The Ringer NBA Show - Awards Ballots (in Pencil) | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 7, 2024

Justin and Rob start by talking about the recent poor play from the Bucks, Pelicans, and Cavaliers before briefly having a conversation about the Basketball Hall of Fame and this year's honorees (13:24). Then they run through this year's awards ballot, including  MVP, Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, Sixth Man of the Year, and Coach of the Year (21:32). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Tucker Tashjian Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. This is David Shoemaker. The pro wrestling world is currently on fire. And so we've got you covered five days a week on the ringer wrestling show. Every Monday and Thursday, hang out with me and Kaz on The Masked Man Show. And this is Peter Rosenberg, the host of Cheap Heat. Join me and my guys, Stack Guy Greg and Dipperstein on Tuesdays and Fridays. We talk wrestling. We have bagel breakdowns, mage interviews, and so much more. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Wednesday. Worldwide, where we hit the most interesting headlines and even react to some of mass mans, cheap heats, or even your hottest tics. Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ring or Wrestling Show feed. Now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

And stay mage, everyone. Worldwide. To group chat, I am Justin Barrier and joining me, as always. Rob Mahoney. No big was today. Had some flight trouble ostensibly, allegedly. But just you and me, buddy. Yeah, we don't need Waz.

You know, he's being detained by Border Patrol right now, but it's all right. We're going to get him back stateside soon enough. The Mounties have him just in a back room, just giving him a talking to. A lot of questions to be answered about what's in Waz's suitcase. Well, Waz isn't here, but the hat is still here because my Yukon Huskies are moving on, at least one of them. I guess if we're doing the Waz comp, we lost one of my brothers and my sisters on Friday night, but we have one still going on here strong. I don't know if you saw the woman's game on Friday.

I was quite perturbed as a result of that. What were you perturbed by? I don't know if you've seen the last play, the decisive play, which I have to say was highway robbery. I just can't believe they made that call. It was definitely a moving screen. I would say it was probably a moving screen. my thing is like if you're going to call that,

you might as well call pretty much every screen ever set in college basketball because I was watching Zach Eadie the following day on Saturday. And I have to say there's a lot of movement, a lot of swaying side to side, a lot of arms being thrown out there. This is just setting screens. And so much like in football, if you're going to,

you can call holding on every play, you could have called every moving screen in college basketball. There's a lot of trench warfare, even at the NBA level in terms of screening, but look, if you want me to sit here and defend college level fundamentals, I simply will not do it. That said, I've really enjoyed the women's tournament games, and particularly this Iowa run, has been awesome to watch. So I'm eager to see what happens in the final. That game, it's unfortunate that it came down to ultimately, like a moving screen call, but it was also definitely a moving screen.

So I find, you know, I can't get on too high a horse about it. I think the biggest problem, honestly, with that play was that the way it was initially broadcast on the replay made it look like a very clean screen. And so people became entrenched in their corners very quickly. Before we got the Zapruder level, oh, wait, maybe she slid over like four feet in the setting of this screen. Second replay. I think they just saw all the Jason Siddakes cutaways.

And they're like, we need that to sell our national TV game today on Sunday. It was fun. Nonetheless, I will say, like the matchups have been exciting. Caitlin's run has been very good. And we still have the men going strong. Kling Kong versus Zach Eady, are you excited? I don't even know what any of that means. But if they do win, are you keeping the hat on as a bit?

Or is this tournament only? That's a good question. I'm not really a hat guy. Well, you are now. I kind of feel like a fraud wearing one right now. So I would say at least for the next episode if they win, but then we could maybe do a poll. Ask the readers how they want to see me on their social media clips.

How do you want to see me? I like the idea of a reader poll, although I think they should be able to choose your accessory. You know, hat, chains, glasses of varying sizes and colors. If you want to rock like a Quinn Snyder red frame, I think you could pull that off. I just want to see you expanding your look. I think that's important for the development of our show. Maybe the arrow through the head and the nose like Steve Martin.

Why not? Great. We have some options here. We're going to get into our awards balance, which I have to say, I love doing this exercise. I don't know if I'll love having this conversation with you, ultimately. We'll find out about that. But we'll get to that.

I want to hit before we do that, some news that's kind of percolating in the NBA over this weekend. A pretty busy weekend for news this late in the season. First and foremost, I think we almost need to do a mea culpa or several meaacolpas because I think some of the teams that we've been high on of late have really fallen flat on their face here. I'm talking about the Pelicans, the Bucks, and to a certain degree, the Cleveland Cavaliers, all had really rough weekends. And so my question to you, Rob,

is which of these three teams now is the least serious? This is some tough competition, Justin. A lot of unsurious basketball being played at this juncture in the season. It's very hard to pick against the Bucks, losers of five of their last six, including three straight to the Wizards,

raptors, and the Pistons in there, too, right? Like, grizzlies. Sorry, the Grizzlies. That's grounds for relegation, I would say, in most NBA seasons. But right now, I still feel like the Bucks are better positioned for playoff basketball than, for example, the Cleveland Cavaliers who have not played well in a while. Donovan Mitchell has not looked the same since coming back from that knee injury. And overall, even while resting him games here and there and trying to get their line up more complete,

we just have no body of evidence this season to suggest that the complete Cleveland Cavaliers know what they're doing and know how to play together. And they are out of time. So in terms of looking at the cabs and saying, that's a team that can advance or advance through multiple rounds, I just don't see the argument for it at this stage. I think it has to be the Pelicans. Really?

One, because going into, I think it was Friday night's game against the Spurs, if you listen to the local broadcast in New Orleans, Joel Myers was very explicit that this is the exact type of game that they cannot lose. They have to show up for this type of game because this is the program who, would typically lose this game. And also, the stakes were just much higher. Like the bucks, if they lose a couple games here and there,

like, if anything, it might actually benefit them to get out of maybe the two range and perhaps play an easier team in the first round with the Pelicans. They're still fighting for their lives to get into the sixth seat to stay out of the play and mess. But here they are. Losers of four in a row. I know

Zion wasn't there on Friday. I know Brandon Ingram wasn't there. And I know Victor Wevignon Yama is the exact guy you do not want to see this late in the season. He's playing like a goddamn MVP candidate. But now they find themselves into the play in mix in seventh. And it's looking pretty dicey. And so just in terms of like the stakes, the context, I got to say the Pelicans really, really disappointed me. I think that's on us. We were way too confident in talking about the pelicans on the last pod. I take full responsibility. But to me, the Pelicans are the most

explicable because Ingram has been out. And now you don't want to put that as an excuse on a team that's this deep. Like the Pelicans have a lot of bodies. They have a lot of really good players. They should be able to overcome those circumstances to win some of these games. But the difficulty of the schedule, missing one of their best players, the fact that, okay, maybe they were overperforming through some of the regular season. Maybe they aren't actually a fourth or fifth ranked team in the Western Conference and they're a little closer to the seventh eighth and this is just coming back down to Earth. I think all of that kind of makes sense for them. And so I see this is kind of, you know, although our confidence excluded, we really,

had come along on the Pelicans bandwagon, maybe this is just the reality of who they are, and it's certainly the reality of who they are without Brandon Ingram. I knew it in my gullet that we shouldn't trust them. We knew it. We've been saying it all year. Can't trust this team.

And yet, we did it anyways. We're fools. There's no doubt about that. I think lots of people would agree we're complete fools, but never so much as when the Pelicans get us yet again. Egg on our faces every time we talk about this team.

Let me ask you this about the books, though. If Doc Rivers just went on a media blackout, which I believe we suggested for him to do weeks ago around the trade deadline, but yet he soldiered on here. If he just stopped saying things publicly, do you think that this would be a better situation? Because at least optically, we wouldn't have him calling out the trainers and everybody else and like trying to paper over the mess that they've created there in Milwaukee. Here's the thing. There's a lot of noise around the bucks right now. These losses are horrendous. I don't care who's out of the lineup.

You know, Janus has been missing for some of those games, Dame for some of those games. That's the reality of the NBA season. But when you're playing against teams of this caliber, you should be able to win. And yet, who else are you taking in the East to make it to the conference finals? It's looking more and more as we look at both conferences. There's a lot of reason to have confidence in the Celtics. There's a lot of reason to have confidence in the Nuggets. Everyone else has huge questions, and they're either playing very poorly or they're missing guys from their lineup, or in cases like the Thunder, there's just all the classic youth size, like all of those kinds of burdens of proof that a team like that needs to cross in order to become a real contender.

