The Ringer NBA Show - Are the Knicks Good or Are the Hawks Just That Bad? Plus: Solving the Sixers and Cutting Bait SZN. | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 18, 2019

The New York Knicks win their third game in four against the Atlanta Hawks, exposing the Hawks’ roster construction issues and illuminating a larger problem with rebuilding in the modern NBA (1:20). The Philadelphia 76ers have proved themselves to be an elite defensive team, but can they live up to the championship predictions without a potent offense (32:29)? And finally: Now that free agents from the summer can be traded, it’s time to cut bait on some valuable players in ill-fitted situations (41:32). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer NBA show is presented by State Farm. Just like basketball, the game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a State Farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected and help you handle whatever life throws your way. You know it was unacceptable last night? It was the Knicks. The hard-charging, their back Knicks winning their third game in the past four. They beat the Hawks.

They put up 143 on Atlanta's defense, and while Atlanta's defense gives up lot of points these days. That's still impressive when everything around the Knicks seems to be in shambles. But get a teammate who could help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a state farm agent today about combining your home and auto insurance. Today's show is also brought to you by Mountain Dew. This NBA season, Mountain Dew, is all about the threes, the shot that's changing the game. When I was growing up in Connecticut, just a young Husky pup, I was obviously a big fan of Ray Allen.

I followed him throughout his career. And at one point, I believe in an NBA locker room when he was still with the heat, I made sure that he knew that I was from Yukon, and he was pretty excited about that. So he bleeds husky blue, and we appreciate that. Broughts you by Mountain Dew, the official beverage of the NBA. Do the Do. Basketball is very good. The maps are better without Luca.

Trey Young is a winning player. The calf should hold on to Kevin Love. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I am Justin Varyer. And joining me on the line, calling in from the home of Matisse Thibel. It's Chris Ryan.

What's up, buddy? What's up, man? I just got back home from Los Angeles for the holidays. I feel like I flew to New Zealand for some reason. So I was like up until three and then woke up like ready to start plowing the fields at like six in the morning. I have no idea what's going on right now. Yeah, I called my dad yesterday and he was just like coming back in from shoveling ice. And I'm just like, it's like 60 degrees here. So that doesn't sound great. But you are at the home of where the evolution of

Matisse Thibyl has begun. Can you feel the energy? It's an exciting time here. It's weird because it's like the Eagles are still in contention. So even on the way in, like the talk was mostly about the Eagles and the Cowboys this weekend. Jesus. But big game for the Sixers tonight against the heat. Even though they smashed the heat a couple weeks ago, it feels like we wrote about the heat on the ringer. Kevin O'Connor wrote a great piece about their positionless basketball. And I've been seeing other pieces pop up.

You can tell that a lot of these mainstream media outlets are in the pocket of Big Miami. And that's okay. That's okay. Everybody loves something new, but we'll see what happens tonight. Okay. Isaac is also here. He is back from Tatooine. Baby Isaac, how are you?

Jaku now, now that we're in the sequel trilogy. Okay, I don't know what that means. We're going to talk about a few things here. The trade wins are starting to blow a little bit more. So later on we're going to talk about Drew Holiday, and it seems like, based on some recent reports, he might be available. We'll talk about all the implications of that. We'll also talk about some other guys that teams could be ready to move on from.

A couple guys that are, we're going to call that time to cut bait. But first, we want to start with the game of the night last night, which was Tuesday, Hawks and Knicks. The Knicks are back, baby. The Knicks won 143 to 120. The Knicks have now won three of their past four miraculously. I'm pretty sure that coincides right when David Fisdell got fired. The thing that we want to talk about, though, specifically Chris wants to talk about,

is just how bad things have gotten in Atlanta. I think they have lost now, what is it, six straight? Yeah, six straight. They've given up $150 twice this season. They regularly seem to get tagged with $120, $130. It's not only just like a bad defense. It's like a bad defense to someone who's never seen basketball before. If you had never seen a basketball game before,

you'd watch the Hawks and be like, oh, they should probably stand in front of the other guy, right? or somebody should jump here. And you can just see on the most superficial surface level, there's something really wrong with this team. Yeah, so after that four and six start, I think a lot of people had some high hopes. Trey Young looked like,

if not Luca Donchich level, good, just a guy that who could like generate, could kind of like push a team into contention. I think people were hoping that the Hawks would be kind of a dark horse playoff contender this year. Unfortunately, they have gone two and 16 since they lost Trey Young for a bit there to end. injury. John Collins is still out because of that positive test for banned substance.

And so you look at what's out there. They're just like, they're trying to outscore teams and it's just not working in part because even for a team that puts up a lot of points, it just doesn't seem like they have much of an idea of who they are in offensive as well. I don't really know what to make of this team. It's just really disappointing that one of the kind of darlings coming the season just hasn't really lived up to expectations, I think. Yeah, well, let's talk about why they're darlings, right? Because I think that everybody got very excited by this concept of Golden State East that Travis Schlank was going to build a team in the mold of the Warriors

with an electric game-changing point guard in Trey Young, a confident three-point assassin in Kevin Erder, and a bunch of really fungible, switchable, long defenders like D'Andre Hunter, D'Andre Bembrey, et cetera, et cetera, John Collins. And then they had some smart veterans here and there, like Evan Turner, or even like Alex Lenn, who's, like, pretty useful.

And it just seemed like they were building the right way. But as somebody personally who's been through the rebuilding wars, it's hard. And it's very rare that you come out with a team with this many kids and immediately find yourself scratching around the eight-seed, seven-seat. And you think about the teams in the Eastern Conference, even though the Eastern Conference in years past has been ridiculed.

Like, the teams that are in the eighth and seventh and sixth seeds are teams that are really average. And I mean that as an absolute compliment. I mean, like the Charlotte Hornets, the Orlando Magics of the world, it's really hard to make the playoffs, man. Yeah. And it's even harder to be a good basketball team when you don't know how to do it.

And that's what I see every night when I watch the Hawks is a team that not only doesn't know how to win, but is sort of given up on the idea that they are capable of winning. Yeah, after the 2019 draft, I think everyone wrote their stories about how different of an approach the Hawks were taking to rebuilding. It seemed like based on their picks from this most recent draft, they picked DeAndre Hunter. They traded up to get him because they felt like he fit with what they already had in Tray Young, Kevin Herder, and John Collins. He would fit into that kind of like three-four mold. He'd be a defender. He'd shoot a little bit, but wouldn't be just their

number one, number two, or perhaps even number three option. And then they go and get Cam Reddish, a guy who again seemed to fit within a projected starting lineup, I think you could say that they didn't necessarily pick for talent or the best guy available. They definitely passed up on Darrius Garland, a guy that people were high on going into the draft. Kobe White, another guy people were high on, although both those guys have struggled in this draft class doesn't look good. But it's interesting to see it play out because what I look out on the floor now, especially with Collins not out there, it does seem like they're just kind of light on talent, not only in support of Young on the offensive end,

you're pretty much relying on Jabari Parker, but then just from then on, the depth on this team is just really puzzling. And that's the one thing I think a lot of people highlighted and flagged going into the season. Like, Evan Turner is not a guy you should be relying on for a significant benchmen. It's for a team that is supposed to compete for the playoffs.

