The Ringer NBA Show - Arizona Fails to Adjust, Duke-UNC Hype, and a Life Update From Jonathan Tjarks | Upside High

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks start the pod by reacting to some of the weekend’s NCAA tournament action, with special focus on Arizona’s upset loss to Houston. They then pivot to the upcoming matchup between UNC and Duke and discuss the historic importance of this game to both schools (12:36). After the break, Jonathan talks about his physical and emotional struggles with chemotherapy and reflects on how his faith and basketball have enriched his personal life and career as a professional writer (15:02). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks Production Assistance: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, my name is Jay Kyle. Man, this is a show where we talk about the youth movement in basketball, rookies, grassroots, everything in between. I'm joined by one of the brightest minds in the sport, Mr. Jonathan Charks. John, how you doing, buddy? I tried to push back on that, but I guess you're, you're going to stick with it. So we'll let it slide. So humble. Just crushingly humble. Well, I got to pretend, Kyle. It's got to be the fake humility. Internally, I have my own thoughts,

but I'm going to at least pretend for the people, you know. Are you one of those people that can't take a compliment, or are you pretty good at taking compliments? What's the read there? I would say I'm pretty good at it. I believe most of them. I used to have this thing when I would play music where somebody overheard me one time. Do this. It's like I just wouldn't believe people. It's like a horrible quality. I don't know if anyone out there has it. Take my advice here. Like somebody said something nice to me and I was just like,

blah, blah, blah, just came back. Now that I can definitely believe about you for sure. Like that sounds about right. You put people in a horrible position when you do that. So I made it was my wife overheard that. It was like, stop doing that. Just say thank you. It was definitely your wife.

That's something your wife would say. So this past weekend, there were a few good games. I mean, St. Peter's taken down Purdue. Pretty wild. Did you get to check that one out? or which games were you most dialed in on this weekend? The Sweet 16 ones, the Elite 8 stuff got kind of wound down for me.

For you for St. Peters, was it kind of like consolation that they kept moving after Kentucky, had this great run? I was telling Chris Sutton, aka Hornet Leg, our producer, he was saying he was thinking about me, asked me if I felt any better about it. Not really, no, because Kentucky should have won. They still should have won. I mean, I did circle back to the point where I was, I don't. a moment where I was like, all right, well, I'll root for Murray State here, even though Murray State

is a rival of my alma mater, Moorhead State. No, I mean, I don't feel that, I don't feel any better about it, because Kentucky's in just like total flux right now, as we talked about. But it was fun to watch them take down Purdue. I mean, what was it about Purdue in Kentucky, you think, that made them both so vulnerable? I think it's Tolstoy said this. He said, all happy families are the same, but every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way kind of thing. I would say, Like Purdue and Kentucky, it's different for each of them. And I can get back around into this. I want to talk about Arizona.

Because I think what happened to Arizona is a perfect example of what happens in the tournament, what gets missed in the tournament. I watched a ton of Arizona this year. We kind of talked about before how I had wagered some money and I was kind of invested in their success. So they lost to Houston in the Sweet 16. I'll start here. If you look at the box score of this game, you'll see that to Bellis, their starting power forward and Krista, their starting point guard, combined to go one for 15 with six

turnovers and five personal fouls. And the initial, easy initial thing is, wow, two of their best players just played, had an off shooting night and just played terribly. I guess this kind of thing happens in March. And like that's true, but there's way more going on there. And it's so easy to miss this stuff because so many games happen in March, right? Then you're like, oh, Duke won that night and Gonzaga lost and oh, Arizona lost. I guess they were out coached. I don't really remember. And you just kind of forget. But it wasn't just random. Those two guys didn't just have bad games. So here's what happened in that game. In that game, Kelvin Samson and his coaches at U of H. They said, Arizona's got three NBA players, Mathuron, Koloko, Terry.

We don't want them to beat us. We're going to move this game towards Tebellis and Crissa. And what they did, they like played off those guys. They forced the ball into their hands. And they said, if those guys beat us, they beat us. And then conversely on defense, they attacked them constantly. They were like, okay, if Tebelos is guarding this guy, the other guy is going to screen, his man's coming off, we're putting Tebellis on a spot. He's going to have to commit to someone.

And it was play after play after play of this. And like they said, we're going to make these two guys the fulcrum of this game. And that's how a team with probably zero NBA players beats a team with three NBA players. And to bring it around, what's important about this is the Arizona coaches didn't recognize this, did not make an adjustment. Because the Arizona coaches, I think their philosophy was, were the number one seed in the tournament, were 33 and 3. what we've done is worked all season. We do what we do, and that should be enough. If we play the best version of Arizona basketball, nobody can beat us.

And the problem with that thought is, is like, they just ran their stuff. They ran their sets, and because of the way Houston was guarding them, the ball kept ending up in their worst players' hands. And for me, like, towards the end of the game, Arizona's, like, kind of hanging around, and they go smaller. or they take Tebella's out. At six minutes left in, their coach brings Tebella's back in. After he's been playing horribly the whole game, I just turned it off.

