The Ringer NBA Show - An Update on the Robert Sarver Investigation, Kyrie Irving’s Return to Home Games, and More With Howard Beck | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

Logan welcomes Sports Illustrated’s Howard Beck to talk about his recent reporting about the ongoing Robert Sarver investigation (0:40), the rule relaxation that will allow Kyrie Irving to play home games (22:23), and what it was like covering the Kobe-Shaq Lakers (33:57). Host: Logan Murdock Guest: Howard Beck Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the icons club. It's popping. Real Ones. Logan Murdoch.

No, it's not him. He's not here. He'll be back next week. So I got a special, special, special, special guest host for our Real Ones Thursday edition. One of my OGs, LA Daily News, New York Times, Bleacher Report, now with Sports Illustrated. Howard Beck, how you doing, buddy? What up, Logan? Great to see you and hear you again. We got to spend some quality time in my borough. recently, but good to connect again so soon. This is great. This is awesome, man. Just full disclosure for all my real ones out there. Howard showed me a great time in the world's best borough.

Sorry, I want to say that messed up. World's best borough of Brooklyn in the city of Brooklyn. It was great, man. I had a blast. It was fun. I got to come back soon, man. It was great. You do. We have at least like 700 more great restaurants you could come hang out at. So we got some good food. I'm ready to go. But I wanted to get you in because I want to talk about a lot of stuff. But first thing, you have been all over the Phoenix Sun story centered around Robert Sarver and Al Sharpton. Let me just give some quick background on that.

Al Sharpton and a coalition of social justice activists are demanding the ouster of Robert Sarver in the wake of allegations. from a Baxter Holmes piece alleging instances of sexist and racist behavior. Now, you talk to Al Sharpton about this. And they have, Al has been on the phone with Mark Tatum,

Deputy Commissioner of the League, saying that he will bring demonstrations to Phoenix if the investigation into Sarver's alleged behavior has not either come to a close or there

hasn't been substantial progress made. Now, my first question to you, Howard, is why at this point is Al speaking out after this happened in November? And there's been a lot of time that has passed since that a bombshell story came out. Why now does he want to put Sarver's feet to the fire? It's a great question, Logan, because it is the question that I think I had myself, maybe a lot of folks did in the months and even the weeks following Baxter's report back in early November, right? Because that report hits and it's a huge impact. It is all the talk of the NBA, Robert Sarver being accused of multiple instances of racist, sexist, and just generally abusive behavior. And Baxter Holmes talked to 70 plus people for that story. It's well reported out.

the league knew this was coming. Everybody kind of knew this was coming. And you would expect in the wake of that for there to have been an outcry almost immediately. Right. Like when we think back to what happened with Donald Sterling and the Clippers in 2014, immediate outcry from civil rights activists, immediate outcry from players and the players association, LeBron weighing in right off the bat, the Clippers staging kind of a demonstration with their jerseys turned in. inside out during a playoff game. There was talk of a possible player boycott in the midst of the playoffs. There was talk of sponsor boycotts. A lot happened and a lot happened very quickly in 2014 with Donald Sterling. And what we saw in this instance, and we can get into the why, because there's an obvious why here, but it's still, it's a, it's a worthy discussion. But in this instance, we saw none of that, right? Like, there was a pretty muted response. Like, there was some discussion in the immediate days after it, probably a lot of chatter on in the usual places, debate shows, talk shows, whatever, and then it just went away. So to answer your question, like, why is the Reverend Al Sharpton

and his National Action Network and this new coalition calling itself ASAP pushing this now? it's because it's been four months. It's because there has been no indication yet that the NBA, and it's the law firm that it hired to conduct its investigation, is wrapping up anytime soon. And so the concern among the activists, and I would assume a lot of other folks around the league, and I can tell you for sure, the concern among a lot of Phoenix Sun's current and former employees, is that this thing is just kind of quietly fading away. And that is why this coalition formed last week, put out a statement, sent a letter to Adam Silver, and why Al Sharpton got on the phone with Deputy Commissioner Mark Tatum,

because they are concerned that this is going to kind of be swept under the rug. And so there's two aspects of this pressure that they're putting on the league right now. One is they want Robert Sarver out on the belief that these 70 plus people that we've already seen or heard from in Baxter Holmes story back in November, that those are legitimate and voluminous concerns and instances of bad behavior by Robert Sarver. On that basis alone, these folks believe Sarva should be removed. At a minimum, they believe this report needs to come out soon

because it's been four months. Now, the league's response, and it's the understandable one, and it's a rational one, is, hey, we've had. interviewed over 300 plus people for this investigation or the law firm working on the MBS behalf. If you're going to do this right, if you're going to be thorough, you got to talk to everybody who has something to contribute to this discussion and tracking down all those people, meeting with them, follow-up meetings, I'm sure. It does take time. I understand that. And I think the activists I spoke to, including Sharpton last week, certainly understand that. But nevertheless,

four months is a long time. And one other quick data point here before I, you know, stop rambling. It took like, I think, four days between the time that Donald Sterling, that that audio tape came out of him making a bunch of racist remarks and the time that Adam Silver said he's banished for life. Now, the process of actually removing him took a lot longer, right? There were a lot of mechanics involved in all that, and it's not easy to remove an owner in the NBA. But Adam Silver's declaration that Sterling is finished, we'll figure out the details later, but you are done. That came within days after that audio tape surfaced. And here we are four months later.

Again, different circumstances. We can get into that. But that is where the frustration and the concern of the activist comes into play. That's why they're bringing to bear the pressure right now because they believe that this is dragged on too long. And for political purposes, I think, or publicity purposes, no better time than to start putting on the pressure just as the sons are headed to the playoffs with NBA championship hopes. Exactly.

And I think, you know, I'm not going to say that protesting is the last option, but it is one of the options that where you, that's where you put all the cars on the table if you're Al Sharpton. And one of the questions that I have is, what is progress in his eyes? Did you get a sense of what he is looking for, even if the investigation isn't over, per se, in the time span that he needs? I think he said, what, three weeks? if he wants to see progress in three weeks, what is progress to him? Is it a statement that this is what we found so far?

