The Ringer NBA Show - Are We In or Out on LeBron, Davis, Zion, Durant, Kyrie, and More? | Heat Check (Ep. 392)

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

With so many story lines in the NBA, which ones are we in on (3:41)? Then: the New Orleans Pelicans’ continuing conundrum (30:55) and the most interesting MVP candidates of the season (44:21). Host: John Gonzalez Guests: Shea Serrano, Dan Devine Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of Heat Check is brought to you by Belvedere, produced in one of the world's longest running distilleries. Belvedere vodka is the world's finest all-natural vodka. Part of a 600-year Polish vodka-making tradition, Belvedere is made with non-GMO Polish rye, pure water, and no additives. Recognized for quality, Belvedere was named the ISC World Vodka producer of the year in 2015, 2016, and 2017. Enjoy a delicious cocktail with Belvedere vodka today. and remember, always drink responsibly. Welcome to Heat Check. I am not Chris Ryan.

I am your once and future host. John Gonzalez, joined, not even joined, reunited with my main man, producer, Isaac Lee. You're supposed to play the reunited part. Oh, there it is. It's great to come back to you berating me. So it's great to return to the pre-existing relationship. I said to you, I wanted to play this song because I missed you so much.

But I wasn't entirely certain that you had heard of this song because it's pre-1995. Yeah, but it's iconic. It is iconic. So you're on board with the song. Yeah, it crosses a certain threshold of fame that even I know this song. I'm proud of you. And I missed you. I'm glad to see your smiling face.

I was out for a while, contrary to popular belief, I was not on vacation. I was out on assignment. It was a story that has taken some effort reporting-wise, but it will be coming out on Wednesday. I'm being a little cagey about this. Yeah, you're being quite a... I didn't even tell you where I went. No, you didn't before you left. And I asked Chris and was like, yeah, yeah, he's in...

Yes, I went to a certain place to do a certain story that'll be out on Wednesday. I hope everybody will read it. I've been working on it for a little while now. But now I'm back in the mix with the NBA. And I want to thank Chris Ryan for holding it down for me. He killed it while I was gone. And so to Justin Various, so thanks to those guys. And thanks for listening to the NBA show.

And he checked, please rate and review us and all of our fantastic NBA shows and pods. And of course, like I mentioned, my story will be on the ringer.com. I love the ringer.com. I highly recommend it. We have a lot of really good stuff on there. Right now, KOC Charks and Danny have their 2019 NBA draft big board up. I was very excited about that because that's where I get all my draft news. I don't have the RAM to watch college basketball, so I just let them do it for me. You're like a computer. You don't, you don't have enough space. I have very limited space, very limited circuits that can fire. You outsource it. It's a smart economic decision. They do it for me. also has a story about the ripple effects of getting rid of the one and done rule in the NBA. Katie Bakes, always read Katie Bakes, but especially read Katie Bakes on the Knicks. She had a very good piece on the Knicks. Jason is killing it with NBA desktop. And also shouts to all of our Oscars people, Amanda and Sean and Andrew and Allison and Miles that killed it with the Oscars. And one more shout out to Kevin Clark for putting his job on the line with a piece about robbercraft being snared in a prostitution and human trafficking sting. It was fun working

with Kevin Clark. He'll be missed. Later in the show, Dan Devine will be here to break down the Pelican's weird front office structure and discuss his five most interesting MVP candidates. But first, I've been gone for a while. I want to get back into the groove and have a little fun. And for that, we need one of our favorites here at Heechak. Let's bring him in. Boots Shakalaka.

He's heating up. All right, joining me on the line. One of our favorites here at Heichek. He's a staff writer at The Ringer. He's an accomplished author of multiple books, including the next one that's coming out, movies and other things. It's Shea Serrano. What up?

What up, sir? You guys dropped the art for the new book, right? Yeah, we put a cover on the internet today. And it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. You should check it out. I will check it out. Is it available for... I have to because you have me on your wonderful villains podcast,

and I got to support the team. Is it available for pre-order yet? Yeah, you can pre-order it everywhere. Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Barnes & Noble has a special edition. Oh, yeah? A movie poster in the back. It can be really cool.

All right. I want an autographed copy. We'll talk about that. I texted you and said, you know, come on the show. I don't know what we're going to do yet. And then I came up with this weird idea where I was like, there's a lot of things happening in the NBA. So I said, hey, what if we do?

I'll present you with a bunch of stuff. And then you tell me either you're here for it or because this one of your bits on Twitter, fuck out of here. And you're like, oh, yeah, I did a column about that. Yeah, we did that exact column, like over a year ago. fuck out of here or fuck in here. And it's the dumbest thing. But sure, let's do that.

Let's do that. Great minds think alike. I must have deleted that from my memory. So it's perfect that you're on board with it. All right. So I'll present you with some scenarios and then you tell me, let's do your version. Let's do fuck in here or fuck out of here. All right.

So LeBron, LeBron and the Lakers. In here. In here. Whatever you're going to say. In here. LeBron and the Lakers lost to the Pelicans without Anthony Davis somehow. And LeBron. who has the shop, has, you know, his production company, is doing space jam too.

All of a sudden, he, like, gives this quote to the media and he's like, hey, is basketball the most important thing in your life or not? And if it's not, why are we doing this? And I want to read you the word soup that he said, like, I guess trying to motivate his people. And then you tell me, then you tell me. He said, let me hear it. When you've never been there or know what it takes to actually shoot for something like that, sometimes you're afraid to get uncomfortable. So you got to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. So I'm not saying that's what we are as a whole. It kind of looks that way at times that sometimes we're afraid to be uncomfortable

and kind of get out of our comfort zone and kind of, you know, have that sense of urgency from the jump and not be afraid to actually go out and fail to succeed. Your verdict on that word soup, TED talk. Oh, I love it. Do you not understand what he's saying? I have no idea what that means. And it makes perfect sense. What are you talking about?

You have no idea. just say, we got to win more games. And they're afraid to try hard to win more games because they've never had to do that before. Now they're in a position where they have to do that or else it's going to be bad. And everybody's feeling that pressure a little bit. But LeBron

has been living in this exact sort of environment since he was 13 years old. That's fair. That part is fair. I just was confused about the... Isaac, am I the only person here that's confused by the... You are not alone. You have to be uncomfortable to get comfortable.

