The Ringer NBA Show - Believe It or Not: The Buddy Ball Warriors, Soaring 3-Point Rates, and More. | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back to play a game of believe it or not with six trends from the early part of the season. They discuss Buddy Hield and the Warriors, the Brooklyn Nets, the Lakers, and much more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA. And check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting

right on the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. Group chat. I am Justin Barrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Totally normal day to be doing a podcast. But the one thing I think that will bring us all together, both this country and us on this show, is talking about whether or not the Brooklyn Nets are okay. America's team? Can we all rally behind them? I believe. I don't, but we're going to get into that, I'm sure, in this pod.

What do you envision as the overall gimmick today, Justin? It is a classic one. It is, believe it or not, one that we've done now at least three years in a row. It's a little bit different than real or not real, specifically because we're using different terminology. So we have on the docket, what, five, six different things. talk about early season results, whether or not we believe in those things,

whether or not they can persist throughout the rest of the regular season. So item number one, American democracy, go. Big believe. Believe? Big believe. I mean, the people spoke, y'all. That's just what it comes down to.

We believe in democracy. You believe in the voice of the people, man. Come on now. We got to believe in it when we like it and when we don't like it. That's a noble, message and I regret the prompt already. Let's let's just go. All right. Why don't we just get into it here? Let's start with, I think, the biggest story in the NBA right now, and that's the Golden

State Warriors. I have two things for you here, two believe it or not. Can you believe that? We got Buddy Healed first and foremost shooting 50.7% from three point land at extreme volume. We're talking nine a game at this point. He looks like a mini Steph Curry out there. We'll talk about that. Number two, Rob, it's the Warriors defense. Number two in the NBA, we talked very long about OKC and last pod with Kirk Goldsbury. The Warriors have been pretty damn good in their own right. So which are those two things? Buddy or the Warriors defense do you believe in the most going forward from this point on? Man, it's tough because on the one hand, Buddy has always been streaky. He's always been able to catch fire for these stretches. And so I am inclined to not believe in him. But Buddy within this

offense, I do kind of believe with. So if I can drag a little bit, I kind of believe both of these things. Is that allowed? Is it allowed to have that much hope today? Absolutely. It is. And especially because to me, Golden State's defense is what I'm going to believe and choose to believe in more.

And it's because they have Draymond Green, right? It's not just that Draymond is one of the probably five best defenders of my life. All time I'm talking about here. is that the defensive talent is there. Like Wiggins has looked, you know, pre-back injury or whatever, has looked as springy as he looks since 2022. I thought he had his moments,

especially on defense last night, where he looked pretty nice. Gary Payton the second, second. Also, also looks as springy as he has since 2002. And, you know, the Warriors have a collective defensive IQ that

I think makes their defense real. So when you have buy-in, effort, talent, and an IQ where, like, especially in the first half where they were mixing up coverages, you know, depending upon personnel to me, which is, like, the hallmark of a real bona fide defense is like, we play Jason Tatum picking roles differently than we do Pritchard and we do it differently depending on who's handling it and who's setting the screen and who's the defender on who. Like the fact that they can make these calculations instantly, then they're like, all right, we're going to ball pressure.

Derek White here. We're going to ball pressure pressure pressure. We're going to lay back on Tatum a little bit here, try to go to them into two-point shots. Like, it's hyper high-level stuff. And so the defense to me is the realest part. Yeah, I believe in it being better. I guess the question is how much better will it be the season? Two feels like a stretch as we've kind of addressed.

Yeah, their schedule up until now has been pretty charming. But last night against the Celtics was a big old test. They didn't have Jalen Brown in that game. Obviously, Porzingis wasn't in there for the Celtics. They do have aggressive perimeter defenders in a way that they haven't before. Wiggins and Gary Payton and Dremond. And I think the one thing that I'm curious about, and Rob, I'm curious how you think about this, is it seems like they're getting a lot from that starting unit playing Draymond Green with Trace Jackson Davis together.

That seems to be a pretty formidable front court defense. I do wonder if the tradeoff on offense so far has worked in their favor. I wonder if that's long-term viable because you're giving up shooting. Dremont is shooting way above his head. Yet again, this is two straight seasons. But I'm not so sure that they'll get enough offense in order to keep that defensive group together. Yeah, there could be some issues there. But that's where having Steph back is such a huge deal.

And I think where the proof of concept while Steph was out was a huge deal, right? Showing that this team can win games with defense basically alone plus depth goes a long way in terms of figuring out, like how we're going to manage the season overall. if you can get through it with everyone being fresher, Draymond being fresher, Steph being fresher, as a result of running 12 and 13 guys deep as Steve Kerr is,

I would imagine just over the moon to do. Like this is how he would love to play. The Warriors roster has not always allowed for it, but the kumbaya vibes are as strong as they've ever been. The depth is genuinely impressive and incredible. And to get that much depth in a way that is like factoring into this defense we're talking about, this is not three core defenders like papering over everyone else's deficiencies.

Like, Buddy Heald is getting up and into people. And that's how you know there's some special sauce there. Well, Wads, I think that's why I'm bullish on Buddy because it seems like, as we've been saying, since the offseason, practically, they went out and got guys that fit the system in a way that makes so much sense. And to me, Buddy, yeah, maybe his shot will come and go as it typically does. Maybe he'll settle in around 40%. He still is, we should mention, one of the best three-point shooters.

in recent history. It's like Steph Clay and Buddy Heald. So this isn't a total surprise. He just seems to fit the flow and the energy that Steve Kerr wants. So are you surprised that he's had such success this early? Not really. Because what shooters tend to find when they play decks to Steph Curry is that it's nice. It's nice when the defense has to be paying attention to all his off ball stuff.

And it's harder to guard somebody else who's doing the offball movement. Now, like, he's not going to be as good as prime clay on offense. We know that. But can he be like the Urkel to Clay's Stefan Arkell? I think so. I think he can be that close in resemblance and, in fact, similarly to what Clay does. And, you know, what I like already is that buddy's not going to do a lot of the dribble, like, off of a pick and roll and shoot in two or three. That's not what he's going to do.

But, like, man, if it gets kids. kicked out to him the one dribble, side dribble, back dribble, just one dribble shoot, he's good, and just firing off of a screen, which he did a lot of, particularly last night. Like, he has that. And so I think he's well equipped to be, you know, a nice clay sort of hologram, you know, if not the real thing. He's one of these players who's always been a bit tough to place because if you put him in a pure role player capacity, like the Sixers did last season, he will occasionally pop off for a big game, but when he's not getting the ball,

when it's not swinging his way, because, for example, that's just not what the defense is dictating. He's kind of useless out there in some of those matchups. But when you get him moving and involve him heavily in, if not the overall offense, at least a second unit, you know, select lineups when steps out there or not,

then all of a sudden you're drafting off of a momentum that's more than just makes and misses, right? It's the attention he draws. And that's something that Golden State knows how to play off of as well as any team in the league. And so, yeah, you're getting some of this like Splash Brothers energy. I know there's some alternative nicknames in the works. We'll see which one ends up sticking.

But look, he showed up with the 23 and me. He said, biologically, I am a splash brother. I am ready to be a part of this. And he's been delivering. Steve Kerr is the father. Yeah, I guess. The fact that Draymond as the secondary ball handler has been doing this exact thing for 10 years now. Like, it's been 10 years of this.