And then we will give you another statement. What does that mean to him? Did you get an idea that when you talked to him on the phone? That part's a little bit harder to ascertain. I have a sense of it, I guess. So I think it's April 9th is when Al Sharpton's National Action Network has its convention, I believe, here in New York. and he basically has said or said to me last week, we want answers by then.

Either the investigation is complete and there's a response and a decision by the league or a direction by the league as to what they're going to do to address these issues with the Sons and Robert Sarver or that there's at a minimum some indication from the MBA about when that investigation will come to a conclusion. So it puts the NBA in an interesting position, right? Because I don't know how much longer this law firm believes it needs. The NBA is not certainly making that public. So is it days, weeks, still months? If the NBA delivers word to Al Sharpton and his coalition that, listen, I know April night this is coming in your convention, this is the deadline you set that you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you know, And I think the way that Sharpton framed it was that if nothing's done, then we will be taking this up at our convention and acting on or make a decision on how we are going to respond. And that's when he's saying we may be coming to Phoenix with protests and everything. So does Mark Tatum or Adam Silver picking up the phone on April 8th and calling Al Sharpe and saying, listen, we're still not there yet, but we think we're rapping by April 17th or by the end of April or something's coming soon? Is that enough for Sharpton and his coalition to hold off? on any direct actions, only they know that. I don't know what level of information or action by the NBA will be sufficient to head off potential protests in mid-April in Phoenix.

So that's an interesting thing for all of us, obviously, to keep an eye on. And then, of course, there's the other possibility, which is they do wrap it up. They issue the report, and the report says, inconclusive. Something happened. We're not sure what. And here's a fine. You know, here's something far short of expulsion or recommended expulsion from the league. What does the coalition do at that stage? Again, I don't know. But I suspect that people are going to be pretty unhappy if this looks like just a slap on the wrist after what we've read so far. Now, we talked about this in passing.

We talked about this, I think last week when we were, you know, going to one of your famed restaurants. that we can talk about later. When we think about Adam Silver as a guy that really made his name on social justice and within his first few months, outing a racist owner. Is there pressure on him in a sense right now to get this right, considering all the goodwill he is gained from the players' perspective with these social justice issues we talk about not just the um not just the donald sterling but what happened in the bubble and really putting those measures and donating money and putting all the those measures to bring more

awareness to social justice and black lives matters causes does he have pressure on him to get how much pressure does he have on him to get this right in your eyes oh i think there's considerable pressure on adam silver to get this right you know and and we should put get this right in quotes right like what does getting this right mean and that will that might mean different things to different people. And I should, you know, again, just, you know, qualify this discussion as saying if these things are proven to have happened, right? And what is proof, right? And this is where we get into the nuances of why Sterling case is maybe landing differently with people and having a different impact than the Sarver one from the get-go. It's like with Rodney King. It's like with

George Floyd, when we have video evidence or audio evidence, we the public, and especially the broader public, react differently than it's just when it's just an investigative report in which there's a lot of people, mostly anonymous, saying, this person did these things. I heard these things. I saw these things. I don't know that that's a fair standard. Certainly, L. Sharpton and the activist who I spoke with last week would say it's not a fair standard. You can't expect everybody to have an audio tape or a videotape, and for that to be the only way that we ever get justice, in this world. Well, the funny thing is, when you talk about Sterling, is there were reports out there that he was a racist. And all in the newspaper. You can go to the LA Times archives right now and

see accusations of racism and housing discrimination and all these things for years. And it didn't take it took a, it took an audio recording. So it's, I don't, I don't know. And it also, I think that And I want to get your opinion on this. It does seem like there's a, it was just, when Sterling came, the Sterling tapes came out, it was just a perfect storm of things happening. It was the middle of the playoffs. It was in Los Angeles, which we both know is a bit more, is a very liberal place, at least a lot more liberal than Arizona, right?

And you have a place that has had long history of protest. protest against racism. And then you have him going at Magic Johnson, who was a huge figure, not only in Los Angeles, but the rest of the league. It almost seems like with Sarver, not to say that no one cares,

but it's not as many eyes on him when he does these things. He's not in Los Angeles. He's not in a New York. He's not in a place where this will get traction every single day, no matter how much it's reported on. And that seems discouraging.

I mean, I think all that feels, into it. But I think, Logan, more than anything, more than it being the city or the politics of the city, the demographics of the city, size of market, and all those things, I think, are relevant. And I think you're, you're right to note those distinctions, too, for sure. But I do think that if there's one thing that that is the, the most glaring difference, it is existence of audio tape versus lack of audio tape, right? Like, if, if somebody, if somebody, if, if, if somebody, if, if the people who are alleging these things that Sarver did and said, and there is, by the way, there is a videotape, which SI has published, you know, a portion of of Sarver making some, you know, pretty lewd, offensive kind of remarks at a memorial for a friend of his. That is a piece, right? But it is not, it's not essential to what Baxter Holmes' story had, which was a lot of, you know, multiple instances, alleged instances of racism and misogyny, that audio or that videotape of

the Memorial and Sarver speaking there, you know, has elements of some of that. But it is not the same thing as the smoking gun of somebody dropping the N-word or somebody saying things that are just outright blatantly racist as Donald Sterling did on that tape. So I do think that this, the biggest difference is this so far lack of physical evidence. Now, for all we know, this law firm maybe has uncovered something. Maybe somebody does have a tape somewhere, and we just don't know yet because that report is still in progress. But in the absence of that, it just feels like the visceral reaction by the public at large is different. It's just fundamentally different. It's harder for people to be certain about it. Because, you know, there's that skepticism, right? Well, who are all these

anonymous people? You know? What are their motives, right? The stuff that we always, the stuff that we always kind of get when these types of stories come out. Which again, arguably is an unambiguous. fair standard when burden to bear for people who are victims or even alleged victims, however you want to frame this, of racism and sexism and workplace abuse. That's an unfair burden for people to have to have to produce an audio tape or videotape. Like we're all supposed to be walking around recording everything at all times just in case. I mean, that gets into a lot of, you know, complicated issues there. So, but to get back to Adam Silver then, I would say in 2014,

and not to diminish at all, how difficult a step it was. Unprecedented, as far as I know in NBA history, to take this kind of action to remove an owner. That was not easy. And to get all the other owners to do it, because Adam Silver can't do that unilaterally. He needed a majority of the board of governors, of the other owners.