What does this even mean? I don't know. But I do like every year you can almost set your watch by it, although it came a little later in the calendar this year, where LeBron looks around and goes, oh shit, I got to kick these guys in the ass. And I guess that's what this is. So I'm cool with that.

But you're fucking here on this, yeah? I'm in here on this. Yeah, the whole thing about you've got to be comfortable, being uncomfortable. It's the same as like if you set up a high wire between two buildings, every time you walk across that high wire, you're going to be uncomfortable. but after you've done it a hundred times,

you're used to that feeling. You know what I'm saying? And that's how LeBron plays basketball. He knows what it's like to fail in the playoffs and have everybody just rip you to shred. He's comfortable in that uncomfortable situation. The younger guys,

they aren't yet. I need for y'all guys to catch up Mr. Isaac and Mr. John. How dare you? I need you as my LeBron translator. That's why we have you on the program. As a quick addendum to this one, do you think they make the playoffs? Yes.

that's another in here. That's another in here. Okay. This is a situation where it's like I can't, I can't say that LeBron won't make the playoffs until I've seen LeBron not make the playoff. Same with my beloved Spurs. They're going to make a playoff every year in my head

until I see them not do it. You know, they've earned the benefit of the doubt. I think we have to give that same courtesy to LeBron, perhaps the greatest basketball player of all time. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm in here on that one too, because the Lakers, as of right now, three games back of the final two spots.

The spurs and the clippers are tied for that final spot. It's hard for me to imagine the playoffs without LeBron. That's always been my position. Like until he doesn't do it, I'm going to assume that he will because he's LeBron. All right, next one for you. Anthony Davis, he sits versus the Lakers.

He only plays 20 minutes versus the Pacers, play 16 minutes versus OKC before the All-Star break, and then he leaves early to go with Rich Paul to Charlotte. Tell me your position on this one. The Pelicans should sit Anthony Davis for the rest of the year. In here. That's an in here. They should, right? Yeah.

Why would they not? You sit him, you trade him. We get it. Everybody understands what's happening. Let's not risk anything. Doesn't make any sense. We know he's not sticking around. Don't drive the car if you're going to sell it in three weeks.

You're putting miles on the car. Just clean it up and get it ready. Exactly. You got to get it detailed. You got to get it washed. Put it in the garage. Make sure nobody dings it up in the parking garage. How does it behoove either Anthony Davis,

or the pelicans for him to play. One, they want to bottom out and, you know, move him along to whichever team and get the most possible picks. And two, if he gets hurt, both sides are screwed. Yeah, exactly. I understand everybody does not like what's happening. Sure, it's a sucky situation. We just went through the same thing with Kauai and San Antonio.

But like once you reach a certain point when you know your guy is leaving, all right, cool. Now we have to act with that in our heads. We know this bad thing is going to happen. how do we come out of it in the best way possible? That's all that we need to do right here. Mutually beneficial, it makes sense to me, which brings me to the next one, which is kind of similar.

And we don't do much college basketball on this show because it's an NBA show. However, he's going to be in the NBA very soon, but Zion Williamson goes and sprains his knee against UNC. He blows out his shoe, which is incredible. And there's two schools of thought here. There's the Charles Barkley School where Charles Barkley does his Charles Barkley, old man, bed and says,

you know, we're basketball players, we should play. But Boogie, being Boogie, he goes, hey, knowing what I know now, college is bullshit. So, weighing on this one, Zion should sit out the rest of the season. That's another in here. That's, of course, the exactly correct thing to do. This person worth millions and millions of dollars should go ahead and have a seat until it's time to collect your millions and millions of dollars.

Yes. Why would you risk that? Why would you ever risk that? I mean, I get the appeal of playing for Duke and playing for a national title, but he's out of here in one year and you've got your whole career ahead of you and like, look, college is important for normal humans. NBA players are not normal humans in any respect. All right. Like he's going to be a multimillionaire and has what could be, what forecast to be, an incredible career ahead of him. So like risking that for a couple of games of glory for Coach K,

when you're leaving him behind anyway, that doesn't make any sense to me. No, it doesn't make any sense at all. like this is a business now. This is not just you going to play with your friends, and it's late in the afternoon, and you're the 10th person on the team, and you want to leave, but you stick around so that everybody else can still play five on five. This isn't that situation.

This is not you with your loser friends. This is a person who is a corporation soon enough, risking everything for no real reason at all. He could play or not play. Let's say he plays, and he's healthy the rest of the season, whatever. He's the number one.

draft pick. If he sits down and he never touches another basketball again, and then he goes to the camps and they invite you a place. He could walk in there and fucking punt the ball into the stands every time. He's going to be the number one draft pick no matter what. What would you do? You've got

three beautiful boys who are probably all going to be in the NBA. I'm forecasting it. What would you do if one of them came to you and said, Dad, I blew out my shoe, I sprained my knee against UNC, but Coach Kay wants me to play and I want to play.

Uh-huh. One of your kids is going to be the number one pick. You're giving the same advice even though he still really wants to play. Yeah, this is what you do. One of my sons comes to me and he tells me what you're telling me. And I put my arm around him because we're both about six three. Let's say he's a guard. You're at least that.

I'm at least that. Like if I'm slouching, I put my arm around my six three son and I start talking into his ear about how much I love him and how much I care about him. and we're just sort of like walking through the house. We're going into his room. I got my arm around him and then right at the last second, I just fucking shove him in his room, and then I shut the door and I lock the door,

and I just keep him in there until we get to the draft. That's what I'm going to do. That's it. You're here until summer. That's good parenting. I mean, I know Simmons's bid his parent corner, but I think we got a rival here on heat check. All this time we're challenging the boss.

All right, next one for you. Katie and Kyrie, seen talking at All-Star weekend, over her. Depends on how he's a pruder this thing. but overheard possibly saying the words, two max slots. Some people thought that he might have said two straight, or some such as in like,

hey, you know, KD is going for two straight all-star game MVPs. But we think it was two max slots. So my question for you, KD and Kyrie should team up in NYC and save the Knicks. Okay, let me answer this two ways. First, I do think that they should do that. I think that's the most interesting storyline.