And so you have to wonder, I don't want to go too far and to say that, like, there's something wrong here, but I don't know if there is, far along as we all expected them to. And I don't even know of next year if they get another draft pick if it's really going to solve everything.

I'll definitely say that there's something wrong there because I was watching that Knicks game and you're seeing these YouTube mixtape highlights of Trey Young doing crossover stepback threes from the logo. And you know what the reaction is? A bunch of guys on the bench who look like they're stoned doing like a mild golf clap.

But when Jabari Parker gets a putback, dudes jump up out of their seats. So I'm not like reading too much into it. I mean, Trey Young noted Hawks historian has already called this the low point of their season. And they're already having closed door meetings. They had one after the Pistons game. They had one last night after the Knicks game.

Lloyd is obviously coming from a perspective of like having gone through some tough years in Philly with Brett Brown. He thinks he knows how to bring this team along slowly. But I think one of the problems is that when you've got somebody like Trey who obviously thinks that he deserves to take 25 shots a game, that he is supposed to be in the top 10 of usage in the league. I don't know. The guys around him don't seem to be buying into him

as the alpha of the team. But Trey is definitely playing like it, and you get what you get, which is the 27th ranked defense, the 29th ranked net rating, the 26th rank offense. I mean, this is just like a bad, bad team. And it's interesting to look at,

look around at these teams that have gone all in on youth, like the hawks and the bulls and a couple of other teams, I wonder which one of these teams will be like the next Phoenix Suns who are like, you know what, we really need, we need Aaron Baines, and we need Ricky Rubio, and we need guys who can come in here and get us closer to 500 than the lottery. Yeah, I mean, the Orlando Magic are really the shining example of a team just caught in the middle. They tried to do the Oklahoma City Thunder method and just kind of build via the draft. Unfortunately, they didn't take. bank hard enough. They didn't get the elite prospects they needed. And all of a sudden, I mean,

look at them now. They're still not really out of this weird middle ground where they're trying to just assemble some sort of core, but it's really not working. And here they are in the eighth seed, kind of competing still with teams like the Charlotte Hornets. Yeah, I don't know about the Hawks. It's a weird one

specifically because it does, like you mentioned, it does seem like, even though Trey Young has the support of like Cuevo and the trap caucus in Atlanta, The trap caucus. Is Elizabeth Warren leading in the trap caucus? Yeah, she's definitely the rep there.

Elizabeth Warren has a trap for that. Right. I think it's a lot harder to really get behind those sorts of Trey Youngisms when you're just not winning. Because like, look at Luca Dantje. Everything is going to come back to that Luca Dantzsche trade, I feel like. Not only for the Hawks, but like for the league at large. Like, that's really just a formative trade for the next wave of what we're going to see in the NBA.

And yeah, Luca takes some ridiculous. shots at the end of the games. I've complained about that in the past. Most of them go in, which is nice. But it's easier to get behind that when you have the best offense in the league, and all of a sudden you're just this surprise contender, whereas the Hawks are languishing with six wins, and now you're competing with more like the Cavs and in that sort of situation. It's especially bad because the two picks that they got, the extra pick that they got from the Luca trade came in a draft that seems like it's like just terrible. There really hasn't been much coming from that draft.

And so that was supposed to be the added value on top of Trey in order to not worry about the fact that Luca had been so good. Last year it looked good because, oh, Trey is showing signs of life and we have this extra value. But all of a sudden, they have their team. It's Trey plus. Yeah, right, exactly. I mean, it's so fascinating. You mentioned Cleveland in there. It's like when you look at those three different situations, we take four, because I think we should bring the Nix into this conversation, too.

If you look at the Knicks Hawks, Bulls and Cavs, right? The Knicks are kind of hedging, right? And God knows the Knicks are a dumpster fire for all sorts of different reasons. And they just brought in David Blatt as a consultant, even though they've won three out of four. They're red hot, uncut gems in theaters. It's all happening for them. But it's like each team is going about this with a different coaching philosophy. Lloyd Pierce, arm around the shoulder, motivator, collaborator.

trying to basically bring players in on the process of coaching themselves and trying to make them take accountability and sort of be participants in their own careers. Then you got somebody like Jim Boylan who's obviously a little bit more of a taskmaster, a little bit more of a like run, run, win sprints all day long until your eyes fall out of your head. And in my day, we used to walk uphill backwards to get to work. And then kind of somewhere in the middle is John Beline, where it's like, I have a very specific system I want you to run. And I, I'm good at development, but at the same time, I'm running this like a college program. So I'm making guys like Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love work on drills that they probably haven't done in 10 years.

You can go about it any different way. But the major takeaway from it is that if you're going to bet on youth, you do still have the chance of betting on the wrong kids. And if that happens, you're almost just as screwed as you are when you tie up a ton of money in average to above average veterans. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's really the difference between teams that did it a certain way before. It seems like the Thunder model caught on and everyone tried to build through the draft, whereas a team like the Clippers have now popularized this belief in the Nets as well, that you could build from the middle, that you could just build something that works.

And then if you manage your cap well enough, and I think a big part of it was also that they played in huge markets, you can lure those stars eventually to come join what you already have. And it's especially interesting in contrast to the Hawks who, yes, they're doing that a different way. But they're also a team that I think hopes that down the road when they have cap space, they've pretty much aligned it. So their young players should be on the rise, should be at the point where they could start competing if they just add, let's just say, Ayanis on top of what they already have. Now, that's probably not going to happen. But, you know, Elena isn't the worst market, although the fan base is a bit sleepy. Like, players seem to love it.

They are sleepy. And also it's like Atlanta has been an attractive destination for NBA players to live for a very long time. And they haven't gone there. They have not been a player in free agency for what 10 years? I mean, have they ever been a player in free agency seriously? No, they've like nipped at the heels at some guys, but no one has really ever gone there except for Joe Johnson. They had L. Horford and Paul Millsap, but, you know, those guys weren't front line like Kevin Durant style superstars. No, you bring up the nets.

