The Ringer NBA Show - Are the Pacers a Finals Contender With Pascal Siakam? Plus, the Most Interesting Trade Targets and Potential Destinations. | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

Logan and Raja discuss the Raptors' decision to move on from Pascal Siakam, his fit with the Pacers, and whether his presence pushes them into true contender status (1:19). Along the way, the guys talk about what it takes to be a coach in the NBA and why the assistants are the unsung heroes (12:17). Next, they point out some of the most interesting trade targets still on the market and the best potential landing spots for them (31:13). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (47:27). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Justin Verrier from Group Chat on the Ringer NBA show, and we want you to come hang out with us at All-Star Weekend in Indianapolis. Big Waz, Rob and I are recording a podcast live from High-Fi Indianapolis on Saturday, February 17th at 2 p.m. with Friend of the Show, Jay Kyle Mann. Get your tickets now at hi-fi-indy.com. That's H-I-F-I-N-D dot com. Get your tickets while they last. What's popping?

Real Ones. Thursday, Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Everybody, ladies and gentlemen, Rajas said he doesn't know what he has for this podcast. That usually means one or two things. It could be an unmitigated disaster

or it could be one of our best shows. I don't know what's going to happen. Usually it's one of our best shows and Roger just gives a blank stare when we give the rundown. I guess it just gets scared. So we'll see. I don't know.

How are you feeling, Roger? I feel like Frank the Tank on stage in old school. when the Rage of Cajun was asking him the economics question, bro. I'm about to blink out on you. I don't know. I'm unprepared. I don't know.

Let's start. Let's dip our toes in really quickly and just see what we get here. Let's talk about Pascal Seacum. Going to the Indiana Pacers, a trade that includes Bruce Brown, Jordan, not going to butcher his last name, and three first round picks to the Toronto Raptors. It was announced yesterday. this is one of those moves, Roger, that I think that we have been mulling over the last year,

or at least since the Pacers have become into prominence and got into the zeitgeist of the NBA, are they going to make a trade? We always ask about these questions of these teams. The Thunder are another team that we talk about, and I'm sure we'll talk about them in next segment, teams that are ready to push the button and take the next step in their trajectory. Now, this right here is a move to do that. for the Indiana Pacers.

Raja, what is your, who won this trade, who benefits the most from this trade? What are your thoughts on the trade at face value before we've even played a game? Hard to say exactly who won the trade.

I think the Pacers get better faster. Do you know what I mean? Like they're obviously, like on a team trajectory anyway, they're in a spot to vie for something maybe quicker than, than Toronto. And so because you got a piece

that you can plug and play to the tune of 20-some points a game and and NBA finals experience and depth as a wing defender versatility can can play some small five if you want and just keep the tempo up they play at this hyper warp speed anyway like I'm going to go with with Indiana but you know I think I'm not mistaken like I said I didn't dig into contracts and stuff like that like sorry guys that's just not my bag I don't know what to tell you

keeping Siakam it would would would you know, long term with that group would ultimately kind of have to help shape my determination on who won the trade eventually, right? But like right now, Paisers. It's interesting because this is one of those things like I think about with the Warriors with Andre Goudal. Now it's two different types of skill sets. Obviously, they are two wing defenders, but I mean more of a team, more of a type of player that basically, basically the, the, the player that co-signs all the work that you've been doing to build up your team, right? and Andre Aguadal was one for the Warriors.

I think Kendrick Perkins was that for the Thunder once upon a time, right? One of those guys that just basically just streamsline you into, okay, now we're going to contend now. What type of mindset needs to happen? Because just a few months ago, the paces were the darling of the NBA. And I think in some respects they are. But at a certain point, you have to keep building up to a championship level status. what is the transformation right now do you see that the Indiana Pacers are going through

and what do they need to to continue this trajectory in your eyes? Yeah, so you talked about wing like wing defenders and stuff like that and I don't mean to minimize Nauru or Brown but but I mean Pascal Seaccom what Brown has experience and stuff

like Seacom's a bigger longer body giving you true coverage on the wing no matter if that wing is a smaller wing or a bigger longer wing. So I think he covers that box better. And then in terms of noir, like you've got, and this brings me to my point, you've got a guy who's done that at a level in games that just quite frankly mean more. Like he's got more of those type of games. And so where they were as a franchise is fun to watch. And we talked about this with them. Like fun to watch. Like I'm

going to tune in for a Pacers game because I, Halliburton and company, like I want to see them get up and down. You were going to need to start plugging in pieces with real experience. And experience with real skill sets that are proven in the toughest moments that don't overlap or step on the toes of what you already have in theory. And I think Seacom fits that bill. Like I don't think he takes anything away from what Tyrese can do. I think he fits with Miles Turner really well. I think that he is a piece that you kind of plug and play and it checks a lot of boxes.

So where they were as a franchise is trying to identify those pieces figuring out like, hey, A, what's our timeline? Is it now? Are we close enough? Are we ahead of where we thought we were going to be? Is it worth it to make the move right now? Do we think that gets us in the stratosphere that makes it worth the swing? And so they clearly did. And they made the move. And I think it's a good move for them. When I look at the roster and I look at the trade, I still think that there's another trade to be had or another couple acquisitions to be had just for the simple fact that before Seaccom was there and he's a great defender, but they're defensive. was trash, right? And no, and I don't, I think that Siakum is a great individual defender, but I think that they

what they need at this point, they still need a defensive anchor, and I don't think that they have that on the roster right now. So with that being said, like, it's a, it's a really good move to keep on building, but like, I still don't see them in the upper echelon of the Eastern Conference

just yet, because you still got to go through Embed, you still got to go through Janus. I don't think that they have, I don't know if they have the personnel still yet to win a series. Not they can win a couple games, but to win a series is what they ultimately want to do. I don't know if they're there yet. Do you say like maybe are they still a year or two away? Are they still, where do you see them right now in the Eastern Conference, Rob?

