The Ringer NBA Show - Biggest Takeaways From the First Week-ish of the NBA Season | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 29, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos join to discuss their biggest takeaways from the first week of the season. They start by exploring what’s going wrong with the Chicago Bulls and hypothesize what moves could be in their future (4:20). Then, they talk about the Pistons' impressive first week and what’s been working for their defense (19:11). Later, they express their worries and injury concerns about the Phoenix Suns (51:33). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jack Sanders Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if you got scammed? Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it? Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did. I'm Justin Sales, the host of the Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer, and for seven episodes, we're hunting a comment, a guy with a lot of aliases, a guy who's ruined a lot of weddings, and with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him. Listen to The Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Group chat, I am Justin Barrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Gentlemen, the NBA is back. Was is live tweeting. Everything is right with the world. I was really excited about Dane's first game with the Bucks and just watching, honestly, Philly's first game without James Hardin. It was just fun, you know, fun stuff all around. Just exciting way to start the season, honestly.

really exciting start of the season and exciting that we get to diagnose it here together yet again on a beautiful Sunday morning. I just like a little extra quality time with my favorite slob wizards, you know? You're the master's

slob wizard, I would say. I'll take it. Oh, boy. Lord of mercy. Shouts to John Hollinger. Yeah. Just king shit from John, honestly. But also king shit, I must say,

on a very different note, from our friend Waz. I have to ask you about this cat architecture you have invested in as the cat daddy yourself. Can you please walk our listeners through what is now a fixture in your living room?

So I'm one of these people that if I get an email from Uniclo or if I get an email from Wayfair in this case about a sale, I'm going to check out what the sale is. And Wayfair sent me a sale about these cat, this cat furniture.

And I was like, $70 bucks? I mean, it seems like a steal. Like, this thing at the Petco around the corner from my house would probably cost like $200. No lie. How tall is this thing? It looked like five, six feet tall? It's like seven feet tall. It's like...

The Vyneumina. Yeah. It's gigantic. Yeah. It took me an hour plus during which I was sweating like a pig. at various points in which I installed this thing by myself. But yeah, the cat is really loving it. At first was just like, whatever,

I'm just going to chill on the first floor hammock, but now Mimi's just doing everything with this thing. I wish the audio listener-only people right now could see just how enthusiastic Rob is about this cat city that was constructed. Yeah, it was crazy. It was really, really crazy. Like, first of all, so the box comes to my door

And like, you know, you order stuff online. You don't really know what you're going to get when it arrives at the house. And I'm like, damn, this is a big ass box. What is this? And it's heavy as all hell. And then that's when I saw the Wayfair. And I was just like, oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Yeah. Hour and change putting this thing together. There was definitely a point yesterday where I was like, I could probably take one of the floors down. You know? Like, make this thing five and a half feet instead of seven feet. plus. But yeah, the cat is just really, really into it at this point now. Well, let me feel it out before you start downsizing. You never know which floor is going to prove to be the most essential. Exactly. What a perfect metaphor for the start of a brand

new NBA season. There we go. Am I right? You never know what floor is going to be essential. I guess the floor in this case are teams or players. We'll figure it out on the fly. But we have assembled here today, second week in a row on a Sunday, to go through our our opening takeaways from the first week-ish of the NBA season. We all came with three apiece. Let's just dive in now. I think I have to start, if only because the first team on my list has certainly been the busiest team over the past couple of days, and that is the Chicago Bulls, who have

had perhaps the most interesting, most chaotic one-and-two start to an NBA season that I can ever remember. And so in their first game, which they lose to the Oklahoma City Thunder, forces the quickest players-only meeting, perhaps in history. Game number two against the Raptors was a complete vomatorium in which I had never seen two teams try to throw away a game at the same time. Somehow the Bulls come on top of that. And then they play the Pistons, a game in which Zach Levine scores 51 points, but zero assists. Legendary. A real throwback to 90s basketball.

And then yet again, after the game, we got a, oh, we need to figure this out sort of vibe from the principals there, to Marta Rose and Zach Levine. So I find the Bulls interesting, not only in that regard, but for two reasons, bigger picture. One, they're kind of a litmus test for some of these younger teams that are trying to break into the play and field, if only because we expected the Bulls to be kind of in that mix perpetually, unfortunately. and so like if they're not going to be as good as we think, like maybe the team like the Pistons

who we'll talk about later could break in. But also you got to start wondering, Rob, if the Bulls are kind of the dark horse team, maybe in the James Hardin mix, maybe the Malcolm Brogden mix, because if things get so dark so quickly, it seems very clear that Zach Levine, first and foremost,

might be advocating for some more help here. He certainly looked like he needed it against the Pistons. It was jarring watching that Chicago Detroit game on Saturday night, I think in part because the Pistons just had so much clearer an idea of who they were and how they wanted to play. And the Bulls, aside

from Zach Levine just going off, which I have to say, Zach Levine, in the flow, on fire, just one of my favorite players to watch in the league. Like, an incredibly smooth jumper, such like an aesthetically pleasing game. Yet they got 51 from him.

And the Pistons were in control. The Pistons were holding them off at arm's length. And this is a Bulls team that as you said, Justin, like we expect to be kind of trustworthy in their mediocrity. Sure.

Something doesn't really smell right here. I don't know exactly how they got to this point, but it feels like they were kind of trying to balance out their offense and defense a little bit over the summer, and they wound up not being very good at either at this point, which is a huge concern whether you think James Hardin is

a solution or not. Yeah. I think the lack of playmaking sort of sticks out, right? DeRosen is their best passer by far. It's not even close, right? Even some of the guard-sized people like Kobe White or whatever. Like, he's not going to be setting you up

like he's John Stockton. It's Damar de Rosen and nobody else. Zach Levine, you mentioned the zero-sist. That's never really been his game, this sort of playmaking sort of role. It's like he goes out there and he tries to fill it up And he's been damn good at it throughout the course of his career.

But again, I don't, I'm not that surprised, right? This is a fairly older team in the core. None of their young guys have taken a huge leap forward in so much as they even could. I think, you know, I think the Patrick Williams situation. I think we're done with that as a concept and as an idea. And so I'm not surprised. And we're going to get into the Detroit part of this game too. but like this is what it is when they re-up Vucci Maine.