Yeah. Like, I think that matters as well. It's like, Draymond looking for this guy, you know, re-screening on the break when Draymond gets a rebound and he's spraying out to shooters on fast breaks. Like, all of that stuff is going to aid in making Buddy a big part of this offense. And it's early in the season, too. So teams don't have this stuff perfectly scouted as of yet. And so, yeah, he's gotten some nice success from it.

So I don't believe that the Warriors will be the second best defense. and I don't believe that Buddy will be quite this hot all the time. But I do believe that they're going to be a defense first team this year. And I do believe that Buddy is going to be incredibly focal to how they survive on offense. Yeah, I was with Buddy when he was a rookie for the half season with the Pelicans. And he was narrowly forced into that standstill three and D role that a lot of players around that time, typically just instantly were thrust upon. And it was played for laughs when the Kings traded for him.

Vefaik was talking about him being like a step type. But I think history is kind of shown that he is at the very least a step type, not necessarily the next step curry. And to that point, the numbers between he and Steph, as we record this today, are eerily similar. Buddy is averaging 21.1 points. Steph is averaging 21.2. Buddy is averaging 14.5 field goals as attempt and 9.3s per game. Steph is averaging 14.6 field goals attempts and nine threes per game. Like it is kind of like the main band and then the cover band playing alongside each other. And it just seems like it over. Why would you ever do that?

Why would you ever do a show where the cover band is playing with the main band? Maybe you're just so into that style. Like if it's sublime and bad fish, you know? You're just like really deep into one style. And the Warriors pretty much are an outlier in terms of style. I'm really torturing this metaphor, but I'm really trying here. One would argue that the current version of Sublime is already a cover band, but we digress. With Rome, yeah, that's true.

It's a good point. Well, not only is Buddy the person who's kind of following after Steph or channeling his inner stuff in some ways. Are we prepared for the Kyle Anderson Splash Brother experience, which apparently is ongoing and happening right in front of our eyes? I did not know what to make of him suddenly becoming a three-point bomber against the Celtics, but here we are. This is where we live now. Yeah, I think Mike Brain mentioned that he was three of his last 14 to start the season. And so, yeah, I think that was just sort of regression closer to the mean there in the opposite direction of him, finally making some threes. But I love that Kyle Anderson is already a Kerr, you know, acolyte.

Like, he's just so plug and play to everything Steve Kerr's about. And that was nice, nicely on display last night, too. And against Boston, man, who's like, dad. down two of their best players and it doesn't even matter. Like the offense, especially in the second half when they made some sort of spacing adjustments, still look like a goddamn machine. You know, there was a good win by the Warriors. Absolutely.

Yeah. And we should also talk about the depth element with the Warriors. I mean, it's just kind of a thing happening across the league, but the Warriors probably represented best. And I thought it was an interesting contrast to the depth that the Celtics have because the Celtics have just pretty typical good depth. Like Peyton Pritchard comes out of nowhere, can't miss a shot. Luke Cornett, for all we say about him, is just a credible guy who could play 10 solid minutes if you need him to do it.

Kada was very good for the Celtics last night, just another guy. They have typical championship medal depth, right? The Warriors go beyond that where it seems like everybody's on an average to above average level. And when you're trading off players like Kaminga for Wiggins, there isn't really much of a falloff. And it wasn't much of a surprise then that the Warriors kind of blitzed the Celtics in that second quarter and took control of the game. Because their second wave and honestly beyond that into their second and a half wave because they're playing 12 guys in some of these games is so much better than the other team. It does help. And not only is it giving them more credible players against some of these bench players, but I also think it's saving Steph in ways that is advantageous to Steph.

It seemed like he was kind of doing a LeBron thing last night where he paced himself out throughout the game was more of a playmaker. He had seven assists, I think, in that game. Excuse me. He had nine assists in that game. And it just seemed like he waited until the end to pop. And he did have kind of that takeover moment, or at least he wanted to have that moment. And I do think that's beneficial to him at his age in order to have other guys around him to do more. Yeah, it's just what you have to do with your 36-year-old superstar was.

Like, you got to pace him out like that. You can't have Steph come out here and run a Tray Young level amount of picking rolls for 82 games. Like, that's, that is just, that's death. And so, yeah, this is the smartest way to do it. It's just to be judicious about Steph, you know, sort of manhandling the offense at every single turn and pick your spots with it. That's good. Yeah, and they weren't doing that last year. And it seemed like based on what they were trying to do over the offseason, roll players into a Paul George or a Lori Marketing, they weren't going to do it this year.

And maybe they will at some point, I do think the Warriors will hit their head on a ceiling and they'll need star power, especially as we get in. into the playoffs. I think the difference between regular season and playoff basketball is going to be pretty jarring where a lot of these deep teams get into a playoff series with like the Thunder for instance and they just have like a big three in the way that the Warriors don't. But for now it's working for them. And I think just having Steph around this recent minor injury be damned like I think it is going to matter and it's going to help them pile wins, which seems to be more important than ever in the NBA. Yeah, 7-1, best record in the West, or at least tied for it, just beat the Celtics with this minute load.

This is a resounding success for the Warriors' early season. And I'm honestly a little stunt that it's worked this well, that these guys have fallen into place so quickly. But some of it, as we said, have been the new additions that they brought to bolster the bench. And some of it is getting, you know, Gary Payton the second, back into form like while I was mentioned, Kavan Looney playing at this level again, back into form.

Like the resurgence among the existing warriors and how quickly the new guys have acclimated, I think it just made it for a really beautiful medley. out there. Yeah. And as we said before, the new guys are playing warrior style of basketball. One of the big parts of that is just pushing the math on a three-point volume. They didn't last night. They only took 34-3s against the Celtics. So credit for them for winning that without having to go bombs away. But they are one of the teams in the NBA right now that's really pushing it in that regard. 41 three-pointers a game at this point, which would have been among the best in the league last year. But now we live in a league was where the

Celtics are regularly taking over 53s a game, 51.2. This is the most three-point attempts we've seen based on league average in NBA history, 37 a game. Kevin Pellon had a staff the other day. 42% after two weeks of basketball of the shot attempts had been threes. That's over the previous mark of 40% a couple years ago. Let me ask you this, Waz. Do you like this? Do you like that people are pushing the volume this aggressively?

I think this definitely. a sort of diminishing returns when it comes to the volume of three-pointers. Like, I get it. The math is math, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's almost like running backs and football where it's like, I'm sorry. I really enjoyed watching Emmett Smith and Barry Sanders. I don't give a damn if it's more efficient to pass the football. Like, for me, like, I do enjoy watching guys put it on the deck and try to score more so than, you know, swing, swing to an open three.

Right. But it's not just that teams are doing it. I think the individual players like the Shays, like the Aunt Edwards, realizing like, yo, man, like it's going to be beneficial for me and my team to be taking more threes. I think that's where I notice it more because these are guys who are constantly downhill threats. Right. If, you know, when CJ McCollum finally started shooting threes, it was like, all right. He's just switching the mid-ranger to a freaking three-pointed.

That's different than Shea and aunt doing it. And that's what I think I buck up against it, where it feels like, you know, aesthetically what I'm watching from these guys, there's a change and a difference. And so, yeah, I'm not crazy about it, but I'm not sure how we legislate this thing out, which I also think is related to, you know, we were complaining about the 140-point games and all that.