And for me, when I watch basketball, the only reason that I really watch it is for the, these interesting storylines. I think that would be the most fun possible situation. It's for Kyrie and Kevin to go to New York City and we get that whole adventure. Because it's either going to be really, really good or a total disaster. Either way, we're going to get some good fodder for Twitter. You know what I'm saying? Oh, absolutely. I think that. This is tough for me. It's kind of an in here and an out of here for me. It's an out of here as a Philadelphia because I always want bad things for New York. But as a ringer content for

producer, somebody who has got to write about the NBA, talk about it on heat check. This sounds amazing. I want that. I want Katie and Kyrie in New York in front of the New York media, microphones, cameras, and Kyrie's popping off, and maybe now Katie is angry. And who knows if it goes really good, it could be interesting. And if it goes bad, it would be fascinating. And they're playing for James Dolan. I want that. Yeah, that would be incredible. And it would be so much fun to watch. I think that's one of, like, three cities, Kevin Durant could go to, if he were interested in rehabilitating his image in the NBA, and like you want to be a beloved figure, I think if you go to New York and you win a title there, and you do it by beating

Golden State, that's cool for a lot of different reasons. Number one, you brought a title to New York. Number two, you sort of proved to everybody that you were the best player on the Warriors, which when you watch the Warriors play, it's like you understand that he's the best on the court, but you still just like Steph Curry more. Yeah. I think that that bothers him a little bit. I think it bothered him a great, great deal when they were in the All-Star game. And the highlight of the game was Steph bouncing in Alleyoop over his head to Yonnas.

Like that, it seems to me like that would probably bug him. Bug him a lot. It doesn't sound like KB. I think he should go with that. I really like Kevin Durant. I would really like to see him win a title, and I would like to see him become a beloved figure in the NBA. I think that that's what we need the most.

The second part that I was going to mention is I don't think that Kyrie said to Max slot. You don't think you don't. If you don't think he does not to me seem like the type of person who talks like that is way too philosophical of a person to bring up contracts when talking to another human. You know, I don't think that that's what happened. I like to imagine that it did happen, but it's interesting that you mentioned that he talks a lot because that was my next question for you.

Kyrie talks a lot. And he said he was staying in Boston. and then he said, ask him July 1, and then he said he doesn't know anybody's shit. And then he got mad about the whole two max slot thing because reporters asked him about it after the All-Star game. And he said, it's a video of me and one of my best friends

talking. And then it turns out to be a dissection of free agency meeting. And then I'm asked questions about that. That's what disconnects me from all this shit. He got very indignant about it. Every time Kyrie talks, it makes me smile. It does not make boss man Bill Simmons smile. It drives him insane.

my question for you is where are you on Kyrie talking constantly and making everybody but Boston excited about him talking it's the best thing in the world I'm with you on that like I want to see as much chaos as possible

for every team that's not the spurs everybody else should be going through it I love Kyrie getting out there and just talking I know he bothers people a lot I know he's got this sort of I don't think it's smugness, but there's an intellectual superiority thing going on where he believes, no matter where he is, he is the smartest, most nuanced, most interesting person to walk into whatever room he walks into. I really like that about Kyrie. I think that's what makes him the player who's not afraid to go ISO in game seven to win the championship.

You need that in your head. I love that about Kyrie. I would like for Kyrie to talk as much as possible. and I would like for him to contradict himself as much as possible. I think it's fantastic. I think he's playing games with every person, John.

I do think he's smarter than all of us. This is why I have you on the show because this is such an in here for me. I love, like, I put my feet up and I look at Slack. Invariably in Slack, like when you say that he's the most intellectual person in any given room, I agree with you.

He's incredibly smart, but what drives a lot of the people at the ringer crazy is like to flat earth truth or stuff. and so anytime he opens his mouth about anything, I just immediately run to our slack because people get very angry about it. And I love it. I just want to see it. Like, I just want to put the quarter in with him

and just let him go. Yeah. You and I are in agreement on this point. Karee is wildly interesting to me. When he plays basketball and also when he's talking. Wildly interesting, wildly entertaining. To me, it's the same as when he's dribbling. You can't trap Karee on the court.

He's too fast. He's too quick. He's too smart. It's the same thing when you're trying to talk to him. He will look you dead in your eyes and not answer the question you just ask them. But you feel like he did until 30 seconds later. He's like, wait, he didn't say a fucking thing about what I asked. And he started talking about the tides and the moon and shit.

And I just assumed he knew it. You know what I love him. I hope he does stay in Boston, but probably not for the reasons that Boston would want him to stay. All right. Here's a question for you about a guy who may or may not be on the move. Kauai. He's got the raptors near the top of the East all season. He's playing great. You've seen him up close. You know him well. He looks great in Toronto. But my question is, in terms of Max Slots, Isaac's Clippers. I threw this on here specifically for our guy, Isaac. So I'm going to frame it this way for you. In here or out of here on, Kauai should bolt and leave Toronto for Isaac's Clippers. Out of here, for sure. Stay in Toronto. Keep Kauai in Toronto. I think for number one, because he's a great fit there.

And they're a legitimately scary team now. Because all you need when you have Kauai Leonard on your team is you just need to keep it close through like midway of the fourth quarter and then he is 100% capable of taking over a game after that. He can do that. I

watched him do it for years in San Antonio a couple of years anyway. Like he won that title for us. I watched him try to will us through the playoffs in whatever year was at, 15 maybe. He can do that. You need a player like that in Toronto, I think. He makes

them a real scary team. He should not leave out of that. He can't do that with the clippers. It's a good spot for him. It's almost a perfect spot for him in that like he's both relevant and like sort of out of sight, right? He's in Toronto. Like apologies to all of Canada for saying you're out of sight if you play in Canada.

But still, I mean, it is Toronto, right? And like he doesn't get a ton of media pressure by playing in Toronto. It's a good fit for him. The team is good. They're relevant. I specifically asked this question in this way because I knew how you would answer and I knew how I would answer and now Isaac is just glaring

and shaking his head at me. This is extremely upsetting to me. I trusted you guys. I really thought of you guys as really close colleagues of mine and this betrayal, I mean, I feel like I'm being stabbed in the back like the eyes of March, you know?

Kauai Leonard is a Southern Californian. He's from Riverside, right? You want to bring him home? I want to bring him home. You know what's the thing about Toronto is that it's really cold. It's cold. It's extremely cold.

You know what's not cold? Los Angeles. But you know what is cold? You know what is cold? Kauai Leonard is cold. It fits too perfect. I just started, I started watching the Game of Thrones like a few. Oh, nice.