I don't think they're winning the East. Although, I mean, Milwaukee don't want to see them. Straight up. They don't want to see them. But I don't necessarily think they're winning the East. So I would agree with you in that. I think there's still work that can be done, but you rarely get the opportunity in the NBA or any walk of life for that matter to get it all right now. I talk to my sons about this all

the time. You want it now. It doesn't happen like that. You got to build. You got to work. You got to keep stacking days. You got to get a little better every day. And that's what they did. And so while I would agree that, like, yes, it's still in front of them, I wouldn't necessarily say they're two years away from it or they're one year away from it. They're closer today to it than they were before. And it's going to be interesting to see how far they can get up the leaderboard in the Eastern Conference. And at that point, I could give you a definitive answer on whether or not I think they could win a game or not. I mean, a playoff round because I think that's matchup based.

And so if I'm telling you that in the Eastern Conference, while I'm not picking them to win it, I already told you the Bucks don't want to see them. You are right about Joel and Beat and company, but they've had their struggles. Yeah. Like who out there is definitive? other than Boston in my mind, like 100%. Yeah, I'm taking them. I mean, and so I might pick some of those teams over them,

but not 100%. Like, yo, that's a win. And so I say that to say, well, I agree with you to a degree, but I do think their window is slightly open. Like, it's not going to open. It has cracked open already. And so now, you know,

while there are still things we could do, I mean, a couple weeks ago, I told you, I don't see it, right? Like we were talking about it. fun team. And I agree. Defensively, obviously there's things that need to be sorted out. But with a piece like that, like he's a, I used to love watching Siakum. Look, when they won that championship, and you could, no one could take their eyes off of, off of Kauai, and for good reason. And Fred Van Fleet was awesome. Do you know, you know who secretly my favorite player in that

series was or in that, in that playoff? I don't think it's so secret right now, Roger. I think it's such a secret right now. Who was it? I liked, I liked how he got down. I liked the way he played. I liked, you know, his length and skill set. And so I think, I think, it's a good fit. Let's pivot really quickly. And we'll come back to Seaccom, but you did bring a good point. And I don't think we've talked about it to the pod just yet. Just about what like matchups in general, and I think about the Bucks and the Pacers, that's going to be, I'm really curious to see whoever the Bucks play in the postseason and how tactfully, how they do tactfully from the coaching standpoint. Like, this is a big, this is a big postseason for the Bucs of

general, but Adrian Griffin specifically, right, where he is this young coach. And if I'm looking at what has happened with the bucks, I mean, what's happened over the last couple of seasons with the bucks, and it's kind of happening with the Indiana Pacers, which illustrates what I'm about to ask you, how much is coaching, can coaching potentially bite the bucks in the ass right now? Because Rick Carlisle runs circles around Adrian Griffin when it happened, whenever they play, Right. And it's very clear that at least in the regular season, the pace has got mind control over the Bucks. So how important is coaching going to be for the Bucks at this point, especially a year after they lost it in Miami Heat? And for no other reason that they were just ran circles around schematically. How do the Bucks kind of overcome that? It's very, very difficult to overcome that. To overcome a deficiency in the big chair, like a glaring deficiency in the big chair, your stars have to. to be starring on a whole other level.

Like they've got to be the brightest. They have to shine the brightest that they've ever shown, if that makes sense. You know, you've got to just be clicking in a zone, team firing on all cylinders, working like a well-oil machine offensively and defensively. Like, it just has to be clicking to overcome strategic inequities in that seat. I'm not saying that, though. I'm not saying they have that. But if you ever were to come up against a situation like that, it's really difficult to overcome it.

You know, we talk about the playoffs all the time that in the playoffs, your stars, they just have to be stars. You need them to show up. And then you need some of your support cast on any given night to show up. And that can be done by committee. That could be, you know, me one night, you one night, Kai one night. But we need Janice and Dame to be Janice and Dame every night. Like that's what the playoffs comes down to in a lot of instances. But the chess match that is the game to game tweaking of strategy is very, very, very important.

And if you get into those situations and, you know, you don't have a guy who can can make those adjustments to whatever's happening to you. It's really, really hard to overcome that. We saw it to a degree and I don't mean to bring stuff up. But, you know, when you watched the heat and the Celtics a couple years ago and, you know, this was early. Again, this is, Missoula comes so far from there. But you could see that playing out kind of in real time. The next part of it I'm talking about, which is the in-game. hey man this changed on us on the fly we came in here with a game plan we were we were ready we were dialed in

we had the advantage to start this game but the guy over there you know standing up in the suit had an answer and he flipped it on us midgame do you have that ability so so how hard is it to be a head coach in the NBA can you put it in perspective for our listeners right now how hard what are the things that you have to do on the fly because I don't think it's I think people look at schemes and I don't know necessarily they know look at the whole total package. What is needed to be a modern NBA coach? Oh, well, I'm not one.

