He'll come back eventually. And then we, and then we have COVID produced a lot of these. I mean, the COVID era, I think, is going to be studied, you know, years from now in terms of its effect on that, well, humanity, you know, not just basketball, obviously. But Jalen Johnson is a guy who had a really weird year at Duke and got undervalued and got pushed down. So for teams that are smart and can see through the fog, there are some examples of guys like this in this class that we can maybe touch on.

But teams that can see through the fog and are really good at reading these things, they have opportunities to squeeze value out of players. So, yeah, in general, with Peterson, though, circling back to that, from what I have heard from people, I do think something is physically going on with him. I think that is twofold. I think that I've gotten that from people that I trust who know Darren, who know his camp. And then there is the high school tape, which is something that people argue a lot about and something that's been really getting argued about it. And in the draft community is like, you guys say that this guy's super bursty, that he gets downhill. we don't see it. I think you guys are just talking out of your ass.

It's not true. If you go and watch him a lot, I have. He is very explosive getting to the room. He was a very physical driver. You just haven't seen as much of that at Kansas this year. So I think there are people who are trying to, you know, deflate his stock in that sense. And then there's the other side of it, too, where it's like, I think that it was just handled really poorly.

I think the communication was handled really poorly at Kansas. So there are a lot of kind of cloudy moving pieces to this. I'd be curious to get your all's kind of reaction to him, just watching him as a basketball player. What do you see and where do you fall in those arguments? Just looking at him at a glance. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the contrast in terms of the burst that's either there or supposedly there or not. Because in watching him, like, it's clear that he is really shifty and I think will be difficult for even NBA defenders to stay in front of even kind of in his current form in some way or another. But there's not that like blowby quality in terms of what

he's actually putting on the floor right now for Kansas. And not seeing that does make it hard to think of him as a future superstar in the making. If it does come back as he gets healthier, if it is something that sort of levels out in his game, all of that kind of tracks. Like, I love the way he shoots. I love the poise and his ability to finish their contact. I like, again, even his ability to kind of sort his way through traffic, all that stuff is super impressive.

But for someone who already, like, I already have questions about, like, what is his feel or what is his inclination to pass. And if you're going to layer on top of it, the fact that he may not have the most explosive start to his drives in the world, that feels like maybe a star, but maybe not a superstar to me. And so I can't wait to see kind of what the truth of it is. So I'll be honest, watching the little of Peterson that I have, I'm surprised that there is a debate at number one, because I just see the way that he has an economy of movement. and just like the way that his ability to go about getting buckets feels drilled and refined in the way that especially in contrast to AJ DeBanza just feels like already an NBA like skill and approach.

Like if you dropped him into a Pacer's game tomorrow, I don't think you would bat an eye as opposed to with DeBanza. It feels like a little bit more chaotic, a little bit more natural scoring. This feels like almost the marriage of Cambooz's who might be like the extreme example of this of someone who's just like so fucking dialed in. Like, he has the dialed in part of him, but also the athleticism, and he plays the type of position that I think is just added premium in the NBA. And so I guess, Kyle, my question ultimately with him is because in the little I've watched, I'm like, holy shit, this guy seems to have everything. Like, what are we missing with him and, like, what would make teams pause about not just automatically him being number one? I frankly don't know what the pause would be because I still have Darren number one and I still believe in the burst downhill. I think that, you know, I don't know if you guys have ever had like hamstring injuries.

It really, really does affect your ability to propel yourself. And if you're healing from that, I do think that he's tried to play. And I think that I'm sure that it's in your mind at some point that it's a tricky injury. You know, I'm not, I'm not going to act like I'm like a sports orthopedic or a sports medicine person. But I do think you can make it worse if you don't rest properly and you push too much. So I think that's been going on. But in terms of like what can make people hesitate, I mean, there's some of that, like what I was saying.

Like I said that I've said this, and I think I phrased it this way in the guy, that he has had the chair pulled on his game in a way where the pull-up stuff has been unbelievable. Like his shot chart, if you look at the way that he shot the ball last this year, I mean, it's a lot of red. I mean, he's very, very good in the mid-range. And I think he's taking more of those shots

than he's going to be taking going forward. But I think it's hampered his ability to get to the free throw line. His assist to usage, which, you know, just how well do you move the ball when you have it versus scoring? It's been very scoring dominated this year, like Rob was saying, and him getting off of the ball, this is a thing where you're going to have to sort of trust your eyes and not lean heavily on the number here, like, because I've seen him make very, very advanced passes in the pick and roll where there's overhelp. He can skip it to the window. I think some of this is the result of he had a bumpy start for,

Kansas. This team was designed to be built around him. He wasn't available. He's trying to reintegrate himself. And the way that he's reintegrated himself is he's coming in as sort of like a DH almost, like come in and give us buckets. So that's why I think that even though shot making has been incredible, we haven't seen the full dynamic package that I think he actually will provide. And I do agree that if you just dropped him into a game right now, all three of these guys are like Cooper, I think they'd go and perform and perform well. They're that good. I do think he just feels like a,

what do you even do with this guy kind of score? And I say that as a defender. Like, what are you supposed to take away? How are you supposed to deny the things that he does best? That's incredibly compelling to me. And again, just like the ability to capitalize on already innately difficult shots. And if Kyle, like you're saying, if he's able to modulate in terms of style and circumstance and in that DH role,

but also in potentially more starring roles, also maybe as he comes into the NBA in a supporting role, depending on who drafts him. Like, that's a really exciting prospect. That's someone who you can really envision a future with charting in all sorts of directions. And that's all you really want if you're picking in the top three. To me, this is the most interesting thing.

And I think I said this with Bill a couple of weeks ago. The funny thing for me is that through this odd situation, I think that he, a lot of different comps get thrown around. We were talking about this the other day where, the more I watch him, the more I get the way he carries himself, his skill set that passes he can make, the shots he can make his pace, his gait. I see more and more young James Hardin in him, the more I watch him. Wow. He's that type of talent.