I said, okay, they're just not, like, they're not making adjustments to what's happening. They're not, and that's what it comes down to is like Kelvin Samson, he's able, he's like, I have a very experienced,

versatile team. I can find the weak spot in the opposing team and go at it. You have to be able to adjust to that. The tournament's not about being the best version of yourself. It's about, as you kind of said, the later day,

malleability and flexibility. You have to be able to adjust your game, respond quickly. These are not seven game series. You have to pre-adjust, and if you don't pre-adjust, and by pre-adjust, what that means is, like, before the game,

you and your coach had to say, what are they going to do to us? How do we self-scout? And if they do that to us, here's how we're going to counter. Arizona never self-scouted, never adjusted. And to bring it all the way back around,

Arizona's coach, Tommy Lloyd, was at Gonzaga for like 20 years. He's like Mark Few's right-hand man. He was the one who spearhead international recruiting. He was the one who kind of helped really put that program on the map. And Few is the same way. Few is a we run our stuff coach.

The problem is if you're a we run our stuff coach, eventually in the tournament, and it's like, wow, I won 33 games. I was the number one team in the country. I'm just going to run my stuff. But it only means so much in the tournament because in the tournament, you're going to run into the very, very, very best teams,

teams who are very, very well coached, who have the versatility to attack you and you have to adjust. And if you don't, these things keep happening to you over and over again. And then at some point someone was like, man, they get out-coached a lot. And like out-coach is one of those things that just kind of floats out there sometimes. Wow, they were out-coached. And what it usually comes down to is when someone says a team was out-coached,

what they really just probably saying is you had more talent than your team when you still lost. There's a million ways you can be outcoached, but I think the most common way is what happened in this game. And this game to me is a perfect example of how more talented teams the tournament lose. Do you think that Arizona for sure had more talent? Do you think this was a case of that? I'm not, I don't know that they did. I mean, they had the hot, they maybe had more upside talent.

I mean, with Terry and with and with Mathrin. I thought Mathron had some moments in this game where I was like, damn, I like his DNA as a player. Do you think for sure Arizona is more talented? or did they just kind of have a size advantage that they stuck with thinking it would work? I mean, I think so. One, like, who are the NBA players on Houston? None for sure. I mean, you never know. We have these conversations every year and somebody, I was curious to ask you, too. I mean, Calvin Sampson has had a career. He honestly might be like at a Blue Blood High Major by now. Well, he should have been. We know what happened to Calvin

Samson. Yeah, he was at a Blue Blood Highman. Sorry, Matt Dahlinger. Sorry, Dahlinger. I guess that was a savage one. That was really savage. if he ever got a chance. And what he went down for was so ridiculous, too, text messages. But I guess to go back, like, I think what Arizona should have done, they should have recognized that. And like, pre-adjustments can happen in the regular season. Arizona should have recognized Chris is a weakness, Tabalas is a weakness.

We've got to make sure Keir plays more. Me personally, I would have played Palo Larson and Kear a lot more. Chris had gone, Tabalas gone, maybe like Ballo, five minutes behind Coloco, six, seven-man rotation. Valo looked totally overmatched in this game. He was pretty bad too. Like Villanolov had a subman rotation to the final four. They got the six because the guy got hurt. Yeah. When it comes down to it, you've got to go with the guys you can trust. At the end of the day, you want your best players to win or lose the game for you. And if your best players play bad and you lose, then you just say we lost. What you don't want to have happen is you're not your best players to decide the game.

The other thing that's important about this is that, yes, there's a ton of randomness in March. Things happen. random though yeah yeah not it was just not random but that only makes controlling what you can control more important because like let's say you have the perfect team and you randomly lose because random stuff happens well that means the years where you didn't and you didn't control what you could control are even more damaging because you like you got to maximize what you can control because there's parts of it you can't control so if you're not maximized the parts you can control and there's luck involved now you're never going to win yeah and it seems like

Houston overall, you were talking about making line-up adjustments. It just seemed like they dictated the pace of the game. Kelvin Samson teams historically are known for defending their asses off. I mean, their activity and their energy was off the charts. The last three years, they've been Final Four, Elite Eight Sweet 16, the last three tournaments. Only one NBA player, Quinn Grimes. Like, that's not random either. Like, that's what Calvin Samson's coaching his butt off.

Yeah. And I was noticing here that Houston just hammered them in isolation throughout the game. They generated a lot more points. And you could see that Arizona was just trying to run their back cut offense and just they weren't getting anything out of it. Yes. They kept doing their back cuts. Like, bro, we're well coached. We know what you're doing. It's not going to work. Yeah, Houston was like pressuring the hell out of the entry passes. And I was laughing. We were talking about broadcasters. I've been really impressed with Jim Jackson. I don't know if you noticed him at all on the broadcast, but he's been really good. I've noticed him in other games too. He wasn't my favorite player, I guess, is why I'm saying that.

enjoyed his commentary but he at one point was so disgusted with Arizona's passing that he wasn't even doing like the broadcaster thing like oh bad pass he like in his normal social voice just went no like you could tell he was so disgusted but you're right man tubelis was horrible I really feel bad for kirk krishna um I feel like Arizona fans are going to run him off I don't feel bad for kirk kristian you hammered you've killed him lately you said you like Avery johnson a lot though I just enjoy his voice the sound of his voice is very it's just interesting. I don't only listen to the announcers that much is kind of background noise. So like just the way his intonations is just very pleasing to me. Overall, who do you think the favorite is now? I think the obvious answer. I mean, it's going to have to be Duke, right? Like, kind of how do you

feel how things are going to go from here? How do you feel about Duke and Duke UNC and just how Duke's playing? Duke, they absorbed a punch, you know, Texas Tech and Houston both like crazy like ball pressure. They fly around. Their activity is insane. They guard together. I didn't think Arkansas had a chance against Duke. I just didn't see that happening. But, you know, a lot of the draft conversations that come out of this weekend, Chet obviously got, I thought got hosed against Arkansas, even though Arkansas outplayed Gonzag as we talked about. But Duke gets to be the favorite. And this game against UNC, UNC's playing pretty well. I mean, their guards have been playing extremely well during March. They came into this game and looked like they were just like, we're just going to

crush St. Peter's soul. They had the benefit, I think, of more tape, too, to kind of, they They weren't going to be surprised. A little bit of element of surprise, I guess, when you're watching a team like St. Peters because they don't play big teams like this, not that they're going to change what they do a tremendous amount. But this game for Duke and UNC fans is going to be hilarious. I'm trying to think of the other times, like, major rivals have met. I mean, it's your voice. That's the obvious one.

