The Ringer NBA Show - Believe It or Not: Early-Season Surprises | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss some of the biggest surprises so far this season and whether they believe the surprise is sustainable or not. They discuss Scottie Barnes's improvement, the Timberwolves defense, Cam Thomas, and more. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Joanna Robinson. Join us every week on the Prestige TV podcast feed is your favorite ringer hosts like Bill Simmons, Van Lathen, Mallory Rubin, Sean Fentasy, Chris Ryan, Julia Lippman, and many more cover the latest episodes of your favorite TV obsessions. From boardrooms to throne rooms to courtside and through the mushroom apocalypse, we'll be here throughout the week breaking it all down. Subscribe to the Prestige TV podcast feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Group chat, I am Justin Verrier.

joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney, and back from his chill mode break, big Waz. Was, you already taking trips to Miami in the middle of the season? No, no, no. I was in Baltimore for a 10-year wedding anniversary gathering. My friend, since I'm, you know, like 14 years old, high school, she got, she was the first one of my friends, realistically, to get married. And shouts to her, her and Antonio, still married, still going strong. and they wanted to throw a 10-year celebration

for the people that was part of the wedding in Baltimore or the Baltimore area where they live. And so, yeah, I went to the live casino for the first time in my life, lost about 100 bucks in Blackjack. That's good. And got to see some lifelong friends that I haven't seen in a while.

And so I had a great time. Shows to Antonio and Michelle for hosting a great, great event. Some true quality time. But what was the celebration chatter around the NBA tournament happening simultaneous? You know, like where people really amped up? Were they watching Nuggets, Mavs on their phones? How plugged in were they to our world?

Let's just say the NBA in-season FAA Cup equivalent is not exactly the World Cup yet. We got a ways to go in terms of cultural relevance and understanding. And so, no, not a lot of in-season tournament chatter. But it's early, Rob. It is. We're building. Again, we're at the ground floor of something great. You got to watch out.

You can't say anything bad about the in-season tournament or your Reddit curating will just absolutely plummet. The in-cells are out for blood and all they care about is the in-season tournament. Oh, boy. You made your first mistake. Is that the thing that's happening on the internet? There are people fiercely defending the tournament? Let's not get into this. For the record, I'm pro tournament.

I think the more we get competitive NBA hooping, the better. And the tournament will go as far as the players decide it should go. And if they take it seriously and play really hard, you know, if we get games like the Minnesota, Boston game level in the tournament, everybody's going to love it and be happy because guys are taking it seriously. Totally agree. More importantly, we got to get Justin off the internet. Like we just got to cut the accent. to your apartment. I've like started blocking certain sites now. I just like it's moth to a flame. I just can't help it. And when you engage like it feels good at first and then you do it. It's that

real like like empty calories snack food sort of thing. Like you sit with it for a while. You're like that was bad. I shouldn't have done that. So does it does it ever feel good at first? The initial like just punch does. Yeah. And then you like then the pain starts to set in. You're like that was not good. Well, next time you feel the temptation, just blast it to the group chat, group chat. You know, let us be your first wave of defense, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, but then I can't yell at people. That's the whole fun of it. I guess. All right, let's just yell at some basketball players instead. Actually, this podcast is going to be absolutely positive because we are truthfully, very positive people who only care about the joy and beauty about the NBA. We are doing, believe it or not,

which is basically just real or not real, for some early NBA surprises. A couple things on the books here. But we have to start, I think, first and foremost, with one Scotty Barnes. I have down here, believe it or not, Scottie Barnes has arrived. And now, I give you right of first refusal. Would you like Rob to take this first and you come in later? Or would you like to have the floor on Scotty?

No, Scotty Barnes has come out the gates smoking hot. There's no two ways about it. he's obviously up to his level of usage and involvement within the Toronto offense. I think it says something about the direction they're trying to take the team from, you know, sort of embracing their championship past and the people who were the pillars of that championship, whether it be Kyle Lowry, whether it be, whether it be Pascal Seaccom, whether it be, you know, whoever Scotty Barnes is now, it's him, right? and they're letting him take control and have stewardship.

And he's rewarding that promotion, essentially. And, you know, his shooting has been red hot to start. Oh, my God. Some skeptics, I might be included in that group, might say unsustainably hot, but it doesn't matter. He's clearly better than he was last season, right? Last season he was so far from, the next Kawhi Leonard,

then, you know, anybody would have expected going into that. But he's better now. And again, particularly on offense. Yeah. The shot is falling. The aggressiveness is, is, is, has been ratcheted up.

And I think his defense has caught up to the reputation, too. That's a thing that, that, you know, a lot of people don't realize. You look at his sort of makeup. He's this fiery guy. Obviously super athletic, stout. There's this, like, expectation that he comes out and he dominates on defense, that hasn't always been the case to

start his career. And I think his play on defense is actually caught up in some ways, right? And so, yeah, there's no denying he's been incredible to start the season. Yeah, I think especially because even though his usage is up, as you said, was like he's just more involved in the offense, he's not hijacking possessions. Like the ball is still swinging to him or he's getting out on the break. And he's just like feasting with all those opportunities, all the fact that clearly Pascal Seaccom has been like de-emphasized in the Toronto offense. And that's a whole separate conversation that's worth getting into on another day.

But as far as the Scotty part of it, like they're not shoehorning him into some kind of like go-to role where he has to do everything. I love that he's still allowed to be like a flow player. And he's shooting the lights out, as you said, which may or may not last. But I think the important thing is even if the percentages come down and wind up. up somewhere in the middle of where he is now, where he's been. The jump he's making in terms of poise and feel, and as you said, like defensive execution on a play-by-play basis, those things are real. Those things are huge.

Those things are substantial star-making jumps, even if he's not this level of three-point shooter all season long. Yeah, the thing that jumps out to me is just the confidence and energy that he's playing with, because around this time last year, there was a real morose vibe to him. And I think if you talk to people around that team, they would agree that there was something just a miss there with him. He was a little bit more diminished in the offense. And I don't know if it's the success with his jump shot. I don't know if it's what Rob is referring to where it feels like he's been more empowered and Seacom has been deemphasized.

But he definitely seems to be playing with more verve than I can remember. He looks more like rookie year, Scotty Barnes with like 10 extra pounds of muscle to go with it. And so like, yeah, he's taking a step back that. against the spurs in order to tie the game, which was like the craziest big ball shot that I could think of. But he's also still doing the typical things we saw for him have success early on in his career where he's just like pounding people in the post and then just dunking over the top of them.

And so it's really the best of Scotty before and the best of this newer version with a little more skill and shooting to him. Yeah, it's rookie year Scotty Barnes if he was hitting 40% of his threes. And that's a totally different player from the version. of Scotty we've seen, who has basically to this point in his career been like a free throw line in score. Like even the longer mid-range stuff hadn't

really been going for him before this season. And so to see him hit those shots at a high level, to hit threes at a high level to not only hit threes but hit, as you said Justin, game tying shots, huge moment shots, ISO stepbacks, Ray Allen, tuck your feet into the corner

kinds of threes off the catch. That confidence level is off the charts. Like, I, if he is playing like that with that kind of empowerment from the coaching staff and his teammates, with that kind of confidence in the fact that he's going to hit and make those shots, I think it changes a lot about who he can be as a player, right? Like that is when we ultimately were kind of sketching out the future for Scotty Barnes and what a lot of people hoped he would be. He had to have this.

He had to have this kind of freedom and leeway and green light and that he's getting it in a way that is not corrosive to team offense. that's really, really promising stuff. So a guy that comes to mind who gets a lot of love on our show is Aaron Gordon, right, who everything that he does, he does at full speed and with an incredible amount of intensity and, you know, understanding the attention to detail on both offense and defense when it comes to time in his cuts and, you know, setting incredible screens. crashing the boards and abusing mismatches. Like he does that stuff with so much verve,

but he damn sure doesn't shoot anywhere close to 40% from three, right? And so if Scotty does all of those things, and he's making the three, that's basically a perennial all-star player. You know, if not, again, the kind of guy who you count on to facilitate all of your efficient offense through, right? Like, you know, if not that, it doesn't matter.

