The Ringer NBA Show - Blueprints for the Mavs’ Post-Nico Era. Plus, Should the Kings, Clippers, and Others Rebuild or Stay the Course? | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann react to Nico Harrison getting fired and discuss where the Mavs should go from here. Then they look at some other franchises and discuss whether they should blow up the roster and rebuild or stay the course they’re on. (00:00) Intro(2:45) FanDuel ad break(3:22) Mavs fire Nico Harrison(22:42) What’s Next for A.D.?(43:45) Kings(59:50) Clippers(1:08:56) Celtics The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me a couple of road dogs, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. We were going to try to book the kid in the Lakers jersey from the Dallas Mavericks game. But his PR guy was saying that he was just chalk full now. I think he's ribbon cutting at a car dealership today. He's got a whole schedule. Maybe one of the most important figures in the city of Dallas's entire history, to be honest with you. I think there's going to be a statue of him outside American Airlines someday.

Although everyone is convinced he was a plant. I mean, if you just go on Reddit, it's overwhelming. And I have expected, if he was a real person, I half expected him to just mysteriously die by way of blow dart from the trajectory of which came from a seat that had a rollaway stairs next to it. But yeah, people are convinced it wasn't real. What do you think about that? I'm glad you mentioned that because as I was thinking through this, I was like, this is incredibly convenient that everybody caught this kid in a bright yellow,

Lakers jersey talking to him and finally deciding at this point that he had to apologize for just like saying something mean like flipping him the bird in a previous game. And then everyone was very much aware of it. So I was like, how much was this a setup? And how much is he actually a kid? Is he actually like a 40 year old? He's just playing down because he's an actor. He's a crisis actor, you're saying.

I mean, honestly, the most unbelievable part is that literally anyone in public life would apologize for anything in 2020. So yeah, it's not passing the smell test. You're right. That part makes no sense. Like, did Dumont just reach out and say, did he summon him? How does that happen?

Someone named Dumont would have that power if I were to pick a last name out of a lineup. But if someone said, hey, you need to come to me and apologize, I'd be like, no. I mean, like, I don't know. Usually I'm compelled to just be a good human. But in that situation, you know, and make that choice. But I don't know. I haven't flipped a lot of people off in public. so I don't guess I'm the same, the bright source to ask.

But Dallas seems like the sun is finally shining. Rob, what's the pulse right now? Are you there right now? I'm not there right now, but trust me, I'm getting dispatches. There's feasting, there's dancing. You know, it's the celebration has only begun, I would say. Okay. We're going to obviously talk about that.

We're also going to talk about some other teams in probably similar situation as the post-Nico Dallas Mavericks deciding, whether or not it's time to rebuild or whether or not they should stay the course. But let's take a quick break when we come back. We'll talk Mavs right after the job. You're listening to The Ringer NBA show presented by Fandul. Fandul now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages,

it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because Fandle's coming your way December 1st. Download the Fandul Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming, gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Helph.com. Call 188-789-777 or visit cpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, it finally happened. The firing that literally no one was surprised by, we talked about the MAVs just on Sunday,

and it seemed like the sickle, the scythe was just like hanging over. Nico Harrison. He was taking different stairs in order to avoid the fan backlash. But the backlash found a way to not only affect him, but also the players, because at a certain point, it just felt like everyone was being dragged down by this, Rob. So I can't say anyone's surprise. Are you surprised that it happened now or this soon into the season? Because 11 games into a season of Fire General Manager, especially after backing him so publicly,

is pretty extreme. I think the only reason I'm surprised is because so many people double down in these sorts of instances, and especially people in positions of power tend to just like string these things out as long as humanly possible. And this is an admission that they blew it, right? In firing Nico Harrison and presumably in doing so, the implication is moving away from his vision for the team. That's a huge thing to say out loud in public, even if it's in like a wishy-washy public letter. It is a huge change, of course, for a team that I think we all knew was going to get their event. But yeah, I am modestly impressed that they would even go this far, although it's already several

months too late. I mean, it's unlike anything we've ever seen before. I can't really remember backing off of it. I guess, you know, we'll get into sort of the details of whether the choices that they're going to make on the horizon, how much or how little they will align with what they may have no choice but to sort of adhere to aspects of it. But yeah, man, I mean, there's just, it's really unprecedented in terms of how quickly they came off of it. Yeah, I think it almost underlines how the Dumonts and the whole new ownership regime just has no idea what they're doing, to the point where they backed NICO almost blindly when the Luca trade happened. And now they've reversed course so quickly, based purely off of public response. Like, you could say, like,

good job finally getting this decision right by moving on from Harrison. But ultimately, this was a PR move, I thought, like, plain and simple. Like, he didn't triumphantly all of a sudden just, like, come to this new way of looking at basketball, if anything. He just, like, he went along with what was happening. And then the public by basically protesting pretty loudly, not only outside of games, but at this point, it was pretty much inside of games every time. When Cooper Flagg was at the free throw line, when players were doing well, it just seemed

like the backlash was so much that it really forced them into its decision. where it's like you can't run a franchise, a for-profit business, when your entire fan base, your whole base where you're trying to draw your finances from is basically like, this is untenable. Like, we don't want to be a part of this. And so I don't want to give them too much credit to a certain extent because ultimately the dollar is really just like kind of dictated what they ended up doing. I mean, I think there's, it's twofold, right? There's the PR aspect, which as you're saying, Justin, is very real, was incredibly loud. I think we're just going to drown out. even a successful version of the Mavericks.

Even if they had been really good coming out to start this season, people weren't just going to forget about Luca. People weren't just going to forget about Nico Harrison. The conversation in the tenor might shift a little bit, but ultimately this is going to be something that people carried with them for a long, long time. The fact that they were, that they are three and eight

made it so, so much worse. And the fact that the attendance was so bad made it so much worse. And all that stuff is kind of intertwined in a really messy, thorny sort of way. But that's the position that Masse found themselves in. Like the PR was almost inextricable from the failures to put together a healthy and competitive roster on the floor. Yeah, and like the identity of the basketball community and it's inextricable between like I backtrack a little bit here.

I think the main thing here is, and Rob can attest to this with his Dallas basis, that there was a real resistance on their side to just not give him any credit. Even if they had come in and made the right basketball decision to do something that was unpopular, even if it had succeeded. I think there was still going to continue to be a resistance to not give any kind of credit to the betrayal that he basically bestowed upon them. And I was going to ask you about this, you guys about this. Do you don't think this is any more or less exacerbated by the internet era or the social media era? Because we see this in college football where fans, I mean, we had one, Texas A&M was going to hire Kentucky's football coach. and the fans, they sort of just mobilized online and fought it and basically, and Tennessee did it with with Shiano. I think it's come to be called a Shiano, but basically whenever the fans just mobilized,

like, do you all think that this would have happened in another era to this extent? Like, that social media, was it gasoline on it? Or what do you think? It might have been, but you're right. I've been thinking about this a lot too, because the pile on effect is similar to the way that people get, like doxed or piled on just an online discourse where it's tough to really think any differently about this situation. Nico definitely didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt because ultimately he was wrong about his blueprint for success. Like even if you wanted to be charitable and say that, oh, a Kyrie and Anthony Davis team could have been mildly successful, right? Probably nowhere close to where Luca could have brought them. If they were just healthy, things would have been different.

Maybe they were eight and three right now and they don't end up fire him. But the flaw in that, for instance, is the fact that, like, he traded for guys who and leaned on guys and Kyrie who were perpetually injured when part of the reason for trading Luke was because he wasn't available. And so it was tough to really get behind that. But you're right, Kyle, where it's like, I find myself trying to play devil's advocate or think about these things in a more nuanced fashion. But people don't even want to hear nuance about like this or that. There's such a raw, visceral, just violent rejection to everything about this that that's partly why they moved on because, like, you're right, if they were just middling at this point, Rob, do you think, like, this would change anything about how fans actually receive this?

It might have staved off the firing, but I don't think it would change the fan reception at all. And I think, Kyle, that kind of speaks to what you're talking about about the online fervor of all of this. And it's not just the in arena chance. It is the pervasiveness of this idea that Nico ruined the team, that Luca was the savior who was sent away without, like, someone who really wanted to be in Dallas and was shipped off to be a Laker. I think it impacts the fans, for one, they are constantly seeing that stuff. It also, if you're Nico Harrison, if you're Patrick Dumont, if you're anyone in the ownership suite, like your kids are seeing that. Your family is seeing that. It's like it is a constant chatter that you cannot escape.

