The Ringer NBA Show - Are the Thunder Primed to Repeat? Plus, KD Lands in Houston. Is This His Last Stop? | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Logan, Raja, and Howard are back, and they open the pod with a discussion about Oklahoma City and the Thunder’s championship celebration. Would Raja have celebrated the same way OKC did? Plus, Jrue Holiday was traded to the Blazers for Anfernee Simons. What will the Celtics do with Simons, who’s on an expiring contract? Kevin Durant was finally traded to the Houston Rockets for Jalen Green and Dillon Brooks. Is this the last stop for KD? What’s next for the Suns and their logjammed roster? Plus, a loaded mailbag! (0:00): Welcome w/ Logan Murdock (0:57): Show Start (2:49): State Farm Ad Break (3:30): OKC Wins NBA Championship (19:11): Jrue Holiday Trade (27:10): Kevin Durant Trade (51:44): Mailbag Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Clifford Augustin and Victoria Valencia Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming.  Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. We have a great show for you today. It's me, Braja, Howard, Beck. We talk about the last remnants of the finals, talk about a grid conversation on the Kevin Durant trade to Houston and the ramifications for both the Rockets and the Sons. We get into a little talk about the Drew Holiday Trade to Portland. What are these teams doing? Is this the new frontier or a sign of the new frontier of the Apron era? and its ramifications. We get into all of that. We get into your mailbag questions. There was a heated discussion about Jalen Green.

That was really unexpected. Shout out to Fresno, though. Then, you know, Raja gets into his dad bag as well. It was a lot of fun today. A lot of fun. But yeah, we have a great show for you. Make sure you tap in. I play the theme music right now.

It's popping. Real One's Logan Murdoch here. Raja Bell there. Howard Beck in the back in the motherfucking cut. Howard. Raja. It's good to see you guys. We're like Raja.

I haven't seen Raja in fucking years. How you doing, buddy? What's going on? I'm doing well. I was chasing Dia all across the country last week. We were out in Manhattan Beach for Elite 11, and then we had his official visit out in Austin over the weekend. So we were traversing the Southwest slash West Coast.

MVP of the Elite 11, huh? Yeah, like, you know, he did well. a good, I'll tell you what, let me just say this. Yes, he did win the MVP of the elite 11 and we are very, very proud. But the elite 11, what, and I, like Brian, I've told Brian Stumpf, who runs the elite 11ness and his whole staff, an incredible experience, not just for the kids, like, but like for the parents, all the things that we had resources at our disposal, but it was cool because, you know, I was watching all these dudes who were out there, like really competing and wanted to win this MVP. But they fostered such like a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, um, you know, um,

a culture of like fellowship and brotherhood, that it was really cool to watch all these dudes out there, cheering for each other, pulling for each other. And just as a college football fan, like all jokes aside, that's my, like probably my favorite sport next to basketball.

That's the face of football, like college football in like three or four years. All of these dudes that were running around that field. So I was kind of geeking out a little bit, but amazing experience. That's dope, bro. Yeah, and you got the pitcher,

you and a little homie with Sark. Uh, yeah. Equally amazing. Like those, They laid it out. I think there were 17 recruits out there. It's our only official visit.

Obviously, Dia's been locked in for a while, but they, man, their recruiting department and the coaches just put on, like, yeah, crazy. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. On the basketball court, the best players know when to pass. And off the court, you still need teammates

who are there when it counts. That's where State Farm comes in. With agents and online tools to help you find the coverage you need, you could focus on what. really matters, whether that's hitting game winners or just getting through the day. State Farm, with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, and eligibility vary by state.

Let's go, man. Let's talk some hoops. We're going to talk a little OKC championship vibe, their parades today. Drew Holiday Trey. And the KD trade, we've got some mailback questions, and we'll see where it takes us. But first, the question that I have for Raja is, if you want a champion, ship. Would you celebrate the way Oklahoma City did? Meaning?

Well, our guy, J. Dub, shout out to J. Dub, had his first drink. They had to YouTube, how to pop a bottle. And I think everybody got to sleep by 11 o'clock. I think everybody was sound asleep by that. Listen, man. If you're asking me, had we, if, Had we won a championship, would that have been the way? No, the answer is absolutely unequivocally, no. But they are a very young team. I mean, that's just hilarious. They're a young team.

And it just kind of illuminates what I already know. It's just how different the league is now, you know, from a standpoint of like what they do in their free time, like how often they are out. And just generally the age, right? Like we didn't have as much youth on a lot of the things. teams we were on. So look, you win a championship. You can celebrate however you want. Good for y'all. Howard, you were on the ground for what was it like to, what was it like to see them win the

championship? And also the game was kind of, uh, but what was the overall vibe in Oklahoma City post first championship in franchise history? So you got exactly what you wanted in terms of like the last minutes are counting down. You got your typical crowds getting a little louder, louder, louder. They can feel it. They can taste it. It's coming. You know it's in the bag because it had been a tense game, right? And you have the whole, like, the Tyrese Halliburton, like just the Paul that that cast over everything early on. And, you know, credit. By the way, shout out to the Thunder fans. First of all, awesome fan base. I think it's the loudest arena in the NBA. But also, you could tell something was wrong with Tyrese. I know everybody on TV based on social media could tell me like, oh, we could see it pop. Cool. Awesome. Great guys. You can't see that in the freaking arena. We just saw him go down. He's on his knees. And he's on his knees. And he's. initially it looked like just frustrated about turnover. Dan's clear as something else. Anyway, shout out to the fans because as soon as he got up and had to be helped off,

big cheers there, like very supportive. So the vibe by the time you get to the end of the game, that's in the distance. Everything's awesome. But even before the celebration, everybody's like, oh, wow, they're first drinks and they didn't know how to pop champagne bottles. Even on the court, it seemed like they didn't know what to do. They were just kind of like, oh, okay, we're about to win a championship. now what and even the celebration on the court um trophy presentation they just all had like this

kind of giddy nervous energy but not it wasn't the same as like Kobe jumping up on the table with his arms out KG shouting anything is possible into the rafters or LeBron Cleveland this is free like there was nothing there was no like defining thing no exultation that was like this is the moment and it was um it was just funny like I like that I like that the uniqueness of this one was that there wasn't any of those things like the KG thing or the LeBron thing or the Kobe thing. It was just them try to figure out like, what do we, what do we feel now? We did it. Like, because they're, they're so ahead of schedule.

Youngest team to win the championship in almost 50 years, second youngest to win it in the last 70. It's almost appropriate to just kind of like try to figure out how to feel and how to act and what to do in the moment. I thought that that was actually kind of charming. The city afterward, you know, the first championship I covered back in 2000, like you're riding late anyway, but then you're getting these warnings at Staples Center in L.A. Like, hey guys, you may not want to go out to figure over right now. Things are kind of dicey out there. Like shit's getting turned over.

I think there was a car on fire or something. You got a little messy downtown L.A. And I've been at a bunch of these. My 23rd finals, I haven't been there for the closet of all of them. But every one is different. When I finally got out of the arena, I left at like 1 a.m. I was not done writing, but I wanted to grab a drink with the hospitality room. Two blocks to the hotel.

