The Ringer NBA Show - Are the Nets the Best Team in the NBA? | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 19, 2021

Today we’re joined by ESPN writer Royce Young to discuss the Brooklyn Nets after their impressive victory against the Bucks without Kyrie Irving, and power rank the best teams in the league (35:00). Later, Justin, Tjarks, and Rob talk about CJ McCollum’s recent foot injury and more in another edition of Show and Take (55:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Jonathan Tjarks, and Rob Mahoney Guest: Royce Young Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly MBA group discussion where we were young in Oklahoma City for bloggers now. I am Justin Verrier joining me today, Jonathan Charks. What's up, guys? I'm going to need some boys to men Photoshop's pretty soon after that hardened quote. I'm sure our next panelist, Rob Mahoney, will be happy to sing to you, though. Maybe not, but can you guys believe the number of people out there who are saying they're going to be diminishing returns with all three of us on this podcast? Can you believe that? I would never. And joining us, our special guest, who was actually in Oklahoma City from ESPN, Royce Young. What is up, my friend? Literally young in Oklahoma City.

That was terrible fun. Wow. You know the Stephen Adams' welcome back video that they played for him the other day? They're now cycling through that and League Pass, like to the point where it was on all day yesterday, it's wild. And I know this is probably something everybody has said a million times. that this guy just at one point decided to be a centaur. You could literally see the progression

from this very like, like, spirited, young, handsome guy. And then he's just like, eh, I'm going to be a horse. Yeah. You kind of love me.

Pretty much. I need a bit. I need a bit. Got to have one. He decided like, I'm going to grow the mustache. And it's like, the mustache then became like,

kind of evolved into long hair. And then he just kind of kept everything. I asked him like, how long it had been since he'd cut his hair. And it's definitely been years. and I asked him if he was going to ever cut his hair. And he said, I don't know. So those were pretty in depth reporting there.

We're going to talk about some other OKC men here with the Brooklyn Nets with Royce. Then we're going to get into our top fives across the NBA. And then later we're going to get into some show and take with Robin Charks. But first, let's take a quick break. All right. So the Nets, pretty good. That was really easy. they beat the box yesterday, 125 to 123.

Royce, you've watched these guys grow from young O KCites. What stood out for you from their first two games here with James Arden? The first and foremost, Justin, is like, Kevin Durant can play with anybody, okay? And there's this kind of, you know, how's it going to fit together? How's it going to work? When it comes to Kevin Durant specifically, it does not matter. He's going to score at least 25, probably 30. He's going to do it efficiently.

he's the most versatile, gifted offensive player that the NBA has seen in a long, long time. So it's not like he needs the ball, doesn't need the ball, he can play any way you want him to play. The one thing that I think a lot of people do have to recognize, though, is there's kind of like this idea that Hardin and KD have played together so they can therefore sort it out. They really haven't played together because like the current incarnation of James Harden is not at all the same player that he was back almost 10 years ago in OKC. So, like, Katie and Hardin are sort of relearning each other to some degree. What everybody's asking themselves is, what does it look like, obviously, when Kyrie comes back? And that feels somewhat potentially combustible. Again, I think Kevin is going to be fine, but it's the Harden Kyrie element where, to me, you know, in OKC specifically, everybody spent so many years asking, does Russell Westbrook need to change?

Does he have to change his style of play? Does he have to evolve as a player? To me, like, right now, that question pertains to James Hardin. Does he need to change? Does he have to evolve? Because I don't know that he can hammer the ball in isolation for like 18 seconds at a time all the time. I think he needs to kind of rediscover O.K.C. Hardin to some degree,

where he's that kind of creative, offensive genius where he's running more pick and roll than he used. I think to going off Royce's point in these first two games together, I had this side in my piece today. Hardin's actually been holding the ball more than any player in the NBA in his first two games in Brooklyn. And that's the work now, but when Kyrie comes back, that's when we'll have to see more of the adjustments, like you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah, it seemed pretty easy, I think in part because it just seemed like both of them got their own time. They got the Bosch time to themselves where they just were able to be the top five scores in the league. And they just went about and did that. Katie did most of his damage from the midrange yesterday. Harden seemed like he was just doing hardened things. He was lobbying it up to the only available tall guy on the team. And then he was hitting stepback jumpers.

he was hitting that little floater in the lane when they hit when they dropped on him in coverage. But I think you're right. It is, I'm curious how this team adapts to Kyrie. And in particular, just like what it means for the other guys on this team. Because like if you're putting Kyrie in there, like, does that mean you're closing with Kyrie and Joe Harris now? And then like what happens to DJ? You assume like they'll find some other rent a big where they could just like take his minutes.

But do you want to close with the big? Do you want to close with Jeff Green, if only from, like, institutional knowledge? There was at one point I thought it was funny that, like, Jeff Green had a really good game. I think he was like four for five and three or something. He was hitting everything. But, like, Hardin tried to lob it up to him because he's so used to just like Clint Capella types. And then Green just wasn't tall enough. And it was just like, oh, yeah, that's actually the one main difference here.

But Rob, I'm curious, what you think in the meantime? Is there anything like that you saw maybe from these two games that they could take into the Kyrie era, which I believe is going to start on when the accordion reports. Well, first of off, first off, I wanted to clarify something, which is, you know, we didn't give Jeff Green his due in this reunion up top in terms of being with James Hardin and Kevin Durand. Really, I want to clarify whether Royce is officially, you know, in the tradition of George Martin as like the fifth beetle, is Royce the fourth member of the Browingtons officially? And can we induct him as such on this podcast? I was the cameraman. Yeah, I was, I filmed the video for them. Yes, Roe. Okay. I just wanted to make sure.

I do think that there's a lot they can take away into the Kyrie experience. And this has been a pretty chill onboarding period in terms of getting hardened in first, getting him in the door, making sure he's comfortable. The rotation stuff is where it's going to get interesting. And whose minutes come down a little bit, I think it would be healthy for DeAndre Jordan and Jeff Green to play a little less than they've had to. And weirdly enough, getting a point guard will do that just because he's going to be a starter. He's going to sop things up in terms of the rotation.

They're going to have to tweak things. But just in terms of the dynamic, you know, as we've addressed, the balance between Katie and Harden has been great. And just getting hardened to really defaulting as a playmaker, I think. And some of that is coming to a new team and wanting to make everybody happy. But we might have undersold how cool it was going to be to get hardened into that kind of role again, where he has lots of people to play off of and he's really looking to pass first, even as he's putting up 30.

I'm going to say, I guess Royce, I'm kind of curious, going back to the whole Katie Hardin thing. There's obviously being like a million words written about KD and Westbrook and Harden to an extent. What was their relationship like in Oklahoma City of those two specifically, Katie and James? Yeah, you know, they were honestly a lot closer than Westbrook. And Durant, I think that KD and Hardin were a little more, they related a little bit more. I think that they had a little more of a similar off-the-court mindset back in those days than Westbrook and they just kind of seemed to get along a little more directly. You know, I think that,

you know, as Rob kind of alluded to, there was that Burlington's video where they all sing song, but that wasn't the only video those three made together. And, you know, Westbrook was kind of, he was kind of like, Westbrook was sort of the like the odd man out to some degree. Like, they were all like really close and, you know, they got along really well. But Westbrook's a little bit of a loner and he didn't really do a lot of stuff off the court. So, you know, I think that Hardin and KD, you know, they tended to kind of gravitate towards each other. But again, to like what Rob's saying is that, you know, I think that for Hardin, one of the things that excites me, and I'll be completely honest, I am in that camp of I have not really enjoyed watching James Hardin

play over the last like four years. I haven't liked his style of play. I can completely recognize what an amazing player he is. He basically broke basketball, but it wasn't all that fun to watch. But rewind back to 2010, 2011, 2012 James Hardin, he was one of my very favorite players to watch because of the creativity that he played with. He was kind of a one of a kind. And so even if he taps into like 20% of that of like 2012 James Hardin, I'm really stoked to get to watch like that skill set of Hardin all over again rather than the guy that's like the ISO monster that just can dribble really well and do, you know, moves over and over again. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing they have going for them right now is

all of the players who got traded for this bonanza of draft picks, like Hardin is the most accomplished guy. Like, he's a top five player right now, whereas Anthony Davis had top five talent, but he really hadn't tapped into the player he is now until he got next to LeBron James. And it's just like, when you have that, the learning curve is a little bit different. And right now, obviously, they're playing without the handicap, I guess you could say, in some degree with Kyrie. But I don't know, man, I've seen this so many times before at this point. Like, I know nothing about anything at this point, but I've been around the league enough

to know that, like, there's this cycle of big threes that we go through where it's like, oh, man, do they have enough shots to go around? Like, there's only one ball. Like, what do we do here? And then they always figure it out because they're so goddamn talented. And I look around and like, this is probably the most offensive talent in a trio we've ever seen. I want to pause, like, what Justin just said too. He goes, the handicap of Kyrie Irving.