Louisville, Kentucky, 10 years ago in the final floor. That was one of the worst nights of my life. Like, stress-wise, the night my son was born. Obviously, my wife was under more stress than me in that. one and then Kentucky Louis in the final four. I mean, I get it because like I put myself in my shoe. It's like Texas OU football. And those games are so stressful.

And Texas usually sucks and there's literally nothing to play for. And you're still super stressed out. Have you guys ever met in the playoff though? No. No. So that's what makes it like I can't even imagine all of that going into it. And now I'm meeting the playoffs, but the historic implications for this game. Like if UNC could beat Coach Gay again, I don't want to say it ends the rivalry.

That's obviously the rivalry going to be. on forever. But like that's one like, oh my God, that would be the biggest one ever. But if they want a title, it would be the biggest one ever. And obviously for Duke is the same thing to beat UNC on the way to a title. The stakes are just so high. I just hope they get a good game because college basketballs we've been talking about needs a great game. If we could get like Gonzaga, UCLA in this game, with the amount of eyeballs could be on this game would just be amazing. That's all I'm hoping for now. My worry is I hope that the officials, I hope that like the officiating doesn't have a big impact because throughout this tournament it has had a big impact and

it's been really frustrating. But yeah, the thing about this game and the thing about like that UK UVL game in 2012 was just that one team was in the position to spoil and I think that was what was so stressful. That game was just utterly joyless until the very end because they just kept hanging around and UVL fans wanted to happen because they wanted to spoil it. But I honestly feel like UNC plays them well. It's a good matchup. I'm really, really excited to watch the that one. So before we move on, though, we're going to talk about a variety of things. I don't know that I could nail it down exactly, but before we do that, we're going to take a break. Okay, so like Kyle talked about, it's a little different right now, the end of this pod.

This will actually be the last upside high pod for the indefinite future. It's really not what me or Kyle wanted, and it's just unfortunate. So what happened was last week, I went to get scanned for my cancer. I go pretty regularly. And what they found out was the latest chemo I had wasn't working. So that means the first two chemos that I've had for my kind of cancer have not been effective. And they've not been able to put me into remission. And what really sucks is that those two chemos that I've had now,

they were by far my best chance of going into remission. remission where it's okay you don't have any cancer we can't find it we know it'll probably come back but for now you're in remission and you're cancer free for the time being when that was on the table that scenario as a possible if not likely but least possible medical outcome i kind of have my feet in two worlds where it was like if i can get intermission for a year or two or multiple years and then maybe medicine changes and then who knows what could happen that was like one possibility but now that door is kind have been shut. And so what that means for me is, there's still more chemos I can try, but the chemos I'm

going to try now, they're going to be ones that are more, let's just as best we can, try to hold back the cancer and then try experimental stuff to see. Maybe this would work. Maybe it won't. And then basically it's more just like you're just trying Hail Mary's at this point. And so what that really means for me right now is just, I don't know how much time I have. left and I just there are things I want to get done at the time I have and so I just can't do I think I'm just going to I'll be just a fan for for a while now I my hope I really hope that like next year

I can come back and say hey man a miracle happened I'm just here I talk basketball but for now like there's just stuff I want to do that I need to make sure it gets done I think for me the only yeah I think like the playoffs as Kyle as you know there's so they're so time consuming it's all it's your whole, it becomes your life for a couple of weeks, just because there's so many games. There's too much stuff to keep track of. The only thing I really think I'll probably be doing is going to the Mavs games. So I might,

I might come back on here to talk about the Mavs or we're going to go on Bill's Pod or something, but that's probably the only basketball I'll be doing for the time being. So on a, on a day-to-day basis, I mean, what's your, what's your energy level like right now? What are you doing? I know you were playing basketball there for a little while. I assume it's a case of you're going to be focusing on.

on, you know, hanging out with Jackson, hanging out with Melissa, things like that. What's your energy level like right now? Well, it's two things. I mean, yeah, that's the main one. And then there's a lot of, like, writing I want to get done about this experience, writing for Jackson. And just kind of like I did a couple pieces before for the ringer. But the other part that's, like, really scary is the energy level changes really fast. Yeah.

Are these going to be more taxing, you expect? I don't know. But here's what's weird about it is that, like, I've been. been, so I had to stop chemo to get scanned. So I've only been off chemo a couple weeks now. And I can already feel it ramping up like my tumors. Like it just the progression the last week and a half has been like massive. You said you can physically feel it in your. Yeah. Yeah. It's literally a pain. And I always tell people like, I the expression pain in your butt, I get it now because I have a massive pain of my butt. And let me tell you. It's a pain in your butt. That's where you initially felt the

That was your initial thing that something was weird, right? Yeah. So that was for me at the least. I kind of have an early warning system. So I knew the scans would be bad last week, just because I'd already started to feel it. So I kind of knew. And it kind of tells me in a lot of ways, like I can feel the pain in the butt getting bigger. And so that means things are progressing.