It's interesting, like, the idea of building from the middle. I mean, those guys are a lot of players from outside of the lottery, really playing well for the nets. And you kind of look at the magic, and you're like, I wonder if the magic view volts as essentially, like, if he turns into just like a slightly worse version than Dinwiddie, like, are we in business here? Are we talking about being a regular playoff team? And that's so far away from where the Hawks are. I thought it was just really interesting. Hey, I wanted to ask you, though, so after watching last night's game,

Carrie Bradshaw voice, I couldn't help but wonder, taking the Dolan Steve Mills out of it, would you rather be the Knicks or the Hawks over the course of the next five years? Oh, God. Are we already at that point? Well, would you rather have RJ Knox and Robinson

plus their picks and the two Mavs firsts? Or the Hawks with young Hunter, Herder, and Reddish, and a bunch of mildly interesting draft picks along with their own. That's tough. I like Robinson. RJ. I know you do.

I know you do. You love RJ. I don't know how much I love RJ. But, well, I would just gravitate toward what is known. And Trey Young, at the very least, is, like, dynamic elite offensive player. Like, he warps the court on offense based on not only his ability to shoot from deep, but also his passing. And the question I have in my mind. my mind is how far can you get with a team based around Try Young?

I think they could be a playoff team. I think you can easily assemble a good team around him, but ultimately are you going to get to the point where it's like, oh, well, you can't build a defense with him, you can't really cover him. So I don't know. I would probably lean Hawks. But I think it's closer than people think. I agree with you, but I do think it's really maybe one of the most underrated,

most difficult things in the NBA is getting all of your young guys to graduate at the same time. And getting young, herner, hunter, hunter, reddish, all on the same developmental page. If Trey Young's already like, I need help in that locker room,

which he's alleged to have said, that's a bad sign. That's a bad sign. Yeah. The Hawks do have a ton of cap space coming up. Their books are pretty pristine. All three of their most

just expensive contracts. Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner, Alan Crabb. God, I forgot about Alan Crabb. Come off next year. The problem is next year, there really isn't anyone to go and get. So you'd expect them to perhaps just rent out their cap space yet again and roll it over again, which means another year of this.

Also, we just don't have a lot of evidence of marquee-free agents saying, I'll go to the bad team. Yeah, if you take... Not recently. If you remove the Dolan aspect of it, the Knicks are automatically, I think, back in the running for a lot of these guys. Unfortunately, for Nix fans, the Dolan aspect is the one thing they can't remove. I know. It's gotten to the point where, like, it's hard to generate content around the Knicks just being bad because the same thing keeps happening. And if, like, this fan-sided blogger realizes that it's, like, Jim Dolan, that is the issue, it's hard to really, like, wrap your head around just like any other of the specifics each time this comes around. Does this David Blatt news mean anything to you?

It's just weird. Like, last I heard from David Bloss. Because he retired from coaching. Yeah, I don't know. really what David Blatt is up to? Because the last time I checked, he was with Olympiacos, and then he parted ways with the team. I think there was also

he found out he had MS, and I didn't know if he had what was going on there. And so all of a sudden, he's back, and he's back with the Knicks. It seems like the role he's playing is pretty insignificant, but I don't know. It's a very weird move. Yeah, I don't know what David Blatt is doing

here. I think it's probably to oversee coaching a little bit without actually coaching, which you know, that always goes super well. When you've got a guy who's not the coach but is there to kind of manage the coach, I can't think of a time when that hasn't worked out. Yeah, I think Black got a raw deal in a lot of ways with the Cavs.

Me too. But I really wouldn't go to him as someone who would be on the managerial side. It seemed like that was the one part he probably struggled with the most trying to like tap into a LeBron, Kyrie, Kevin Love's sort of team. But I don't know. In conclusion, I guess, the Knicks are good?

Question mark. We were saying this at the beginning of the season. They're not good, but I'm not sure that they're not worse. I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather be a Knicks stockholder than a Hawk stockholder in the next five, six years. Yeah. Well, one team that I think is doing worse these days would be the Pelicans. Yeah, man, this is a good example of another team that I think everybody was like, oh, I'm a Jackson Hayes expert, Keeling Alexander Walker.

I got all the tape on this guy. And, you know, rightly so, I think the ceiling with Zion is playoff team this season. And the problem is, is I don't even know if that roof has been built yet because we just still don't have any real tangible idea about when Zion's coming back. We understand that he is basically a load-bearing structure now to continue my building metaphor. He's apparently able to put weight on his knee and able to kind of do some workouts. but David Griffin's like, it's going to be a minute. And in the meantime, they are in a nosedive. Yeah.

So they lost again last night to the Nets at home in a game in which I don't think either team or combined, I don't think they had 100 points at halftime, which is particularly bad because the problem with New Orleans throughout this run in Alvin Gentry has often been the defense. The offense has been there, and yet they couldn't even score against the Nets.

That was their 13th straight loss. that is a franchise record. They're now six and 22. I mean, they're pretty much done. Any playoff hopes they have are over at this point. Zion can only do so much. And so the vultures are starting to circle. We're starting to get toward trade season.

The December 15th deadline just passed where all the free agents that signed or most of the free agents that signed over the summer are now eligible to be traded. And all of a sudden, Drew Holiday is starting to show up in Mark Stein's tweets. So yesterday, he mentioned that, JJ Reddick is unlikely to be traded.

Zion Williamson and Brandon Ingermark are considered untouchable, but, and this is Stein's quote, yet what that also means is Drew Holiday is indeed available via trade. Leagues sources say it would surely cost a significant amount to pry him away from the Pels, but this is a notable change in status given how unavailable Holiday was to interested teams last season.

Sounds like he's going. Like it seems like either Drew has made it clear or the Pels have just like embraced their future as a full rebuild, but it seems like he would go at the deadline. Yeah, I mean, he's easily the best player probably available, right? I mean, he's better than Kevin Love. Yes, especially considering his value on defense. And in fact that, like, you could fit him into so many different situations.

You could put him on the heat tomorrow, and he just doesn't take away what they've already built this season. Right, exactly. And I think they, you know, you'd have to consider he's a win now player, because of what he costs, but he is a two-way player. You're not going to have to make any kind of massive over-corrections for his defense.

I mean, he's an excellent defensive player. Where do you think is his best destination? This is an interesting one. I think a lot of teams that feel like they need to do something here or they feel like they need to take advantage of this season, especially, are going to be lining up for them. The two teams that I think are going to be at the front of that line are Miami, as I just mentioned, and then Denver.