Like to be a version of Aaron Gordon that makes shots too is, hey, man, that's nothing to sneeze at. Even somebody like me who's been a little bit snarky about Scotty Barnes and what he does. Like, if he's going to do this, this is impressive. This is like a very valuable player in our league. Well, especially if that version of Aaron Gordon who makes shots is also like the most intuitive passer on your team. Right. Like that combination puts you in a lot of interesting positions offensively. It makes you incredibly flexible, incredibly versatile in ways that behoove this offense

that the Raptors are trying to run, that so ball movement oriented, sometimes do its detriment. Like they do a lot of spinning their wheels in some of these games in part because they just don't have the spacing to run the kinds of stuff they want to run just yet. But you can see the bones of something that could work here for Toronto, for Scotty, and ultimately feel like their long-term marriage as far as far. is like what this this arrangement can be for the both of them and what he can mean to raptors teams going forward yeah it's a real like if siakum was model t like scotty barns is becoming whatever comes after the

model t i don't actually know about cars big car guy just like a 57 impala or something yeah sure let's let's go like that um but i have to say i am a little skeptical that the two versions could coexist Rob, I'm sure you could help me with the Marvel simile here. It's like two different alternate timelines of a similar type of player that just can't exist in the same space. Why do I have to stand for the MCU? No, I certainly did not. It's just like it's sad sometimes when you're watching Seacom like bust his butt on defense and then kind of saunter into the corner on offense.

And you're right, the possession seemed to be initiated by the point guard like Schrooter and Flynn are getting things going. but the ball ultimately usually finds its way back to Scotty and leaves Seacom kind of just standing there spacing and it's just like, I don't know what the future holds from him. And I think there is a little bit of a trading places thing happening here. I was looking this up. It's eerie how Scotty Barnes' stats this season look like Seacom's stats from last season. And Scotty's stats from last season look a lot like Seacom's for this season. I won't bore you with the details, but it's like, it's eerily similar. I'll tweet them out and you guys can look at them because I'm so big on social media,

so you can look at those. But there really does seem to be like there could be only one here. It's not an accident that we've been talking about the tradeoffs of that offense for years now, right? With not just the two of them, but where does OG fit into that mix as well? Like, Seacum and Scotty Barnes are more playmakers, so they overlap even more so. But just in terms like, how do we get these guys on the floor? How do we put them all in positions to do what they do best?

And the answer is at some level, you can't. Someone is going to have to take a backseat for possessions or another. And if Scotty Barnes is hitting threes at this level, then in theory that would enable you to put the ball in Seacom's hands more, right? Like, Scotty can be more of a spacer. The problem is part of the reason Scotty Barnes is hitting threes at this level is because you're trusting in him and giving him more responsibility. Those two things are linked in such a clear way.

that I think as much as like, I love Pascal Seaccom's game. I just think that with the direction the Raptors are going, he cannot be long for this arrangement. How do you feel about this de-emphasizing coming in a contract year for Seacom? That's...

That sucks. That stinks. Especially after Maasai was kind of bagging him for not like getting with the program. Apparently getting with the program just means sitting in the corner and like letting like your brilliant skill set just be going to waste.

It's like it's sad. I love watching Pascal Seacca when he's optimized. It just doesn't seem like that's in the cards in Toronto anymore. All right. Let's move along. So, but we think is this a believe it or not situation? Oh,

we have to answer the actual question. I think it's a believe it. I think so too. I think there's room for him to tail off a little bit in terms of the shooting numbers and still be a first time all-star this year. You know, like I think he's been that good. It's definitely.

believe it for me because his success isn't just predicating on the jumper falling. He's doing so much more than just a jumper, you know, just in general in history, guys not named Kauai Leonard. And I'm not doing that just because of the Scotty, Toronto, whatever. But literally, Kauai Leonard's shooting jump is unprecedented in the history of the NBA, right? The percentage leaps that he's taken from early on in his career, we've just never seen. So, like, I have a hard time believing he's just another case study in Kauai shooting specifically. But, you know, even if he settles out around 34 percent, that's pretty damn good. That's amazing for, to add that to all the other things that he's providing so far. So, yeah, it's definitely a believe it for me as well.

I also believe, because I'm so optimistic and positive. Look at us. All right, the Timberwolves. Believe it or not, the Timberwolves are a defensive juggernaut. And so, according to Zach Cram in 2020, the best defense in recent NBA history adjusted for the different eras was the 98-99 San Antonio Spurs, who had a 102.9 defensive rating. The Minnesota Timberwolves with Carl Anthony Towns in the front court, the double bigs, 100.7 defensive rating first in the NBA. Rob, is this the best defense we've ever seen in NBA history? Why not? The proof is in the tape, my friend.

I do believe that they are like an out and out, excellent defensive team. Excellent, excellent defensive team. And they were getting there in fairness by the end of last season, right? When they started getting their fuller lineup, getting a full year of Rudy Gobert, like they started rounding into that form.

But not only are they the number, defense right now, they're number one by a pretty wide margin. And they are starting to look like the team that Rudy Gobert allows his teams to be. They keep people in front. They keep people out of the paint. They dominate the defensive glass. Like, you get one shot to score against the Wolves. And that shot might have to be like a sidestepping three against Jaden McDaniels.

Best of luck to everyone involved. But like, they just have good enough defensive personnel and enough familiarity at this point where they can smother, even as we've seen. some of the best teams in the NBA. Some would say the best team in the NBA. Perhaps. That's mothered offensively. But listen, just to bring the listeners behind the curtain a little bit,

you know, we have a slack that sort of keeps a tag, just giving each other different league stuff, whatever. And Justin posts something in the slack about the Boston Celtics scoring 155 points against my beloved Pacers. and he told Isaiah, because we often tell Isaiah he needs to cope with the Celtics, he said some other people might be needing to cope right now, which I understood to be a not-so-veiled shot at myself. But fast forward, man, to this Timberwolves game.

It's the first team that made the Celtics sweat on offense all year. And I'm not saying that as to denigrate what the Celtics donated, the number one offense in the league for a reason to start. It's Minnesota's defense is freaking incredible. And obviously Rudy seems rejuvenated, but in quiet as kept, Carl Towns has been pretty freaking good on defense somehow. That's been crazy. But, man, Jaden McDaniels and Anthony Edwards, when these brothers decide they want to freaking strap somebody up, specifically on ball. And sometimes still, you know, lets people cross his face when he's all.

softball playing defense and he needs to clean that up. But when he has a man in front of him and he's just like, you're not getting past me, and he's using his strength and is in combination with his foot speed. And then you got McDaniels with his length and just anticipation. This is crazy what these two guys can do. And we don't need to get hyperbolic, but it's got some Mike and Scotty vibes to it when it comes to the combination of perimeter defenders. When it's ratcheted at his best.

And again, yes. And it's not as consistent as McDaniels. But McDaniels is, he's all-M-B-A-level with that defense. You know, that Celtics game, man, these guys had incredible one-on-one stops against Brown and Tatum in the biggest moments. This shit is hard to do, bro. Like, the Celtics spread you out. You're on an island against these cats, and they were doing it.

In the biggest moments, like, this is, it's hard for me to not watch what the wolves are doing. and, you know, a glimmer come to my eye because they're playing amazing team in individual defense, bro. Like, it's incredible. Wazel Verclump, just off of some defensive possessions, yeah. Anthony Edwards forces that jump ball and a single tier rolls down,

Wazz is cheap. Well, it's not only the five and one Boston Celtics best point differential in the NBA and potential future NBA champions. It's also the current NBA champion. Denver Nuggett. who I have to say, Nicola Yokic, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, was against the Timberwolves,

was the only time this entire season I've seen him even flustered to the point where, like, they actually lost that game. And it did seem like things were tougher on Yokic. And it just comes down to, like, just the collective length on this team. Like, you have Gobert 7.9 in a wingspan. You have Towns, who's 7.3. You have McDaniels, who's 6.11 and a half. And then in backup, you have Reef,

you have Reed, you have Anderson. It's just like they're able to swarm and crowd in ways that I just don't think teams can. And they do it not only with the starting unit, but they're also incredibly deep with that approach. Yeah, when you start to juxtapose Gobert and McDaniels and, as we said, like dialed in Anthony Edwards and Kyle Anderson and Nikiel Alexander Walker, all these guys you just ran through Justin. Like, that's a straight jacket right there, right? That is, you are not getting past our first line of defense. If you do, Rudy Gobert is there in rotation. Even when he's ostensibly guarding someone like Chris Apzp, Porzengis, right?

