The Ringer NBA Show - Bill Simmons on the NBA Trade Saga With Bill's Dad and Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 179)

Episode Date: December 16, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by his dad and The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor to discuss some of the trades that shaped this NBA season, Russell Westbrook's off-ball play, the trade deadline, and way-too early NBA Finals talk. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We taped something on the NBA on the BS podcast tonight. We wanted to double run it here on the Ringer NBA show as well. You'll hear my dad because we're having a 70th birthday blue plate special podcast as well as the ringer's Kevin O'Connor. And we were talking about Oklahoma City and the Celtics and who can make the title. So we're double running it here just in case you didn't want to listen all the way to the end of my BS podcast. As always, the BS podcast brought to you by C-Kkeek. and right now, if you love NBA, you can use my offer code, BSNBA, 20% off first time.

You use C-Kkeek, go to the C-Geek app or download C-Keekeek.com. Here it is, me, my dad, Kevin O'Connor. All right now, the ringer's Kevin O'Connor. Wrote an awesome piece this week about Victor Oladipo, one of the hosts of the Ringer NBA podcast, Ringer MBA show. And still in Boston, unlike my dad who's here in L.A. but let's talk about the Ola Depot thing first because I think the fascinating thing about that trade and I thought it was a terrible trade.

I know my dad was upset about it because we didn't get Paul George, but Ola Depot had already been transforming his body, which you laid out in that piece. And even before the Pacers made that trade, he had turned himself into an athletic specimen and he was already a really good athlete. Do you think Indiana knew that?

that he had transformed his body that way and that was one of the reasons they made the trade? You know, I think that's kind of what got overlooked. And I do think they must have had at least some idea of what he was doing that summer because he went to the extreme. I mean, as a story detail, not just his body,

but the steps he took with improving his game, there must have been some hint that a leap was coming. Right. But at the same time, I feel like looking back at that, I mean, I was dead wrong. about that deal as it happened,

as like a ton of people were. And I think the situation always overlooked, too. Like, it goes beyond the body changes and the changes he made to his game. Like, he got into a great situation as well. I think people overlook more than anything else in sports situations when they think about assets and with trades. And I wrote about, you know,

I wrote a big Westbrook piece last spring. And in that piece was talking about how bad Westbrook was for Ola Depot and how it was such a dangerous part of his MVP case where O'Odeepo is basically just standing there and he's completely useless on most Westbrook plays. And then occasionally, Westbrook would be like, okay, now it's your turn to make a play and would throw him the ball. And now Ola Depot had to do something. And the one time he gets the ball.

And he was just used so poorly. And then Sabonis, who you and I both liked in college and my dad liked too, gets recast as this stretch four when he's a center. And, you know, I think Pritchard should get a lot of credit, and I certainly wasn't given him last summer, for at least looking at those two guys and being like, I think in a different offense, I think these guys might be assets. But the Oladipo part of him transforming his body, man, I mean, I guess we have to, I guess GMs really have to start looking at this stuff, April, May June, and being like, man, who's taking basketball seriously? The Paul George thing, though, is fascinating to me because if the Celtics get Paul George, which I thought they would, dad, we don't have Kyrie Irving. Right.

And Kevin, I think you and I argued about this in my podcast. And I was saying I ranked at Kyrie, Paul George, Jimmy Butler. And you had it ranked. What was your ranking, Paul George Kyrie, Jimmy Butler, or Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Kyrie? I know Kyrie was first or second. Oh, Kyrie was first or second. Yeah, yeah, that's what it was.

Yeah, one of the two, yeah, yeah. But dad, if I told you in July, we're better off with Kyrie Irvin than Paul George, would you have believed it? I think I would have believed it. Yeah? Yeah, I think I would have. Because we couldn't stop Kyrie.

Well, because we needed, well, the unknown there is the Isaiah Thomas piece. Yeah. I mean, we certainly didn't need Kyrie Irving if we were going to keep Isaiah Thomas. So we certainly didn't forecast a trade between Boston and Cleveland. Right. So it's kind of hard to go back and think about having Kyrie join us if Isaiah was still going to be there.