And so because that is happening, even an okay results might have again, like bought a little bit of time, but it wasn't going to buy it for long enough for this thing to really turn around. Because Justin, you nailed it. Like the fundamental problem is even the good version of the Mavs is so dependent. on too many injury-prone players to ever make sense. Like, Kyrian AD haven't played a game together. And if you want to loop in Derek lively who gets hurt and Daniel Gafford who gets hurt and Clay Thompson, who's like 35 and staring into the void, how is this supposed to be a reliable basketball team?

Yeah. And so when I step aside and like think about this, I almost at times I've kind of chalked this up to hubris, the fact that Nico got so many things right to start with. Because it is kind of funny looking at his total rap sheet where he made a bunch of decisions that ultimately keyed their finals run. He did some good stuff before he did something very, very bad. We should say he attempted to do some maybe not good stuff. Like, here's a pile of first round picks for Kyle Kuzma that got turned down. Oh, man. So I almost wonder if it was a real like results versus process sort of situation where he got that right and he was just emboldened to think that

his way of thinking ultimately keyed like what was the successful run to the Western, or through the Western Conference Finals to the NBA Finals. But I almost feel like it's almost like the conviction version of blind ambition. Like we see this a lot in society now, but specifically in like what we do, where it's just like people are ambitious, but don't necessarily want to do what they're doing in order to reap the success. Like I almost feel like this was blind conviction where it's just like he thought that everything he thought was correct probably because he had had some success. But ultimately what

felt him were some of those nuances that we're talking about here, where it's like, yeah, he got the big stuff wrong where he went for AD and Blind Faith and him just being this untapped resource versus Luca. But on the flip side, he missed all the little things that made up the differences between Luca and AD. And like, there's that one anecdote, I believe, from Tim Kato where it's like there was a document where he put Yokic and Drew Holiday on the same. tier. And so it just felt like there's a lot of big things he got wrong, but a lot of the little things ultimately made it impossible for even his construction of the team to be halfway decent. So you're saying he's a poor takesman because he had this initial take, but he just like kept

digging down. It's supposed to be like strong takes loosely held, right? That's the philosophy, but he held on too tightly. He couldn't do anything else. it's well you're right that he had some success with the kairi one in particular that was it's amazing how much rehabilitation has gone on in kairi's basketball reputation because i remember yes i always think back to that uh that cyrott and i did an all-star draft where we just jumbled the players and drafted them and i drafted kairi and she laughed at me like mocked me and i mean i think that was 2022 maybe 2023 and and and that's, you know, I'm sure that that did, like you said, emboldened him to, uh, because I don't, you know,

the Gafford and the PJ moves in the basketball sense. I even thought the Grant Williams thing might work, honestly, based on the way that Luca affects other players. Um, but that's, that's true, but I just, I keep getting caught between this idea that, um, you know, we didn't get to see them play basketball. It's not like we were without questions because we were thinking about, you know, even when he brought in clay, the clay signing was, I was like, okay, well, if you're going to have Kyrene, you're going to have Clay and you're going to have Luca. You're kind of courting some defensive challenges from some implied defensive challenges from Square 1.

I don't know. We're going to get into, I guess, talking about where they should go. I don't want to bury the lead on some of the thoughts on on the team. But yeah, I just think if you're a mouse fan, one, just not only is this a godsend just because you've been dealing with this for months now. I'm sure you've been unhappy. Like, your spouses are probably happy that you're finally happy. It's like one of those sorts of things that just.

trickles down generational trauma has been dispatched everything's going to be great but like you see the way that it was starting to affect cooper the fact that like he was being punished almost or at the very least having to force to deal with things that he wasn't a part of and you really wanted to turn the page but fans i think weren't going to let the organization do that and right rightfully so but there was like that retweet that his cooper's mom had where it was basically like you shouldn't uh just be like when basing some of the players, it's not their fault. Real quick crash course and online kind of decorum there, where mom, unfortunately, out there retweeting blindly,

and everyone is very much aware of it and noticed it. But like, did not finish reading the tweet, unfortunately. It got a little bit easier at the bottom. It's like, you got to read all the way through the tweet. She was like, oh, yeah, I just want him to be happy. But the bottom was very much like, yeah, fuck Nico. We want to go on it. Or maybe she did read to the bottom.

She's trying to walk it back. It's possible. But the fact that, like, you have this new opportunity that you're gifted one of the precious few, like, potential stars that could change a franchise going forward. Like, you can't have him any part of that. And despite the fact that I said this is a part, PR move, I think from the basketball sense, Rob, like, this makes sense to give this guy a fresh. Yeah. Turn the page in every possible respect. Like, I think this is one of those things where there are a lot of really good players on this roster.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone who is now running the Mavericks front office from thinking, oh, we want to keep PJ Washington if possible. We obviously, you want to keep Derek lively if possible. But I just, I think this is the kind of situation where I would not blame anyone for going a little scorched earth with all of it, right? It's let's let's just try to clean out some of the pieces here. Let's try to get some value. Let's try to bottom out even more.

Let's lean into the fact that we are clearly at present a bad team, especially while Kyrie is hurt. Let's give him all the time in the world to get healthy and. come back, there's just not a lot here that's worth saving in the present tense. And so then everything becomes, like, how do you build the best basketball situation for Cooper Flag, which is to say the best basketball situation for the future of the Mavericks? How good does Cooper have to be to wipe this away? Because I think on some level, I think on some level this is never going to go away. I think this is one of those things that people are just going to be talking about. Like,

the guys that are like vaguely our age are going to be telling their grandkids and it's going to just be a wound. Like I don't, like, I don't know that Cooper can be good enough to wipe this away. On some level, I think it's just, it is what it is and it's going to be bad forever. Like, that's going to just be something that's going to be painful for the rest of certain mass. Like, you said generational trauma. It might just take the generation cycling out for this to go away, honestly. I don't even think it's just the guys our age who are going to be bringing this up and keeping it alive. I think, like, if you worked for the Mavericks or played for the Mavericks during this time, you will be asked about the Luca trade in basically every major interview you do for the rest of the rest of the moment. You're

of your life or every conversation that comes up with someone at a dinner party. Like everyone is going to want to know about that because this is a moment in basketball history. It's a moment in sports history. And right now, Dallas is trying to dig its way out of the aftermath of it. Right. How many franchises actually have legitimate title equity just in a given season, in a given window of competition?

Like how much will we think of the MAVs as like a top four team to win the title, even in Cooper's time there. Even for superstars that have defined our time, Carmela Anthony, for instance, they just didn't really get like a full shot at it. And when they got the shot at it, we thought it would continue and it just never got back there, partly because of Carmelo's personal decisions.

But like, these things are fleeting. And so you're right. Like maybe it just doesn't happen for them. I do wonder how much a fresh start will just like get the bad taste out of the mouth. And if you're just having fun, maybe it just like you push down some of the, discontent that has just been simmering for so long. I think the question, Rob, is like, how much is this ownership group and Dumont in particular going to be willing to turn the page completely and start fresh? Do you get the sense that like they're going to want to rebuild because

that's the way everyone assumes that they're going to go? Or do you think they see this as it's like, oh, we'll wait for Kyrie and AD to come back and we'll just be fine. We just kind of got rid of the problem. We're actually good. Well, first off, I mean, just asking for a friend, how do you stomach and push it down the discontent. How does how does one do that? You just force it down there and just eat your feelings. Just pure, I mean, look, it's worked for all of us throughout history. What could

possibly go wrong? Just guy stuff, you know? It's real guy stuff. But I do think that's part of it. Like, honestly, the eat your feelings part of this, there's a question of, does someone like Patrick Dumont treat this as just as you addressed up top JV, a PR problem? Right? Like, is this just a head needed to roll

and the people needed Nico Harrison on that block in order to feel some kind of of satisfaction. If he thinks that is the problem, I just, I think he's going to be in for a rude awakening. I think this is one of those things where it's not just ultimately Nico Harrison. It is what he thought this team should be. And like Anthony Davis doesn't deserve that, but he's representative of it in a way that so long as he's a part of this team, there's always going to be the ghost of Luca Donchich over his shoulder. There's always going to be that conversation. It's going to be chasing him in the team at every turn to the point that you could already hear

the trade chatter starting to pick up around a guy who hasn't played but is also one of the best players in the league when healthy and didn't deserve any of this, didn't ask for any of this, but has been dragged into it by Nico among others. Well, intensified by the fact that it's not a ghost, but him literally in your conference, potentially kicking your ass. I mean, it's right there in front of you. It's not something that you're just imagining. But then, you know, also there's the broader stuff about the ownership stuff that you continue. I don't know if it's been fully discharging. dismissed or expelled that the ownership group has an agenda of some kind. And I mean, I don't

think that that's going to help in terms of what they are wanting to do with the team. Has there been any kind of update on that lately if they squashed that, like for sure they're staying? I mean, there is also a weird side story involving the Dallas Mavericks and the Dallas stars being at odds over some arena situation. There's a lot happening and a lot in the air. I don't buy the trying to uproot the MAVs and move them to another city subplot conspiracy theory. I never thought it really had legs, to be honest with you. More importantly, is like, can they build a good basketball team again? And is there anyone equipped running this team to do it?