The handicap of like probably the best pure score in the league. You know what I mean. That's what I'm saying. That's how craziest team is, right? Yeah. Really, I don't know because he's Kyrie Irving. Doesn't it feel, though, that like Durant and Hardin as just a duo makes more sense? Isn't that a weird thing, though?

Because that's how I feel. And we've gotten a taste of it these first couple games. but it just feels like if you just had a team with Hardin Durant, they just make more sense with a good group around them than when you throw Kyrie in it's like, now we're asking questions. Isn't that a weird thing? Well, Kyrie is the Russ, right? He is the guy who is a immensely talented basketball player,

but perhaps he's not as easy a fit. I mean, Kyrie skill set-wise should fit a little bit better just because of what he's able to do shooting-wise. It's just more of a desire thing, which is an important thing. Yeah, I mean, in his defense, Justin did say he knows. nothing before launching it to this. I say that at the beginning of every podcast and every interview I do just to basically just cover myself for the oncoming next 30 minutes that I speak.

But I think, I mean, the skill set stuff is interesting, right? Because to go back to the OKC thing, which I guess we'll do for the rest of time, these guys are together. But like, imagine if Russ was this elite spot-up three-point shooter and how that would have changed the whole dynamic at OKC. Just imagine. I'm really going to have to think hard. That's a hard one to imagine.

So what do we think about the Nets just going forward here? So clearly the Kyrie thing is something we need to figure out. We need to see. But like from the earlier turns, Rob, is it as simple as that they're just going to be talented enough? Or are you worried about some of the kind of the ancillary guys and how they're going to fit into this picture? Well, I think you're spot on, Justin,

in terms of thinking about their offense and just how easy it's been, just how overwhelming it's been. And if you're looking at the Nets, right now. And I know we're going to talk about their defense. Everyone's going to talk about their defense for the next couple months. But if you're looking at this team and wondering, oh, how are the Nets

going to match up defensively with all these other teams? You've really got this backwards because nobody is going to match up with the Nets. There really is nobody out there. The Bucks are among the best built teams in terms of defensive matchups to really give Durant and Harden and Kairi the kinds of attention they would need.

And they couldn't really pull it off. It's still look tough for them. So I'm, you know, if I'm an Eastern Conference team right now, I'm looking at the Nets, I'm looking at my base defense. And especially if you're, you know, if you run kind of a drop style like, like Milwaukee does, you better have some alternatives in your back pocket because Katie is going to walk into 18 footers and just kind of bury you in a series. Yeah, dropping against Katie and Hardin is just, it's just ridiculous. But no, we can't do that. How many mid-range jumpers would Katie have to have had taken before they actually did? something different about it.

He was missing them at first. So I guess that was like something you could take into account and just be like, oh, who just keep missing? But then he just like, I think he took ultimately 17 two-pointers during that game and only one of them was at the rim. And that's specifically because they were just giving it to him. And he's taller than everybody. And he was just shooting over him.

And eventually it just worked for him. I don't want to jump too far ahead though. But like I came away from that game thinking that the bucks might have more of an issue than the nets, which is, I guess. pretty concerning if you're the Bucks here. Whereas what do you think about just in terms of nets and their ceiling here? Would you say that if they figure this all out,

then they're clearly the East favorites? I don't know about, I mean, if we're just talking talent, it's hard not to believe that, Justin. But like, here's my question for you guys is like, I'm trying to imagine playoff nets. And if I'm imagining them in a critical game five like in a in a second half they're pretty much probably just taking turns between those three

players right like they're the offense is maybe like a high screen like you know maybe they Jared Allen comes and sets a high screen for them or you know or not um not Jared i'll d'andre jordan they seem the same to me um maybe comes and sets a high screen and so they run like screen and roll or something and you know they had joe harris like spot it up uh but for the most part they're probably just going to take turns between the three of them and isolate over and over and over again. Can that be successful? I mean, you've got three of the greatest isolation players in NBA history, honestly, taking turns. So I think that that might be successful. Kevin Durant can score in any isolation, James Harden, obviously, Kyrie Irvin, but is that going to break down in a

playoff game? And to me, I feel like that's the context I'm constantly thinking of in the Nets. we're going to see a lot of good things from them. We're going to see a lot of explosive offense. But when it comes to postseason basketball, can that style of play be successful over seven games throughout an entire postseason? I've been thinking about that too, in terms of the playoff matchups and that element of it,

we're going to bring our hands about DeAndre Jordan, about whether they can get another big in the buyout market or the trade market. But, I mean, what happens if they just roll out 10 to 15 minutes a playoff game of Durant at Center? And can any team in the East do anything about that? I think the Bucks are positioned to with Janus, but otherwise, that presents a really tough matchup

for any team to kind of stay within what they want to do and also have to guard the nets at the same time. I think what's interesting about this conversation is if you think about that they have Mike Dantone running their offense, and it's almost like this weird inversion of the Houston Golden State dynamic where it's like, yeah, Mike D'Anonys Houston offense was like super,

super simplistic, but also he didn't have Kevin Duran on his team, right? And then you watch Brooklyn play, and it's like, I get why Steve Kerr ran his very complicated offense, but it would have been fun to watch Katie and Steph cook for 40 minutes. Like, that's what we're going to be doing here. Like, we're letting these guys just cook. And why not? Like, you know, why not? Well, that's an interesting question, though. Like, would you add more complication to the offense, or is it as simple as, like, you have brilliant offensive isolation guys and just let them go? Yeah, I mean, if you're those three guys and like, you know, Mike Dantone's coming out

and are like, all right, guys, here's the set. We're running horns down. We're going to run a flex action. And it's like, why don't you just like run a pick and like throw me the ball? Like, just throw me the ball in some space and then we'll see what happens. Like that's what I would be saying

if I was Katie or Hardin. Yeah, you stand there. I'll stand there. And then I'll go here. I think the one thing in there would help them is, yeah, they're all great one-on-one scores, but they can all pass off their moves, right?

So you could have Kyrie moving into a pass to Hardin, to a pass to Durant. Like those street could play like their own little game of basketball, right? Within the battle game, the five-on-five game, just those straight passing it back and forth to each other almost. And also extremely intelligent players, too. Like the three like high-minded basketball players, which helps. There's a couple things too in terms of the way the Nets have played this season that we shouldn't just write off, which is one, from the jump, the beginning of the season, they were running like hell, really trying to get out in transition.

That's going to loosen up whatever you think might get bogged down between the three stars. And then also, Charks and I, you know, Charks, you wrote about the Nests today and we keyed in on kind of the same, the exact same second quarter possession, which was a play where Kevin Durant was bringing it up in transition and three bucks basically tried to wall him up

at the three-point line and Hardin just like walked in for a layup as a result. That stuff's going to happen all the time. And, you know, whether it's in the half-port, whether it's in transition, you know, you may worry about what Hardin and Kyrie are going to do off ball in particular, but when you have Joe Harris running around the court all the time, it almost forces those guys to move

because they kind of have to get out of each other's way at that point. I think there's going to be a little bit more dynamic half-court offense than people give this group credit for. Yeah. I guess my question is Joe Harris, what this team ultimately needs. I think like you're saying, Rob, offensively, yeah, like as a release valve, as a guy you could just like, you kick it out, to him, he'll probably make it 50%

in the time. That's like, that's incredible. But I wonder if he falls into the JJ Reddick territory. Like, do they have a JJ Reddick problem where it's like, yeah, that's great that they have this brilliant shooter, but do they also need the wing stopper on the other end? Like, if you're going to close with Harris, Kyrie Hardin,

like, who is shutting down the primary score is on the other end? And like, maybe in the east it's a little bit different equation because it's more Janus. It's more some of the bigger guys in the league. But, I don't know. Like, if we're saying this is a finals theme,

I do wonder, like, who's shutting down Kevin Duran? Who's, or excuse me, LeBron James, who's going to take Kauai Leonard? Well, you know what's funny? We always talking about Hardin and O KC on offense, but if we remember, Hardin guarded LeBron James in that finals. It didn't work very well, but he was the guy guarding LeBron for a long period of that one.