And yet we did that trade scenario as podcast for Kyrie. And Boston was always the most logical trade of everyone who was on the table. And the caveat was, but they'll never actually trade. These guys are competing for a title. Right. And then they actually made the trade. And, you know, I think you need so much luck with this stuff where you have like, you look at the Celtics, Danny Aange looks like a genius right now because the Kyrie trade

was amazing. The Tatum trade's amazing. The KG trade was great. The Rondo trade was great. He's made all these great trades. But then there are all these what ifs, right? Kevin, like they almost traded two first round picks for Robert Swift. Or Al Jefferson.

Almost. almost traded four for the pick used on Frank Kaminsky for just they wanted Justice Winslow that's that's another that's a classic sliding doors Justice Winslow who I'd like first of all would have been the wrong guy because Porzengis would have been there at number four and they would have taken

Justice Winsel over Porzengis and they were ready to do it they went all the way up the three if they went all the way up the three or four you mean I made the ninth pick when he was slipping to Charlotte and Charlotte took Frank Kempisky instead But there were two versions of that trade because initially they were trying to get to four and the Knicks were going to move back to nine and if they had gotten four

they were going to take Winslow and if they had taken Winsel over Porzengis, Danny wouldn't have a job right now. But then you look at what happened with the Paul George trade who do we think they would have given up in that Paul George trade? It probably would have been the Tatum pick

or would have been the Brooklyn pick the following year. do we know? I don't know if we know exactly but are we judging Paul George the Oklahoma City version or are we project because it's like with Oladipo

you have to project him into what he would be in Boston and I think he was doing a lot more things differently there than he currently is in Oklahoma City I mean it's like if Kyrie had went to Phoenix instead or something like that

Oh I'm not I'm not out on Paul George at all I'm just I'm thinking of the alternate universe in where they just end up with Paul George instead of Kyrie and if they end up with Paul George but keep Tatum and keep Jalen Brown and have these three, six, eight guys, but no, Kyrie, it's a different team and it's not as good, but it's also a really interesting team. And I actually think Paul George is now undervalued with the way,

Dad, how much of you watch Paul George is here? No, probably not a lot. I watch him a lot, and it gets me back to, I really enjoy the El LDP article, but I was also thinking what you had phrased earlier that on OKC, he was, you were. useless because he would rarely get the ball. And like you said, it was when Westbrook would give it up. And now he reminds me a little bit what's happened with Kyrie Irving. I mean, Oladipa was playing second fiddle to Westbrook. Yeah. Kyrie Irving was playing second fiddle to LeBron James. And now they're in different roles with different teams, different expectations. And in each case, they're the guy. Right. And then you see what happened with

George and Carmelo Anthony joining Westbrook, suddenly nothing's jiving. You go back to a year ago, nothing was jiving with the L'Odeepo, and it must be just impossible to play with

Westbrook. I mean, he controls the ball so much. There's been a lot of stuff on the internet. Kevin could speak to this because he loves this stuff. He loves this stuff. Of Westbrook, how useless he is when he doesn't have the ball. Do you ever see him changing?

Like, one of the things I've been the most impressed with Kyrie, which I thought was in there just from watching him in the finals and the playoffs and in person, all that stuff, but has gone to another level in the Celtics is how smart he is when he doesn't have the ball and the back cuts he does with Horford and the way he moves. And he's always involved in the play even if he doesn't have the ball. And Westbrook's the opposite. Is it too many bad habits? at this point, Kevin, or is it fixable?

I think it's a long list of bad habits. And the one thing I've read online is, you know, maybe, maybe Westbrook hasn't been kind of pushed to playoff ball. It's like, no, of course he's been asked to playoff ball. He's been asked by all his coaches. I'm sure it's been pushed by trainers as well. It's something that ultimately, from what I understand is, like, I think he needs to really commit to doing that.

You look at the numbers with, you look at the film with how other point guards screen off ball, how they move off ball to really make themselves open, to get themselves open. And Westbrook just kind of stands around between the three point line and the half court, really doing absolutely nothing. He's not necessarily a threat out there at all. And that's where it hurts the rest of the team. It's a domino effect. So like you mentioned earlier with Oladipo, where they just throw the ball to him and that's it. Well, the floor's not spaced in Oklahoma City because they were playing two bigs last year. Floor's not space because they have Roberson and Westbrook really aren't much of threat.