I really, really think so. And what's interesting is through this odd season, he's revealed that he is just as effective in damning as somebody who can just go, all right, this initial pick and roll is not here. I'm just going to go off ball for a second, come off of a fly. happy action come on he's a crazy movement shooter and i would throw this to you all in terms of like guys in the NBA hardin doesn't play this way anymore but he did when he was younger how many guys in the league can be elite pick and roll scores but also just as easily at his size be like i'm going to run off of an off ball action and be an elite off ball movement shooter not a ton of those guys step Curry. Who else? It's not a long list. It's tough because we're also seeing the trickle-down effect

of the heliocentric style coming, like being like ingrained in some of these go-to scores from the start. And so it's almost like the advancement of that same idea because you're right. Like, not only is he doing hardened-ass stuff, the confidence that he plays with while he's doing it is almost like Neil level, I'm two steps ahead of you and I've already determined that this is going to happen, it almost feels like it's too easy for him at the college level, like the step back into the pull up is just so like drilled in and just like so ahead of the defense that he's getting that off at ease and like, we'll just split two and it just doesn't seem like it's hard for him. And so in terms of like all the messiness on the court, I'm watching, I'm like, is part of this

because he's kind of the genius in the back of the class where he's so far advanced on this that like he's just bored because he plays sometimes like this is too easy for it. Yeah. And it might well be. And to be honest. with you, Kyla, as you were bringing up, like, the idea of those sorts of shooters who could be dominant on the ball, who can also play off the ball in that capacity. A lot of them are guys that are fitting what Justin's describing too, the kind of like, it's almost too easy for them at a certain point, and they have to learn how to play with NBA focus. Like Anthony Edwards is another great example. I know I've heard that comp for Darren Peterson. I don't know if I,

like, that's a level of athletic system we're going to have to see to believe in terms of projecting that, like mapping that onto him. But the other guys in the NBA who, fit that bill as versatile shooters who can just kind of switch between those roles whenever they want are those kinds of athletes. It's guys like Ant. It's guys like Tyrese Maxi. It's guys who can dial it up or pull it back whenever they need to. I would say the only other exception to the rule is maybe someone like Jamal Murray who has some of the bob and weave to him that honestly see a little bit of that in Darren Peterson right now too. He doesn't have a Nicola Yokich to play off of per se. But just in terms of the shifting of pace, the way he navigates, I can see a little bit of Murray

him off the dribble. And there's a thing that goes on too with, yeah, there's some Murray there totally and like coming off of like dribble handoffs or just sort of the like stacked actions kind of idea, which has been such a refreshing movement away from the Helio thing that I was excited about at the time. But I got I got fucking sick of it at some point. It's just like, like you were saying, Justin, it's like the evolution of the league. This is sort of, you know, and we've seen this with God like Lamello, I think was sort of

an example of just rapidly stacking actions like pick and roll, come off a screen, kind of a thing the way the Hornets are playing. It's exciting. And another thing, too, in terms of like interpreting the way he's playing is, I think if you're wired the way that he is, the way that things have been going, it's that no country for old men thing where it's just like the more you, you know, while you're lamenting what's what you've lost,

there's more going out the door kind of a thing where I think that puts an urgency in him maybe to when he does get into some of these games, he's just like, I got to get it. You know, you're trying to get back what's gone. And you're just playing a little, You're maybe hunting your shot a little bit too much, or you're just trying to be that star that you were supposed to be all year. And I could see that in him sometimes in a way that just didn't,

it's not as calm and present as Kansas would look just running their offense without him, which I think would cause people to be like, oh, they're better without Peterson. It's just like, no, they just haven't ever had to be like a comfortable time with him in the lineup, if that makes sense. Yeah. Let's flip to Cam Boozer now because he's the complete opposite of that scenario, a guy who's been there throughout the season and has excelled virtually in every aspect. I renewed my Ken Palm subscription back from like over a decade ago.

So I'm back in the mix here since my Yukon blogging days. And I noticed that his offensive rating as like an individual player is 133.7, which is not only the first in country, it is also the highest on record in Kenpom, which dates back to 04. just the efficiency the leads in league in rebounding I believe 50, 40s like 80 as a shooter it's just like

really the maximization optimization of like a player type just seems to already be there on top of the fact that he's built like Kevin Love already like the chiseled late season like late career Kevin Love it's hard to find things

not to like about him Kyle is there anything that jumps to mind you're mentioning like the stats in terms of in the analytics era. I ran this. You remember we ran this statum initially in the profile and it kind of a couple guys filtered out over the last the last like two or three games of the season. But at one point, I think in late February, I ran this filter on stathead that was like freshmen who scored over 20 points a game at over 60% true usage. I think was that the only filter.

Was there another one on there? But there had been 10 freshmen who had done that. Or I think it was maybe it was, no, it was 30. 30 total, and then seven of them were in the top 10 this season. So there were seven freshmen who were averaging over 20 points per game at over 60% true usage. But Cam was at the top of that. So he's somebody that a lot of that efficiency, you know, obviously comes that he is just sort of the big kid on the playground around the basket. I think that's where people get distracted by him and they see somebody and they think, okay, he's this archetype. So that is a mistake.

Speaking about like the, you know, the speed scouting approach. that you could make if you didn't watch enough of him, but he's very, very dynamic. I was curious, Rob, what's your initial reaction to Camboos are watching him? I love it. I would inject this tape into my veins. Just the idea of an 18-year-old who knows exactly who they are is an incredibly appealing idea from a prospect scouting perspective,

but also, I think, an aberration in a lot of basketball senses. If he was just the big kid on the block, that would be fun. And certainly in a college setting would be really exciting to watch. the part of his game that almost single-handedly defines his NBA potential to me is just the feel in the passing. Because so much of life as a big in the NBA is, what do you do with four on threes? What do you do with three-on-twos?