He always guarded Kobe, too. Like, Hardin was always, I mean, top of the stuff of the OSHA was, too, but, like, you know, Hardin got a bigger bulk of minutes. Hardin was always like, I mean, what I'm saying is,

you know, 2012 James Hardin was just such a different player than the guy that he was in Houston. And I don't know that, I'm not saying that he needs to like rediscover that guy because he obviously has become like

a first ballot Hall of Famer. But I think tapping into some of those elements would be something that, for one, would make me enjoy watching him play a lot more. But also I think that it would make the team better overall. Yeah,

I think we're kind of misidentifying some of what the Nets defensive problems are going to be. Just because I think there are fewer outright liabilities than the Twitter snark would have you believe. You know, like Joe Harris, I think he's actually a pretty solid defender a little better than peak JJ Redick was just because he's bigger, he's bigger. He moves a little better laterally. I think he's pretty competent in that regard. Kyrie, when he's locked in, I think he's actually a pretty good, pretty good, especially on ball defender. Hardin is going to be what he is. and you're going to have to hide him and move him around

just from an effort level standpoint. But what they're missing is like that elevating anchor kind of defender. They don't have that guy who's going to make them a top 10, top eight, top five defense. I think they can kind of hang around in mediocrity, though. And if you can have a mediocre defense and an overwhelming offense, you're going to be a really compelling pick for the title. Yeah, I guess the issue is that in order to do anything,

in order to get that sort of defender that you're talking about, they have to trade Harris because they have no other resources. Like they completely exhausted their picks. And like Wynhorst had this snugget the other day that they tried to shop Landry Shammett in order to get a first round pick in order to not trade Jared Allen and they couldn't do so. So I'm just wondering like where that next player comes from. And it's probably going to be Harris if they indeed need to make that move.

And I guess like the buyout market might provide someone just for cheap. But I don't know right now that that player doesn't exist right now for that. I know this isn't the player you guys are talking about but I am a little bit of a Bruce Brown truther I do think he's kind of like this effective player he's not necessarily that answer but he's like a tough defensive-minded player I can easily see him being the guy

that when we're talking like a playoff game that suddenly he's out on me especially if they go small with Duran at the 5 I can easily see Bruce Brown being part of their closing lineups I'm right there with you the guy we have to talk about as always. As always is Jeff Green. I remember in the 2018 with the Cavs, game seven against Boston, I think Love got hurt or something, and Jeff Green played a lot of small ball five

for that team. And that's my guess what is going to come down to is Jeff Green guarding bigger players and kind of helping kind of like the glue guy up front. I have a buyout question for you guys, which is will the play in format reduce the number of buyouts in the NBA this season because if more teams are thinking, oh, we're closer to ninth and tenth, are those teams going to be out of the running for buyouts? I was thinking about this because there actually are a couple of guys who could be useful to the Nets if they're bought out or if they're able to kind of trade them for nothing into, they have this 5.7 million disabled player exception as a result of Spencer Dinwiddie's injury. So could you convince the Knicks to give you

Nerlin's no-well if their season goes sideways? And I don't know that there's going to be that many teams ready to give up rotation guys if they think they can get into the plan? I hadn't thought of that, Rob. That's a really good question. Rob, who else do you have on that list besides no-well? One of them is group chat favorite, considering we just sang his praises extensively in last week's Hornets podcast, Bismack-Biombo. What if Bismac-Biombo is available as your defensive anchor? The other one is, again, another group chat favorite, Hassan Whiteside. What about Hassan White's side.

Oh, my goodness. I don't remember him being a favorite. Well, the hornets are an interesting case, though, right? Like, Marvin Williams is probably the prime example of a guy who shook loose last year and became a rotation player for the box. He probably doesn't get a buyout last year if there is a play in tournament because the hornets would have been in there. And again, as we documented last week, exhaustively, the hornets are going to be in the play

off mix this time around. And so, I don't know, do they give up a Bismack Bianbo? even though, as we mentioned in that podcast, he is not doing too well. Well, especially when you think about the guys who get bought out, they're not usually just from bad teams. They're from bad smaller market teams.

And smaller market teams that, you know, the Hornets would love to make the play in tournament. You know, they would be over the moon to do that. So I think you're spot on in the Marvin Williams comparison. It's going to be a really tough call for those teams to make those decisions just to like make an agent happy for some potential tradeoff down the line.

The nuclear option, which I'm curious about, is what happened with Andre Drummond. Like, right now he's anchoring a top two defense with the Cleveland Cavaliers, and they are in, as we just talked about, like, they're in the playoff mix. So I do wonder if they do get rid of him. But now they're pretty much starting Larry Nance as a small forward, which is actually quietly working, which is really weird. But they have way too many bigs. I don't see a team just giving up anything for Drummond at the deadline. I don't know if his bird rights are valuable to any team. So I could see him just becoming a buyout guy

and all of a sudden, maybe he just strolls into Brooklyn and just becomes this fifth guy. And it's just like, yeah, that's a pretty good just minimum contract just to roll with for the playoffs. I would guess Jumval, actually, if Cleveland's going to be competitive.

Because, you know, Drummond's played well. Obviously, Jared Allen's their future. Javille's going to be the odd man out. He's in the last year of his deal. Obviously, you know, quote-unquote championship experience. I think he's like three or four. rings now. Maybe Javelle, I don't know. Javeil and DeAndre. That's what it all comes down to.

The Pistons got like nine centers that they could probably part with one, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I could just say that. I mean, because look at the NBA. There are what, I'm looking at the standings. Like, first of all, everybody's kind of bunched up, and that seems to be a trend that's kind of holding. But pretty much, what do we have, like, 27 teams that probably want to make the play-in? There's not very many that are kind of like,

we're really transitioning. It's, we don't care. So the vast majority of the league is trying to make at least play in tournament. So to Rob's point, I don't know. I think the landscape will change quite a bit, maybe over the next month and a half, two months. But I don't know. I don't know who's pulling the plug on their roster right now.

One guy who's not a big, but who might fit as we're having this discussion, What's the market on George Hill, you think, Royce? Do you think they get rid of him? I think so. And to me, like the Nets were like such a perfect candidate for George Hill after the Denwitty injury. He made a ton of sense for them either as a starter or as a sixth man was going to fill so many gaps for them. Obviously, they filled that gap quite nicely with James Harden. So I don't know that they necessarily need George Hill quite so much anymore.

But George Hill is kind of like the red button, the thunder. I think can hit right now. OKC's 6 and 6 as we record this, completely exceeding even their own expectations. If you look at a lot of the statistics, they are kind of playing over their head at this point. George Hill, you know, it's not like he's like making that much of a difference, but you start to, it's one of those things where you trade George Hill,

that means you have to play somebody else in this place. And it's a younger, more inexperienced player. And therefore that would translate to less successful basketball. So I think the Thunder probably would be pretty eager to trade George Hill. They're not just going to necessarily give him away. But, you know, I think that he's going to step into a contender. I mean, you could put him on, we could easily pick probably five teams immediately that George Hill would be very, very helpful on at this point.

And so I think that he'll have a pretty robust trade market. Yeah, I'm beating the drum on George Hill to the Sixers. Let's make it happen. That's what I was looking at too, Rob. I was immediately thinking the Sixers. It's perfect. It's really perfect. And we'll see how eager they are to make a move around the deadline or something like that.

You know, if they really think they need a bump to match up with the nets or to keep pace with Milwaukee. We'll see where Philly is. Speaking of George Hill, maybe his old team we want to talk about briefly here, the opposite side of this game last night. How are we feeling about the bucks? Because I got to say, it seems like they still have a lot of the same problems, even though True Holiday. He's doing some stuff. he's definitely fixing some of the ball handling issues that they have last year. It definitely provides a little bit of calm, I guess, in that back court.

Royce, what do you think about the books now in their kind of new form here? Yeah, I mean, I think like you said, they don't seem all that different to me. You know, I think that they are clearly playing the same style. And again, I think I'm living in the moment maybe a little too much, just based on what we saw against the Nets, but, you know, they're not like the defensive juggernaut that I think that maybe we kind of expected them to be, especially after trading for Drew.

They obviously struggled against the Nets. Again, there's some justification there because of the matchup and the difficulties that they're going to present to you. But to me, like the Bucks, if they're going to reach their potential of winning an NBA championship, I think they need to be one of the three best defensive teams in the playoffs, right? Like that's they Because they are going to kind of rise and fall

Some degree whether the ball is in the basket If they shoot their 43s and they only hit 10 of them They're going to have to figure out ways to like win defensive games And they I don't know They have played better over the last like we can have two weeks And they've done some good things But I still consider them probably the favorite in the East But I'm a little less sure

I feel like the hope for them in that regard is to be kind of the Miami heat of this season. Where Miami during the regular season last year really struggled defensively for long stretches. They were kind of figuring out who they were. They were shifting their identity a lot between games in terms of what they wanted to do on defense, what their coverages were going to look like. We don't think of Milwaukee as that kind of team because they have Janus, they have Chris Middleton, they still have Brooke Lopez and Bud. But there are so many moving pieces here in terms of the chemistry and how these guys

know each other and hopefully down the line what they're running, you know, that there will be some variability there. If they can kind of be a pretty good regular season defense and then a really, really tough playoff defense, you know, if they have that in them, and I think Drew gets them closer to that place, but the question is going to be, you know,

who's the fifth guy who's starting with them, how are they going to manage this stuff? And how willing is Bud going to be to make the moves he needs to make when they matter? You know, they did, they did to their credit, at least start throwing some other stuff, some switches and stuff at the nets later in this particular game, but they have to be quicker

on the trigger with that stuff, as always. Yeah, I mean, they're 12th in defense right now. And to me, that's even lower than I thought they were. I thought they'd be like seventh or eighth, but 12th. Yeah, and I think kind of what Rob was saying, like, for them in the regular season, they know if they run their, like, exact same

coverage they did last year. They can have this great defense, but we've seen it doesn't really matter in the playoffs. What stood out to me is what somebody for a long time about the bucks, like, why not use Janus on defense? Like, that just killed me last night. He was guarding Jeff Green and D'Andre the whole time. Like, you've got this monster seven-foot defensive guy.