Even when he's guarding a stretch guy, he's been able to get into the paint and cut it off. And you can see Minnesota's like priorities of their defense starting to play out in some of that stuff. And like, they're just not going to let you get to the basket. They are going to play true to their size. And they're going to wall that off. And they're going to make it extremely tough for you to score inside. And you can get away with that when you have perimeter defenders like, this. I agree with you,

Waz that McDaniels is, I mean, he was an all-league defender already. I think he's even better than he was last season. I just think we're seeing him level up to that, you know, not to take our Kawhi name checks, you know, into the stratosphere here, but he's

starting to get that Kawhi factor where you honestly, like, just don't want to be dribbling or passing in his vicinity. He has that kind of length. He has that kind of anticipation. And I think we've seen some, like, good restraint from McDaniels too, where he had issues like overfowling earlier in his career. And we're seeing him dial it back without taking anything away from how effective he can be as a defender.

So again, a lot of it too for me is mentality. Why I get excited is when a team thinks or a group of players think that they're going to win on the defense event, not via what they do from cool, long pull-up twos, which and does plenty of, by the way. He has a healthy dosage of that. but understanding that the wins are going to come because they're taking their defensive assignments and matchups seriously. I love the quotes coming out of the Boston game

because, and shout to my man John Krasinski over at the athletic. This is what Aunt Edwards was saying. He was like, he was talking smack, talking about Tatum, he was talking smack at the jump ball at overtime. And I told him, shit, I'm coming again. Luckily, he called me up and tried to ISO me And I'm like, I play defense.

And I got five fouls. And I'm going to play defense. Like, to me, that's the mentality that's got to get you excited. They still have a lot of stuff to figure out on offense. Because Carl Towns has not been able to get off yet. No. But, man, again, Carl Towns has stepped it up in a way that we've just never seen them do consistently. Rudy's feeling rejuvenated.

And again, the two heads of the snake is, this is exciting stuff. I think you pinpoint something really important was, which is like Aunt Edwards' effort with five fouls in that game against the Celtics, when he was by far and away the best offensive thing. Even when I said, one of those regions might have been a foul on Tatum when they got that jump.

But good NBA coaches will tell you the reason they're reluctant to play players in foul trouble is because they get soft, because they get conservative, because they stop playing in ways that are actually effective defensively. It's not that they're worried about them fouling out. They're worried about them not being good on defense. And that Edwards, if anything, was even better when he got four and five fouls,

did not shy away from that moment at all. Like, those are the mentality things with Edwards that people love so much. Yeah, he can be a little over the top. He could announce himself into the all defensive race last season when he was clearly not a night-to-night, all-defense-level player. But you appreciate that he's like willing to put. himself out there like that, that he's inserting himself into those conversations and putting that pressure on himself. Because we've seen in these moments, in high leverage matchups, when he is

fully dialed in, he can be that guy. And if he is that, in addition to everything else Minnesota has going on defensively, man, they're just ferocious. He's shorter Michael Jordan, right? That's what he said? Like, if I had a couple inches, I'd be Michael Jordan. I mean, if Reddit is to believe he's, you know, is son out of wedlock, if you believe the internet. I don't know about that. But I would say I believe this defense with a small little caveat, and that's Carl Anthony Towns. Like he has been playing his role well. It was great to see him basically muscle up on Yokic and seems to be embracing kind of a more

diminished role, allowing Ant to be the focal point. I do wonder, however, how long that will last, if only because it seems like offensively, he's just completely out of sorts and kind of just ancillary to a lot of what they're doing there. I don't necessarily think it's the worst role for him because what is he, if not just a giant spacer, who will be reticent sometimes to attack the rim. But just seeing him get completely taken out of the game against the Celtics by Drew Holiday mostly was just like, man, I don't know. You're asking a guy who's been all NBA,

who's been this just like offensive, like juggernaut, at least from the perimeter, just kind of diminish who he is. And I wonder how long he's going to buy in if he's not also getting fed offensively. That's where the defense matters a lot, though, because if you're winning, it's easier to swallow those things.

And frankly, like the starting lineup, like the groups with Townsend Gobert on the floor together, they've actually been pretty good offensively. And so it's one thing, if you're out there and you're not producing and your team feels like it's stuck in the month, that's when you get. He's not individually producing,

but the offense isn't like completely garbage. It's just he has not played to the level, like you said, just all-MBA, all-star level that we've known him to play at. So that's why it's felt stark, but often they're not terrible offensively. Definitely not.

And like there's room here too for him to be particularly good in the right matchups, right? Like maybe Aunt Edwards is the driver of your offense on a day-to-day basis, and Towns goes for 30 when it's opportune for him to go 30. Like maybe that's just what this offense ends up being. Yeah, I think there is a role for him here if he wants to accept it. I just think historically, a player of his caliber, kind of diminishing what they could do in order

to fit into the team concept, it's like it's hit and miss, right? And like one of my favorite things about watching the wolves is listening to Jim Peterson talk about Carl Anthony Towns, especially when he's in a spiral like he was against. the Celtics. It's just like, you know, there's something to miss there, and it's like fine for now, but it's something to keep an eye on. But I love watching this team. I think they've been great so far. So you guys are believers. I'm a believer. And one thing we haven't talked about in that formula is I think there's something very important over the last like calendar year or so of getting Gobert, Kyle Anderson, Mike Conley, like that veteran execution level defensively,

I think has been very important for guys like Kat, four guys like Ante. Edwards. Four guys looking to kill Alexander Walker to step in and see like, oh, this is a fully formed like veteran team that knows what it's doing. He seems super comfortable there. But I think just overall like the level of NBA professionalism among like up and down the roster is higher in Minnesota than it's been in a long time. To that effect, not on the different, not on the defensive side, but shout out Mike Conley, who has 26 assists to one turnover right now. I had that down too. One turnover, 179 minutes. Absolutely insane.

And let's say it, like, you ain't getting that from DeAngelo Russell. I'm sorry. You're not. Unfortunately not. Wads, you're a believer, too? Yeah, big, big, big believer in this defense because it's one of those things where the component parts are just so tantalizing, you know. And so, of course, some teams can give the effort in the execution, but they're just not as tall and huge as Rudy Gober is, right? Like they don't combine the foot speed and length at McDaniels.

So like just the the freaking tools that these guys bring is is incredible as well. Okay. So on the flip side, we have, believe it or not, the Pacers are the greatest offense in NBA history. This has nothing to do with small sample size and the fact there were only six games into the season. 120.4 offensive rating, which would be the best in NBA history, better than the King's last. season better than the Mavericks from a few seasons ago. 152 points, Rob, against Wemby and the Spurs.

23's made. Rick Carlisle's 900th win. Are these just like, are they just going to blow everyone off the floor? I mean, not only did they drop 152 on the Spurs, Victor Wembe and Yama was like a non-factor in that game. Just look like he could not necessarily contend with this style of basketball just yet.

it was a lot. I think it's going to be a lot for a lot of teams this season, especially if you roll into facing the Pacers on a second night of a back-to-back and they are just like running a track meet with you, I think that's going to be a brutal matchup all season. So I believe- Tired in that game. It was ridiculous. They get after you. And I think it's one of those things where even if your transition defense is great and you're getting back and you're covering the shooters and you're cutting

off the rim, they just flow really seamlessly. from the break into their stuff. And they keep moving and they get a good shot, right? There's no moment of rest in between the initial break and the half court offense. Like, it's all one thing. And so the fact that they're able to weaponize that against every team in the league on a nightly regular season basis, I think is going to be really formidable. I believe this in the sense that basically every season now, we get a new best offensive team of all times. So, like, there is a record-breaking thing happening in, like, offensive trends in general.

and the Pacers are going to be a great offense. Like they're going to be one of the best offensive teams all season long. So why not? Halliburton is on the floor. Remember that. And when he's not, they're going to give 155 points to the Celtics too. So we don't have to talk about the defense, right?

We don't have to believe in that. No, no, no, no. We don't need to talk about. We're here for offense, guys. So, you know, you hear that term all the time or you see it on Twitter, such and such got put in a blender. But usually it's about individuals. That Spurs game.

was the first time I could remember in a while where a team was in the blender. It was just like a freaking whirling dervish happening to these guys where they were just like, what is going on? And my favorite part about what the Pacers do, even when they flow into the half court,

as Rob said, is the buying that they got from the bigs, that they got from Topping and Smith and, of course, Miles, right? Like, they're running into every single action, right? They're rolling super hard to the rim. Like, it's incredible. Topin is in heaven. You want to talk about a guy who is rejuvenated and just the change of scenery that's

done everything. I think we all were pretty high on Toppin as a pickup coming into the season for the obvious reasons of his fit. But it's just happened so seamlessly. And so that's my favorite part about. watching these guys, it's the verb that the bigs play with. You know, because of course, guards are going to love getting up and down, getting shots up early in the shot clock and all of that.