I wasn't sure because I had heard like a cops were trying to clear the area. I walked out there was like five guy, five people like taking photos of each other in front of like some banners in front of the arena and otherwise like cricket. Like it was quiet. Downtown Oklahoma is pretty quiet anyway. Now Brickdown was off to my right. walking out of there. I'm sure Bricktown was hopping, but at least the two-block walk back to my hotel from the arena was pretty darned.

So it seems like Thunder fans celebrated responsibly. The Thunder themselves celebrated awkwardly. But again, I think it was kind of part of the charm. Last quick note, the last championship locker room I was in was two years ago in Denver. And by the time I left that locker room that night, guys, I smelled like every single part of all my clothes just into my skin

the combination of cigar smoke and champagne and that shit lasted for like days it didn't matter how much laundry I did there were no cigars this time I was actually thankful for it jars and and the champagne was not really sprayed that much

because it was definitely the tamest celebration ever that Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, that speaks to what you asked me, Logan. Like, first of all, those guys are real young when you talk about like Kobe, um, uh, KG, LeBron, what comes to mind there is like real struggle at times for them, you know, like real like at least in their, you know, Kobe maybe later, you know, when he was younger,

uh, you know, maybe you don't appreciate it the same way when you've got a decade into the league and you've been let down so many times. like not that these guys haven't overcome a lot of stuff and had their own hardships and stuff like that but it's relatively new to them to your point right and the other thing that strikes me is like Shay now that you mention it like in the post the post game like immediate grabbed him to talk about the championship and what struck me as great as a player as he is is what a lot of people say is like and I don't want to say this like in a negative way but like there's it was kind of dry right like he's kind of dry, right?

And so that's probably just who that, you know, that's just who they are. When your star is like that, that's what you're probably going to be like as a team. When your star's got some shit to him and likes to party and be out, you're going to have a little bit at it's a team. But also like, I was just saying part of this is that like this is not a team with big personalities or shit talkers or whatever. They don't preen. They don't like. And so when you win it all, you're not going to do the, yeah, like it like. they weren't shutting up the disbelievers or the nonbelievers or whatever.

Like there was no, there's no chip on their shoulder. There's no attitude. It was just like, we're really good. Oh, this is great. We're really professional. Yeah.

Oh, cool. We achieved our life dream at age 24. Wow. Awesome. Dude, here's the other thing. I'm sitting there typing badly between like, you know, midnight and one or whatever. And you look up and suddenly like,

Lou Dorts walking through the work room area. Now the workroom, workroom in quotes here, when you get to the finals, the workroom is sometimes just some back of house area that's just like a ton of cinder block and some TVs and some tables and power cord. That's it, man. Like there's no, it's not like some fancy room. It's really just a space that they've blocked off between other spaces back of house. The players, I don't know where they had been just prior to this, but they were trying to find their way back to wherever they were supposed to go next. And so, like, Lou Dort comes through with a bunch of like, like people trailing behind him,

friends and family, whatever. She walks through with the freaking MVP trophy in one hand and his phone cradled in the other and like a whole trail of like a dozen people behind him. Like what is happening here? We're sitting like this is literally the workroom. And the MVP,

the finals MVP is just like kind of like strolling through trying to find his way back to another part of the arena. It was just funny. It was just like that just added to kind of the whole like, we're doing this for the first time and everything. We're just kind of in a days. We're not sure where, we're going, what we're supposed to do next.

Just kind of wandering through the press room. It was, it was. I was going to say like they're the, they're like the spurs with a Pinterest page, but I think the spurs, even though. Where were you when I needed you on deadline, Logan? I kind of, it was a good line. I'm sorry, buddy. No, but even the spurs, like, have fun, right?

Like, I remember, I was telling Howard this over the, look at Roger knows, honorary spur, Roger Bell knows. I was telling Howard this. this, yesterday we were talking about what we're going to talk about today. But like, when the Spurs lost in 2015 in the first round of the Western Conference playoffs to the Clippers, they went on how, they took the team bus to Hollywood Boulevard and just found themselves on TMZ. That's how hard they were going, right?

I don't even think that there's, like, I don't know if this is the culture now. Like, I don't know if this is like, you know, these are still. pandemic babies, right? Like, I just don't, I don't know what this is, but like, they didn't seem to, I don't know, man. Like, it felt like Howard had a better time with Barclay the other, a couple weeks ago, right? Like, and while, you know, speaking of smelling like cigar smoke, right? Speaking of smelling like cigar smoke for the next three days.

I finally got to wash that shit, by the way. When you're on the road for like three straight weeks and you, and like, it's hard to get to laundry. I'm not, I'm not setting it out to do hotel. I had to like sequester the cigar bar flows in a separate plastic bag and a separate compartment in my suitcase so it wouldn't pollute the rest of it as I kept bouncing. Okay. You can expense the laundry back like. You're supposed to be on the road.

Wait, the rules are supposed to be a road for like two weeks. And I had like bounced home for like a 16 hour space early in the series. And I thought like I'm not. Is it, do I need to do you? Dollars are would have approved this expense, dude. Come on. Yeah, but some bean counter in Stockholm might have shot me down. it's happening.

So B counter. Oh shit. All right. Let's get this back on the rails. Jesus. Shout out to the B encounters in Stockholm. I love you. Please keep approving all of my expense reports.

I got another one coming shortly. Hey, next to Sweden trip, we got to bring Roger. We got to bring Roger, bro. You got to bring over to Sweden. I'm sure he'll be a legend there. I'm done for Sweden. Love Stockholm.

By the way, last footnote on the aftermath. because I went to breakfast yesterday in Oklahoma City because I couldn't get out. I couldn't get a flight until like the afternoon. So I had nice visually day downtown OKC. Who do I see at breakfast? Who do you see? Mark Dagdahl.

Mark Dagdahl. Just chilling with his high school coach and a high school teammate. You would have thought this was like just another summer day hanging out. You would never know that like, so this goes right to the coach as well as the players. And he was, you know, people were coming up and congratulating him, taking photos with him and all that.

Like that was cool. But Mark Dagnall did not look like a man who had just been partying all night or anything. He just, he looked like he had just like, you know, maybe finished mowing the lawn. And now I was having a nice breakfast with his high school coach hanging out. Yeah. I would have been just just. I would have been headaches, knocked, sleep. I mean, to be clear, I didn't get breakfast until maybe like 10, 10.30.

So it's not like it was early, but still, man. It would have been knocked. Still, yeah. You just won the championship. Like he should, he should have still been like, you know, past. That means you woke up at 8.30, bro. bro. I'm not, dude. And he was there,

and he was definitely there before me. So I'm just like, yeah, bro, come on. This, this is a very tame. You and Raja had more fun at the pre, the pre live pod in San Francisco, dude.

I had exponentially more fun than that on my, on Dia's official visit to Texas. Oh, shit. Yeah, no, I mean, like,

like, yeah, like, like, we've no 830 wake up calls on, on Sunday morning, my boy, that wasn't happening.