They're freaking back, y'all. I want us to go back to the knock them out, drag them out from last January and February. I was loving it. Let's get back to that. Less threes, more slobber knockers. Get off my lawn. Thank you. Yeah, if you want to find the solution to addressing, I think,

some of the overall, like, stylistic flattening that's happening right now, where a lot of teams are playing this driving kick style. They are doing swing, swing into threes. I think a lot of that starts with allowing more physicality, with getting us back to that playoff standard where you can actually slow down the drive to begin with and then jam up the offense. Wasn't that the whole second half of last season

where we wanted to add more physicality? I thought it worked beautifully and now we're back. Like we're officiating at the beginning of last regular season standards as far as I can tell. O'KC Denver last night was, ugh, God. Get those memos out then. It worked so well the first time. I know. The points of emphasis always go off with that hitch as we know.

Yeah, I would love to see a little bit more defensive physicality allowed. Me personally, like, I'm not super bothered by it. To me, like, a pick and roll or an ISO into a three is about as good as a pick and roller or an ISO into an 18-foot jumper. Like, I don't see a lot of tangible difference stylistically for me. And I think it's easy for us to dwell on it because it's easy to zero in on, like, in terms of quantity. Like, you can look at the box score and say, oh, my God.

Anthony Edwards took 15 threes. That's fucking insane. No one looked at the box score and said, oh my God, T-MAC took 15 pull-up mid-range jumpers. There's a crisis, right? There's still a lot of downhill action. The post game is evaporating, as we know. There's not a lot of room for like really good.

Let me walk that back. There's room for great post-up players. There's not a lot of room for mediocre post-up players. And because of that, if you don't have great post-up talent, you end up in this sort of driving kick style. I can see that. I'm just not super, I'm not super stressed about it. It's still a driving game.

Like, Shea is still driving, still basically leading the league in drives, right? He's still going to the basket. He's just also shooting some threes. Yeah. The other part of this is, like, I get that homogenee isn't attractive when you're seeing the same style replicated across the league. You want to have different teams with different aspects. Like even like a different home crowd or like a different environment to play.

And that's fun. And it gives a variety to the more general NBA fan as opposed to the one team fan. But didn't we have that a different way? Previously, it's like when teams are physical and big, everyone just got physical and big. And I would rather have this where even like the maker miss of a three is more dramatic than someone just like powering down low, back, back, back, and then, you know, just trying to do it off the glass. So like the three to me is actually a more dramatic, interesting shot than what we had before.

And so if this is the homogene now, I actually don't mind it as much as I did previously when people were playing basically American gladiators out there. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, for me, sometimes it feels like guys are just like, might as well just be at a ball rack, firing up threes. Like literally just watching a guy, just take jump shots. And I think part of it, too, and maybe this is my own bias. I don't know if the average fan feels this way.

Like, I do still feel differently when I watch Derek White take a three than when I watch Chet or, you know, Big Al Horford take a three. When the out of... Anti-Bigman bias? Yeah, like a big man taking three still gets on my nerves. Like, get your big ass down there and do something on the block. Like, I think that's part of my own bias too. It's like who the three pointers are coming from.

And that goes for player to player team to team. And I shouldn't even say big out. Like, when the Celtics generated three, like, because I know it's what the entire point of their offense is, like, I feel like, all right, well, that was the desired outcome. This is a team playing, like imposing their will on the game. Right. When they get a three-pointer up. Whereas for other teams, it can feel like they're literally settling. And that feels cheap.

You know, and maybe, again, that's my own bias about how I feel about the way the Celtics run their thing as opposed to everybody feeling sort of copycat-ish. But, yeah, I would personally like to see the threes come down, 100%. There is something where the entire flow of the game seems to be pointing to a 34-4. three point shooter like role player taking a shot that feels a little bit unsatisfying. And I think that's what people are missing when they talk about the three point as, as it relates to the diversity of the offenses in earlier eras is like they miss an era where the best players could dominate the ball a little bit more, honestly, not in a

Luca James Harding kind of way per se, but in a way where they have more control over the flow of the offense. And they're able to dictate terms in a different way. And when you lose that, and some of that you've lost because of the rules and the way the rules, and the way the rules have evolved. Some of that you lost because of the way defenses have changed and the way they can zone up and basically force the ball out of certain star's hands at this point. It does lead to a different kind of game.

And I'm sympathetic to this perspective in this way. Like we have crossed a pretty crazy threshold, particularly with the Celtics, where they are taking now more than half of their shots from three. I didn't think we were ever going to see that. Like we've been kind of bouncing around the mid-40s, high 40s. Honestly, over the last fours,

years or so, the three point rate's been pretty flat, like fluctuating a little bit, but pretty consistent. Now we're entering into a slightly different territory with the Celtics specifically, but they also have the roster that's built for it and a roster that's very hard to replicate on a league-wide level. Yeah, I do think part of this little boomlet that we're experiencing to start the season is a lot of teams trying to take cues from the Celtics, know that the Celtics are going to push the math in the way that every team has to catch up to it. That's why it's not just the Celtics right now, as I'm looking at this nine teams, if we're around, rounding up, there's a lot of 39 and a half sort of teams. There's at least nine teams taking around

40 or more threes a game. Like that's basically a third of the league at this point. And so I do think it is typical copycat. And also like at a certain point, like you can't win on the highest level if you're not competing against a team like the Celtics. And so they're going to push it that way. I also think, Rob, your point about depth in like the role player is doing a lot of this is incredibly key because it seems like to be a role player in the NBA now. It's not like you're an, there are a lot a specialist out there. You're not just a rebounder anymore. You have a three to go with it. If you're going to be on a bench, it is to your benefit to try to be a three-point shooter, just because the mathematical advantage is so strong. And so I think all these benches are full of

three-point shooters at this point to the point where it's like, there's like two to three to three creators on a team, like the math is prime example where it's like Kyrie, Luca, and then Spencer did what he kind of does it. And the rest of the team is just three and D guys and shooters. And so, like, we're just stockpiling with the same type of guys. And as a result, we're seeing, like, a lot of threes and a lot of points. I actually think this is the way to think about it. Like, you brought up it as a skill in conjunction with something like rebounding, for example. We've just reached a level where there's a minimum threshold for three-point attempts for a team, basically. I don't know if there's, like, a hard number, but it's more, I guess,

percentage of the overall offense. If you don't attempt a certain number of threes, you're probably just going to lose. In the same way, there's a number of three. You're probably just going to lose. In the same way, that if you don't have enough rebounding on your team, you're just going to lose. Like we've been thinking about it as this discreet skill that only certain players can do for the vast majority of basketball history. We are in an era now where everyone needs to kind of be able to do it.

And maybe there's one big on the floor at a time who can't, but if you're not that guy, you've got to be able to shoot just like you have to be able to rebound, just like you have to be able to defend, just like you have to be able to put the ball on the floor now and again. Like, it's just part of the overall picture now. Yeah. And for me, again, I think,

a lot of this is off of vibes. When I watch the Nuggets who can barely, and they're trying their darnness, by the way. Some of these Strather shots, I'm like, boy, they coaching them up to shoot the threes. But like, when I watch the Nuggets go through their regular offense, I don't get itchy thinking, oh, God, a three hasn't gone up in four possessions. What the hell?

Like, it doesn't feel like that. It just feels like a team is going through the motions of how they want to attack a defense. Whereas, you know, when a team missed a team. is four brick threes in a row. It's just like, my God, please. Put it on the deck. Put your head down. Sack up. Get foul. Let's go.