But the bigs have to be the connectors that are making to work on, dribble handoffs and DHOs and stuff like that. And so that's been my favorite part about this thing, man. And I think there's like a very explicable reason why that's true. And that's that the way the Pacers play, and specifically the way Tyrese Halliburton plays, allows those bigs to be involved. Like they are executing dribble handoff.

They are put in positions to make decisions, right? Like kind of like two on one, do I attack? Do I pass to the corner? Like they are put in positions to actually be involved in the offense beyond just like go wait in the dunker spot. Like Obie Topin catches in the corner, he's shown in his NBA career he can put up that shot. Or for the Pacers, he's putting the ball on the floor.

Like he's continuing the blender that you're talking about. Here's my question. I referenced the Kings earlier. I do wonder if that could be a model for what this Pacers team is kind of constructed here. Now, on the one hand, they are a little bit more on the extremes and even the Kings were last year.

Like their offense is obviously a little bit better through this first couple games, but the defense is significantly worse. They're pretty much like 26th in defense, 117.2 points. You referenced the 155 they gave up against the Celtics. But the East Robb is a little softer. in the post like top three, four,

is could this team do basically what the Kings did last year? Maybe not to quite the same extent, but I think there is room for them to like firmly entrench themselves in the top six, right? Just like become from going from out squarely out of the playoffs last season

to we are a rock solid playoff team. I think that is certainly within their power in part because the defense has been very bad, in some of these games. I think it will get better. And I think the numbers are skewed. Like when you give up 155, you're going to be the worst defensive team in the league, seven games in.

That is the way those numbers are going to bear out. I think they're going to improve some defensively. And some is they're still figuring out some lineup quirks, some matchup quirks. Like they have three new starters this season, right? Like there's just a lot to figure out in terms of who plays when and with whom. And, you know, Ben Mathrin has kind of head a wall in some of these games and hasn't quite look like himself. So they're still getting on the same page collectively

and still figuring out what kind of team they could be and they're already this good, which I think bodes really well. And more importantly for their defense, Justin, they don't start a six foot nine guy at center. So that's why I have a lot more hope for their defense. The to bonus haliburton trade continues to be one of the most fascinating trade in recent history.

It's like the Kauai, George Hill one, just like a couple years later. So are we believers? in this being the best offense in the media history. I mean, tongue firmly in cheek short. I believe they can break the record

for offensive efficiency. I don't think they're a better offense than the 17 warriors. One thing we've alluded to kind of tangentially as we've been talking about the Pacers, but I don't think we've put like too fine a point on.

They're actually pretty deep, and I think deeper than most people would imagine. Like you think of them as, yeah, Miles and Ty Halliburton and that starting group, but like Buddy Heald coming off the bench has been a real like he's such an important player for them regardless, but like Andrew Nemhard, Aaron Neesmith, man, one of the more impressive developmental stories in the NBA in terms of a guy who just like went from the fringes of barely even playing in Boston. He is a crucial pivot player for the Pacers. Like the fact that Aaron Neesmith like kind of flighty wing in Boston has become a guy you can plug in at the four to space and defend credibly.

Like he's guarding Victor Wemnon Yama on some of those possessions because he's physical and he's tough enough to handle some of those kinds of assignments. That's been huge. So I think that the combination of depth and high level offensive talent and some like the synergy of their core guys, they're just going to be an offense that sinks all year long. Still wish that they could get Siakum down there, especially with all these shooters popping up and just sending those over to Toronto. It's just a perfect way. I know. Cash in on ball.

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See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. Next one up here. Believe it or not, Cam Thomas is the new face of basketball in New York City. So Cam Thomas is ninth in the NBA in scoring. He is third in field goals attempted. He is tied for 11th in free throws attempted. I'm going to keep going here. He has the fifth lowest turnover percentage in the NBA.

There's a reason for that. Okay, we'll get to it. And he is ninth in usage. Do you miss shots count as turn? He is nice. It's almost like the Kobe assist. Yeah. Yeah.

But in the turnover fashion. He's the new Kobe. You said it right there. 9th in the NBA in usage. While, as you are currently broadcasting from New York, is the city just a buzz in Brooklyn, as a matter of fact? There he goes. Is everyone just buzzing about Cam Thomas fever?

Yeah, Cam Thomas jerseys everywhere. I haven't seen a single Cam Thomas jersey or any of that as of yet. Not even a shirt jersey. Have I seen of Cam Thomas yet? So maybe, maybe this might be one of those slow burns, you feel me? That could be a supply chain issue. You know, they didn't know, the Nets didn't know what Camp Thomas could be. Right.

They didn't stock the store well enough. Christmas, Christmas is right around the corner, so maybe they'll be ready for Christmas season for all seven of the Nets fans who exist in New York City today. And Justin Varyer. Maybe the biggest Nets fan of them all. Yeah, I'm actually decked out in Nets gear as we speak. Ben Simmons tattooed on my chest, yeah. As long as it's not that weird, like, patchwork jersey situation they were wearing

the other night. Like some of the alternates for the Nets, I don't know. Is Justin Varyer had a hand tattoo? He would be the modile Nets fan of existence. That's all he's missing. A hand tattoo on one of these, one of these joints. Is that big now? Oh my goodness. Are you kidding me? You know how many tattoos? These white boys in Brooklyn got these guys, bro. What if I just got Rob's face on my hand?

Just so when we're off the pod, I could just talk to him, just do like sex. with my hand. Am I more of like the angel on your shoulder or the devil on your shoulder in your life? A little bit of both. I'll be honest. How many letters are in group chat? You can get them across your neck.

I like that. I like that. Maybe if the nuggets win the title. We'll do that. But Rob, Cam Thomas, your thoughts. I don't believe that he is the face of basketball in New York because he's the face of basketball in the whole freaking NBA. This is our guy.

We've been waiting for him. He has arrived. I'm like honestly, everything he is doing is replicable. Yeah. He is this level of shot maker. And I think the beauty of Cam Thomas in a lot of ways is he can be one of the most effective per minute scores in the league,

whether he's your first option on this weird team or he's your seventh option on a loaded roster. Like he is this guy and he is going to continue to be this guy. Can you build a whole offense around that? I think we're seeing some of the limitations. that come with that strategy, in particular what happens if you trap him, not the most, like,

intuitive passer in terms of, like, understanding those reeds and how to get himself out of trouble. But, man, the things you can accomplish just by giving that guy a single ball screen and getting out of the way are very apparent. Just an unbelievable pull-up shooter who can also get to the rim. Like, I think, honestly,

the fact that he can get to his step back, but it's not like this big, exaggerated step back allows him to stay on balance and score over the top of lots of different defenders, even big defenders. But I mean, word of advice to everyone out there, do not drop against Camp Thomas. We're seeing what happens when you try to do it. You have to play him at the level of the screen. You have to trap him.

You have to engage him on the ball. And the fact that, you know, I think whatever we thought of the Nets going into the season and what their pecking order would look like, I think those of us in the know expected Cam Thomas to be a relevant score, but not relevant in a way where now you have to, like he is item 1A or 1B in your game plan against the Brooklyn Nets. This is what you have to do against this guy.

He's deserving of that level of respect at this point because my man can get buckets. Like there's zero doubt about it, no matter who you put on him, no matter what the situation is, where he is on the floor, he's just such a natural. Yeah, hard shot making is a valuable attribute in the NBA.

It always will be. no matter what, even if those hard shots are coming in, you know, the quadrant on the court that most defenses would like you to actually take those shots. But to me, that's kind of the point. He can make those shots in an efficient manner. That's huge, right? And there doesn't seem to be some easy fix as far as just how defenses conventionally play that to stop him.

you know, one of his superpowers is that the guy can square his freaking body no matter when or where he takes the shot, no matter what direction, his hips or feet are pointing at the point that he starts the shooting motion, right? And so, again, obviously this is a great, a great skill to have.

When it's not paired with other skills, it starts to diminish an importance, but just the idea that this dude can average 28 points, 0.7 points a game against NBA defenses. Like, it's hard, even for me, who's a bit skeptical of what this Nets team ultimately is. It's hard for even me to be like, well, come on. Like, he's dropping damn nearly 30 points a game in the NBA. What he did to the bucks the other night was absurd.