Yeah, you're supposed to be getting it. I just, that's just fascinating. to me like it's neither here nor there but like you know how how far away from the way our generation of player you know uh enjoyed themselves this generation is it's me i don't know no ral because if anthony edwards would want a championship if anthony edwards would want a championship i guarantee you that uh that they would know he's the same age of the nuggets went hard i don't know

about the celtics because the celtics are kind of built like the thunder right like really sedate kind of personalities and maybe not like I don't I don't I'm not going to a cakeback thrown by Jalen Brown it's not happening I'm not going to a party thrown by him as it seemed like a good time I don't remember last year's footage with them uh anyways um are we anything about the paces really quickly like what do the Pacers do this summer with Hallie just toward this is not for you roger it's fine we just sit this one out buddy you go on the other side of the court it's going to I'm going to doodle for a second. A doodle for a bit.

I feel like the Pacers are big Celtics vibes from the Pacers this off season. Like, I don't know. What do they do? Like gap year kind of thing, you mean? I guess so. But like, I don't know because I don't even know if you can have a gap year in the apron era. We're going to talk about this with the Drew Holidays, right? But, like, you have to pivot really fast in this league. Like, it's tempting to look at what they have done at times without Hallibus,

including in Game 7 and go, like, Man, this team, they're about their system. They're about ball movement and like, you know, you could ride DJ McConnell here and there and Nemhard here and there. But no, like, you're not, you're not back in the mix for the Easter conference finals without Halliburton and it's going to miss the hole. So it is a gap year almost by definition. The difference is, like, this is a younger team. Like, you don't have, I don't, they're not as capped out as the Celtics. They're not as, like, they don't have to take steps backward.

They do need to resign Miles Turner. but like the Pacers just got here. Halliburton's young. Most of the core is young. I think they're fine. Like it sucks. Like it sucks absolutely beyond belief. Happened.

I can't help but think about the fact that like, to the Pacers credit, they extended the series. But if they had just folded in game six, game seven never happened. I hate to say. But like you can't help but think about the what ifs and other paths that could have unfolded.

I think the Pacers are still a really good team. team next year, but obviously they're not in the mix. I don't think. At the Eastern Conference Finals and for the conference title, I don't think you're going out and making a move like, oh, can we get a stopgap to, no, like nobody's replacing Tyrese Halliburton. That dude's unique. He's the heart of your team. So, I don't know. They have a lot to think about they're smarter than I am. Kevin Pritchard in that front office, figure it out. But I think most likely the way you look at this, exactly what it looks for a really good team that just had a breakthrough season that nobody expected. We ourselves did not expect. And we know what we've got. We're going to hold it

together. And next season, we'll battle, do what we can. Right, Roger? Yep. All right, let's talk about the true holiday trade. I was really like fretting this podcast. Like, what are we going to talk about that's new? What are we going to talk about that's, that's like, you know, fresh? And then the good old Celtics. Leak a trade that they're trading true holiday to the Portland Trail Blazers for Anthony Simons and two second round draft picks. I think I'll start with Howard on this one. I think that this is like something that we're going to see more and more.

This is why analysts and observers and everyone you talk to around the league say this is going to be a crazy offseason filled with crazy curious trades just because there's a lot of contracts that have been grandfathered into this apron era, Jew Holidays. One of them is another one. Christophears-Zingis has a big deal. A lot of them on the Boston Celtics who have an expensive roster. But you're going to see these kind of like these little, these pick, these trades where it's like, oh, okay. And Drew Holliday seems to be one. We knew he was probably going to be on, get traded, especially after Tatum gets hurt.

But for Anthony Simons, that's not a bad return. I don't know how he's going to be defensively, culture shatter, but he's going to be a good score that can play alongside Jalen. What do you think about the deal? Listen, we knew all this was coming, even without the Jason Tatum, Gilles injury, even without the quote-unquote gap year assumptions, you knew that the Celtics because of second apron issues

and cap luxury tax, everything. like sale of the team, you knew they were going to pair back. So you knew that Brew, Holiday, Kraseps, Dengis, maybe others would be in play. And there's probably more to come. The question was always going to be, what are you getting back? How are you managing? How are you scaling down the salary structure of your payroll while also staying repetitive and keeping yourself in a position to be in contention again when Tatum's healthy?

that this was effortie simons is on an expiring contract so did they acquire him because they think oh this is a good young piece to add to our core when we make another run or do they acquire him because he's an expiring contract and they're just going to let him walk out walk away at the end of the season maybe they're going to flip him in the meantime i don't i don't know this thing happened on my very very very long drive back from la gordia late last night uh and i'm still like i have barely gotten, dived in. So I will say, you know, Drew Holliday's got like two more years left after next season,

including a player option. 32,034.8 and 37 million and 27, 28. Whereas Simons is like to take 27 or something. I think that that's a part of it. What do you think of the fit, Roger, when you have a guy that is an institutional piece for the Celtics. through holiday. And then you bring him back with, he's a good score. You know, he's done some good things. But, you know, he's not a, Anthony is not a culture setter for Boston, right? Like,

he's not, it seems like a, it seems like a very, if you're the Celtics, a hard tradeoff to have. But what do you think of that fit in the meantime? Well, I mean, you know, they're in a situation where they got to make some tough calls, period, right? So, you know, you're going to have to part with something somewhere that you ideally don't want to part with. For all the reasons, Howard just talked about in terms of length of contract and then flexibility to get out of it, you know, it makes sense in those regards. I'd also just say, like, in a weird way, you weren't winning a championship this year anyway without, without Jason Tatum in my estimation. And so, You know, the leadership that Drew brings and the intangibles that he bring to get you

over the hump in that championship chase, I guess, aren't maybe as important. Like, I'm just spitball in here because I, too, like I wasn't tapped in, tapped in like that. But like, you know, like you're not going to, those things aren't going to be 100% necessary in a year where we don't have to have this championship, right? Like, we'd love to have it, but it's really expensive. it becomes punitive, and we're not winning anyway this year. And then Anthony, while he might not do that, you do have a void in your scoring and a dude who, like, your, your guy is gone.

So like Jalen's stepping into that role and who's going to be the number two dude that can go get you a bucket. So you get a look at a younger player who might be able to do that for you, right, with the flexibility that if it doesn't work and there's a problem with it, we're out after a year plus we were going to have to make some moves anyway so like i don't it's neither here nor there for me but like i don't hate it like something was going to have to be done this is a blockbuster deal Howard people need to stop putting that i i can't remember who i saw within the last 24 hours go another blockbuster after the bane and durand did the bane deal was not a blockbuster this one

certainly uh durant you can take it um i just wonder like what the celtics look like assuming that Simons is staying and then there's not another maneuver here. And I don't know, you know, like, is Porzingis going next, whatever. Like, the defensive backbone of this team was really important, right? And you've already lost Tatum, who's a good defender. It Drew, who's an elite defender. So I've got Derek White moment. Simons is not a defender. I just, like, the personality of the team is already changing. And it's just going to be a really interesting stretch for the Celtics as they navigate this weird, you know, whatever you want to call it. Their gap year, their interregnum to roll out a SAT word like.

What? Can you spell that, Roger? Because I can't. Like, it's like a, you know, pause. Like a full. Use it in a sentence, please. Oh, you kind of already did, huh? Yeah.