off ball. So it's like the situation can be so much better if it all starts with Westbrook really committing off ball. If he makes himself just as much of a threat off ball as he is with on ball, I think he really elevates his game to a whole new level more so than he already is because he is great, right? I mean, we knock him a lot, but he is a great player. And I think because of his greatness, it's not unfair to ask for more from him because it's there. So there's so much room to improve off ball. He's certainly one of the most interesting NBA stars of my lifetime in that his strengths are so strong and his weaknesses are so weak. And it's just this package of, you know, on the one hand, he plays with this ferocity. And he's just an unbelievable competitor. And then the other hand,

he just checks out during plays. And he's doing both things at the same time. He's chasing stats, which is my least favorite thing that any NBA player can do. I just don't think, I think if you care about your stats more than what the result of the game is, that's insane. But on the other hand, he's such a competitor. He's so relentless. He never stops. And it's just this constant balance of, I don't like this, but I like this. I wouldn't want to play with them.

But yet he gives you a better chance to win than almost anyone in the league. And you're just going back and forth all the time on him. I personally would not want to play with him. I would much rather play with 10 other point guards, but I can also see the case for wanting to play with them. Would you want to play with them, Dad? Well, if you watch Carmelo and Paul George's body language when they're out on the court,

I don't think they want to play with them. I think they're good friends, I guess. Yeah. And they like them off the court. But I don't think they're enjoying their experience in OKC. Is Carmelo salvageable KOC? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'm not giving up on Carmelo yet.

I'm not. I realize I might die on this hill alone. No, I'm still on there. You are? I'm on there, but I feel like I'm alone. No, I'm on there, but I'm out of supplies. I'm walking down the hill right now. My dad's walking down there.

I'm on the hill. I have no supplies left. Yeah. Team USA Carmelo, right? Olympics Mello still gives me hope where if this Oklahoma, Oklahoma City situation can get right. I mean, whether it's this season or these guys hang around for, you know, another season, if it gets right, I just see Carmelo in a situation where he's getting more open shots,

more easy shots than he ever did if that move, if that ball gets moving. But you don't know if it can. You don't expect Paul George to be there next year, do you? I don't. I don't think there's any way. So now you're left with Westbrook and Carmelo Anthony? Well, here. If Carmelo stays even.

Even, yeah. They have one chance, OKC, to salvage this over the next month. And it's going to come down to Westbrook, just playing better. I hate to just be, you know, boring about it, but he's not playing well. He's not playing well offensively. And it's either they have to go all in with last year's model and just be like, this is your team. Shoot 30 times a game. Everyone else will stand around.

Or he has to play better as a facilitator slash whatever. but right now they're in no man's land. And the real part, which I wrote about last week, and I suggested a Stephen Adams trade that made all the OKC fans bad. But they're like 24 million dollar luxury tax bill they're looking at. And that team has shown no history of spending that kind of money. So I can't imagine they're not going to trade Paul George. If in seven, eight weeks, they're still a 500 team with no chance to win the title,

they're not going to beat the Warriors, they're not going to beat the rockets. The rockets would blow them off the court. So why would you keep Paul George? He's not going to stay. So I think they have to trade them. And I think that's a way bigger story than people are giving it credit for right now. That guy's not going to be on the OKC in two months. What do you think, KFC?

I think, you know, before, you know, it comes to that point where, like, you know, you're thinking about seriously trading George. Someone needs to get through to Westbrook. And I don't know if it's possible. But I don't know if Billy Donovan hasn't been able to do it. If other coaches haven't been able to do it, but someone needs to get through to Westbrook that if you are better off ball, it helps you. It helps your team, right?

I think it helps everything on that roster. It helps Billy Donovan be able to really, I think, install the ball movement type of system he wants. There's little glimpses of it. We see certain sets they run of when they move the ball, but there's nothing consistent. Like if Westbrook commits to really evolving, everything changes. I mean, we're talking about Oklahoma City, maybe trading George right now in mid-Dcember, but a month from now or a month and a half from now, right before the eve of the trade deadline, things could look different than it.