And I think it was more than just a majority, obviously. I can't remember if that was a two-thirds thing or whatever. And you had people like Mark Cuban, the Mavericks owner, saying at the time, before those actions were taken, it's a slippery slope and everybody might have something and so we've got to be careful. He voiced something

that I think probably all the other owners felt, right? And so it's not to diminish or to say it was easy what Adam Silver did, but I will say he made the only decision he could make. Which is to say when the players are on the verge of a potential

strike in the middle of the playoffs or boycotting a playoff game, when you have sponsors that are threatening to pull out. And I think some actually did pull out of, at least from the clippers, not from the NBA at large. When you have this just national outcry

because everybody could hear the audio and did over and over and over again after TMZ released it, at that point you have no choice, right? So again, not to diminish how difficult it was for Adam Silver to pull it off or the strength it took to lead that charge and to get the Board of Governors

to go along with him. But in a way, it was the, only thing he could have done. This is a little bit more ambiguous. Again, I don't want to say that it's fair to make this standard the standard, but in absence of a videotape or audio tape, that causes everybody to feel this can only go one direction and to bring to bear the pressure that sponsors do and that players do. The players have been fairly silent on this. The players' Association has taken a wait-and-see approach on this. So if the Players Association doesn't push on this, if the players don't push on this, it gives Adam Silver and the Board of Governors

an avenue to take a much less extreme stance. They can let this go. I'm not suggesting that's what will happen. But again, why is this coming to the four now? Why are activists like Al Sharpton making this an issue now? Because that's what they fear. Absolutely of a video. Tate, man. It's a tail oldest time. But we'll see what happens. This is very interesting. I know that the league does not want a protest in Phoenix. They do not want demonstrations during playoff games. Especially the thing with Al Sharpton is he brings attention to causes. And this will cause nationwide attention. And just it's unwanted attention for the league. I know that's something that they do not want. No, but also think about this because I've since these conversations last week and the stories that I wrote about this last week, I've thought about this a lot. Like, if the report wraps up soon, because think about, like, ideally this report should have landed two months ago, right? Just for the NBA's image purposes and political purposes, right? The last time you want this thing to land is in the middle of the playoffs.

Now, if the Sons were a lottery team, maybe you wouldn't care as much, right? There's gradations to all of this. But the Sons had the best record in the NBA, favor to go to the finals, could win it all. And we're on the eve of April. And the playoffs are coming quick. And the report's not out yet. Again, they needed to be thorough. Got it.

But so now what do you do? If you're the NBA, if you could plan when you wanted to release it. First round? No, bad idea. Second round, worse idea. As long as the Sons are still in it, unless they got upset. Do you're not playing games? Like, what do you do?

Do you try to? While everybody's focused on whether or not LeBron James can get the Lakers into the playoffs. By the way, here's a report. Yeah, like there's no good, like because we're already into the spring or are we officially in spring yet? It's not spring here in New York today. I'll tell you that. Not here.

It's not spring in Memphis. It is freezing, but it is somewhere. But once you've gotten this deep into the NBA calendar, there's no good time to release it. So they have, you know, by process or by choice, they have backed themselves into a corner because this is the last time you want to be releasing this, even if the report is somehow inconclusive. It's still going to have a lot of details of things that were alleged to have happened, and at least some things that they'll probably verify happened. And whatever form that takes, you don't want it coming out in the middle of the playoffs. And the deeper into the playoffs,

you get the worse it is for the league to have to deal with that negativity at a time that they are normally celebrating themselves, right? And if the suns go out of the way, the finals, you're just going to keep pushing it off until the summer? What if they win the championship? Are we going to go from the parade one day to the Sarva report landing the next day? Like, there's just no good time at this stage, especially when it's already taken this long. So, I mean, it's a fascinating kind of like meta discussion about how you handle these sorts of of things and what the league will do. That's interesting. We've got to have you on again when that report drops. at some point.

But let's take a quick break. I want to talk about our trip in New York. And we are back. I'm here with Howard Beck. Beck, I was with you in Brooklyn. I went to some Nets game, just kicked it. It was chilling. The sense I was starting to get when you talk to people,

and it's coming to bear today, was that there was a lot of hope that the NYC mandate for, athletes and vaccinations was going to get lifted. There was just a lot of hope. There was just some things out there. They didn't, you know, everybody that I talked to, they didn't, they didn't have a concrete way of how it was going to happen. Some people thought it was going to happen from the unilaterally or at the state level. But it happened to escalate pretty quickly, even though public officials in New York were like, no, it's out indefinitely. This is, this is going to be a

indefinite rule that players can, players in New York home players cannot go into facilities unless they, or cannot play sports or perform unless they are vaccinated. But you start hearing these things. And yesterday, when I was at the Grizzlies Nets game, during pregame, you know, you get the reports that New York City mayor, Eric Adams, is going to, phase out that mandate. And now Kyrie is expected to play for the rest of the season home games. And, you know,

this doesn't affect Kyrie. It affects the Yankees with Aaron Judge, the match, whoever unvaccinated players that they have. I was only in New York for about a week. Did you see that, did you sense this happening? Or is this coming as a surprise to you? Honestly, I'll say it's a little bit of a surprise.

I mean, Eric Adams, the new mayor, had been, you know, pretty hard, about this, that he was not going to make exceptions just for... Cono Kyrie by name. Yeah. A few times. A few times. And, you know, look, all of these issues with COVID, all of these policies, all these protocols and laws, everything that we have seen over the last two years, they're complicated. They're difficult. And they require balancing of a lot of different concerns and interests, you know, public health versus employment

versus any number of things, right? Like, it's hard. So I'm not going to criticize the mayor for the stance he took or for reversing it now necessarily. It's difficult. I wouldn't want to be in that position. But nevertheless, he was sticking to his guns this whole time. And now this is a bit out of the blue.