I wouldn't know. I don't know what that popped into my head. Yeah, as I said, guys, a long few minutes. Net alert. But there's this, like this, what is this season for the Celtics? Like we are, we are just now starting to learn what it might do, right? And this is just step one. I don't know what's coming.

We got a lot of off-season to go here. But their core personality has already changed and their core skill set has already changed. Simon's great score, not a defender, much, much younger. Are you just trying to get younger? Are you just trying to fix your cap? I don't know what this. Yeah, we'll see. The last thing I'll say on this,

because we really all want to just talk about Kevin Durant right now. The last thing I'll say on this is the NBA is getting exactly what they want with this, right? They're getting player movement. There's going to be so many people that are teams that are going to try to gut their roster and help make a deal to get purchasing because I don't think he's going to be back next year. Derek White isn't going to be back next year, but you're going to see this a lot this offseason with all these expensive rosters and like Howard said, getting the book straight.

And so I think this is going to be an interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting, something. So we'll see what happens. But I just want to thank Kevin Durant and his representation first and foremost. The reason being me and Howard talked about this yesterday. Thanks so much for making this trade happen in June, opposed to August or some shit. We really appreciate it. Thanks to all the teams involved, all the executives, everybody involved. We really appreciate it. That being said,

Raja, Kevin Durant to the Houston Rockets for Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks, the number 10 pick in this year's draft five second round picks. What do you think of this for both sides? I'd love it for Houston. Yeah, I think if, If you could get Kevin Durant and not have to part with Shengoon or Men Thompson or Fredland Bleet for that matter, like I think you're good. Like I, you know, Jalen Green led them in scoring and he's a good young player. But for a team that was, what were they, second in the West this year? Yep. And knocking on the door, we saw, we saw his youth play itself out in the playoffs, right?

when like when they needed him to be there like they did not have that guy so you know obviously Kevin Durant is that in spades but but getting but getting Kevin Durant just or a piece like Kevin Durant to add to kind of that nucleus without having to give up uh those pieces I thought was dope I actually don't hate it for the sons I mean you could I've heard people argue that like they could have gotten more but like we had spoken on the pod about and you guys had talked about the market not being what people necessarily think it should be for Kevin Duran at this stage in his career. So I'm not mad at it. Like, Jalen Green again.

Like, he was the leading scorer on the number two team in the Western Conference last year. Like, there are some flaws. He's a young player, but, but getting better. I'm a Dylan Brooks fan. Like, I think he adds a level of backbone and toughness anywhere he goes. Now it comes with some shit sometimes, but, you know, I think you need those guys on your roster. I would always keep a guy like that on my roster. You know, and then they're able to, you know, they get.

some picks back. You get some, you get some ammunition. You get a top 10 this year and then some more ammunition, by the way, a second round. I didn't hate it. I love it for Houston. I didn't hate it for the Phoenix. Yeah. Let's go to Kevin Durant angle first. I do want to talk about Phoenix because I do have some thoughts on them, but I'm happy about this trade for Kevin. I think this is a really, I wrote about it yesterday on the ringer.com. I should go check that out. I think this is a really good reset for him, considering, you know, just the decisions that he's made over the last few years in terms of teams, like they've been, have gone down horribly. And, you know, you put them with a good nucleus and a team that actually needs them. I do have some reservations with

the leadership aspect. Now he's going to be a number one leader in that locker room. And he's going to have to figure out just, you need a certain type of personality for the team like that. And I guess you can make the argument that Emma Udoka will be that type of leader. Yeah. Ben Bleet too. Ben Bleak, yeah. Sure. But the thing that's always been with Durant is he's always been supremely gifted on the basketball court in a way that you kind of need him to be that type of leader.

And he just hasn't been that type of leader. and because of the gravity that he has, he can either bring the locker room up or down. And the last couple of stops, he's done the latter. He's brought the lot. He in tandem with a lot of different things. The locker room just hasn't been what you would want it to be for a championship team.

So there's going to have to be some soul searching on that point for the Rockets, no matter I think who the leadership is because he's such a big piece. And that's kind of what the first thoughts that I got going into this and his fit there, Roger. Yeah, that's cool. I think that, you know, Howard, great point on Fred Van Vlee because he's, you know, like he's got some shit to him too. But I think a lot of the Kevin Durant piece, teams can be led and follow the lead of like

an in locker room leader. In a lot of instances, you'd love to have that, like a really strong personality, who's one of your best players that just drives culture. but in other instances it can be driven by um can be driven by by by by by leadership you know front office can have a very very strong culture that they build and and that permeates through the building and in other instances it can be the coach and ima yudoka is certainly a dude that drives culture so i i would bet you like that that in this situation Kevin durant as as the leader um or or at times

you know, the perception of the lack of leadership isn't going to be an issue at all. I think they're uniquely equipped with EMA in that in that, in that, in that seat. And Fred Van Vleet that he hops in there and he's fine. I mean, who was leading it this year? Jalen Green wasn't your culture driver, was he? Like it was. No, I think it was Emma Yudoka's team. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I also think that's why they got Van Vleet when they got him. Remember, like when they were, when they first brought him in, it was, they're young, they got a lot of talents, a lot of recent lottery picks, whatever. They need a culture shift. And I think Eme and Van Vleek came around the, I think it was the same summer, right? And, you know, you like having that extension of the coach on the court, you know, both because he's the point guard in this instance, but also because, like, another kind

of like no nonsense going to tell you what's up kind of personality. And so I think that's great. And I also think, like, Durant is like, we've seen a lot of guys like this over the decades, right? He'll be the best player on your team, and he's a culture center in the way he plays, but he's the quote unquote lead by example type, which by which I mean, if you're leading by example, you're not actually a lead. Like, it's fine that you're the first dude in the gym.

It's fine that you work hard. It's fine that you do everything you're supposed to do and get your stuff done. It's fine that you play the right way or whatever else. Any of those other descriptions you want to put on having a best player who uphold certain standard that everybody else has to follow. That's fine. But we know what we mean when we say leader. we mean the guy who can actually get in guys faces and tell you when you're out of line

or tell you when you're not moving the ball or whatever. And Durant's actually the kind of guy who actually, I think benefits sometimes for having one of those guys next to him to remind him when to do the right thing. Because when you're to that talented, sometimes you forget that you have teammate. And I think Durant's been a really selfless star for most of his career. But everybody needs that reminder sometimes. So whether that's the coach with Eme, whether it's Van Bleet, you know, I saw versions, of this, like, even with, you know, like Carmelo, Anthony's not at Durant's level, but Carmello

was a really great score who was at his best when he had either Jason Kidd or Chauncey Phillips as his point guard. Guys who were like really strong personalities, strong leaders who knew the game, who were super smart and would, and could call you out when, and everybody else too for that matter. So I think it's a good situation for him. Also, like at this stage of his career, you know, he's turning 37 in September. Haiti's still been pretty productive, but like, you don't want to be. the night in, night out, carry the team guy in.