I think Miami is the most interesting one just because Drew's the type of guy where he would fit in right now and he would raise their ceiling from a team that could make it to the Eastern Conference finals to all of a sudden a finals contender. I think it would cost them some of the young guys

that they've built this year. I think too many other young guys. I think too many. So give me your mock Miami deal for Drew. So this is, the one that I think also DJ Foster mentioned last week when he proposed this trade, or at least a version of it. I think you need to give up both Tyler Hero, our guy, and Kendrick Nunn, so two rookies who are right at the front of the line for rookie year this year. And then salary filler, which is a little

complicated because Myers-Lennard is an expiring contract, but then you have a couple guys with another year left. I think you could either trade Kelly Olinick or Dionne Waiters. The tradeoff there is that waiters is just dead salary for next season. He's not going to help you at all. He's just going to be out on a boat near your marina. And so you probably have to like a fix a first-on draft pick. And then all of a sudden, like, you look at the Miami Heat's like, picks owed is one of the more insane pages I've ever seen.

They're like, I don't think they have. It's like they have such a Ponzi scheme going right now. It's not even that. It's like, it's like a big media or tech corporation that's like entirely dead. Like when the note comes in, they're like, Pat Riley would be so far into the ocean, it doesn't even matter. He'll be just like off the keys. You can't touch him international waters.

But one day there is going to be a real reckoning in Miami. Or maybe not. Maybe not if they can keep digging up the Kendrick Nuns and Duncan Robinson's of the world. Maybe they'll always be competitive and it's just they're just good at evaluating talent. Yeah, I think it's so fascinating what they've done. They've been able to turn guys from the scrap heap, none, the biggest example of that this season, and turn them into legitimate players like Derek Jones Jr. Another guy who had bounced around the league,

all of a sudden he's playing minutes for them. And they've also done a good job, pretty much just punting on the second round of the draft. Their second round picks owed is really something to behold. They don't have one because it isn't subject to the Steppian rule. And so they could just trade everyone that they have. And they don't have a second round pick until 2027. But they've managed to really find really good players in the middle of the draft.

Hero is a prime example. of that. Bam out of bile all of a sudden is playing like an all-star and then Justice Winslow, another guy I think. So I think you could do hero none salary filler, whichever guy you could stomach if you're in New Orleans Lennox or Waiters and Leonard.

Bam is playing like the de-aged Irishman version of Draymond right now. He's amazing. Right. Watching him just run the court and just bring the ball up the core is incredible because he has like the body of a guard and yet it's almost just like he's wearing like 30 winter

coats. So, big future there. So let me ask you this. There's already been some talk about talk. I mean, whether or not we're just doing this because we can't help ourselves, but there's already been discussion about the idea that Miami is a Janus destination.

So if you're the heat and you've, I guess you could say you've been burned in free agency before, thinking you're in the mix for somebody that you're not or having free agents leave, and you've kind of carefully rebuilt this team. you found Jimmy Butler who, you know, is so happy in Miami, has never been happier, so happy, he just is so happy to be home. Right. Like, are you looking at the Eastern Conference this year with Milwaukee as like a juggernaut,

Philly kind of finding their footing, Boston capable of ripping off like double-digit win streaks? And are you thinking to yourself, screw going for Janus or whatever, like having the flexibility we need, let's go get Drew, even if it means we miss out. on Janus, or do you say, let's keep the powder dry and think about something in two years? Because I guess it depends on whether or not you're thinking of Jimmy Butler as a ticking clock.

Yes, I think they have, to a lesser degree than the Lakers last season, a LeBron problem. Their future is tied to one player, and it is a bright future for the next couple of years, but Jimmy Butler is already 30, and as we've seen, he's played a lot of hard minutes, and he just, what was it, two years ago with the Timberwolves had to undergo meniscus surgery on his knee.

And so I think they have a very limited window already. And the East is soft enough that, yes, Yannis is playing really well, but I still think the playoff questions we had about them last season that led to them getting beat by the Raptors are still there. The Sixers, who knows what their playoff rotation is going to be. We can get to that later. I think this year, surprisingly enough, might be their window to really go for it. Yeah.

And I mean, with Drew, let's say they don't sacrifice pretty much most of what they have. They end up just getting rid of some young players and some salary flotsam. I think all of a sudden you're talking about them in a three-way race between Milwaukee, Philadelphia, and Miami for the East. I think all of them have a legitimate shot. That's all you need. But I feel like they are in that conversation right now without Drew Holiday. And I think that, yeah, there's a question about whether, like, none and Harrow will have the usual. rookie wall, rookie dips,

inconsistency, and whether or not you can trust a team that young in the playoffs. But if I were them, I think I would run it out with this team. I like Drew Holiday a lot.

Do you think that Drew Holiday was so underrated that now he's become overrated? Yes. Okay. I think he's very good and I think that it gets overlooked sometimes

just because most of his value comes on the defensive end. But at the same time, it feels like we've been talking about that a year, especially once Anthony Davis pulled his shenanigans last season, everybody wanted to gravitate toward Drew and talk about Drew and how good he is. You can't be overlooked when people keep talking about how overlooked you are.

But I do feel like you could just plug him into what they have right now, and it's an immediate upgrade because it just doesn't take the ball away from Jimmy. And Jimmy, him, and Bam on defense is an absolutely, like, just dominant defensive trio. Do you like Jimmy Bam, Drew more than Simmons, Thibble, and Richardson as a perimeter defensive trio? That's a tough one. Why don't we take a break? Because I do want to talk about the Sixers a little bit more in depth with you. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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Site credit is non-withdrawable and expires 14 days after receipt. Terms apply. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or in West Virginia visit www.orghumpler. Or in Indiana, call 1-800-9 with it. And now back to group chat. All right, we're back. It's Chris, it's Justin, it's Isaac. You know what I was just thinking about? I was just thinking about the two oral histories that I want more than anything in the world.

Number one, what happened to the new Star Wars trilogy between the production of The Last Jedi and the production of Rise of Skywalker? And in two days, people are going to get that joke. Yeah, I don't get that. Two is how the hell did Miami get Portland to take us on White Side? Oh, my God. Because that's the main thing with this Miami thing is that they essentially transferred

all the bad energy on that team to Portland. Yeah, I mean, I think a first round pick helps. Sure. But if you're Miami, you're like, what's a first round pick? I know. Yeah, it's really paid off. I'm surprised at how well things have gone in Miami. I think people expected them to be better. But Jimmy is just playing almost like,

he's like a top 10 guy. I'm trying to think where we put him in our top 25 list that we published a week ago. I think he was like seven. He's a legitimate number one guy. It's funny. I think he showed flashes of this in Philly, but ultimately, I think he was right.

I think he isn't like one of three. I think he's at his best when he is the clear-cut number one. Right. Yeah. All right, well, let's get into the Sixers. You want to talk about the Sixers? Yes, please, yes.