And it does come as baseball season is bearing down. Eric Adams also apparently a big Mets fan. um, uh, M, uh, the baseball team. Um, and this is affecting the Mets and Yankees too. And so suddenly here we are. It like, it was never going to be reversed just for the nets or for Karee. And by the way, like this affects all performers and athletes within New York City, not, but obviously not visiting performers, but only the people who are based here, which was always a weird kind of contradiction or inconsistency in the policy. Everybody understood that. But the idea was that, you know, look, if we're, if we're laying

off 12, 1,300 public workers over their refusal to get the vaccine. If we're requiring this for all of these other, and the law basically is, I think it's any company, any business that employs 100 or more people had this mandate that everybody had to be vaccinated, right? So that's the policy that was affecting Kyrie Irving. If you're going to be consistent, you don't want to start carving it out exceptions just for sports teams or just for one player, right? So now, maybe it's, look, if I'm going to guess, and, you know, as you and I are recording, I don't think the mayor has spoken yet today. We're waiting for the actual official announcement of this and presumably the rationale behind it and behind the timing of it.

It's going to be, it's going to be at city field, but for all you guys that are wondering. It's going to, it's, what's this. At the Met Stadium. At the Met Stadium. He's a showman, isn't it? He's a bit of the, yeah. Oh, there's a lot of showmen. At least he tries to pride himself and he prides himself in being a,

it's Shillman, and that's putting it like. I don't know what this mayoral administration will ultimately look like when all is said and done, but I guarantee you it's going to be an entertaining ride for the next few years here in New York. But, you know, is it that there's now more than, you know, like you can shroud it as it's not just about affecting Kyrie anymore, right? If you repeal this a few weeks ago, it feels like you're doing it for Kyrie. If you repeal it now, well, it's also affecting the Yankees and Mets as well as other performers. Also, we are that much further into this part of the cycle where infection rates are

lower. They have been creeping up again, I believe, recently, but nowhere near what they were at the height of Omocran or at other junctures in the last two years. So it's like you and I are not public health officials or epidemiologists, but I guess you could say that if there was a time to do it, this is a plausible time to do it. Whether it's defensible, I'll leave to the experts. But look, we may be days away from Kyrie Irving making his long-awaited home debut in the 2021-22 season. Well, it was funny because after the, after the, the game last night in Memphis, Kyrie comes up to the podium and is like,

I don't want to speak in hypotheticals. I don't want to speak on what will or won't happen to borrow. And our friend, Nick Fidel, asks him, you know, just about like something, just a question around that, right? Just how do you feel about your stance throughout this whole time? And he goes, I am not speaking in hypothetical. But from a basketball standpoint, what does this do for the Nets? Because we both know this.

We've been around a lot longer than I have, but we've been around NBA teams for quite a bit. And the biggest thing about teams in sports is they need a rhythm. And we both watched the Nets the other night together. It's hard for them to find. a rhythm on a day-to-day basis, not only because of Kyrie, but a large chunk of it because of Kyrie and injuries and things of that nature. I just, I'm not convinced that they will go far in the playoffs at this very moment, just seeing them just play for the small stretch that

I've seen them play for the fact that they haven't had rhythm. They've have guides in and out of the lineup. What do you see this brings Kyrie? Kyrie coming to the fold, what does that bring the Nets? Do you think that that brings the Nets closer to a title? contending team right now, or are you taking a wait and see approach that they have them full time now? And I don't remain skeptical for anything that has anything to do with the talent or abilities or big game performance abilities of Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. They can get you out of almost any situation. They can manufacture points and manufacture shot opportunities that very few people in today's game or the history of the game have been able to do. That always

gives you a chance. But, you know, we've both been doing this a while. I've been doing this a while. I been doing this a little longer. I got the gray's in my beard to show it. We talk every season about things like chemistry and rhythm and flow and camaraderie and all these intangibles that we believe, and not just us, this is not just some dumb media narrative, right? This is what the athletes themselves and coaches themselves will tell us year in a year out. These things matter. then just say, well, we can just throw guys together with very little ramp up, very little time together, and say, go and go win a championship. I think that's a stretch. Now, I said the same thing last season when the Nets only got eight games in the regular season with Hardin, Durant, and Kyrie.

And that team, despite injuries, still, you know, made a pretty good, you know, run in the playoffs. And if not for Kevin Durant's, you know, size 12 foot or whatever, blah, blah, blah, you know, maybe what a guy. 12. Size 12 foot? No, it's not a size 12. Size 17, 15. Where is it? I don't know.

Whatever. It's massive. It's massive. It's not Shaq's size 22s, I don't think. But whatever, if not for the extra quarter inch of his big toe or whatever. So incredible elite talent and enough of it, I think, can overcome a lot of things. But Kyrie having been out for most of the season. and the making this blockbuster trade where they ship out hard for Ben Simmons,

who still hasn't played, who might not play in the regular season. And at some point, you're going to try to plug him in, man, come on. Like, that's, that's too much for any team to do on the fly. Ben Simmons has not played a single second of a single game with the Brooklyn Nets. And this is not adding some shooter off the bench. Also, has a herniated disc and just got a epidural last week. No small thing. Which was hilarious how that came out.

Were you in the room when we, when Steve Nash? That whole back and force with Nash. Yeah, that was, yeah, this is this cat and mouse game. It's just bizarre. NBA teams, wow, I'm not going to go on that tangent about injuries and HIPAA and all this other BS that the NBA teams do to us. But it's too much to ask of this team. And by the way, it's not because Kyrie and Kevin Durant can't do it.

we saw them, you know, just the game that you were just at, get pretty well spanked with the box score. Kevin Durant, he was 12 for 28, not the best of nights for him. Kyrie 15 for 27, great night for him. It's never about... At 43. Right, but it's never about whether the stars can do it off of very little playing time together. It's how does that impact a Patty Mills or a Nick Claxton,

Cam Thomas, Kessler, Edwards, Andre Drummond, the rest of this supporting cast. And it's not like the greatest supporting cast in the world either, by the way. So those are the guys who need rhythm, who need to know where their shots are coming from and how to anticipate the moves of their stars and how to function as a unit. Because it's the role players who can't manufacture out of thin air and are relying on the offense to generate shots and to be rhythm shots. And so like that's the concern. Not to mention defense. Defense is a lot about reading each other and chemistry and muscle memory.