What do you do when you create advantages? And it's just so obvious he knows exactly where the ball needs to go. And that is the make or break skill. That is the thing that to me makes me super confident in the idea that he can be a good player for a really long time, despite every other aspect. despite, you know, like, I don't know how he performs against bigger, lankier centers. We're going to have to see.

Kyle, I'm sure you're more plugged in on that than I would be. But I just feel really confident in his ability to tether things together, given the feel that is just so obvious in the way he plays. I think it's boring watching him. Like, I'm kind of bored because he just isn't really dynamic, but I also mean it ultimately as a compliment because he just makes so many of the right passes and the right reads and the right plays all the time. And so, like, if you're the wizards or one of these teams that needs, like, a top of the marquee guy, I'd be like, oh, okay, great player.

We're going to have a lot of efficient basketball on our hands. But if you're in the front office, you're like, holy shit, this is porn because, like, he does everything right at a high level. Yeah, and, you know, if you're looking at the way he plays and you're still worried about, you know, him being that sort of a separator, difference maker, guy who produces, you know, you don't want to draft somebody at number one. who, you know, you're just like, oh, this is a great vibe guy. He's just efficient, but he's, you know, it's like, but he averages 14 points per game. It's like, where are the points going to come from, you know? At some point, you do need to put up stats and things like that to sort of draw the respect to make the passing and stuff work. And there's been some worry, I think, you know, in that game against Virginia, there's always like a game that just sort of like throws a fly in the ointment,

which is, you know, he was getting a shot blocked a lot by this long guy, Uganda, On Yenso for Virginia. And people are kind of worried about that, but I think in the NBA game, I don't think you're going to see him lingering near the basket as much because he does do so many things. You were saying it's boring, but he just has a borg-like quietness to his game that he doesn't self-sabotage really in any way. And any way that you would try to take him off the table, he has an answer for it. He's developed into like a 40% three-point shooter. He's not shooting him at volume. I mean, he shoots most of them set shots, but they're, you know, they're good. He doesn't take bad shots.

He has a nice kind of overhanded shot put game in the middle of the floor. He's going to draw fouls. But you said the passing, man, last year we were talking about, like, who was the best passer in the class, and I was starting to kind of fill that out for this group. And I briefly considered Boozer because I think his passes are different than you might get from a guard. but the time, I actually texted our friend, Caitlin Cooper about this. I was like, I wish you could know the amount of time that I have sat and just imagined as a basketball fan, Camboozer and Tyrese Hallibur and Tyrese Hallibur and playing together. Because I feel like, it would be like plugging a nice guitar into a nice amp.

You'd be like, I liked this guitar, but it sounds even more incredible to this nice. I just think them together could be incredible. I think the passing is the thing. Sorry, that was a monologue, but he does a lot of stuff, suffice to say. I think it bodes really well for the top of this draft class that you could say some version of that thing about most of the elite prospects, that a team like the Pacers that we just saw go to the finals, that has like a style and a system and a flow and a lot of stars you would need to,

we're not stars, but like a lot of quality players you would need to work with, all of them make sense there. And KM absolutely is that kind of player. You know, the questions about like where he would fit positionally with them, I think would be much more thorny now, but he can definitely play in that sort of flow. And the processing is so evident. And in particular, the idea that you have a big

who can see the floor the way he does on the move, but also has the footwork to get to lots of different things within those intermediate spaces. Justin, I got to say, I find it exciting. I get what you're saying about like boring as a compliment, but I find it to be, I don't know, it's making me feel alive. Well, let's get to AJ DeBonsa now,

because I feel like if if cam is the amp, then AJ's like the crunchy death metal distortion pedal because it's just like all raw talent. Like he is out there fucking raw talking. And so Kyle, I'm curious. Yeah, Kyle, I'm curious how you stack up the trio here with Peterson, Boozer, DePonza. Is that how you would rank them going,

like as of right now on the 16th? I personally still have, have Darren number one. I have Cam number two. AJ is number three. AJ does, this has kind of been the arc for him. I saw AJ when he was like 15 years old

at Sanex High School just down the street, like 30 seconds from my house. And I was just like, couldn't believe how fluid he moved with the ball in his hands for his size. Something that has happened with him, though, that I think is interesting is at that point,

there was an athleticism advantage that he had in a, physical maturity that he had at 15, that I think the gap has closed a little bit in terms of how I thought about him initially. I was like, okay, this guy's, I'm trying to think of the elite, like an OG on an OB, like, oh my God, he is in crazy explosiveness, gap closing length and strength and speed and things like that. The gap's closed a little bit. I don't think that he's necessarily as much of a high flyer bendy athlete as I thought, but he's still a very balanced and coordinated athlete. He's very smooth with the ball in his hands. He can run, pick and roll. He can

play. I do think that he likes to shoot off of his own dribble better than he does catch and shoot, because these guys that just jump to the moon on every single jump shot, I don't love it. I don't know how you all feel about that. I'd like you to have a little bit of a tippy toe catch and shoot thing. But I've had a little bit of worry, and I express some of this in the guide. I have a little bit of worry about his processing getting off of the ball, the speed at which he does it. He's been a little bit sticky, but something that I think people are going to have to think about for themselves, and I think teams will, is that BYU had way less talent than Kansas or Duke. Way more was asked of AJ DeBanza, and how would that have looked differently, different in a different situation?