Tell me what's going on with them because even though they're doing well, I really can't get a good, read on them? Well, they are who we thought they were going to be, which is a patchy offensive team that is defensively, absolutely, like, stunning. I think that the reason why people are having a hard time wrapping their mind around them is because it's hard to really appreciate and understand good defensive teams that are average offensively. And that's what the Sixers are. They're like a what top 15 offense.

And I don't know what their defensive rating, like what their defensive ranking is, but they are certainly capable of being the best defensive team in the NBA. But they are a puzzle, man. I mean, like, we're going to have, we can have the same podcast. We could have the same podcast that we had in early November.

We could do it now. We can do it in February. It's the same team. They're going to have problems executing and getting baskets in the fourth quarter. They don't have a, go to a option, number one option in the fourth quarter. And at their best, they're consistent.

At their best, Tobias Harris is a great avatar for this team where it's like, oh yeah, Tobias Harris got 24 tonight. That's pretty good. You know, it's the same thing for Simmons where I heard, I think Rich Hoffman talking about this on Nate Duncan's podcast, where it's just like Simmons just puts up these really good statistical numbers that you're like, how did I not notice that? And they are just like a pond that you stare into and you see,

whatever you want, reflected back. Right. Yeah. I was just watching the episode of The Crown where our guy, Winston, was doing that as he painted his lovely paintings. Is that you? Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. I'm Winston Churchill just staring off.

I need a little bit of objectivity here. What do you think? I'm just torn. I think a lot of the things that you just mentioned. But I guess for me, like the issue of the playoffs looms over a team like this. I think teams like the Bucks, teams like the Sixers. It's hard not to look at the bigger picture because they're winning and we all expected them to win and they're going to finish one, two, three, four in the east. But that's not the issue.

They built a team specifically to win in the playoffs and take advantage of this window and make to the finals. And I look in the issues that I was still concerned about are still there. At the end of the games, are you still rolling out Ben, Josh, Tobias, Al Horford, and Jolm Bede? and is a team like Miami who's a little bit more flexible is going to spread you out a little bit more and has some of, I don't know, girth, whatever you want to call it,

in order to bang with... But Justin, not to sound like a homer, but why is it that the Sixers are eight and two in their last 10 and their victories have come, they smacked Miami in late November. Then they have beaten the Pacers, the Jazz, the Raptors, Nuggets, and Celtics in the recent, in like their last 10 games.

So why are we out? acting like this is some sort of anomaly. When this team is, I think, undefeated at home, they're like whatever they are on the road, but they are capable every time they play a team that's quote unquote as good or better than them, they are in that game. And like the last 10 games, they've been pushing people around.

So it's kind of strange that we're like, I don't know, what's wrong with the Sixers? I feel like because they're not exceeding expectations or maybe because the Bucks didn't take a step back this season, the Sixers are getting punished. Yeah, that's probably a good point. I guess I'm just worried about crunch time possessions and how it all fits together. I just think, like, if you have one weakness on the floor in a playoff series, that one's going to get picked.

And I just, if you have Ben, Al and Joel and Bede on the floor altogether, I just think it's just going to cause cramping. And it seemed like the heat who can shoot some threes, like the math advantage just swings that way. perhaps we're just, yeah, perhaps it's just a glass half-empty sort of situation where all these teams are kind of on the same level and it's really going to come down to matchups, which isn't as sexy or is interesting to talk about. Well, it'll be, I mean, by the time people hear this podcast, they'll probably, the Sixers will either be playing or have played the heat tonight.

So I wonder whether we'll know a lot more after tonight. Right. They're particularly interesting, though, around this time, because as we mentioned with Drew, it is trade season. It's weird to say, we're like really close to the trade deadline.

It's February 7th this year. I do wonder, like, are they the type of team that would mess with what they have? And probably the more important question is, can they do that considering the way that their contracts are stretched now?

So they are in a similar, not exactly the same, but to me, they're in a similar position as the Lakers, where there is not a ton they can do without substantially remaking the team on the fly for what would be what the fifth time in two seasons.

Like I was reminded the other day that they started last season with Covington, Sarge, and Fultz. Like that seems like five years ago. Right. So Jimmy Butler's been on three teams. So the Sixers, I probably don't want to go through another situation where their teaching Simmons and Embed how to play with another

core. They simply can't do that. And that is a long way of saying Josh Richardson is the most attractive trade piece they have. And I don't think they're going to trade Josh Richardson in the middle of the season. I think this is the team

that they're going to go into the postseason with maybe looking for either, I don't know, like a stretch five if they're available or some kind of shooting help. Yeah, I mean, if you want to trade Richardson, it also becomes difficult because he's only making

10 million this season and it still feels like we're at the very least one season away from pulling like the Ben emergency lever and just like just separating him and Embed and again if you wanted to do that if you wanted to go nuclear $8 million

this year because his max extension doesn't kick until next year they would be an interesting Drew trade companion with the Pelicans just because I think that Drew probably a leave it's a lot of the concerns you have with Ben. I think he could swing off ball

and stretch the floor a little bit and you could play more through and be in the post and that would just be your team. There would be a clearer identity, which maybe it's more for us in the media. I can't speak to the rest of the Philadelphia fan base man,

but you would have a hard time convincing me the intellectual gymnastics that I would have to do to understand how we would get to the end of the process and trade Ben Simmons for Drew Holiday who we started with. That would be a little bit complicated I forgot about that, yeah.

Wait, I don't know if we've ever talked about this. If they had to separate those two, if you had to pick a side, where would you go? Where would you lean Ben or Joe? Heart says Ben. Right? Ted says Joe. Yeah.

I think that's, yeah, I think that's the way to go. Like, everyone talks about Ben is the one to go. I'm sure 85% of the people just heard me say that are just like, what are you talking about? How could you pick a guy who's like a flashy passing, really good defending, but has like this. huge, huge hole in his game player over a guy

who could be a Lajuan. And I don't know, I don't know. Like, sometimes, like, throw numbers out the window. It's just like, I like watching Ben Simmons play more than I like watching Joe On Beed. And I know that's nuts, but it's just how I feel.

Right. Yeah, I would lean the same way. And so we're actually going to talk about some other guys that teams might want to cut bait on this year. We're not cutting bait on the Sixers just yet. Yeah, because we're cutting bait on Joelle and B. You're over here first. Yeah. No, because cutting bait is different, I think, a little bit than tanking.