I think that's kind of an open question lingering over all of it. I know Mark Cuban wants the job. He wants the job back because he's been telling everyone for solid six months now that he should still have the job. and he definitely would have done the right thing. I will say at this point, I wonder if Dumont has the humility to go back to him and be like, yeah, let walk me through the process at the very least be a bridge to me figuring this out. I think it probably would go a long way with fans. It's hard to say because Cuban did kind of set the agenda for this.

He basically opened the door for them to make these decisions by selling the team kind of surprisingly and then not assuring himself control over the basketball decisions. So we'll see about that. Dennis Lindsay is a name that's floating. around in part because of his relationship to Cuban and the previous regime. Michael Finley, Matt Ricardier taking over in the interim. I'm a little worried, though, in terms of like turning the full page because there was like some reporting that like Clutch and AD are very close to Dumont and the ownership group. Apparently there's a good relationship there now. And the one thing that I

think is kind of the canary in the coal mine is like, AD should be a center. And if he's going to still be playing power forward for this team, I almost feel like that's an indication, regardless of what Demand or whoever might say, of where this thing is headed. Because we've seen just how crowded it is when he's out there and just how much better he is at center. But if this team wants to go back to that original blueprint, I think very quickly, like whatever goodwill that's kind of been fostered over the past 24 hours here might dissipate pretty quickly. I think there's just too many bigs for him to be a full-time center on this team at this point. again, provided that people are back and healthy.

And ultimately, as far as that relationship goes between Dumont and Clutch, if their relationship is good, I would think that would facilitate Anthony Davis going to another team that is better than the Mavericks. That's a good point. Yeah, like, I mean, like, I can't imagine if you are AD at this stage in his career,

we've talked so much about his injuries and his age and, like, how many great, like, truly great years he has left. Do you want one of those great years being, playing for a lottery team while Kyrie Irving rehabs and then hoping that next year the team can get its shit together? Like, I think he would want to go elsewhere. Yeah, they serve to benefit each other. I mean, if he comes back and even has like a modestly good looking like himself showing,

you could see a thing where him being miserable there, that doesn't serve anybody. And then like you were saying, Rob, I mean, they're going to want to do right by him, have a little bit of sympathy. If it's not contentious and both of them can kind of agree that we have mutual interest here, yeah, I could absolutely see that working out for moving. him. I just think the most interesting thing about this is the only little straw that you could say in like devil's advocate for Nico is that we just really, I was very curious to see the Kyrie A.D. Cooper thing where Cooper was more in line. We were talking about his usage, his role. Like I was very curious to see that. I don't think it would have been good enough to dispel all the, the negativity and the, in the just cancerous toxicity, whatever it is. That was the one thing that I was curious to see in the basketball.

sense. Yeah, and on the one hand, yeah, maybe AD sees the writing on the wall that this team's future is ultimately in the distant future and not in the immediate, even when Kyrie comes back. But on the other hand, like, he's an athlete, and these guys convince themselves that, like, they can make anything happen. They've made the impossible happen by making to the NBA to begin with. And Kyrie and AD have always wanted to play together dating back to when he wanted to get out of the Pelicans and Kyrie was on Boston. He couldn't get there because of the contract rules. He was the Rose rule at the time. You couldn't have two of those guys. I forgot what it was. And so maybe he's thinking like, oh, Carrie comes back, we're going to get this thing in order.

I think that's one problem. I think the second problem is how does AD get to a team that is functionally better than the Mavericks could be right now? Because I was trying to do the exercise of like trying to find the right teams. And it's near impossible. He's 32, signed through 27, 28 on a player option. The injuries are what they are. He hasn't really played, I think, 60 games since the bubble. run. And so if I'm like a team that has like an opportunity in front of me, Rob, if I'm like one of

these teams at the top, if I'm the Rockets, one of these actually good teams that have something good going, why would I throw that away for a guy who might not be available? I just like, I am a gog at the idea that you would throw Luca Donchich under the bus for like not rehabbing and not taking his body seriously. And like, you know, is he ever going to be in the kind of shape we want him to be? And it's like Anthony Davis can't play 65 games. I just can't believe still that the Mavericks got here, but you're right as a suitor, you now have to talk yourself into that same proposal, which is great player who may or may not be available when we need him to be.

And will he be at the ends of seasons? If we ask a lot of him, will that wear him down? If we want to play him at center, will that be even more taxing, not just, you know, more unfavorable to him personally, as you were saying, Justin? And then it's like, if you are one of those suitors, do you have enough salary to put together to match ADs, which is substantial, like a huge number that you now have to make work and you have to do it without it being more money than Dallas sends out because the Mavericks are over the apron and hard capped under the second. So there's just this very

narrow lane of teams that are competitive enough to want it, that are appealing enough to AD, you would think they would want to work with him to find some place that could be good for him too and also has all of this stuff working for them. It's a very small list very quickly. Kyle, let me throw this team at you. So we've talked a lot about Miami in this early going that their ball movement, the lack of screens that they're setting, the new offense has kind of brought life to that team again, despite the fact that they don't really have any true blue like top five superstars there. Bam's been very good this year. It's been hurt recently, but they've got something going right now.

I think you do wonder about the ceiling ultimately. Would you look, if you're Eric Spolstra in particular, the new Team USA head coach, look back on the previous Olympics and say, Bam and AD? that was pretty interesting. Can we bring that to an NBA context? Do you think that disrupts too much of what's going well there? Or do you think like the talent grab, if you can get them for like a low price, that's, that's what we do.

We shark guys and we bring in superstars. And that's ultimately what we're going to do. Are you interested in that idea at all? I just think the context there is just so important because if you're going to draw any kind of, if you're going to glean anything from the Olympics and the lineups that occur there, you're also dealing with there's three other players, and those three other players aren't just any three other players. They're the three, arguably, probably the best three players in the world at any given moment,

whether or not that's Steph and Katie. So you're spatially talking about something that's dynamic and not really comparable to anything else that's going on in the basketball world. Spare maybe, I don't know, it's not. And then I think the other thing, too, is that I don't, I just, when you consider that and then you consider what would it take for that to work in Miami, if you were going to disrupt what Miami has going, is that the entry point?

Is that the place where you would want to change it up? Because BAM and AD spatially in that sort of, I mean, it's sort of dribble drivey. It's sort of, does that work? Either one of them shoot the ball. Because Bam, as we talked about, his three point rate was up. He's been shooting them, you know,

in a small sample. I haven't checked the percentage lately. I'm just like, are either one of those guys going to get over the hump? But the other thing, too, is, yeah, 34. I mean, that seems pretty good, honestly. for ban but on volume for a big like we'll take that that I think that's work with AD I mean you take it what do you see you think it could work Rob I think it could

work I think the question is like what are you enticing the Mavs with in a deal like that and part of the problem is like because the heat had this outstanding pick in 2027 they couldn't trade one of their own picks until 2029 and it's like maybe that's appealing to Dallas maybe it's not maybe they need something it's a little more immediate besides just like you know salary filler and a distant pick that's it's so hard to like very precisely locate what Dallas would even want like like I would I would hope that they want to bottom out a little bit that they're looking more long term than they are a short term that they're really banking on building something with Cooper versus just trying to like reshuffle

some pieces and hope it still works. I just feared that that's exactly what they're going to be going for and that they're going to want more immediate players. They're going to want guys in uniform to help kind of like you know inspire some hope and I don't know that the heat have a lot to offer because Guys who are the best for the heat who are young are the best for the heat. I don't know that they're necessarily best for the, like Jaime Hawkes in a Mavericks uniform is not the same guy. You might be a little dissonant with Cooper. I was going to say the Terry Rozier thing has suddenly become an attractive expiring

because you're not going to be. Jesus Christ. What are you going to say? What's that? It's not your fault. It's just what a situation. Yeah. I think you guys are right.