Those are my concerns. That's why he's third because I don't have as much faith in him as a passer as the other two guys and as an efficient score. So that's kind of where I sit. But I still think he's going to be a really good player. I might need more concerns than that because this is the like AJ DePontz is the kind of player watching him in the haphazard scouting way

that Justin and I did. It's like is this the best basketball player on Earth? Like he looks incredible in a highlight like synergized discreet play format looks incredible. But you lose all the context you're talking about Kyle when you look at a player that way. All of that connective tissue,

all of the like decision making sense navigating over the course of a quarter or a game. Without all that, he looks unbelievable. And so if there's any hope that the rest of it can come together, whether that's a situational awareness,

whether that's a play context, whatever it may be, like he has everything that you need in a potential superstar, everything you need in a franchise cornerstone. Like I have heart eyes watching him play. Like there's just something about the style and the explosiveness and the variety

and also just like the downhill coursing style of his game that is pretty undeniable from just like a scouting and watching perspective. I'm interested with him what's going to happen once he get into an NBA system. Does he buy into the refinement and like sort of the dialing in? And the way that like Ace Bailey has done a little bit better than expected. Yeah. Because I think when you see DeBons, you think just pure scoring talent, shotmaker. And he does a lot of that, especially considering, as Kyle will tell you, BYU doesn't have a lot of talent there.

he's kind of been asked to do a lot of that. But I look at him, I'm like, man, there's a lot of power and strength to that build that seems to be untapped. Danny Chow and the draft guy that we're going to be publishing on Wednesday, one of his lower comps is Tim Thomas. And I can almost see like a more optimized Tim Thomas version of him. This is news to me. I didn't know that. Well, Caleb Wilson, for instance, like that is the foreground, right? It's the size.

It's the athleticism and whatnot. For AG, I feel like it's just like the pure. almost like Kobe build, shot making, just like pull-up game, shooter, all that stuff. Whereas I almost feel like there's another, like, level to him to hit. And I'm curious if he taps into that side of it

because that seems to be the bridge between him and someone like Peterson who has that just an alienly. I don't know that you could have said a name that would have been more appealing to me weirdly than Tim Thomas because Tim Thomas, he is the kind of player where if you played with Tim Thomas, this is a very NBA live heavy week of this podcast apparently, but if you played with him,

like on an NBA live or NBA, I think he's maybe even pre-2K. He was unstoppable. He was unstoppable. If you can make the decisions for Tim Thomas and he is not a basketball player in a perpetual state of implosion, he's incredible.

And so, yeah, if AJ DeBonds has all of the skills and the talent and the aptitude of a Tim Thomas but is making better calls when he has the ball on his hands or doesn't, yeah, that's an incredible player. A couple things. Rob, we've got to get you to like a summer high school basketball event,

because all of these power forwards that we loved from the late 90s into the early, they're all dad. They're all dads now. And you go to these events and Germain O'Neill and Sharif Abderahim and Tim Thomas. And all these dudes are just walking around. I have a specific memory of like going, I was going to the bathroom. And there's a tall guy walking in front. And he turns around and holds the door for me.

He's like, you go ahead, man. It was Tim Thomas. And I was like, oh. So, yeah. So a lot of that's going on. Well, this has been the first installment of Kyle Mann's Tales from the bathroom. I think we could just do an update every week if you want. No.

Did I tell another story from the bathroom? I forget. Anyway, no, I mean, speaking to, I think, the starting point of how I viewed him to what you just said, I think is very true. Whereas, like, I think that, and what Justin was saying about just his body and everything and who to compare him to is, I don't think that he's in the same category that I initially thought. Like, people say Andrew Wiggins, like Wiggins was really, really, testing-wise, like a bonkers athlete, like combine-wise. I really think the thing that is going to be

his marketable thing that he can trade on is the fact that he can move in odd ways and stay really balanced. I pulled out a lot of clips that I don't know if we'll be able to put him in the guy, but I can tweet him out or put him somewhere. But his feet are very smart and advanced, whether that's just he has a natural feel for it or they're very schooled. Like, he can change directions and he makes these weird euro moves where he can clear paths for himself to the basket. I think that he's going to have kind of an irregular way that he moves, and combined with a strength that's going to make him extremely difficult to deal with. But where he scores from is kind of the thing that I'm wondering about right now

because he really loves those kind of DeMarre Rosen, like, 13 footers with somebody on him. And it's kind of like, where is he going to live and die offensively? Because I know he's going to generate free throws, the three-point shooting and things like that. I'm curious, though, like where do you all see him in terms of like a Jason, Tatum or like the way those guys moves. Is he in that category or what do you think just from watching him a little bit? I don't know. The Tatum comp doesn't ring true for me in the way that it did for players past like Cooper

and some of these other high level prospects. I don't know if it's just because there's something a little bit more chaotic to not only his play style, but just his energy overall, whereas Tatum to me is the representation of someone who's just like so rigid to the point where it's almost just like you want to shake him in order to get him a little bit more flexible in terms of his approach, not only in terms of his body movements. So for me, it does harken back

to some of these power wings of the past where it just feels like there's just this raw energy to him and like how do you really tap it? I almost feel like I keep thinking of Ace in part because if Ace was just more successful, perhaps if he went to a different team where he had more talent overall, but also didn't have to play with Dylan Harper,

where like it would have been a little bit there because there's just like this pure shot maker id stuff going on with him that's hard to ignore. I agree with you, like visually, stylistically, in terms of the way he moves, it feels very different from even a young Jason Tatum. But I think where I do see some comparison is, at least in my memory, I remember Tatum coming into the league and wasn't necessarily a top tier shooting prospect, wasn't necessarily a top tier defensive prospect, but has turned into one of the best players in the league in both regards. And if you told me AJ DeBanza comes into the NBA and within a couple of years is an impact defender. Within a couple of years,

takes a huge leap as a shooter. That would track for me. And so I could see him being on, you know, Jason Tatum is a very lofty standard for anybody coming into the league. But if you told me he was on a Tatum-like trajectory based on his gradual refinement in the NBA,

that part I could definitely see. That's something that we need to touch on is that AJ is a competitive MFer. I mean, like he, he will take on, he wants tough defensive assignments. So I don't think that he's going to, I just kind of, I don't know, I've been wrestling with him a lot lately because I went, I went and watched him in person at Cincinnati a couple weeks ago now.