Actually, a couple months ago to like get ready for this last season. And he's like the guy who's in charge of all of the winter zombies. It wouldn't make sense for that guy to live in Los Angeles. It wouldn't be scary there. It wouldn't be scary in short. He just looked weird. No. No.

he would bring... But in the ice and snow, it makes perfect sense. Listen, as someone nicknamed ice, let me speak on this with authority, he would bring the ice with him. He would bring the cold with him. He would make the clip as an icy franchise. I'm gonna rule in favor of Shay on this one.

All right, let's keep it moving. Last two for you. I had to ask you these last two because they're just so absurd and you're perfect for this. So did you see Jimmy Butler did an interview for something called Interview Magazine,

and the interview was conducted by his guy, Marky Mark Wahlberg. Did you see this? Of course, I saw it. How did you not see that? Okay, so for those who did not see it, there's a magazine unbeknownst to me called Interview Magazine, wonderful.

Marky Mark interviewed Jimmy Butler. In the interview, there are photos of Jimmy Butler like pulling up his sweater to show off his abs and he's in one photo like touching his nipple and making an ooh face. It's all very strange.

But the exchange that he had with one where Walberg goes, hey, what was the name of the movie you did? Was it office party? And Butler goes, office Christmas party. It was the one I thought you were going to be in. And then when I showed up, you weren't there. And Walberg goes on to say, hey, I told you I was going to do a movie. I didn't say it was going to be that one. So Jimmy Butler showed up to this movie and was looking around for Marky

Mark's trailer. And they're like, yeah, he's not in this. So that's how Jimmy Butler showed up in office Christmas party. But my question for you is these two, like, what do you make, are you in or out on their friendship? Because I have no idea how they became friends. or how it's become lasting or how they ended up doing an interview for interview magazine or how Jimmy Buller ended up in a movie because he thought Marky Mark was going to be in it. The way that they ended up friends is they realized that nobody else in America wanted to be their friends except for one other person. Marky Mark was going through his phone.

He was talking to his agents and he was like, hey, who can I hang out with? And they were like, we have asked every person in every state. And they all said, no, there's only one person. and left Jimmy Butler. And he was like, okay, and then the same thing was happening with Jimmy Butler. Nobody wanted to hang out with those two guys, except for those two guys. So they're just sort of stuck together. That's the story that I heard.

That's my sources. I'm kind of in here for it, though. Like, it's so bizarre. It makes sense that they would hang out together, but that's an out of here for me. That's an out of here. Because it involves Mark Warburg and Jimmy Butler, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know what, but that's why it's such an in here for me. It would otherwise be so out of here that it's in.

It's so wrong. It's right. See, that's for me. It's still in here that it's got to be out of here. All right. Last one for you, and I already know the answer, but I'm going to do it anyway. So our friends at the Rights to Ricky Sanchez podcast, Spike and Mike, who I love dearly, they had previously banned one Kevin O'Connor for saying among other things last year that

Al Horford was more deserving to start in the All-Star game than Joelle and Bede. And he has since been banned. Okay. The most absurd thing, among the many absurd. things that KOC, who I love dearly, has said that was at the top of the list. So he got banned by the Wrights to Ricky Sanchez podcast. In the last podcast, or the second to last podcast, they have since unbanned him because KOC had done and said nice things about the rights to Rake Sanchez on various Ringer properties. My question for you is, are you in or out on them

unbanned KOC? I'm out. Of course I'm out. Every place everywhere should ban Kevin O'Connor, the snake, the fart snake. I don't understand how that happens. See, this is him being as sneaky as possible. He finds out that somebody might not like him. He starts trying to, like, you know, battle up next one, be their friend. He tried to do the same thing with me,

but I was not falling for it. I will never fall for it. Kevin O'Connor are listening to this right now. I want you to know I will never fall for it. You will always be on the wrong side of the river, sir. Is he still banned on villains? He's banned on villains. He's banned.

and anything that I am involved with Kevin O'Connor is banned. I actually, in the basketball book that I wrote, I thanked him in the back. I don't think he even realized it was a sarcastic thing. I want to make sure that that's clear right now. That was a preemptive ban, a sarcastic ban. He might be the only person, I think, in the movie book, just to prove a point. I like this strategy for you. I think it's going to work out well for everybody.

KOC, despite the fact that you've been banned from all Shea Serrana properties, You're still Michael Mone and Heechek and the NBA show. We love you here. Go out and get the new book, movies and other things. Go out, pre-order it. Read Shea Serrano. Listen to Shea Serrano. He's the best.

Shea. Thank you for doing this. All right, boy. That was Shea Serrano before we bring in Dan Devine. Want to do the NBA watch in the night. We got the 76ers at the Pelicans on NBA TV tonight. Isaac, resident Heech historian. Have we ever talked about the Sixers before in the show?

I don't think so ever in the history. Never talked about them in the history of the show. but they're going to be playing the Pelicans who, they just beat the Lakers, as we mentioned with Shea Serrano, without Anthony Davis. And who knows if AD is going to play in this game or for how long, by the time you listen to this podcast, you might know the answer to that. But M. Bid is out with knee soreness, which is weird because he played in the All-Star game,

and then all of a sudden they're like, oh, he can't play. Convenient timing, you know. He's hurt. They got to shut him down. Just got sore right after the All-Star game. Got sore after the All-Star game. I would have liked to see those two go out. M. B.

always plays really well against AD, and those two have had some. some fun games against each other. But, you know, Drew is out there. Drew Holiday will be playing. We'll see whether or not he can marshal. Former Sixers, All-Star. Former Sixers, All-Star, Drew Holiday.

See if he can marshal the Pelicans to another win without his guy AD or if the 76ers will go back at it. But it's 76ers at the Pelicans on NBA TV, followed by the Mavs at your Clippers. Yeah, the Mavs are in town. A lot of conflicted feelings for me, but obviously I will be rooting for the Clippers. Are you going out to dinner with Luca?

I imagine he would just call you and Jason Gallagher and be like, what are we doing? I figure he's staying in your guest house. That would be a dream if I had a guest house, first of all. He'll stay over with you. If Luca, don't just want it to stay with me, yeah. I just imagine that you guys would be hanging out. So check out Mavs and Clippers after Sixers and Pelicans on NBA TV.

And remember, gang, if you want to watch every NBA game, subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com from your preferred video provider. And now, before we bring in Dan Devine, it's got a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode of Heat Check is brought to you by SimplySafe. Here's something interesting. Studies show that security systems deter burglars. It's a fact, but there's still a burglary every eight seconds in America. How?