But do you, if we're answering kind of the overarching question, are we believing this? Do we think like these sorts of extreme rates are going to continue route throughout the season? Or are we going to see sort of a natural falling off to where it's like maybe the Celtics and two other teams are pushing it. But it's really just kind of an outlier sort of set. Yeah, they generally don't hold up. Like these sorts of early season trends do fade a bit of. over time and teams will get in as they just get into the flow of their seasons they're going to find other means of offense I buy that the three point rate overall is going to be up a little bit

and I buy that people are feeling this like this is a real source of angst I think in the basketball community right now as far as what what the soul of the game is and should be and no one can tell you oh you're wrong for feeling bored watching three's like if you're bored you're bored and that's a problem for the league whether it's true for me or justin or anybody else or not like It doesn't really matter if individual people are okay watching this style of basketball. If enough people are turned off by it, that's something that the NBA kind of has to address. Feel your basketball feelings is what Rob is saying. Embrace them.

We're a feelings forward podcast. That's right. Well, one of the teams that's pushing the math right now are the Brooklyn Nets. There's putting up 40.1 a game. They're also playing pretty goddamn well. They're four and four at this point. They are currently fourth in the Eastern Conference, and now they are 500. Yeah.

Oh, actually, they're tied for third. I didn't even notice that the Pacers are four for as well. So the Eastern Conference, let's just say first and foremost, has two teams with winning records at this point. Two teams. Just absolute dog shit of a conference. And thus, the Nets currently stand in fourth. The Pacers are in third, but as I mentioned, they're both 500.

That means four teams, 500 or better, in the Eastern. conference. But Rob, I would say the Nets have been feisty in a way that is very noticeable. I watch a lot of these games. They've kind of become my new Hawks, who were my new Bulls. So I assume that they're just going to completely fall off the place of the earth after we talk about them. But the Nets are way more competent than I ever imagined. And I think it's more shocking that they're competent offensively with the personnel that they have. Like, they have some good individual scores. They have a lot of role players we really like. But if you were to tell me, surprise, the Brooklyn Nets are four and four, eight games into the season.

I would say, oh, well, clearly they're like flying around defensively. They're making it work. They're playing with a ton of energy, which is true. But really, they're leading with their offense first. And they're doing it in a way that is collaborative in that way, but also, like, there's no way around it draws on specifically Cam Thomas and Dennis Schroeder. Like, those guys are buoy scores in a way I did not anticipate. And also, this team, even when they go off the floor, is just like figuring

it out. This is a great team to talk about in the three-point conversation because they do attempt a lot of threes, but they have a clear downhill momentum to everything they do. It's a lot of high pick and roll offense for those two core guys. It's a lot of spraying out to these shooters, sure, but they have a pretty good balance right now between actually taking those shots and then just gunning it toward the rim, right? Like these wings are slashing in in a way that I think is really healthy for the way that the Nets want to play and healthy for the way that any kind of Celtics adjacent team wants to play. And for me, keeps it pretty interesting and keeps it pretty fun.

Like, I like watching these guys try to make moves off the dribble. And right now, they're really walking that balance really well. Yeah, they're playing with pride. Pretty much everybody assumed that they would stink to start the season. I'd be shocked that their coaches didn't express that to them. Like, every team that you walk into their gym looks at you as inferior and that they're going to roll you. And, you know, they've beaten Memphis twice.

They've beaten the bucks. They lost an OT to the damn nuggets. That was like a dog fight. Yeah. Yeah, they're playing with pride. Look, man, I love Dennis Schroeder. I'd love to see him get to an actual contender. I think he has, like, good playoff minutes.

Well, he's on the third best team in the Eastern Conference, well. Right. Tide for third. Sorry, Ty. I think he has good playoff minutes still left in the tank. But I don't know that this is going to last, so this is indicative of a team that's going to be like, fighting for anything meaningful over the course of the actual season.

But beating Memphis twice is crazy still. You're a big old not is what you're saying. No, not believe. Ripley's believe it or not. I do not believe. Can we believe that they are feistier than anticipated, but also not? Like, they're not going to be a playoff team. This is a fun-ass team.

Like, they make things competitive in ways that you weren't expecting. And those are kind of the best teams. And listen, if you're a Nets fan, there's a few. of you still out there, I'm sure. The one thing you haven't had is just like a breezy, competitive environment. And they have that up and down the roster. I don't think it's a surprise that they're playing this well. Well, it is a surprise. It is a surprise. It's definitely a surprise. If you watch the games, I'm not surprised based on the process they take where it's like a lot of teams still figuring things out. The Nets have a very clear approach where, as you mentioned,

Rob, it is downhill, spray to shooters. And we're just going to be long on defense. I do feel like where they are in the standings on offense and defense will flip-flop at some point. Because to me, this team seems like it's geared to be a pretty credible defense, considering how long and athletic they are at virtually every position on the court at this point. Have I been sending text messages about Noah Clowny and how good he's looked thus far? You're goddamn right I have. But in particular, I've been talking about like a Claxton Clowny Zayers Williams lineup, where these guys look like they're like have seven, five wingspans, all of them.

And now they might weigh 100 pounds between the three of them. And so they could get pushed around by a Nuggets team by like a Lakers team down the road. But like I see it. Like they pick the right guys. The Nets do they always have. They did before they went the superstar route. And so it's not surprising, I guess, that they're finding little guys and bringing more out of them. Because this is what they always did well in the Sean Marks era.

Yeah. They have a lot of NBA talent. There were the guys we knew and the guys we had already talked about. There's also just like like Jalen Wilson looks like he. can really play. And I know he had little flashes of that last season, but it's clicked more so for me this year. The shot, I think it's kind of wait and see, but I really like how he plays in the flow. And I like how all of these guys play in the flow. You mentioned Zaire Williams. Keon Johnson's had some really good flashes. They're just throwing guys into the mix there, and they do have a lot of

length. I will say, as far as like whether they're going to be a potential defensive juggernaut, very wispy length. You know, the kind of length that if you exhale too hard, it could, it could blow Nick Claxton over potentially. That can work to a point, but is going to be a little bit more difficult to manage against certain kinds of competition. I'm very impressed. I'm very impressed by the level of competition.

I'm very impressed by the depth here, which I think is just flat out better than I expected it to be. And you have to give your flowers to someone like Cam Thomas, who has just been like one of the best crunch time scores in the league at this point of the young season. Like, he is a guy who's always been crafty.

Cam Thomas. These are the two. Yeah. These are our lords. He's averaging three assists the game, which is, you know, equal to... White years. It's equal to Cam Johnson, but, like, way more than I would have expected. And I just love the fact that Rob, you know, he described the Nets roster as, like, a bunch of guys in the form of that floppy, those floppy air things that you put in front of used car dealerships.

That's the vibe. But minted as a compliment. I love that. Kind of. It's the kind of compliment that gets you to four and four, but maybe not to eight and eight. You know, I think we're expecting some regression from them.

I think it's good for them because what you want to do is showcase some of those three and D older three and D wings. They have like many generations of them on this roster. It's like, hey, you interested in Dorian Finney Smith? I was playing pretty well. I don't know if you've seen this game against the net, the grislies the other day.

It's pretty good. So I think it behooves them. I do think they might need to trade some guys because I also think if you want to be thick in the tank race, I think you need to be on like the jazz level. And right now they're like three games up on what the jazz are doing. And so they're going to get there. They're going to get there. Not worried about that. Not worried.

But you know what? We said that about the jazz a couple of years ago when they started stacking early wins. Right. And we're like, oh, well, they need to lose more and it took them too long to tank. That's fair. They probably should. And I think Sean Marks is smart enough because. unlike the jazz, they don't own like every single thing going forward.