And they're better off that he can be closer, but they've got Schengoon can score. And, you know, Van Blit. Amin Thompson, obviously, is just growing by leaps and bounds. And I think ultimately becomes their best player after Grant retires. I'm curious to see how KD decides what the balance is between fitting in or being the guy, right? Like, how much do you want to blend versus how much do you want to lead in terms of even just, how much of the offensive load you take on? Because he knows his body.

He knows he's getting toward the end. And I'm sure he can recognize that a man. Thompson's going to be an absolute stud in this league. We thought the Phoenix was going to be like the last chapter. But now like, okay, this is the last chapter. I mean, God forbid there's another trade. I don't think so. I think this is probably where Katie retires.

What do you want out of that last stop now that you? Yeah. And I mean, like one of the things that being Howard have talked about, me and Roger have talked about is like Katie's one of them players that deserves this at the end of his career, right? And I think over the last few years, you've seen some of his peers kind of get at least a chance. One last chance to, you know, get to the mountaintop, right? LeBron has Luca, Steph has Jimmy Butler. And, you know, they've seen that success over the last five years that a guy like KD and his talent should be, right?

This is the stage that he should be at, right? And he hasn't gotten to that stage for a myriad of reasons, right? You talk about what happened with Kyrie and what happened with James Hard in Brooklyn and how that didn't go well. And then we already have kind of lived through what's going on in Phoenix. And to your leadership point, Howard, you're right on track when you talk about him needing somebody that's hard, nose beside him because he didn't have that in Phoenix. And you kind of saw where the locker room went. like Chris Paul leaving that Phoenix, that Phoenix team when he did was like really

catastrophic in that time, right? Like there was no one to kind of galvanize that locker room because D. Book is the same way as KD is. He needs somebody that's going to, you know, shift culture. But I'm happy for it ultimately, you know, I want to see a guy like KD just, I mean, I don't know how far Houston is going to go, but the West is wide open, right? I think that they can make some noise. We'll see what happens.

How big, though, Raja is the growth of Amman Thompson. Right? Like, he still needs for them to kind of take that next step. He needs to become whatever, you know, platitude of players that he's supposed to be. But like, what does he need to do next year? We need to see from him. First of all, I want to go back to the Devin Booker and Kevin Durant thing. Like, you can get away with that.

but you need your coach to be that dude then you need him to be the driving force of culture and leadership and have the strong hand and be just a stud in that way right and they they couldn't find that with those two right so like you know then you have to have it on the court but let's mn thompson this is a really good situation for him as i see it because he doesn't take the step next year into the dude that i think he can be that doesn't happen over a summer right like so You know, I think as he was this past year and as close as they got to having real legs in the Western Conference race, playoff race with who he was this year, adding Kevin Durant's skill set to that, you're already better. If he gets better over the summer, just marginally better, one summer better, then you have a shot, even in the Western Conference. Now, what we don't want to do is stunt his growth in any way, shape, or form because this is a long play with him, right?

Like, the player we're thinking, we might see maybe two, three years down the line when he's mastered, like, all of these different areas of the game to go along with all of the cool shit he's already got. So as an organization and as KD, you know, you got to kind of be mindful of stunting his growth long term, right? Like, we still want to give him an opportunity to explore some of these areas. areas in game. But I think it's good for him because the pressure doesn't fall to him this year to have to be that in a way that the Rockets would need him to be it without KD to be successful. So with KD there, it's not unlike the Luca situation. I mean, the, you know, the Cooper Flagg situation going to a place like Dallas where you have these dudes who can do all of that. And so I can just continue to be this great talent, this winning talent, this explorative, like talent,

and develop into exactly what I should be in the time that it, that, that, that is appropriate for that to happen. So I think it's a really good fit. And I do think of men Thompson, yes, the upside is extremely high. The, the, the ultimate upside of that was not going to be reached over the course of one summer. So I don't think this stunts it at all really. Also, man, like, they didn't give up Jabari Smith Jr. too. Like, this is a deep roster, dude. Like, they're, they're going to be really good. I don't know what they're going to be. I just know I'm going to be excited to watch them play. They're going to be really fun to watch.

Part of the reason, yeah, just part of the reason why this is a great deal for them is that they got Durant while still keeping a ton of first round picks that they've gotten, including Phoenix still, without giving up any of their best players. Like, I know Jaling Green was like, you know, leading score, but he's not, it was not their best player. He was not one of the most important players. he was among their high profile players he was probably the most dispensable i think they might miss gonna sound like i'm just being dick now they're gonna miss dylan brooks more than jaling especially because you what's that negative they will um he's their leading score Howard like

i feel you i don't hear the way you feel about him but like yeah you don't inefficient and they had to bench him in fourth quarter's playoff games raja i'm not going to argue with you on this howard you don't like your best score people are your best score people are your best because the team recognizes he's the best score. Not because he takes all the shots. Like there's a deference that comes in a locker room. Like if I'm the coldest motherfucker on the planet, I'm not about to watch you go out there

and shoot all the shots and lead us and score. And so what I'm saying to you is at least in some part, people on that roster. But what if you swapped him for Kevin Duran? Yeah, they replaced him with Katie. So like, it's not. Well, that's not what, that's, of course Kevin Duran is better than that. But like, that is, that is a play.

He's a, he's a good play. player. Like, he's not a finished product, but that's a very good player. Now, you can argue with me that Dylan Brooks, if you bring Kevin Durant in there and put him on a team, would you miss Dylan Brooks on the Kevin Durant-led Rockets more or Jaylin Green? They're going to miss Dylan Brooks more. They're not going to miss Jalen Green. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. They couldn't wait to get rid of Jane Green. I disagree. I disagree. He's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, look. Okay. I, I don't, look, I don't like to hear any like Jalen Green's a basketball player bro. He's a good basketball. Yeah, no, he's

got shit to grow on. He's got to get better. But like, I'm going to give him his motherfucking flowers on being the leading score on a second on a second place team in the Western Conference. Like, that's going to happen. It's fine. I get it. He's a volume score. He's not efficient. He's not efficient and they couldn't trust him in quarters. It's a short term fix with Kevin Durant. So was Kevin Durant until he got to the Golden State Warriors and won the championship. Like, he might not have been inefficient, but he didn't win shit. Like, we can't, we can't. Listen, I'm not comparing Oklahoma City era Kevin Durant to Jalen Green. But Howard, look, you're kind of falling into the category of dudes I used to argue with in front offices, though.

Like, analytics be damned. Like there's a level of basketball player that goes out there and my man can hoop. I'm not going to argue with him that like Kevin Durant is clearly, I'm a fucking Kevin Durant stand. Like, yes. But like trying to make it sound like he wasn't worth what he was worth to Houston last year, I think is a little disrespectful to him. Okay. As we move to the Phoenix side of this, though, Raja, you take him and you put him next to Devin Booker,

and now I'm worried about like, like, if I'm the sons, I'll just say this. And again, that's your team. And I think you're already going glass half full here on the trade for them because most people have hated this for the sun's side of it. Do you like Devin Booker and Jalen Green together? And if I were to say, as I have said, probably on the phone with Logan yesterday.