Well, burglars don't give up just because some houses have security systems. They find a house that isn't protected, which is why securing your home is truly a necessity. So let me recommend this brilliant security. system built by my friends at SimpliSafe. At SimplySafe, they believe fear has no place and a place like home. So they made SimpliSafe ridiculously smart. Its sensors will protect every point of access to your home, doors, windows, garage, you name it, they'll protect it if a burglar even tries to break in and an ear-shattering siren will let them know that the police are already on the way. Best of all, SimpliSaf's 24-7 monitoring is just 1499 a month and they'll never lock

you into a long-term contract. More than 3 million people already know it feels good. to fear less with SimplySafe. So go to the only home security I trust, SimplySafe. By going to SimplySafeNBA.com today. That's SimplySafeNBA.com for the home security I trust. Simply safe NBA.com. Today's heat check is also brought to you by Hulu. Hulu's paying some of the league's best players, a lot of money to do some pretty

crazy stuff. Joel changed his nickname from the process, apparently, to Joel. Hulu has live sports that's in quotation marks MBEed. Damien Liller got. a tattoo that says Hulu has live sports. Clearly, they really want you to know that Hulu has live sports. Hulu Plus Live TV

offers 60 plus live on-demand channels, tons of shows and movies and exclusive originals. So get rid of cable and switch to Hulu Plus Live TV for only $45 a month. Watch your favorite teams in the biggest games all season with no cable required. Watch on the go and all your favorite

devices. Restrictions apply. Learn more at Hulu.com. And now it's bringing Devine. All right, joining me on the other line from New York, from the New York HQ, Ringer HQ. Amazon left New York. The ringer's not going anywhere in New York. It's staff writer, Dan Devine. Gons, thank you so much for having me back on the show. It is my treat to get to do it with you. It's not the low post. It's not. I mean, it's, I mean, heat check. We're very proud of heat check, but I'm no Zach Lowe, but I'm glad you could make some time for us. I managed to

fit it into my schedule, yes. It's wonderful. All right, so you wrote a couple of different things that I wanted to get into with you. We'll get to your five most interesting MVP candidates in a second. But I just can't stop focusing on the Pelicans because they're such a wonderful shit show. They went out. I was talking to show you about this earlier in the program. They went out somehow without Anthony Davis. And they beat the Lakers because, sure.

But Del Demps gets fired. You wrote a piece, Del Demps gone, but the Pelicans tumult far from over. What do you make of that circus? I think the fact that they decided to move on from Demps, there was never any question that that was going to happen, right? That kind of seemed like no matter how the AD situation shook out, he was going to take the fall for the way the Pelicans have underperformed for most of the AD tenure, and a lot of that based on moves that he had made that did not pan out the way they, you know, tried to sign those quote-unquote young veteran players and bring in that talent to raise up alongside AD,

and then never really got them anywhere of note in the Western Conference picture. The fact that it happened right after the trade deadline right before the all- Star break when you really wouldn't want to be talking about dirty laundry like that over the course of the break. I found that really interesting. It sort of suggested that Gail Benson, the owner of the team, since taking over for her late husband, Tom Benson last year, seemed like she was like really wanted to take the bull by the horns heading into this situation, say we're going to get a new interim guy in place. We're going to chart a new course. Whatever has been going on where this team was sort of on the back burner in our portfolio over the last few years, we're kind of making a break from

that and leaning into a new direction. Where that direction is, where that direction is, leads, it's, you know, there's still a lot to sort of figure out. But I think the fact that they made this move now instead of having made it before the deadline when somebody else might have had a different deal-making strategy or waiting until the end of the season, then cleaning house when it was a quieter time. I think that was pretty interesting to try to figure out what that means moving forward. Yeah, the timing was super curious. I wonder what would have happened do you think, like if some really good deal had come along and he took it to management? And they're like, sure, Doug, I hadn't do the deal. Like, does he still get fired afterwards?

I mean, like, what were they thinking in terms of, like, just letting him go ahead and try to, like, kick around offers? I mean, it's just such a strange organization. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I think it maybe indicates that there was, you know, that in tandem with that sort of idea that this was maybe trolling as a negotiating tactic, like that there was never actually going, going to be something meaningful coming in terms of making a deal with the Lakers. Maybe it suggests that they were just never going to do something before the deadline anyway,

because you didn't want your lame duck GM making the move. You didn't want whoever was going to come in next to have to deal with the fallout of whatever was done before that person arrived. And also, I mean, that maybe the idea that you were not going to get the best deal, if you didn't feel confident you were going to get the best deal or the best offer, with Del Demp's being the one sort of at the controls of the negotiation. So maybe it was just this was all sort of a much ado about very little that was going to happen. And then the last sort of straw being the debacle before the All-Star

with AD and Rich Paul leaving early from the game. And then, which is, you know, we've been over a number of times. But I think what comes next for New Orleans in terms of what the remainder of this season looks like, how big a part of it Anthony Davis winds up being. Yeah. And then where the sort of the opening of the bids comes after the lottery and before the draft and yada, yada, yada. I think it puts New Orleans in a really fascinating position moving forward.

And I don't think anyone really has a great sense of which way ownership is going to steer that conversation. Before we get into moving forward, I just want to, like, one more Demp's thing, because poor Dell, like, you know, he was, he's been bad for a while, bad enough that David Stern knocked him for the original Chris Paul trade and then came out of the woodwork in that SI piece and cracked him again and said how bad he was. But in like the pantheon of bad NBA GMs, where does Dell Demp's fit? Are we talking like Ernie Grunfeld-Washington era level bad or worse? I would say, you have to say worse if only because he didn't get the. chance to let it run as long as Ernie has in defiance of God's will and everything else. And Justin Varyer has had offered some nuance on that and some more on the ground insight in

terms of the way things had worked in New Orleans and the way that Demp's was able to sort of maneuver behind the scenes, some of the positives of the tenure and so on. But that's the sort of template to think about. It's not David Kahn setting an entire franchise on fire for a half a decade. It's not Isaiah Thomas salting the earth behind him. New York. It's not Billy King, which may be at the behest of ownership, but Billy King strafing and the situation in Brooklyn for another half decade after his exit. But Grunfeld is maybe the way to think about it. Like, quietly, just things didn't work out and you've maybe wasted or squandered,

the first seven years of a generational talent and now put the franchise back on the clock right at ground zero. So it's definitely a rough hang. And it'll be really interesting to see sort of where when Del Demp's pops back up, where he pops up, and in what role he pops back up. They always need people in China. Europe is an option. You know, like maybe you could get a job in the G League. Yeah, Ernie is sort of singular. I love to, poor Ernie, he gets a lot of heat on heat check.