Okay. Explain this. I mean, it's not like this isn't like some huge philosophy. I think it's more of like a semantic distinction. But tanking would be, to me at least, trading like the best players you have because you know you're tearing it down. Whereas cutting bait, it feels a little bit more like midseason baseball trades where you're like, you know what, not this season. So let's get rid of a couple of these salaries. And I think that we're going to see a little bit more of a couple of a.

cutting bait trade deadline this season. I don't know that anybody who's going to get traded with a few exceptions here will actually swing a title race this year. Do you? No. I mean, Drew is one. I mean,

if he goes to Denver, let's say, are you looking at Denver any differently? Do they all of a sudden... Is he going to get Yokach in shape? I don't, man, that is he going to be his,

like, nutritionist? Right. Yeah, I don't know. And then you'd have to trade Gary Harris, who plays the same position as a better shooter. So you'd be better on defense if you're Denver, but I don't know if Drew raises the ceiling that much more.

I don't know. The one that I have earmarked is kind of the similar thing you were talking about about a team just packing it in for a season, just the reverse of that. I was watching the Suns play Isaac's Clippers last night, and although they ended up getting just smashed toward the end of the game,

this team just has been building for so long. They've been in this steady rebuild process for what seems like a decade now. I would not describe it as steady. Right. They've crawled through a river of goat shit and they have not come out on the other side just yet. But it just like there's a lot of veterans on this team and it makes a lot more sense. And D'Andre Aiton is back and all of a sudden you really have what you need to go for it. But I don't know if they're there quite yet.

And while their issues have come on the defensive end more on the. the offensive end. The one guy I was thinking about, as I was watching last night, is what if this team had Kevin Love? What if this team all of a sudden packages together some of its expiring contracts, which they have a few of them in Tyler Johnson, which is, I believe, like, 19 million, so you're most of the way there. And then, let's say, a Frank Komitsky, and maybe a 2020 protected first round pick if it

has to get to that point for love. and then the calves get off the salary, you won't be better... But if you're Cleveland, don't you want kids? Like, why would you trade just to get off of a couple of contracts when no one's going to sign with you anyway? It's a good point. I guess it's...

Because that's my thing here is that, like, when you look around, that makes sense mathematically. And in some other years, I could even see that happening. But if Cleveland's truly committed to the idea that, like, look, no one's going to choose to play in Cleveland, we're going to have to find our success through the draft, I don't really understand... I don't think that the...

You don't pick up the... unless it's a first round pick for Kevin Love. Cleveland is really in this trade limbo with Kevin Love because they probably value him higher than any other team in the league because he still is a productive player. He still will

make an impact on the young guys if they play with him. And yet I think a lot of teams around the league are looking around and see his contract which still has three years after this one at a max rate as a negative value. And so I don't know.

I think ultimately it makes way more sense to get rid of him than it does to keep him, especially because it seems like as this kind of whisper campaign about John Beeline continues, that Kevin Love might be the one at the center of a lot of them. You think so?

Well, I mean, by process of elimination, it seemed like Tristan Thompson came out originally when that story came out in The Athletic basically, you know, detaching himself from all of that. he said that publicly, which really only leaves a couple other contenders, and I think Kevin Love is probably at the front of that line. I would rather do, with the trade that you said, the love to Phoenix thing,

I'd do it if McHale Bridge is involved. And it's not even that I think Bridges is a superstar, but you're talking about a lottery pick value there. To me, getting Kaminsky to just house for two years to just then move him on, doesn't make any sense. Right. I think you could do it with that. I mean, maybe you don't get a first round pick, but you do get Bridges?

Like, Sarich, Bridges, and Johnson for Love works. So you would prefer some of the younger guys rather than a pick? Well, I'm just saying, does Phoenix even have picks to treat? I'm not even sure. But, like, I doubt Phoenix would give up a first rounder for Kevin Love in his twilight, right? You would have to really be committed to going all in this season. And it really, I guess it depends on how tired. That's idiotic to me.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I'm Phoenix and you do that, like, that's just, that seems really stupid. It really is, like, how much you believe in D'Andre Aitin as your rim-protecting five. He was, like, very good in the one game he had before he served that 25-game suspension on the defensive end. It looked like maybe he was coming around there. Less so last night, he put up big numbers on the offensive end, but there were times where they had the sons had to call a timeout,

and Monty Williams would immediately go to Aiton because he screwed something up. But I look at it on paper. Just hear me out here. Ricky Rubio, Devin Booker, Kelly Ubre, Kevin Love, DeAndre Ate.

That's a pretty good starting five. That's going to get you into the playoffs most years. And then you're pretty much giving up most of your depth such as it is for love, though. Right. Yeah, you still have some young guys.

Cam Johnson is still there. I'm trying to think who else. I think that's a lot of all of their young guys. But you still have few. future picks, you'd really have to just buy into this year and then if it doesn't go well, just like keep doing what you're doing anyway. I guess it also

presumably if it doesn't work out, you feel like you can flip love again next season, right? Right, right, yeah. There's that possibility and he would be a year older, but he would also have a year off of his contract, and it seems like that's a big issue for a couple teams. The next pair of guys I want to talk about here

Demardo Rosen and Lamarcus Aldridge. And I wanted to bring them up more because I again, like I guess the Sixers, I don't really have many answers or much to say here other than what the hell do you do? I don't know who would want to trade for these guys at this point and it does seem like the Spurs

more than any time in the Popavichara are probably leaning more toward being sellers than anything else at the deadline. Depends on whether or not it's the Papa Vajara anymore. So like if this is his last season, which I kind of find out hard to believe that we wouldn't get any kind of like victory lap although maybe he'll announce that at the

around the All-Star break and then the last few months of the season or his sort of goodbye tour and then he goes off and wins gold in Tokyo and that's like the end of his career but I find it like kind of odd like I can't tell what's going on there I do like some of their younger players

but it's it's kind of like it's sort of now or never to get out from under Aldridge and de Rosen like they're just going to go down in value and at this point, DeRosen is you're going to have to try and get somebody like Orlando to bite on him. Right. I think there was a question whether or not the Spurs would have to extend him earlier this season just in order to keep him on the team. All of a sudden, I would be shocked if he doesn't

opt into his second year of his contract for next season. It just seems like the issues that he has on the Spurs are going to be issues wherever he goes. And thus, I don't know who, who is going to be willing to trade assets and pay him 25, 26 million next year in order to continue to do this. Maybe the magic are at the point. They're desperate enough. They need some sort of jolt, and they really want to take advantage of this little, like, this kind of mini window they've assembled by going out and getting guys like Alphurukamino

and Aaron Gordon and all these other guys. I just, I don't know where he makes sense. Kevin O'Connor had that, like, that trade nugget a few weeks ago. about how the magic would be interested, but if I'm the magic, I don't want him on my team. I don't see how he makes a huge enough difference in 2019, you know?