But like, shoot, like, I think Sean Marks is smart enough to know, like, it'll be time to pull the trigger and they'll get something good for, you know, whether it be Finney Smith or Cam Johnson or Schroeder or any of these guys. I take all of these points. Cam Thomas is not Lowry Marketing. You know, like that's not what's happening here. You didn't think Lowy Markin was Lorry Marketing. I say not just you.

I think every single human who watches basketball. That's fair. And Cam Tom, like, Cam has legitimately been better than I thought. And I want to say this about the assist thing, because we do bag on Cam for taking lots of shots. Me personally, I'm never going to love Cam Thomas shooting 20 times a game. It's just like not for me. And I'm learning to accept that about myself.

And I'm also learning to accept who he is. Because, like, I genuinely do not think he's a selfish player. He's just one of these guys who is wired to think and see the game in a particular way. And it is basket first. And honestly, for this team, they need some of that. They need someone who's going to force shots because Dorian Finney Smith isn't going to do that, right?

Like Nick Claxton is not going to do that. You need some guys who are willing to force the issue. I want to give all due credit to him for doing that in a way that I think has been actually pretty healthy for them so far. So you're saying it's not premeditated selfishness. It's just like natural. He doesn't know what he's doing selfishness. Some people are just oblivious to the world around them.

And is that selfish or is that oblivious? Well, that's a good segue to the Los Angeles Lakers. the next team on our docket. We're launching this conversation because Anthony Davis is leading the NBA and scoring 32.6 per game. This is better than I ever thought AD can get to. I thought his days of being an MVP candidate

were gone. They might still be if the Lakers keep playing the way they are. But like the Lakers are kind of fascinating here for a lot of reasons. He didn't play last night against the Grizzlies, a game in which the grisly take very seriously, including John Morant, who I guess

scrubbed his image, but now has to is just like outright just kind of punking LeBron on the court and kind of being a dick, but that's fine. It's a whole other story. I think people like that version of Jod, to be honest with you. I think it's the more honest version. Yeah, that's the more honest version. I'm actually kind of glad for it. But like Nike trying to package him as something else is just like, give me a fucking break.

Anyway, uh, was the Lakers. Take this anywhere you want. You want to talk about Anthony Davis is scoring or the fact that they can't defend anyone without him. I'm buying AD as a score. but, hello, and I said this a thousand times. Sorry, Laker fans. Darvinham was not the problem, okay?

He was a problem. He was a problem for the guys. Lower case, a no, no, no, no, he was just a problem. No, no, he was just, no, he was just a problem. He was a problem. He was not the problem. I agree. Okay, and, you know, everybody kept called Darwin.

He's a moron. He broke up this juggernaut of a lineup and blah, blah, blah, and why did he break it up? Because Austin Rees and DeLoh were getting smoked to start the season on defense specifically. In the last four games, the defense has just been putrid. It's been horrible on the ball. And that's what Darvin Ham was dealing with when he was jerking guys' minutes around because he was trying to develop some form of a defensive identity. We get it.

You guys found your scoring touch in the playoffs against teams like Memphis and Golden State and that lineup was nice, but you still got to guard people. And yeah, man, the defense is going to be a problem so long as you're starting Dilo in Austin Reeves. Like Austin Reeves isn't horrible, but when he's next to Dilo,

and those are your only options in terms of, you know, putting up resistance against high-level dribble penetration, you're going to have problems. And John Morant, I mean, goddamn, This is the dribble penetration nightmare of the NBA. And so it's no surprise that it was more a mincemeat last night, man. Some ground lamb kebabs out there last night were the Lakers.

So Rob, does resistance 2.0 look a lot like resistance 1.0? Is that what we're saying? Same as it ever was, Justin. Some things really do never change, including the Lakers perimeter defense, which I agree, is, playing with zero force right now. Not that I expect DeAngela Russell to play with a lot of force in that particular regard. But when AD isn't out there, like he wasn't against Memphis, there's just nothing to save these guys right now.

And so I believe to segment this out on defense, you really need Anthony Davis out there to bail out a lot of the people on this team. Even your better rotation players really, really need his help in coverage behind them. On offense, I think the Lakers have a pretty hard time scoring without him too. They have more options and more weapons, but JJ reorienting the offense to focus on AD to me was not just a good move and something that that's the kind of thing Darwin Ham didn't really do. It was a matter of necessity. Like they have to play that way.

And so if you're talking about him as a potential scoring leader, I think it has some legs and some juice because what else are the Lakers to do? Like LeBron is one of the best facilitators in the league, but there are going to be matchups where the scoring is just kind of muted for him. And that's okay. Like, that's, that's who he is at this stage in his career. That's who he should be. And I like Austin Reeves as a second or third guy playing off of AD.

So really, who else are they going to turn to if not him? Yeah, I don't want to diminish what AD is doing because it has been pretty remarkable thus far. It's not only what AD had been in this Lakers version, the just like supremely athletic roller, like the best version of a center you can think of in the modern NBA without some of the frills that other guys pick up like Jan is driving the ball or guys who could stretch out there. He was just like so like streamlined and efficient in the way that I think you could really appreciate this year. He's adding a little bit more without sacrificing that other stuff.

He's getting to the line a ton, which frankly, the Lakers do a lot. And that's probably a problem the NBA should look at. But AD clearly is a type of guy who could who could draw those foul. He's leading the league in that. But also the stat from NBA University that I saw the other day is that his floater is also becoming a major part of his game, 1.3 per game last year. There was 71st in the league. this year, 3.4 per game. That's fourth in the league. 66.7% he's shooting from the floor. And so, like, if he has that little in-between game,

it's not like the mid-range jumper like he had in the Alvin Gentry Pelicans era, but he is doing something more in the middle. I think it is just gives him another weapon that's going to open up everything, not only for himself, but for everybody else in the Lakers. Because as we're talking about, they need it. Because these are a lot of offense-first guys. And if they're not hitting, if DeLo's going through that first half of the season's stretch where he's just not,

shooting over his gourd, like this team does look pretty dire on both ends as opposed to just being dominant on offense and just bad on defense. I genuinely don't know where they would have been, like, if not for Cam Reddish in that game against the Grizzlies, for example. Some of their other role players have just been really flat. And there have been games where you look at their bench production and it's just not there. And so I think they have a lot of players we like in theory, but a lot of them are streaky, a lot of them are flaky.

A lot of them are on and off kinds of players who will wow you one night and be completely invisible the next. And that's where things like the free throw attempts for AD, I think, are really meaningful. Not just because I, look, the Lakers do get a lot of calls. That is a real thing that happens in the NBA. I think it also represents him getting the ball and being aggressive and getting over the mental hurdle of having to attack in this way. Something that I think has always been a bit of a battle for AD where he's wanted to be a certain kind of score, but as a big, it's a little difficult to do that. You find yourself relying on either, like, those sorts of like longer mid-range jumpers or post-ups that can be a little clunky and don't always have the space.

The floater that you're talking about, Justin, is a great, elegant solution to that. Like the one-legged kinds of runners he's been able to get off over other bigs, great. His willingness to go through and over and attack people and get to the free throw line, that to me is what says this guy is kind of ready to be this sort of score and to carry the kind of load that, frankly, the Lakers need him to carry. And when you know you're being featured, it allows you to, take a more holistic approach to your attacking, where it's like, okay, I did that,

the defense did this, I'm gonna do this, and then, like, he can throw out a bunch of different things because he's getting all the opportunities to best optimize what he wants to do. When it's like, all right, I'm only getting but so many attempts, and they're gonna be one kind of attempt all the time, like, you know, you're not as dangerous. And I love that.