So we'll put him off to the side here for a second. I think that there's a case to be made for Del Dems being among the worst contemporary general managers because of exactly what you said. Like he got Anthony Davis and then squandered it. I mean, they didn't do anything with Anthony Davis, one of the transatlory. transcend players of his generation. And, you know, he went and paired him with Drew Holiday, which I thought at the time was a good trade for both teams.

And still, they couldn't get anything done. And you think, like, about this league and the history of the league and how the pairing of point guard with Big Man is a recipe for success. And they had two of the best in the league and couldn't do anything with it. And it's just, it's a real shame for the pelicans in New Orleans because now you wonder, like, what's the future of that franchise? You're going to have to offload AD. And you said, like, you know, moving forward, what do you even do with him this year?

Do you sit him? They didn't play him against the Lakers. When they do play him, they haven't played him the same amount of minutes. Personally, I think it behooves them not to play him. It's better for him. It's better for them. You don't want to risk him getting hurt because then all of a sudden, who knows what you get back in return? I completely agree.

And it's obviously a pretty complicated and fraught conversation because then you're talking about what is the value of Anthony Davis as somebody that needs to be on the court to like the league. And it's partners. And is it tanking in a different sort of way? than the ways we've agreed to accept and, you know, to say like, ah, it's fine. I guess maybe there's one way to look at it when it's like, we're going to give all the minutes we can handle to, you know, Kevin Knox and Frank Milakina when he's healthy.

And another one to say, like, we got to take a really long look at Kenrick Williams. Now, who, by the way, I really like, and I think it's been, you know, the way the Pelicans have played when AD is not available. And, you know, that Laker game you mentioned is a great example of it. They've played pretty fantastic, or at least interesting and hard and competitive basketball without him in this stretch. I want to pause you for a second, though, because you're also a little suspect in terms of whether or not we can trust you on these player avals, because earlier, I'm going to blow up

your spot about something you put in Slack earlier in the air. Who did you say you like Mitchell Robinson better than? Like, you like Capella or somebody crazy? What was it? Okay. All right. So here's the take. Pull back to curtain and let everybody know what you said, because I thought my computer was

going to spontaneously combust when I saw this. All right. I'm not saying that Mitchell Robinson is better than DeAndre Aiton. Oh, that's what it was. It was DeAndre Aiton. This is amazing. I'm not saying definitively that it is true. I love this take.

Go on NBA desktop. Jason Concepcion, if you're listening, I got somebody for you. I think that there is an argument to be made that the type of player Mitchell Robinson is, pick and roll, dive, big man, lob targets, shot blocker, rim protector, is more. valuable if you're trying to build a championship caliber team than DeAndre Aiton being a back to the basket or face-ups 20-point a night score who rebounds a lot but maybe is a little bit iffy around the rim. That was earlier in the season. DeAndre Aden has taken steps since the start of the season defensively. He's better now than he was when he started. I still might kind of believe

what I said that I'd rather have a player like Mitchell Robinson if I'm building out the rest of a championship caliber team. But that doesn't mean. I love this. I love this take. It's the hottest of Isaac is making a sour milk face right now. It's really great. I think it's because he hears me trying to weasel out of it. He's not enjoying the way I'm trying to steer into the curve. He does. He's on heat check and he's doing great with it,

which actually brings me to something I wanted to ask you about. So you are a New Yorker. You have watched and covered the Knicks for a long time. We're talking about the Pelicans. And I was sitting here thinking, like, given their personnel and their weird ownership situations and like, here are the Pelicans about to trade off Anthony Davis and get as much as they possibly can

for him, that they've got that unknown front office situation. They've got that turbulent ownership group that's, you know, crossed with the saints and like who's running the place and does Gail know what she's doing in the whole bit? And then you've got James Dolan, who I would think we would all by now reach the point where we go, we're not sure that he knows what he's doing. And they've got the two max slots, but they're also still the next and who the hell knows. What situation would you rather have right now? Would you rather, if you could pick an organization with their assets and their

situation and their ownership group, would you rather be? the PELS or the NICS right now. Given the state of the team, like the balance sheet and the assets and whatever, I guess I'd say right now the NICS because there is a more reasonable path to getting to a high ceiling. And I mean, it requires tampering. It requires moving outside the bounds of the NBA law. But there is now a straight shot to two max players and whatever you can generate out of

the lottery, whether that's an asset to trade for a star like AD or, you know, Zion Williamson, and R.J. Barrett, a cam Reddish, a whoever to be the sort of the infusion of youth and talent alongside the stars that you put there. I am, I think it's fair to say, I'm pretty bearish on the Knicks actually making this all work. You are. I have a lot of anxiety and reservation about whether or not clearing out two max spots and saying, we're going to make it all happen under James Dolan's roof is actually going to work. I'm very skeptical. about that. But I think it at least is a clear sort of A to B path to doing something more clear than, okay, so we trade A D and we flip them for this and then we pair that with Drew and then we

figure out what else we can do on the back end of the roster and then all of a sudden we've got a winner. The Knicks might be more likely to be awful next season than the Pelicans with whatever they get, but they also might be more likely to be really good than the Pelicans with whatever they get. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think there's probably more moving parts for the Pelicans. and you do have a clearer path with the Nix. However, and this is a big, however, they're still the Nix. So I go, ah, you know, like, for however many years, how long has it been now where Nix fans are like,

now this is the year that the free agent savior comes in, and it's going to be LeBron. And before LeBron, it was, you know, name any X star. There's always been this is the year that free agent X and Y come and save the Nix. And I just wonder, I wonder if it's ever going to happen. Did you, what did you make of the All-Star Games of Pre-Stars? Reuter, K.D. Exchange. Did you break that down? Do you believe that they were saying two max slots? I opted out of that particular breakdown, much like a free agent looking to cash in on the

market. I opted out of that one. I think it's much more likely that that is Kyrie screwing around and playing with people's heads because he seems to enjoy that in a way that then he gets mad about it. And I don't really understand the ecosystem of that behavioral approach. But I think it's much more likely that's them screwing with people to have a modicum of fun at this point than it was like, this is the, you know, the document that leads us to this is all happening. That said, if come July 1st, they both agree in the moment after free agency opens, then, I mean, I have no problem starting a blog post with, we knew it, we knew it since mid-February. But I think it's unlikely that that was, I think that was more for the benefit of making,

tweaking people than for, you know, than some kind of like clandestine document that uncovered the whole plan. As a Philadelphian who respects his native tribal instincts, I don't want good things for New York. I don't want those two players to team up together. However, as everybody here who listens to Heech knows, my allegiance to Philadelphia takes a backseat to all things content driven. And in that respect, I very much want those two to team up and play under James Dolan's roof and be in New York and have the New York media at their doorstep every day and like interact. all the time. I want that very much. I would love to see how that plays out. What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? I need it. I need it in my life. All right, let's do your five most interesting MVP candidates. You wrote a piece about this. We'll do them in no particular order.