Oh, you know. So, yeah, this is real. real flip Murray vibes, I got to say, with this, who in 2003-04, 24 points per game to start the season, I think if you adjust for pace in the different environments, I think you get Cam Thomas. I'm a little skeptical that there is staying power, but I do wonder if they can incorporate him more into the flow of what they have. I honestly think this is just kind of a weird in a way indictment of McKill Bridges' kind of meteoric rise. last season where it seems like he's kind of settled into a number two role regardless. And it almost feels like again, this is like just a blank space for the next superstar of

the Brooklyn Nets to come in because they keep auditioning guys in this premier role where you have Ben Simmons powering off ends in certain times. And then you have Cam Thomas going off like he's prime Kobe. And so like to a certain extent like they can use him. But I do wonder if he ultimately settles back into a bench role and just is a little bit more Jamal. Crawford than Supernova and Edwards, you know. Yeah, I don't think he's going to be anchoring offenses for the rest of his career, if that's what you're saying. But he is a fundamental reason the Nets are somehow the seventh best offense in the league right

now, right? I think his willingness to do that and his, I mean, like, I say willingness, like you have to drag him kicking and screaming into taking 30 shots. Like, this is what he does. And it's not necessarily what McHale Bridges does. Like, I think with McHale, there's always going to be. that voice in a player like that in the back of their head about, should I take this shot? Is this my shot?

Is this my time? Like, he's so used to playing more of a complimentary role, being more of like a make-the-right read kind of player, it takes time to rewire yourself as a score in those circumstances. And I think we saw it in flashes at the tail end of the last season after the trade. I mean, more than flashes for extended stretches after the trade. But expecting him to just be a first-option guy, I don't think that's who he is. I don't think it's where he's most comfortable. And we saw that with USA basketball too.

Like, Mikhail's just so good at slotting into a more flexible, team-friendly role than that. So, like, let him, let Mikhail be Mikhail. Let Cam be Cam. And this is how that pecking order kind of naturally sifts out. Yeah, it's Cam Thomas is, is powering the offense,

but I also feel like not having Nick Claxton in there has allowed the Nets to, like, indulge their inner, just J.R. Smith. They are just letting it jack with all these 3&D guys all around. And like, they're no, Cam Johnson, too. No Nick Clifton and no Cam Johnson. Right. And so, yeah, they've gotten by by almost like being Cam Thompson,

if not Cam Thompson, literally, than in spirit and in soul. And so I would say... Like Cam Thompson? Cam Thomas? My bad. Yeah. Well, I'm just compining him with Clay Thompson because that's how he's been playing so far this season. I was trying to figure if that's what you were going for.

Just a few weeks ago had the illest name pronunciation ever. He called... he pronounced Xavier on the Memphis as like you would say Javier. Zavierre? You cross your Zavier-Henry's and your Xavier Tillman's. Is that what happened? I think that's what happened. That is such a way better way to say that name, bro.

I'm just like a more cultured NBA watcher than you guys. It's true. Just eat, breathe while watching Nets games on a Tuesday night. But do you guys believe it? Rob, you're sounding like you believe the Cam Thomas experience and maybe even the Cam Thompson experience. I believe in both of them. I mean, I believe that he is this caliber of score.

I just don't think if he is this caliber of score, your offense is going to run into a lot of brick walls when teams start treating him like a first option, right? When teams, again, if you have the capacity to trap this guy on a late game possession, I don't know that it's going to like yield a lot of great offense for the Brooklyn Nets. He doesn't know where his exit routes are yet

out of that kind of stuff. And maybe he'll get better at that over time. But fundamentally, he's an explosive, like jump shooting heavy player. And there's going to be ebbs and flows with that. But I think one thing working in his favor is he has, he has that, like, Donovan Mitchell tank build, where especially if you look at his lower body, right?

He's not one of these, like, really scrawny guards who's just, like, jacking up shots because they always wanted to be Steph or something like that. He has the build where he can continue to like get lift on his jumper and hit shots late in games because he has a strong lower base. And it's a little like a hobbit. He's not a little. That's extremely rude.

He's got some Kyle Lowry to him. We can say that. That Samwise Gamji build is what you're saying? You can say that. I think that's extremely disrespectful to a six three guy who's averaging like 30 points a game. But maybe that's just me. When he cans at three, we just yell out potatoes.

Second breakfast? Was, do you get that joke? I don't. I don't know what that is. I could see you kind of being a Tolkien guy, though, Waz. I don't know.

This is surprising to me. No, yeah, the Hobbit and all, yeah, it's tough. Fantasy is always, it's always going to be tough for me.

This is, it's always going to be a tough, tough, tough sell. You know, anytime the premise is like, yeah, this guy runs around doing stuff in tights. I'm like, okay.

We'll get you up on the desolation of Smog sometimes soon. Fire. But Cam Thomas was. Are you a believer? I need to see some more. Like, you know, in so much as this is going to be helpful to winning consistently, you know, allowing Cam Thomas to shoot 22 times a game, I'm going to need to be convinced that this is actually a recipe for something that sustainably is competitive in NBA basketball.

So I'm holding off on believing in this Cam Thomas thing. You know what he is good for, though, is being a part of a Ben Simmons team. I think ultimately, if you're going to rely on players like Ben, you're going to have to compensate with really aggressive shot hunters at other positions. And again, if McHale Bridges, if, you know, Cam Johnson when he gets back, If they are not going to be those guys, you're going to need this from Camp Thomas. You're going to need Spencer Dinwiddie hunting shots in certain games. And so if Cam can produce like this in that kind of capacity, I think that works well for this version of the Nets. All right.

This next one took a little bit of license with the format here. Believe it or not, the magic hawks and thunder all over 500, which we believe because that's literally true. My question, though, is who do you believe in most was of those three teams is there one that jumps out to you? I mean, it's obvious to me. It's got to be the thunder. I just, again, we've talked a little bit about, well, a lot of bit about Chet and what he's doing. But Shea looks just as incredible as he did last year. I think J. Dubb is, it's not happening. Again, a lot of times we expect these guys to just be on a beautiful line graph trajectory, just up, up, up, up, you know, sort of like a freak. in GameStop stock, but I feel like a lot of times these guys have ebbs and flows, man, and I think

he hasn't really shut out the gate, but still he's getting to the cup with just as much reckless abandon and ferocity as ever. And so I believe the rest of the stuff is going to come to him. It's just to me the collective talent, one, and the

known, just proven, established talent of Shea Gilgis Alexander is what separates him from the Hawks best player who I guess is still Tray Young and, you know, the magic's best players, right? And so, yeah, for me, it's still got to be the thunder. I think we might have to disqualify the thunder from this question. I appreciate the spirit of what you were going for, Justin. It's young guys, yeah.

They might be too promising and too good to lump in with. And Atlanta's been impressive, I think, or not the magic, according to Justin Vary, because they've got the best future in the NBA. So it makes sense. that to be true. They look really good. I don't know if you've seen Anthony Black in that starting lineup, my friends. The defense, too, has been legit.

Well, here's the question with the Thunder. Maybe they could be a separate thing here where it's, do we think that they have arrived earlier than maybe we expect it? Because I think we were more kind of in the wait and sea mode than some people were like, well, they're young. Let's see what happens. Like, Rob, do you think that's already gone? We should just expect them to be in top six in the West?

I think if the shooting is real, if the three point shooting is, real. The rest of the league is going to have real trouble guarding these guys and the actions that they run. I mean, Shea in particular, but really everything that goes into the Thunder offense. And I'm encouraged to think that the shooting is fairly realistic at this point, because it's not like they're getting aberrational shooting numbers from three for like Shea and Giddy and Jalen Williams. Those guys are kind of being more or less the shooters they've been. The only guy really far over his head at this point is Lou Dort. Otherwise, it's mostly like Isaiah Joe, who's a great, great shooter.

It's Chet Holmgren, who, as far as we've seen, is a very good NBA shooter. And we'll see if that comes back to Earth over the course of the year or not. But the spacing. That's real. That's real. Okay. It seems like it. And the spacing is gorgeous right now in a way that makes all of their drive-in-kick

stuff look really, really smooth. And so if that's what it's going to be, if this is a team, it's going to shoot like 38, 39% as a team from three, I have a hard time thinking that this isn't who they are. Yeah, Chet, 56, 54, 90. And he's, every game, it seems like he's adding a little bit something else to the point where he's got the sauce off the dribble, going into the bank, going behind his back to the guy.