So it's almost like every day is a new day. And I don't know. And I'm starting a new chemo by the end of this week. And hopefully that will help. But I don't know. I saw on Twitter where you were asking people for book recommendations. What kind of headspace are you trying to get yourself into when you? Because, I mean, cancer is unfortunately common, but it's like to tackle it mentally.

Most of us can't imagine it. Was that where your mind's headspace was when you were asking for book recommendations? Where are you with that? Honestly, I was like, I live next door to a Barnes & Noble. I live like down the street. So it actually was just like a good moment. Did I read too much? I mean, because like I feel like I was going to go that I'm like, well, I do have this Twitter account.

Like I want to hear the books that really matter to people. You don't fire off a lot of jokes. Literally it's like practically. Like what books did you all like? It's just like for me, reading has always been a huge part of my life. I've always loved reading. I find a lot of peace in it. It's like, well, I don't know how many books more I'm going to be able to read.

So let me make sure the books I read are good ones, right? It's like one thing I've learned in life is funny, man. It's like life is a referral business. That's something I've certain to believe. So an example of that. So I was talking to someone about, okay, literary agents reaching out to me about me trying to do a book about this experience. And I'm asking a guy on the publishing list.

You have had those conversations? And so I was asking the guy on the publishing side about like, how do I find a good literary agent? And he tells me he goes, the best way you can do it is to ask people you know who've written books and to ask what the agent they've used and if they've liked them. because experience is the best teacher. If you don't have experience in it, ask someone who has, right? It's like, where do you get jobs?

Most often than not? Because someone you know, right? Shoot, where do we both meet our wives who people we knew, right? That's just how life works. Life's a referral business. Where did you meet your wife? I don't think I've ever asked you, Melissa.

Actually, we both went to church together. It's a funny story. And this is kind of like the how the hand of God has been on my life in a lot of ways in really practical ways. I became a Christian, but after I became a Christian, my life was still pretty chaotic in terms of my lifestyle, the choices I was making.

And I was not really in a position where I could date realistically, like not to date to have like a strong marriage. So it took me a couple years to kind of get my life together. And I were praying to God one day being like, I'd love to day. I'd love to get married. I'd love to have a wife. And like, should I go online? What's the best way to do this?

You've always wanted that, you said. But I also knew like my life, I need to get my life together. the first, you know, you need to take care of yourself or you can extend out. And so I remember praying to God one day. I was like, okay, I think I'm ready. What's the next step? And I was like, should I go online, do all these, you know, whatever's. And I felt like I was said, wait till this date. And it was like the date of a community service project my church was doing. And literally, I was like, that date, wait till that date. Okay. So I do the community service project in the back of my mind obviously I'm thinking well you know who's here at this project with me is it her and is it her it was just

mostly my married friends so I was like I don't know what's going on I guess maybe I miss you know because prayer is hard sometimes if I misheard that maybe I got it wrong and then like literally I'm about to go play tennis with the friends after and then someone texts me hey we're meeting up with some people after the project just to hang out you should come hang out I was like okay do that so we go to a bar it's like it's like two in the afternoon. It's for those outdoor bar patio setups, just hanging out having a good time. And then my wife comes to the bar looking like now I know that. Melissa comes. And then all I hear is her telling the story about how she just been in New York City with her family. And immediately I ride her off, girls rich, stuck off. I got no time for this. So then I just go about my business. And then

later on, like me and a friend, we start playing there's a sand volleyball courts. And me, and then two friends, a guy and a girl who at the time weren't dating. We're playing sand volleyball. Melissa comes over to start playing sand volleyball with us. And then she's my partner and we start playing back and forth. And then that's where it all started. It was just like that. Yeah, that's where it all started. That's awesome. Your wife is a sweet, nice person. I like her a lot. The one time I got to hang out with you guys in Vegas when we were picking out at Best Friend. And that was called Best Friend. Best Friend. That's a great establishment if you're ever in Las Vegas.

Yes, I do recommend that one. I was curious to ask you about your career because you and I had, we said this like when you were on chemo, was that a year ago? It feels like a long time ago and we had those conversations. Yeah, I started last year, yeah. We had those conversations just about our careers and how there had been some parallels. And you said some things that I thought were really interesting. Because we've both been pretty fortunate, right?

I mean, like, we both love basketball. People ask me, like, how things are going and everything. and I'm like, I'd be a total asshole to complain about my life. We've been very fortunate, I guess is my point. But you know, I think we both have people. I used to email you when I wasn't working in basketball, and people want to talk about their careers. It doesn't even apply necessarily to writing,

but it's across the board. Talk about your career in the ups and downs, and it seems like you learn some pretty valuable lessons in those ups and downs. I mean, you know what I'm referring to specifically, but what would you tell young riders, especially, like, based on what you've gone through? Okay, there's a million things. Maybe I'll write something about it at some point.

Number one, I think what me and you really kind of related on is we both had to like grind it out and like see how like real life works. Like we didn't always work in media. I think that was something we both bonded over. It was like when you work in media, if you go right from college to media. And I did do that at first. And I was a terrible employee. I got fired like two or three times.