I'm not one. Well, you've been around it. You've been around good coaches. You know what he's talking about? Come on, man. Don't check it out. Come on. I'm not going to chicken out.

I would just, I would say that, you know, communication is huge, right? Like, why is Tyloo a great coach, right? Like, you know, who's a, absolutely. But look, it starts with communication, right? Like all great coaches are great communicators in their own way. They're not all buddy, buddy with you, but they all have clear lines of communication so that you're getting the messaging that they're expecting you to get. And there's no real gray area to be danced around in.

Like, this is what it is. Like, however you want to package that, for different players, you have to present different packaging, but certainly clear lines of communication. You know, accountability and being able to hold the best player accountable for things in a way that demonstrates to the rest of your roster that you're no pushover. And so there's no real wiggle room with this. right at the same time having flexibility not not being a stick to your guns and i'd rather be right than win type of guy there are a lot of those much rather say he was right than win a game you know like that wears on people it you don't typically win and so then it wears on people even more um i think during the regular season it's more about you know managing personalities

and agendas and and arcs of career right because that's a thing everybody's Everybody's at a different place in the career trying to achieve different individual things within this team concept. How do I manage that? How do I make sure everybody's getting what they need out of that? Imparting a culture and what you're going to be about, how you're going to play, what the DNA of the team is, getting people to buy into that, making sure that practices, meetings, flights, general day-to-day reflects that. So people that aren't completely immersed in it all the time and just come, they get into that. indoctrinated real quick. Like, boom, this is how we do shit. So that works, right? It just wraps everybody up in the culture and before you know what you're good. That's regular season. And then, and then, you know,

manage management and shit like that. But where, you know, where they, where they shine the brightest, it's like, you know, it's like players is in those playoffs. Because in the regular season, you just don't have the time as the head guy to dig into every single game that way. What a lot of people don't know, and maybe they do. And I'm, I, when we are playing five games, games, right? In eight nights on a road trip, the head coach isn't the one doing the scout, the breakdown of the film, the understanding of what each five teams runs, the understanding of what the best player on all five of those teams likes to do. He's not the one doing that. The head coach does not do that. That is, that is an assistant coach usually assigned to each one of those

games. And so at your shoot around or your breakfast meeting, the person that will be standing in front of your team delivering the scout for that particular game is the assistant coach. The person walking you through what they're going to do on any given night is the assistant coach. And so I only say that to say that the head is managing. There's a lot of delegation going on. There's a lot of trust in the pieces he has around them throughout the regular season because he just doesn't have the time with everything going on to prepare like that

for every single game. But when the playoffs come around because of the natural breaks that you have, because you're playing the same team over and over again, the heads get a chance to dig into that minutia a little bit more. They're able to be there and really affect change in a way that you might not be able to in five games, seven nights in the middle of January. That makes sense, like when you talk about the Miami Heat because, like with Eric Spolster, because like it's, he obviously delegates to his assistants,

but at his heart, at his heart of hearts, he's a video guy, right? So like he still has to go, you know, he can flex that, muscle even more in the postseason. And that's one of my favorite things to see is when the guy like Spolster or somebody that has come up the ranks and kind of just use that muscle in the postseason. Those are the funnest things to see from a coach. Yeah. And he's a great example too because his teams, like if, you know, his teams are the, the rare

type of team. And I want to be fair because I want to give anyone else credit who's done it. And I'm off the top right now. but I think his teams do it the best. Honestly, they stumble. You'll worry about them. They'll creep in as a damn as a play in team. I've seen the Miami Heat.

I'm not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe, but I've seen Miami Heat plenty of times come through the West Coast in December looking straight garbage, looking straight ass. And I'm like, what's going on here? And then you see them in May and June. It's like, this is a completely different team with the same roster somehow.

I don't get that. Yeah, and I don't mean to hang it all on. that Spoh just, you know, gets more involved at the end of the scene. It's not like that. There's a lot that goes into that. But it's a part of it. I want to go back to Seacom real quick

because one of the things that we always talk about is roles within a team. And, you know, Seacom was probably in, he was in his perfect role in the 2019 finals, right? Where he had to be the number two option had to be, or number two or number three, he had developed into a number one option

on a okay team, very average team. Now I think he's going back into his rightful place as probably a number two guy on a roster, maybe number three. But what is that transition? How long after a trade do you have to have when you have to transition into a new team and get firing on all cylinders?

Because when, like from a coaching standpoint, from a player standpoint, it's tough when you get traded midseason because you're going to a completely different organization, a completely different way of doing things. What is the best way of transitioning into a new system? And does it help that this happened in January as opposed to right on the deadline in February,

this move being made? Yeah, it certainly helps. Any extra day you get to fill your way around and find your footing is crucial, especially when you're talking about a team that's going to be hoping to make some noise and make up some ground in the Eastern Conference for positioning in the playoffs.

There are obviously different ways to approach going into a new situation. To be fair to people who listen, when I talked about the Chris Paul situation, I talked about going into somewhere kind of understanding that they've won championships and not trying to make your mark necessarily right off the bat and have people kind of bristling at the fact that you're coming over. But there are dynamics that are different in that situation. than this particular situation.