I'm moving Jalen Green as quickly as I can and flipping him for something else. Are you disagreeing or do you think that that is actually a rational, logical pairing? I'm fine with that. I said I didn't hate it for the Sons because like you had to move Kevin Durant. You weren't moving Devin Booker.

And if you had to move Kevin Durant and you're able to get a young scorer like Jalen Green, a piece like Dylan Brooks and a bunch of picks, like if the market isn't there for him, I said I didn't hate it for him, but I'm not arguing if I can flip that and get something that fits better with Devin Booker. I'm fine with it. How's the fit? Yeah, but that's the thing. How's the fit? Because I don't like it. Yeah, I'm not saying that it's a great fit. Like, those are two dudes that like to have the ball in their hands. Like, I think, I think Devin Booker's

way further along, obviously, in his arc as a, as a professional. And I don't love the natural fit of it, right? But that's not what I was arguing previously. No, I guess. Arguing was the value that he had to Houston, right? But if you're telling me they can flip him and get something that's more that's more complimentary with DeBook as a player and in terms of like, as a as a natural like fit in terms of arc of windows and whatnot, like I'm fine with that. Yeah.

I think that Phoenix doesn't necessarily have a plan here because like obviously they got to 10th pick and all that stuff. But they're not winning a championship with this roster, which is what. Matt Ishbaea says he wants to do for Devin Booker. And the only way to win a championship right now, as they're currently constructed, is to break everything down and build and build from within and then build up a championship roster. I just don't.

I feel like Matt Ishbigh, and he's gotten a lot of heat on this pod, but I feel like he is the guy that, and we all know this person, that you tell him this isn't the right play. Like, experienced people are telling him, yo, this isn't the right play. And he's doubling and tripling down to prove to everybody that he can make this happen

when the people that are telling him are right. And I don't know where this goes because I think he's past new owner syndrome. I think it's just like right now, Howard, I just think it's an ego play. And listen, this is just a kind of clean up on aisle seven of the last couple of screw-ups, right? Like, you're not, you're not getting back the value for Durant that you shipped out to get

Durant. You're never recouping what you got on the Beal side of it and you're stuck with Beal. You're just stuck, period. And so this is just like step one toward trying to get unstuck. That's all this is. The sons are not moving the ball forward here. They're simply trying to get unstuck. You pissed off KD by trying to trade him without talking to him at mid-season.

Now you have to trade him. You're already out all the draft picks that you sent out to get him in the first place. There's no upside here other than we need to get our books back in order. We need to give ourselves flexibility again. We need to hope there's some way of you're not saving face. You're not even being competitive. Like this is still not, I don't even know this is even a play in team yet. And Beal is, you're stuck with Beal.

They should be trading Devin Booker. Devin Booker says he doesn't want to go. They say they don't want to trade him fine. Like I get it. That's probably not happening. and so I shouldn't waste that much time on it. But the best path back to functionality as a franchise is trading Booker because the package you got back from Durant

did not make you better. Maybe they can flip Jalen Green for pieces that are better fitting with Book. You're not trading Beal because he's basically untradable. And if you do trade him, it's going to be for negative value. There is no short-term path back to respectability here with the team you have and with the people. payroll as it is. Your best way out of this is to actually trade Devin Booker, the one guy who can get

you a shit ton back and put you on the past back to like a functional roster. But as long as that's not happening, the rest of this is almost irrelevant. They're not going anywhere. The sons are a map. And reputationalally, I want to add to this before we get some mailbag. I think reputationalally, how they treated Kevin is going to reverberate for them for sure. Like you talk about the trade and the blindsidedness. Like, the way you win in the NBA is stars, and stars see how you treat other stars. And I think that that's something that's going to follow Matt Ishfia

because for a minute, man, and follow the front office and the sons for a minute because you have to, no matter even if you trade him, you have to treat your players right or to a certain standard. And I know that there was back and forth, but you made a commitment to KD. You got to at least do right by him in this way. and I think that they've just, that they have fumbled on that.

And I think that the rest of the league is watching this. Not just from like how you treated a player, but just like you just get your shit together. And the sons, we all know this. Me and Roger talk about this all the time. The sons have an incredible fan base. Has a really great basketball culture and knows what winning takes, what it takes to win.

And you come up in here with all your bread and stuff like that. And then, kind of fumble out the gate. And I think the fan base at first sees it as like, hell yeah, you know, you're wanting to win and you're ready to put resources around it. But like, it's the honeymoon phase is over. Like, I think Ishby has a lot that he needs to prove over the next few years.

This is a start to that. But like, there's a long road back to where he wants to get to. So we'll see what happens. For 50 minutes in, we haven't seen our guy Cliff. And we're going to change that now. Cliff, what's up, buddy? How are we doing? Family.

Are you doing okay in the heat, brother? I'm chilling, I'm chilling, bro. Come on, man. I was June 18th weekend. You'd invite me, Raj and Howard out to D.C. with you. Come on, man. What'd you be? It was cool, man.

D.C. was a good time. He had so much fun, he got stuck in an elevator. That's how much fun he had. Oh, that's a nightmare. Who took that photo, Cliff? How long were you in? So we was going to, uh, so there's a spot called Park in D.C. and we were going up to the third floor

because that's where our little table thing he was. We had a table? I didn't have the table. It was just like one of my friends' friends is like a content creator, so he just wanted to record like the night that was or whatever, whatever his Juneteeth weekend was going to be. So you got stuck in the elevator.

You had the little phone drawing out with the, you know, I'm talking about the little handheld joint where keeps the camera still, keeps the phone still. So it was one of those situations. But yeah, we was in elevator for a little hot second. We got out of there. Luckily, they reset the, the elevator at park. You had to walk up three floors and we had a good night, man. So it was a good

time in D.C. How long were you in the elevator? Like, I don't know, 10, 15. Oh, that's light. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't too bad. Luckily, they didn't go up so we didn't get stuck like in the middle between floors or whatnot. That would have been even worse. But yeah, they just reset the thing. It was cool, walked up, had a good night. You know what I mean, had some fun. You know, you know, had a good time, Raj. You know how that be. I do know how that goes. Good for you, bro. Did you have a better time than the Oklahoma Thunder? Man,

little young boys alone, man. They just want to go home, kick it, play their games, have fun. Some Bible verses. Yeah.

They don't need, they don't need to be outside drinking and whatnot, doing things that, you know, there isn't an outside in Oklahoma City, to be fair.

There's an outside. There's an outside. There's an outside. But by the way, by the way, I can't remember who said it to me if somebody on Blue Sky did send me

a map of the parade route to re-emphasize the fact that there is plenty of square footage there for them to have a decent-sized parade without ending up. So thank you for whoever said that to me. It's a good running. It's a good running. Oklahoma City, where everybody gets home in five minutes after the biggest parade in the state history.

You can't even celebrate after the game either. For the record, anybody who's now getting annoyed at this, now it's Logan making fun of size. Not me now. So direct all the iron. Hey, hey, Howard. It's actually the biggest state capital in the country or one of them. So you shut the hell up. Anyways, Cliff, what's the first question?