It just, it does need to start with Westbrook, just like it needs to start with the star player on every team. LeBron set the tone for the Cavaliers once he started defending. Everybody else really started hustling, playing hard on that end of the floor. If Westbrook commits, I think everything else starts to fall in line behind him, because there is, talent on that team. Do you think Paul, do you think Paul George is good enough to be the facilitator for them on offense

for most of the time with Westbrook playing off the ball in a scenario where they could actually compete with Houston and Golden State in a playoff series? I think those teams are on another level, so no, but I think he can bring them a lot closer. I think they can close the gap significantly. Yeah. The reality is they're screwed because Houston, you call them. that credit to Kevin. He was saying he thought, oh, he thought if Chris Paul was healthy, Houston was going to be

unstoppable for a lot of different reasons, but mainly because at some point Hardin or Paul are on the court for 48 minutes. They always have a world-class point guard, and it's like nobody's going to be able to, you're not going to be able to keep up with that for 48 minutes. They're better than I thought. I'm not positive Chris Paul can stay healthy. Have you watched Houston, dad? I've watched them.

I think they could actually beat Golden State. I really do. I think they're in the conversation now. I'd be really hesitant, though. It's only December. And Chris Paul has at least two more injuries coming up between now and May. It's year 13 for him. But I think the ceiling of that team and what it would have to take to beat a team that's as loaded as Golden State, it's going to take, it's going to be math.

It's going to be a team that shoots 45-3s and makes between 18 to 20 of them four times in a seven-game. series, right, Kevin? I think it's like Mori said last year. It's exactly that. Or the variance of their shooting, you know, gives them a chance at those super teams, like the Warriors. So I think, you know, the fact you have two superstars now, yeah, that helps as well.

But their three-point shooting, the high variance of that is what I think really gives them a chance. And if you play it out, if you play out a seven-game series and they're at full strength, Hardin will have one game that he wins by himself, right? So you need three other games where everybody just makes shots. And I'll tell you, their crunch time, their crunch time lineup is a lineup that makes sense to me. Whereas I look at OKC's lineup and, you know, it's like Robertson's out there

and Adams, two guys who are complete non-threats. When the Seltz played them, dad, you wanted Robertson to shoot every time. Please shoot. We're leaving your white up, but please take one. And there was a point at the end of that game where Robinson took the three from the corner and he made it. Yeah. But it was, we were all shocked that he made it. Yeah. I mean, we still pulled the game out, but I'm, I just don't think, I don't see George

being there after the trade deadline. I think that, that team is going to readjust. I don't know where he'll go, though, because any team taking George at the trade deadline, probably in the back of their mind is thinking, this is a pure rental. This guy knows where he's going next year. KOC, what can they get for him? What's a realistic trade that would keep them competitive this year, but also makes sense for the team that acquires Paul George?

You know, I was just thinking about that. I talked about this recently with someone on Twitter where it's like, if you're Oklahoma City and there are no bidders because no, everybody's worried that he's not going to stay and he's just a rental, I don't know if it, I don't know if the benefit of trading him outweighs the risk of losing him. Like, you might be better off just waiting it out, right? So maybe there's nothing.

But if you're able to create a little bidding more, maybe a team like the Lakers gets worried and they offer something of value to get him before the deadline instead of risk, instead of risking him going to another team for a cheap price and then losing out on him in free agency, maybe there's a way for Sam Presti to create leverage by kind of going to other teams. Maybe George would be willing to resign in the right situation, right? Maybe there's a team in the east that he would be willing to resign with. But you need to create that leverage to, I think, get good value back. Otherwise, I think if you're Oklahoma City, you got to give it until April unless you get something of value. Because there's still a chance in those latter two months of the season, that's when things start to click. Right? I think everybody thought this team was going to take a while, but maybe it takes a little bit longer than expected.

So I think you need to get something of significant value back still. I wonder if they do a trade, I think it's. almost entirely financial. So he's making, he's, I can't remember exactly how much he's making, but I think it's over, I think it's like 22,

some 20, it's somewhere in that range. I believe it's, I want to say it's like 18, 19 right now. Maybe that's what, that's what he's, Adams makes 22. Right.

So he's making, he makes 22, Paul George is 19.5. Right. So if they're doing a trade, it has to be a luxury tax deal. And it has to be something where they're getting, they're sending them to a team that has a ton of cap space that can absorb

the trade and only send back like $7 million worth of guys. And there's really no teams out there that are like that. Like Philly would have been, I think, a candidate, right? But then they did that Covington extension, which kind of slaughtered their cap space. So now you're looking at teams like Dallas has cap space. I think there's one other team that, oh, Chicago has cap space. Like you're looking at teams like that. but why would Paul George ever resign with a team like that?