And so we're at that stage where nobody has really grabbed this thing. There are no like incumbents to bank on other than the Celtics and the Nuggets to at least get to the conference finals. And so the Bucks find themselves in a position where they are disappointing. They give Doc Rivers reason to vent in post-game sessions all the time. They're losing in ways that are genuinely inexplicable. And yet they're probably still going to make the conference finals. So who really cares what Doc's media strategy is at this point? Can I give you the last beacon of hope in the Eastern Conference that could potentially challenge the Boston Celtics?

Who are you envisioning? I think it might be the Sixers. Like, I don't know if you've seen the two games, I believe, with Jewel and B, We're recording this Sunday afternoon, so we haven't seen what happens against Victor Webben Yama. That's prime time viewing for me. But I have to say like Embeddes look healthy enough to at the very least be on the same par

to put this team on the same par with all these teams that we're talking about. Well, especially Embed and Maxi together. You know, that we didn't have Maxi in the first game that Embed came back. He had to do a lot. The rest of the Sixers were scrapping. But those two guys on the floor is a huge difference

in the construction of that starting lineup, which has been one of the best all season, at least in the form it had when everybody was healthy. And then also in the maintenance of a rotation, like having another score like that to stagger throughout these games gives Nick Nurse a lot to work with. They're going to be really good. They're going to be really formidable.

They're kind of the variable why I would be a little tentative if you are the bucks about the idea of, oh, maybe the three isn't so bad. Or maybe even at the two, we're going to get a good matchup. Someone in that two-three range is going to have to play against an opponent of, if not the Sixers caliber, then probably the Heats caliber.

And you don't want to be doing either of those things. I know, too, they don't have De Anthony Mellon healthy at this point. But Kyle Lowry is that guy who is just going to screw up at least one or two playoff games. Like he's going to stick his prodigious caboose in the lane and get like four charges when you least expect it. And all of a sudden the game is tighter than it should be. And then, well, oh, Dwell and Bede who now basically plays like a jump shooting guard is just drilling off the dribble jumpers to win a game five. And so I could see it. I could also see anyone saying, well, we don't know if meat is healthy and even win healthy. We couldn't rely on him in the playoffs.

We couldn't rely on him to be healthy in the playoffs. So they all have to deal with that whole thing in addition to the new issues with Joelle. But I got to say, if we're just talking about confidence in some of these teams, there are one that's like, it's got to be up there. Well, it's easy to be confident in the Sixers in a way that you aren't in the Cavs, that you aren't even in the current state of the Knicks, given the injuries that they have. Getting O.G. Nen and O.B. back, but no Randall is still a huge deal for them. They need someone who can absorb offense and shots and creation the way he hand that can take so much off of Jalen Brunson's plate. It's going to be a lot for Brunson to get that team through

a playoff series, even in a four or five. And again, as you look down the Eastern Conference standings, there's a lot of teams that are very young, who are very dinged up, who have a lot to prove in one way or another. And Joelle and B. does two, and the Sixers do too, but they have a guy who probably would have been the MVP, if not for the way his season took a turn. 14 games between the Celtics and Bucks. One and two. Absurd. Jesus Christ.

All right. Other thing that came up this weekend wanted to get your take on. So we have a new Hall of Fame class, which is, let's be honest, dog shit. So we have at the top line, Vince Carter and Chauncey Billups. And I don't even think you could put, I guess Simone Augustus, if you, You want to include the WMBA legends. Yeah. Makes sense.

I mean, I think you could quibble with Carter and Bullops, but those are the type of guys that tend to get in. And you can make the case that their significance supersedes maybe some of the production, some of the raw numbers and whatnot. Definitely. But then we have Michael Cooper, who was a defender on some very good Lakers teams. Okay.

And then we have Jerry West, who is getting in for the third time. He's in as a player. He's in as a part of an Olympic team, I believe. And now he goes in as an executive. Rob, what the fuck is going on with the Hall of Fame? Why does none of this ever matter, I think, is my big question. It's weird how the bar is so low for some guys.

Michael Cooper is a great example. A good player on a great team, who I would say at no point is better than like the fourth guy on that roster, in that pecking order. And sure, his defense is very important. They can't do what they did without him, but we're not voting in every member of a great team. And then, you know, you take a player like that and you flash across the NBA landscape to, you know, Sean Marion has been a frequent comparison point for a lot of these guys. Wildly accomplished, a champion, an all-star and a star and a focal point in a way that guys like Michael Cooper never were and also has the defensive resume.

of a player like Cooper, if not the decorated reputation and career. Sean Marion is a respected defender who never got his due. And because of that, he's never going to make it into the Hall of Fame. That's dog shit. And yet Michael Cooper is going to waltz in. When was he an elite player in the NBA?

Like a winner, a champion, absolutely a great role player. When was he critical to telling the story of what basketball is? And the answer is never. See, you say Sean Marion isn't going to be a Hall of Famer. But if you just give him a decade and you allow people to just forget exactly who Sean Marion is, and we just think about him in the broadest term, as a very good player, on a lot of important NBA teams, specifically the Seven Seconds or Less era in Phoenix, I wouldn't be surprised, honestly.

And that's my whole problem with the Hall of Fame, because my knee-jerk reaction to any of these new classes is like, oh, sure, this guy get in. But let anyone in. But that's the problem. And I think they've just somehow gotten so far. below that even low bar where I'm like, this is absurd. Like, why are we doing it the way they do? John Hollinger had a very good piece on the athletic

basically pointing out that this is just like a shadowy body presumably run by, you know, some of the main figures of the NBA. And so I don't know why we are at this point just really looking at the process and trying to change this. There's not a lot of incentive to changing it, I think is the answer. I guess. When power brokers are already pulling

the levers of this thing. Like, who is the very interested and very wealthy body or a group of people who's going to start up a rival Hall of Fame that's going to challenge this one? And what would even be the point of that? I think this is probably something we just shouldn't get too worked up about when every, like, if you're a college coach who was coached for 10 to 15 years and was even reasonably successful, guess what? You are a basketball Hall of Famer.

That's just what it's going to be, whether we guys like us want it to be or not. And I think Cooper is a great kind of counterpoint because from our perspective, as podcasters who talk about and think about and live in the NBA world, it's very easy for us to turn our nose up at college. But the Michael Cooper's are getting in, too. And I don't think that's a great idea either. It's more just that the standards overall for the hall right now are so low and so nebulous for certain players. So inscrutable because it is, it's kind of a shadowy cabal that's making all of these decisions. And it's a very amorphous thing as far as like who gets in and who doesn't and why. But the people get in, I have no means of explaining.

Why, you know, with all due respect to Charles Smith, a high school basketball coach who has won a lot of games in Louisiana is now critical to telling the story of the sport. I don't know that I can understand why that would be in a way that NBA players like Sean Marion are not. Listen, Rob wants to turn his nose up at college hoops. I, my friend, would never do such a thing. Never. Of course not. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I almost want to make the connection between the current discourse and conversation

about how people aren't as tuned into the games as they should be to this connection, to this like history where we aren't adding a level of importance to the things that actually matter. Like, it just seems like the history of the game is kind of lost to, and if you're not, like, adding importance to the biggest thing that crystallizes that, the Hall of Fame, I just almost wonder if that becomes frivolous if the whole connection to the past and, like, some of the teams and names on the jerseys as opposed to the back starts to wane. Does that make sense? I think that's a pretty tenuous line to draw because the people who are, so is your issue that you think, because you think, Because the Hall of Fame is losing relevance and meaning because of these sorts of inclusions, it's affecting the way that, say, younger fans coming up are understanding what's important? Or is it the matter of who? Here's my issue.

The people who are voting these names into the Hall of Fame are established people who know the game. Coaches and players and executives and, again, power brokers of the highest order on the NBA landscape are saying, these figures are important to us. And so if they're saying that, I have a hard time pointing the finger at any, like, younger person or person who's coming into basketball for the first time

or trying to understand the history of the game, misunderstanding or not quite getting what the relevance of these people are because if we can't understand, how could we expect them to? So you're saying we have an Oscars problem. We need to diversify the voting body. We first need to identify the voting body.