And so the idea that the Nets can go through a season like this, make their way through the play-in, and then make a finals run, I just think is a huge stretch. On top of it, by the way, lest we forget, if the Nets finish eighth and the Raptors 7th, the Nets have to go to Toronto where Kyrie Irving still isn't eligible to play because he's not vaccinated. Are you saying Eric Adams is the mayor of Toronto? He can't make that happen? I mean, can Kyrie Irving get one more miracle law changed before the play-in? I'm guessing not. But, yeah, like, that's still out there. They still may have to go to Toronto without Kyrie because of his refusal to get vaccinated.

Now, I would like to ask you, because you have covered super teams for better or worse. how when you think about me and risa talk about this all the time just the evolution of what a super team is especially with salary caps it's so hard to build one if you're going to you obviously want a star and a i think we were talking about this the other night you said a top five guy and a top 15 guy if you want to be a title contender now there's always the the the the lore of getting another a number a number three star on you your roster instead of and not rounding it out and just going with you know we saw this in in

Brooklyn what do you think we're going to look at for the what do you think we're going to how we're going to look back on this super team era I'd say from like oh wait to about now when we talk about the celtics into now how are we going to look back at this do you think we're going to look back at it fondly or do you think it's going to be a how we look back and say oh we should probably have built teams a little differently going forward because there's so it's so critical on injuries and health and things like that. And if you lose one star, you can just forget about it. How are we going to look back on this era? You think? I mean, look, there's a certain fundamental truth in the NBA that talent wins. Elite talent wins.

Like 98% of the time, the team with the best high-end talent wins. Wins a playoff series, wins a championship. You can usually look at, like, there's very few times in NBA history, at least in my 25 years covering the league, where you look at the finals and go, well, that was a surprise. You know going in pretty much who's going to win. You don't know if it's going to take four games, five or seven, but you usually know.

And in most playoff series, there's an upset here, an upset there. Fewer in this era where we have Best of Seven first round instead of Best of Five first round. I will always stump for going back to Best of Five first round. It was a lot more drama, a lot more exciting. But the NBA has legislated out, for the most part, the upset by having everything be best of seven. So, okay, elite talent wins.

The more elite talent, the better off you are. Probably, mostly, but not always, right? So what we've had in the super team era is teams scrambling to, let's start with the Celtics, because the Celtics of Pierce, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett kick off this era, right? They get those two guys to put with Paul Pierce. They win a championship. They go to another finals in that time. I would say that that is directly what triggered LeBron going to Miami to form a super team with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosch and on and on.

So then you've got everybody trying to replicate it in various versions of it. Now, would teams have been doing that anyway? Because most teams are geared and most GMs are geared toward if I could get my hands on a superstar, top five, top 10, top 15, wherever that is, wherever those lines are, I'm going to go get that guy. but we did see a lot of like, we've seen some like fake super teams in the last, you know, 14 years too since the Celtics kind of kicked off this era. And sometimes that lust for talent or marquee names lead you in the wrong direction. It certainly has for the Lakers with the Westbrook deal this season. And look, the jury's still out on what the nets have done because they got Kyrie and Kevin Durant in a single day of free agency a couple years back. right? Did they need James Hardin as the third guy? I mean, was that just a, you know, was that too much?

I certainly thought at the time, because I liked the idea of like Durant and Kyrie with some high-level role players, right? Like they had Spencer Dinwiddie still. They had Jared Allen and Karis Lavert and Joe Harris. And I thought those two like absolute stud scores surrounded by a bunch of really high-level role players, I thought was a good formula. They wanted to go the super team route. And by the way, my own definition for super team, it's when you get the third star, third legit star. There's some fake versions of this, as I said.

What about the 2004 Lakers? Was that a super team, sir? Was that considered one? I mean, I was like, I don't want to tell you my age when that happened, but. I know, you were like three months old, I know. Exactly. And I was already 72. Yeah.

So that was my last year on the Laker beat was 0304. Cromelone was still kicking ass in Utah before he jumped over to the Lakers. And Gary Payton, while both he and Cromelon were late in their careers, Gary Payton was still a really effective player. I don't think he, I can't remember the last time he'd been an All-Star before they signed him. But yes, that was absolutely a super team. And I would say the only super team during the Shaq Cicobie era. Like when they got Glenn Rice, people's like, oh, he's the third star.

Glenn Rice was effectively like a glorified role player. Yes, he'd been like an All-Star MVP during his. Charlotte Days, but that's not the Glenn Rice they got. Hey, man, he showed up in game two of the other 2000 finals, okay? Show us from respect to Glenn Rice. He showed up. He was easily replaced by Rick Fox, who they already had when they, when they offered of Rice the next year. I don't, I'm not buying any Glenn Rice mythology. I was there. That's the harsh stuff. I was watching. I was watching the DVDs. I was watching the DVDs,

They said that Glenn Rice was the savior of the Lakers in 2000, Howard Beck. So that's what – Please. Anyway, so, like, they didn't have super teams. They had – it was Shaq & Kobe, and, like, you had two top five players, plus a bunch of really good role players, Rick Fox, Robert Ory, Derek, Fisher, Brad, Shaw, Ron Harper, Horace Grant, all these guys. So when they make the move for Peyton and Malone, now you got four, four future Hall of Famers.

And, like, it's funny the narratives around that team, right, because they lost. And so it was viewed at the time, and I think people still talk about it as, see, this is proof that you could have too much. And I think there's maybe a little bit to that. The real truth of it was Gary Payton was a really bad fit for the triangle, and, you know, Peyton wasn't going to bend and neither was Phil Jackson. Carl Malone got hurt early in that season on a freak play, not because he was old, but just because I think it was Scott Williams,

ran into him on the sidelines in Phoenix one day, messes up his knee, he's out for months. Cromillum was the glue of that team. He was the only. one keeping Shaq and Kobe from, you know, killing each other in the locker room in what was probably the most tense of all their seasons together. Kobe's facing the sexual assault charge in Colorado. There's that going on. There's, there was just a lot. It wasn't, they were, they were so top heavy with four future Hall of Famers who couldn't share the ball.