Why did you get fired, though? You keep describing this version of you because everybody knows John Sharks is this sweet, nice dude. You always described this other life you had of where you were like, I had to clean my life up. I picture John waking up next to a bottle of Jack

and he's like lost everything. I'm just curious, how did you get fired? What did you do? The first time I got fired, I actually got fired from an unpaid internship right out of college. They called me back on a Friday. That's always a bad thing.

sign right. I got the five o'clock on Friday. Hey, can you come meet me in my office from my boss? You know, you know, you probably been there. And then he's telling me how like I've been disruptive. I know, basically what my last straw was I literally, I fell asleep at my desk in the bullpen of a news website. And I was an intern and I just just fell as I just dozed off at my desk. So I was tired. I'm obviously. And then he's like, we're going to have to let you go. And then I'm like, but you don't even pay me. So yeah, we just. Ultimately, we just don't even want you around. I'm just going to have to go.

God. Ouch. He didn't say it like that, but that was like, it was like, wow, this was really shocking to me because I'm like, I thought, I'm thinking this is a great start to my career. And I literally got fired from an unpaid internship. And so that was like the first time I got fired. And then the second time I got fired, I had been working at this company for a long time. And I thought I would get a promotion.

The guy who had had the job before me left, I kind of assumed the sale a bit and I was like, I'm the best person qualified for this job. I really want this job. I think I deserve it. I should get it. And then so I just kind of started doing his job when he left

because no one was doing it because it was like an internet company, right? It's like things just kind of don't happen or do. And so I thought in my head it was done. Like I thought my other boss above him had like told me basically in my mind I was going to be that person. And then I wasn't that person. And I just completely flipped out. And then like over the next week, I basically told them like, hey, I'm going to go look for

other jobs because I feel like you're not valuing me. And then you said, well, if that's the case, then you just don't have to come back. And I'm like, oh, I didn't see that one coming. So these both, it seems like, were cases of you not knowing that you were treading on thin ice and you just continued to skate around and do triple access. And that was like for me, like I come out of college writing the media and I think it's normal and how like these easy cush jobs we have. And I'm like so ungrateful for it and I'm so ambitious.

And I'm not like being thankful for it at all. And that's like for me was like hitting bottom. And I think I guess what I was telling you about was like then if like three or four years from when I was at the ringer, I worked at a beer distributor. And literally my job was to drive around town, go to grocery stores, count the number of beers that were missing from the display, go to the back, bring those beers back to stock the shelf again. And like I would do that for like 20, 30 hours or,

week and I would write on the side. And that for me is like those ended up being the most important years for me because it taught me so much about like work ethic. Like you think we work hard doing this BS? This is not working hard. Now I'm going to sound like a 90 year old man, but whatever. Like working hard is like I was in the back of a grocery store with no air conditioning, grabbing beers from like a third floor with the forklift and like the forklift and like the forklift and one of you has to go up there and unjammed the forklift. It's like crazy. like probably wasn't even safe you know what I mean and you're like and then you got to put a fork lift back and you got to like these old wooden beer cases and you're having to like jam

them in the back of a store that's hard work what we do is not hard work and so for me I've always at the ringer I've always remembered the years I had to where I was humbled and I had to learn about like you know what's really just it was a very humbling experience but ultimately so life giving and enlightening experience yeah it was funny when we had that conversation to find out that we had comment people that work with i don't know if any of them would ever listen to this but they'll attest to it uh i was just an asshole just very arrogant just very arrogant i've apologized to people and i was like i just really thought i was always right i thought every idea i was condescending and a mean teaser and stuff like that and getting fired man honestly was the best thing that ever happened to me

i've told me it was like the humility i'm not i'm not acting like i'm a humble person now but eating shit the way i did was like it just changed my life i didn't take anything like that for granted ever again. To bring it back around, it's like your writing thing. It's like most young writers out of college aren't going to be full-time writers or media people. I mean, you're going to have to have a day job. And it's like, it's good to have a day job in some respects because you learn a lot about the world that way. So were you just the guy riding around in a beer truck, like just popping off like anywhere you could get off your basketball takes? Like, is that, is that kind of what was going on during that time? Yeah, so I was the pattern of basketball.

So I've had like four or five blogs over the years. Here's a good story. I'll tell it. I'll, I'll So what it was, at the time, even though I had been fired again, I was still working at Real GM. I still had some freelance connections. So I was still working, and I was still hoping to make it full time. And then I think about the beer job, I'm working like 25 hours a week. That's enough time to pay the rent. And then like with my writing. So I still had a ton of time to write and watch basketball.

And here's actually another example of the hand of God in my life. So I remember I was, and I'm praying to God. And I'm like, okay, God, like, I don't know what it's going to happen in my career. I don't know what's next for me. Like, what's the best way? I'd like to be a full-time basketball writer. And if I do, I'm not going to forget you. I'm going to point people towards you while I'm doing this with the platform you've given me.

How do I get from A to B? I don't know what to do, obviously. And I felt like God told me in so many words, it's like, you have a lot more time than you think you do because you spend so much time on social media and Twitter. And that was like, this is like 2014. And that's when I first started getting off Twitter. And he's just like all that time you're spending on Twitter, you're thinking you're advancing

your career, but you're not really. And like take that time and start a blog. My first blog is like in 2009 and 2011. So I was doing that. That's why I first got on with Real GM. And I had blogged in years. Like start a blog. That's actually going to make you stand out the way things are now.

So all the time you are spending on social media, spend that time blogging and writing. And so I created a pattern of basketball. And I did pattern of basketball and worked at this beer distributor place for like probably three or four years. And not much came of it. And I'm a steady being faithful, writing, blogging, doing it. Because obviously I love doing it anyways. And then out of the blue one day, I get an email from Chris Ryan. He says, hey, man, we're thinking about, you know, Bill's going to do a new startup.