It's unreal. Like, it's crazy that he and Wembe are happening at the same time. And it's joyous for us as NBA fans, but in some way, he's not getting as much love as he probably deserves. because in any other year, this would just be remarkable and things that we have not seen before. Well, I know we're going to talk about him more.

We have some very exciting rookie-related content coming up on a future episode. I'm sure we'll talk about Chet a lot. But just to give you guys a preview of the energy that I'm going to be bringing to that podcast, I've come to spread the good word about Kays and Wallace to you both.

Oh, Lord of mercy. You mentioned Chet's percentage just Justin, Kason Wallace right now, is starting the 70-50-100 club. I have literally not seen him miss a shot this season yet. That's where we're at. And this is a guy who's already like a very high-level young defender. And maybe this is just one of those months where every shot is going to fall. But until I see him again, literally miss a shot,

I am compelled to think he is a real deal NBA contributor right out of the gate for a team that already has more real deal NBA contributors than they can find minutes for. Yeah. Well, to talk about some of these other two teams, I have to be honest with you. I'm starting to talk myself into the Hawks a little bit. Yeah. They've been good. I kind of like this team. And Rob's early nod to Jalen Johnson was spot on because that guy's really good. And I'm surprised, I guess he had a weird college situation, but I'm surprised he fell so far in the draft because he really gives you a little bit of everything and clarifies that starting lineup in ways that I think John Collins didn't. And, like, I thought the game that they played against the Pelicans was a little instructive there where the Pelicans, which, let's just be honest, that team is kind of soulless.

Like, it just topples over after halftime. It doesn't rebound at all. And that's a whole other episode. But, like, the Hawks were the steady team that made the right moves to win that game. And I'm like, there's a certain professionalism. I don't know if Quinn Snyder and his gorgeous new glasses are putting a new, like, just lens on this team. No, you're out? out on peacock-esque-ish reading glasses.

Not a fan. What do we think about Joe Missoula's orange lenses? Do we know if there was a medical reason for that? I think there are, yeah. Okay. It's like a low light situation or something like that. Something about like he had an eye injury. I've noticed he's rocking a little gold chain now.

It's just Joe Missoula, like, because he had substitute teacher vibes, I feel like some of this is him coming into his like, this is actually my job, you know what I mean? And this is like him performing confidence. So I'm not mad at it. It's like, Quinn Snyder, you a grown ass, man. Ain't no reason to be wearing like bright, colored frame glasses. I mean, come on.

He looks like Prue from Bake Off. Oh, he does. Honestly, there is a big Prue effect and, you know, really going on there. Yeah. Hopefully not as, well, yeah. As far as Joe goes, I do like that he has elevated. He was signed on as a substitute teacher, but that ended up having to, you know,

play out the whole school year, having to fill that role. Now he's just like cool, hip young teacher, you know? He's just showing the kids what he's got. Yeah, waiting for him to show up,

it was just blonde hair at a certain point. Why not? Quinn Snyder always reminded me of one of the killers from Scream. Okay. All right. Spoiler alert. God.

Yeah, if you're watching scream for the first time, pay no mind to anyone who looks like Quinn, Snyder in that movie. It's cool. It's cool. The most recent one. But for some reason,

they're called the same exact thing. Yeah. It's a problem. But yeah, the Hawks. I don't know. Was,

do you have a feeling on them? I feel like they're better than we expect it. Look, every single one of their games that they have in one, they've been competitive

with pretty much everybody. They're given, like, they're clearly much better than they were last year. It's just, this Trey Young thing needs to resolve itself and in such that,

like, either he needs to play, better or embrace something different. You either need to be better at this stubborn shit that you insist upon or try something else. And to me, that needs to be resolved before I start like, oh, okay, the Hawks are serious. Because, you know, you could probably make the case that they're just as talented, if not more, than Indiana. You could make that case possibly, right? But Indiana has a truth, an identity to what they do, which gets me more excited about what's happening over there, even if they're not ultimately, you know, knocking on, you know, Boston and Milwaukee's door, right? Or even the Sixers door.

But the Hawks, I just feel like it's, it still feels so shapeless, even as successful, they've still managed to be on offenses. So that's why I'm just like, I don't know about the Hawks. I'm pretty impressed, to be honest. And I think I wanted to defend Tray a little bit because he has not made shots. Like, let's all be frank about what's happening here, not making pretty much anything at this point. Yeah. But I think the way he's contributing to the offense, the way he's facilitating, the way he's setting guys up, like the passing has been on point in a way that they needed to be. His kind of partnership with DeJante Murray, I think, has taken on an even healthier shape.

And so between that and you have Quinn Snyder, playing like a pretty short rotation, like kind of an eight-man group that right now is just like with everybody healthy, looking pretty solid top to bottom. Like you have Capella and a Congo basically splitting time at the five, both very solid options there. You have some really effective bench lineups coming in to spell the starters. Dejante is getting to the basket a lot more than he did last season, which was always the weird thing about Atlanta with the group they had last year, is they give this incredibly athletic slasher. And he just like wasn't getting to the in ways that you need him to get to the rim.

And so to see that has been huge. I think they've been a little inconsistent. But when they click, they really click. And they have shown up some pretty good teams so far. And so I think over the course of the year, like six and one, they're not going to maintain this kind of record pace. But I do think in terms of the stability of their play, I think there's room for them to improve.

There's clearly room for trade to start making some shots and stabilize on offense himself. But I think they're going to be pretty good. I've been pretty encouraged by kind of the shape of what this team can be. Trey's license to take some of the shots that he takes is one of the most baffling things I've ever seen, where it's like he came into the league with such a reputation of being a deep three-point shooter that people have just kind of like allowed him to do it. It's kind of like if someone just like let me host the Joe Rogan podcast because I said that I'm just like an incredible podcaster and you just have to let me do these sorts of things.

things. But at the same time, he'll miss like four or five. And then when you need him to, he'll hit it and it works. And just there's something about this team that I don't love it, like just logically. But you're right. It's clicking. And I can't help wonder if like, this is a team that could just finish fifth or six in the east. I think the difference between me and Rob is I need to be convinced that this is ultimately going to be some consistent thing. That night to night, we know what we're going to see from the Hawks. I need to be convinced of that. Whereas Rob is just like, look, man, like they're winning in spite of this inconsistent or despite the inconsistency.

And so, you know, Quinn Snyder being who he is over the course of the season, maybe this thing will become stabilized. And you can't. And again, like, it'd be hypocritical of me to be like, yo, I don't respect wins. Like, you know, I do. They're winning. So, you know, I understand why there's reason for optimism that I didn't see at all last season, even when Quinn took over midseason, that's definitely there now. This is the brutal part about this stage in particular of the season. Like, everything is so short and so random that we're trying to parse like, is Atlanta pulling out these games because they are competent in a way that allows them to pull out wins, even games they don't play particularly well?

Rob, come on, Rob. You know there's no rhyme or reason to close game outcomes. Come on now. You've been a nerd long enough to know that one. I'm not sure there's rhyme or reason to anything in the universe at this point, especially crunch time play and certainly not the Atlanta Hawks, but I am grasping for meaning. Well, the one thing I am sure of is that the Orlando Magic have arrived, my friends. Actually, I'm not 100% sure about that. But I will say third on defense, despite playing an incredibly early West Coast swing against the LA teams and a couple others there.

They beat the lake because down, my word. And they lost Wendell Carter Jr., too. They've been doing this without their best defensive big. Fultz has been playing with knee swelling and so Padaze and Anthony Black are in the lineup there. Paulo starting to come around after a sluggish start to the season. The one thing I focused on is just Jalen Suggs. And on the one hand, he is to credit for a lot of the defensive success.

He's an absolute menace on the ball that dude plays his ass off defensively. And I'm sure the coaching staff loves him for that. But man, is he pressing on offense? And the shot just isn't there right now. I do wonder if they get into a situation that we kind of forecasted here where expectations result in expectations on Suggs to deliver a little bit more offensively. And so on the one hand, like I like what they have now. I do think there are some pretty tough choices that they're going to have to make. And I wonder if they start making them pretty.

soon because I like the rest of what they have, Rob. You can feel Orlando like the players wanting Jalen Suggs to happen. Like wanting to emboldened him and encourage him and wanting him to take those shots. And you can easily see why when you see the rest of his game. Like that guy is all over the place defensively.