I think like maybe you pick up an interesting young guy along the way. It seems like they're pretty foundational to what they're doing right now. But I think it's Rosier's expiring. You probably have your pick of like a Wiggins or a hero. I think Wiggins is the easiest one to fit in or perhaps move somewhere else. It would be pretty funny if they had a three-way trade going with the Lakers and Wiggins ended up in the Lakers. But I think you want faraway draft capital to replenish what you give in a way because we should mention like they have next year's pick. And so this year it makes a whole lot of sense to bottom out yet again.

But like from 27 until 2030, they don't control their own pick. So not until 2031 do you have control. So you really have to do the net style targeted tank here unless you go out and try to reclaim one of your own future picks. And that's why I also have the Hornets down here. Now, I don't know why the Hornets would want to be in the AD business this soon. Seems like they're thinking more 2028, if best. But again, if you're picking up a good player for very cheap, like you could do contracts plus the return of your 27 pick. give yourself a two-year window so you could tank properly.

Bridges, Sexton, Return up 27 actually works. We could haggle over how much draft capital is going where, if we're picking up smaller guys there. But that's the basis of it. Rob, is that intriguing to you at all from either side? Absolutely. I mean, the idea of the Hornets getting a real deal star-level center is something that we've talked around for multiple years now.

We just had an extended conversation about whether Ryan Cockburner can successfully move his feet into the high paint. Like, yeah, let's get Anthony Davis in there. I think that would be pretty exciting. And I think he fits with a lot of what they're trying to do and kind of the culture that Charles Lee is building. Like, he would make sense if he wants it. He is way ahead of their timeline.

As you said, what is going back to Dallas would have to be up for negotiation for sure. But like, I love that line of thought. I think AD to the Hornets, to the extent that anyone would actually entertain it, would delight me personally. I think the implication there, though, that really entertains me. And it's hilarious that we're here at this point. already with the Hornets, I mean, con canipple potential rookie of a year. That's something I want to talk to you all.

We should have talked about that last episode. Just the fact that we would think that they would pull the trigger on that, something off of their timeline would just imply a confidence that is just like, blow me back, like that the Hornets would think about doing something like that. In the basketball sense, by the way, I'm in Charlotte right now. So I'm going to get eyes on the two-headed monster of Musa Diabate and Ryan Caulkbriner, the defensive bastion. the galaxy. I'm curious to see you in person. But yeah, that's hilarious. I mean, it's NBA jam

level fun in a basis like paint by, paint by numbers. LaMello just throw it in the air. I mean, and just have AD go get it if he's even on the floor. But yeah, I mean, hypothetically, I like it. Horanitz, we should mention almost the exact same record as the failing Dallas Mavericks right now. So what are we? That's what I'm saying. It's just kind of funny where they would even think about going off timeline to do it. But AD is a special case. And one of those teams is above the first apron and thought they were going to be good. And the other one is the Charlotte Hornets.

So it's like, again, expectations matter, salary matters. Ultimately, a glaring hole at center matters. And if AD is willing to be the five for the Charlotte Hornets, and that's a huge if, frankly, I think he would be a great fit there. So I have some other ones down here. I have the Bulls, you know, 80 from Chicago. Maybe there's a going home thing. People just make sense.

Does that matter? I don't think he actually wants to go home. Although he was in the barbershop movie with Ice Cube where they went back to Chicago and he did a little cameo there. So if he wants to reprise that sort of like star wattage, if he wants to feel like the big man on the barbershop block, you can do that. But you're willing to break up the Bulls. I actually think if the Bulls added a more defensive center, like that's what they need going forward. Yeah. I think it's absolutely worth of the shot for them.

I think this might take them over the top. But like, I just don't know what the Mavs would want there because Kobe White would make some sense, but then you had the redundancy with Kyrie. We should probably talk about like how much Kyrie is getting moved in this as well. But like, I don't know, white expirings, maybe a pick, anything? I think it would have to be that. It would have to be banked on the idea of a specific pick that the Mavericks like. And then the idea of honestly resigning Kobe away. Like, I think he and Kyrie could play together.

We've seen White play with other ball handlers. we've seen Kyrie play with Luca. Yes, they are similarly sized in a way that would present some defensive problems, but it's a new day. Defense doesn't win championships anymore in Dallas. We're just trying to build a team that makes any kind of sense. So why don't we start with Kobe White? I have a couple other down here and then I have one bat-shit one.

Do you guys have any other teams that you like for 80 destinations? I'm kind of selling myself on the Toronto thing. I like the possibilities there. I like what he could do for their defense. Yacca Pertil has been and he's been very injured to be fair but it's just like shuffling around very barely. So the idea

of getting a big dynamic rim protecting center who can also clean up a lot of their rebounding issues is very exciting for me. Again it's like can you sell Dallas on a couple of picks for a team that now has Anthony Davis on it and like R.J. Barrett or Emmanuel

quickly along with I would assume Yaka Pertil's salary to make it all work. I don't know if that's going to be enough for the map. I mean, he's just kind of in it. Like, Yonka Perl's a perfectly good player, but not the reason the maps would be doing the deal. I feel like your courting just continued, and we've been just saying this over. And I just feel like you're courting more shooting issues. If you are going to believe in the Barnes experiment, if you're going to believe in, you're bringing in AD.

And then you're talking about Ingram, who's been reluctant to shoot threes. And then you're talking about Colin Morrier Boyles, who is extremely spatially challenged, as we know. I just don't even know if the juice would be worth the squeeze in that situation if I'm the Raptors. Can I tell you something that froze me in my tracks when I realized it about the Toronto Raptors this season? Yes, they don't take a ton of threes. They are currently eighth in the league in three-point percentage. So Choozy, a little resistant, a little hesitant, certainly,

in terms of their primary stakeholders, but at least they're hitting some shots, and a lot of it is guys like Barnes kind of refining it again. Effective. Congrats the Raptors. Yeah. Pertil's new extension, I believe, takes him through the 20, 31 season.

Yeah. So I don't know if that's like what the Mavs are necessarily looking. I don't hate that guy. They don't hate that guy. They fucking love that guy. It's the other part of this. How do you trade a foundational player? It's a great point.

Especially if you've already done it once. Well, if you love something and it comes back, I mean, you are supposed to hold on to it forever. So I guess, you know, lesson learned by the Toronto Raptors. Well, that's actually a good segue to my bat-shit idea. Okay. So I know things didn't go. well the first time with the Lakers.

But Anthony Davis for LeBron James, who says no? Us as content creators? I just don't want to deal with it. We would definitely not say no. God. You did say Clutch has a good, the tea leaves are there. It's true. It's true.

You said it. I think if you're worried that the Mavs want to make the most out of what they have, why not bring in LeBron, like re-energize the fan base? No? You guys aren't going for it? It's three. Point LeBron. I mean,

LeBron loved playing with Delo the first time, so that's going to go great. He loves flag. Who does it? You know, like, I'm sure,

I'm sure LeBron could find some love in his heart for this version of the Dallas Mavericks. I'm just not sure it'd be his pick of the litter. Then again, how many options does LeBron really have right now? Kyrie's there. Had some good moments there,

like, was becking him back on and off for what seemed more seven years. Rewin. Rewin. Nobody remember. Is that? Nope.

Kyle, what are you talking about? LeBron sent Kai read that video was like, hey, Kyrie. Rewine, rewind, rewind, rewind. Rewan. And everybody was like, I don't know what the song was, but everybody was like, oh, wow, okay, this is, I can't believe you all to remember it.

It was so grinchy. He does that a lot for a lot of people, so it's hard to remember. It's very true. In the cringe decks, we'll have to pull that one up with you. Well, that's actually a good segue to talk about Kyrie here. like if AD goes or even if AD doesn't go, is Kyrie a necessity?