In the, in the first 20 or whatever games, when Carl Malone was playing, they were 18 and 2. They were destroying people. Like, they looked like they might go 80 and 2 for. the season. That team was amazing. Carl goes down. It changes everything. And by the end of the season, Phil Jackson's a lame duck. Jerry Buss has decided not to extend him. Shack is already hearing. He had told me this on the side one day late in the season saying they're going to trade me. And Kobe has flirted with free agency. Kobe has kind of half openly flirted with going to the clippers in free agency. Like there's just a lot of stuff in the air. And this is not to diminish. I had this discussion with Chauncey one year because I'm like, I'm not just diminishing what you guys did,

but a lot of shit that was going on. And so this idea that the three musketeers, all for one, one for all, gutty little pistons with no stars, beat the big bad Goliath with all their Hall of Famers. Like was a, like an over-mythologized narrative. It really wasn't the full truth. The pistons actually- That was also a rough postseason that year for the Lakers. It was a rough one. Oh, it was rough. No doubt. And that was a huge disappointment. and they crash and they burn and everyone's now out, right? Shaq does get traded. I'm just talking about before the finals.

They go in and they go down 02 to the spurs. They have trouble in the early rounds against the rockets. They had some trouble. That was a tough, even before the finals, they were battered going into that final series. And I would say that if I had to point to like one primary thing as to why they lose to the pistons, like it's a bunch of things, not least of which is that Malone was hurt again. And so now you've got Slava Medvedenko guarding Rashid Wallace, among other things. But Kobe's going one on five. He's ignoring Shaq. Shaq and Kobe of all the

ups and downs they had. And right, when they would come together and be on the same page, they were unbeatable. And then they would fray again. And it was this up and it was, I always described it as this roller coaster. Like it wasn't this linear thing. Like, no, they didn't get along. And then they did. And then it was fine. It's like, no, they did. Then they didn't. Then they did. Then they did. And it was a constant cycle of having to like refashion this relationship. But in those finals, Kobe, it was at that time the worst field goal percentage of any series, any postseason series of his

career, and he was forcing it, and Shaq was shooting at a high percentage. He wasn't as effective as he'd been a couple years earlier, but still, Shaq was still dominant. And those two are the reason that they didn't win, not because, oh, Gary Payton,

Cromillan, and everything else. Like, there's a little of everything, but Horace Grant was like, you know, creaky and toward the end and Rick Fox. Everybody was, like on their last legs, a lot of them were. So it was a lot of things that went into that. But I don't look at that as this,

like what I said, became the narrative at the time and it has endured all these years. It wasn't the failure of a super team. It was really the failure of Shaq and Kobe. Okay, there's some, like, journalists nerd questions for you. What was it like from a coverage standpoint

covering, I'd say, from 2000 to 2004, what was it like covering that on a date day basis as a beat writer. Was it, was it, was it, was it hard? Did you think something was going to come every single day? I'm basically asking the questions I ask you over dinner right now. What was that like? Yeah, I'll, I'll give like 70% of what we discussed at dinner, I guess. I'll withhold a few things. But no, like it, my, my first answer is like the last thing that any fan wants to hear, right, because they think our jobs are so amazing and they are in so many ways. But the first word that always comes to mind is stressful.

It was stressful. And like, did I see a bunch of like amazing basketball? Historic basketball. Yes, you can't appreciate it in the moment because you're on deadline. You're competing against a bunch of other really great beat writers. Who are you going against? Saturday days, who are we going against? Who are we going against?

Who did the G's that we was going up against? So I first start covering the Lakers in 97. Scott Howard Cooper is covering them for the L.A. Times. He's been on the beat for years and was excellent. And I learned a ton from Scott Howard Cooper. And then he hands it off to Tim Kawakami, who's just an absolute badass on the beat. And we go up against each other for a couple of years. And then Tim Kawakami hands off to Tim Brown, who is an incredible reporter and writer.

And that's just at the LA Times, right? There was Kevin Ding and a few others at the Orange County Register. There was Brad Turner covering for various. Brad Turner has worked for, I think, every single paper in the entire region, maybe all of Southern California. BT, correct me if I'm wrong. Shout out to BT. BT's resume, it takes a lot. You've got to go really small type to fit it all on one because he has hit all of them. He's at the L.A. Times now. He's one of the all-time greats. Love you, BT. Yes, sir. But he was at Riverside at one point, and he was, I think, I can't remember San Bernardino, was it? I apologize for not remembering Brad's resume. There were a lot of people on the beat, a lot of really good, high-quality people. And so you're competing day in, day out against that. And then on any given day, so all the big names on that team had a guy.

They had a national guy, right? So Shaq had Mike Wise, who was at the New York Times back then. So anytime Shaq really wanted to, like, unload or give an exclusive, he's going to Mike Wise. If Kobe wanted to unload and he did, he goes to Rick Buecker, who was at ESPN magazine at the time. Or Jim Gray, right? Or Jim Gray. Jim Gray for a couple of key moments, too. But there's a story in the 2000, 2001 season, I think it was,

coming off the first championship where Kobe gives the quote about, you know, people want me to turn my game down. I'm going to turn my game up. And that was a Buker exclusive. And then you had Phil Jackson going to Sam Smith, his longtime buddy over at the Chicago Tribune, who he has a longstanding history with. So you're just constantly like looking over your shoulder on this beat, right?

There's all the other beat writers and everybody's really good on this beat. So there's that competition plus people coming in from the national scene and like, so it was, dude, it's stressful. Like I, I know. And like you're at the daily news and you know that they're going to give like they're, they're going to drop leak to the times. Like you know that that's going to happen. Plus, we're just, we're out gunned, man. Like I had, I had no full time backup. I would just work like 75 straight days.

If I took a day off, it would, it would be, you know, like a preps writer filling in for me for a day. Although some of those preps writers were really good because one of the people who would fill in. sometimes when I was off for a day was Ramona Shelburne who has turned into a badass of her own. But back then, Ramona was, that was in her early days with the LA Daily Doo. She was, she was just learned the rope. So, you know, I didn't have a full-time backup. The LA Times had multiple people and they had multiple people who had covered the Lakers in previous eras too.