That's the one. That's the one. And then we need to add, some young blood into the mix so they have a better understanding of what the youths like you and I are looking for. Here's an even better idea. What if we were the voting body? Look, what if we all of a sudden decide whether or not Sean Marion gets in or not? The solution was right in front of us all along, Justin. Give us more power on this podcast. Fanduels putting the ball in your court for the rest of the NBA season because right now new customers get $200 in bonus

bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $200 if your bet wins. So Sunday night, NBA action. I got to say, trust me on this one, but I like the Utah Jazz plus 12 and a half at the Golden State Warriors. I know what you're thinking. Steph Curry isn't expected to play. He's supposed to be resting. I know the Jazz's team hasn't looked particularly good outside of that. But 12 and a half, that's a lot of points to be giving to any NBA team.

And with Steph on the court, the Warriors have been kind of messy. So we're going to take the Jazz. one and then we're just going to hope. With Fandul bet on the NBA with a wide range of bet types, including quick bets, live same game parlays, player props, and more. And the way it is over, North Carolina, FanDuel is officially live in the Tar Heel state. So visit fendul.com slash ringer NBA and make your first bet a layup. FanDuel official sportsbook partner of the NBA.

Must be 21 plus and present in select state's gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required bonus issued as non-witrable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fandal.com. Well, you do have some power when it comes to the awards stuff here. You have a vote for yet again.

How many years have you had a award, you think? Too many. That's too much responsibility, but I'm very thankful for it. It's the kind of responsibility you have to take seriously. And it makes exercises like this fun when you know that your vote actually does count. And in your case, you know, you could sway my vote today. You can move the needle on on who I have at third or fourth on my MVP ballot or whatever. My vote, unfortunately, does not count except to you, perhaps. Always. And maybe the listeners, still waiting for that

email from the NBA, just being like, you are now one of the voting elite. I had one one year. It happened to be the Russ year, unfortunately. You must have made some very bad choices. All right, why don't we start here with most valuable player? Sure. Who do you got? I think it's Nicole Yokic. Do you have any vote against that? I do not.

I have Yokic number one with a bullet. Most dominant player in the league. The team has been incredible. The one thing I actually think is different this year as opposed to last year is he's had the finishing kick that I think people would have liked to see from him. that ultimately Embedd had and made sure that he had. And Yogic did not. You could argue that Yokic just turned it down, down the stretch because they were so high in the Western Conference standings that he didn't really need to. Also, Yokic doesn't give a shit about these things. And I do

think while that's fine for him, if that's his personal decision, I think that matters in a horse race and a political race like the MVP. This year, he's had those moments. He's had what they call Heisman moments in college football where he tore apart the self-examination. Celtics and had the crucial play to win the game in that one. And then games against like the cavaliers where he's just slicing and dicing teams. He's on another level. Jamal Murray is out. Oops, all of a sudden I got to score 40.

I guess so. Even the Victor Webbenyama game, which we talked about on Wednesday, like these are all just clear cut moments you can point to at the end of the season where it's like, if you had any doubts, you shouldn't because this is the guy. Yeah. And for that, honestly, we might need to thank the thunder and the timber wolves for applying pressure in the standings the way that they have. because you're right.

The Nuggets earn a position as defending champions with Nicole Yokic proven, everything that a player in his station would need to prove at this point in his career. They could just coast out the end of any other regular season. But I think the standings do matter to them. I think the prospect in particular of the Western Conference final

against one of those two other teams or a second round series against one of those two other teams, depending on how the standings shake out, you want Humcourt advantage. And if you're Denver in particular with the altitude benefit of playing, there, you want that home court advantage. And so those things matter in a way that has

spurred Nicola Yokic on and really, I think, helped him separate not just our understanding that he's the best player in the league, because that's been true for a while now, but what he's been able to produce on the court and the context and the value he's given to this regular season performance. Yeah, so I didn't really have

much difficulty with Yokic. Was it even much of a conversation? You have to think about it and you kick the tires on, I would say, top four serious candidates. There's a clear demarcation point after four, but the more I looked into it, the more it felt like there's a clear demarcation point after one. I see it as kind of one. Two and three are very close to me. And then four is worthy of consideration, but also kind of a tier below those guys. Yeah. And now this would make Yokic three of the past four. Yeah, putting him in absolutely elite categories. I will say, and I will own up to the fact that I was one of the few people,

probably around December of last year being like, are we sure we want to put this guy in that sort of territory? Justin, we know you were among those people. We have recorded evidence. I haven't reviewed the tape, so we'll see. I've completely come around on that. I mean, I think the finals should clarify that this is one of those guys. He's the dominant player of his era,

getting seemingly more dominant by the year. If you're still making this case, which I have seen of late, something's up. Like, you're clearly focused on something other than the production and the performance here because Yokic is that guy. And it's not just us in the media saying this. It's after guys play him, it's other guys being like, we don't want to face Denver. It's just like completely widespread where I think everybody in the basketball community has agreed

that this is the best player in the league. Yeah, there's an understanding among, you know, the most athletic and strongest bigs in the league, the most brilliant playmakers in the league, the coaches of the league, and all of Yokic's ostensible rivals, that he is this kind of player, that he's this kind of all-time talent, worthy of not just a couple of MVPs,

but potentially even more of them starting with this season. It's a huge thing, but when we think about, and as we go through these exercises, of what are the skill sets and what are the contributions that are most valuable on a basketball court? Shot creation and late-game shot creation

are among the highest that we talk about and value when we think about superstar players and what they bring to the game. And he's the best at both of those things. The fact that he's not just a 47-minute workhorse who can take you to being one of the most efficient offenses in basketball, but also the guy you go to down the stretch because no one can stop him from getting to the rim and crunch time and just like power posting his way all the way there. I don't know how a guy like that, in addition to everything he brings to the table as a playmaker

and as a rebounder, wouldn't be the MVP of the league. So two, three on the ballot is really interesting to me because I agree with you that there is a top four, clear cut. But I would say two and three to me has to be one or of two guys. I'm curious where you netted out at two. I ended up Luca Donchich at two. And this is probably the biggest movement for me over the back half of the season. And some of it is the way that the Mavericks have performed,

but a lot of it's the way that Lucas performed, where he has hit another level and he's hit another gear. and you don't want the recency of that to color too much of your overall analysis with something like MVP, the whole season matters, including the games that the Mavericks were losing because they were short-handed, including games the Mavericks were losing

because Luca's defensive performance wasn't up to snuff, or he wasn't getting back in transition, or he was complaining to referees too much. Those are all very real things. But I think he's overtaken Shea a little bit for a couple of reasons. One being, if we're looking at who shoulders the most responsibility for their teams,

Luca in terms of usage, in terms of creative responsibility, is just at the top of the league in that regard. He does a ton for the Mavs. And the balance of that team's performance has tilted to the point where, oh, now you have to validate that sort of heavy lifting. If you want to make the argument that Luca's usage is a detriment in some ways, that it limits the Mavs, and certainly when they lose, those critics come out. Oh, they'll never win a championship playing this way. They'll never go anywhere if Luke is doing this much. if you're going to make that argument, you have to make the corresponding argument when they win,

which is he is the guy getting this done. And his teammates have improved, and they made improvements at the trade deadline to shore up their defense, to shore up the supporting cast. They've gotten meaningfully healthier. It cannot be said enough over the course of this season. But in terms of what you could reasonably expect

one basketball player to do on the floor, he's just about maximizing all of it. And that's a player who, to me, can edge out even someone who's been as exceptional as She has been. I think we can get lost in the forest when it comes to the, oh, star player needs more help sort of discussion. But I do think this is one of the cases where that was absolutely true. And that's borne out after the deadline, after they made those moves.

I believe the Nuggets have the best record since the trade deadline. I think the Mavs and the Lakers are tied for second. The Mavs have just been a rocket ship. As soon as they've gotten enough adequate rotation players around Luca Dantzich, and it just really fuels the general belief you have about him, where it's like if you give him enough, he's going to be brilliant. I do think right now, so he's leading the league in 33.8 points per game, 9.8.