And he didn't physically dominate the game the way I wish he would have. And it kind of brought out. But then you kind of go back and you're just like, well, these guys that are super, super burdened, they're carrying such a load on both ends of the floor. It could be hard to sort of process that and know how to properly. kind of take it in a way it. But there's also the thing of like with NBA space,

it's very different for guys his size. There are a lot more kind of little, you know, water bug guards that getting gaps and things. It's just like there's, you really, really watching a lot of college in NBA get a sense for wings of the guys that, that really translate more.

These guys that can move that are big, that can play bigger. A lot of the smaller guys get filtered out. And I think that really is, even just aside from the longer three point line, the more skill, the spacing and the personnel that are in the spacing change so much when you level up to the NBA from college.

All right. So we talked about the big three here. Number four is interesting, at least from an outside perspective, because it seems like it might be a little bit more flavor-based. But for you, Kyle, does it seem clear-cut who four is? Or is it really more eye of the holder, which team ends up in that spot? I've gone back and forth about this. I think it's Caleb Wilson.

I could see teams talking themselves into like work. about, you know, is his, he loves, he's like a mid-range guy. He loves to kind of do the little stutter rip, get to his shot. He lit up Duke like that at, at, at the Dean Dome not too long ago, like wondering about his ball handling, will it evolve? But I think defensively, man, his upside is so high. He's super, super explosive. I think he was third in the country this year in, in, in dunks. He just, he gets up high, way higher than, than, than other people. If he has any kind of, like a step. So I think the defensive stuff really kind of sets him apart in a way that there's not

really an animal, there's not a really, he doesn't really have a peer in terms of his defensive upside. I think it's, his defensive upside is higher than the top three guys too. I think it's very, very possible. And he's, he's out for the tournament. What is it? Broken finger, right? And so we won't be able to watch him.

Broken thumb. Yeah. Broken thumb. What about after that? in terms of who I think comes next. Yeah. This is tough because there is sort of like a little burgu of guys where, you know, you'll hear people talk about Keaton Wogler was a guy who kind of came on.

But I have kind of worked through this process to the point where Kingston Fleming's for Houston was there for a while. I'm having a harder and harder time keeping, you know, Braden Burys out of the range of the top five. Okay. Did you guys get a chance to watch him? I did. He was actually the guy who I had the exact reaction to of, I can tell within 15 seconds that he knows what he's doing. It's just his court awareness,

I think especially hearing that he was somebody who started the season a little slower and then all of a sudden caught this groove. Like it makes total sense to me, not a top-tier athlete, maybe not a top-tier shooter again. But I also don't know what's going on with him age-wise. I'm going to need you to explain that to be, Kyle.

But just a basketball player, I would feel super comfortable having on the floor for my team that is actually trying to win games. He's a little older on the age curve in terms of, but I don't know, having my own kid, I've been told that that's more and more normal to hold kids a year. Like, it's just more accepted than when we were kids. I don't know, anyway. But for basketball players, obviously, they have their different reasons for doing it. I honestly, the athleticism thing is so nuanced from talking to people who, like, chart these guys and talk about the way they measure and things. things where we're just like, well, he doesn't jump high. It's like he's very, very fast in the open court. If he has the ball, man, I mean, he really stresses the defense. He's strong. His feet are very

quick. His hands are really quick. Is he going to be like a consistent guy that creates his own shot from three? I don't, I don't trust that yet, but I think he's going to be a good catch and shoot player. He can make simple reads and passes. He's very competitive. Like you were saying, he's spatially smart. I just look at some of these other guys and there are just worries. Like Keaton Wogler, I think he's going to be an elite shooter in the NBA, but he struggled against physicality. You know, Kingston Fleming's very, very fast. He just seems small. Even though he's listed bigger, I just, I worry about it. I worry about him getting to his shot consistently. If there's a single player I want to see at the Combine, it's Kingston Fleming's. That is the fakesst six four I have ever

seen listed. Yeah, he was 6.3 somewhere. And then I saw it, like, on the official docs, he said he was 6.4, I was like, bro, he's closer to 6 feet than anything. I will say about him, though, despite him being small, is he doesn't seem like he plays without strength. Like, there was one shot. And, like, obviously, Houston's on a heater, and he's been playing well against some

of these top guys. Like, he just played against Kansas, beat them, like, handedly beat BYU with the balance of the fact that Houston and BYU are in the same conference in the Big 12 is fucking disgusting. but that's a whole other story. But like he used his head to create space on someone in Kansas. I was like, oh, this guy like literally a hard-nosed player. And so that is a nice trade-off.

But you're right with some of these guys that are like six, three, like grinders, especially that don't have the feel of someone like an ACuff. I'm like, are you really going to waste like a top five pick in this draft on someone like that? Because there are just so many questions about that at this point. See, I actually feel, again, based on my very extensive scouting on the subject, Fleming's feels so much safer to me than A-Cuff does.

And I think the- Oh, no. No, I love A-Cuff. I love it. I love it. Go ahead. No, you guys talk about this. I will weigh in.