Plus they had Adande. They had Plashky, Mark Heisler, like all these guys, I just felt like, you know, I'm sitting there with my like, you know, little like. cap gun and they've got like an arsenal. Yeah. Have you seen Harlem Knights? I don't know if you've seen Harlem Night. No. There's this scene with Arsenio Hall, right?

You got to watch Harlem Knights. There's a scene with Arsenio Hall where they have one guy has a machine, he has a Arsenio Hall has a machine gun and I'm saying this is the LA Times. And then there's this other dude. They're trying to shoot at Eddie Murphy in the film. Arsenio Hall is going,

Zzzzzzzzzzz! Shooted his gun at every once in a while, this little dude has his little starter pistol and goes, pow! And then after a while, I think Arsidio shoots the guy with a pal. I think that was you. You were the Daily News. You were a little pow. Yeah, that was me laying on the floor bleeding out. You know, I got my wins here and there. But yeah, look, it's so, plus there's just the stress of it's, I'm a newspaper reporter who has to write every single day, right? That's the job. So you're always on deadline. you're always banging out a story, you're always transcribing, writing,

you know, wash, rinse, repeat. So, like, I have memories of, of certain games and certain moments. Like, I always think about my, one of my favorite all-time plays that I covered was there live for in which I wrote a massive oral history of when I was at Bleacher Report

a couple years ago was the lob. Kobe DeShack, Game 7, Western Conference Finals in 2000 against the Blazers, that huge comeback from 15 down of the fourth quarter, and that play defining not only that season,

but the entire era in a lot of ways, launched the era. At the time that happens, we're already, like, we've written entire stories about, like, the Lakers lost. When you get to the fourth quarter and the team you cover is down 15, you have not pre-written,

but as the game is unfolding, you're on deadline. You're just writing, Lakers lose, you know, 67 win season down the drain, but hey, it was just year, Woon-Dor Phil Jackson, they'll come back next year.

There'll probably be some changes, blah, blah, blah. You're writing this whole, like, what we call basically an obit, right? We're writing an obit for the season. And then suddenly, that 50 point leads down to 13 and then it's 11 then it's 9.

What is your story? Like when are you like my story's fucked up? At what point in the fourth quarter are you like fuck during that time? I think every every just as they're chipping away it's kind of like

Wasn't when Kobe got the block or was it like when they like where are you like because I've been there before and you're like fuck I don't remember like specific plays but it's like first it's like huh okay

well that's it just oh shit oh wait oh oh oh fuck. And it's like, little fuck. Fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, God damn it. I got to start rewriting this whole fucking thing. Delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete. Um, it, it, like, how long is your gamer? How many words is your gamer? Yeah, like, 800 to a thousand words. That's, that's stressful. Phenomenal. But that, like, so that's what's happening. By the way, quick aside of that one. So I always tell people like, hey, we have no rooting interest. I have no emotional investment in the teams that cover in the league at large. All true. But

we have a personal interest. And my personal interest at that time was that one of my best friends, Sean, was getting married the next week at his family's ranch in the middle of nowhere Nevada. And it was going to be very hard to get to regardless. But if the Lakers were out, I could make the wedding. If the Lakers won and were going to the finals,

I was going to be at Game 1 in Indianapolis. Or no, excuse me, one at Staples and then eventually having to go to Indianapolis. I can't remember exactly how the calendar fell with where his wedding was. But point being, I was suddenly realizing, because in my head I'm going, all right, cool, they're going to lose. Season's over. I'm writing this obit.

Tomorrow I do a quick follow-up story. We do the locker clean-out day. I got a couple more stories. And then I'm done. I go to Sean's wedding. Cool. Everything's great. And so literally all this stuff's going through my head too.

Yes, I'm on deadline watching one of the most historic comebacks in NBA history. And I'm thinking about I'm going to get to go to the wedding. Oh, shit. I'm not going to get to go to the wedding. So wait, where are you? Oh, my God. I'm so triggered. I'm so triggered.

Where are you at when he, like, at the lob in terms of like where your story is at. And then when when Kobe throws the lob, are you like, are you looking or are you like, fuck, fuck, fuck, I'm almost done with this rewrite. I got a couple more sentences I have to. Where are you at in that moment? And then just give me through that.

Who you're sitting next to where you at? What's going on? Yeah. So back then at Staples Center, we're sitting baseline and we're on the baseline that the Lakers benches on, but on the opposite side of the station. Right?

So we're in the corner where Denzel Washington sits. and I'm among the seats closer to the basket. I think Kevin Ding from the Orange County Register was sitting to my left back then. Maybe Tim Brown was to my right, or excuse me, no, it would have been Kawakami to my right. Brad Turner is somewhere in that row. So we're that first row on the court baseline. And that play happens at the opposite end.

So the camera angle that you often see where you see the back of Kobe, you know, sizing up Scotty Pipp and dribbling in front of Scotty, and then crosses over Scotty. No, hold on. crosses the fuck out of Scotty Pippet. I cannot emphasize this enough. Scotty was cold. Scottie was cold still back then.

He was still one of the best offenders of the league. Scottie was still great. Kobe loved, loved showing up Sky. Kobe, man, the second Kobe became a full-time starter for that team when they would go against Scotty, he couldn't wait. Because Scottie would do shit like hit him in the back when his back is hurting and stuff. But also because he was Scotty. That's Michael's guy.

Kobe wanted to fuck him up. Anyway, so yes, cross the fuck out of him. for correcting me. And so I'm seeing this evolve from behind. When Kobe goes up, I think he's going to shoot it. And I was heartened to find out all these years later when I did this oral history two years ago. When I talked to Brian Shaw and Derek Fisher and a bunch of other people for the story, it was about maybe 50-50. A lot of them thought, because it's Kobe. Of course he's going for this shot. Some of them said, no, no, no. I knew I could see he was setting up the lob. But I think the majority actually of the people I talked to on Blazers and Lakers, who I

interviewed for that story, said they thought he was going for the shot. It's Kobe. Of course he is. So I see him grazing up and his hands moving up with the ball in it. I thought it was, it was kind of lofting a shot from the top of the key there. And so it's out of like the side. This is my peripheral vision because I'm locked in on the back of Kobe. It's my peripheral vision where I see like this, this large object moving in from, you know, right to left. Oh, no, shit. There's shack coming in. for that dunk. So it takes you by surprise. And it took a lot of people there by surprise on the court and in the stands. Not everybody saw it evolving because Kobe's going up. You think he's shooting.