I think, you know, some of the problems I'm looking at our little rundown here. And Max Christie, a guy who's stock I've been high on. Can I give you the stat? Yes. So Brani's on-court net rating is minus 26.2. And that's in 13 minutes, right? Leave him alone.

Leave him alone. That means if he played a quarter of basketball down 30 after a quarter. For 100 possessions. Yep. A game down 30. So that's minus 26.2. Max Christie is minus 24.2 in a hundred and twenty-eight minutes. I know it's early this season, small sample, yada, yada.

128 minutes, that's not a tiny sample. That's been really bad. And so, like, I actually think Rui Hachamura has been such a stabilizing force. Him not being out there last game means a lot at this point. Like, on both ends. It's like, I don't think. think he's going to give you pop. He's not going to be elite at one thing. He just fills a lot of gaps

that this team needs because what they need is just stabilizers in order for AD to be brilliant, for LeBron to chip in when he's able to and be that like just dominant force and spades. And so like, it gets pretty dire pretty quickly. Just repeat that sentence that Rui Hachamura

has been a stabilizing force. He's taken a leap this season. He's taken a leap this season. One could say. That's a crap narrative, just I don't know where you're getting that narrative from. I think they're a prime candidate for a trade. I kind of think about them like I did in preseason. It was nice to see them pop to begin with.

I do think JJ has a noticeable effect on the offense. They just play hard on offense sometimes. I remember in that Cavs game, they were just running through in a way that you typically don't see from most NBA teams at this point in the season. I just think they need something else. Otherwise, I think they're going to revert back to who thought they would be. They should call the Nets.

They have missed Dennis Schrooter since the day that they traded him or let him go or whatever. They missed Dennis Schrooter. They did bring him back, didn't they? Am I misremembering that? They did bring him back for a spade, yes, and then they let him go again. I mean, so it goes, you know, life in cycles. But if you really love that, if you really love each other, he will come back to you, Los Angeles Lakers, I promise, in time. You hope.

All right, let's go to the next team on the docket. the Houston Rockets. Believe it or not, the Houston Rockets are a top four team in the Western Conference. Right now, five and three,

plus seven point differential. That's third in the West. Fifth in the NBA, Rob, I think I believe, I think I'm ready to love again with the Houston Rockets. That's so funny,

because believe it or not, Justin Ferrier said the Spurs were going to be better than this team in our preseason power rankings. I don't think that's going to end up being true, unfortunately. I don't think so either. They waxed them last night.

Oh, absolutely waxed them. It's also kind of insane. They've already played each other three times so far this season. I don't know what's going on with that. Get it out the way. But I would love to space that out a little bit. And I think it does maybe distort some of this slightly, right? The Rockets are clearly better than teams like the Spurs.

That said, I am like perilously close to believing this. I am. If you want to move the line slightly and say the Rockets as a playoff team, as a top six team, I think I might be ready to believe that, at least in that idea. Four seems maybe a bit ambitious, even if we account for some Golden State regression, even if we account for teams like Minnesota or Dallas, like ticking up over the course of the year, Denver ticking up as they already have kind of proven themselves to despite their injuries so far. Other teams will get better.

I just think that the bones here for Houston have been really promising. And the larger concerns we had about making all the pieces fit, there's some evidence of that in the vein. of like Reed Shepherd just not playing very much. I also just haven't seen a lot of evidence that Reed Shepherd is ready to contribute at a super high NBA level just yet. He gets picked on every second he's on the floor. I think defensively, he's kind of in his own category

relative to a team that is really stout on that end. And if anything, my optimism has been buoyed by, look, I'm not struck by how many Rockets lineups I love with Amen Thompson and Tar Heeson on the floor. I am struck by IMA Udoka also seeming to love those lineups and playing them a ton. That is almost the defining look for them right now is Jalen Green, those two guys, Fred Van Vleet, and whichever big makes more sense for the matchup.

That's a tough group, and they are defending the hell out of people. Yeah, I love that E-May has taken on a challenge of building a stout defense around Shangoon, because I think that was the major knock on Shangoon's game. It's like, how do you heavily invest in a center that you're constantly going to have to make adjustments for to field competent defense and EMA just leaning in the idea to like, yo, I got mega athletes on my team. These guys can detonate at any freaking time. And that's how I supplement, you know, my big man's deficiencies.

And it's working. Like, I was kind of suspect that they could put together a stout defense. Like a good offense. I thought they could have the base for that. Like, there's enough talent on here. And Shangoon is such an operator on offense. that I'm like, all right, they could put a good offense around what this guy does. But defensively, yeah, I don't know.

But the fact that they've just been like, you know what, man, let's just play to our strengths in terms of the youth and the high motor and energy level. And now he's getting these guys to have attention to detail and execution. You know, hats off to EMA for that. That's big. Yeah. And they've been able to strike a balance in a way without necessarily changing anything about them. like they were a defense first team with a bad offense last year. Right now, they're fourth on defense,

seventh on offense. And if anything, they've been able to blend those two together without even relying on the crutch of Fred Van Fleet, who happened to be like the caretaker last year. Like, maybe he wasn't their best player last year, but he was their most important. And if anything, he has been largely a pretty big negative for the team this year. He played really well against the spurs last night, 21, 10, 7, and 2. It was great to see. But you could definitely see this team moving pass and needing him where it's like, I think Rob is right. I think the team is a lot of young, fast, just like switchable defenders, a man in particular, Tari-Eason in particular, but also filters down to like Jabari and all those guys. And so I think not only are they good right now,

they have the potential to be even better, not only because of internal growth with some of these guys, but also like, I think you could trade Fred almost immediately and probably not feel anything. I think like we talked about the Rockets of potential maybe aggregating some of these guys in order to get like a Kevin Durant or a star in there. I think there's also a kind of a middle tier option where they stay who they are and then add

somebody else with the Fred contract plus picks. And so they have a lot going on for them right now. Yeah, this is where I get a little bit nervous because I do think the sort of training wheels on the offense that Fred provides sometimes is genuinely helpful for them. Like Jaylon Green I think has largely been

pretty sensational. I've been really impressed with his shot making and his creation. That's right, Rob. I'm back on board. He's been terrific. But there are times where it's like, how comfortable what I feel if this guy was creating everything. How comfortable what I feel if,

you know, like, either, because if you're going to trade Fred, something's got to give a little bit. Either you're playing Jalen at point with more wings. You're giving the ball to Amin Thompson more. He's not ready for that responsibility. He's basically more of a big right now than he is a traditional guard. Or you're dramatically uping Reed Shepard's

minutes. And so I would want to slow play to little bit. Like, let's let Reed get ready and up to NBA snuff. Once we feel like that is comfortable, then it's time to trade Fred. Because, yeah, the shooting hasn't been there. He hasn't played all that well. Again, short of that Spurs game, which he like could not miss a fucking shot. But the security blanket of having a guy out there who even though he hasn't been shooting well, teams do guard, means something. Having a guy who makes generally pretty good decisions means something, who's going to compete defensively means something. It's like he's the sort of balanced option who isn't fatally flawed in some way that makes me feel more comfortable having

him out there, even if he's not playing great. So Jalen Green right now in terms of ownership of the offense reminds me of like, you know, I don't have any kids, but like when I go to my friend's crib and like the toddler is like, oh, they're eating the spaghettios with the spoon by themselves. Wow, that's impressive. Like, they can just feed themselves. And then you turn around for 25 seconds and there's just red sauce all over the kid's entire clothes. Like, that's how I feel about Jalen Green. It's like, yeah, he could put some, do some spoons and hold it by himself for a little bit, but you can't just, you know, plop him in front of the TV and expect that everything is going to go perfectly, right?