All right. This is playing injure from Ziyadh, Amma, Parker. Hi, guys. I want to know from Raja, what's his take on playing injured? Like what happened, what Hald's burden did? I mean, biggest game of his career for sure. Not to probably do it as well. But yeah, is it worth it in the long term? Love the show and the energy. Great group of guys that Logan brings together so well.

Conrad Zayad Ahmad Parker. This is a tough one for me because, you know, having played through a torn calf, right? It's going to come off very hypocritical. You know, and when you're in it and like Hallie put out, whatever he put out about he'd do it all over again, like given the opportunity to try to win for the city. Like that's genuine, man. That's the way you feel. Like you feel like you've let everyone down when you get injured,

even though you don't control that. You feel like you've let your team down. You feel like you've let the city down, your coaches, the organization, everybody. And so, you know, the champion in you, like the warrior in you, wants to get out there and go and give it everything you have. Then what I stepped away from it,

and I remember, you know, the first time I really felt like I was watching KD. And I referenced this the other day. I was sitting with Texas's general manager at this official visit. And he was asking me some questions. And I said, yeah, when Kevin Durant, when he had that calf strain, I was begging him. Like no one, you know, he wasn't listening to what we were saying or no one in Golden State was either. But I was with another company at the time.

I was like, don't go out there and do it. Do not go out there and do it. And I was saying the same to Halley this time because it's just, it's not. It's not worth that. Like it's just not worth that. And I say all that to say that at some point, you know, I tried to fool our medical team, right? Like, and I was able to do that. Like, I was able to go and get acupuncture and different kind of treatments over the course of three days that basically shut the nerves off in my lower leg.

So when they were putting me through all the tests that they were kind of using their eyeball to figure out whether I was good enough to play or not, the pain wasn't there. I could fool them a little bit, right? And that's what we'll try to do. But it's, it's, it's your organization's job to kind of protect them from themselves, right? Like, and even if they can fool medical, then it falls to like the executives to, to make those calls in a way that are responsible. And I get it.

Like you're in a one game scenario there, right? You've come like, you're 99.9% of the way home. Like Kevin Durant might have been 99. What was it seven? Did it? Was he in game seven as well? No. Five?

Right. So maybe a fractionally less. So that's an incredibly difficult call to make. And I respect that. Like I don't envy that. But man, those lower leg pulls. If you're telling me it's a pulled groin,

a pulled hamstring, a pulled adductor, you know what I mean? Like any of those, but when you start messing with that calf, which is directly related in that kinetic chain that at Achilles, I hope that boys start looking at that now and saying, yeah,

Should the team have stopped him? Should somebody else say, Roger, like, because you, you just said it. You were able to fool your medical staff back in the day. Maybe that you'd have a harder time doing that with all the technology they got today. Right. But like, shouldn't somebody else be stepping him like, we know that a strained calf can lead to a rushed Achilles. No, you can't play. That's what I'm saying.

That's what I'm saying, Howard, like, because. Yeah. And in fairness to like the people that I fooled, you didn't have a litany of pulled of torn Achilles recently, right? And you didn't have any that you pointed to like calf strain game later torn Achilles. Like there was no, there was nothing to suggest that at the time. It's out there now. Yeah. And it also like, it's funny, Nico Harrison got a straight for this too. I saw on a social media because of him reportedly trying to rush Luca Dodgers back from a calf injury this season or at least using that as using that as a reason to be mad at him for the

Right. But it's, calf injuries are tricky, right? Because on the surface, you're like, it's just a calf, dude. Like, relax. But like you said, it's on the kinetic chain. And someone who lived every day of that KD return, it was just nauseating, just all of the updates. And it was very clear. And I kept getting a flashback.

It was very clear that KD shouldn't have played for the rest of that series. And I know why, right? Like, on the surface, yes, you shouldn't play on a strained calf. but Roger knows this. There's so many factors that's in play, right? Especially when you are the guy on a roster in a stage like the NBA finals, right? And so many legacies are on the line. But I remember when the calf injury first happened.

I believe it's when it first happened, right? I think it was when I saw, was it game two Howard? Or Houston? No, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm talking about Halliburton. Was it game two when the first? when the calf injury happened?

He had, he had, I think he had like an ankle thing first. And then it was like, and then he said when he was asked about it, he said they were separate injury. Because the calf thing, like these were,

he limped away from game two in Oklahoma. And people noticed it as he was leaving the arena. And but that was a, what he said it was a different injury. By the time the calf thing happened, which was I think game three or four. And he was asked to clarify, If I said it was, I don't know, man.

And we know how this goes. Like one thing can lead to the next. And then game five, he was really nursing that calf. And I was like, man, is he, are we sure he should be playing right now? Right. Because five, he, he didn't make a shot. He was like, oh, for six. He couldn't move.

And he tripped and fell in like this in a similar way. And it did, it just didn't look good. Like, if I'm the Pacers and again, we ain't shit, we're just, you know, three, three or four smucks talking. But if I'm them, I see what happens in game five. Me and Howard saw with our own eyes because we were in the building.

It looks like a guy that this was like a ticking time bomb for his Achilles. It looked like that if you watched him play. And that's what, like I remember watching, I was not surprised at all. He tore his Achilles in game seven. As soon as he fell down, I'm like, oh, torn Achilles.

It's over. Yeah. I was hopeful when I saw the pop, sorry, Howard, that it was, that it was, you know, that it was, you know, as soon as it happened, I was with you, Logan. but I saw when they replayed it, it looked,

you could see the reverberation high up in like the gastroch muscle. So I was like, man, maybe he got away with just like, like really popping his calf. Like maybe the calf just went. You know what I mean? Like I was, I was holding out hope. But what happens when you can't, when your calf can't do what it's supposed to do, like it's the next closest, it puts stress on like the next closest thing, right?

Like, because your calf isn't operating to protect the Achilles the way that it normally should. It's exposing the fucking. to a lot of stress that it's not normally exposed to. And so, you know, again, I know what it's like to be there and and look in the eyes of people and feel like, bro, we got this far. If I can just help you get through it, like, you know, we'll be our right and roll the dice in that way. And I and I rolled them and I, and I was lucky. Um, it's got to be so difficult because it's got to be so difficult for the people that Hauer and I are talking about that should be protecting

Hallie from himself or should be protecting me from myself or KD from himself because they cannot feel what we're feeling. All they can do is look at it and then look at you in the eye and be like, yo, what are you feeling? And, and, you know, it's an incredibly difficult thing to say, no, I'm not, I'm not buying that. We're shutting you down to protect you. Like, it's got to be, that's got to be excruciatingly hard. I just want to throw out one more thing on me. because this is about the discourse and the media and fans are part of this too. And hell, man, even former players are part of this too. The man up, go out there and do it anyway, play anyway.