Yeah, no, I don't know where the right call is for him. Same thing for Aldridge, where the only thing we've really heard is like the possibility that Portland could be interested in bringing him back, which seems weird to me. That didn't end great. So, yeah, I'm not sure what happens there.

This really feels like, and perhaps this is an obvious statement, that this is the year that the Spurs Magic just completely went away. It just seemed like even last year, we had convinced ourselves that their dearth of just overall talent didn't matter because Pop would be able to just fix everything.

But all of a sudden, it seems like just not ever competing in the big picture of the NBA has really kind of caught up to them. Pop would always say throughout the like the, the heady times that he really didn't do anything good. He just was able to draft Tim Duncan. And it was this nice joke and, you know,

really spoke to Pops' like demurring kind of personality. But I think he's right in a way because they've never really had to participate in the star trade. And, like, Lamarcus Aldridge was really the only marquee free agent they landed. But even he wasn't just a frontline guy and he really just didn't operate in the same way. And all of a sudden you're in a situation when you don't have Kauai. all of the miracles you work on the fringes aren't enough to just overcome the lack of just superstar talent.

Yeah, you know, so the most recent iteration of the Spurs kind of remind me of something that's happening to a few teams in the Premier League right now. Classic CR soccer analogy, which is essentially you've got a couple of teams that are playing, not necessarily on the same economic playing field as the rest of the top

four to six teams in the Premier League. and they're really, or they had been traditionally good at finding talent in lower leagues or in kind of like B, C-level European leagues like Belgium or, you know, French second division. And they were really good at finding these like diamonds in the rough. But essentially what happens is if the diamond mind dries up once, you're fucked because you don't have that backup of actually reliable talent. And if you're constantly losing your best players, which I guess you could just say the Spurs lost. one of their best players, but they pretty much lost the entire institutional memory of that team other than Popovich with the departures of Genoblee, Parker, Duncan, and Kauai all in this kind of three-year period. Then you get into this situation where you're hanging on by a thread and hoping DeJanta Murray is

this second coming of Kauai Leonard, which he probably is not. Yeah. They look like a small market franchise. Like one of these average teams, they look like the Pacers on a bad. year where they're just, they signed who they can sign and they're drafting from the middle of the draft, hoping that they can get, just strike it rich with the Paul George with the Kwai Leonard. And it just hasn't happened. And so they're just a middling team.

And it's a very weird experience. You know, Justin, another one of these, I'm sure that like the idea of cutting bait versus tanking is not as well developed as some of the great theories in American intellectual history. But the two other teams that I was thinking about, and I know that you wanted to talk about both, that I'm like, you guys could cut bait, so to speak, on a couple of your players, but not necessarily instigate any more of a rebuild

than you're already in, are the Thunder who have become sneakily pesky over the last week or two, and the Pistons. So both those teams have very expensive, but very interesting and useful. would be once were and on any given night could be stars. Do you think that there is any market for Blake, Drummond, CP3, or Gallo,

which I know runs a spectrum of financial and physical risk, but I'm curious what you think. Yeah, I mean, for some of them, yes, I would imagine that the Thunder are going to be huge sellers, even though they have played well and perhaps they want to like tap into. is some of that. Currently seventh with a positive point differential. Right. Seventh in the West. But they're 12 and 14 and if they made the playoffs, it would really be by default. And I just don't know other than getting like Shea some playoff reps, like how much more that really helps them.

And it's starting to look like if nobody's going to trade anybody, that Gallo seems like one of the better trade assets on the market, in part because if you wanted some things that Kevin Love did, you could get that without the cost. of taking on long-term salary. Gallo's on an expiring contract, and if you really wanted him long-term, you could also work out some sort of extension or just like under the table deal with him in order to go forward with that. But to me, like the Thunder are in the driver's seat,

perhaps on the trade market and also in a better position, the Pistons, because they know where they are. They have a clear directive. The Pistons, on the other hand, I don't know if they want to win, if they want to lose, and if they want to lose,

who needs Drummond and, Blake Griffin, now again injured Blake Griffin in 2019. It's very confusing. Yeah, the Pistons should just try to be the best that they can be with who they have, because I don't really know who they trade. Like, maybe, if anything, their younger players have more of a market than their stars. Like, I think that there's probably more of a Luke Kinnard market than there is a Blake Griffin market right now. Sure. Is that crazy? Well, yeah, I think trading for Blake is just, God, you're rolling the dice, and I don't know what team would be willing to do so. A lot of these teams that want to make the trade, this deadline would, like, theoretically be trying to go all in for this season.

Like, a Denver isn't going to trade for Blake and get rid of a guy like, I don't know, let's just say Gary Harris for the sake conversation and risk that all that they wouldn't, you know, that it wouldn't just push them completely over the top, right? Drummond's an interesting one just because you keep hearing about him he's been tied to the Mavericks I think more than any other team just because it seems like the Mavericks have some money coming up and they really only have a short window

to really add to their team before Lucas' contract becomes expensive I wouldn't do that I would if anything go the opposite way if I'm the Mavericks and look for more of a wing type of player No way I would do that yeah and so

if they're not, if he's not a fit there, then where is he a fit? He's a very good player and useful player. I just don't know considering the way playoff basketball is played in particular, like where he would really fit the best. Yeah, he's going to be a victim of like too many new school GMs and nobody being dumb enough to take him on. Right. I can see a smart franchise, like let's say the Celtics,

just finding a way to tap into like the best version of him. but then the Celtics are another team like we talked about with the Sixers and the Lakers. I just don't know if their contract combination allows them to trade for a guy who makes as much as a drummond without sacrificing just the guts of their team.

They would probably have to get rid of Marks Smart in that trade and that's just a non-starter at this point. Sure. Yeah. The one other team I did want to talk about kind of in a similar situation more as the Warriors.

So, DeAngel Russell is kind of on an island for the rest of this. season. Jemond Green is in there every so often. Steph Curry and Clay Thompson will see if they end up coming back. But it's really a showcase season for DeAngelo Russell. It's really the, what I was saying before in the preseason, kind of the, it's the,

before you ask for a trade, you show what you can do sort of season. I think ultimately it would probably make sense to trade Russell in order to divide up whatever his salary allotment is into several other players. I just wonder if they're going to get pushed this deadline by some other team in order to give him up now as opposed to in the summer

where it probably makes sense for them. What other team, like when you say that, are you thinking a playoff team, like an Orlando? Orlando's an interesting one. The one that I have circled and I think a lot of people

are starting to bring up is the Timberwolves. Just because the wolves were into Russell and were desperately trying to attract him in free agency, but they just didn't have enough money and all of a sudden he's getting signed and trade to Golden State. If I'm the Timberwolves, like, I think that makes a lot of sense. It would probably cost you a pretty penny. Like, I don't know why the Warriors would trade Russell for anything more than, like, two firsts, plus like probably Robert Covington and some salary to match it.