And it's put him on Kevin Durant. Put him on James Hardin and, like, let him loose. That's where he has the advantage, all right? If your best player is Janus and their best player is Kevin Durant, you're not going to win a shootout. You have to have used Janus' defensive ability to his advantage. And I think what kills me the most is last year in the playoffs, it was like, they never really tried Janice and Jimmy Butler.

Oh, our scheme, blah, blah, blah. Then in the finals, the Lakers put Anthony Davis and Jimmy Buller and win a playoffs game. Like, that's what you got to do in these kind of matchups, is make things happen like Rob was saying, and they just don't do it. It just kills me. I just don't know why every big game that they play, Yannis will ultimately get just a chasm of space where he has the ball at the top of the key and that everything just stops. Like, forgive the pun here, but deer in the headlights, not only him, but the entire team. Can you just like run something? Like somebody do something in that scenario

where it's not just Jan is pulling up an airballing at three. Like how many times do we have to do this where it's just like they don't have a solution and maybe to your point guys like maybe they're saving this brilliant idea for the playoffs. Maybe they're running more DHOs out of that. I don't know, but like do something

because this happens all the time, especially against good teams. That thing almost seems like more brute forcing it to me which is at some point, to be better than that at those exact kinds of plays, heads up one-on-one, like create for-yourself plays. And it's this ongoing education where he's gonna airball a lot of threes, he's gonna shoot a lot of awkward,

kind of stepbacks at times. But the hope is he eventually gets there. He's definitely not there yet. And that was certainly the hope coming into this season is that he would have taken a meaningful step forward in his one-on-one creation. I don't think we're seeing that. My thought with that is, why take the three,

like dribble in for a 12-footer, take a little mid-range shot. If you don't make free throws, why would you take five-threes a game? This doesn't make sense to me, like, logically, right? Like, if I saw, there was, I think we're against the Mavs. He missed, like, nine free throws in a row or something.

And, like, if that's the kind of shooter you are from deep, you probably shouldn't be taking, like, five pull-up threes. Just take the eight, 10, 12-foot shot. Like, start from there and build out, instead of building out in, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would like to see Drew. the ball more than Janus.

Like, I get that Janus is this incredible two-time MVP who's just like a unicorns, but like maybe he should just be a big guy a little bit more than he is. Like, just run him more as a pick and roll big guy. And I think it's just like it, it just makes a lot of sense. And when Drew has the ball, you could definitely tell that this team, there's this, there's just like an organization to it. He's just like crafty enough and smarter enough where he like works angles and like something good ultimately comes out of it.

Even Chris Middleton. Like he was doing the Kevin Durant thing where he was just dribbling into those mid-range pull-ups, as you're saying in sharks, which like I thought to myself, like, maybe this is actually him preparing for a playoff series because like he was getting those shots later in that series against the heat. And everyone's like, where was this before? But I don't know. It's just like there seemed to be options, but they're just not using it, which I guess is like what we've been saying for two years now. Yeah. And they need to run more too. I don't think that they're running enough.

Yes. Agreed. All right, let's take a break here because we're going to talk about our top five teams in the NBA. So we'll do that and we'll come back right after this. All right. So top fives. Royce, you're our guest here. So why don't you start?

Who is your number one team in the NBA today? This is a real tough one. Yeah, it's a tough question. I mean, that's an easy one at least, but it's tough going first with smart other people because now I have the potential to look stupid. if I get this wrong. But I am going to go with a controversial pick and say that the Lakers are the best team NBA right now. Yeah, so we're recording this right after the Lakers' defeat against the Warriors.

I thought they were going to trounce them last night, especially in that first quarter, because at one point, Anthony Davis had six assists with like three minutes to go in the first quarter. And before someone tweeted that stat out, he caught it at the elbow. and he was just like sitting there, like waiting and kind of surveying the court.

I'm like, what the hell is he doing? Like, can he just like take one hard dribble to the center of the court and just pull up on, I think it was like Andrew Wiggins, someone like way shorter than him. But then he was like specifically looking for someone. I'm like, oh, this dude is actually just like working on his distribution right now. This is actually a practice session. It didn't work out in the end because they lost the game,

but it does feel like they're toying with teams. And the one thing that's jumped out to me, in particular is that the crowning of Anthony Davis is perhaps the best player in the league is taking a bit of a step back. I'm sorry to say that, Rob. I know you were expecting it. It's a tough break,

but it is interesting with him and LeBron specifically because I think we all expected that balance to be a little different this season, in terms of what AD was doing, how much LeBron was going to be potentially scaling back, controlling his minutes, taking the season a little lighter, and that has not been the case.

I think LeBron's been outstanding this year for the most part. and really kind of digging in on defense, doing all this stuff you wouldn't expect him to do in the regular season in year 50 of his career, basically. The AD thing is weird a little bit, and some of it is, I don't, disengagement isn't the right word.

He's still very much involved in these games, but is scaling, you know, kind of floating in and out at times, still a very dominant player, still going to be the best player in some playoff series down the line, really intimidating in any kind of matchup, but isn't dominant in the way that I think a lot of people are still waiting on him to beat.

Yeah, there was a good article. I think it was in the athletic. They're talking about AD learning from Mark Gasol, and kind of like Gasol showing on some of the tricks of the trade of the big man passing. And I think this way the team is built this year, right? You've got to get Dennis Schroeder the ball. Montrez is getting more shot, right? There's just more threats to score.

So it does kind of seem like the ball's moving a little bit in terms of the top guys. And I think LeBron wants to be his fifth MVP. I feel like he wants it. I think that's why he's playing so much to get that trophy. Yeah, I think AD is in chill mode. I think that's what it is. And he had a quote when he signed that extension,

how he took into account his injury history because he gets dinged a little bit and we'll miss games when you don't expect him to. And I thought to myself, oh, this guy's just going to take it off. He's going to cruise through there. Like, if he's following the LeBron model, that is actually,

the way to do it is to take your time to ease into the season, especially after the short turnaround from the offseason, like really ramp up as the playoffs there, because he's proven everything he really needs to. He could be the best player in the league if he wants to, and he's probably going to turn

on late. I should say, as we're dinging Anthony Davis, I also have the Lakers number one. I assume you guys do. Okay, good. I was afraid you guys are about to disagree with me. We're all going on a real big lead share. to go, say the Lakers is the number one right now. Yeah, the biggest controversy with the Lakers right now

is that Anthony Davis is kind of chilling on $190 million contract and is still going to be one of the best players in the league when it matters. Yeah. Yeah, they're incredible. And they look better than they did last season. There's just like a calm to them. Even like Kyle Kuzma, like he'll do Kuzma thing. But then it seems like they're bringing out the best of them

because they're able to paper over some of his concerns, just considering how deep they are at this point. It's just, they can't even find minutes in big games like last night for Tailing Horton Tucker, which is like, is saying something. That guy is the real tragedy. Well, if you're a Laker fan, it definitely is. It is a gamer. I definitely want to see more of him.

But yeah, I think we could all agree that the Lakers are one. Two, I think is the interesting question here. Where are we on that? I had the bucks there. We vote at ESPN on Power Rankings. I'm part of the panel. And I had the bucks there, but that was previous to last night's game. I'm going to cover myself with that.

But I guess I can still say bugs. Well, just from a probability standpoint, if we're saying the Lakers are number one, doesn't number two have to be an East team? It basically has to be the Bucks or if you really like the Nets or if you really like the Sixers. That's not fun. I'm sorry.