And like Halliburton, his own sense of pride and responsibility might have driven him to take the risk anyway, right? He may have just done it. That's the way he's wired. And this is why you have people needing to step in because as a competitor, you can't sometimes reason through. this and you're going to take risks maybe you shouldn't take and somebody else has to tell you not to. So I respect the fact that Halliburton might have done this regardless. And so it's not because of the discourse, but I hate the fucking deal. And I hated it during the Cav series when I heard some pretty prominent people at times saying, oh, Garland should have just manned up and got

out there, did it, whatever. Garland's now had surgery and is going to be like, I don't know if he's missing training camp or the start of the season. Like, ended up being a pretty serious thing. It is so stupid and ignorant of us and presumptuous of us in the fucking. peanut gallery to ever say that guy should play through that injury. Because you don't know exactly how severe it is. We only sometimes get, you know, 70, 80, 90 percent of the actual information. We don't have the MRIs in front of us. And we're not doctors or trainers. Like, it is, if a guy is not playing, my policy personally has always been, and I hope I have never veered from this. You have to defer to the player and that team that they have made the right

decision. If you're thinking, huh, why can't he play through that? Maybe there's a reason that you just don't know, because we're not privy to all of it. And before you just assume that the guy is just, you know, being, being weak or whatever, however you want to frame it, realize we don't always have all the information. And it's their careers that are at stake. Yeah. So I just, I fucking hate that stuff. And there was a little bit of it around this one. And there was definitely around during the Cavs series with Garland and Mobile. What was, what was? What was, what? was garland what were there injuries you remember uh garlands i think is a is it a foot i thought it was i thought it was a foot i'm like yeah i think it's a foot injury here it's i

just want to add to that toe this big toe like turf toe yeah that's that's excruciatingly toe surgery at four to five months and you need a surgery that would put him out for four to five months and bro and also your big toe is so important dude no yeah you're there's no what he does There's no explosion. There's no, there's no get off with the big toe

that's on fire like that. But here's, you know, and when I played, I, there's so many things that you can play through, right?

Like there's so many things, a general NBA player has something hurt every fucking night. Like there's something hurting you every night. Now, do you have an actual injury?

Not all the time, right? And so, you know, trying to figure your way through, like what I can play through what I can't play for. I used to always like to ask like, can I make it worse?

Right? Because like if I can make it worse, then, you know, maybe not. If this is something that's not going to get worse and it's purely pain tolerance, then then I'm going to play it. Like that's not a problem. I'll play through that. Right. And then and we'll work that out.

But and and but now again with just the, with the amount of times that you've seen the direct correlation between the calf strain and the, and the Achilles, the answer to that if the question were posed should have been, yeah, you can make it worse. I wonder if that conversation happened, Rajah. Like, I wonder if he, like, if he asked it, if somebody said, yes, that is a risk, but it's up to you to take it or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, again, we will never know what that conversation was.

It just, but it just sucks. I just, I felt, I felt horrible. I had a pit in my stomach all night after that. Just knew. You know, we didn't know, but we knew. No doubt. All right, next question. This is from Dylan Bateman.

Nick's coaching question. Hi, Rowans. My name is Dylan from Vancouver, Canada, and I'm a longtime listener and fan of the show. Had them out of my question about this Knicks coaching search. If the Knicks end up hiring Taylor Jenkins, can we give the front office some credit? If Dolan doesn't know Jenkins,

do we think that Leon Rose and the rest of the front office did a fake coaching search to show that all the most experienced candidates were spoken for, meaning they needed to pick their own and not Dolan's guy? I always thought that Taylor Jenkins was the best person for job if the Knicks want their debt pieces to be stronger. So is there any way this has all been a ploy so they could hire the person they've wanted all along, but Dolan might have been hesitant about. Thanks. Love the pod. Best Dylan. You know what this sounds like, Raja? A Howard question. Yeah. Facts. Oh, man. I love the theory. That's fun. I mean,

listen, I'm the guy who two couple weeks ago did say, again, on Blue Sky and only blue sky. I can't tell if they're the Knicks front office is like trolling all of us and trolling the league or trolling the owner of the team with all this. Can we get Jason Kid? Nope, denied. Can we get, you know, Quinn Snyder, can we get, like, as they're going through all these calls of trying to get all these coaches who are under contract, which is incredibly unusual. I don't think I've ever seen this happen.

I haven't ever happened where they're trying to get all the guys who are always. under contract first. Something about that was, I don't know, odd, off, weird. Taylor Jenkins, among the coaches who are available, is a really attractive one. You know, Mike Brown, Michael Malone, like, there are some really good accomplished coaches who are sitting right there. If they end up with Taylor Jenkins, I think they've gotten, it's a good result. To the emailer's question, like, I think it's a good result, whether it was what they

wanted to do all along and the rest of this was just the show they were putting on for Dolan. I can't dismiss it. I can't dismiss anything when it comes to Madisonburg Garden, an unusual place. But Taylor Jenkins would be a good result. And, you know, I'm just curious to see how soon they get there. Last I heard the expectation was they were not hiring somebody by the time of draft. We're now about 36 hours from the draft. I'm guessing. I'm guessing. I'm the draft but um kind of want to get somebody in soon you certainly have to have them in place by the time you're sending guys to summer league and trying to figure out what you're running and how you're developing guys what offseason program is like it seems like they need to get

soon yep perfect one more last one this is real quick this is from Tommy Statler with KD being a notorious coach killer and he made Duka just having gotten an extension who wins Tommy Stettler. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Logan. Go ahead. I was just saying, M. Udoka who's winning this one.

I don't think it's, I really don't think it's going to be that adversary. I think this is going to be a really good fit for them. I think, I really do. I think it can be a great fit. Whether they ultimately win a championship or not, I don't know,

but I think it's going to be exactly, this is exactly what KD needed in my estimation. Real talk. Absolutely. I think that, but like, you know, the problem with,

like, The last two choices that KD made in terms of free agency was that he just picked choices that just didn't suit his personality, to be honest with you. I think that maybe part of that was like, I can do this on my own, a little bit of that, right? And, um, but he put people around him that would not win a, uh, an argument with him. Let's just say that, right? Like, in that he could kind of have more power over here, like, he's always, kind of neat.

Like we said this early in the pot, he's always kind of needed just a personality, alpha, whatever you want to call it, to just kind of offset what he does, right? And I think that, I think ultimately he is going to fall in line with what M.A. is talking about

because, like, at the end of the day, Katie is a Hooper's Hooper's Hooper. That's what he is. That's what he wants to do. That's who he is. He wants to play basketball. And all the other stuff is,

will fall in line. But when you got a guy that just wants to play basketball, basketball, basketball. You need the raw-rah types. You need the Russell Westbrooks. You need the Jarmond Greens. Honestly, you need the guys that are going to be culture setters. And he has all that in one.

What the fuck? Exactly. Yeah, right. The Jalen Greens of the world. Exactly. Anyways, this is going to be a great. Rod's just waiting until we're an hour and eight minutes into like stir this shit up again.

nicely done sir i couldn't help wait a way to cut we're back the gang is back but back just in time to shut down for the summer yep um all right that has been another edition of real ones i am logan murdock that is howard motherfucking beck that is raja bell cliff on the boards victoria on the videos um another addition of real ones tap in with us on Friday. Rearonesmailbag at gmail.com. Reronesmailbag at gmail.com. Rewansmailbag at gmail.com.

We've been mailbagged out for the last few weeks, so I think we're not going to do a mailbag on Friday. And that's all I really have to tell you about Friday, because I don't know what the hell is going to go on. I don't even know who's going to be here. All the shits. Bye.