He gets a ton of deflections. He chases down rebounds. He plays with an energy that's very, very helpful for them. And it's not like he's a zero. on offense. Like he's not hitting the shots you want him to hit, but he's a good connector. He moves the ball well. Like, he knows how to play. My God, can we, like, can he

just stabilize as like even like a slightly below average three point shooter? It would just do so much for this team because they need players like him and they need the excuse to be able to keep them on the floor because you're right. If they continue to be good, they're going to be faced with tough questions about their spacing, about

like, which of these guards are you relying on at the ends of some of these close games? Right now, Suggs is getting a lot of those shots and a lot of those opportunities, but it may not always be that way when everyone is fully healthy, right? When Gary Harris is back in the lineup, when Fultz is healthy and playing well, like Suggs may not always get those calls. And he's the kind of player you want to root for because he does so many things so well, and he legitimately plays the game the right way.

The offense just hasn't been there as a scorer for him yet. And maybe it never will be, but for where the magic are, I think it's good to try. I think it's good to see. Like, can he be that guy for us? But at the end of the day, even a homeless man's, you know, prime Kyle Lowry shoots better than this, right? Like, homeless man's prime Kyle Lowry. So it's like he's not a poor man.

He's like a homeless guy that doesn't have health care's version of Kyle Lowry. But he's got to, he's a story of this country, my friend. He's got to make more shots. Bottom line, you know, all the intangible stuff that all of us loved about him. He is such a freaking smart player. His understanding of the game is, is next level, cerebral, you know, coach on the court, all of that stuff actually applies to this dude. He's incredible at that stuff.

But, you know, when you don't make shots, man, this shit don't matter. But he is representative of kind of what Orlando should want in its guard play and what they should be prioritizing and targeting in the guard play. Obviously, you want them to be all the space and hit shots. But in terms of if we're going to be this huge team with a ton of length defensively,

we need scramblers at the guard positions who are going to be playing passing lanes who are going to be jumping actions. Right? Like, he is that prototype of player. And he's a reason why, like they've been one of the best like turnover teams in the NBA so far,

which was just like forcing mistakes and getting out on the break, which is so important to their offense. Hopefully they, hopefully Suggs can be that guy. or they can find those guys or Anthony Black can materialize as being that kind of player too. But a lot of signs in Orlando are pointing up. Like things are starting to click in a place in a way that's really exciting. All right.

Last one here. We end with where we start. Believe it or not, the Celtics and Nuggets are the best teams in the NBA. Was Celtics 5 and 1 plus 14.5 point differential first in the NBA. Nuggets 5 and 1 plus 10.9 point in virtual, third in NBA. your thoughts i mean the celtics offense has been upgraded there's no two ways about it right um i think what k p has done what i underestimated about k p's joining the celtics is again like he plays with a level of force every night that just wasn't always the case for him previous in his

previously in his career of course it showed up more and why Washington. I think a lot of it did have to do with the opportunity and just that he was made more of a focal point. But in Boston, he's not the number one option, so to speak. But he plays with force. He is, when he is, you know, being ran off that three point line, he's putting it on the deck and going to the basket strong, finishing strong, drunk fouls, doing all of that. And of course, you know, the rim protection that he's provided has been incredible. but I just think offensively he's taking the top off of this thing in just the way that I found to be still just incredible, right? I'm surprised by that.

And so the offense, I think, has definitely been elevated. I don't know it's as good as they've shown. I think it's been, like, freaking incredible. You know, some of these Al-horford threes where it's not even touching the rim at all. And Big Al used to be a little bit more reticent about five. firing these threes. It feels like this year, soon as he catches it with space,

he's letting it go, right? And so, you know, their offense has been supercharged. You know what I'm saying? And, of course, they're still playing some of the best defense in the league. But if I were a Celtics fan,

I would want them to keep a defensive mentality. Because if they're going to really beat people, I still don't think they're going to beat people because there's some mega, unstoppable offensive situation. I think it's going to be because, collectively they stop in people for real. And so, yeah, I don't think this offense is going to be maintained,

but it's impossible not to be impressed with what they've done straight out of the gate, man. And you can't say the two best teams that we've seen so far this regular season aren't the Celtics and the Nuggets. That's impossible. I think even if the numbers aren't there, how seamlessly it's worked is proof of concept for really, really high-level play, right?

Porzingis is just, he's fitting so easily. Your spot on was about the force of his play. The fact that he's a spacer, but he doesn't only sit in the corner. Like he will make that baseline cut and dunk to play off of the primary action. And I think they're going to have nights where some really good player or another doesn't get the ball for a while. And that is life playing on a stack team. I think what's important is they keep it moving well enough right now that inevitably it finds KP in the post. it finds Jalen Brown against a mismatch.

It finds Drew Holiday in a situation where he can work. Like all of these guys, even though they might not be consistently involved in the offense throughout quarters or throughout their stints, they're going to have their moments. And as long as that continues, the offense is going to be really, really good. But there's just no arguing around it, really. As high as Waz and I might have been on Milwaukee, like the Bucks have to prove it. And they have not come anywhere close to proving that they are at the Celtics level yet. They have a lot of work to do. Boston has some work to do, but already are just, you know, they're off to an incredible start.

There's no way to talk around that. It's kind of startling how everything fit into place so well, so quickly. And that's so easily. One to Derek White, who basically did this before last season with the Celtics and has been even better shooting the absolute lights out. But I have honestly been super impressed with Drew Holiday, basically being a champion and let's say third in the peck. order of a constant contender, just completely diminishing, like, his role to a certain extent and just accepting it and being brilliant in it still. Like, he's taking the fewest shots per game since he was a rookie. He's been in this league a very, very, very long time. And it's a really

hard thing to do for a veteran player to do. Also, the top three defensive matchups for him this season are Cam Thomas, Carl Anthony Towns, and Julius Randall. Just the breadth of guys that they're throwing him on too. And he's just doing it without any sort of like ruffling of feathers. He's just been absolutely what they need. And honestly, the fact that they've worked in an All-Star into like a fifth role on this team is like, that's scary for the rest of the league. And those are lineups with Horford and Porzingis on the floor.

And it's like, you know what? What if we put just, what if we put Drew on Kat? Just to see what happens. And spoiler alert, it worked pretty well in terms of neutralizing towns. It led to some other things. And that's going to be where it's interesting to watch Boston over the course of the season, right? Like the tradeoff for putting Drew on towns is now Porzingis was guarding Jaden McDaniels for stretches. And so then they started using Jaden McDaniels as a screener and involving, you know, pulling KP from the basket that way.

So there's there's a give and take to all this stuff, but the Celtics have more give, right? They have more options defensively. They have a newfound flexibility because your point guard can guard fours and fives credibly as a primary assignment. That's an insane kind of a strategic luxury to have if you're Joe Missoula and the Celtic staff beyond the fact that, you know, like Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, all the guys around him, these are rock solid defenders. And to have those guys just like wading in the wings

while Drew does the dirty work on some of these assignments, Boston's really freaking good. Just maybe not quite as good. That's the Denver Nuggets. And no, and listen, and because I wouldn't be me if I didn't pour some cold water on this Boston, you know, tongue bath that we're fucking doing right now.

Slob wizards? Yeah. The slob wizarding that we're doing right now. I think the Minnesota game drew specifically, because it was the perfect Drew holiday game for me, where he's like four of 17 or whatever the hell he's doing, just some horrible shot taking and decision making. But again,

And all the shit that you mentioned, the one part where he, like, he gets an offensive rebound and finishes above all of the trees. He sneaks in and steals the ball on an endbound. Like, he does all of those great things. But on offense, some of it can just look just crazy when he's doing his one-on-one thing. And I think, you know, in the half court, at the end of the games, we saw a lot of the old Celtics habits, which I think some of it, they're getting. out of too, which I think is encouraging, honestly, that they're doing it this early. That Tatum

and Drew pick and roll where they did it like three times in a row and got some great shots and actions out of it, even if they didn't convert all of them. Then finally on the fourth time, Jada McDaniels is like, bro, I'm not letting these fools make me switch on this.

We're just going to finally play this right. But just the fact that teams had to make that calculation, you know, on the fly against, instead of here, Jalen, get the ball 30 feet, try to create. Here, Tatum, get the ball 30 feet, try to create. Just the fact that they can add these different wrinkles. And then, of course, you know, because Scal on the call was just so upset.