We're power ranking here. I'm here to extinguish all fun. But I'm with Rose. I think I'm still on the Bucks just as a, in terms of the burden of proof for the Nets, you know, this is still very early. I want to see a lot more Brooklyn basketball before we're anointing them anything. And I think

Milwaukee has done enough to warrant some benefit of the doubt. Yeah. I mean, the Bucks had us, you know, they've had a slow start to the season by their own standard, but let's not forget the juggernaut that they were last season. And I understand that the playoffs are still fresh and they're underachievement

in that regard. But if we're just talking about like the ability of the team itself, I agree with Rob that, And one of the things, too, about the Nets, and again, it feels so weird to say that Kyrie is like, which way is it going to go? But we do need to see them with Kyrie Irving, because there may be some pretty obvious growing pains for the Nets to try to kind of figure that out. Because to me, Durant Hardin just makes so much sense. Durant Irving makes a lot of sense.

But all three together, there's questions there. So I'm just not ready to go with the Nets that high yet. Well, and for the Bucks, I mean, DJ Augustine is going to theoretically. have a good game at some point, right? Like, that's going to happen. You would think it wasn't last night. I'll say that. We'll see.

It's been a really rough start for the DJ Augustine era in Milwaukee. What was that? Like, what were they thinking? Did they not watch the Orlando Magic for the past 20 years that he's been their point card? Hey, he was a starting point card in a playoff team. You know, pretty cheap contract. Sure.

Sure. For DJ Augustine's value, you look at the Orlando Magic since the Markell Foltz straight or injury. That's, I mean, he's a, he's, really good in that kind of placeholder role, apparently not so much in a high leverage bench role. I would say for me, like when I look at the league, I think there's just a clear grouping of, to me, Clippers, Bucks, Nets, 2 through 4 are all in the same pool. And then there, I feel like there's a big chasm. Like I look at like Lakers, then some combination of Clippers,

bucks, nets, and then a chasm. That to me, I think those four teams have kind of separated themselves from the pack. Sure. I don't disagree with that. Who's at the top of that year for you, though? I mean, I'll say for now, Clippers, just because we do got to see Brooklyn with their actual team. Like, we literally have not seen their team yet. So you do have to kind of leave that kind of open for now. But I love some of the adjustments Tailu has made. Paul George looks great this season. I think Dan Devine got to talk about Nick Batum, who's profound himself all of a sudden.

And then Serge Abaka. I like the Clippers, they've done this year. So I have the Clippers third, in part because the defense just isn't there. right now, and I'm a little concerned because that is supposed to be their advantage over some of these other super teams. They have these two incredible wing stoppers that whenever they want to, they could just shut everybody down and yada, yada, yada, Patrick Beverly. It's just the fact that it hasn't come through in the regular season, like maybe they aren't turning it on, but like that's not an excuse that I'm willing to accept from this team anymore because we've seen how that can

trickle into some of these high-stake games. I have the Nets too, and it's as simple as the fact that they have three top 15, top 20 players right now. That is absurd. And I feel like we're going to look back on this season and just be like, oh, we didn't realize this team is like one of the most talented teams in history. And we all doubted them because we didn't realize like maybe Kyrie and James Hardin would take four fewer shots a game. Like they're going to figure it out at the very least in the first season when they're

all like trying to make this work when they all allegedly maybe tanked their certain situations in order to make this happen. Like, I don't know. Oh, okay. You want to get into that, Justin? That conspiracy. It's pretty good. It's a good one.

Well, yeah, it definitely goes deeper in certain parts of the internet if you want to. But like the basic working is like that they all tanked their situations in order to ultimately meet up together. Kyrie took his break in order to force the Nets hand, Hardin, then comes through with the explosive press conference. Kevin intentionally. Torres or Achilles. Is that what you're going with this? Yeah, right.

That's pretty extreme. But, you know, I respect it. What's crazy about that is, like, it's actually weirder what Kyrie is doing, that he's just, like, taking time off and not really telling anybody. So, like, actually life is weirder than what's actually probably people are assuming. But I have the Nets 2. I have the Clippers 3. And then I have the Bucs 4th, because I do not believe in the Bucs until they prove themselves,

especially because their bench looks atrocious. That's a good question, though, with the Bucks and the Clippers. Is there anything that those two teams can do in this regular season to change anybody's mind about them, do you think? No. I mean, why would you feel any different about the Bucks today other than the Drew Holiday trade than what you saw in the postseason? I mean, I think that's a very valid point.

And the Clippers, I think, Rob, I think that they can change public perception a little better just because, you know, I think that they so obviously underwhelmed in the postseason and the circumstances of them blowing the 3-1 lead, like they were better than that. Like that was them, that was their fault. They basically choked, and I think that they recognized that. Like, they were just flat out better than that. So I think that if they have a really successful regular season, I think people may, and again, that just sets them up for immense failure. They choke again.

but I think that they could change perception to some degree. I do think not to make this more Doc River slander time, but I do think going from Doc to Tai Lu is probably not being discussed enough in terms of just coaching adjustments in the playoffs. And I just think the fit with the team, I feel like with Doc, Doc was such like he was Tread was his guy, Pat Bev, those are his guys.

Tailu made it pretty clear like my guys are PG and Kauai. The rest of y'all, whatever. And I think that was what you had to do. Well, in Doc's defense on the stuff like Trez, for example, didn't we see kind of what happens with Trez if you take him off the floor, if you bench him, which is he leaves to go play for your rival pretty deliberately because he's very angry at you? I think there are some interpersonal dynamics that are more complicated that now have been kind of evened out. And maybe that's as simple as you get a new coach in there. You have an excuse to wipe the board

clean and say, this is what we're going to do. We're going to put Lou Williams in this different kind of role. You have a little more latitude to do that stuff, but there's no question they look like a different team in terms of the balance of their roster and how these guys are operating. Yeah. And to your question, Rob, like, what would make us think about the clippers differently? I think if they were blowing teams out, if they were just like playing at the Lakers level, I think then I would probably perk up and be like, oh, this seems a little bit different. The Lakers only have one more win than them right now, but they have a plus 10.2 point differential. And like, some of the clipper statistics could be skewed by that weird ass game against the Mavericks.

But, like, even still, like, the bucks have had that game. They had the Knicks blowout. And yet, here they are still almost at a plus 10 point differential. And so I don't know, man, just, like, show me something where you could be the world beaters that we've been expecting for so long. And then I'm willing to accept that. Well, who do we like at number five? Like, what is the argument for non-sixers? Because I find myself falling back into Philadelphia.

you have. I am the same. I guess history would be the case. Ben Simmons, as charts wrote about last week, would be the case. There definitely seems to be an untapped ceiling to this team. Like, there seems to be more there that they could figure out. But the defense is, God, it's oppressive. I think they're third in the league right now. And Embed is looking like an MVP candidate. And as long as that's the case, like, I'll always have them at five, but I could definitely see if anybody wants to pick a different team. Right. And I don't think that we can completely like evaluate them too much in the current context of their situation. They've basically played the last like, you know, 10, 15 days with half a team. They've dealt with injuries. They've dealt with

the protocols. So, you know, honestly, in some ways, their record even remaining at 9 and 5 now, they've had some games postponed. But, you know, I think for them full tilt, full complement of players, I put them fifth. And honestly, I put them, fifth pretty comfortable. See, I would just say there's a lot of unfinished teams right now. Like, what's up with Miami? They basically haven't shut up this season.

I mean, Jimmy hasn't barely played. He's looked not 100%. But I trust Miami more in Philadelphia whenever he comes down to it. If we're talking about they have a healthy roster. And like Miami's won. I think the Mavs have played like one game with their whole team because KP was out

and they lost half their guys to COVID. Denver hasn't had Michael Pour most of the season. season. There's just a lot of teams at Boston has that Kembo all season, especially in this crazy year. I feel like after those top four, there's this big group of teams are just kind of waiting on to see what they're going to look like. We really don't even know yet.

Boston got trounced by the Knicks yesterday, and they didn't have Jason Tatum and Kembo was playing in his first game, but good God. They had, like, I turned it on in the third quarter and they have like 35 points. I mean, this is the problem with the season, too. It's like I looked up strength of schedule before the podcast, and then I had to stop myself

because I was like, oh, this team hasn't played anybody. This team hasn't played in the weeks. The Wizards still haven't played, and I still don't know when they're going to play. There's so much just noise out there that you really have to filter out. You really need like a strainer for every freaking team in order to figure out which statistics actually matter

and which don't, which is probably more of a reason to go with the Sixers because they have played an easy schedule for what it's worth. But they've looked dominant in certain games. It looks like the team works now. like I mentioned and we talked about this a bunch and previous podcasts

like the Ben Simmons thing I would like to see an upgrade over there eventually but like for now it works one team I guess two teams I would bring up there

is possible other options here how do we feel about the Sons right now they're not the fifth best team in the NBA yeah

I like the Sons but they're not the fifth best team yeah they got some nice pieces they're getting they're putting it together good team

is it me or does Chris Paul just pass all the time now I know that's his thing he just sets everybody up and then eventually explodes in the fourth

but a lot of the times he's not even doing that I feel like he's made a conscious decision that he just needs to like empower all of these young guys and just like and do that but like he's like barely shooting anymore

to the point where like he has looks and he's just giving it off to like a more complicated McKill Bridges shot and I'm just like is this a long term play here

is he playing four dimensional chess and I just don't realize it Justin Varyer pro selfishness I just want to get that take here on the pod. Always. I guess to Justin's point, he's averaging a career low in points, CP. He's at 13.5 right now.