Because on the one hand, like he fits whatever next version of the team might be. But he also fits a lot of different teams. And also the contract's more palatable. He's only making in the mid-30s. And so like that's very tradable. And so for instance, I'm Houston and I'm like,

oh, got an open that point card here. I don't know. Like we had to figure out the geography last podcast, but I don't know what the, like the intro. Texas front office situation is there. You're not allowed to send someone to the triangle,

but they make natural partners. Do the Houston Rockets need a point guard? We talked about it already. They have one of the best offenses in the league right now. So maybe Josh Akogi is the answer at point guard. You know, like anything is possible. You guys were dogging on a Kogi in L.A. I don't want to even hear any joking praise of Akogi.

No, do you think that? That wasn't joking. He's been good. I'm just saying you guys jumped down my throat when I praise Josha Kogi. Just perpetually agreed and bringing everything up that's everything said to me. No, I mean, I guess we're going to, we've talked about it. We'll have to do sort of a revisit of what's going on with the Rockets. And I don't know if we're being serious about them, maybe trading for Kyrie.

It's like how much of this is what the Rockets are doing is new and interesting. You get that initial kind of burst in a season where I would say like the book's not, you know, it's the book. Once the book's out on how to play them, when something's working, it's kind of changes the conversation. Have we hit that point with the Rockets? Do they seriously still need to trade for somebody to take a big swing like Kyrie? I don't know. I'm not

sold long term, but we'll see. Things are going well, so why rock the boat? The only other person I have down here is if Orlando just keeps sliding into misery, like, do you have to start talking about Franz? Is that too much? That hurts. That hurts for you to even

say. I just felt a piercing like a deep pain in my soul on the idea of trading Franz Fogner. I mean, at a certain point, you have to have a conversation about your core, right? Whether that's Paolo or Franz or upgrading at center or moving on from Jalen Suggs, even though he's kind of the heart and soul of the team in a lot of ways. They may have to make hard decisions, but for now, you know, maybe they're riding the ship. Maybe the Desmond Bain game winning three over, you know, Justin's Blazers.

Maybe that is ultimately what's going to jumpstart them back into form. That was tough. Was that the heave? That was the heave. It's tough to watch. I'm going to be honest with you. Yeah. Well, I think this is always interesting because when teams reset around one player is a real interesting, like, where we are in the NBA sort of petri dish.

And Kyle, I'm just curious, if you're in that front office with the Mavs, clearly no one's listening to you for two years probably at this point. But now you have this fresh opportunity with flag, like what players, what types of players, what skills, what skills. sets are you targeting in order to bring out the best? Well, it's the natural. I mean, he's not unlike any other. He's like every other potential superstar in the fact that, you know, shooting is where you start. How can we, how can we take pressure? How can we give him space? Pressure releases for the things that he's going to be. And he's an aspiring on ball creator and aspiring on ball pick and roll type of guy. If he's going to score, it's going to be, you know, in the slot, you know, attacking guys one-on-one, things like that. I also think he has a lot of

different uses. We've talked about this where there's a lot of different ways. His game is very wide. It's not especially spiking high in any one area, but he's very good at a lot of things. So you have a lot of options. I mean, my mind immediately just goes to there is a lot of onball talent as compared to last year's draft in this one. So I would first, that be where my mind is. Like, what other young superstar can we pair with him? A lot's been said about Darren Peterson, lately the guy for Kansas. I think DeBonza would work well with flag because flags deferring nature, I think, would feed into DeBanza. And then I think Camboos are too. Another guy, I don't think they have a lot of options. If they can get a pick in that one through six, seven, all of those guys would fit with like,

yeah, even beyond that, just because I think his game is so versatile and open to so many different outcomes. I mean, if they can get another great young creator in the one to six range, I do think fans will start to see the vision. You know, that's really all it took was two years of extreme lottery luck for it all to really come together. Fun is powerful. Fun is a powerful palette We've talked about that a lot with Philly. It's like they got over the Embed-Simonds like that drudgery really quickly when it was like, dang, BJ Hedgham looks fast on the break. I'm good.

I feel healed. That's the working operating idea of this show. So we hope so. Anything else on the Mavs? Any good tidings you'd want to send out into the ether? I mean, none that they're not already feeling, you know? This really is weirdly enough. day of celebration, a week of celebration. It's been so long in the offing in terms of all of

this really coming to a head. So I'm happy that we all collectively as a basketball community to say nothing about Dallas specifically can hopefully begin to move on from this. So I'm sure we're going to bring it up every podcast still, but you know. So it's more relief than it is like, you know, the Ewok's dancing at the end of Return of the Jedi, right? I mean, it's just kind of like, oh my God, we don't have to talk about this anymore. I don't know. Somebody is banging out drums on stormtrooper helmet somewhere, Kyle, you know? I think it can be both. All right. Well, why don't we take a quick break

before we get to some of these other teams? Maybe give this Luke a Jersey kid the key of the city. And we'll be right back. All right. So, in the midst of all this Mavs discontent and the turning of the page, maybe sort of, we'll see. There's also been in Sacramento, believe it or not, similar sort of rumblings

about things changing over there. I will say last night, first and foremost, last night in a very late game, these 8 p.m. starts are killing me. I can't imagine what the Eastern time people are giving about there. You're not allowed to complain about that. I was going to say, out of your jurisdiction. How dare you complain? I was falling asleep like halfway through that game last night.

But when I'm in L.A., we go to dinner after the games are over, and I'm looking around and I'm just like, what kind of cush lives do you guys live? I'm like looking at that 1030 start time, and I'm like, Anvil eyes. How dare you, J.B. I'm not even bringing it to double digits at this point. Bedtime is like pre 10 o'clock. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, honestly, you're a more evolved human being than I am. I don't know. I got to get on your level. I'm not waking up very early. Like, people usually balance this out by being like 5 a.m. runners. I'm just like waking up at like 7. It sounds like you have like figured out. I don't know if that's true.

But they did give a good average. effort last night against the Denver Nuggets, a team that's steamrolling most of the competition. Christy had the pregame rally cry. I think on the one hand, it's good to see. Seeing a little bit more spunk. Rob, I think the flip side of that is this is like the best effort. This is the best foot forward. It still ends up with them falling.

They're now three and eight on the season. Got a lot to really like look forward to right now in Sacramento. Yeah, I mean, I had the same impression you did, which was the signs of life were great. The pace that the Kings were playing with. Russ has obviously had a huge impact on that and just kind of like revving them up in a way that they really needed waking them up frankly. But they also got worked by the Jonas Valenchunis lead nuggets in the fourth quarter. Like seeing Denver pull away with not even anything remotely resembling its best lineups,

I thought was just a nice little reality check for a team that yes, fought harder, yes, played harder, yes, worked together to achieve kind of something. But ultimately they're just not going to be able to achieve very much. Like this is, we live in a world and we operate in a league where teams have to validate their own existence. And I don't see a lot in Sacramento's play to justify what it is, what they're trying to accomplish. Like, what is it that this team can even aspire to? Yeah, I mean, I was laughing about that you were talking about them playing hard in their first quarter. It's so demoralizing that, I mean, they were moving around because I was watching it with fresh eyes.

I was just thinking, I hadn't thought about the Kings in a short bit. I was watching their effort and just thinking they're really getting after it. But what was amusing me is that the Nuggets came out and ran a play for basically everyone but Yokic and we're scoring just at will. And I, yeah, it's a case of it's so, if you want to talk about depressing, they're not quite at Mavs level, but this team doesn't really protect the rim. I was kind of looking down if you're trying to choose just accelerating to the, to the rebuild or stay the course thing. I don't really think this one's a discussion. I think the more interesting thing is just who are the keepables? That's where I always go in this.

And I'm like, who do you guys think the keepables are for the Kings right now? Like what's nailed down? What do they want to move forward with? Because the old guys, none of them? Like who? None of them. Right. Including Zach Levine, whom they traded for just last season in order to perhaps.

What I thought was at the time, like kind of bringing back the spirit of the team that was successful a few seasons ago. like we lean all offense, we'll just supercharged, we'll just put up a bunch of shots, and defense be damned, right? But ultimately it seems like the stakeholders on that team are so defense first, Christie first and foremost, but also Perry and the new front office regime,

that they're trying to like map on a defensive identity onto a team that has no business being that sort of team. And so like, yeah, it's like the keepers aren't keepers, I think, just in a vacuum, but also seems like they're not the type of players that they even want to really move forward with. And so there's this really weird situation going on where I give Subonis credit.