Assess, 9.2 rebounds. His numbers since the deadline aren't that much different is 3310 and 10, slightly better, slightly better efficiency. The fact that he isn't changing much more, but the team is better, I think is pretty telling that like he's probably hit the maximum in terms of how much he could do. As long as he has other guys around him, this team is going to take off.

and they have to the point where they're now, I believe, fifth in the Western Conference as we're recording this. And that matters. Like if Luca was and the Mavs were in seventh and eighth fighting for the play-in, I probably wouldn't have bolted him above Shea, but the fact that they are, I think, means a lot. And this is kind of a fuzzy criterion for thinking about this, but as you're comparing Luca and Shea,

people have been trying to slow down the thunder all season and to challenge them and to beat them and to solve the way they play. But Luca, there's like a philosophical question that surrounds him of how, how do you stop this guy? And we've seen extreme cases on from all angles, you know, extreme double and triple teams,

dedicating tons of bodies to him to try to challenge him to make incredibly difficult passes, and he does. We've seen efforts to isolate him one on one and force him to put up 50 to beat you. And guess what? He will and then some. But the nature of that kind of broad philosophical conversation around a player to me signifies that the whole sport

is sort of reckoning with what he is and how much he can do. in ways that for as good as Shea is, we don't really talk about him that way. We don't talk about trying to solve Shea that way because he is an incredible one-on-one creator and he's a great team player. Like his willingness to play off the ball

is part of what makes the Thunder so good. But Luca's ability to dominate on the ball is something that almost no one else in the sport can do, if anyone. And the fact that he's been able to go as far with it as he has. And I think if anything this season, his passing and his playmaking in terms of pinpoint precision this year

has really leveled up. If you look at where the passes are going, not just in terms of where on the court and which shooters he's finding, but where they are catching the ball, no one can do that. And the fact that he's doing it over two and three bodies in a lot of cases,

that is an MVP-worthy case. And in any other season where a guy like Nicola Yokic weren't out there, I think we'd be talking very seriously about Luca winning this award right now. Yeah, and that's no slight to Shea, Because Shea has also been incredible this season. His consistency has been perhaps the main driving force of the thunders come up this season.

I have him as 30 plus points in 50 of his 71 games. It's just absurd. And I do think while it's said often, it bears repeating, that he's playing primarily with first and second year players. Like, it's a lot of 21-year-old guys. I believe he's only 25 in his own right. but like he is the one who's pretty much orchestrating the success and so on the one hand thunder a better team on the other hand just like has been able to galvanize a young up and coming team and pretty much paper over the fact that they just aren't shouldn't be where they are right now yeah i think there's a commonality among yoke just a little different because he is a pick his spots kind of superstar when everybody is healthy but luka and And Shay, and I assume we have Janus as our consensus number four, those are three guys who do not stop.

They are just relentless in the ways that they attack you in ways that other superstars are not. Other superstars can play back or they do have off games or they do have off stretches or they kind of tune out of games sometimes. But the constant pressure that all three of those guys put on you is part of what makes them so remarkable. And I think Shay is a great example of that in terms of what he can do in one-on-one creation, what he can do in terms of taking swing passes and attacking, you do have to be conscious of him all the time.

And you do have to put your best defenders on him all the time in order to even hope of smothering the sort of huge scoring performances he can put up. The fact that he is able to be a 30-point score so consistently, even in a league where scoring has boomed. No one else is doing that. Like no one else is attacking in quite the same way that he does and putting the pressure not just on the rim, but in the intermediate spaces.

He's such a good pull-up shooter. He's such a good floater shooter. He's so dangerous at this point from every level in a way that demands that you take him seriously every second he's on the court. Did you consider putting Janus higher than third or excuse me, fourth? I did. And he has a defensive case that none of these other guys have. And that's a meaningful swing skill. And that's a thing that I think will come up with Shea, especially as voters and other media members parse two and three.

You know, Shea is a better defender than Luca, I would say. I would also say his defense is overstated somewhat by the fact that he leads the league in steals. He does gamble. He does play a little loose there. He's not the best positional defender. He's good, and he's certainly part of a really good defensive ecosystem. But I don't think Shea is a great defender.

I just think he's a little bit better and more consistent than Luca. And I think Janus is significantly better than Shea. So that is kind of where the separation is. If you want to make the case for Janus as two or three on this ballot, but he's an incredible score at ridiculous efficiency. The fact that Yonis is putting up 30 plus on 60% shooting, like what are we even talking about as far as a big, in any era of the league being able to do something like that,

what he's able to do in transition and the pressure he puts on you there and also being an all-defense-level contributor, that's a strong case. This is the thing about the MVP race, and I'm sure we'll do with all NBA next podcast too. But it's hard to separate these guys without pulling somebody down on the grounds of them

just not quite being as good as someone else. And I have a hard time making a case against Janus other than the fact that the bucks overall have been kind of disappointing. Yeah, I think that's the case. I don't have a hard time. It's not really his fault. Well, how much do you fault Janus

for potentially applying pressure to the organization to swing the dame trade which put them in the position that they're in now? Now he's not in charge of the specifics of that trade the reporting suggests that they even, like, didn't tell him that they were going to do so in order to so he wouldn't be held accountable with Drew Holiday, one of his favorite teammates. On the other hand, he was very vocal over the offseason that something needed to happen. He didn't want to stay long term if they weren't going to put the right team around him. And so here comes Dame and maybe long term they're in a better position. But right now they're kind of in disarray in large part because Dame gutted the little depth that they have. I don't blame Janus for his team trading for Damian Lillard.

I don't blame anyone for trading for Damian Lillard. Dame is awesome. And the fact that this hasn't quite worked out as well as I'm sure people internally with the Bucks would have hoped. I don't see that as a reason to not vote Janus for MVP. The reason to not vote Janus for MVP is Nicola Yokic. That's the reason. Anything else feels a little suspect.

Maybe, but at the other hand, you're putting Luca and Shea above him. Yeah. So clearly, like, there's some differentiation between as opposed to just individual performance. And it is team performance. And Janus's preferences and decisions directly affected the team's performance. And so, like, it is a little bit of a ball of yarn there. But, like, if we're not just being beholden to the pure objective data on the page,

I do wonder if, like, that is kind of a thing here. Because the reason why the bucks aren't better is in part because of Janus. I don't believe that at all. reason the bucks aren't better is because they didn't play transition defense for 40 games. The reason the bucks aren't better is because their management traded like every pick that wasn't nailed down in a series of trades that includes the Damian Liller deal, but also includes the Drew Holiday deal, but also includes the Jay Crowder deal and the Nicola Miratich deal. And like all of these trades spanning a very long period of time, which is what happens to contending

teams when they sustain. If you want to keep contending and keep fighting, you end up trading a lot of picks out the door. And you could argue that the bucks traded too many at times when they shouldn't have. I think that's a perfectly valid thing to make, like an argument to make, but I don't see why it would be an argument to make against Janus. I disagree. And at the very least, like, their standing in the standings is a direct result of why we have him at four. And so if you want to say that's a byproduct of Janus's decision or not, this team isn't as good as some of the other teams that were mentioning here. Some of the superstars are driving some of those results.

And I do think for me at the very least, that's why Yannis is at 4. Well, let's parse this for a second because right now, the Bucks and the Mavs have pretty similar records. Not similar places in the standings because the East is weaker, but similar records. Do you hold Luka responsible for the Mavs trading a ton for Kyrie Irving, for trading a lot for P.J. Washington to ultimately get to the same place that a disappointing Bucks team is in? This is where it gets into the point I was making before about how good Luca has been post-deadline. I do think for me that surge is very important because it suggests when he has the right amount of help, they are able to be beyond what the record shows. So maybe that's a little bit of a funny math situation because I'm really only counting what, like a third of the season and making that the differentiator.

but I do think that's important when he has the right amount of guys he can vault in the standings where it's like I don't know Janice is at the same record in part because he wanted to superstar teaming.