Well, you know, he's 35. It's a long season. He's a lot of games. I get it. It's another COVID team, too. They played last night against the Grizzlies and it was a first game back after a while. The other team I would mention is the Jazz,

who all of a sudden are playing well earlier in the season, as opposed to sucking earlier in the season, then turning it on late. I don't see it. I don't believe in it, but I'm open to have that discussion. Anyone? I'm a little burned by how bad they played the first two weeks of the season

where they looked kind of just messy. They were playing bad offense. They were shooting at bad. They were very so-so defensively. Now they've won five straight, and they look much better. I don't know completely how real it is. the jazz are like good now. Now the game against Denver was impressive because that was kind of a

big game for Denver. They really wanted to kind of write themselves with that and that was really competitive game. But again, if we're talking like fifth best team, I'm not really, I honestly go with a team with a worst record over them. Like, I mean, heck, you know, one team we're not even willing to mention at this point, but like are the warriors in that conversation for fifth best team? You know, they're, I don't know. I kind of like the way that they're, that with Draymond back, they look much more like themselves. I feel like that they have that kind of case. Kind of like what Charks is saying, like,

you can kind of take like this group like six teams and make the case you want to out of who's fifth best. Yeah. The Warriors' second unit looks devastating right now, which is, I guess, is a weird thing to say considering Staff and Draymond play with the first. But like Eric Pascal man, he's bunny hopping his way into the conversation of six men,

like not maybe of the year, but he's running that second unit and turning it into something. But they do look dynamic. And as long as Drey Mon is on the court, which is always going to be a question, but when he's playing, they look like a completely different team.

So Golden State, I got a number for you all. We talked about this on our pod last week at Ringer MBA University. Plug right there. So in 270 minutes with James Wiseman, they're minus 11. And those are almost all with Steph and Dremont.

And that's kind of thing with Golden State right now, is they're in this weird position where they've got to develop this top two pitch. but he doesn't only fit with their system right now. He's a 19-year-old center who didn't play college basketball last year. And they just got to make that work, and that's going to be something to why. I mean, you look at the game last night. I believe he was minus 19 and 13 minutes.

And you talk about just in the first quarter, he was playing along. They're getting killed. They benched from the fourth quarter. All of a sudden, they're playing smaller, playing fast. The ball's moving. They're making shots. It's a different team. What about the thunder, Royce?

Lou Dord. I'm probably going to be a bit of it. shooter? I thought you were talking about when they rank. Oh yeah, totally six. I guess we should talk about Lou Dorte while you're here. Is this real, Royce? What do you think? I kind of think it's real. I mean, like he's shooting volume threes and he's still making a pretty large clip of him. I think like in terms of his driving ability that that's like that was always his strength at Arizona State is that he could put them ball on the floor and bulldoze his way to the basket. So that's a real thing.

it was always just a matter of can this guy ever shoot. And he's making enough of him where, I think he's made a three in every game this season. He's obviously an incredible defensive player. I kind of think it's real. I think he's a real player. Poku, is Poku a real person? Like, does he exist?

No, no, he's just a concept. I was assumed he was kind of like the two guys stacked on top of each other in a trench coat. I think that was like Sam Presti trying to like recreate. Kevin Durant in a lab somewhere and it just kind of went wrong and it didn't turn out the way that he wanted. Like some sort of like

an animal walked in to the transmogrifier machine at the same time that he was making Kevin Durant and it messed up. So create a player gone rogue. Yeah. All right, that's a good place to end it here. Royce, thank you so much for joining us, man. Thanks coming on, man.

My pleasure to join, guys. Yeah, you bet. All right. We're going to take a quick break and talk a little bit of show and take. All right, we're back, and it's just the big three here. So some breaking news, I think this happened overnight, but I was already asleep when it came down.

Anything post 10 p.m. Pacific, I'm just like, didn't happen. So it's the first, I'm seeing it. C.J. McCollum out at least four weeks with a small fracture in his left foot, clearly a devastating blow, especially for Rob, who was very excited for the C.J. Assants last week during this segment. Unfortunately, it seems like he's going to be out for a little while here.

Four seems ambitious if he asked me for a foot fracture, especially because he has a history of these. No? Right? So what are we thinking here? Big loss for the Blazers, right? Well, huge.

But, I mean, first of all, you guys got to warn me about the dark power that comes with show and take where I say good things about C.J. McCollum and immediately cause a pretty serious injury for him. You showed and the world took.

Oh, I don't, I don't like this kind of karmic balance. So they're already out, Nurkich. They're starting Ennis Cantor at center, which is already a problem. This could be potentially dire for them, especially as like every team in the West seems like they have about like the same record or one or two games in cushion. Charks, what do you think?

This feels pretty dire. Because I think really you look at this team and okay, with Dame and the starters, you can probably stay afloat. But you had, Csie was your backup point card too. And there's just not much facilitating on this roster after Damon C.J., right? He goes to this, everyone else here is pretty much a defender or a shooter or a big man. Like, I think they're going to need Anthony Simons to be great. Like, they've been counting on him for like two or three years now,

and he's just got to do it because there's nobody else who can as far as I can tell on this roster. Well, I also don't see how, you know, Gary Trent's minutes have been an item of fascination this season in terms of who's playing over him, when and how. no C.J. McCollum for this game against the Spurs Tren plays 24 minutes. I think that has to change. I think he has to be a more involved part. As one of their better balanced wings and one of the better shooters on the roster, a guy who could fill it up on the right night, you know, this wasn't a good game for him. Certainly didn't have it going, but

they're going to need him in a bad way. Yeah, 125 to the Spurs is not a good start, especially considering that their defense was already pretty atrocious. I guess the flip side of this would be that they still have Dame and Dame was in the situation last year and he went on a streak of just like scorching earth and just 60 pointers and whatever that was. So maybe he's the type of guy who just like needs to have his back against the wall and needs to touch the stove before he could really become true Dame because he has taken a back to see at least offensively a little bit to CJ, at least production wise.

But so that would be the case for them. But I mean, this is a team that like we talked about them going into the season. We thought like, well, at least I did that they had enough here in order to make a push for top of the West sort of good. Charles Barclay is out here picking them in order to be the team to beat in the West. And all of a sudden, they look like they're kind of in the same range that they have been for a while, which is really disappointing. Well, Justin, I can ask you a question first. You mentioned Dame need to be the kind of guy who has his back against the wall,

hand on the stove to feel alive. What is the layout of your kitchen where your back is against the wall and your hand is on the stove at the same time? My stove is actually in a weird position where it like juts out into. to the space. And so it's actually really easy. I could just wall stove. Are you a cooking guy?

I feel like you're more of an Uber Eats. You strike. We're a DoorDash kind of guy. That was a low-key dis, I feel like. I started the pandemic as a cooking guy. I am going to finish it very much as an Uber Eats guy. Although I have been eyeing the master class bread making lesson here. So talk to me in a month.

And I'll have some sourdough. tips for you charts. I love a good sourdough bread. That would be fantastic. Well, let me tell you, I'll have you hooked up. So what do we think? Blazers, they can't, is there a move even for them to make here? Like, is there a big available?

Is Harry Giles a thing? See, to me, I'm more worried about secondary scoring without CJ and secondary playmaking. Because I've always wanted them. I think when you got Covington, I would love to see some lineups where it's like Covington at the Five, Hood, trend. Dame Carmelow or something kind of play smaller. I think that's where Covington has its most value, as it's a small

ball big, so as being a wing. Derek Jones, too, can play some small ball big. They can get funky with their lineups, I think, to survive. It's just a matter of who else is facilitating offense for this team. And that, to me, just glaring, that to me is the glaring need. And I guess I'm curious from from y'all's perspective.

And I was thinking about this writing last week, we were about NBA kind of being an all-in league or like your best team, they're just dumping picks. If you're a dame, it's a moment where you say, hey, guys, you have a lot of picks. I'm getting kind of old. Let's use them, right? Like, at what point does he decide to do that? Is that next step for Portland?