And I don't know, some people were like, oh, what a nice little deal that they got with the Vooch? And I'm like, what is this supposed to do for them? How is this a step forward for the team that basically, you know, hung around to playing all season long last year? I'm not seeing how any of this is supposed to change, given the personnel. Yeah.

It seems like though they're still stuck in the middle in a very weird way because that starting lineup is the old guard. It's Vooch, it's Levine, it's DeRosen, guys who do not move at all on offense. And then the younger class is now starting alongside them with Patrick Williams and Kobe White, both of whom scored zero points against the pistons while Zach Levine had 51.

I agree with Waz. I think the Patrick Williams situation is pretty much kaput. At the very least, he probably needs a fresh start or at the very least needs to be. diminished to a backup role at this point because that's not working. And then... Pat Williams from the reports and the rumors out there, not looking for backup roll money, I think we can confidently say.

He is chasing a big check. Good luck with that one. Yeah. But even Kobe White, who I think definitely has an impact on the game just by how quick he is and how dynamic he is, especially in comparison to someone like DeRosen, who's just much more methodical, even Levina at times.

but very clearly Zach Levine is not a fan because at the very least one of my favorite things in general with the Bulls is just watching Zach Levine when Kobe White has the ball and there was one instance in the Raptors game where Kobe White was pounding the air

of the ball Levine throwing his hands up like what the fuck is going on here and so I think that something needs to happen and the big like issue here is that when Alex Caruso comes off the bench and even at times when like Javon Tori Craig, who don't have probably enough offense to really be a starter. There's definitely a shift in the team that's noticeable.

And I feel like at a certain point, like, I don't know how they don't even just start Alex Caruso, let alone, like, maybe reach for a trade for Abrogden, et cetera. It's mystifying why this is their starting lineup. Like Kobe White, I think has shown like real development over the course of his career so far, really stepped up in terms of being like an individual shot creator looking for his own offense. That's a sixth man to me, right? That is a prototypical, bring him in off the bench to spell Zach Levine and DeMarre de Rosen, make him your secondary offense and plug in, whether it's Caruso, whether it's Javon Carter, like, however you want to play that. Because as it

stands right now, what's shocking was about DeRosen being their best playmaker is they don't actually let him playmake very often anymore. This isn't San Antonio Spurs, DeMar, we're just like wheeling and dealing. There's just a lot of Kobe White initiating offense. And obviously in this one, there's a lot of Zach Levine going off on his own. But why does Damar not have the ball in his hands anymore? So that's the thing. I think what Zach Levine is frustrated by is like you look at Kobe White and he's a point guard. He looks like a point guard, but he does not play like one.

He's a score first kind of guy. And that's why I think ultimately his destiny should be sprucing up the offense of bench lineups. I don't think he's your starter. Because again, it's not as if he's going to go. and be head of the snake point of attack guy on defense. And then, you know, on offense, he lets everybody else play me. It's the opposite. He's like not doing anything on defense.

And then it's like, all right, do this thing that you're also not good at, which is setting up people on the offensive end. He's obviously miscast. He should just be coming in and trying to fire. You know, I feel like over the years he's developed his diversity of shot making. Like, he's been a decent movement shooter, a decent. and pull-up shooter. Obviously, he's always had the spot-up game.

But, yeah, it's obvious Caruso should be in it. Given his back court mates, right, whatever you want to call Damar, I guess he's a forward since he doesn't shoot threes. But, like, Levine and Damar need to have the ball. And so Caruso, a guy who's an off-ball cutter, of course, going to take the plum defensive assignment as far as whoever is the most ball-dominant wing on the other end to relieve those guys. He seems like the obvious answer to how those guys play.

But, you know, I don't make as much money as Billy Donovan. So, you know, maybe he knows something. We don't. What he did seem to know was that he wanted Kobe White defending Cade Cunningham as the primary option. And like Kobe White fought like he was, he competed. But if that's what you're going to ask him to do, why is Javon Carter, who's a much better defender on that spot?

Why is Alex Caruso, who's one of the best defensive guards in the league, not in that spot? It's mystifying because right now, this Bulls team was a top five defense beyond explanation last season. Right. Right now, they look really soft and backfooted all the time on defense. And this is a team with, as we said, Caruso, Carter, Ayo Dissumu, who plays with a ton of energy and gets into it, Tori Craig, another high effort defender. They force some turnovers when some of those guys are out there. that's really all they're doing defensively.

They just looked hopeless in containing the juggernaut Detroit Pistons. I cannot say it enough. And by the grace of God and Alex Caruso, they managed to squeeze out that one win against Toronto. That's really all they have going for them. But I just don't understand how these matchups are supposed to work. Again, against Detroit,

there were times where Zach Levine was guarding Isaiah Stewart on purpose. And Isaiah Stewart's just like, okay, I'm going to duck in right under the rim. and get a layout. Like there are guards you can do, like if you put Drew Holiday, if you put, you know,

Marcus Smart in that situation, guys who are feisty and we'll fight for steals and entry passes, sure, but like, Zach Levine's not built for that. By the way, guards who are out there

to do that very thing. Right. It just seems like they're constantly fighting against what is the actual identity of this team, which is, as Rob alluded to, like,

the Caruso Pat Bev backcourt that, like, provided so much of that perimeter defense. And before that, the Lanzo Ball, Elks Caruso duo that like just really energize that team. And like to a certain extent, we should mention that Lonzo ball injury might just be the fatal flaw, the Achilles heel of this team that they might not ever overcome. But I do wonder if they do something rash now as a result of this

because Levine is upset and De Rosen's on an expiring contract. And so I don't know, was, do you think that there's any salvaging left of this team? Do you think it is worthwhile even to keep going forward? You're already pot committed. Let's just actually keep going into the red, trade forward. a hardened or even in worst case, like a Brogden as like a stop gap. Do you think that makes any sense? Are you like, no, actually, you should go the opposite way. Let's rebuild already. I mean, I've been thinking opposite way, honestly, for a little while now. Because again, if the concept is that you're going to keep Levine at his number, Damar, and Vooch, then that means you're going to be, quote, unquote, trying to win. So what kind of player do you even bring in?