Well, you could make the same argument about the way that the bucks are absolutely dominant when Janice and Brooke and Dame and Chris Middleton are on the floor together and Chris Middleton has missed a lot of the season. So honestly their cases end up in a lot of the same places

despite the fact that Yana and Yonis and Luca are totally different players. Sure. So who do you have fifth year? Because I think this is where it gets very interesting. It does get very interesting. I had a really hard time not picking Jason Tatum for five. Oh, Jason Tatum. Yes. And I say that, you know, it is striking that for a team that's on pace to win 65 games, Boston is not really much of an awards player, almost anywhere. I think there's going to be representatives for all NBA. There's going to be representatives for potentially all defense. you know, Drew Holiday and Derek White are going to get into that mix

in addition to, I'm sure Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum will get all defense consideration in addition to all NBA. But otherwise, there's not really a natural place for any Celtic to be in contention for one of these awards. And I'm not even saying that they should be. But I do think Jason Tatum should be five on the MVP ballot. Like that feels fair to me given how well he's played this season. I'm going to bring up a Celtic later on in this awards conversation,

but I tend to agree with you. a little weird, but I guess that's what the NBA title is for. You know, if your success is dictated by your team results, that's what the title is there for. I mean, I think that's kind of a weird tease by you for Luke Cornett for defensive player of the year, but go off, you know? Hauser. Why not?

Jordan Walsh, all rookie. So I hear you on Tatum. I was very tempted to put Tatum in there. I ultimately did not because I favored Jalen Brunson. I dig it. Because I just think he's been the better individual player. Like you could argue that maybe Tatum has taken the foot off the gas pedal a little bit just in order to work other teammates in there. Porzingis seamless transition, Drew Holiday seamless transition.

I do think you have to give Tatum and to a certain extent, Brown credit for making that all work. But if this is going to be an individual award, Brunson has just been rocket ship this entire time. He's the one still there powering the Knicks to where they are in the standings. 28 points per game, 6.7 assists, 3.6 rebounds. I just think I think I would be fine with any of like, I have four or five players down here listed, but I ultimately went with Brunson just because of the success that he's had. How could you argue against that?

This is the problem with fifth place on the ballot is there's a bunch of guys. And I almost don't want to tease out the honorable mentions too much this week because because AllNBA is now positionless, the MVP ballot and AllNBA are going to look very similar. I think in the grand scheme of things. Interesting. So you think about them the same, Ben. For me, they're the first team, all-N-B-A.

Yeah, for me, they're the same. I know some voters think about them differently, and it depends on how you parse the literal definition of the word value. To me, value means, like, what did you do on the court this season? And that looks a lot like all-N-B-A. So Brunson is a player, interestingly, in that light,

who if you do see value as a different metric than all-N-B-A, I could see voters prioritizing Brunson. I don't think many of those same people, and you can tell me if you're among this group, I don't know that you would make the argument that Jalen Brunson is a better player than Jason Tatum, but that he is more valuable to his team

because of the weight he carries as essentially the sole shot creator on the floor for a vast majority of the season. Yes. I would, and I am making that argument. Well, I am making the argument that Jason Tatum, despite not being an A-plus level player in really any one area of the game, is so comprehensively very good

that he is what allows the Celtics to be what they are. And I want to reward winning, I don't want to over-prioritize it, I want to give everyone a fair shake here in terms of what their situation and their context looks like. But Jason Tatum takes a fairly difficult, balanced team context,

and is definitively the best player among all those very talented players, has had his, taking his lumps in crunch time in fourth quarters, to be sure, but his ability to not just score, but move the ball, but be an excellent perimeter defender and a very versatile perimeter defender,

gives him a feather in his cap that guys like Brunson don't have. While Brunson and Luca in particular are being hidden away defensively, Tatum has better defenders on his team who take tough assignments, but he's a great help defender. And he's a great on-ball defender when the situation and the matchup calls for it. So those things matter to me in the same way that Jalen Brunson carrying so much playmaking responsibility does. So you're making the case that he's the better two-way player.

He's definitely the better two-way play. Is there an argument? No. That's why he's the better player. Because he's the better two-way player. There you go. I'm with it. I can totally see the argument for him.

Still can't score in crunch time. Good God. If he could just do that, he might even be like two or three on this list, but we'll see in the playoffs. He will not be winning clutch player of the year, but he should be fifth on the MVP ballot. I can get behind that.

What do you want to do next? rookie of the year maybe? Sure. I mean, do you remember when this was a race? I do. Yeah, when was that? Like November? It's been a while.

I remember kicking myself at some point by not going with Chet because I thought he might have the inside edge because he was older and the Thunder would have been a better team. That feels like 10 years ago. Yeah. At this point, because this is Wembe with a bullet.

Wembe with a bullet. Chet at number two with a bullet. I think the only place it gets interesting is who you want to put at number three, which feels like another one of these bottleneck points at the end of one of these respective ballots. So can I just give credence to Wemby's finishing kick to the season here? Because I have to say, one of the most fascinating ends to a season I think I've ever seen, in part because like what sort of circumstances align so that a player is playing his best

at the end of a regular season? You know, by at this point, we're seeing guys resting all of the league. If you're good and if you're bad, you're probably not even playing. Let's be honest. Especially a rookie. It's very unusual for a rookie to pick up with a big kick at the end of the season. Most of them either run into the wall or the guys who do surge late are usually the kinds of players who weren't doing a ton early. So their minutes have been kept low or the responsibilities have been kept low.

Wimby's been doing a ton all season. It just like all coalesced in a way because of his circumstances and because of him improving over the course of the year. He's just been jumping off the screen and off the court at every opportunity that you have to see him. he's also evolving in real time to now not even having like more than two credible starting lineup teammates and so he's just getting so much more defensive attention or attention from the defense than he was previously and to watch him now pick apart teams with the pass the passing is nuts it's nuts incredible he's getting doubles from the pelicans like he was on friday night and the reeds are just so natural to just his playing style. Like he's already looking like Yokic, dare I say, at the top of the key, just diming cutters up when the help defender comes to blitz him.

And it's kind of unbelievable. Over the past five games, Rob, he's averaging seven assists per game. It's just like he's just finding new elements of his game to be incredible at. Yeah. And we love to see it, especially with a player like him,

teams are going to want to put him in crowds just because they don't have a lot of other options. And they're going to want to attack, in particular his ball security and his dribble. They're going to want to meet him higher on the floor to prevent him from getting to his spots. And so the more that other spurs are cutting on that backline and the more that he's finding him,

the more unstoppable he's going to feel. And that's really what the process of this season has been for Wembe, where going from playing the four to playing the five, going from not having a traditional point guard alongside him, to now having one who can get the offense going, get him into comfortable spots. Those things have been meaningful. but over the course of the whole season,

he's gone from a curiosity and a guy who teams don't quite know what to do with just because his physical dimensions are so extreme and so new to the landscape of the league, to somebody who's just like, okay, now we have to deal with the fact that not only is this different, but it's different and effective. It's different, and he's getting to really easy shots.

He's getting more lobs. He's blocking our best players four and five and six times a game. The way that he's using all of his physical tools feels completely different from the beginning of the season when understandably as a young player coming into a brand new league he had to get a sense of the personnel and get a sense of the strategy and get a sense of what

the spacing of the NBA game is and he is acclimated to it about as fast as a young player can acclimate to it to the point that I know we go through this every time we have to do a new update in our rankings at the ringer.com how high could this guy possibly go and how high God forbid could he be by the beginning

of next season if he's putting it a whole work, a whole summer of work. Spoiler alert. Pretty damn high. Very high. Very high. We got a list coming this week. So look out for that on the ringer.com. Unfortunately, Chet goes to two because in any other year, he would be number one very clearly. So, so good. So I looked this up. So the NBA.com data goes back to 96, 97 season.

Check currently is plus 4.8 and plus minus, which is already incredibly high. because rookies rarely are a plus, let alone in the four to five range. That is tied for second in this span for plus minus. Can you tell me the one other rookie who is higher? Ben Simmons? Very close. He was tied with Ben Simmons. That's an awesome guess.

Who would the other one be? I'm trying to think, I mean, Mitchell was very good. It wasn't the same. Mitchell was also very good. Yes, 4.5. I think way. Back. It's got to be, how far back are we talking?

So it goes back to 96, 97. It's pretty close. Carmelo Anthony? Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan. I should have known plus minus monster that he is. 5.2. The other guy in the fours that I found was Andre Carolenko.