I mean, they did use one of them at the very least in order to get Covington. Or was it two first rounders in order to get Covington? I forgot what the price was. But like they made an upgrade. It hasn't been the one that they needed. But that's still usually like three or four to move. Brooklyn traded seven for Hardin, right? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Is it the type of team that can do that, though? Because they have made a considered attempt in order to build guys up from the ground, right? To use these draft picks in order to surround them. Anthony Simons. Trent was another one. Even the Zerlittle. Is that Collins, who just like, I guess is vanished into thin air or at least his knees have? Yeah, or his lower body has. So, like, I think they made the right moves because they made.

and CJ is a very offensively potent combination, but they're not to the level of some of these other big twos around the league where you could sacrifice other spots and just be like, oh, we could find a crusoe here, a Rondo there.

They need all five positions in order to be successful. There's just less margin of error for the other guys around them. And so I thought it was smart to build through the draft, build young guys who can grow with them, potentially trade them

in order to get a bigger guy, but it just seems like some of them haven't hit and some of them are hurt. Well, think about how many teams, period, could sustain injuries to players on the caliber of C.J. McCollum, Yusuf Nurichh, and Zach Collins, and feel the functional rotation. You know, we were talking a lot about the Blazers' new depth coming into this season, but that depth evaporates when you need to all of a sudden fill all those kinds of minutes. So they're in a tough spot, and they're going to need to lean on, you know, guys like me can sing Gary Trent's praises, but he's still fundamentally an offball player who's going to rely on other people to create for him as charts. was mentioning, this team doesn't have a lot of secondary creation right now.

Some nights are going to be the Mello Show, and they're going to have to live with that. Yeah, I think, Justin, you're right in terms of they made a really big gamble a few years ago on Anne Fernie Simons and Zach Collins. And Collins, unfortunately, has just not been able to stay healthy. Simons is kind of the guy. I've never had a great feel for his game because I didn't want to see Washington coming into the league. He's kind of always been stuck behind Damon C.J. But this is like your time.

This is third year in the league. And I think from Dame's perspective, it's like this whole building through the draft thing is well and good. But I just saw James Harden and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durrano are the same team now. Like maybe I want to do that. That might be fun. Right. That does seem fun. Yeah.

Someone compared Anthony Simons to Roddy Boubois, which I feel like is pretty out at this point. Roddy B. I feel like that's a disservice to Roddy B'Rat B, honestly. Like, Amfrey Simmons has not put up Bobois numbers. Bobois has had moments, right? I haven't seen a Simon's moment. But that's actually a good place to pivot here to your guys' Dallas Mavericks. Rob, you jinxed the Blazers last week,

but do you want to take another shot here at a show-and-take that could potentially not ruin a team? Well, I've learned from my mistake in that I'm not going to come to this show-and-take with the certitude of saying C.J. McCollum is playing great. I'm going to ask you guys a question, which is, do we really think the Mavs have played some of the best defense in the league?

because that's where they are. They were hovering around a top three defense for a lot of this season. Now they've dropped down to seventh. That would be a huge accomplishment if they can hold kind of in the back half of the top 10. Do we buy this?

Lucas had some moments on defense this year. I don't know if that's like real or not, but he's definitely tried some. So there's something right there. That's a start. Yeah, Lucas moments this year have been missing three-pointers yelling at refs for some reason,

just like straight up bullying refs like he's wrong games. Yeah, some reason. That's not a new development. And then also just triple doubles that no player in history has ever accomplished, like 35.15 rebound triple doubles. Like I feel like the guys at Elias, just like their eyes light up as soon as Luca Donchish plays a game

because I see a stat about him like every freaking game now. To your question, Rob, I am not sold on their defense. And even like, so Zach Kram wrote about this at the ringer. And even between the time like he, we signed the piece and when he wrote it, like they were already starting to tumble down. but I think the bigger picture question I think for you guys which is really interesting

is that it seems like a couple of teams the Mavericks specifically took some cues from our guy Mike Budenholzer and are starting to maybe allow some three-pointers the Pelicans are another prime example of this unfortunately it hasn't worked as well

for the Pelicans as it has for the Mavs I'm curious what you guys think about this trend like is it replicable or like our teams just kind of chasing after something and ultimately they're giving up very high value shots. I think it requires your defenders to have really high read and react basketball IQ

in terms of who to give those shots to and who not to who they need to really contest hard against and one of the reasons I'm a little skeptical about the MAVs is just how many corner threes they give up and so far overall in terms of three point shooting opponents just aren't hitting a lot of shots which has a whiff

of a certain kind of randomness in terms of their defensive performance but I think for the MAVs the tradeoff for that as with the Bucks is they're keeping everybody away from the rim. And they're not doing that with some kind of Brooke Lopez level drop all the time.

Some of it's just the perimeter defense has been a lot stronger. So for me, the Mavericks question is a matter of, what do you think at the three-point shooting and what do you think subbing in Josh Richardson, James Johnson,

and a little more Willie Colley Stein, and subbing out some of the maps lesser defenders from last season is enough to explain this kind of change. And to point out as well, KP has only played four games. And he's their primary. very rim protector. So to me, I've been kind of intrigued by this team all season, and I'm just

kind of waiting for it all to come together because what they did by swapping out like Seth Curry for Richardson is they sacrificed shooting for defense. And that kind of made Porzingis more important because he's now probably their best shooter. And I really like the idea of this team where you have Luca Richardson, Hardaway, Finney Smith, Porzingis as a supersized massive defense. And that's like two or three high IQ defenders with Richardson and Finney Smith particularly. You can go 666, 6, 6,7, 6, 8, 6, 7, 2, 73. That to me is very intriguing,

but that team right now is still theoretical because right when KP came back, they lost Richardson and Finney Smith to COVID. So it's all kind of TBD right now. Yeah, worth noting in their backslide, a team that's operating without three to four rotation players on most nights right now. I mean, that would certainly explain some of it.

Yeah, the Richardson and Seth Curry trade It was one of the few swaps where both teams just made out for the better. I think he made sense for both teams and you could definitely see a payoff of Richardson. Just like that toughness definitely seem like they have better wing defense with them out there.

My question is like, is Luca going to have the season that we all expected him to have? It's still kind of in the works. He's still doing Luca things, but it's not totally there. If anything, I feel like the season we expected to have, him to have,

is what Yokic is actually having, like Yokich is on fire, which brings us sharks to your show and take. Yeah, so I got to give a shout out to my guy, T.J. McBride, a Nuggets writer. He was texting me some statistics from Yokic last night that were just preposterous, absolutely preposterous. The blogger just text you stats like all the time. I feel like this comes up a lot. You're just like, oh, I was talking to this guy. I have my network of sources, Justin, just like you have yours. Mine is my dog. Yeah. Go ahead. So he was telling me, let me find, let me get the exact number here, hold on.

Number one, so we know we were always talking about how Yokic is the best passing center of all time, but he's now averaging more assists than any forward in a season ever too. So we were talking like, Wilts, Larry Brown, like Larry Bird, all these like point forwards, LeBron. He's now above that. So let me get his numbers first off because they are ridiculous. So right now, Yokic is averaging 25 points, 11 boards, 10. 10 assists on 57% shooting.

So he's basically having a peak Russell Westbrook year, except also shooting 57, 3885 from the free throw line at 7 foot, however tall. That is, that combination of efficiency and versatility is pretty much never been done before. And like we're saying, Yoko's just pretty much a never-before-seen player. And now it's just kind of all coming together for him.

I've been thinking about that Westbrook comparison because Westbrook won MVP for a 47 win team that was sixth in the West. At what point do we have to really put Yokic in the top tier MVP conversation? Because the numbers are there. His play is there. Denver is starting to trend up a little bit,

five and three over their last eight games, and their losses have been to good teams. You know, have we all learned a valuable lesson from giving Russell Westbrook the MVP in his triple double season? Or, you know, Yokic, I think, is better now than Westbrook was then. Should he be in the MVP talks in a more serious way?

I think so I mean what he is doing is remarkable but they had to win more games I do think they'll have to be higher than where they are for to really be in the running his control of the court is is like impressive to watch like he's always had the water polo

assists but there was one game where he was just like dangling it around and defenders were jumping at it and then he just hit someone on a dime like in stride for a catch and shoot three I'm like damn this guy has it going he has more dad playing with his son on a play school hoop energy than any other player in the league, just in terms of that dangling

the ball over their head situation. I think right now the nuggets are 23 points higher, better on offense with him on the floor and then they come out. He's good. I love watching him this season. And they're another team that haven't had Michael Porr, Jr. maybe if he's been in there, they would, I don't know, they'd have three more wins and all of a sudden we'd be looking at them differently. I think one insular conversation, which is interesting based off the Russ and and Yokish thing you guys are talking about is just like the prevalence of triple doubles. Like one, I wonder if like that novelty is worn off. Like if Yokish was the one to break through there, all of a sudden we would be talking about

him more as an MVP candidate. But I also wonder like, do you think the reason why there are so many more triple doubles these days is because guys see it as a benchmark now? Like it used to be 30, 40 points, whatever. That was like the big thing that distinguished you as like a certain caliber or a player. our players going for that or our players more versatile are like is sizing down across the league leading to guys getting more rebounds, more assists and doing a little bit of more of everything. I don't know. I keep thinking about this because it seems like a triple double happens like multiple times a night now. I think it's both of those things and at some point we're going to have to have a serious conversation about the assist bloat in the NBA in terms of the scorekeeping.