Like he's playing through a ribbon injury to the point where he was grabbing at it multiple times last game. But they're also pairing him with Prestia to chew in the front court. And it's just like at times it's like I get Sabonis finding the like the optimal front court companion is extremely difficult. And as we go through trade partners, like it's a near impossible task at this point. But at the same time, like you kind of have to just embrace who you are if only to just make sense. of what's happening. Rob, just doesn't seem like

they're even care about that just because they're so, maybe they just have the license to be different and they're just like, we don't have to live by the past decisions, but I don't know,

at a certain point, you just have to be workable. But can you be an offense first team when your offense is also bad? Like, what is the thing that they're supposed to be leaning into? Yeah,

I mean, clearly you can attempt it for stretches at a time. Ultimately, like, they have many, many huge interlocking problems, one of which, as you said,

Justin is like, who do you pair with to Manusabonis? They've been circling that particular drain for years now, trying to figure it out and have been largely unsuccessful. Keegan Murray's injury and absence means there are just like no power forwards on this roster, which is why you sign precious to Chua in the first place, which is like why guys are just getting plugged into all these weird combinations that don't make any sense, that don't work together, that are neither offensive nor defensive. There just like isn't any connective tissue here that makes sense.

There's no means of putting together Zach Levine and DeMarerosa. to DeMana Subbonus at their salary numbers, with their skill sets, with their limitations, that's going to make this a functional basketball team. And so, yeah, like, I'm, I'm down for any option, Kyle, to kind of circle back to what you were talking about. I don't see anyone here that's like, I couldn't bear it apart with Neat Clifford, with all due respect. I like Neat Clifford, just fine.

But we're open for business. Like, it doesn't have to be a fire sale, but the doors need to be open. Everything has a price tag on it. Just come in and let us know what it is that you like. There are guys that are attractive. Yeah, I think Keegan, I mean, Keon, I think would be a bummer for Kings fans just because they have enjoyed, from what I've observed, seeing him grow and develop. I mean, that's been like a little sliver of a positive thing, his emergence. Yeah, I could see Keegan being attractive. I think the thing you were like speaking to about this just not interlocking into a megazord that can move is that, you know, if you're going to start from this idea of Subonis being this conduit of some. That's what he is best at. It's like amplifying the things that are plugged into him because he is so good at deferring. He is so good at setting screens. Grinity is his own kind of scoring issues that you have to kind of trade that off for. You start talking about the guys that are plugging into him. And it's like Levine likes to be on ball an awful lot. You're talking about he's not as he can hit those sort of flare screens. He can hit those handoffs. But the Rosen has never really been about that life. So I just think that the basketball vision I think was bad when it went into the bottle. I also just like philosophically for me personally

do you want to be in this business of trying to make De Bonas a bonus a bonus work for the foreseeable future of your franchise? Are we past the point where people should do that with the right mind? Because I just kind of, it's such a heavy implication the way he wants to play. It takes a lot of work around the edges of the roster to make it all makes sense. And like I have the same respect that you do just in terms of his ability to play through injury. He is available. he is a fighter, he works his ass off,

he has actually shown a meaningful amount of improvement in critical areas of his game, and yet he's always going to be a five who can't protect the rim. And he's always going to be a five who needs to be utilized in these particular ways. And so then you end up look like, you find games like last night where it's, I am actively thinking about an all-star

slash all-N-N-Ba-cali-player in Demona-Sabonis, would I rather have Drew Eubanks at his salary than DeMontas-a-Bonis at his salary? If we're talking like 45, million dollars for Subonis or three for Drew UBanks. The direction of the NBA makes it really hard to build a sustainable winning team around Amana Sabonis. Yeah, that's the irony of Sabonis, DeRosen, and Levine all kind of coalescing on this one

team together is these are all similar types of players where there's like the talent level suggests that there's something and yet trying to find a modern, workable solution with them as your centerpiece or even in concert is just such an impossible task, especially as we're getting to this era where teams are just trying to stockpile other parts of their lineups with just wings and whatnot. And so, and just like the bar for being the engine of an offense, I think, is higher than any time I can remember in recent history. And so I don't know, like the teams that I came up with for Subonis as a possible destination, just I don't feel good about them. It's like it's Bulls and Charlotte just because those teams seem to be in the market for

some sort of upgrade. But do I feel good about them? No. Do you guys have any other like ideas? I actually like the Charlotte fit as a way of like Subonis can be sort of your half court hub and then Lamello is obviously such a great open court engine. Like that is a marriage I think could kind of make sense even though they have different styles. I also think Memphis could have a place in that conversation. If you're thinking about who do you want to pair with Subonis, Jared Jackson Jr. and Subonis could be really interesting if you can make that work. Do you end up in an offensive place that was similar to Miles and Sabonis? If you go Triple J and Subonis, just hypothetically.

Incredibly possible. I think the only thing that separates it is Jaron Jackson wants to be that guy and Miles Turner did not want to be that guy. But in that case, are you trading Jha to get to Sabonis? Maybe you might have to. But I'm also pretty open to that idea at this point. That guy does not want to be there. So maybe it's time that we, you know, re-home him as well. Let's bring

Joss somewhere where he feels more welcome. Does Levine, is he any easier to trade now? Because on the one hand, it seems like any suggestion that like you look at the individual production and we could make that work, seems to have lost all validity

because now we're on another team where he's putting up numbers, the efficiencies is great, but the team is just so much worse when he's playing on the floor. Like the defensive numbers with him on the floor are ghastly. It's basically 1-26 defensive rate. It's minus 17 on net when he's on the court. And so I constantly convince myself like, oh, this would work.

Like for AD, for instance, there's like a natural symbiosis there where it's like, oh, if the kings want to get more serious about defense, AD makes sense there. And Levine is on a shorter contract and he's got some offensive juice. In the very least, he could run with Cooper for a little bit. But then I just, I look at the actual raw data and it's just like, there's no way. I want Levine to work somewhere. Like who he is as an offensive player. I really want it to work.

And we just haven't seen the machinery around him. He has not been surrounded by the best kinds of fits and players. Again, again, another guy who needs a lot of cover defensively, as you said, Justin, those numbers feel unfortunately entirely believable, given who Zach Levine has been, not just this season, but for his entire career. It's just really hard to talk yourself into like paying $47 million for that guy. And I think part of the problem that Sacramento will run into with the Zach Levine trade market should they decide to engage it is,

every team that would have wanted to trade for Zach Levine has had like three years to do it. So who is left? Who is it that's going to be like hitting them over the head with a gigantic offer? It's a lot of money for a guy with, again, very clear limitations, a significant injury history. It's a pretty tough sell even for an incredible shooter and a guy who moves and a guy who could like bring some flow to your offense in theory

if you're already a good team and looking to level up. It's just hard to talk yourself into all that. Yeah. I tell myself that there's always going to be one. team, right? And we've said this about De Rosen in particular a few times where it's just like, yeah, there's nowhere to send him to. And then one team ultimately ends up coming and stepping to the forefront. Brendan Ingram last year with Toronto is a prime example of this. But perhaps like Sacramento is just where the universe stops, you know, like if you're Sacramento and you're trying

to trade DeMarter Rosen, maybe there just isn't anybody to pawn him off. I don't know. Sacramento is the void from from Wolverine and Deadpool where all the, uh, the discreet. carded characters. Have you seen that movie? I don't know. Kyle, we don't reference Wolverine and Deadpool in this podcast. Absolutely. We've got letterbox accounts, my friend. Justin's been logging like an animal, you know?

But you're not a ratings guy. You don't even give a star on that thing. I dispatch stars. I don't do write-ups at all. This is purely for me where I just want to look at what I've accomplished and marvel at how much I, how many movies I've managed to pound into my brain over the course of a year. You are judgmental in every other area of your life but this one.

Taking a break on this one. I'm saving the juice for you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Talk about the Sacramento King. So I think we all agree like they should rebuild. I think it's going to be incredibly difficult in order to find a solution just now. They have their picks.