So as it relates to this situation, I would say he's the more experienced. He's the one that's won a championship. And while he may not be coming in to be the number one offensively, he can come in with a number one mentality. So I'm not coming in trying to necessarily fit around everything else that's there

other than Tyrese Halliburton, if that makes sense. Like, Tyrese, you're the dude. Like, you make this thing go. And I understand that. But I'm not going to sacrifice 50% of myself to accommodate, like, other people on the roster. And I hate to be blunt, but that's the best way I can put it. Because 50% of myself isn't what they traded for. And it's not going to help us get where we're trying to go.

So that then falls to some of those other pieces, you know, to be mature enough and understand what is going on. And this is perfect. it takes me back to what we just talked about. Communication. Hey, fellas. I checked us out. Seacom is coming in and explain the vision for it. And so Pascal gets there and it doesn't all become how does he fit in. It becomes partly how does he fit in, but how do we incorporate him in?

And I think when you take that approach to it, it works better versus Pascal trying to find his way around it, find his way around it, find his way around it. I remember LeBron, I think a lot of people would remember him telling. Kevin love, although I don't, I don't love how he put it out there in the public. He sent a sub tweet. He sent a sub tweet. It was wild. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like the don't fit in instead of fat out.

No, he hit him with the fit out instead of fit in. Hey, I think his third, I think his third eye was open when he wrote that tweet, for show. No, he was on one, though, because Kevin was, to Kevin's credit, Kevin had come in and basically submitted to like letting it be LeBron and Kyrie. and Kev was still at a point where he could go. So LeBron was like, look, man, like this doesn't work unless you go. Now, it might not look the same as it looked in Minnesota in terms of touches and overall usage rate and shit like that.

But you need to figure out how you could go. But what was that behind the scenes before he sent the tweet? Was he telling him this beforehand or is just like, oh, okay, the message is sent. Oh, he sent the tweet out. To be fair, I don't know because I was not with them every minute. So I don't know if that was something that was said to him. We had a little funky dynamic going on, though. It was a weird, the beginning of that season was weird.

It was, I was worried about it. I made that known to people behind the scenes. We just had some, you know, we had. We did, we did. We had some, like, clicks in the locker room. We're at the breakfast thing. And, you know, they had the same group of people ate together all the time. And they were over here.

And it just didn't look really accepting and inviting. And so I think, you know, I don't mean to put. words in Kevin's mouth, I would never do that. But just as an observer of, of the dynamics there, I don't think that helped either. You know, I think he couldn't really. It was like double dutch. Like, you know how you see somebody hop in. Their heads going back and forth.

They're looking for a time to hop in between those ropes. And Kev could just never really find it, you know? And so LeBron was like, yo, fuck it. Just get in. He was like me because whenever I tried to do double dust, bro, I always get fucked up, but like hitting the eye and stuff too tall. I'm not good. You got to think about two ropes of the.

the same time. It's just not great. LeBron said fuck the ropes, man. They're not even there anyway is what LeBron was saying, right? Third eye open. Ropes don't even exist. My boy, just go ahead and get in. Thursday, real ones. Let's go. Wait, but I do what I asked one other one, because like,

Kevin Love was one type of trade, but that happened in the off season. Like, you were also around teams that had like the mid-season trade. I don't think you were on the team when Matumbo got traded at that time, but you were on the team when Shaq got traded to Phoenix, right? Yeah.

Which was a fun. You're smiling right now. That was it says that elicest great memories, I'm assuming. What was that integration like? And how could that, how could that color how, maybe Pascal comes on the, comes with the Pacers, two different players. But I'm trying to, I'm trying to stretch here, sir. I smiled because Shaq was fantastic.

Oh, wait. I forgot to tell you. He said, hello. I saw him at the, at the, at the, at the Las Vegas in season tournament. This guy. And I said, I did a podcast with you. I apologize. I forgot.

What was that? Two months ago? I was like a month ago. I was like a month ago. But he was like, Tell Rogers, my man. Tell him us hello.

Yeah, that's what's good. The diesel is my dog, man. And so he was, he was phenomenal. Like, he was just a phenomenal teammate and person to be around.

And, you know, that experience is, is, you know, just something I will cherish forever. Like, that's one of best players

of all time. But, but, and one of the best human beings. But, but our team was not built for Shaq. Right? It was built with, with like Sean Marion and Amari Stademeyer.

It was built for speed, not for power is the best way to put that. Right. And so when we got Shaq, and to Shaq's credit, Shaq came in and was saying all of the stuff that should have been said in that moment in time, which is I'm not here to change the offense.

I'm not here to, you know, demand the ball or have it run through me. I'm here to help you guys get shots and help this thing operate at the highest efficiency that it can with me in it. And he was telling me how I would never get shots as wide open as I'm going to get playing with him

because of the way he said screens and just generally could dice a defense up when they would double him and stuff like that. And so that communication was fantastic. And he tried to live those raps. We just didn't function. And so as it relates and pertains to Indiana, you can never really quantify exactly

what a trade like that is going to do to the chemistry that you have. You know, now Shaq, obviously a much different piece in our lineup than a Seacom piece going to Indiana because, you know, what wound up having to happen with Phoenix is ultimately,

after I got traded, they wound up playing more to Shaq. That next year he was an MVP, I'm not an MVP, I'm sorry, but an All-Star again. Yeah. Because when you have Shaq,

you have to use Shaq. I mean, he's- he's fucking Shaq. He's Shaq, right? And so, like that's just common sense. And so that's what that trade was like. It was like, we're going to play this way with Shaq. And we tried and we tried and we tried and we tried. So what's that dynamic