And he just, I'll never forget this. This email he says, I read your blog all the time. I think it's great. And I was wondering if you were interested in doing it. And it was kind of, it's more of this moment where it was like. Did you fall over? Oh, I was just like, wow. Like, look at the hand of God in my life.

Like, this is not something I would have done without prayer and God being like, do it like this. When you talk about God, you're talking about Chris Ryan, right? God works in mysterious waves and moves through people. He might not suspect. But yeah, it was just like, and I was like, wow, this actually happens. Like this prayer, these things I felt like I should do actually came true. And it was like, wow, that's crazy. That's amazing. You got the email out of the blue. I was curious, was basketball your first, like, love? Like, when did you get into it? Did you grow up like Longhorn fan? I don't think we've ever really talked about that. I think actually the first sport I really loved is actually baseball when I was like five or six. I loved the number. I just thought it was so cool. I just thought it was so cool. I just throwing baseball and hitting baseball so fun. But then I just kind of growing. I was really tall. Like I'm six four now. I was always a tall kid. And so then just naturally I was just gravitating towards basketball.

basketball because basketball, I mean, you're tall, right? So I'd say I really fell in love with basketball on like fifth or sixth grade. I started taking it really seriously playing all the time. And that was like my transition to like, okay, I think by like eighth or ninth grade, like this is what I loved. I spent like four. So from like fifth grade to 12th grade, I probably played basketball. I'm not like every day. Just like that was what I wanted to do. And so that was like what I love doing was just playing basketball. That's how it all started for me. And you said, K. was like one of your was your guy people maybe don't know this you were in college when katie was there yeah i mean dirk was my original favorite player because i was 12 when dirt came to dallas oh wow and so i got to

watch the whole career and i always tell i always say like so much of my writing career probably started because you know being a hardcore mavs fan and then being like they don't understand how good dirk is they just don't get it i was like 17 on like real like inside hoops and all those message boards being like, you fools to understand how good Dirk is. So do you remember him as a rookie? So if you were 12, I was 12 in like 98, I guess. So you were a little, you were probably like 10, I guess when he came. How immediately did you know Dirk was like special, special?

So like the first years, I remember it was like Dirk Finley and Nash. So like it was more of like a triumvirate. It was more of like this is great. They were so much fun to watch. I'm just learning about basketball. And then in Dallas for me when I like knew Dirk was like the man was actually it's my senior year of high school. That was 2006.

That was the year the Mavs beat the Spurs. Do you remember this? I'm curious if you remember this as an outsider. Game 7, Dirk versus Tim Duncan, down three on the road, 10 seconds left. Dirk drives the lane, gets an and one, ties the game, man who fouls him.

So that was the 06. He ended up losing the heat last year. But once Dirk beat the Spurs, I was like, I believe that Dirk is the man. He's the one, he's the best player we've ever had. did like let's just go with it i'm always going to believe in dirt after that and then there were the many years before 11 but yeah so was d and then kd because i was at texas when kd was there and that was amazing obviously so you've had two revolutionary like stretch fours in your life i think so i and i think

that really helped me it's so much of life i feel like you know like for bill right bill growing up with the celtics in the 80s with larry bird and it like i always like so much of my experiences anyone's experiences what their perception of what happened to them affects how they see the world and And for me, it was such a privilege to see that. Like I was saying, like, watching Dirk so much, it forced me, it really, like, brought into full perspective what the things people on TV were saying, I knew weren't necessarily right because I was seeing it firsthand. And so that always, like, I think that was one of the things in the back of my mind was like, there's more to this. I have something to say. I have a perspective other people don't have because of the way I grew up.

So that started pushing you to doing the writing. So there was a little fire there. Like, I'm right. I know something these people don't know. That created John Charks, the blogger. A little bit. And then like also to, I'm playing basketball at time. But by the time I was like in 10th grade, it became obvious.

I was not going to play in the NBA. So I joined the school paper. I was like, obviously I'm not going to be a basketball player. So then it's like I did the whole writing thing and the basketball thing. I go to college, stop playing basketball like competitively. And I'm just writing. And I got into like news writing, political writing, all this kind of stuff. And then for me it was that I was saying that job, I got me fired, the internship.

It was a political website. And I really fell out of love. I was like, this is all the worst parts of sports writing without the parts of going to the game. Like this is just like their games are elections. It's just not, it's really cynical and depressing. And then I was like, I know basketball. I know writing. I can combine these two things.

if I'm going to write and write about basketball, so I really know. And that's kind of what brought me full circle. Do you have the favorite thing you ever wrote for the site? For The Ringer? Yeah. You know, the thing I wrote about my son for sure, you know. I think there was a lot of ways it was like, that was like full circle for me. And it was talking about my son, talking about my experience with my dad growing up,

the lessons I've learned. And I think that's the stuff is like most important for me is like here the kind of God I was saying, here are my experiences, here are the lessons I've learned for. them and here's why i believe what i believe has jackson showed any interest in basketball whatsoever yet he's all in the cars right now tucks he was in the kyes now he's in the tucks dump a tuck dump a tuck he just rolling trucks around we're going to go to a car show see a drag race in a couple i'm pretty excited for that it's gonna blow his mind yeah i've joked with me the same kind of thing julian has shown virtually zero interest in it he'll say ball well he's young it's not

worry too much about that right now, Kyle. You're not raising Tiger Woods here. You don't need into getting golf balls at two. That's what you think. I'm about to go Richard Williams on this little boy. We're going to get him into IMG Academy and Daddy's going to have a star on his hands. No, I don't really care. I said it'd be the ultimate revenge on me if he, because my dad wanted me to be into like engineering and planes and stuff and I was like, ball, dad, ball. And I feel like the ultimate revenge is going to be if it flips the other way and he's into cars and I'm just like, I, dad doesn't know anything about cars. I wanted to ask you just really quickly about the NBA just in the next few years. Who do you think is going to be the best point guard in the NBA in the next five years?