Top of the list is Harden, right? Make the case for Hardin. This is an easy one. All right. So it's that this is the, I haven't checked the numbers this morning, but I believe the seventh or eighth highest scoring season in NBA history, which is pretty good. Yeah, you'd say. You like to start there while also averaging around eight assists a game. He's creating himself about half of Houston's points on a given night, and they score a lot of them. So that is a pretty compelling sort of statistical start.

There is the narrative component of like, not just the 30-point streak, but like the way he's turned that sort of sidestep step back into a signature move on a level that, you know, nobody really has had a move, like another move like that this season. he's kind of bent the narrative of he's carrying this team to his will and in a way that maybe will elevate his own candidacy. I think that's sort of interesting. The fact that this is like a team that falls apart offensively when he's not there and he is the one that lifts them into the middle of the pack in the Western Conference playoff picture, all that helps him. There's some advanced stats stuff for him too, but I think it's really like it builds similarly to Westbrook's candidacy a couple of years ago, which is like you look at the injury to Capella,

the injury to Paul, what they haven't had around him. And to this point, it is without this guy, they are nowhere. And with him, they are fighting for home court advantage in the West while he's producing at a historic pace. I think that's the number one case. It's really incredible what he's done this season and how he has lifted them because they got off to such a slow start. And they were fighting just to climb back into the playoffs.

And there was a moment there in the first couple of months where we were looking around going, man, I wonder, you know, in the mellow era and then even post-mellow era, where we were looking around wondering whether or not the rockets were going to be able to flip the switch. And certainly he did. And that elevated them. And when Chris Paul was out, he carried them by himself. And now they're starting to look like the rockets again. And they're only, what, two games behind the Blazers for that final home court playoff spot. So, yeah, I think it's probably right now Hardin,

but if there's going to be a challenge, most people think it would be Janus. And Janus has been incredible this year at both ends of the floor where, like, Hardin is absolutely obviously unstoppable offensively. Janus, with the exception of that shot that's still suspect, has been lights out at both ends of the floor and has done, I think people had hopes for the bucks this year,

but for him to be able to, when we talk about like Hardin, elevating the rockets, he's made, and yes, I know the Eastern Conference, isn't as good. He's made the buck's the best team in the Eastern Conference, which is pretty incredible. And not only that, I mean, there is a really good argument that even considering the Warriors, this is the best team in the NBA. This is, you know, the number one defense in the NBA, the best net rating in the NBA, by a considerable margin, best record in the NBA. And so there's- I want to stop you, by a considerable margin on the net rating, like much better than the Golden

State Warriors, the Celtics, the Nuggets. I mean, the Pacers are still in. there somehow. It's incredible to me. But the Bucks, like, I think they have way overperformed our expectations. Totally. I mean, we looked at them at the start of the season and figured, you know, this was, you introduce a system that will maximize Janice's effectiveness offensively and try to minimize, you know, some of the variants that they see defensively, force harder shots, force, you know, more contested looks, et cetera, take advantage of all that length in a way that was not helter-skelter in the way that Jason Kiddera sort of deployed it. And it's been beyond anybody's wildest dreams really.

And so I think that the thing with Janus is you have some sort of tried and true MVP arguments, which is best player on the best team, right? You have statistical kind of craziness, which is he's producing at a level that's, you know, in terms of points, rebounds, assists, stuff like that. He's the first player to average 27, 12, and 6. He'd be the first player since Oscar Robertson did it 57 years ago. So there's a historic component to it. There's the way he's producing it, which is like all at the rim in the way that young

Shaq and young LeBron did it. So there's a stylistic component to it, which is all, you know, all the Euro steps and the, you know, two dribbles to the basket. There's the production capacity to it. There's the best player on the best team aspect of it. It becomes harder and harder to build really good cases against him. I think his strongest case at this point might be that nobody else has a case that's significantly better than his.

Because even Hardens, you can say, yeah, he's been, you know, vital. absolutely vital to everything that they do in Houston. Janice has been that and then some in Milwaukee as well, and his team's way better. So the armor that he's built in his case, it's not necessarily as much about he's historic on the level that Hardin has been. It's that there's really no cracks in it. Yeah, I think like, and yet everybody I talked to, like, reporter-wise and people on teams around the league, I'm not sure how close people expect this to be. Like, it still feels like it's going to be hardened.

Like, if you had to vote right now, who would you vote for? If I had a vote right now, I probably would vote Janus. You would. Because I think that the unison, the combination of his own individual production, the team's production, the team's success, the way that he has elevated them and elevated his own game on both ends of the floor, I think it sort of aggregates into what's your best reason not to give it to that guy. And if it's because James Hardin is scoring a ton, which is, I mean, not to sneeze at that. Obviously, it's the most important thing in the game is being able to score points. but when we talk about the sort of historic nature of the scoring, I was really surprised when I went back and did the research on it a little bit.

Of the players, the other players who have posted higher individual scoring averages than Hardin is doing this season, only one of them wound up winning MVP. It was Wilt in 1959, 1960. Every other higher averaging player wound up finishing behind a player who had better team success, better overall numbers in terms of team collective production. So I wonder if Hardin might be the next in that line of young Michael Jordan or the wilt teams that followed behind Russell or Elgin Baylor guys like that who wound up bumped down the voting ballot a little bit by other players whose teams had more collective success. Yeah, interesting. I think it's still hardened for me, but you make a really compelling case that it should be closer than I think maybe other people anticipated to be.