He's like, put poor Zingis in the fucking action. Hurry up. And then, you know, they finally did put Porzengis in the action and great things came. Now, again, in the future, do I think poor Zingas is going to just crush switches? I got to see it to believe it because he just. never done it in his career. Washington. I think watching Drew Holiday

isolate is going to be some great shakes for these cats. Hell fucking no. But, you know, I think they have so much more optionality, man, on this team. And it's just going to be a matter of them not being boneheaded

in big spots the way they have in the past and just being as multiple as they clearly are. We've talked about that Wolves Celtics game a lot. And I think for good reason, it was just one of the best games. so far of this regular season. And these guys were getting after it, more importantly.

Everybody involved. Like, you know, we raved about McDaniels and Edwards and what they were doing defensively. Man, Jason Taden was sick in that game. Like, as a driver, absolutely sick. Great, great game for him. Every time slow-mo got switched on him, it took him less than a second to figure out,

I'm going to blow right past this pool. It was light-skinned on light-skinned violence I haven't seen in years. I know Isaiah was just covering his eyes, watching that at the crib. On the slow-mo front, maybe the highlight of the season so far, Kyle Anderson tees up a three. Luke Cornett is guarding him,

goes up for like the eclipse jump from the free throw line to try to block his line of sight. If you're not familiar with Luke Cornett, he's doing this for a while. Like, no chance of blocking it, but just like jumps with guys as they shoot to try to distract them. Kyle Anderson's shot was so slow

that Luke Cornett went up and came all, the way back down before the shot even went up. And it was fucking magical. It was an incredible moment. Shout out to two legends in the game, Kyle Anderson and Luke Cornett. There's going to be a fascinating conversation to have at some point. I want to have it where it seems like both the Celtics and the Clippers are trying to empower their incredible wing scorers in different ways.

The Celtics clearly went the spacing and the making things easier on the precocious wings on Jalen and Tatum. whereas the Clippers brought in a ball handler and a ball mover in order to empower Kauai and Paul George. And like just watching that play out in real time is something I'm going to be keeping track of. But it's working for one and not the other, but obviously the Clippers only had the one game with Hardin. But since you guys gave me this early gift of just orgasming over the Celtics, I want to return the favor here and just say that the nuggets have been equally impressive here. To that point, I think I was expecting something of a calm down because

against the Pelicans the other night. All of a sudden, Jamal Murray is hurt. It seems like an injury that could be for a little while here. The quote from Malone was ominous that it's not going to be a one or two game thing. So we'll keep track of that. But all of a sudden, Reggie Jackson is in the starting lineup. And I'm like, oh, no, this is where we get to see if the death can withstand. And then, you know, Kitch was just like, no thanks.

I'm just going to make magic happen. I'm just going to do 15 and 15. And like, all due respect to Julian Strother, who had an incredible game. He had 21 points and hit all these threes. but like just watching Yokish just pick a team apart that just like couldn't be on the floor with him. Like they had no business being on the floor with him. He was just incredible and here they are, still five and one.

He's on some next level shit right now, Yokic. Yeah. You know, changing hands on runners, midair, like pointing guys into position and then just like systematically picking teams apart. I don't know who can keep up with that. He's got this new thing where he's faking the pass to the shooters fanning out. at three and giving it to a cutter instead, whereas like the dude is running in the direction

of the three-point shooters on the, or in the same lane as the three-point shooters. And the teams are so used to, you know, fanning out, like, oh, shit, we got to cover these shooters. And the guy just, he's just doing crazy shit. And for me, my favorite part is that, so remember in 2013, I think it was 2013, when LeBron had that.

that like efficiency streak of like 30 points per game, but it was like 55 shooting and all of this craziness, where Braun was just, you know, he was like, I'm so good I can chase like efficiency. You know, like I don't even need to do this like volume stuff. I'm going to be efficient. Yogi's just like, no, I'm going to try to keep scoring now. Like, not even, I'm going to try to drop 40 every night.

That's what I'm really enjoying. Because it's to me that's the final level of Yokich where sometimes he obviously we know he's like one of the greatest pastors we've ever seen and I felt like a lot of times he could be unselfish to his own detriment. Now he's just like fuck that. I'm dropping

buckets every night. I don't give a damn. And that is, that's exhilarating, man. And I think the Murray thing, I don't, to me it's not an encore thing. It's like these nagging muscle injuries man, you don't know when they're going to crop back up, how long they linger.

Like these are the most worrying of the injuries, honestly. So that worries me, but they're going to be fine. They're not going to take some nose-dive because Murray's not playing. They're going to be completely fine. Well, especially if Yoke is just scoring like that, Reggie Jackson has given them really solid minutes so far. And let me tell you, the Peyton Watson, Julian Strother stuff, like, it's happening.

Payton is the real deal, y'all. That guy is. Watson is the real deal. He's such a live wire for them in a way that's real. healthy and really helpful. And so I think they're getting enough of these supplementary contributions

that are rounding out their team. When you've already won a championship, you can get away with not having Jamal Murray for however long you need to not have Jamal Murray because Yokic is going to do what he's been doing. You know that your veterans are going to slot into their spots

so capably and so comfortably. And Michael Porter, Jr., particular kudos for the way he's defended this season. I think he's been really tremendous, especially one-on-one. But then you get these young guys coming up the pipe. And it's been what we were sold by Denver.

The idea that these guys are stepping into slightly bigger roles. And they're not going to deliver on a nightly basis because they're too young for that and a little too raw for that. But this early in the season, they're each having their moments, right? Like every second or third game is going to be a Peyton Watson game, a Julian Strother game, a particularly good Christian Brown game. And that's going to be more than enough. It's almost like Calvin Booth talked all that shit in the pages of the ringer.com for a reason.

Justin. I'm not 100% sold that like a bunch of first and second year players are going to just all of a sudden be incredible in the way that Rob is. But, you know, that's just me because I've seen rookies like not be incredible all, every single game. No, here's what I will say. It's cool. Talk to me about Sam Hauser and Lamar Stevens instead. Don't you dare talk about Lamar Stevens.

Sam Hauser. He is a god. No, man. No, no. So here's the thing. The Celtics, that last game ran a lineup that had four white dudes in it. I was like, yo, this is dedication, man. Shouts to big Bill Simmons, man, and the whiteout.

He originated that term, by the way. The Celtics almost achieved the white out in that game. But I will say this, this time without Murray almost affords those. guys more opportunities because I actually thought the blueprint of home-growing rotation players was brilliant for Denver, a team that obviously is going to not be able to pay the luxury tax in the same way a Joe Lekup will. It puts less strain on all of your big contract players and strain on your organization to do something because you have all these guys coming through the pipeline and being able to give them more opportunities without Murray, but with

Yokic who's going to be able to orchestrate with bums, homeless, whoever, Kyle Lowry's, whatever, off the street. And so long term, this is, this is a good thing. I am a little concerned if Murray's not there, what happens. I have to say, do you guys, do you guys watch those in-between lead past breaks where they show the nostalgia clips where it's like, oh, this guy from Summer League, first of all, love that. Whoever made that decision, absolutely incredible. But they were showing some of Murray just dunking on people. And like you forget how much like just this guy had to him.

And also how he had a chin beard for a long stretch of his career, which as someone who did that throughout college, I have to say, I too regret and know how bad that can be. But it sucks that that guy is a little bit more diminished and hopefully he gets through this injury

after a couple of games. But I mean, and Yoko, we trust, I guess, Rob. Why would you not? Genuinely, like, if you've been bouncing around the league and who could blame you at this point in the season and you haven't quite made it to the nuggets yet or you haven't spent a lot of time with them, you need to see what Yokic is doing right now. Like they play the Warriors on Wednesday night. Tune in for that game. You know, they have a great game, a great matchup against the Clippers next week.

Tune in for that game. Yeah. He's been so far on another level from every other player in the league. It's ridiculous. And, you know, I don't want to get into November 8th MVP talk. He's just been. We're not doing that. We're not doing that.

I'm saying I'm not. I'm distinctly not doing it. He's just been top to bottom sensational every night out in ways that are like mind expanding. So please, even if you think you know who Nicola Yokic is having just watched him win the freaking title, he's been better. I promise you. He's been better. All right. That's it for the Slob Wizards.

Signing off for the week. We'll be back on Sunday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakelyan production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll see that. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fanduel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. LLC.

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