I'll let you go. Yeah, I think. Like the Plebs have. A little talk. Here at the kids' table, if I can, if I can take my stand for a second, I just find A-Cuff to be, like, a really confounding prospect. Because I don't have a sense of what his NBA role. is or should be. Clearly, he's a really good passer. But being a good passer in the NBA is dependent

on your ability to create advantages. And I just watch him. I'm like, I'm not sure that guy's going to be able to create advantages in the NBA. And so then it's a question of, okay, how do you modulate your role? And this is someone who, if you're not going to be able to break people down, and you're not a plus defender, and he does not look like a plus defender, what is it that you're going to be asked to do? So I went to the last year's Hoop Summit. And I'll be honest, while I was there, I was thinking to myself, when am I ever going to use this? Like the exercise was fascinating. I love being a part of it. It was great. No, in terms of just like a fish shot of water, I was just like my mind was blown. I'm just overhearing conversations from executives that I'm

probably not supposed to be eavesdropping on. It was great. But I remember after the fact, another executive asked me, he's like, oh, who was your guy? Like, who did you like? And obviously DeBanza and Boozer are just like the obvious choices. But, but, I remember after the fact, another executive asked me, he's like, oh, who was your guy. And obviously, by the way, like even last year was just built like an absolute brick house. And so I just don't know how humans are like this at 17 and 18 just didn't happen for me even then, but maybe now that I'm at the gym. But A-Cuff, I was like, that guy just has a sense for like making the right plays that I just feel like is unteachable. And obviously he had a good game in the Hoops Summit game itself. I assumed, and I think I said this at the time, like he feels like the type of guy who's

going to play three years in college. He's going to win two national player of the year trophies and he'll be that might struggle in the NBA with the transition all that because the measurable aren't there. But like I'm watching him in these big games and maybe I'm just enamored with the college environment and just how much of an absolute fucking badass he is. But like, man, he just has something that's unteachable. And if you are confident enough in the athleticism and whatnot, that that will translate enough, he seems like the guy who will just make things happen, regardless of what it might say and spit out in terms of like the analytics and and just like the just the pure eyeball test. I hope that's true.

He looks like a really good college point card. That's what he looks like to me. Yeah, in terms of just his makeup as a person, he's never really high or low. I mean, after a big play, you might see him like yell. I mean, occasionally, but he always has that stoic. I will say at the hoop summit, I was very encouraged slash deep discouraged. By the way, fashion sort of circles back in a way that. makes me feel old because the way he was wearing his braids and his shorts was 100% would

have been on the cover of Slam when I was in high school. And I was just like, man, God damn, I'm old. Anyway, but I'm wearing T.J. Ford shorts. Yeah. But I personally loved it. Anyway, yeah. So he's, he is very, you know, Isaiah was saying he's a dog. He's dogged in terms of he has a focus about him that you love. You watch the way that he plays. I personally think that what you're saying is true, Rob, about him as like an advantage creator off of the balance. I think he's got a good handle. I think the Alan Iverson, Derek Rose, stuff that people say about him is just crazy. That's the thing people are saying?

Yeah, man, like, I just don't. He's more spiritually. Okay. I don't see it in the game. I'll say that. No, man, he's not, he's not, he can dunk, but he's not somebody that is just going to like wiggle through creases and like improvise, like, off of, once he leaves it. Once he leaves his feet, he's kind of stiff in the air.

Like, he's, he's not a bad. athlete, but I just don't think that his bend is the same, like, the way that he sits down, and I think that hurts him on defense. The defense is, like, reaching, like, Tray Young levels of kids. They looked bad. Like, I, I, there's, there are the, you know, errors of commission and omission here, where it's just, like, you go about something incorrectly or you're not paying attention. It's kind of like, he has stints where he's doing both. But offensively, man, I think he's probably going to compress into, like, a quality starter type role. I don't, I could live to eat these words.

This will get clipped out. I think that he's going to be a guy who's just on a good team. But, you know, the thing is that the defense continues to be an issue, you're going to have to take that new account with the way that you build around him. So, you know, I was thinking about like if Dallas for some reason ended up with him, they have enough length and size. You're just going to have to consider those things because in terms of a two-way, he's good hands too.

And maybe he figures it out, but I think that's something you're going to have to account for. I think it changes the way that your context manifests in those first couple years in the league, too. Because if you're a guard like Fleming's who, no matter where you get drafted, you're going to be able to get into people defensively. I could see a team like Washington drafting Fleming's and playing him with Tray Young for a serious number of minutes, because I could imagine that working. But with A-Cuff, it's like if you can't guard people and you have these spatial and size restrictions and you kind of also need the ball in your hands

to do the best things that you do, you have to take that into account as far as like, what are the first three years of his NBA life going to look like? Yeah, but what about the dog cushion? The dog cushion is high. How many dogs are in Fleming's as opposed to A-Cuff?

Because he's got a whole fucking kennel. I just feel like, you can't claim to have that dog in you if you don't guard anybody. That's the dog, that's the dog's job. You know, like, you got to guard the house. It's the whole thing. We should give him some love.

I know we've expressed. some of the concerns, and we've praised his dog in us here, but I mean, the shooting is just outrageous. On catching shoots, he's at 49.1, and on almost 40 shots, if he's uncontested shots, he's shooting 60.5% from three. So he is, he's money, man. And he carried probably, I think, I need to check this one. I'm pretty sure. He carried the biggest load usage-wise of any guard that Cali-Card that Cali-Berry's ever had, and he's been really, really low-waist guard, taking care of the ball. So speaking to what you're saying, this is a guy who's a high level feel like he has really advanced sense for the game, where it needs to go. He's bolstered a team

of Arkansas players who I think they'd be like an NIT team without him because he just has orchestrated those pieces in a way and turned them into a really competitive team that won the SEC tournament and they're going to be a threat. If he is a big tournament, I mean, he's going to get consideration there in that five, six, seven range for sure. Yeah. I was wondering about him from Atlanta standpoint. You know, like they have the Pelicans pick. Like this would this would be a bit of a reach. Maybe it would have to trade down or something like that. But a team that has a lot of potential defensive help, a lot of guys who could switch into spots who can cross match, but also could rely on his playmaking and the orchestration without having to over index on it. Like that feels

like a really comfortable spot. I think you guys have both hit on two teams that I was thinking of if only because, as Kyle mentioned, he's playing with a lot of athletes around him at Arkansas, Dallas, Atlanta, same sort of thing. If he could be the one sore spot defensively that's covered by all these other guys because as we're seeing

with like taking a bit on a small guard, you really do need to have elite level trace that trade off. If he's not going to play defense, he has to be a one of one like creator type and also shooter,

not only like a good shooter, but a shooter at volume, which it seems like Fleming's might be able to do, but Aikoff has definitely done because he's leading the country in minutes. He's leading the league in points. He's leaving the league in assists.