What registers as an assist right now? I mean, there's some generous stuff being given out out there. Yeah, it's an overall structure of M-Day offense. It's kind of been discussed a lot. It's like, I think the word that people like to say is like heliocentric, where instead of being a more traditional point guard, your score offense, now, like your best player has the ball all the time. And there's just a natural accumulation of stats that comes with a guy like Luca or Yokic

or Hardin, just holding the ball so long. right. It's just kind of, the assist just kind of flow like water. And because, you know, it helps to have good score keeping too. Well, Yokic, interestingly, not that kind of guy in terms of his control of the ball in terms of time of possession. He does get a lot of touches. Yeah, that's true. The hub of their offense. But, you know, he plays very differently than some of those other heliocentric stars. I think that what makes him so awesome is the fact that he can have these touches and while still giving the ball up. Though it is funny for much as we talk about Yokic, Jeremy Grant, did just leave to be the guy somewhere else. And man, do they miss Jeremy Grant right now? We're going to need, like, some kind of bell ringing

whenever we mention Jeremy Grant's name on this pod because he's in every episode of Currence these days. Every time I watch the Nuggets, I can't stop thinking about Jeremy Grant and what that team would look like with him still. That's what you think about? Without him, like, they're a different team. And not as good one. Not a good one.

Justin, what did you have for us? Mine is a little dated because I jotted this down when the Warriors were still losing that game, but I thought it was an interesting little tweet here by some guy named FeltBot, which I don't know who this person is, but it got thrown into our blog Slack by Dan Devine. So maybe he is a prominent writer I'm just not familiar with. So he is quote tweeting a tweet from Drew Schiller,

who has a Steve Kerr quote. So this is just like layers upon layers here. The Steve Kerr quote is just our goal this year is to establish ourselves as a playoff team and hopefully take the next step from there and become a contender again. Feltbots tweet is, imagine the head coach of one of LeBron's team saying this. Just imagine. Nice emphasis there. Now imagine a franchise that doesn't believe in Stefan Curry and Draymond Green enough to play for a championship. You don't have to imagine, which very spicy. I do think there is a little hypocrisy going there.

I'm curious what you guys think, because I have a very specific opinion on this. And Charx, I guess this goes back to the CJ conversation, right? The Dame conversation. Well, I think what I was talking about with Wiseman, actually. I think Wiseman's a subtext of this entire season for Golden State and how do you develop this 19 year old Ross Center with your two veteran superstars? Well, Justin, you mentioned the hypocrisy that you saw on this. Who is the hypocrite? I guess us, just in the way that we talk about LeBron versus how we talk about Steph. Like, we wouldn't allow this for LeBron. If LeBron didn't have, wasn't going all in for a championship for every season of his career, like we would all like look at this curious.

Hold on. What about that first year in L.A., right? That would be, that would be the counter that he tried to play it through with the young guys. But the thing is that it gets so complicated because he has the groin injury. And you're like, well, I don't know if he like was going to like force a trade during that offseason and just took back. Like I don't know how long of a play it was for Anthony Davis. Maybe it was already in the works and he just didn't get to it by the deadline. I don't know.

There's a lot complicated. But I do think that's a very good point. Well, I do think the framing from Steve Kerr here is notable. But does anyone really think the warrior? or contenders? No. And that's kind of the point in the tweet. Like, Steph Curry is not getting any younger.

Well, but is the point of the tweet that they're not contending or that Steve Kerr isn't saying they're contending? Because to me, this read as honestly kind of radical honesty from, you know, toward a group of NBA fans who have been lied to so many times by coaches in terms of what teams are playing for that we expect them to say this stuff. I think one of the good things, honestly,

about Kerr and Curry's relationship is that Curry has always, allowed Kurtus say what he needs to say. He went out in front of everyone repeatedly and was saying Kevin Durant is our best player. Kevin Durand is our best player over and over in a way that a guy like LeBron might not have loved that. If someone was saying that about his...

I don't want to put words in LeBron's mouth, but I do think Curry is willing to put up with some of that stuff in terms of the realism and the expectations management, and this is kind of what that looks like. And I think, Justin, you're right. There is like the whole the Dame conversation, too. at what point does Steph say cash these assets in? Because they could have

two lottery picks in next year's drafts because they have the wolves pick and possibly their own. That's a lot of assets to like quote unquote build a bridge to the future or go all in next season. That was a side swipe man. The Warriors might have another lottery pick because it's based on their own.

Maybe they may not, but you know what I mean? Well, I guess the other counter to this is also that the Warriors ownership is spending ungodly amounts just to get Kelly Uber. on this freaking team. Like, they're taking mortgages out on the Shays Center when just to get like a wing who can't hit a goddamn three in there. By the way, he had a great game last night.

I won't hear any Kelly Ubre Slander. I know. I'm sorry, sharks. Always got your back, Kelly. Always got your back. Okay, here's some numbers for you guys. And I think this is really the subtext. So Steph with Wiseman is minus 14.

Steph without Wiseman is plus eight. And it's just that simple. It's like, how do you separate that out, right? Like, Wiseman's 19, centers take time to become good, right? That's what I struck me as odd when the whole thing happened in the draft. And they're like, well, we've got to get some big men for AD and Yokic. And it's like, yes, sure, but Wiseman's 19. Like, Aiding and Yokets are in their mid to late 20s.

When Wiseman's that age, Steph's going to be out, you know, he'll be in late 30s. So that, to me, is a subtext over the whole warrior season is, is Wiseman going to be ready enough next year? because or in two years or this, like LeBron in LA, right? Where LeBron do we dumped those young guys for a veteran? And is that the end goal here eventually too? Well, it's also as simple as,

and this probably should have been line B on this discussion, is Clay Thompson is out for the season, and Clay Thompson is really good. You have him in the lineup, maybe you are a contender. You don't, and all of a sudden, you're seeing a lot of Kelly Ubre and Andrew Wiggins, who, I mean, bless Andrew Wiggins for blocking a lot of shots this season, but he is fundamentally Andrew Wiggins.

I feel like Wiggins, like as soon as people started saying good things about him, like, his shot came back. I think he's shooting like close to 40% from three right now. All of a sudden had a terrible game. It's just like you can't say anything good about him because he perks up and then he goes back into his hole. I think it's also like a short-term, long-term thing. I do wonder how much that has to deal with the fact that Steph has been with his franchise his entire career, which as opposed to LeBron, who is a mercenary who goes and like basically assumes that the franchise is going to do everything to keep him. around, it's long-term versus short-term. Like, yeah, the warriors could be really cutthroat. They could use Clay Thompson as the expiring contract, rope in the wolves pick, maybe even

Wiseman, and get someone like a beale. I would assume that they have, like, the best package in a trade that any team could put together for the next distressed asset or the next disgruntled superstar. But they always also talk about, like, this long runway, the whole, the spur, they want to be a dynasty like the spurs. And the way to do that is to ease is the transition to a next error where Steph Curry is probably the best player, but maybe he's no longer the most talented player. He's more just like, he's playing more off ball. You're focused more on Wiseman and whoever they get with this draft pick from the wolf. So it's an interesting look at like two different styles of superstar power. Yeah, and I think that's maybe the big tension point,

especially if the nets are as good as they think they're going to be for every other superstar in the league. It's like, what the, what KD, K. K. K.D. Kyrie and Hardin basically just cash. out the nets, right? They came in, took all the assets, and just emptied the bank account, and just made it happen. And, you know, is that great for the franchise long term? Well, if they get some of ring, sure, but more important, like I guess ultimately, at one point, like with Dame or with Steph or all these guys, is like, at what point am I looking out for the franchise, or am I saying, cash me out, when now, where I'm going somewhere else? And if you don't do that, and you have LeBron and Katie just cashing out franchises left and right,

You're at disadvantage. Listen, Steph only has one more season on his contract after this one. I'm just saying, like maybe those, those like whisper conversations with Janice at the All-Star game.

We're actually going the opposite way where Yonis is like, don't you want to play in Milwaukee? We have Pat Coniston here, man. He makes some good sourdough. The Great Lakes. Tell them about the frozen custard,

Yannis. No, I fucking love that custard, man. That is great stuff. Cops, I believe. All right, that's a good place to end it. Thanks to Royce for joining us.

Thank you to John on production. We will be back next week, same time, same place. Until then, we'll see you.