And quiet is kept, man. It's not like the Rinesdorfs like to break out the greenbacks here. That's like they're one of the cheaper ownership groups out there. Go to that stadium. It's not exactly in tip-top shape. They don't like putting money into the team. So if you're going to tell the ownership group who's already not the most free spending group of people, that, yo, we're going to chase the AIDS.

and be on the upper echelon of payroll in the NBA, that seems like not the best proposition. So, and again, you know, people don't remember this, but I do. They weren't, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming into that Levine deal. They weren't happy about that. And for this, and to their credit, I will say that, for this very reason, it's like, so we're going to pay a guy that much money who can't even take us, guarantee us a six seed? Really? That's what we're doing. And that was that was the argument

they were trying to make through the press when around the time Levine got his deal. And, you know, I think the skepticism has been borne out. I don't see how you can see it any other way. So the idea is they're going to add salary to this team, added James Hardin, who again, is unhappy with his team because they didn't give him a big deal? I just, I don't know, I find that hard to believe in. Brogdon. Do you really think Brogden makes a difference on this team? Has he been making a difference in Portland? It's probably a band-aid on a broken leg.

Yeah. You know, like, I just don't see it. I think it is time to just sort of sell this stuff for parts and try to keep it pushing. Here's the issue. I agree the more productive way is down rather than trying to move up. Like, they should start to tear this thing down. The Bulls have been pretty mediocre.

They have made one playoff in six years. they are just a couple years removed from being like a regular 22 win team. So it's like everything that they've built here has culminated in one postseason series. It can be very hard for organizations

to look at that and say, okay, we're going to tear it all the way back down to studs again. And we're going to go right back to being an 18 to 20 win team and hope we get the right luck with the lottery and hope we get the right guys

with those picks. Because as we saw with Pat Williams, sometimes you get the wrong guy. You know, sometimes you're in a, where there are good players in that draft class. There are players who certainly outperformed Williams. It just has not worked out.

And I'm not saying it was a bad bet out of the gate. Like Pat Williams had a lot of supporters around draft time. There were a lot of believers in what he could do. And he's had flashes of being a high-impact player. It just didn't work out. And so the idea of rolling back into that kind of lottery game and hoping that you don't hit Pat Williams kind of luck again, it's a tough bargain, especially for a team like Chicago

that should and could be doing, better. Sometimes you draft Hashim to beat, you know. Hey, watch it. It's a Yukon legend, man. Who I have to say, even going into that draft when people were like, oh, yeah, he's so good. I was like, this dude cannot even catch a basketball. Like, I used to make jokes about how that guy's hands were made of flubber. God. Yeah, I can definitely see them doing something here. It is a little complicated, just math-wise, to get hardened in the mix there, just because Kobe White is coming off of a new contract. Williams is still do a rookie extension,

so his money is low. So it is complicated, but they do have two first round picks off in the future. And man, I hope they don't do it because I agree with you guys. They probably need a wholesale rebuild, but I could see it happening. But maybe we should turn now,

Waz to the other team that they played the other night, the Pistons, because a much different story for our friends in Detroit. The bad boys are back, baby. You know? No, I will say this, though. It's been cool to watch. this start of absolute competence.

It's easy to forget because of how dismal last season was, but we thought they were going to be respectable last year. We did. We tried. We tried to wish this into existence. Yeah, they were the trendy, fun

team last year. But Cade went down, and obviously, the season went up in smoke, and he's looked good. I think he needs to get them turnovers down. He's close to, like, five a game damn near. but, you know, he's eight and a half assist the game,

about around 23 points. The three ball is falling early in the season. So he's looking decent. But what they're doing is they're doing it on defense. And to Troy Weaver's credit, if you've listened to some of the statements that he's put out when he's talked to the press, it's been about, yo, we're going to put a great defense together.

We're going to put a committed defense together. Defense has got to be our identity. That's what's going to get us to respectability. He's been pounding that for a while now, and this thing is coming to fruition. Obviously, we get it. It's a very small sample size, three games, but they are a fifth in the league and defensive rating right now, right? The 101.1.5 defensive rating, that is excellent.

They are suffocating guys, even against the Bulls. Like, the Bulls shot 40% from three that game, and they still couldn't get anything going, right? Kept them off the free throw line. These are the hallmarks of a sound smart. defensive basketball team. And I say this to you all the time, Justin. But when Monty Williams was in New Orleans, nobody was calling him Brett Arr back.

Like, in fact, people thought he was downright bad. That was his reputation. And, you know, basically since then, in Phoenix and now in Detroit, he's shown himself that he has grown exponentially as a coach and getting buy-in from these guys. it's a great story when a team could come from where Detroit has been to being like, all right, this is a team that's going to give you a goddamn game every single night. This is just great stuff, Rob.

It's cool to see Amani Williams team play very differently than his last one, right? Phoenix, very fluid, democratic offense. Detroit is basically running like very heliocentric, Cade Cunningham, pick and roll, pick and roll. That's what I'm saying. He is acknowledged. We have this exceptionally talented pick and roll player. We are going to ride him. There are some spacing issues that come with that,

and those are contributing to a lot of the turnovers you're talking about. You know, the defense is working right now, Rob. Don't worry about the state. The defense is working right now. And this is what's interesting, right? Like, teams take after their best players in lots of ways. What's interesting about Detroit right now is Kade is more a cerebral player than he has, like, a bursty athletic one.

But, man, Detroit looks athletic as hell. they, Assar Thompson, Jaden Ivy, Jalen Duren, like, these guys are flying around and like, Isaiah Stewart. Genuinely, like, kind of a freak athlete in his own way, given that he can move the way he does at his size. But you just see like next level athletic plays from them. Assar Thompson, the way he moves through the lane, he does that thing that ridiculous athletes do where it feels like they're gliding as they go to the basket. Right. Dejante Murray always feels this way to me. It's just like the fluidity of movement and the burst of speed that they get when they're going to the rim. It's just so smooth.

And, you know, Jayne Ivy is out there like trying windmill dunks getting rim checked on windmill dunks. But I appreciate the audacity. Like, Troy Piston is attempting an in-game windmill. And so it's very cool to see the juxtaposition of Cade manipulating and slow playing these pick and rolls and finding guys. And then all these quick twitch athletes around him. It's working really well so far. It's almost OKC-esque, there I say. I wouldn't go that far.