I think they're kind of stuck with this roster unless there's some sort of more imaginative deal that I'm missing. I mean, that's going to be the difficult part. I mean, they might just be stuck where they just have to ride this out and see what happens. Well, and that's why I thought maybe Adams is the move. If you just want to save $24 million, you dump Adams for...

If you're OKC and you think there's no chance, George is going to resign with you and you dump Adams just right now to save some money. A year from now, you have no George and you have no Adams. So I'm not sure they're going to make that move. By the way, another Celtics what if was Horford was very close to signing with OKC, right, until Durant decided he wasn't signing there. And then the Celtics get Horford. But there's a lot of Boston related what ifs.

Kevin, before we go, has there been one team that, in your opinion, has vaulted into this team could possibly make the finals conversation? How many teams do you have in the, this team could possibly make the finals conversation right now? Oh, there's three out west, Houston goal in St. Antonio, really no surprises there. And then in the east, I think it's a little bit more open than expected. Maybe I feel a little bit better about Toronto than I did before the season. the way they're moving the ball in the offensive end. Dwayne Casey deserves a lot of credit. And those players,

DeMar de Rosa and Kyle Lowry, more than anything else, those guys bought into the systematic changes. That's really where the team, that's a team that I liked going into the season, but I'm really, really into them now just because of their change style. Interesting. So you have six teams then?

Yeah, three in the east, three in the west. Nobody else. Washington, if John Wall fixes them before the end of the season could move up there, but I'm not sure Milwaukee's quite ready yet. I'm definitely crossing off Milwaukee. Kevin, are you worried that Morris may not be a factor for us the rest of the year? How about that weird statement he made about, you know, coming off the bench recently? It was very weird.

Yeah, very weird given that I think two days later, he didn't play because of his knee injury. Yeah, it went from, it seems like he's a good teammate, but then the bench thing was weird and very atypical for the Brad Stevens era. It made me wonder, I think, isn't this the last year of his contract? Or he's got, he's got, no, he's got three years left, but it's a good contract. That's like $6 million. And if they, if they, well, they're too late now. If they had absorbed somebody and said, hey, we're at 8.4, they could have packaged that together with somebody. but I think it is conceivable.

Morris could be in a deal. I don't think the Celtics are finished yet. Why can't they package that with the injury settlement? Because... There was a deadline for that. Yeah. December 8th was the last date because of rules in the CBA that would allow them to package the salary they would receive with another deal.

So they can still use the money. They just can't package it. They could still do one for once. So they could sign Kendrick Perkins for eight minutes. million dollars tomorrow and then flip him for somebody who makes 10 million dollars but you can't you can't package him i actually was disappointed with how they handled that but i do think the ulterior motive is so and we've never seen this before kevin you better sit down this is very exciting the southex 8.4 million dollars once we get into the buyout stage post trade deadline which is today isn't it no no this is

like, I'm saying after the trade deadline, when it's like, if you didn't get traded, you're stuck on your team. That's usually when guys get bought out. Okay. They could offer anyone $8.4 million. Right. So it could be, I'm trying to think of who's a veteran on a shit team who might get bought out. Like the scenario would have been like if Dwayne Wade was still on the Bulls.

And they kept until February. And then the Celtics could have stepped in in February and been like, here's $8.4 million. The other interesting thing they could do is they could. is they could convince a team who has somebody with two years left on their deal this year and next, they could do a little chicanery,

convince that team to buy out the guy and then promise to make up the guy's salary with the 8.4. So if it was somebody who made $8 million this year, $8 million next year, they could tell the team, just wave them, pay him for the rest of the year

and then do a buyout and then we'll make up the money and the guy will get $16 million right now instead of 8 and 8. But I looked at the list and there really isn't anybody out there. But I do think they're going to get super creative with that. Is there a favorite buyout guy potentially, Kevin? How about Greg Monroe on the Phoenix Suns?

At the time of that deal happened, there was reports that, you know, that you know, they could be to trade him or buy him out. My dad loves Greg Munro. Yeah. He's transformed into, he's the guy Jolail Okafour needs to become. Elevada's defense and elevators rebounding because the scoring is there for Okerfor. So Greg Monroe, I think he would be a smart candidate. Come off the bench and, you know, bruise bench units.

So I wonder what the legalities are of let's say they traded Phoenix like a good second round pick for just somebody who sucked, like their 16th man. And as part of that trade, it was wink wink, wave Greg Monroe for $0. Just buy them out for $0. and then we'll make it up with the 8.4. I wonder, how would the league stop that? I mean, they could kind of dot the lines, but they wouldn't really be able to prove something happened, right?