real quick? What's that dynamic like when you're with the guy that is like obviously this gregarious personality, but like it's not working. It's clearly not working. Right. And the way that you would want it to, is there like, is there attention there? How do you feel when that's happening? There wasn't. There wasn't attention there at all. Um, because we were still winning games. We just didn't win in the playoffs. We played, we thought that that piece like Shaq, this is again, we, I'm saying we. I was on the team, but I didn't make the deal. My guess is they were thinking. Yeah, Steve Kerr. Yeah, Steve Kerr. Yeah, Steve. My guess is that they were thinking for the playoffs, right? Like for Tim Duncan, Shaq was going to be the antidote. And it didn't,

work out like that. Like, they just rolled us in the playoffs. And so I think at that point, the whole experience up to them was great. Nobody gave a shit. Man, we were having a a good time, man. I'm telling you, Shaq was one of the best humans, like, around. We had a blast. Y'all was having hell of fun when Shaq was at Phoenix. We had so much fun. We had a blast. So there wasn't any tension. There wasn't anything like that. And then, you know, the playoffs came. And it was obvious that things weren't clicking the same way. And where the tension began was the next year when Mike left. And then, you know, Terry Porter came in. And, you know, that's well documented and shit like that. We don't have to get into that.

And you're on the other side of the court throwing layups and just. Yeah, that's when the tension started. Because that's when we stopped. That's when we changed everything. Like he came in, man, it's just crazy, bro. And I don't mean,

I don't know how we got to this. I guess we do it all the time. But first day of training camp at University of Arizona, we're sitting in a film room. I'm sitting right next to Steve. I think Leandro Barbosa is on my other side. We're in there like, ready to go. Best time a year,

dog, we back to training camp. Let's get it popping. Steve Kerr, I mean, Steve Kerr called me, told me, you know, about Terry Porter said he's not going to,

change a lot. Just going to give us a little bit more defensive stability. Going to keep a lot of the verbiage and the style that we want to play. And we're like, yo, let's go. We're at University of Arizona sitting there. The film comes on. Terry Porter's there. He introduces his college coach. It's all the beautiful, the weather is beautiful. Oh, man, Tucson is popping. And the first thing he does on that film as as it starts to run at some of our offense. He freezes it. And he looks at me and he said, that's a bad shot. And I was like, oh, no, it's the first one. And so, okay, I got you, coach, no problem.

I kind of side-eyed Steve. He side-eyes me. The film keeps running. The whole tape, not, if it weren't just me, they were our offensive shots that were questionable for what the NBA was at that time. But it was our DNA. And he made it clear that he was there to take them shits out.

And that's when they got sideways. You felt you felt lied to. You felt your heart just, bambozos. Let it stray. Oh, we didn't land on Plymouth Rock. I'm like, man, what? Landed on us.

What is going on? And so look, let me take it back, man, for the listener. Wait, with Pascal Seaccom, it's not that big of a shift. Pascal is a, is a Lambo. He's going to play fast. He's going to get it up. Like, it's easier to get a dude to play fast than it is to get a guy to slow down to a blind.

He's got the doors open. He's doing donuts. He's locked in. He's fine. But what you can't quantify necessarily right now is exactly. what that does to the chemistry on the court and in the locker room. By all accounts, a great dude. I don't think there's going to be a problem.

But that, you know, that's the one thing that gets tricky when you're pulling a trade like that. It's not going to be whether he fits from a skill standpoint and a style of play. It's just all the other shit. All right. Let's take a quick break. We're in a bag. Let's talk about fake trades.

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See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. You're listening to Real Ones. and I am Jade. Logan averages 1.5 what's Poppins per episode. So it's time to pose the question to you, Logan. What exactly is Poppin? We are back.

We are vibing. We're styling and profiling. Okay, I got names for Raja and myself for the backstretch of see how we're going to take. deadline, way too early names. We're just going to go with vibes. You know how we do it.

All right, Roger, I'm going to give you a name that you're probably not going to guess because you're looking, I know, you're Googling stuff just to, you know, I don't know my information at this point. I'm going to go with one right now. Jeffty. Wow. Wow.

All right. Anywho. Someone's not locked in. All right. Anyway, first name. First name. Kyle Kuzma The Kuz? What about him?

The Kuz? Okay, what is the game? What are we playing here? What are we doing? I'm just going to give you like names of people that could be on the move and see where we want to take them and where they would be a good fit. Where they would be a good fit. Man, that's okay. All right. I'm going to go. I'm going to call Kuzman first. I think he'd be a good. And I'm paying the pitcher. I do not know if he's going to get traded. He just could be a likely trade, you know, person because let's be honest, bro. It's tough in D.C. right now. It is, it is, it is rock bottom. Um, hear me out. Sacramento Kings. Pascal Seacum is no longer on the board. That is one of the, the, the, uh, the players that the

Kings were, you know, involved in talking about. Cal Coosemps, we put him right in. Um, is another, it can be a wing defender when he cares, um, and could be a winning player if he's in a, in an environment where he doesn't have to be a leader. Kyle Coosma. I think Kings, maybe, somewhere along those lines somewhere that needs a that needs an extra wing defender who doesn't need that much responsibility. What do you say? Kyle Coosman. I think that a lot of teams could use

what he represents. Like for the reasons that you just articulated with Sacramento, anytime you can get a dude who can make shots, does not have to lead good length and versatility on the wing. I'm with that.