Let's sit the bar a little bit lower there. But I think Assar Thompson has been really surprising to me. Just because, I mean, we don't do any draft prep. We kind of figure out these guys in the fly during their first season. But the way that they were billed as Amen Thompson was kind of the playmaker. Assar Thompson was the guy who was the finisher. He's the guy who's going to do a little bit of everything. In a way, I've only watched the one game of Amend Thompson.

But he seemed a little bit of a man. lost in his first game, in part because that's probably his role is used to being the initiator of an offense and driving offense. Asar just seems like he's instantly integrated himself by doing a little bit of everything, flying around. I think he had 12 rebounds in that Bulls game. He's averaging about 11th. He's averaging in the opener.

Yeah. That's insane. He's played three games so far. He has 32 rebounds. Like, incredible. Just a rebounding, defending, ball moving wing after my own heart. Like, it is so fun to watch him play. Yeah, and what a perfect compliment to what Kate is giving them as that steady pick and roll operator, like you were saying. Yeah, and again, we don't need to harp on the fact that Isaiah Stewart is right now their most consistent three-point shooter. Not going to harp on that.

Yeah, what do you think about that long term? Because they did the double big thing, but it's working a little bit better than I ever expected. It's working for now. It's working for now. Yeah, I think honestly, it wouldn't be as big an issue. if it wasn't the double big thing and starting Killian Hayes at the same time, who is contributing

zero offensively right now. Like, you know, can be a good pressure defender. He's playing his heart out on the ball, Rob. It's magnificent. I think I'm going to be shocked if we don't see some kind of lineup change once, inevitably, the pistons hit, you know, a little bit of a skid offensively.

You know, it's a little crowded. The shots don't fall. The defense regresses a little bit. bit against a tough opponent. I think we're going to see a change at some point. I just don't, I don't get that combination. I'm more in on Stewart at the four than I am Killian at the two. You got to be.

You want to talk about Jalen Duren, so this is a natural transition. The floor is yours, Rob. I mean, dear Lord, like, this is a teenager. Again, a literal teenager turns 20 next month. Looks like an absolute monster. leading the whole league in rebounding right now, shooting 80% from the field.

A couple of blocks, couple assists per game. Of course, some young guy turnovers, like all that stuff is happening. I think it's just the leveling up for Duren between last season. I thought he was impressive. He looked promising.

He was successful, like successful almost in a vacuum where it was like this discreet thing that's happening on a bad team. And it wasn't really like contributing to winning. It wasn't facilitating to anything else. Now he makes incredible finishes, obviously.

he's the other primary half of all those pick and rolls. He spends basically have possession just screening for everybody. But he's at the center of this offense in a way that's like, oh, the gravity is starting to pay off. Some of those shooters are open because people are collapsing around him. Like, Cade is getting better opportunities because defenses are having to respect him. And he's finishing over and through,

like pretty good contests, to be honest with you. So I'm just, I'm very excited to see where Jalen Duren goes from here. It's exactly what you want to see in a young player from taking this like very specific but kind of immaterial production to something that feels a little bit more real. Yeah, I remember when I was 19, I looked exactly like that. Yeah. I was ripped like a bodybuilder. I was jumping out of the gym like Prime Amari Stadamire. But like good God, this guy is incredible. And like I think you, you mentioned it there. Just like his feel for for hitting the pass off the roll is also pretty good. I think he had three assists within the first six minutes. Yeah.

against the Bulls. And so not only is he Cades' like prime target and a very clear vertical spacer who can make the most out of Cade's best skills, but also he could do a little bit of himself. And so, yeah, I wasn't expecting it this year this quickly, but good Lord, he's been incredible. I think defensively, too,

we're seeing some real growth from a guy who's a naturally good shot blocker, as you said, an exceptional athlete is always going to have that part of him that wants to chase after blocks, but you can see the gears turning for him in making more just like honest vertical contests and not over pursuing when guys try to drive him.

So it's going to be a work in progress all season long. Like he's not the anchor of an elite defense yet, no matter what Detroit's play has been so far. Like it's going to take some time. But the building blocks are here for him to be a really impactful player on both sides of the ball. And so much of, I think, what it took to lock that into place is just having Cade back.

Like having that level of playmaker changes what Jalen Duren means to an organization. And that plus Duren's own growth, I think we're just looking at a very sharp trajectory from here if everything hits just so. And I think we get a little bit too excited every time a big makes one freaking high low pass and like we pretend that he's freaking Vali Dvok.

Who me? No. Right? No, but he's doing different stuff. Like he's finding guys on the short roll in the Dunker spot and things like that. Like, he's doing legit skill work, you know what I mean, floor game stuff at his age, this point in his development that you should be really excited about. And again, because we typically don't see guys with biceps his size doing that kind of stuff, man.

So I understand why people should be excited in Detroit for sure. Shout out to biceps. You know, it's about time somebody stood up for the people with big biceps. God knows Ben Wallace couldn't hit. nobody on no short role. Well, speaking of Biggs with preternatural passing, I feel like this is the time to talk about our Lord and Savior, Ben Simmons,

who I regret to inform the haters is back. At the very least, back to being a useful NBA player. I'm not sure an all NBA is ever going to be in the offing here, but in the game against the Mavs in particular, he looked like the Ben Simmons that I think everyone was hoping to yet, never the All-Star, but the guy who is just so damn helpful in so many ways that he's clearly having a positive effect on winning basketball. I know that's damning with faint praise

to a certain extent, but good Lord, after the past couple of years with this guy, is just awesome to see him defending Luca Donchich, defending Donovan Mitchell, looking spry and athletic, moving the ball, getting things going with handoffs. Now, would it be great if when he gets into the paint, he didn't have the wide eyes of someone who had just... seen their mom walking in on them when they're beating their meat. Yes, that would be great. Wow. Because he gets, sometimes he'll just get there and you're like, oh, you are the most athletic, probably biggest guy in the floor. Just dunk over this guy. And it just doesn't happen. And so I don't know if that's ever going to change. But everything else seems to be falling into

place, the near triple doubles, the almost 10 points. But like, I, for one, am encouraged to see. what we've gotten thus far. Never felt more connected to Ben Simmons in my life, but please continue. Please continue. That's all we needed to mend the bridge between you and Ben Simmons. Just a relatable anecdote.