I can't see Phoenix doing something with us. Yeah, that's true. After the Isaiah thing. I think McDonough is still taking so much heat for the Isaiah trade. Yeah. That is true. But on the other hand, they have a cheap owner. And if they don't trade Monroe before the deadline,

that owner is going to be like, yeah, get that guy out of here. I can see Monroe being moved. I will tell you this, if we get Monroe, my dad will be doing a victory lap at Beacon Hill. It's a very long dog walk that day. I think we're missing a big guy. And the Morris injury is certainly exacerbating that right now. See, I would argue what Morris gives them and what we would miss if we didn't have that is that 6-8 type of guy who can guard LeBron. And if he's, if he's healthy.

But that's what I'm saying. If we don't think he's going to be healthy this year and we don't have that guy, right. Now we're looking at Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, guarding LeBron, which is a disaster. Jalen can handle it, but if he gets him in foul trouble, now we're asking a 19-year-old kid to guard LeBron in a playoff series. We need the third guy, and I don't know who that is. Like, I thought it might be Trevor Booker.

And then Philly swiped him. But is there anyone else you like Kevin out there who could be that 6-8 guy? honestly there's there's not a lot i think they have him on the roster it's marcus morris i think he's that guy um where we got to get his head right no matter how long it takes or shut him down for a month and make sure that knee gets gets healthy maybe he needs a minor procedure i mean they said that structurally the knee is fine that it was in the paper yesterday yeah so so you're telling him to suck it up basically i don't want you to mess with the morris brothers I did not say suck it up.

I said try to find out why the irritation is there if the knee is structurally sound. Before we go, young Kevin is moving to Los Angeles next month. I did not know that. Do you have any advice for young Kevin's dad? Oh. Because this was when I left the East Coast. You were devastated. Oh, I did not know you were making that move.

Congratulations. Thank you. I'm looking forward to it. It hasn't, I thought it was going to break on TMZ for three weeks, but they didn't cover it. So I'm announcing it here. My only suggestion was, hopefully you'll invite your dad out to the coast a little more frequently than I get invited. Oh, wow. Jesus.

I'll make an effort to do that. You know, I was like talking about how the dogs and. You can't get dog care. You're never available. It's always hard to get you out here. That's just so I can feel better about myself not being invited out of here. All right. Fair enough.

KFC, what's your finals pick right now? At Gunther Your Head, you had to pick two teams in the finals and what the final result would be. Who would you pick? I'm going to go with Golden State still in the West. Golden State in five against, I'm going to change from my precees. season pick, which was the Celtics and go to the Cavaliers. So Cavaliers, Warriors, again, Warriors and five. Gordon Hayward, April 15th, over, under.

He comes back. Do you go over, meaning it would be after April 15th or under April 15th for when we see Gordon Hayward in a Celtics uniform in a game? I'm going to go over as in like first round of the playoffs, something like that. serious minutes restriction if it's this season. Okay. May 15th over under. Under.

Under. So you think he's back by first round of the playoffs? Yeah. If Hayward is, is, were to return, I think middle of the first round of the playoffs, something like that,

perhaps starts practicing in April, but then returns to the court late April, early May, something like that. So dad, Greg Monroe and Gordon Hayward, happy birthday.

I like our chances, and a healthy Marcus Morris. I like our chances. This is it, man. We're back. If those three things occur, I disagree with Kevin O'Connell. I can see us. O'Connor. O'Connor, yeah.

Kevin O'Connell was the former third string, Pat's quarterback way back right. I'm seven years old. So you have us back in the finals? I do, yeah. Wow. If those three things happen, sure. This is exciting. You made my dad's day.

Kevin O'Connor, good job this week here in the Ringer NBA show early next week. Thanks for coming up. Thanks for listening. Don't forget about the BS podcast every Monday with Cousin Sal breaking down the week that was in the NFL as well as the week that's coming with guest alliance. And I should mention, against all odds with Cousin Sal, I went on there this week. we talked to Super Dave Osborne and it was one of the funniest podcasts I've ever been a part of.

So if you're not listening to it against all lots, listen to that one. Don't forget to check out the ringer.com and everyone on the ringer podcast network, all the great shows that we have. Enjoy the weekend.