And maybe Shaq's just coming in for like the rebound or the tip in in case he missed. And so and the place just fucking explodes. It is one of those. And Shaq is up like a DeAndre Jordan in his prime, right? As big as he is, it's just like, he got up there. Yeah. He got up there. And I think the lob was like a little bit behind him too. So like Shaq had to kind of reach back for that one. incredible play, incredible moments. And they're already up at that point. I'm going to screw this up.

They're up at least a couple of points. They might have been up by four, and that extends it to six. So the comeback has already happened, but they're still like a minute plus to go. They could still screw this up, and the Blazers were a really talented team. And so that's the moment when you think it's over, right?

That is the killing blow. The comeback was already devastated. the Blazers, but that is the knockout. And as you're writing, now of a sudden you've got this defining moment, but there's a minute left to the game, and as soon as the game is over, you're supposed to be hitting send.

Yeah. And so... Are you on a typewriter? You have to go to a fax machine or some shit? Like, what did you have email then? I don't even know. Brutal. Prudal.

Chisle and slate, my man. Chisle and slate. You're pushing out. You're pushing, Brian. Get the fuck out of the way, Brad. I got to put this in a thing. I got to put this in a fact machine. No, it's, I was, it was like some piece of crap like old compact running windows or something.

Yeah, baby. We didn't even have Mac laptops then. Daily News is kind of cheap, to be honest. But so, yeah, but we're, and then we're emailing it in. But, but yeah, like you're just, that's why I say stress. What people ask about what's the overriding feeling covering that time is stressed because, like, there's the chaos and the tensions of Shaq and Kobe and all the drama going on there. there's a lot of great basketball, but between all the chaos and drama, which, look, it's not my chaos and drama, but I'm immersed in it every day. It can't help but affect you on some level. Plus, just like I say, the churn, the deadline, the competition. It's only later that you look back and you go, damn, I saw some pretty cool stuff. And I got to cover some amazing players. In the midst of it, you're focused on the job, you know? And you might have this quick moment of, oh, holy crap. And that happens. Like there's a moment we, oh, man, wow, wow, that was amazing. But then it's right back to bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, on the keyboard.

Yeah, wow. Man, I know we got to get you out here, but there's a segment we like to call on that you, or since you are a guest host, you are required to participate. Uh-oh. It is called Real One of the Week where we shout out a person, an entity or an organization that won the week, Howard Beck. So I'm going to go first because I didn't give you prompt on this. We just went right into it.

So I'm going to give you some time to figure that out about 30 seconds. I am going to go. I forgot the homie's name. but he is at curfew and in Memphis. He is a fan of the podcast. I was talking to one of the homies. I went to go get some food out here in Memphis. I was talking to one of the homies.

And he recognized my voice from the podcast and just said, what's up? He was the server. So shout out to the homie. I forgot your name, bro. But I love Memphis and I love you. So shout out to you. Shout out to curfew.

Make sure y'all tap into curfew and go get the grilled octopus appetizer, which is amazing. It's to die for it. It's awesome. It's right by FedEx Forum. It's really great. Shout out to the homie from Memphis and shout out to all my homies from Memphis. I'll be back at some point. I love you. That's my own of the week. Recognized by your voice. Damn.

Yeah. Logan, man, dude. That's all new levels of fame right there, man. Like, that's impressive. I'm still stunned when somebody like recognizes just me like in a subway or something, which happens occasionally. I'll get like a what-up back because they're not because they're fans of mine. They're fans of Zach Lowe. Let's be honest. I saw Zach Lowe last night. He's a good, one of the first times I was actually talking to him. Great dude.

Phenomenal dude. Also friend of the show. Zach's the best. I'm still not used to. It's still jarring to me when anybody even recognizes my face. But like by voice, like dude, you're, that's all new levels right there, man. You're the real one. You're got to be the real one of the week.

We got to hang out. We had dinner in Brooklyn. We hung out for an entire Nets jazz game in which we like paid attention to maybe like five plays because we were just too busy like, you know, bullshit in about. the NBA and life and careers and stuff, which was fun. It was great, man, because you and I've known each other for a while, but we haven't really had that time to just, like, sit down and we just have great conversation. We became like BFS in that game. We became like BFS, bro. That was awesome. It was cool. It was really tight. Thank you. That was great. That was great. No, man. I'm glad you

got to spend some time out here. I'm looking forward to whatever is coming from your trip out here, which I assume was fruitful. And can't wait to see all your stuff coming in the rigger. Man, thanks so much, man. Make sure you check out Howard Beck on the crossover pod. Yeah, crossover pod. I got that. Yeah, yeah.

So you check that out. That has been our Thursday edition of real ones. Make sure you check this out real quick. Hold on. I'm about to put this a little slate together. Sasha, trying to make Sasha Mac proud. All right. In the meantime, before we see you guys on Monday,

make sure you check out upside high. Make sure you check out. Group chat. Make sure you check out the answer. I don't have the list right now. I'm just going to keep on going. I'm keeping on going. Make sure you check out the void.

Ball in the void with KOC. Make sure you check out the mismatch. I saw Chris Vernon. Berno is a character. Saw him for the first time. Met him in person in Memphis. And also, let's keep the propaganda going. Raj's not here, but I'm going to keep it going.

Make sure you check out with R2C2 with who? Oh, wait, Roger Bell's not here. That is C-C-Sabathia. Baleo legend Cresside Clown Make sure you check out Black Girl's songbook

Season 3 is here with Town Legend Daniel Smith We'll see you guys on Monday Shout out to Beck Shout out to the free world Hala We'll see you guys next week