I, to him, encouraged, he's played fairly well. I also knew from the second I saw that Nick Claxton was out and Ben Simmons was starting as a point center that we would never hear the end of it on this podcast because of you, Justin. So, congratulations.

for living up to your reputation. It was good. Here's the thing. Yes, it's nice to see him guard Luca Donchich. How many points did Luca have in that game? Luca made four of the most outrageous three-pointers in the end of that game that I've literally ever seen. Sometimes.

The last one he made was kind of an one-footed hook shot to win the game. And so, like, they were in that game. They probably should have won. 30-foot flailing one-footed hook shot. Like, absolutely insane. I don't blame Brooklyn for, losing that game. Like they were down several rotation players.

The situation was what it was. Luca went off. It's crazy. I did think it was interesting that even in that game, a good Ben Simmons game, the Nets were taking him out in the last few minutes, in part half-court offense, but also like don't we want him for these big defensive possessions.

And that's, you know, it was kind of the same thing in the season opener against Cleveland too. The Nets needed a stop coming out of a timeout. Donovan Mitchell is going to ice him. who do you want on him? It wasn't Ben Simmons because he wasn't in the game. Then the Nets called their own timeout. We need to score.

Who's going to get us one? Who's going to create a shot? Not Ben Simmons because he wasn't in the game. When you have Cam Thomas on your roster, you kind of have to get out of the way. Literally the world's greatest living score. Right. I think it's nice.

Ben Simmons, owner of a max contract, has made himself worthy of NBA minutes. It's nice. He's, okay, Congrats, Ben Simmons. You're a person who can be allowed on an NBA court credibly for minutes at a time. He's a serious person now. Yeah.

Yes, he's more serious than he was. But to Rob's point, it's like he's looking his best when you're not allowed to play your center because he's out. Right? Like, that's tough. That's a tough thing to square for a guy who doesn't play center, who can't play center. Not that he doesn't. He's not capable of being your center. I thought those were probably the best center minutes we've ever seen from Ben Simmons.

He allowed the Nets to switch everything to play a defensive style that, you know, it didn't slow down Luka, but it did slow down some of the supplementary math stuff. Like the lob threats were kind of neutralized as a result of some of that. So, yeah, nothing like exceptional from him, but being able to even plausibly play center in a game like that, even if it's opposite Dwight. Powell and Grant Williams and guys like that. It's something. It's something. Yeah. And I would also say that like, I agree with Waz's point, which is like, it's almost near impossible to find the optimal setting for Ben Simmons to even be okay. Like, it took the Nets basically compiling every interesting above average three and D guy in

the league on one team in order to have the switchability and everything in the shooting and whatnot in order to cover all of his deficiencies. But he happens to be on that team. and he's playing okay. And so, like, at the very least, it's better than I think it was. So there's like a few guys, right, who play really credible sort of rim defending defense. And don't mind as seven foot two guys staying at the three point line. It's like Miles Turner, Chris Staps, like, I got nothing. It's not a long list.

Beef stew. Victor, Victor, Wimbingiama, a freaking rookie, sure. Like, but the amount of six. centers who don't mind, and I don't even know that that's even true of people like Chris Stabs, or even Miles Turner, because remember, he's been talking about, I got so many ball skills and all of this stuff for years, like, who don't mind staying out there forever so that Ben Simmons can sort of explore the studio space closer to the rim. Like, it's tough.

But, you know, when Claxton goes out, he can be his optimal self, which, look, the optimal Ben Simmons, I don't know how optimal that is for winning basketball, but that's neither here or there. It's nice to see the guy actually, you know, not be a pumpkin. You know, happy Halloween folks. Brooke Lopez, we should say too, just because there's some bucks fans screaming in their car somewhere. Yes. But here's the thing. Like, not only are those guys hard to find people who will be content to park themselves at the three-point line as Biggs who can also be rim protectors. Like, Brooke Lopez, is content to do it.

But he's like just below the level of 3.2 you would really want him to be. Like he's good, he's credible, but he's going to hit in that like 33 to 35 kind of range percentile-wise. Right? Like the really good shooters are usually too skilled to only want to stand

out there. And so it becomes his catch-point two very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So now let's never watch a full Ben Simmons game and only digest him via highlights and don't look at his stat lines. and just be proud of what he's done this season. I know that's what he would want us to do.

I actually am legitimately proud. Like some of the, some of, you know, plays he didn't have to make, right? There's the plays that are going to lead to highlights, but just stuff like one that comes to mind, like, dead sprinting out to the corner to try to contest a Josh Green three, right? Like, that's little things that ultimately

most people will not notice, but are really meaningful. Not only in terms of how you perform in a game, but like showing your teammates like I'm willing to do this stuff. Like I'm, I know I have an all-NBA All-Star level pass,

but like I'm starting from the ground up here and like this is, this is what I'm willing to do for this team. Rob, do you want to go again with your next one? Yeah, I mean, let's flip just across the city to another Jalen.

I'm bringing three Jalens today. I learned that there are a lot of Jalens in the NBA right now. We're going to Jalen Brunson, New York Knicks, Jalen Brunson. Kind of an up and down start so far for New York overall. I think we can get into that if you guys want to,

but really one thing I want to zero in on. Two of Jalen Brunson's highest volume three-point shooting games of his entire career have come in the last week. Very interesting for a guy

who's like so much of an interior guard, right? We associate with like getting into the lane, bumping guys, using footwork, getting to that floater. His three-point attempt rate is just up so much.