But I think slowly but surely you're wondering if a guy like Towns, like how much of a leash do you have with him? And Russell is not only his friend, but a guy I think who could really fit with what he has and what they've built there. So if you're the Warriors, do you do that for Covington and some sort of asset because you feel like you get offensive firepower. And if you're the Warriors,

you feel like you get a really good defensive player on a good contract in Covington. And then you're like, you're kind of looking towards next year and adding to your stash of whatever your first pick's going to be. But like, if you're the Timberwolves, like that's a really tough question right there.

Right. I don't know if I would do that. Honestly, like, I, the weird thing with Russell this season is that he is getting, this showcase season, and I feel like it's being met with a collective shrug. Yeah, I mean, he really hasn't just, like, blown everyone away, even though

he's really the only thing to watch there in the Bay. But I feel like people are more excited by Eric Pascal than they are by Russell. Right. I mean, Russell's been hurt a little bit. He also had a hand injury, so that kind of, like, slowed down momentum. But he's also not playing particularly well.

I mean, he's only shooting 45% from the floor in the past 10 games, so much since he came back. He's shooting 30% or excuse me, 37% from the field, 33% from 3. There really isn't a lot of help for him. He's probably getting double covered and he's probably drawing a lot of defensive attention.

But I don't know. I look at the wolves and it seems like they want to do the slow and steady approach. I don't know why they couldn't do that with Russell, a guy who's already ready to run with Carl Anthony Towns and they're already like their, their, their cupboard of young guys and Culver and Akogi.

Do you think you try to keep, if you're the wolves, do you think you'd roll the dice with Russell, Wiggins, and Towns? I guess you have to roll the dice with Wiggins. Because logically, that's three top three picks, right?

Right, exactly. You should have a core there. You should, that's basically what the Sixers and the Thunder and all these teams, like, that's the idea is to have as much top of the draft talent collected at once all entering

their prime at the same time. Right. I guess the question for the wolves is, what do draft picks really get you when you're already on Towns's second contract? The clock has started ticking this season. And while, yeah, if things don't go well,

they'll probably be back in the lottery this season and they'll be able to accumulate more assets. It seems like Erson Roses wants to take his time, he told hollow that, Paulo Getty for the Ringer for a story about

Point Wiggins that went up earlier this week. But I don't know, at a certain point, you really have to figure out this team because Towns is already a top 10 player in this league and he's just reaching a new height

and he's already at his peak. I think you really want to maximize what you already have there and just like not waiting too long. No, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. I guess, like, to me, if I, in some ways,

this season for Russell was supposed to be the, look what I can do when I am like the only option on a team. And in some ways, I feel like it's betrayed some of his limitations as a player because it's not dissimilar from where we started this conversation with Trey Young. He's going to get his numbers, but is he actually going to make the team around him any better?

Yeah, it's a great question. And that's a really, really bad Warriors team. So I'm not saying it's Russell's fault that they are what they are anymore that it's Steve Kerr's fault. It's not. It's like they just got hit with the worst, you know, basically domino of injuries that I can remember hitting a team. But I just don't feel like DeAngelo Russell on a night's night basis gives the Warriors any kind of shot to win. Right. It just goes out and gets his 31 points.

Yeah. And if the Warriors did cut bait at the trade deadline, if they really, if they really, just like cashed in on him as soon as possible. Then you start to ask questions about like, what did the Warriors know that other teams don't know? Because they're getting an up-close look at him for an entire season right now. And I do wonder if they looked at even the small sample of games that he played next to Steph and project ahead and say to themselves, well, you could only get so far with a Steph DeAngel backcourt considering the like the defensive complications presents.

And why not get a guy like Covington and some draft? assets to really just figure things out. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't make much sense, but I think the wolves, I'm just like, I really just want to see them maximize towns. And it just seems like as things go on,

their lack of depth, or lack of talent, it just isn't really producing as well as we thought earlier in the season. So you know what I think the actual overall theme of this episode is, feel free to do stuff. I don't think it's going to matter.

Right. Just because the clippers and the wakers. I think that's going to, I think that's going to be the kind of overarching theme of this trade deadline. is there's a bunch of teams that I feel like the Sixers, the Heat, for instance, shouldn't do anything.

I feel like they should just try to build cohesion in the team that they already have. I don't think they should sacrifice the future for the boost of a Drew Holiday. I certainly don't think the Sixers should blow up their team for the third or fourth time or fifth time in three years or whatever you want to sort of start the meter.

And then with the teams like we're talking about, like the Phoenixes, the Minnesotas, feel free, but it's not going to make that much of a difference. Right. Yeah, we're talking about it as if because the Warriors dynasty is just no longer there, that there's a clear path to the finals. And if anything, what this early part of the season has taught us is that the Bucks, the Lakers, and the Clippers are very clearly ahead of the pack in a lot of ways. And like last night was a shining example, although Isaac was really reveling in the Lakers losing a game for the first time. They were right there at the end against the Pacers, a game that they ultimately lost with LaBancers.

LeBron, Dwight Howard, Rejon Rondo, KCP, and I forgot who the next guy was as their crunch time lineup. A lot of Caruso down the stretch. There was a lot of Caruso down the stretch. And they almost won that game. And it was just purely based on LeBron. So I do feel like you're right. Yes, I think a lot of these teams that would potentially be pushing now would ultimately just incur the same thing. But I would throw the Pacers in there too.

I mean, I'm sure that they're going to be tempted to think about moving Miles Turner, especially with Sabonis emerging the way he has this season. But like, for what? Right. I don't know how much appreciably better the Pacers can get without especially upsetting the Applecart when they know they're getting Ola Depot back. Like, Ola Depot is their trade.

Yeah. And now that we talk about it, I do think maybe Turner for holiday also makes a lot of sense. I think we've talked about this in the podcast with Charks before. Are you legally allowed to have three holidays on one team? As long as it's traded before Christmas, yes. Okay. All right, let's wrap it up there.

We will not be back next week, and we won't be back the week after that. So this is your last group chat until the new year. It just so happens that our next two episodes would fall on Christmas Day and New Year's Day. So you will be without us for a couple of weeks here, but we'll still be running episodes at the Ringer NBA show. He-check, mismatch will be with you to take you through some of the next two weeks. So until then, for Chris, for Isaac. for sharks somewhere out there, I believe on a plane to Vegas for the G-Leaks showcase. We will see you.

Classic sharks. Classic sharks. Always going to Vegas. We will see you next time. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.