Now, that's just in a vacuum. I don't know what we'd be giving up to get Kyle Kuzma in this scenario. I don't know, you know, if that's a feasible thing. But there are a lot of teams that are in position, fringe to lower tier playoff teams that could use something like that. That's fair.

That was a fair thing on the fly. I appreciate. Thank you. That was a good job, man. I was, I was sweating. All right. I'll give you another player with me to know a bone. Let's do that.

I didn't give you, I was pretty unfair giving you Kyle Kuzma. I just wanted to test you. I just wanted to test you. I just wanted to test you. I just wanted to test you. See how you said he was locked in. I passed my towel. Okay.

Another guy. Dejante Murray, who was traded to Atlanta to, and I want to talk, I'm using this as a way to talk about Atlanta, but Dejante Murray who was traded to Atlanta to be like,

maybe like a Costco Splash brother or like maybe a Costco CJ and, Dame at some point, I don't know, and just has not worked out. The Hawks are who they are right now. If you're the Lakers, if you're a team that probably maybe thinks you need a point guard or say like if you're the Sixers, are you looking for Jean-Tay Murray to solve your problem?

Not the Sixers. No. Okay. Not the Sixers. Well, maybe, maybe the Warriors who are. You can say what you want about Clay Thompson. I'm a little dubious that he can be any more than he is right now. And that's not even a diss to Clay Thompson.

I just think that he is a guy that has always been better served being the third or fourth best player on the team. And if you need him to be the second best, it's not going to happen. So like, say, you trade, get somebody else, trade him, get somebody else for that. Is Dejante, where would you, what kind of player or team do you think for Dejante Murray? Yeah, interesting. And the only reason I say not the Sixers, obviously, he makes every, he makes, he makes, he, makes everybody better. Like, I think he makes teams better.

But I think there's a little bit of redundancy there. I think there's a little bit of overlap with him and Tyrese Maxi in a way that I, he, Tyrese is what, at 26, 26 a game right now? Like, I don't know that I want to upset his, his trajectory in that way. Golden State, yes. Golden State, yes, right now. Although I doesn't, I don't think it necessarily puts them in a championship window again, quite frankly.

But I don't think any trade does, but I'm just throwing out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I'm just working through it, sorry. But yes, I think Golden State, I agree with you. Look, I love Clay. I pattern my NBA game after dudes like Reggie Miller and stuff like that. And Clay is as good as anybody with what he did, setting his stuff up off of a jump shot. And so I always love to watch it.

But we're at a place now where we got to call a spade a spade. And so Golden State has to figure out how to extend the shelf life and how to keep stuff. in a window or at least get that window crack back open again and getting young or relatively young pieces that can go are going to be critical to that. So I would say yes to that. The Lakers an absolute

yes to that. It's a no-brainer. I've said to you, like, so anybody you tell me of his ability level or right around that and Lakers, it's a yes. But yeah, clearly he would be another person who can get downhill and create shots and

do things offensively because the Lakers' offense is what's the word I want to use for the it's sluggish let's be let's be polite I think what and also like their depth which what we thought was going to be a thing is this is not there I think last night they like 90% of their their scoring output was from the starters I mean theoretically though you're gonna have to give up I mean you're not going to be any deeper when you bring him in right because you're going to have to get pieces you're going to trade a lot of those people yeah so that just means that you're going to have to have better pieces and he is that I want to talk about the Hawks really quickly because

what is it's just been like a black hole for coaches DeJante Murray was was tasked to help um help Tray Young what is this what does this tell you because the worst place to be in the NBA is the middle we know this time and time again

and aside from that Eastern Conference finals run Trey Young hasn't really done shit with the Hawks you know he's been very exciting he's made great plays but it kind of seems like the hawks are who they are right now Now, if you trade DeJante Murray, are you seriously considering trading Trey? I think I would because I just see the writing on the wall.

Like, what else are you going to get with this team? There's no, I just don't see it. What do you think when you look at the Hawks, the staff record label and MF and crew? What do you think? Well, what I immediately think off the top is who would trade for Trey Young? I would. I would ask you the question. No, and I don't mean it to be.

I'm sure there people would, but who would be like clamoring to give up? major assets to get Tray Young thinking that adding him to what they have is getting them over to hump. I don't think many, not no contenders. No contenders, right. And so I only say that to highlight that like the style of play with which he plays, albeit electrifying and can maybe get you to a certain level, it's really hard to get the recipe right around that. And also like he doesn't seem like a very little, I mean,

I don't want to, I mean, he doesn't seem like a very likable person to, it doesn't. I mean, like, you ask people around the league, you ask, you see the proof of the pudding with the coaches. I'm, I'm only going with what I see here. Now, that's fair. I don't know him, so I'm not going, I'm not going to say that. I've heard things, like, but I'm not going to go out there and say that. I'm purely keeping it on the court. It's electrifying.

It'd be a nightmare to guard. It produces some hell of highlights. But to get the recipe right around that is an absolute headache. it's a headache and it is not an easy thing to do and so when I asked you, would people trade for him? Look, I get it what the fans are going to say, but it's fucking Trey Young. Did you see what he does?

I know, I hear you. And I would also tell you that like when people are trying to win championships, it ain't just about how electrifying he is. How can we support that electrifying talent in a way that helps it get to a championship level? And with that specific size, talent, personality combination, it's really hard. You just throw hell of shooters around him, I guess.