And some of these games, like attempt like 12-3s in a game, which is just incomprehensible for the player we know or thought Jalen Brunson to be. But it's been interesting seeing kind of where those shots are coming from. One, I think it's just like a willingness to catch and fire more quickly and probably an encouragement by the coaching staff than what he has historically been. A lot of that's coming in transition to, which like the Knicks getting out and running is nice,

especially if it can facilitate those sorts of shots. But really like defenders don't respect him the way that they probably should. Like there's a lot of going under screens for Jalen Brunson, miscommunicating and leaving him open. doubling Julius Randall in the post and leaving Jalen Brunson open. And I have to say I'm a little confused by it because Jalen Brunson,

although he doesn't have the reputation as a shooter, like this is a 40% three-point shooter. And the attempts have been low because he's a little smaller so the shot is a little harder to get off. I think the book on him has been if you can contest late, you can convince him to put the ball on the floor.

But now what he's doing is he's doing that like I'm going to space the floor from three feet behind the three feet. point line. And he's hitting those shots. And some of the, some of the interior stuff isn't working for Brunson yet. The Knicks overall, I think, are still kind of figuring themselves out. But that's interesting. For a guy who's coming off a career year already, and if he's going to continue to hit at a 40% clip while also shooting more threes than he ever has before, I mean, if he doesn't get in the All-Star game with that, I think something is wrong with our voting process

at some point. So to me, this speaks to a guy who's trying to basically raise the level of his game. If you guys remember, Dame Lillard did an interview where he talked about playing against Houston. And he's like, I think I'm having a good freaking game. And they're just, Hardin's just bomb, bomb, bombing away at us. And they're beating us by 10, right? And this is the fake interview that he has been. Oh, my God. I know we want to talk about, let's say, we're going to talk about Dame later.

Let's save that for the Dame section. But again, Dame is a guy who came into the NBA. with a three-point reputation. And he felt like he need to take his game to the next level. He needed to take more threes, right? And so that's what is happening to me with Brunson. He didn't make the All-Star team last year. Obviously, he wants to provide more winning basketball for his team.

And he's clearly identified this as a place that, yo, we can make some gains here by me just shooting more. Just imagine that. Oh, my team gets back. when I shoot more. You know, who doesn't want to hear that? But especially for a small guard, like so much of it is how do you shoot more, right? And for Dame, it was so much off the dribble.

I think Brunson has shades of that, but also no assist pairing in the league this season has produced more threes so far than Julius Randall to Jalen Brunson. And that's what thing, you know, we take a lot of, we express a lot of skepticism about Julius Randall on this podcast.

I will say, this is something he has done very consistently. He is right up there at the top of the league year after year in terms of Biggs who create threes. It's, you know, Janus, it's Draymond, it's Yokic, it's a bonus, it's Siakum, it's him. That's kind of like the class of Biggs who do this on a very consistent, a regular basis.

And so the fact that Randall is attracting a lot of attention, I think Brunson is understanding how he can play off it even better. So what I'm hearing is he's actually thinking ahead. And so when that's Joe and Bede kicking out of double teams, he'll be ready for those. Now, now we

They're talking. Of course. Of course. All right. Wise, you want to go? Yeah. I talked about Dame Lillet.

I've been talking about Dame Lulid all summer, all year, damn there. Just the first game against the Sixers, the proof of concept was just there. Like having the ball in Dame's hands at the end of the game instead of Janus, or let's face it, Chris Middleton, who couldn't even be on the floor at the end of the game. Usually his in-between game, pick and roll game, shot creation was their best crunch time offense. And now it's Damien Lillard. And again, they haven't even figured out there, Janice and Dame dribble handoff game. The pick and roll isn't as crisp as is going to be.

That damn double pick and roll that they do that they've ripped out the first game. The Clippers play, yeah. It is nuts, okay? Just to see, because Dame didn't get a camp in, he's not in, like, peak shape yet either. And just to see what he could do in the first game, it just, you have to be excited as a Bucks fan to know how the Bucks have gone down in the past, like how they lost in the past. And to see Dame do that against the Sixers, a legitimate defensive team, that was really fun. Some of the big shots, again, he's not going to make those every single game, but he's more than capable of it. And to build an offense around defenses knowing what this guy can do from 27 feet out and you got Janus, this is really exciting stuff.

And so for me, man, that opening game, just seeing Dame go nuts in that second quarter, I believe it was, where he scored like 14 and three minutes. And it's just like, they never had this. and now they do, and it's really exciting stuff. That was a game that Milwaukee loses any other season. Yeah. Like, Janus is not scoring well in the half court. The role players were like doing their part, but they weren't hitting an overwhelming amount of threes.

They would put Milwaukee over the top. And Middleton, as you said, like, because it was ramp up and the minutes limit, just like wasn't in the game. That's kind of scary, by the way. The fact that this dude is at 16 minutes on opening night is like, Jesus, dude. You have to hope that that's them kind of slow playing it, knowing, I mean, he is crucial. to their season. Absolutely crucial

to their season. So hopefully they're just being a little conservative in trying to ramp him up. But when all of those things have happened historically, the Bucks lose. They lose a game like this against a team like the Sixers. And because of Damien Lillard, they did not. And it really is that simple. This is

a good staff from our friend, Kevin Pelinat, ESPN. Yannis was a minus 13 in this game. The second worst in a Bucs win since his emergence as an MVP. That's because Dame was a plus 13. And so this wasn't because Janus was bad, which he was not.

It's just because Dame was playing the minutes that Janus was not on the floor for and Dame is so goddamn good that those minutes are actually a plus now. And that's the thing. We've talked so much about them in the pick and roll and how they're going to benefit each other. I don't think we've given enough air time to the fact that when Janus is out

and rests, now you just run a Damien Lillard offense. So that's the thing. Incredible. When people who are skeptical were just like, yo, they're really thin. I'm like, But guys, like, they're going to be, have Janice lineups, Middleton lineups, dame lineups. Like, this shit is going to work on offense.

It's going to work. And then, you know, because again, it's just one game. And we don't need to blow it out of proportion. But because it's so new, they had enough shooting out there for Janus. He was just missing open shooters, right? And this is something that Janus has become pretty damn good at, man. going downhill, getting that ball out quick before they try to draw that charge on them to a open shooter. And these are good shooters they're putting around, you honest.

So once he starts hitting those and defenses have to react to that too, it's going to be quite, quite, quite the site. Yeah, it's more of a defensive concern at this point. And honestly, like, we might as well just fast forward to the playoffs because I don't know if we'll get a lot of interesting data point throughout them. I don't know. throughout the right. I think about the role players for sure. Sure. If like a Bochamp all of a sudden looks great. You want to rob me of Bocham minutes?