I think this is also a good opportunity to talk about Wagler, who probably doesn't have the success or the athleticism, but the measurable is a little bit better, despite the fact that he wasn't really much of a recruit coming out of high school. And also just like the three point shooting and doing it at volume seems to be already there. And so like for me, someone who's looking at this from afar, I'm like, I'm not seeing the athleticism stuff because it's kind of hard to track like where the baseline is for some of these opponents where it's like Northwestern. And I'm just like, I don't really know how to rate this when it comes to like NBA level talent. But just like the fluid movement plus the ability to get the shot off plus the success from three. Like that seems like an archetype that fits in the NBA right now. Yeah. I mean, the shooting is like swoonworthy.

And in terms of like the footwork too, he has like NBA ready shooting footwork, the stepbacks, the side step, all of that kind of accessible action. I think it's really important for a player like him. Especially because it, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Kyle. like he's going to be more of like a secondary creator type at the next level. That's maybe a more realistic expectation than asking him to drive your offense. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think his craft in terms of like getting into the lane and, you know, playing with guys with,

he utilizes that shooting threat and that shooting gravity really well to his advantage. And I think he's going to be able to continue to do that. But I think, you know, we were talking about the athleticism. He's just not, he has, he has game in the midrange, but his game around the basket has been pretty labor. we were pointing out, this is a 6-6-6-guard. He'll probably measure it like 6-4-5 or something because I said that. But on the season at the rim, let's see, 137 layup attempts this season.

One attempt to dunk and he missed it. So I was even going back to high school. This guy does not, he can dunk. It's just the he doesn't really find ways to do it in games. Man, he shoots an effortless ball. Oh, it's beautiful. It's NBA ready. it's so, so easy.

His mechanics even, I've even noticed that I get pretty nerdy with the shooting stuff, but I've even noticed that like with the way his elbow is, I think he could adjust his elbow just a little bit and his range is going to get fucking wild. Like he's going to be able to shoot really far away. Kingston Fleming's, I was going to point out really. Did you notice how odd the end of his shot is?

It's a little wonky. I was looking on Getty and he has this like odd way that he goes this way. And, you know, Wogler's going to be a big time shooter, I think. I've heard Austin Reeves with him. I don't think he's as quick, but his craft is really, really good. Just the enthusiasm, Rob had with that beautiful.

Like, oh, you just, like, felt it in your soul. I mean, watch him shoot. Like, this is a guy who you could sit on a bleacher and just watch him shoot, like, warm-up shots for 20 minutes. And it would just be like, that was a very aesthetically pleasing display that I just witnessed. That's art right there. It really is art.

And to say nothing, Kyle, I'm glad you brought up, like, the passing element of that as well, and the way he plays off of that shooting because it does feel so natural. Watching him work off the drive where it's not first step oriented, it's all about like, can I get the slightest edge

and then can I make the lowest resistance move that's going to lead to a quality shot for somebody? And that's in innate sense that I think is really important, and especially for somebody like a premier shooter who doesn't have the first step burst to be able to understand, this is when I need to bail out of this possession by throwing a lob, by hitting a kickout,

by finding a cutter. Like, his eyes are open when he drives in a way that I think is a really great sign for who he could be as a pro. All right. You want to talk about some other guys? Maybe like hidden gems, guys to look out for in the tournament. Like, Kyle, who's jumping out to you beyond the, like, say, top 10 range? I sense my friend, Yaxil, Lendenborg, back in the mix here, ready to make a comeback here.

Yeah, we were a year early on, never wrong, just early, right? With Yaxil. Yaxil, yeah, for Michigan, he's a little bit of. older. He's had a really strange path. I'm sure we talked about this last year. He started late, but he's the son of two players. So he's had basketball kind of in his life. I've drawn the comparison to like Siakum, how Seacom started late and just kind of went to the moon. He's a little older even than Seacom was. But the thing to watch with him, Michigan hasn't been playing great lately. They lost a guy to an ACL injury late in the season that really

hurt them. But defensively, man, watch him, guard the ball. He can really, really sit down. of Wogler's worst game, well, one of the hardest games of this season for Wogler was when Dusty May put Yaxel on him and it was pretty wild to watch him. And he checks point guards all the time. He's six foot nine. He can really pass the ball. I think the Hornets are an interesting team for Yaxel because I think that his passing and his spacing and stuff would be interesting for them. I don't know if you guys got to quickly take a look at him or what more you want to say about him? It's Rob's favorite player from last year. I mean, I did love him last year. Have I seen him play at all since for Michigan? I have not. I got a cop to that one. That's fine. I mean,

I do wonder with the guys that age, because he's what? He's 24 at this point. I guess at a certain point, does that become an advantage because people have knocked them so much? Like, I think about Need Clifford, like, who's just kind of stepped in and been probably approximate what we expected from him. Like, is this the same sort of thing where he might get drafted lower because of his age, but perhaps could be a little bit more NBA, like one of the few rookies who are NBA ready? Um, yeah, I mean, I think he's going to be in be a real. He's going to scale down also. I mean, most of these guys scale down. Unless you're a certain of a player, you're going to, you're not really going to be scaling up or doing, you know, more than what you were doing in college. But with, with, uh, yeah, so I could see him falling late lottery just based on that worry, you know, he didn't have a crazy like vertical leap, but he has great physical tools. I think he's got like a seven four wingspan. He did measure the combine last year. So I think those things will, I've heard people talk about like a PJ Washington. in that phylum of player, but he's a way better pass or an on-ball defender than PJ.