I'm not the, I'm going to say, I call my guy Luke, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Luke is an interesting thing. Are you confident about the direction that the Luca experience is going? Do you feel like we've pivoted into a better direction with him? Because for a while there people were down on him. And I know, you know, I guess the improvement of personnel has made a huge difference. But he's looked better. What do you expect. That's hard for me to say. Not that I was around the team much than last year and a half anyways, but when I was running, we didn't talk much to the media. So it's hard to know. For me, my perspective on Luca is ultimately he's going to have to build a personal relationship with some other great NBA player. I think all the great players, you have to have the number two

guy. You have to have someone, obviously it wasn't KP. Luca's going to have to figure out a way to make his game work with one other great player. I think it'll happen at some point in his career. I don't know what that progression is going to look like. I've always said, Lucas should be like the godfather of European basketball. You know how like LeBron we shout to Anthony Davis? I was like,

Lucas should have Victor Wembeyanama's number. They should be talking all the time. Like give this man advice, build these kids up. Because that might be his best chance, honestly. It's like the kid, these European kids, they all going to want to be like Luca, right?

And he's like, let me break it down for you. Like, here's how it works. Like, lift someone up. And then, like, that guy can maybe be your co-star eventually. Because the NBA, like, life is about relationships. And Luca right now, these are the, I always like, these are the Kobe years for Luca. These are the years between Shaq and Gasol for Kobe.

Those, these years for Luca. Part of any great player's progression is I'm going to push the limits as far as I can, see what I can do. I'm really excited to watch them push the limits this year. but ultimately I think he's going to end up reaching a spot where my greatness can only go so far. Now I must learn how to incorporate my greatness with someone else's greatness. That's the Luca experience. So how that's going to go, I mean, who knows?

That's his journey. You're probably the person that I trust the most on Luca takes. He's like, I've watched him a lot. I feel like I know his game the best, but I feel like periodically I've checked in with you and you'll be like, no, it's this, this and this. I would be like, but I mean, I don't know, man. I've really enjoyed, I mean, I'm pulling for you to keep fighting this. I know it's, you're in, you're in a situation with this chemo.

I mean, like I said earlier, like most of us can't fathom what you're, what you're going through with this. And I'm pulling for you. And I know you, you have one of the most to the point. It's not like you're like impervious to the reality of the situation, like when we talk. But it's like you, you have such a clearheadedness about the way you think about things. and I have learned a lot about basketball. I remember coming to you with some kind of meta-galaxy brain

kind of thought on something. You were like, this isn't complicated. It's basketball. I appreciate the way that you do that. But I guess that's my way of just saying that, like, I'm holding for you and we all are. And we keep getting to have these conversations, you know? Yeah, it's been a great, I mean, a couple things I want to say.

I mean, number one, it's been like one of the funnest parts of working. I've met the ringer like six years, and this pot has been one of the most enjoyable things. So I just wanted to encourage you, and I really enjoy getting to know you, getting to hear your perspective on things. So I wanted to say that first off. And then second off, I wanted to thank everyone. I wanted to thank everyone who listens and sent encouragement and supported us. That's been a real honor and a blessing. Like we've been saying, like we know how lucky we are to do what we do.

And we know that what we do is based on people listening. And so I always appreciate the support. That means a lot to me. On top of that is like people who've reached out to the year the last year, encouragement, support, donations, prayers. And it's like I really do believe it's, I think it's, I'll get the small, those small acts of kindness, I think are just so important. And that's what's really important in life is like,

small acts of kindness, those mean way more than you might know. There's so much more important than like the big things we do in this life is like, I'm reading a ton of ecclesiastes, man, that all goes away. Like the big stuff, the big dreams, this company, the NBA, it's like it's all going away one day. But I do think the small things we do live forever because I'll, so I'm going to You're going to have to indulge me now because I'm going to just start dropping some scripture. I indulge you all the time.

So I'm going to start just dropping some scripture. And then Jesus said, hey, people say like what you did. He said, remember that time that you gave me a cup of water or you gave me a cloak when I was cold and you like were there for me? And so he says, he's talking to people after they've died. And I said, I don't remember doing that. I don't remember doing any of those things. And he said, no, what you did for the least of us, you've done for me. And it's been crazy.

I guess in my life, I've always, like, I've had have been pretty lucky before this experience. I've been pretty blessed. I've never really felt like the least of us before. It's very different when you feel like you're depending on the kindness of others to get through the day. And it's like the kindness of others is what gets you through the day. It's when you feel cared for and loved. And yeah.

And so a couple things I wanted to say. So these are the Bible verses that always that meant the most to me. I wanted to like talk about them a little bit. So the Bible verse that meant the most to me in my life. It's called the first letter of John. It's not the gospel of John. It's the first letter of John. The first letter of John is a letter.

So John was Jesus's best friend. He was the, there's 12 disciples. John was the one he was most close to. John was the disciple that Jesus said, asked him to look after his mom after he was going to die. He said, please, I trust you. I want you to take care of my mom. I want you to look after her. This was his best friend of all the disciples.