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. How dare you? Maybe a little fanassus time. Well, why don't we go to my last one I have on here, which is the Owen three Memphis Grizzlies who at the time of this recording on Sunday morning, you're looking more like the Memphis glizzies. You write about that. For sure.

Yeah, that's Freudian slip, I guess. Now, the opening schedule has been difficult for the most part. It's the Pelicans. It was the Nuggets. And then a back-to-back on the road in Washington. Having said that, it was also the Wizards. And again, where, like, the Wizards basically blew them off the court. And it seemed like they were just trying to catch up to the power that is Corey Kisper.

I was about to say it wasn't just that they got blown off the court by the Wizards, but a Corey Kispert driven offense wrecked the Memphis Grizzlies. Also, we got our first Jordan Poole shoots a three looks at the opposing bench as if it's already going in. And then it clanks. That was, that is the perfect Jordan Poole play ever.

Yeah. You know, I tried to defend Jordan Poole ever so slightly on Bill's pod the other day because I watched the season opener and I thought he was actually pretty responsible and showed some restraint. And I was immediately punished. 29 minutes.

Yeah. Immediately punished for that decision. So I rescind every nice thing I've ever said about Jordan Poole. So with the Grizzlies, the issue is obviously the injuries. So they start now, Bain, Smart, Zaire Williams, Zavier Tillman, and Jaron Jackson, Jr. Out for them right now because Luke Conard and Santi Aldama are both out with minor injuries. They'll be back soon. It's basically Jock, Conard, Aldama, Brandon Clark, Stephen Adams.

And our friend Chris Harrington at the Daily Memphis. pretty much pointed out. This is like an inner squad scrimmage. Yeah. Basically, they're out an entire line of players. I think the thing that's been most distressing and concerning for me is that the Grizzlies do not look like a Grizzlies team. You would hope that even though all of these different names are out that were used to, that there would just be a grizzly DNA, like a wear bearer sort of situation, I guess, is what I'm constructing here, that like they would still be able to do certain things that the

grizzles are custom to doing first and foremost rebounding the basketball, which they were one of the best teams in the NBA last season. They're now quite bad this year. And just seems like they're relying on the three ball way too much to the point where, like, it seems like they were trying to mask and catch up to the wizards as opposed to the wizards having to conform to what a Grizzlies team has been doing. And that's like historically what we're used to seeing. And so on the one hand, it's early.

Disclaimer, et cetera, et cetera. On the other hand, like the cavalry isn't really coming for a little while here until Jock comes back in, what, December? Is Brandon Clark coming back this year? I don't think so. TBD, I think, yeah. I haven't seen any affirmation that he is. They don't have that athleticism from him,

which is just downright hard to be replicated at his position. The space-eating nature of Stephen Adams, like, yes, he's not, you know, a spring chicken anymore, right? Like he wasn't okay-C, those okay-C days where, man, this guy was switching out against Steph Curry in 20. That's the type of shit Stephen Adams used to do. But obviously, like, all of the stuff he does on screens and just as a rebounder and space creator on that end, like, you can't replicate that. And it's not coming back. And these are not things you can just replace, man.

You know, BinSmac Beambo is, like, that's not the kind of thing. There's the cavalry. That's the help that they're going to get. That's the cavalry. Yeah. And we were saying before he came out here, signing Bismack typically is a sign that something is going wrong with your seat. season. A guy who plays like he's got oven mitts on. It's crazy. That's why I'm kind of stuck.

Like, Byambo is a worthy roster player for an NBA team. I don't really have a problem with him being on the Grizzlies or them looking to him for front court depth. He deserves a job. Come on. He deserves a job. But the problem is their offense is awful. Like, it's very, it's very bad. And Bismac Beambo does nothing to fix that situation at all. I mean, nor should he be expected to as the guy is being brought in midseason. at this point. But I think what's hard for them is they don't have any way

to stack actions. Like some of the three-point reliance you're talking about, justice, there's no flow. Like they don't drive and kick to a cutter, who kicks to a shooter, who swings to an even more open shooter.

It's like one guy, Darren Jackson, Jr. will try to drive, not really get anywhere, get stuck, pass it to Desmond Bain, who tries the drive. He gets stopped.

And then it's like, you just have this idling offense and these possessions that don't go anywhere. And then someone jacks up a three because you have to shoot something. So I don't even think it's a matter of how they're taking their shots. It's that their shots aren't coming from anywhere.

They are six to last, I believe. Six to last in paint touches in the NBA right now, one spot above the Washington Wizards. So it's not great. One of the things that just categorically did not work in this Wizards game was playing David Roddy as a small ball four. you know, they're trying to create space. They're trying to do what they can

with the roster that they have. But these are the players, right? It's David Roddy. It's Jake Laughan, Jr. got into this game and pancake blocked. I think it was a Dalon right. I think on the Wizard, just like straight ran into him and decked him

because they were like, let's see what we can get from Kenny Lofton Jr. tonight. That's where we're at as an organization. It's tough times. It's tough times for a member. When you're in lineups are in dire need of Luke Conard, it's dark. It's dark out there. Yeah.

Wise, you want to go for your last one? Man, we talked about this in our preview pod. One of the reasons why Rob was not as bullish on this team as I was was, was injury. And look, man, I know they're saying all the right things in Phoenix right now where it's like, oh, it's just precaution and this and this and that. But, like, Bradley Bill has not played. a game to start the season. Devin Booker plays an outstanding game against Golden State.

And then it's like, yo, he can't play the next two, probably the next three. This is a problem. Look, they went crazy last night and were able to win. And good for them. Kudos to them on that. But man, this is really scary to me this early in the season that Devin Booker's toe was already giving him an issue. after one freaking game.

And Bradley Bill can't even get on the court yet after one preseason game. So yeah, this is, I don't want to say it's panic time, but like this idea that oh, we're just being precautious. I'm not buying it. I think these guys are legitimately already feeling it.

Was, welcome. Welcome. This is what we do over here. I just nervous. They have nights worrying about Bradley Beals back. That's where I'm at. How much can we rely on these guys to be healthy? And I suspect some of what we're seeing right now is Phoenix playing it safe with Beals back and Booker's foot sprain.