Love it. 4.2. And the one thing between all these guys that we've mentioned, 21 years old or above. So apparently it pays to be older. Yes. Also a list of guys, though, as we're talking about Victor Weapon Yama, who are about to have a lot of their record shattered. You know, Tim Duncan is a far, a long way away in terms of winning. But Andre Kirillenko, all those five by fives you got, I'm sorry, man. You're about to be just like completely obliterated from the record books. And at the pace that Victor is operating, he's going to be passing even Spurs Legends sooner than later. You know, like I think we're seeing some of the record book stuff start to turn over with players like Luca. Luca is a great example. There were a lot of long, tenured maps. Mavericks, and he's already catching a lot of them in things like made three-pointers, for example. Victor's going to be catching a lot of really good players if he continues on anything resembling

this pace. And he's going to be catching a lot of really good players in the NBA record books if he continues on this pace. Kerolenko, ahead of his time in a lot of regards. One of the greats. Just a total NBA weirdo. We have no choice but to stand him. Look that one up, kids, if you don't know what we're talking about. third on the ballot, I have Brandon Miller. I think that's the move. Who do you have?

I think that's the move. It's not Scoot Henderson. It's not Scoot. But it could have been Jaime Hawkes. It could have been Keante George. I think if Trace Jackson Davis had been playing more since the start of the season, maybe it could have been him in this spot. But Brandon Miller feels like the pick, both in terms of production,

which is always a bit of a precarious thing to measure for rookies, especially ones on losing teams. But for me, it's less about how many points. did he average or is he averaging and more about how is he going about doing it? What kind of role is he playing? And from day one, he's been super willing to plug in as a system player

as a guy who's not dominating the ball as a member of a team. And it's not really his fault that that team isn't very good and that the players around him haven't really carried their end of the bargain. But Brandon Miller has played very good defense for a rookie.

I'm really impressed and encouraged by what he could ultimately be on that end of the floor. And that's ultimately going to be where he's less impressive because what he's going to be as a shotmaker and in particular as an off-ball shooter, I think that's the real promise of his career at this point.

That's where we're all looking and saying, this guy has all of the physical tools and the touch and the acumen to be a very special player. And he's going to be third on this list because Victor Webb & Yama looks like a future all-time great. Chet is going to be, he's already a game-changing two-way player for one of the best teams in the league.

And Brandon Miller is still coming along and his arc is going to be a little bit longer, but it's off to a great start. Yeah. Potentially historic class. It was already going to be historic because Wembe is in the mix here. Ann Chet is in the mix here. But some of these other guys really starting to show promise here.

Miller having a nice little finishing kick as we're talking about starts and finishes, whereas Hock has probably hit the rookie wall about a month or two ago. And so I agree with you. Miller is deserving of number three. Defensive player of the year, kind of the ancillary conversation to this one or the sister conversation. I feel like you have Gobert. I do have Gobert. I feel like you don't.

no, I have Gobert. Oh, we got you. We got him. It's tough because I think now Wemby might be the better defensive player. Like currently this second, he is the better defensive player, but Gobert has had the better defensive season throughout the course of the season. And you were kind of alluding to it earlier when you were talking about Wembe. It did take a month or two or three for Wemey to hit this version of the player receiving.

seeing now in April. I don't know if he was as dominant defensively, despite some of the block totals and whatnot, and just warping of the court in just the way that his limbs just completely changed the game of basketball, or at least like having full control over that in the way that he is now. And so for that reason, despite one of the best block rates in NBA history as a rookie, I'm going to go with Gobert, best defender on the best defense in the NBA. and I don't feel that bad about it, to be honest. Nor should you. He's had an amazing season and the wolves have had an amazing defensive season.

I think what separates them from me is Gobert is the kind of defender right now. You can hang a whole team on. You can hang a whole organization around the consistency of his defense. Like the rim protection numbers are still off the charts with him. He still does a great job not just of blocking shots, but altering them, of deterring them. In the same way that we talk about Victor doing that. Only he's at a normal freakish height, you know, as a seven footer. He's only by normal standards, but his positional defense is so good and so clean and so

reliable that other teammates know exactly where he's going to be and exactly how to funnel their guys into him even still. And the caliber defender he's playing with in Minnesota, especially now, is definitely better than what it was during his peak in Utah. And so there's some shift in responsibility there. There's some shift in credit there, as we love, you know, the way guys, like Jaden McDaniels defend. We love even what a guy like Mike Conley can do defensively or Nikiel Alexander Walker.

Like guys, Carl Towns when he was healthy, like those are just good defenders to say nothing of the way than Anthony Edwards is just bulldogging guys when he finds the motivation to do it. But it all works because Gobert is there on that backline. And the fact that they have been the front running best defense in the league all season long and everyone knows it and they go into those games trying to figure out how do we score on these guys and they still can't do it. to me it's so different than going into a game against the Spurs that every team in the league expects to win.

And they do get caught off guard and they do get their shots blocked. It's a real thing. Look, you go into an... No one's caught off guard anymore. You go into an NBA locker room before a game against the Spurs or against the Pistons

or against the Hornets. It's a very different atmosphere than when they play a team like the Wolves. It's a very different atmosphere. There's a looseness to the idea of playing bad teams. And the Spurs are still a bad team, despite how great Victor has been, that is materially different than, oh, this is the number one defense in the league and a team that we have to get ready against to play in the playoffs if we're in the West.

There's a difference in seriousness, in gameplay and discipline, in preparation that go into matchups like that, the Spurs just don't have to deal with yet. And that's why we see our friends, the Pelicans, going in there and dropping games that they shouldn't that are critical to their standings. It's just like, I don't necessarily disagree with you about the preparation thing. And yet, I do find that's where Wembe surprises everybody. Maybe that's why everybody comes away from playing Wembe and it's like, oh, my God, this guy's going to win MVP next year.

That's a real thing, for sure. It just completely changes the game in a way that Gobert is just a master defensively of the way the game is typically defended. Wembe just breaks it apart and just completely alters angles, passes the brown runaway on the breakaway layup to me.

I will never forget that play because that's not the type of thing that Gobert is going to do. But having said that, I do think consistency-wise, Gobert, it just has a complete body of work. Yeah. And the wolves in total

have a complete body of work. It would be nice if Wembe had the sort of pit bull perimeter defense that Gober enjoys, maybe that would make a difference, but it's also tough to really tease that apart at this point. What's crazy is like, these guys are going to be teammates this summer in the Olympics. That's going to be unbelievable. It's going to be awesome to see. And it's going to be very interesting to see in critical

situations. Now, there is a hierarchy to these national teams in particular, and it's usually age-determined. But if you had to pick and choose one of those guys to be on the floor at a tough matchup, how do you pick and choose between two of the best defensive players and especially one who is established in a way that is reliable, but also somewhat understandable to opponents, versus as we're saying, like, Victor Webbenyama is confounding people all the time. And if you're looking at critical moments

in must-win games, sometimes you do want the confounding element. Sometimes you do want the wild card, and Victor absolutely has that in his pocket right now. You don't think they're going to play together? I mean, I'm sure they will for the vast majority of those minutes. But I'm saying if there were a small ball matchup that's very tough, like this is the thing about Victor.

On the perimeter, he's not great right now. Like he still struggles a little bit. And he does make people rush because even if they do get past him, they have to get their shot up so quickly and it's such an unusual angle and timing that it throws them off in doing it. So that's a real thing. But I actually think Gobert, for all of his, what his reputation might tell you,

has been a better perimeter defender than Victor's been this year, has been a little bit more competitive out there. That's what I've seen. Who do you have at three? So I actually have Victor three. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I actually have Victor at three.

For me, BAM is the number two guy. Okay. I have BAM at three. I honestly, like, I felt more confident about BAM at two. And for me, it was Victor at three or AD at three. That was kind of my battleground. I think BAM has been... You hate young people.

I don't hate young people. I'm putting in number three on defensive player of the year. Like, this never happens. What are you talking about? We won't dredge up your top 100. ballots, which consistently suppress one victory Webbenyama, but no, please continue. I simply want the young people to prove it. And Victor has proven it in a way that we'll put him on this ballot.

But Bam, to me, he's the whole package defensively. He is as good on the perimeter as a big can be, as good in switch situations as a big can be, incredible in zones to a degree that very few bigs are right now. Like his mastery of that space and how to maneuver a zone defense, second to none. And if you want him to play more traditional rim protection, he's great at it too. And so that versatility unlocks so much for Miami, obviously. And it's unlocked so much for them in a season where everyone else has been hurt. Everyone else has missed considerable games.