We should mention like the pick situation is actually not all that bad. They have a Minnesota one coming down the road via the Fox trade coming from San Antonio who owned that one. But like, so they're not in a dire straight. but I just don't know how to make sense of even trading the guys that they have, which is pretty bleak. Could I throw some Demar de Rosen possibilities at the two of you? Again, maybe Sacramento is the edge of the universe. Maybe there is nowhere left to go.

But I keep thinking about like there has to be some team that has a good enough offense, but like needs just like a little half court shot making, right? In the way, honestly, Houston might. Like, I think Houston is in that conversation. He's very different from what they want to do defensively. But they're looking at Kevin Durant and saying, okay, we need somebody to spell Katie in some of these moments. We want to tick up our potential playoff execution in the half court a little bit.

Are you going to say a part of that conversation? I was going to guess. Are you going to say Detroit? That's the team that I was thinking you might try to pull off. Is that it? Detroit is on my list. So I have Detroit, Milwaukee, and this one is a bit more of a reach stylistically because DeMarre does not fit their system.

But what about Cleveland? Could the calves have some use for someone like DeMarge de Rosen? Cab's our second apron team, though. That's true. It's tricky. But that's an interesting idea. Is there a Kyle Kuzma for Damar-based trade that could make some sense for everybody? And Damar's on a $25 million deal that is not unmovable.

I like the fit of it. Financially, it's always going to be difficult with Milwaukee. But I think this is the position Milwaukee should be in. They should be using their cap-strap situation as an advantage to take on good players that perhaps for their contract or their current situation just aren't a clean fit. And so I agree. I have a high opinion of some of the lower tier guys that the bucks that brought in at this point, like Ryan Rollins is a revelation. And almost don't want to like intrude upon that. But I think when it comes down to the serious like high stakes situations, you ever start to see

them, you need that steadiness. And at least someone off the bench who can just carry the offense for like 10 minutes while Yanis sits. Yeah. And Janus is the type that we've talked about. He's the type of built in, he's one of these culture trickles down. I in general think culture trickles down from your superstar in general, even if you do have a good organization. I think Janus is one of the guys that I think could absorb whatever weirdness. And I feel like he draws so much respect. Granted, Levine may come in there and just be like, I'm Zach Levine. I'm doing Zach Levine things. And just think, I know you're Janus. I've seen your work. Cool. Yada. Yada. let me shoot the ball. But I do think that that's, that is an interesting one for, for what he could do for

Zach Levine's basketball identity. All right. Let's move along because we got two teams left on the board here. Let's start with the Clippers who recently lost their fifth straight game. They're now in the three and seven. They've had some slow starts in the past. A lot of that because Kauai hasn't been available and lo and behold, he hasn't been available very much this season. They're three and two with him. Oh, and five without him. I think the biggest, issue, Rob, is that like the defense, which was so critical to their success, hasn't been there at all. Their 26 as we're recording this. And on top of that, the old's look mighty creaky at this point. Yeah, I think there's a lot of reason for the

Clippers to take a hard look in the mirror and consider whether putting together the oldest roster in basketball history was maybe not the best idea in the world. And at the same time, it's like, what do you do? You know, like I honestly don't think this is like a blow it up candidate. I'm going to take my hand off the plunger. I think we're just going to leave them beat because nature will ultimately take its course with this team. But like, what are you supposed to do? Like, are you supposed to try to trade Gawai Leonard, a player that no one like knows what to do with and the offers I cannot imagine would be that robust?

Are you going to try to trade James Hardin? Are you going to try to trade? I mean, there are lots of role players on this team and supporting pieces that would fetch a market. But what does it do for you as the clippers when you don't own your own pick? you don't have the ability to bottom out. What is it that you're supposed to be doing, if not hoping that it gets better than three and seven? You want to talk about creaky?

I was just thinking, this team is allowing them. I thought this stat was interesting. They're allowing the most made field goals in the 25 to 29 foot range in the league. I was watching some of those. And the closeout speed kind of reminded me of that section like before Thriller, the song starts, where you just hear that.

Eh, eh. teams are just really enjoying running on these guys. So I don't know. Like what seed are they even going to end up at? Like where is this all even going? Brad Beal is out. Kawhi is out. It just seems like it's going to be like you were saying, Rob,

just kind of a painful nature runs its course kind of a thing because I don't really even know what options you have. Yeah. Well, as fellow olds, we know that like success when you're at this age, is context dependent more than anything? Of course. You can't just bring it every single night.

There has to be the right Byron's, you know, the right amount of sleep in order to make sure you're just really nailing certain situations. And so on the one hand, are they old and washed and just can't do anything? Or is it compounded by the fact that you just need the right setup in order to do what you do well because what you do is so narrow at this point? And so like there's part of the time where it's just like, hey, you know, Brooke Lopez would be good just sitting out there and firing away if he had a good dynamic powerful role man

which was supposed to be John Collins he isn't playing well and it's just like oh CP is really good as a table setter needs some more juice around him in order to fit that out like Bradley Beale just hasn't been available again on Monday wasn't once they're out there and Bradley Beale just needs everything because Bradley Beale doesn't play and so

just having him actually log minutes is pretty much the big hurdle there and so on top of this I worry overall if they're a little too old, but more than anything, I worry that the combinations you need for the olds to be successful, like might not line up as neatly as you need them to, because it's damn near 75% of the roster at this point. Well, and one of those factors for the olds to be successful is some kind of consistency. And because nothing has worked, Tailu is like plugging and playing every combination of this roster possible, trying to figure something out that could be sustainable,

which if you are one of these veterans, it's just like a really tough way to play. And not just veterans, but guys who are in new roles that they've never quite played before, guys who are on a new team clearly and acclimating to just like, what is it like playing with James Harden, point blank, period. So there's so much adjustment happening at the same time for all of these guys who are at a point in their career where they're not the most, like, adjustable players in the world. Yeah. So I ultimately, I think we would agree that blowing up is too difficult. I will say the one advantage to the old's approach is these guys came at high dollar amounts, but on short-term deals. And so the Clippers are one of these teams hoarding precious cap space down the road

in the hopes that that becomes an advantage yet again. I do wonder if they take the opposite approach, which would have to be buying more into the Kauai Leonard James Hardin era, which big question, you could spool them together in order to get into the mix of some of these underperforming guys we've talked about, like Zach Levine. And so if you think like there's like a veteran that would solve the issue just by making your starting lineup a little bit better, there's that option to you? Like I think back to like had they gotten to the Drew Holiday mix

who's looked reborn in Portland you know? Yeah. Well that's that's a swear jar for sure. Is it? Yeah, I think so. I can't just name a player. Not a randomly brought them up.

Yeah, that's got a, sorry. You can't name a blazer. That's for sure. You got off the interstate where there was no exit there. You just drove through the trees. Someone did calculate how much I owe at this point and I think it's around $2.

Okay. So we're mounting, you know? Are you going to be? the charity of your choice. No, that's emboldened me to let it fly then, because these are just only $2. Free money. You gotta up the penalties.

Yeah, for sure. There's gonna be a repeater tax once you get past a certain point. I guess the question then is like, do you guys buy the idea of like, well, we're already in this situation. We might as well double down, get like a one veteran as opposed to three of these middling guys who are underperforming. I almost don't want to do too much. I'm just like, again, let, let, I think, I think,

it is more likely that these guys will figure something out. Again, not something great. I don't think this is going to be a contending team. I think they're going to be in that sort of play in. Maybe at most they get into the back end of the playoff lock mix, but more likely a play in team. It feels more likely that they get to that level and feel better than this than it is that they get some overwhelming return on any of these guys. Or as you're saying, Justin, like one guy who consolidates some veterans and fix actually fixes something fundamental. Because I think the fundamental thing, this is a a very old team that doesn't get back on defense and doesn't feel very dynamic in any aspect of the game. That was already true offensively and the fact that it is transported to the defense

is something that you would have to make wholesale changes to really address. And if they can get to that stage, let's, if they can get to that stage where, you know, they get focused preparation where the game is slowing down a little bit where it's a little bit more of a half court game, you could talk yourself into into what Rob is saying even more and just be like, okay, this is a very, they're old. Granted, they have the benefit of time and wisdom, which is causing this to happen, but it is a smart group of players. I mean, this is a pretty exceptionally smart group of players, honestly, it's just father time running them down. Yeah, and I was looking at the, in terms of, obviously, it's incredibly top heavy. It's just like roll, it's just rolling down a hill. It can't stay up. It's so top heavy. It's basically, I'm trying to think, I was looking down. I was like, I'm reaching here. I mean, Cam Christie has barely had a chance. I don't even know how we feel about him. We saw some. We saw some. random Kobe Brown minutes the other night. There's really nobody on the youth horizon that's like, that is going to inspire me to pivot in their direction.