Like they would be foolish not to. But also they've built their entire operation around players you have to play it safe with. And eventually history tells us that usually catches up to you. Maybe you can catch lightning in the bottle. everyone will be healthy at the right time. You can make an incredible. The three of them are going to be incredible together. I just don't think it does anyone any good to pretend

that them getting hurt so often is not and will not be a factor. So I'm watching this Laker game, what was that, Friday? Or was it Thursday? Thursday, yeah. And I'm like, man, this team is like competent. KD is so great that he can make an offense downright competent literally by himself. Like, Booker and Bill on this.

You see the vision, right? When it's happening without them. But like at a certain point, you have to put this shit on tape. You have to put this on the floor. And also, another thing about it, as talented as these guys are, talented as they are. I'm not somebody who believes you can just manufacture continuity in the biggest spots of your season in the playoffs. At a certain point, you guys are going to have to do stuff together.

Build some trust and some chemistry. With the suns. Yeah. Like at a certain point, you're going to actually have to do this as a unit, right? You're going to have to string together six, seven games at a time where you guys are like actually playing together. And so that's something that I think is, it's like, all right, let's just say you bandage these guys up, you or you put them in bubbles.

like Bubble Boy up until the postseason. All right, congratulations. Everybody made it to the post season. Now y'all actually have to figure out how to beat the best teams in the league. Like, man, this is concerning for me earlier. Somebody who's pretty bullish on the talent level of what they put together over there in Phoenix. Yeah, and you alluded to it. They cleaned things up against the jazz, who we should know have many of their own issues.

But they absolutely waxed to the jazz and didn't even. I have to really try very hard to do it. And that's the advantage to having Kevin Durant just like in reserve. The issue would be, of course, like, you don't want to waste too many of those Kevin Durant, like just awesome games because you don't know how many he has it in his legs or how much you want to really put the stress on him this early in the season. I will say, though, I was getting particularly concerned before that game because like the no point guard thing was like, I think it could work when you have a deal in the booker,

but over the first two games, 43 turnovers in total. I think they have the highest turnover rate in the league so far, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, and I think they only turned it over like 11 times against the jazz, which is like respectable. It's not just atrocious like it was before. Grayson Allen Cruz, not exactly lighten it up at point guard, yeah. I personally love the Yuta Wananabe like showcase. I'm not sure how much it leads to winning basketball, but it's fun for now, as long as those guys can come back and take over those minutes. I mean, Yudah's been good in pretty limited minutes.

I think otherwise, in terms of the supporting guys, as we talked about last time, like Josh Okie looks like essential personnel right now based on like this version of the team. Like his effort and rebounding. Look at what he's doing on the boards. Look at what he's doing on defense. For real. He's made a few shots, which is just like, whoa, and he's shooting it confidently. Look, he seems like a good player at this point, you know?

Oh, yeah. I don't mean to talk down to him or the sons in saying that. I just think he's very important to them. He's been very good. Other than him, like Eric Gordon's shot hasn't been there, but I think his driving is really important. Especially to this kind of short-handed version of the Suns, him getting to the basket has been pretty important.

Yusuf Nurkich, I think, has been fine. Drew Eubanks has been okay to solid if like a little too foul prone. Other than that, like not a lot of bright spots in the supporting cast, which I think is kind of how we get to this point. And that point, ultimately, despite all our pessimism, is two and one. Like, they had a really good win over the Warriors when Booker was out there.

As we said, they just crushed the jazz. And they lost to a Lakers team that probably should have beaten them, given who was available in that game. And also, they only really lost when LeBron cranked it up. So it's not a disaster start. It's just discouraging to already see guys missing multiple games at this point. Well, speaking of reserves, who are excelling beyond our expectations, Rob,

can you please finish off your Jalen Triple Decker sandwich? Tick, Tacktoe, Jalen Duren, Jalen Brunson, Jalen Johnson, the Atlanta Hawks own Jalen Johnson, has played in a way where I can kind of understand why the Hawks would look at their roster and say, maybe we don't need John Collins so much because we have this other, you know, we have John Collins at home, so to speak.

Jalen Johnson just such an incredible bright spot for a thus far winless hawks team one of the best highlight artists of the early season probably some of the dunks of the year candidates on the books already

just looks incredible out in transition handling the ball giving them like a jolt a hawk's team that honestly needs that from time to time giving a bolt of lightning for a team that can otherwise be a little bit flat

and I think that's just invaluable like what he gives them in terms of dynamism and athleticism. And again, he's coming off the bench, but he fits so well. And some of Atlanta's best lineups to this point have been the Jalen Johnson, Akangu, Bogdan Bogdanovich lineup. Like those things have been working out pretty well. And a lot of it is because this guy is coming in and converting everything within five feet of the basket. He doesn't have the shot. And that's going to be an issue in terms of how he plugs into like their more starting oriented lineups and those kind of like game finishing lineups.

But what he gives you as an energy player, as a fairly versatile defender, even at this early stage in his career, as a finisher and as a guy who just has an intuitive sense of how to play, man, he's been incredibly impressive to the point that it's getting hard to take him off the floor. He's playing damn near 30 minutes a game because he's, like,

how do you not play a guy like that? Are there any other Jalen's you want to hit before we go here? I mean, there are so many Jailens. Jalen Suggs, Jailen Green, Jailen McDaniels? This is your definitive podcast for all things, Jalen. Like, we know our J-Wills from our J-dubs around here. We know our, we have a long history with our friend Jalen Green.

Actually, Jalen Smith, if we want to go deeper cut on the Jailen Smith, Jalen Smith has actually been pretty nice for the Pacers. Like the shot is looking really good. Rebounder, like impact defender around the rim sometimes. But, you know, it's a big year for Jailens. I'll say that. Pace is looking nice, by the way. I'm sure we'll get to them pretty soon, but pace is looking real nice.

named Jalen Pickett. Oh, he's on the Nuggets. Good for him. You're just Googling Jalens? Just naming some Jalens. NBA Jalens. Jalen watch. All right, let's wrap it there.

Thank you to Jack Sanders on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Wednesday. We'll see you that.