And yet it's all papered together because Bam is awesome at his job. And he's awesome in ways that very few bigs are. Yeah. So I had him three, longless, Anthony Davis, Herb Jones. I would imagine that's for Seamall defense right there. Maybe. I think it's like there's only a couple of perimeter players who are, even going to have a chance in, again, a positionless, all defensive team, I suspect is going to

be a lot of bigs who are going to have a reasonable case for it. Those guys do have a good argument. I think what's interesting this year is between the positionless roster for all defense and the new eligibility requirements of having to play 65 games, there's going to be a lot of really good defenders who just are not eligible to be all defense this season. A couple of those names just to kind of forecast our future pod. O.G. and Anobi, Joelle and B, Dremont Green, Jonathan Isaac, Evan Mobley, Jimmy Butler, Marcus Smart, Marks, Smart, are going to make an all defensive team. And some of them, like Marcus Smart hasn't played enough to make an all defensive team, but he's the kind of guy

who, if he were healthy, you would expect to be in the mix for those kinds of accolades and those sorts of awards. This year, even the great defender, like OG has played as well defensively as anybody, but he just hasn't played enough. And so he will not be on an all defensive team. And so I'm thinking about like, okay, who are the perimeter guys like Herb Jones who can even have an argument? And they're going to have to make their argument against guys like Brooke Lopez, for example, who've been really good defensively.

And if it were a two center ballot, would never make it. But if it's a potentially 10 center ballot, they damn well might make it. Well, I'm glad you brought up the 65 game rule because I thought that came up a lot when I was looking at most improved candidates. I had Tyrese Maxi number one. I assume you had him as well. Got to be.

It just went from a regular scoring guard to an All-Star and probably one of the driving forces of one of the most interesting teams in the league. And we should also say another team that when they've had their players has been so good. Like the fact that he's put up

these most improved tight numbers and ascended within the hierarchy of the league while being part of one of the most dominant lineups in basketball and while playing alongside an MVP candidate in Joelle and B that makes it extra impressive to me. This is not just a huge jump in scoring production for a mediocre team.

This is a huge jump in production and a huge jump in winning impact in a way that I certainly did not anticipate for him. So I also considered, but ultimately had to leave off for most improved Christophez Porzingis, 54 games at this point. Alper and Shen Goon just shy of the 65 game mark. Unfortunately, Jalen Johnson, same deal. Yeah. Our guy.

I really had to come up, but unfortunately doesn't make it. Going to make the playoffs somehow and probably. Well, play in. Play in. So I ultimately ended up with Kobe White and number two and Jonathan Kaminga number three. Okay. I think Kobe White is going to be a pretty clear consensus number two. Very deserving.

Has that an incredible season and really put himself in a different class of player. Going from wild card, like what do we even do with this guy kind of guard, like not good enough to entrench himself as a lead guard, but just talented enough you want to keep him around or want to see if he could be a sixth man or whatever it was, like that kind of space he was hovering in going into the season to now being consistently productive, being really reliable, being one of the Bull's best players, helping to keep an offense afloat and a Bull's team to win games that it has no business winning. Very impressed with Kobe White's body of work this season. He's very good. At three, I think Cuminga's case is very complicated.

And I think we should tease this out because I personally did not think he was capable of this kind of season. And it seems pretty clear that Steve Kerr also did not think he was capable of this kind of season. So does that mean that Jonathan Cuminga improved?

Or was I wrong and was Steve Kerr wrong about how good he was in the first place? Did he improve or did he just get the chance to show what he could do? This is the tough part with most improved. Like, I think this also extends to players like Jalen Williams, J-dub, who just got increasingly better as a second-year player. But to me, that was already the trajectory he was on, and he was a high

draft pick. And so don't you expect a high draft pick to keep improving? Yeah. And so do I hold it against him, or do I give it to him? Because he did make a pretty noticeable jump between years one and two. Yes. Whereas Camingo. it feels like you want to give him more credit because he hit a valley there. You want to give him more credit because he was bad for a while. And now he's

exactly. And he was a higher draft pick and probably a much like more Ballyhood sort of prospect than Williams. But here we are saying like he had the very least it faced adversity. And so like there's some like weird nebulous middle ground between comeback player of the year

and most improved where if you're like if you're too good at some point, you don't actually qualify for it. Yeah. I end up with Jaylon Williams. I was not deterred by the second year thing with him. For me, it's a difference of him changing who he was as a player. It's not just that he got a little better at a bunch of different things, although he did do that. He went from being a good complimentary and supplementary part to being one of the most efficient one-on-one creators in basketball.

That's a different thing going from, oh, promising young talent to really a star, a star. star in the league. I don't know that I anticipated that much this quickly for him. The Kuminga thing, yeah, I just have a hard time coming along with that as far as whether he actually improved. And to your point, maybe the reason or the way he improved the most is learning to advocate for himself, learning to go out in the media and say, look, I got to play. My guy, Steve, I got to play. He certainly learned how to speak up a little bit more. There you go. I also consider Jalen Green. Maybe too much. Yeah, maybe too much or too little too late, I think for him maybe a little bit.

Yeah, the numbers, as we talked about on past podcasts, aren't that much different from the past two years. But clearly the past month, he's been just incredible. And for that, I want to put him here. But I went with Kaminga just full season come up. I think that's more important. ultimately it's the third place on Most Improved Player of the Year That's the thing Sixth Man Bullshit Award

Don't care But I have Malik Monk Is Malik Monk I mean most improved Is kind of a bullshit award too Several of these awards We could fire into the Sun And no one would really miss them

But if we're gonna hand out Hardware for Sixth Man of the Year I agree it's Malik Monk He has the output for sure He also has the impact Like Sacramento relied on him In a way that makes they're playing prospects without him,

feel really challenging. Like, how do you accommodate for the absence of a player like that? Someone who comes up for you in huge moments, who is a spark plug score, who I think he has a great mix as far as a six-man candidate goes between doing well,

slotting in with four other starters or three other starters and also slotting in carrying bench lineups. Like, if you can do both of those things, that makes you an actually good bench player. There are plenty of bench players who come in and put up numbers playing with guys who also just like can't do it.

Other non-scores coming off the bench. And so by default, you were going to get up shots. You were going to score points. You were going to be well regarded. Malik Monk does all everything for Sacramento. He is a legitimately important member of their rotation. He just happens to come off the bench. And you could probably say the same about Nas Reid,

who I imagine will come in second on a lot of ballots. But he's been in a similar space and is similarly productive and important for the wolves just happens to be a reserve. Yeah, I have Nasreed and then I have Norm Powell rounding things out. I think you hit the nail with Munk. He's like third, fourth most important player on that team just happens to be relegated to the bench, which kind of in a way crystallizes why this award is so bullshit. The fact that he has to come off the bench for some reason we're rewarding that,

even though he closes in the final five, which means that he's above a six man, but I don't, I don't get it. But Munk is clearly one. While we're talking about why this award is bullshit, right now on my ballot, I have Josh Hart at number three. Oh, I like that. Here's the problem with that.

The Knicks have five games left, and if Josh Hart plays in all five and starts in at least four of those games, he will no longer be eligible for six men of the year because he will have crossed the threshold of starting more than half his games. What incredible drama we have, Justin, going down to the end of the season,

whether Josh Hart will be eligible to be third place on the sixth man of the year ballot. If he is, I would like to put him there. But it's looking like he will start those games. The Knicks have been starting him with and without and now with OG and Anobie. So he probably won't be eligible, but he should be. Jesus Christ, this award is a question.

The only thing it has in its benefit is that it's just not the clutch player of the year, which I refuse to talk about. You're not even going to acknowledge it. No. No, did you put something together for that? I mean, I think Demar de Rosen is going to win and should win. Sure, why not?

All right, last one here then. Coach of the year. This is where I bring back the Celtics. I have Joe Missoula number one. At number one. Yeah. Wow. Okay, make the case.

Best coach, best team. Sure. And I think this is one where it typically defaults to the most surprising team. And that's why you're seeing Mark Degnell. I think I said that right. It's pretty close by you. By your standards, that was a home run. I'll take 80%.