Like, you definitely need Fred Van Vlee for those times where, all right, you know what? Jalen Green is cooking. Fred can easily slide off the ball. And his range goes so far. Like, the spacing is just going to be beautiful, right? And Jalen Green is taking half of his attempts from three. making them at 38.8%. That's, whew, we're getting to where we need to be.

We'll take that. He's putting his pants on by himself. Yeah, he's doing a lot of things up there. He's even picking out the socks that he wants to wear. Same kind, yeah. I have trouble with that, to be honest with you. You know, it's complicated. But he's not getting to the line yet in the consistent manner

that we would need from a superstar. But like, listen, the fact that he's getting the attempts up it's accurate and defenses now have to respect that. That's how you get to the road of, you know, making your drives even more efficient. Again, I still don't think that he's where he needs to be obviously on a playmaking tip, right? But he's getting there and he needs the reps.

But yeah, Van Vleet definitely, you know, he's like the safety on a gun. You know what I'm saying? Like, you still need that there, you know? We're getting toddlers and guns in the same conversation. I'm getting very nervous. This is what America's about now. Well, yeah, it's very true.

And I think Dylan Brooks is part of that conversation too, right? There are matchups where he's pretty essential. And in particular, if you want him like bodying bigs as a wing and you want to play a slightly different style, he's really important. There's obviously also games where he goes completely off the handle. And I think what we're seeing is the shift in who the essential personnel for the Houston Rockets is. And increasingly, Amen Thompson and Tari Eastern are in that category. And I just think that their best, most exciting basketball comes with those guys on the floor. I think the days of Tari Isson playing 15 minutes, we got to throw him out.

Like he's got to be in at least the 20 to 25 minute range. And if anything, the stress point, in addition to how much do you need Fred and how much do you need Dylan Brooks? How are these bigs going to feel about this situation overall this season? Like how is Shangun going to feel by February when he's still not finishing a lot of games? And Jabari, the same thing. Like there's going to be matchups for each of those guys. There's going to be matchups where they're just not useful. Like Shangoon has had games where he's just not productive enough

to justify having him out there for the style that the Rockets are trying to play. That works great right now when everything is rolling, everything is working. Everything about the Rockets makes sense. When things start to, you know, percolate, when a couple losses start rolling in, I think the grumbling intensifies a little bit. And that's where I want to see kind of what are those guys comfortable with their roles being because I'm sure they both envision being part of the future of this team in a really significant way. And we'll have to see if there's room for both of them to do that. Yeah, the rockets are almost

like shedding their skin in real time. And so we're watching them almost carve out who are the essential players while winning games. It's like one of the most weird like combinations of like timelines happening simultaneously. But it isn't at this point crossing over, but it might at some point. And I think Cam Whitmore, unfortunately, seems to be an odd guy out. So if we're trading people from this team and if you want to go ahead. Cam Whitmore seems like the odd guy out and I just hope for his sake like he could be playing for 15 teams in the NBA. We just talk about the Lakers. Like if the Lakers had that bench juice from him like an athlete who could just get down the floor and just dunk over guys like he

would mean so much to them. The Rock is just having in reserve and they can't find minutes for him because Ysen and a man have been so good in that sort of type. So many guys. Not too many guys but there's so many guys. One too many guy at this point. You think so? If they can't play Cam, like, what are you going to do? I just think, like, too many guys is not really a problem when you're winning this many games, right? Too many wins right now.

That's really the issue. That's right. Last thing on the docket, the weirdest one I think we're going to talk about. Maybe one of the weirdest topics that we've broached in a couple of pods here. The concept of an NBA closer. And so shout's to Tom Habistro for not only pointing this out on the broadcast the other day, but also writing it up very quickly, I might add. Just like the deadline skills on that guy, still got that muscle memory. Rob, take note of those. We all have different skill sets. Tom is just cranking that shit out. You know, that's not my strength.

I'm more of a shangoon at the end of the day. I want to be a little more methodical. I want to take my time. Let me cook. That's true. I am like a Delano Banton, though, because I'm really coming on strong at the end. but I don't think anybody, not only me or anybody in the NBA, can touch what Banton is doing right now, scoring 48 points this season. All of them have come in the fourth quarter. And if you watch the Blazers game, they typically don't go to Banton until the fourth quarter because he isn't a regular part of the rotation. The Blazers, not a lot of top heavy, a lot of top talent, but they are pretty deep.

And so their second wave is basically their recent first round picks. And so they're going to play through them. Banton gets whatever scraps are left. And so oftentimes, they'll turn to Banton in games. It's happened with the Sons, and it happened most prominently with the Pelicans game the other day. They just throw them out there because they're getting toward garbage time, see what can happen.

He has been absolutely electric and has been one of the best closures in the NBA. So, Wes, what do you think not only about like what Bantz doing, but the concept of saving a guy until the end like a baseball team, throwing him out there as a closer and order, I guess in this case, they wouldn't be preserving a win. It would be more flipping the late game situation and so they get back into the game. I think it makes absolute sense on the level of a team,

I mean, a sport in which you have to play 82 games, that you would selectively sort of points a player at a problem and be like, do you have X amount of minutes to execute, you know, whatever. it is, whether it be guarding somebody full court, you know what I mean, just guarding him 94 feet or attacking the offensive

glass, right? Or you know, whatever the case may be, like you assign somebody to a specific task and you tell them to go at it full throttle for their designated minutes. Like, that sounds like a dream scenario

in a lab. However, because these are human beings, like over the course of a season, like to tell me, like, I only get to play X amount of minutes and I have to extend myself to the fullest extent in those minutes, doing a certain tasks, like human beings want to feel like they're a part of something, you know, in a bigger way and egos get involved. And that's why I don't know that you could deploy this, you know, in a more broad sense over a longer course of time. But the concept, absolutely. make sense and I've brought it up before

with Jason Kids approach to the big man rotation in Dallas where it's just like, listen man, you can't get these seven foot dudes to play 36 minutes of, you know, planning guys on the screen, roll hard every time to the rim, make every single rotation, every single possession. Like, you can't ask any of these dudes that are seven feet to do this for 36 minutes.

But shit, man, maybe I could do it for 24 and I got two of them to do it with. So I think it's that sort of idea applied more, you know, in a micro sense. Yeah. I mean, I think we all want to believe in this. Yes. I think what I want to believe in is more creative use of the end of roster spot, end of roster spots, whether that's a Dolanoban type,

whether that's a particular sort of veteran that you bring in. Like every team has their own philosophy often in the modern NBA. It's like who also is represented by the. agent that our star players are represented by. Like, who do we want to kind of glad hand here ends up being a lot of the transactional game? I get it. I understand why that happens. I love this sort of strategic balance of Donovan is out of the rotation, as you said.

I think what Tom points out, and rightly so about one of the quirks of this is like, the reason this hasn't happened before is most of these guys get elevated. Most of these guys get promoted. If you play this well closing some games, like a coach will at least throw you some regular rotation minutes in the follow-up game. and now all of a sudden you're coming off the bench as part of at least the second unit. That hasn't happened yet. I would think to the extent that this gets blown up,

it's not because Delano Band will suddenly become a dramatically different player, but because, oh, now the Blazers are playing him more in the second and third quarter. Now he's a part of what they're doing in a different way. But the concept of someone coming in and playing with a different level of energy, and this is kind of an extension of the depth conversation we've been having so many times in so many ways right now is like, how do you take advantage of that? How do you take advantage of the speed and energy that could come with a 12th guy in the rotation, a 13th guy in the rotation, whether he plays in the fourth quarter or not.