I mean, I don't know. Like, is that? Because I just think about Iverson as a short guy. All right. They just, that's your all best. Those days are over, though, where we could grind you out, like, defensively. And AI could have 45 and we win a game. Like, that's not, those days don't exist anymore.

Yeah. That's true. All right. I try. No, no, I'm not mad at you for that. But you're, like, you know, as I was thinking about it when I was running my mouth and not saying anything, that's kind of where I was. Where like, man, you just put a bunch of, you know, defensive shooters around him and play.

Like, I don't know. That's why I'm sitting here fucking rambling into a microphone for an hour and a half and not sitting in, you know, in somebody's jet going to see a game right now. That's a horrible thing. Roger. What's up? Let's be real. You're not here for an hour and a half.

I wish. You would never be here for an hour and a half, including ads. I'm sorry, unless like Jesus was our. podcast. Let's see. An hour guest. You're probably right.

You're probably right. Like hour 15. Hour 15. Hour 15 is stretching. Okay. Fuck you. What are we talking about? Yeah.

Just trying to get that recipe right. Like this particular podcast. They searched forever to find a motherfucker that would work with you. I just happen to have a free hour in 15 minutes. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like that shit ain't easy. Oh shit.

Okay, what are we talking about? Dejante Murray, Trey Young, do they take the team? You're acting like the Trey Young at his podcast right now, Roger. I'm acting like the trade young. What the fuck? Oh, man.

Hard to trade. Hard to trade. If I'm the Hawks, I probably am in the mode of if I can, you know, but I'm also not the one sitting there counting their receipts and counting, you know, how much money they make off

attend. I'm just looking at it from a winning perspective. There's more that goes into moving the face of your franchise than that. One last one and I think it's like the biggest conundrum of the trade season. And that's Zach Levine. Right. And it's not

because of his ability. It's more because of the salary. And he has three years left on his deal worth $137.9 million. I mean, you could just give me and Rod just a millie. Just, you know what I mean? just we'll take it. Like, you know,

he got it. Come on, bro. Anyways. I got an hour 15 for it. You got an hour 30. You'll be here an hour and a half. I got you an hour 30. Oh, man. With,

with Zach, any, but you take anywhere? You take them anywhere? Because here's the thing, like you think about the Lakers, right? Like, they're hip-packed.

If they, if you take a Zach Levine, you're taking three years of him. On one hand, I see that, right? And I see that argument. But on the other hand, I saw Russell Westbrook get traded like three, four times on this massive deal that no one's sake could get moved. Same with Chris Paul.

Like, if you like him, you should just go get him. You can get up off of them. I agree with you 100%. I think that's the way you would look at that if you're the Lakers. You don't have the luxury, a quarreling over some money right now. You don't. Now, if you care money, don't make money. It doesn't.

And I only say that because you have LeBron. when you get LeBron and Anthony Davis in a window of time, like you've got to be making the moves that get you to a championship or that you think get you that much closer to a championship. And if it means taking on, you know, like Zach Levine, Zach Levine is,

I don't think he's a Russell Westbrook in that. And I love Russ. You know, ain't nobody talking. There's no Russ Lander on this pod. So for those who haven't heard me say that in a while, the refresh of course. No.

Just so you know, come in my mentions with that bullshit. But he doesn't have the history. I don't think that that that, that, that Russ does with, you know, not being able to, you know, shoot the ball and having to have it all the time. And not to the degree that Russ did. And so I look at his skill set and his explosiveness and his ability to get downhill and get to the rim, his ability to catch and shoot his length and explosiveness. And I think, I think that even though the contract is,

is a big contract. The Lakers, you don't, I don't think that you get to have both. I don't think that you get to have LeBron, Anthony Davis, and this window of championship time available to you and say no to deals that get you closer to that. I don't think Laker fans let you live in that space. They shouldn't. You don't get to have both of those things.

If you're all in, you're all in. That's the biggest thing that I, and I don't know, because I think Winhorst said that there's no way that Levine is coming to the Lakers or going to the Lakers. and we'll see if that comes to bear. But that's the biggest thing that I think with all these contenders, like, yo, if you want to,

here's another thing. If you want to win a championship in the NBA, guess what that shit costs. It costs bread. It costs money. You're going straight into the luxury tax. It doesn't matter. Indiana wants to be a title contender.

Guess what? They're going to have to break bread or fake dead. That's just what it is. You know what I'm saying? Straight up. Right? Like, who won the last time? Look at it.

That caught me off guard. Right? Just like, yo, if you're going to do it, you go do it. You think about the Warriors a couple years ago, most expensive roster in NBA history. If you go, like last year, you look at a luxury tax. It's going to happen. You have to spend it.

So that's what it thinks about the hesitation. Not even just for this Lakers team, Roger, but like every other team was like, oh, I don't know if I want to spend money. Do you want to win a championship or not? If you don't, I just want to win playoffs, like if you want to just hemorrhage money, then fine. But like you're not going to win a title. You're not,

if you're not spending money. Listen, it's pretty much as simple as that. You have to go out and take the swings at things that, at least in your mind, are getting you right there. Now, again, just because you do that doesn't guarantee you a chip.

There are a lot of things that have to go right, man. And that ain't just an NBA. That ain't even just an NBA, Roger. That's every sport, bro. And I'm tired of hearing that always in the NBA. Like, if you go to soccer, like you think about the fucking the cost it takes to winning fucking champions

League, it's a lot of money. Like, it's a lot. NFL, it's a lot of money. So, Zach may not go to the Lakers, and that's fine. But when you're asking me, if I were someone, would I swing a deal to get Zach to the Lakers?