So, yeah, the age thing could cause him to fall into that, like, you know, mid-teen area. And if he has a bad tournament, I can see that happen. I mean, even still, like, PJ Washington is a template and anything in the Pascal Seacom greater universe. Like, that's just a widely useful can never take him off the floor kind of forward. Pascal development curve. He's very different as an athlete from Pascal.

Gotcha. but yeah. Anybody else? We didn't talk about Michael Brown because we're not sure if he's going to play, but he would probably be in the mix of that like guard cloud,

you would think, like in that like five to, what, eight, 10 spot? Yes. He's together. We didn't mention

who has, you know, size that is, I think, going to measure out well. He's grown a lot. I got some good measurements from a credible source

on that one. And, no, I mean, he's, shout out to a university. see a little. He's somebody that could rise late in the process because he's had kind of a bump a year. The shooting efficiencies weren't exactly what we wanted to. The rim stuff was odd.

He wasn't the overwhelming dude than I think they expected him to be, but I get big Keonté George Anthony Simon's vibes from Mikel Brown. You know, very fast dribble shooter, very fast dribble passer. He gets a little bit stronger. He has qualities. that could become like a Jordan Poole type thing, or it could become, you know, somebody like a Keonti who comes on and just like, okay, this guy's figuring it out. That could happen with Michael.

Well, where do you see him in the passing part of that spectrum? Because Anthony Simons is a passer, Keante George is a passer. I would say even they are wildly different. And I've also seen other, like, more point guardy comps thrown out for him. Like, where do you see his vision and his playmaking as being part of that formula? He can make some really impressive live dribble.

I mean, dribble to pass, dribble to shoot is something in my personal philosophy that's very high. And that's just because that's a timing thing in the NBA where it's just like if you're somebody, I even talk to scouts who think that I like overdo this, but I just think if you're somebody, Wogler is a good example of this. If you're somebody that has to bring your other hand to the ball to control it, number one, much less make the pass and then make the pass, you know, the NBA is an economy of footwork and timing. And I think that, you know, like literal footsteps. Like so if you're somebody that has to do that, that's a step that guys can make up. the best pastors in the world can make those seamlessly with one hand.

And I think, I think Mikel can make some of those passes. There are some guys in this class. Like Kingston at times will have to like use his offhand to guide a pass. And that's just lost time. So Mikel does a lot of those things. I think he's got a lot of passing upside. All right.

Before we go, give us like the dark horses. Anybody you just want to mark maybe late lottery, late first round or just like guys that you love who are going to be in this tournament. and give us the sales pitch for watching them as we go through the next couple weeks. Just me as a dork who really enjoys watching guys who are like pick and roll operators, I think you guys would really enjoy Bennett Sturts from Iowa. He's a guy who has just crazy slow-mo pace.

This is another nerdy shooting thing. Guys, something that really separates great shooters is your ability to repeat and replicate how accurately you stack your body when you go into your shooting motion and how quickly you can do it. Steph is obviously the superhero version of this, like how quickly you can get from your ankles up to your shoulders ready to shoot the ball. Bennett has a very high, like every single time he does it, he repeats it the same way. His shot is very, very quick. He's a really good passer. He just puts people in jail with the way that he plays.

So he's fun. They're good role players like Thomas Howick for Florida. I really, really like. I think he's a guy that's going to be ready to play immediately in the NBA and just, you know, maybe play 10 to 12 minutes, but he's just going to be a box plus minus guy. Does a ton of different things and really competitive. Yeah, I mean, other than that, Joshua Jefferson for Iowa State, fun passing, big guy who could really be sort of a fulcrum connector for a team. There's a lot. This is a deep class, man.

I could. Bill told me I only had to name one. That's hard because his class is good. I didn't hear Braille Mullen's at all. I don't get the sense that you're a Mollins guy though. No, no, I do like him. I just have, I have Braylon more in like the 16-ish kind of range.

Like I'm not as committed to lottery as some people, but I really do. That's the thing. It's like, I like a lot of these guys. It's just the number. The number isn't as high, maybe his consensus.

I have to admit, I thought Bennett Sturts, I thought you were pulling a fast one on us. I thought you were just throwing us a little, you know, I appreciate your commitment to truthful drafting and not embarrassing your co-hosts on their lack of NCAA knowledge. Because you could have listed any name and I probably would have believed it, but Bennett Sturts for some reason strained credulity. We got there.

I feel like this has been enlightening. I feel like a lot of people who are listening this podcast are approaching it from Robin Eye's perspective. And so to get that on that level and for Kyle to hold our hands through the process probably is actually easier on the listener than than another. I'm going to say this. I'm going to mark this. People go watch this because this guy, he's, him not playing, I think, is a big deal for the NCAA tournament.

And I don't say this because he plays for Kentucky, but I genuinely think Jaden Quaintens is the dark horse thing in this draft. I think that he tore his ACL. He came back too fast. He didn't look good. Go watch the Arizona state. I'm like, I feel like the security is going to come get me because the podcast is going to go back on YouTube.

Watch him at Arizona State. This dude is a generation. He's a very, very, very special defender. At 17 years old, he was dominant. Go check it out. He's the guy had a catastrophic injury last year, played like four games for Kentucky this year,

and then it hasn't been seen since. He was not ready to come back. He came back and dominated in the one game that he played, and then his knee swelled up. He might have had some other thing going on. But some team, if, like, Oklahoma City is just sitting there, like, this dude's going to fall. Like, this is potentially catastrophic if a good team gets this guy,

because he's good. Anyway. All right. Well, we'll wrap it there. We'll be checking in on the draft throughout the next couple months. Kyle's going to be holding our hands and whispering in our ears,

all these good stuff. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Cameron Dinwiddie for filling in our production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Thursday as per usual. We'll talk to you then. Justin, we should also say, happy birthday to our usual producer,

Victoria Valencia, who rightly is off today. Yeah. Happy birthday to Victoria. To be. See ya.