And I think what works in Banton's favor is it's not that he's a slow player. Like he has a burst to his game, but he is a knuckleballer. Like he's a weird player to try to contend with. And so to have, you know, the whole game played one way. And then you think it's garbage time, but this like funky off speed creator comes in, I think it could mess all your shit up. And if you have that kind of guy on your roster and he's not playing regularly, let him shine. Like, let him cook see what he can do, not just in the sense of, oh, can we promote him into the regular rotation?

But could this be a tactical advantage on the second night of a back-to-back for us? Not a coincidence that he has popped against teams that are mostly top-heavy, the Suns in particular, but also the injury-raverage pelicans who are just scraping by with like Brandon Boston minutes. I do think this goes hand in hand with a depth conversation where it's like the, Blazers go very deep. And so those garbage minutes, you're playing against guys not only who are supremely talented in like a Scoo Henderson or a Donovan Klingin or or like even a Chris Murray, but guys who have motivation to play as hard as possible in those minutes. And you're seeing the balance strike there where it's like you can't really take time off. It is to Waz's point about

the centers. We're just doing that across lineups at this point. And so the end of games are starting to matter more. And I harken back to what we were talking. about with Kirk the other day in terms of the thunder's rotation and their depth and how they deploy it and how they tend to use different lineup combinations in part to throw off the opponent. Well, not playing Banton for so long and not knowing if he's going to come out, then all of a sudden getting this different player out of nowhere, like, it is jarring and you have to adjust to it and you're at the game when guys are tired. And also, like, you're just expecting to coast for the end. It seems like I would have to really look into this, but it seems like we're not coasting.

as much. And if anything, the game is getting harder. I know we talked about physicality being met it out of late, but more recently, the points of emphasis changed to put more physicality in there. Like, the second half of seasons are compressed in a way that typically they haven't been in recent years. The pace is up. And so there's just much more wear and tear on the body. So it's not surprising to see guys lose juice in games if you are a eight deep team. And teams that are 12 deep all of a sudden come back and just storm into the game and Bannon's just kind of an example of that. I agree.

To Waz's point about the ego element of this, I don't think this is a job in the NBA. For sure. And it's an incredible fine by Tom and like a genuinely arresting thing to watch in this early. He's like watching Delano Bann do this has been exciting in a way that I did not

think Portland Trailblazers basketball could be exciting. I'm very glad this is happening. I'm very glad that he pointed it out. I just, I think, I see it almost more of like a special teams thing was where it's like this is the thing you assigned your like young receiver or cornerback to do and then at a certain point unless you're like the best at to literally ever live you're going to kind of graduate out of it so i think this is also an addendum or i don't know an a version i don't know the word to use um on the concept of the traditional six man right it's like jamal crawford like it's not that you're not a good score and can't play

on the starting lineup, but you're not good enough to be featured here. But against these bums, oh yeah, we can feature you. Yeah, yeah. When the bums come in on the second unit of the other team, yeah, you're absolutely able to be featured. And so because the league, like, second units are just so, to me, that's the biggest difference between now and 15 years ago.

is the second units of teams, it's just way freaking better. Like, I don't think that Shea Gilgis Alexander is way better than what T-MAC was in his prime. I don't believe that. But, like, the guys that played on T-Mack's bench, compared to who's on the Thunder's bench, compared to who's on even Indiana's bench,

like, bro, like, it's just way better. And so maybe, yeah, the advantage is getting guys while they're tired. not that they're bad, but they're lesser versions of themselves. And we now get to deploy, you know, somebody who's being the best version of themselves because their motor can be deployed at, you know, a way higher level. Like, I fuck with that, actually. Damn, shots fired at Boki neck bar today.

Just, you know, sitting on his couch somewhere, taking a stray. He just felt like a twinge in the universe. Team Mac had a great bench in Houston. Are you shitting me? I was a down where refined. There we go. I also wonder, though, if this advantage that we're all talking about with being deep compounds over time, too, because let's take a top heavy team like the Suns, for example. Like, if you're throwing KD back out there to play 10 hard minutes at the end of the game because the reserves threw it away.

Like, what if that keeps happening month over month over month? Like, if anything, the torque on those guys is going to compound. It's not going to lessen. And so to harken back to our original conversation about the Warriors' depth and what that means long term versus a team that's more star-studded. I do wonder, like, yeah, I think if the Thunder are playing eight guys and those eight are just lock solid, that's going to matter more. But if you're eight are playing hard minutes throughout an entire regular season, if you're the Sixers, a team that tends to be injured and is injured again in new and exciting ways as we record this podcast, is Tyree Maxie is going to be out? Like, is that just going to be more of an issue as the season trudges along as opposed to less? Because I think a lot of times teams were building in order to get to the playoffs, that was already hard.

hard and you see teams build depth as a result of this, something like this adds to that problem and it actually makes it almost impossible to be top heavy in a way that, like, maybe not the Sixers are, but like, you know, certain other teams out there. Like maybe the big three model, for example, just can't exist anymore if we're going to be this deep with players who are not only good, but play hard. I think it also staves off the sort of like erosion of trust. I think part of the problem when you are a Joelle Embed, for example, historically, is every time you sub out of the game, your team bleeds points. And what that does in terms of how you think about your teammates, like who you're

willing to pass to, how you feel about the overall ecosystem of the team, you're just going to be more confident of it if you don't have to keep coming in with five minutes left because like your guys couldn't finish out the fourth quarter without you. Yeah, if you're going to have a big three, they better be extremely complimentary. They cannot have any redundancies because if they're complimentary, that means you're covering all of your bases. You know, you don't have, you know, duplicative strengths, um, anywhere. And so like, you know, the team is more well-rounded and whole.

But if it's just like, yeah, we're just piling talent. Like, I don't know, like Brad Beale and, um, and Devin Booker. Like, I don't know. Nugs. Like, you know. Russell Westbrook is very important to the Nuggets team right now because he has the same effect for them. Like, he wants to fucking rip it every time he's on the court.

And you see what that energy does. does to a top heavy team that absolutely needs that at this point, if only to buy time for their younger guys to get the reps in order to be helping players. The young guys are definitely being invigorated by what Russ does. They want to run with him. They want to play high pace. Like,

it helps the young guys. I don't know that it's helping Yolkish that much, but it's helping the young guys for sure. Obligatory Payton Watson shout out. Game saving block. Let's fucking go. I have to brick in a free throw a two. But, hey, we got to take the bad with the good. Completely. The universe leveled

itself out, you know, ultimately still still in the net positive for Peyton Watson. Well, I was going to say that this big three doesn't need death because we can plow food. But, Waz, you did take the podcast off really this week. Oh, I want to give a shout. Matter of fact, big shout out. Yes, big shout out to Francesca and Joseph who got married. I thought you were going to give a shout to Kirk, but sure. Also your friends who got married.

Francesca's my friend since I'm 14th, freshman year of high school. So to see her get married was beautiful. Yeah, Shouse to Kirk's Goldberry, Goldsbury, new teammate, and filling in stepping up when needed, man. That's what it's about. We go at least four deep on this podcast. So we'll see if we make it past December. But tune in for that. All right, that's it for us.

We're actually off on Monday because of the holiday. So we'll be back next week on Thursday the 14th. So check us out then. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We will talk to you next time.