Janice is having a killer season. I don't think you can go wrong with either of those guys. You have after those two, they're one and one A in this conversation. And then there's everybody else. And for me, everybody else begins with Paul George, who's just murdering it in OKC. And bless the thunder's heart for convincing him to stay because without him, I wonder what the thunder would be. They certainly wouldn't be having the success that they've had this season because he's just

been better by, this might be the best Paul George we've seen. It's really incredible. I completely agree. I've written that a couple of times this season that there was, and I'll put this on myself. I think other people maybe have been more optimistic about what Paul George could be or how he could bounce back from the leg injury a few years ago or what his ultimate ceiling might be. I never thought Paul George could be this good, as good as he has been for 60 games. And he just continues to show it night in and night out on both ends of the floor, arguably a

favorite for defensive player of the year while also averaging around 29 a game shooting the lights out like he's a splash brother at this point on a crazy volume of three-point shots too. there aren't really a whole lot of areas of his game that you can poke holes in and doing that while helping elevate the thunder to a level that they haven't really been at collectively since KD left. And so I think that there are arguments to be made for other guys, certainly. But when Chris Ryan, when our colleague wrote that he kind of feels like Paul George might be the best player in the NBA this season in our top 25-ish players of the first 60

games, like it's really hard to argue against it. He absolutely deserves to be in that upper tier. maybe though, as you know, maybe he's the top of the everybody else tier, but he keeps doing this and they keep winning. They get up, you know, well above 50 wins and they become, they sort of cement themselves as the number one threat to the Warriors

in the Western Conference. I think it's going to be hard to keep him much lower than second or third. I want to pause on that for a second because that's interesting. Who is the biggest threat in the Western Conference to the Warriors? Because the way Paul George has been playing

in the way that the Thunder are playing as a result. Like you mentioned his three-point shooting. I was also skeptical that he would be able to keep up the volume and be one of their best three-point shoot. Last year, he was their most prolific three-point shooter because necessity, right? I mean, you looked around. It was like him and Mello and, like, who else is going to take threes? This year, he's just good at it and he's continued it.

And on top of that, he's still a killer defensively. There are four games behind the Warriors in the Western Conference. I think they might pose the biggest challenge in the Western Conference. Yeah, I think in a short series, or in a short series, I would be more interested in how they match up with Golden State than anybody else. I just don't think the Rockets are as constituted. I don't think they have enough on the defensive side of the ball to match up with Golden State over the course of a full series.

We saw maybe their best shot at that last season. And not, I mean, not to sneeze at all. I was seven games and down to the second half in a world historic cold shooting streak. But I just have a hard time seeing their defensive capacity get back to that level and the way it needs to be in that matchup. Whereas there's just so much athleticism, so much. length and the kinds of things of players who can put pressure on all those Golden State actions on the perimeter that can make life tough on Steph Curry and Clay Thompson getting

free off the ball that can kind of grind that offense down. And as soon as they force a turnover, they're off to the races and it's a runout dunk for Russ or PG or whoever. And I feel like having George at this level being a number one offensive sort of focal point who can get his 2930 against anybody basically alongside Westbrook being, who's showing shot the ball a little bit better recently and shown more signs of being able to put his thumbprint on a game no matter kind of what's happening, I think it makes them a more dangerous opponent

than just about anybody else in the West. But there will be arguments to be made for everybody else out there. Houston certainly with a healthy Chris Paul has a one-two punch unlike just about anybody else in the league. Denver deserves at least some credit in this situation, especially if they get the kind of Paul Millsap they've had over the last few games

who's been killing it and looking healthier than he has in a couple of years. So there will be some options out there. there. But to me, it's Oklahoma City because of what George has been this season and what their defense can do. It would be nice. It would just be nice. I would like somebody, anybody to challenge them, please. This is a corner I've been on for the entirety of hosting heat check that just anybody to challenge the Warriors would be wonderful. You know, it's still going to be them, but whatever. I just, I'm so resigned to it. It makes my head hurt. Like, I would really like there to be

some mystery to who's going to win. And we have none. All right. Among your other MVP candidates, You list Yokic and then some other really good dudes. You said, KD, Steph, Kauai, LBJ, and then at the very end you had Embed. So I guess my last question for you before you go is, why do you hate Embed? I kind of had a feeling the way you said at the very end you have Mbid. All of Philadelphia wants to know about your New York bias and why you hate Embed. Well, I kind of feel like I can't hate on Embed at this point because he's basically a co-worker now after going on desktop, right? And generating aggregatable content.

out of the desktop studios. We have multiple ringer personalities employed by the 76. They moonlight for the Sixers. Their main job is here at Ringer H-Kill. Sort of like sleeper cells. Yeah, I agree. It's more, I guess if I had to put it as a one-liner, it's that the best player on the fifth best team

doesn't have as good of a case as the best player on the best team. And so it's not so much that Embed has not been sensational because he very clearly has and has some of those historic production kinds of things, too. Before this season, only six players ever. had averaged at least 27 points, 13 rebounds and three assists per game, and Jojo's on his way there.

Pretty good. Pretty good. Really, really impressive. And he's been sensational for a team that has needed him to be that as it has navigated, what, four different rosters since the start of the season. But it's just that at the end of the day,

you sort of put together what his best case is, and I think it winds up slotting down below the best cases for Janus, Hardin, and George. And then you can sort of argue for other guys, too. Jockeys for position with guys like Yokic and the Steph KD guys in Golden State, stuff like that. So I think the best argument that he can have to cement himself in that conversation is going to come in the postseason, and that's after the ballots are already cast. Sixers fans, if you're looking for Dan, you can find him, Dan.com at the ringer.com.

Send him an email, see what you think. Dan, you're prolific. You write like 47 things a week. How many stories did you write just in the 20 minutes that we were talking? I didn't write any while we were talking. I'm not sure. It's unusual for you. But the one that I wrote while I was getting ready for the podcast might be up already. So something about LeBron and his most recent weekend, comments where the Lakers are at and so on. That'll be up this afternoon at Theringer.com. Read Dan Devine. Always. Dan Devine, you are the best.

Thanks, buddy. Gans, thanks so much. I want to thank Shay Serrano. I want to thank, of course, my producer, Isaac Lee. We've been reunited and it does feel so good. And I want to remind everybody to please rate and review us on iTunes. And don't forget the mismatches on Tuesday. You've got group chat on Thursdays.

He's got the corner three on Fridays. I'm back. I'll be back on Monday with Isaac Lee. Keycheck, we're not going anywhere. We're not. Thanks for listening to everybody. Bye.