Former Yukon along. Fellow. Former Yukon along. Let's go, baby. And then I have Chris Finch at three. But I think those two, I think, will probably get the majority of the votes. I tend to think that's because there was such a come-up and we tend to reward the coach for the team that had the most improvement. I mean, the Celtics are running away with the best record in the regular season.

They're clearly the best team in the league right now. In the regular season, we could talk about all the problems in the playoffs and what they've had in crunch time. But like, it clearly hasn't affected the regular season product that much. And so for that reason, I think he's clear number one for me. See, I was trying to find space on my ballot and could not ultimately. So I would say for me, he's like the number four guy. But here's the thing about Missoula's job this season. not only have the Celtic been exactly as good as you said,

the most dominant team of the regular season, running away with the Eastern Conference. They've done it in a drama-free way, and they've done it in a way where he uses the talent and the depth of that roster really creatively. The Celtics could just roll out their default lineup and their default strategy every game,

and they would be very successful in the regular season. But he does weird shit all the time, and it's exactly what you want to see from a coach that has that much talent at their disposal. There are coaches all across the league that would love the problems, I say in air quotes, of the Boston Celtics, of like trying to make all this talent work and trying to figure out how to best use

some really interesting positionally versatile players. But not many of them have that luxury, and the Missoula does, and honestly has like the stones to just move Drew Holiday around the court, to move Chrisapsworses around the court, to throw weird defensive matchups out there, just to see what another team might do

and how they might respond to that. I think that's great regular season coaching for a coach that does not have to do those things to preserve his job, but he's doing it because it's going to help Boston in the playoffs. I agree. This looks like a Missoula team, unlike last year. And I think you could credit maybe Brad Stevens

for applying the right players in order for him to have the opportunity to do so. They moved out a lot of the competing voices, which seemed to be a pretty big problem as we're learning later on a year later, where Grant Williams is no longer there, Marks Smart is no longer there, and all of a sudden everything just kind of gets along a little bit better, but you're right. Like, Missoula is creative in very interesting ways.

He's obviously not to the level of an air expulsure, but like kind of from that class where he's clearly a grinder who's looking for little edges and little wrinkles to exploit. And I think that gets overlooked a lot because you look at the talent on paper with the Celtics, but clearly he's been able to optimize these guys and not deal. with any sort of the problems with, like you're saying, Drew Holiday being fifth on the pecking order. It's totally fine. After coming over from winning a title with the books,

Christopps Porzingis has been empowered in ways that really haven't disrupted what Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum's have done. And so I think that deserves a lot of credit, and that's why I have them number one. I think it's a great coaching job. And the only thing right now, I mean, there's many things separating him from someone like Eric Spolster, but I think the comparison is valid.

What separates them is right now, Missoula is a little bit more of a mad scientist. He is a little bit more of throw stuff at the wall and see what works kind of coach. And that's fine. I don't have anything wrong with that. Eric Spolster has that instinct, but he also has an impeccable sense of the moment. It's like, when exactly is the time to throw out the weird lineup? When exactly is the time to throw the defensive curveball? When you have both of those things, you turn into Spow, one of the most successful coaches in the history of the league and one of the most feared coaches right now in terms of who you wouldn't want to see in a playoff series.

Missoula isn't quite there yet, but he has the tools to get there, and he has the creativity to get there. I'm anxious to see what he does in this postseason run. For me, though, same type. Yes. Not the same level. Yes, same type of a similar school,

similar style in certain ways. He has to grow up as a coach a little bit, as everyone does. I think for me, coach of the year is Mark Dagnall, and it's not just surprising success. I think one of the hardest things you can do is coach a team on the come-up, a young team on the rise

in a way where whatever flaws you see in the thunder, they don't come from ego or vanity or anything even remotely like that. You may look at that roster and say, are they going to be able to rebound and defend and they're going to be able to match up size-wise with Nicole Yokic and the teams they're going to have to beat to get to the finals, all perfectly valid.

That team plays hard, and they play the right way, and they play consistently within their values every single freaking game. Very hard thing to get a bunch of young players to do. And yet it's not even really a question in OKC. And that I give Dagnol a ton of credit for. Play the right way. Those Heartland fans are just up in arms about that. I hope their hard screw three sizes as soon as we said that. I agree. I also think they have something going, just kind of elevating him through the pipeline of their developmental system. Not only are the

Thunder players doing that, but also the coaches are doing that now. So clearly, there's something going on there just institutionally. But I had Finch at three, I had Dagnol at two. So who do you have at two? Yeah, I also have Finch at three. And I think he's, you know, he's done a great job organizing, as we've said, the best defense in the league.

He's facilitated Aunt Edwards' development. He's organically developed a bench that feels pretty playoff worthy in Minnesota. So I think he's a great person to have on this ballot wherever you want to put him. Two for me is Jamal Mosley, whose honestly biggest problem is that he is a coach of a very young team

that has been wildly successful on defense. Wildly successful in ways that young teams are almost never successful. And yet, the Thunder are also a very young team with a wildly successful defense that also happens to have a top five offense and also happens to be competing for the best seed in their conference.

So if not for the Thunder being a weird fringe case, I think Jamal Mosley might be the coach of the year. Nobody does this with rosters that are this young in terms of getting them to be steady top five defense. of outfits. It just does not happen. That one totally credible, but I would say being so one-sided

is why I probably couldn't put him on the ballot. The personnel to me suggests a defensive team and he deserves a lot of credit for making them as good as they can be. See, does it? Does Paolo Bancaro and Franz Wagner scream top five defense to you? And I say that with respect... I think all the other guys.

I mean, some? Like, Windle Carter Jr. missing a lot of the season. Mo Wagner plugging in and playing really good minutes. Goga Batatei being like the anchor of a good defensive team for a while. Now the one name I have not said, or two names, Jalen Suggs. Two, yeah. Jonathan Isaac, those guys are

terrors on defense. World class. World class defenders. And Suggs, again, not to step too much on our next pod, but I think Suggs is the other perimeter guy who could be first team all defense and deservingly so. Totally. But in terms of overall, the team, super young and super young with players who like,

Cole Anthony is not a lockdown defender. Paulo Bancaro did not come to the magic with a defensive reputation. Franz Wagner, no one is thinking of him as a shutdown defender before they think of his driving game. Like, that's just not who those guys are. And yet, holistically, they've been able to do it. I do think starting with those two pillars goes a very long way. And I know Isaac only plays 15 minutes a game half of the time.

But I do think it's important when he plays. He completely disrupts everything that the other team is doing. Also, I think there's a pretty high floor. for a team that maybe Paolo and Franz aren't textbook defenders, but they have so much size and length across the board, that you're able to do enough with that in order so those other guys start to pop off. And so I think just across the board, the personnel, just the measurables, I think there's a lot to work with there.

And so, yes, it requires strategy and whatever Mosley's doing in order to get them to where they are, but would have liked to see a little bit more creativity on the offensive. side a little bit more, dare I say shooting even, just helping that offense out. Yeah. I mean, that's not Jamal Mosley's fault. I think ultimately, to your point, there is a lot to work with there.

But I think the reason there is, is in part because of those guys being exceptional physical talents, great NBA prospects who came into the league, and some of his Jamal Mosley coaching them to be good defenders. And it's a very hard thing to do, again, with a roster that's this young, that they are here

in pole position to host a playoff series because of that defense. That's exceptional coaching work. I think that's it, unless you have any other deep cut awards you really want to get into. Yeah, that's it. I mean, we only really rattled through this thing.

We only went full ballots on every single major MBA award. That seems like a lot. Okay. Well, if it's not enough, we'll be back on Wednesday where we'll do all NBA and maybe some other stuff. Maybe all defense, maybe all rookie? You ready for all rookie? If we must, I will say I was looking at all rookie.

and the 65 game requirement, I'm assuming it also applies to all rookie. It's quite limiting as far as our rookie guys. So I'm very curious to see who is actually eligible. Really, who doesn't make the team? Because if 65 games are the requirement and you've done anything this season, there's only like five or six guys

who are not going to be all rookie players, maybe. Well, that's a good tease for the next podcast. If you're looking for the answer to that, join us on Wednesday. We'll be back then. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Tucker Tashton.

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