And it is funny, too, because John in the gospel of John, like mentioned it several times. It's so human. Like, that was me. I was his best friend. In there a verse even where he says something about like John ran the fastest to the tomb. He was always dropping that stuff in there. The one who we love the most. It was like, this is so great.

Of course, how good you're not? Right. So the first letter of John, he's writing this letter to the churches. So he's a lot older. Jesus has died. Christianity has risen, been persecuted. I don't think he's in exile yet. So John ends up writing the book of revelations later.

But the first letter of John, he writes it to the churches. And this is what he says. And he says, and this is always stuck with me. He says, that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at at our hand, and our hands have touched. This we proclaim concerning the word of life. The life appeared. We have seen it and testify to it.

And we proclaim to you the eternal life, which is with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete. So what he's saying there? He's saying, look, I knew Jesus. I saw him with my eyes. I shook this man's hand.

I hugged this man. I knew him. I talked to him. This actually happened. I saw it happen. And it's just so crazy to me. I love that because I look at our world now. And I say, like, you look at it this way.

we don't know we weren't there to say about Jesus about what happened if we assume if like you assume that okay if there is a god and if that god did come down to earth that moment would have been the most important moment in human history that person would have been the most famous person in human history guess what who is the most famous person in human history right the man who claimed to be God. What was the most important moment in human history? Well, what year do we live in right now? What does that even mean?

2022. We literally date history by this man's birth. So all that to say is like, it holds logically. And then it's like, well, what if we were walking through this world and we're these people and here's this letter? And you look at this letter and it says, no, this really happened. Like, I was here. Whoa, this is crazy.

I remember reading that this is crazy. This is like John saying, I know you're not going to believe me. Because what he's saying is like, I know you're not going to believe me. It doesn't seem plausible. It seems too weird and out there. But trust me, I was there. I did it. I saw it.

I touched him. And now I'm sharing this letter with you because that's what I've been asked to do. And it's like, this letter has been around for like 2,000 years now. And I think it's written for everyone to be like, this really happened. And I think, so that's part one. And part two of the letter is important. is that this. It says, dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God because

God is love. This is how God showed his love among us. He sent his one and only son into the world that we might live through him. This is love, not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. Now here's, no one has ever seen God. But if we love one another, God lives in us and has made, his love is made complete in us. So the point of that is like, this is how we see the love of God in the world. This is how God has chosen it to be.

Is when we love each other, when we make these small acts of kindness, when we get there for the least of us, this is how the love of God is seen in the world. This is the task that God has given his people. It's like that to me is like that is the gospel and so many words. Like this is it. It's just that simple. It's just loving one another. It's not winning elections.

It's not making grand speeches. It's not any of that. It's not even doing these podcasts. Crazy as that might sound. It's just loving people. Well, I'll draw the line somewhere. And so I'll wrap it up like, I'll wrap it up with this. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command.

but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am also writing you a new command. Its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing, and the true light is already shining. That's just like my heart for people. That's what I believe.

And it's like, that's what I hold on to. It's like there's a lot of darkness in my life right now, and I don't know how it's going to end for me. And I hope, I really hope that I'm back and that we can just talk about basketball. But no matter what happens, like I know the true light has already come to the world. The true light is already shining. And it's just like, man, it might sound too good to be true.

I didn't grow up in the church. It might be true. You have to admit that it might be true. And then you might find out and just hold on to that hope that maybe it is. Maybe the true light has come. And that's all I really wanted to say. Well, I've always appreciated your sincerity and conviction that, And you come to all this stuff from a place of real compassion.

I mean, in conversations you and I have had over the past couple, two, three years and longer, I guess. I'm losing track of time now. But it's always been refreshing to me. And like I said, I've enjoyed just getting to be your friend and getting to do this show with you. And I'm praying and hoping that we get to do more of them. And I don't know, what do you say in these situations? It's like we're being positive and we're going to be pulling for you. I know everyone is.

And like you said, you appreciate when people reach out. And those little acts of kindness mean a lot and they matter. And I just wanted to add that Disciples, 12-man team, they got that rotation down to like seven or eight by the playoffs, though. They didn't play a deep bench. That was for you. That was revenge on you. They had their core group.

It was Peter, John, and James. Those were like the foundational people. And everyone else fit around. The original big three. The original big three. The player, you know, the Marygo Round era, as Bill calls it. John, we'll be in touch, man. For sure. We'll circle back and we want to hear from you and, you know, basketball is a luxury to get to talk about it at all.

It's very fun. And, you know, getting to talk about it with you is, uh, as an extra luxury. I enjoy it and I'm going to, we're going to do more of it. Absolutely. I just want to say again, I've loved enjoying, just spending time talking with you, man. It's been really awesome. It's been a great thrill and I've loved every minute of it. Me too, man. I think we're going to wrap it up there. Reach out to John and, and ask him how he's do it. Yeah, email me. Shoot me a book recommendation, but only one book. I probably won't read most of them, but only one. I might read the one you sent me. I don't know. Should be a book recommendation on email. It's on the Twitter page. And I'll be back to talk Mavs somewhere along the road. So I'll be around to talk MAPS for sure. You will. And the sharpest Mavs guy. We'll be waiting for it. All right, folks. We'll catch you next time. It's been upside high. And John, it was good to see you. Good to hear from you, man. Yeah. And thanks again to everyone who listened, tweeted, liked, commented, supported. We've really appreciate. appreciate it. And it's like, it's been our great joy to do this. We know how lucky we are. And we're just, we're thankful for the support we've gotten. We appreciate you guys a lot. Couldn't have said it better. All right, guys. We'll see you next time.