The answer is yes, I would. All right. Sorry, we both got a rants out. I feel good, man. I see why you're so chipper, like in the morning, bro. I'm sure you get a few rants out. It's like, what, 9.30 a.m.

out on the West Coast. I'm sure you get a couple of rants out, make sure you get your day started, huh? No rants. My family was all on a plane today except my middle boy, Ty, who is at school. So that was just me. There's no one to ran at. For sure. All right. That's, okay. They usually take place in the morning when everyone's got sleep in their eyes and they're bitching about going to school. And, you know, I haven't been up for 30 minutes already cooking

breakfast and these mofos are complaining. Like, do you know what I mean? That's when I usually get a good rant. But no one was here today. So I'm straight. Can't wait to be a dad and just fucking yell at my kids for no reason. you can't fucking wait or good reason sometimes I just can't wait to yell I'm already commudgeon bro just to yell at someone bro

I can't wait all right let's get to a little segment we like to call Reward of the week Raja I'm just gonna tell you go first just go first

trust me on this one go first so I don't know which way you're going but I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with coach Mike Brown on the heels of the Toronto Raptors head coach's epic rant

I sent this to you I sent this to you, Ron. I put it in the chat. It's phenomenal. I mean, did you watch all five minutes? Yeah, I had seen it. I had seen it already,

but like it was, I mean, for those who don't know, there were some, some questionable calls in, in the Sacramento Kings game. This was four days ago or so, five days ago,

I don't know. And Mike Brown got up at a press conference. It was in Milwaukee. In Milwaukee. Not only did he rant, but he brought out and he had clips.

You know what has to go into that? You have to, tell your video staff, hey, I need you to get me the clips of this play at this point in time, that play at this many minutes into the clock. Let me tell you guys, this is the other thing about Mike Brown. We talked about Spolster being a guy that just came up from video rooms, just has this shit. I would not be surprised if Mike Brown already had the timestamps in his head and just said, get this timestamp, this motherfucker, get it going.

I got to talk. So he did that. Got his laptop, prepared for him, had the video staff bring it to him, went to the press conference and just eviscerated the refs with video evidence to support his argument. And I thought that was fantastic. I just did. As someone who's very nervous of public speaking, to have all your shit together be able to do that and remember things as on the fly as he did while also getting your point across

and not making it boring, it was brilliant. It was brilliant. It was great. He stumbled a bit. I could feel him fumbling around because of the emotion, emotion like in adrenaline, and what's coursing, right? Because he's hot. But he knew he was about to get,

he knew he was about to get fined. He knew what it was. He already knew. He killed, he crushed it. He crushed it. For sure. What's number one and what's number two?

Real one. Toronto Raptors coach or, uh, or Mike Brown. Man, that's a tough one. Um, I still think I go,

nope, I go with number two. I go with Mike Brown. Just because you, I haven't seen the prop. Which one was, what's, what's one is,

what's one is more like Raja if Raja was a head coach? Are you know, ruin the laptop out? Or you're just saying this is bullshit and I'm fucking walking off. I'm not as intellectual as Mike Brown. Like I wouldn't be able to handle that. I don't want anything up there distracting me from like. You might go to laptop off.

You might fuck up the laptop. I don't want anything up there. Just let me go. My ruin of the week is a pretty somber one, man. Dayyamilovic, the assistant for the warriors who passed away tragically in Salt Lake City. it was, and I hate to even just use a real one of the week as to just to celebrate this man because you want to

give the flowers while they're alive, but he passed away and is, when I tell you, this has been a huge, huge, huge loss for the Warriors. That would even be an understatement. This dude was a great personality in the locker room, not only in the Warriors locker room, but

across the league. You know, you had people like Luca, reaching out and saying a statement, You know, Yokic was a huge fan of this guy. But when you talk about just a guy in the Warriors locker room that was beloved in a season like this for it to happen, right? And you never want that to happen in any circumstance, but the way it happened, man, I feel for everybody to go to State Warriors organization. I feel for his family.

I know he had a, I think he had some people close to him as well. I think he had kids. This is tough all the way around, man. It's tough for the league. And so that's my real one. But man, what a loss, Ra. What a loss. Yeah, that's a tragedy, man.

I'm praying for the Golden State family and for his family. You know, I don't know what else you say, man. That's a, by all accounts, a shining star in the organization, someone that people loved. And anytime you see someone that young, it's tough. So I've just prayers out to them, man, condolences. Yeah, man. And yeah, I don't know what else to say towards that. I'll just say, you know, God prayers and we're thinking of everyone in the organization.

And that has been another edition of Ruins, Thursday edition. We'll see you guys on Monday. Howard Beck is back. MFN Mondays, we're back, baby. Also, before I forget, we are instituting a Monday mailbag, Raja. This is news to you. But we're going to introduce. the motherfucking mailbag every Monday where we answer maybe one or two questions from our from our real ones out there make sure you send out an email to real ones mailbag at gmail.com.

We'll be answering your questions every Monday from here on out with Howard Beck from around the league or if you just want to ask us an appropriate off the basketball court question about any of us just you know tap in. So we'll see you guys on Monday. We'll have our first mailbag episode. I'm excited for that. Tap in all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older in president's select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Candace under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC.

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