No, Conan. No Conan minutes. He sneaks in there sometimes. He's a wild man. Yeah. Javale. The good thing in the West, as we're recording this,

it is starting to look like the top six are going to be similarly as the clipper is top heavy. The middle, like the playing mix is starting to soften a little. a little bit. As we're recording this, Phoenix, who's just like getting by on piss and vinegar at this point. Golden State, who's dealing with some shit, a team that should not be named.

And Utah are currently 6 through 10. You're telling me that Clippers can't catch Utah. Like, they can get into the 9-10 if they are even remotely functional, and then anything above that feels also well within their power. Like, this team is just too smart, like Kyle said, to not

to be this bad. Like, they have to be able to put something together. Utah is their, is their Achilles heel though, man. It's true. Literally, they run. One of the most violent things I watched all season was watching them just straight up lap the clippers. That was

brutal. Do you got to run? What are you doing? Stop. I just imagine that's what the huddle was. They needed a new t-shirt because the off-season one apparently was not very effective. Nope. Yeah. That's going to, that really is the collector's item we need.

I was thinking like the Anthony Davis Mavericks jersey is going to put up Coachella numbers someday, but if you got that Clippers Jeff Van Gundy print, I'm very interested. My white whale for that is the Rashid Wallace Hawks jersey. Yeah. The one game Hawks jersey. That's like ultimate Coachella stuff.

It's a very good. Rebok, too, if I'm not mistaken. So even more. Is it the shimmering one as well? It's like the wide shoulder thing. Yeah. What a time for fashion. That's good.

We used to make things in this country. Well, flipping over to the east now, the Boston Celtics, another team kind of caught in between. I have to say, like, we could talk about whether or not they should rebuild or, like, kind of stay the course here and just wait for Jason Tatum, who might be back next week, just based on, like, kind of the optimism springing from him on the bench over there. But not just from that, but springing from his legs in the footage of him in practice, like dunking. Like, I don't know what is happening. I'm just having a good time, watching the Celtics. free of stakes like I feel like everything

with the Celtics just because they're so overcover there's a lot of media in Boston they've just been in such a prominent team for so goddamn long like we're talking about when Brad Stevens was still the coach like this is a long time of like having everyone gripping the steering wheel a little too tightly the fact where it's like we're in some competitive

games we're off and running we don't have to worry about whether like this leads to this trade or like if we're not winning 60 games it's just like we're talking about Jalen Brown's hair like all the time Like this is just like so like breezy. I almost want them to stay the course if only so we can enjoy this little like reprieve we have. The Pax Ramana of the Boston Celtics.

Yeah, I don't really see what the problem is here. This feels like everything kind of going according to plan as far as what the season was going to look like. Like what is it that they should be doing? Yeah, this is an absolute stay the course. And you've actually had a little, a few little fun. I mean, mine not or minot. Is it minot or mine not? I mean, it seems like it's minot.

Yeah. Is it? Okay. Wait, is it, is it minot? That would blow my mind. If it's Josh Minet, if you didn't know what it was, that would blow my mind.

I guess if you, yeah, if anyone out there understands his last name to be pronounced, minet, get at us. Like, I need to, we need to know.

I think Hollinger said minot, and he's a big, minor guy, so that's why I wondered if he knew, you know, you tend to know the guys you like. So if Hollinger's a big minded guy and I'm a big minot guy,

I don't know what to tell you. Isaiah chimes in our hands. It's my knot. There we go. Well, settled. All right. It's definitive. Yep.

And then Hugo. Bang the gavel on the table. People like Hugo, I don't know if they totally know absolutely what to make of him. If it's just chaos or if it's or if it's actually something, but we'll see. But, I mean, they're on a, they're on a track to do a very typical Boston thing here, which is to just end up with a time. I mean, they have a history of doing this of having a down year at the, at an odd time. and then coming up with a big time talent. Granted, it's been gone poorly in a couple situations,

but not to take it in a dark place. Didn't see that coming. You're right. I tend to do that. Sorry. Don't do drugs, kids. No, yeah, it's the same thing. I mean, stay the course.

Tatum's coming back. I don't really, you know, they're pastures in a similar situation with Halliburton where they're in a unique position. position to add a big time talent if they just stay the course, write it out. Why not? I think the difference with the Pacer situation is it feels like the whole project for Boston is like figuring out which of these young guys can actually play. And some of that is, you know, giving minutes to Josh Minot, which is huge for us, My Nuts. You know, we're just figuring out

whether this is going to be a real thing or not. Did you say My Nuts? Yeah, well, that's what the Josh Minot stands are called, aren't they? Is it that a thing? Let's wrap this up, guys. Well, here's my point. Even when Josh Mynot isn't playing well, which was not the case yesterday,

for example, gets Yang from the rotation, Jordan Walsh comes in. I thought he played really well. So it's like, you know, is Hugo Gonzalez going to be more than just the chaos

that Kyle was describing? Is Namesh Kada going to be a long-term guy who can play through his mistakes now so we can be a factor later? That's what all this is is like, can you build a supporting cast through opportunity?

And I think the Celtics, none of these guys, feel like, oh, this is the fifth best player on a contending team, but it's like, can they be the eighth best player on a contending team? Can Luca Garza break his record for practice shots put up? Because I don't know if you guys saw that story.

No. Noah Dalzell had this report that apparently they track how many shots go up in practice now via the NOAA situation or all these newfangled technologies. Apparently, he had more practice shots go up in the NBA than anyone

in the NBA last year. And it was 12 thousand more than the next most 12,000 more my guy wants it. Unfortunately can he shoot not really slow this is the thing like it's it's been slow it's

it's a little tough I like I like I like Luka Garza fine I think in terms of like the core and perhaps like picking off from there I think there's always the opportunity if a team really wants Derek White there's that I'm curious what you guys think about white now that he's had the opportunity to basically scale up

And while he has in usage in terms of production, really hasn't been that guy. It's super early at this point. I'm talking 12 games of a sample. So maybe that happens over time. I'm also wondering, Rob, but I just don't know if whites that guy. I think I like him more as like your way over qualified fourth best player

than someone that's relied on as part of a big three. And perhaps that's what we're going to see for him because the efficiency has been bad. The production has been modest, despite the fact that they are giving him more opportunities to do more. For sure. But ultimately, this is a Kyle question. As one of the pioneers

of the Derek White is better than Trey Young take, really on the forefront and the breaking edge of something, I would like to get Kyle's take on the state of Derek White. You know this if you play basketball, it's just the your efficiencies are very tied to the types of things that you see if you're not a star.

So, I mean, it's just Derek White, as much as we love him, is such a good connective piece that when you put him with other stars, that he is really good at those types of looks and the types of passes that you're making off of a live dribble are different than if you're looking at a set defense.

So it's just, you know, we're not at the stage where I'm going to put his feet to the fire and say you either evolve in this direction or you're a failure. I don't think we've seen that he's a great success and the things that he does well. Somebody proposed to me thinking on the Derek White is better than Trey, just a quick, side road here. Is there a world where by that logic we could see a Jabari ends up being a more winning, valuable player than Palo outcome. I think Jabari

would have to show a lot of really additive connectivity and more than just like a good defender who spots up and can be impactful in spaces, but like can he be someone who amplifies? How about can Jabari Smith put an entire month together before we start comparing into like

a current day all-star? Sure. Hey, wild-huffet. I love Jabari Smith. They are very far apart right now. We should say Jabari Smith and Palo Van Karo. But ultimately I totally agree with what you're saying about Derek White, which is ultimately like if you put Derek White with two other stars, he becomes a third star. If you put him alongside some other guys,

he is the player we saw in San Antonio fundamentally, which is like perfectly fine, perfectly useful. No one is mad. Derek White is here, but he's not booing your entire team. He's not carrying the weight of a franchise. It's just not what he does.

Who's the actor comp for Derek White? He can't carry a movie, but you're very happy. when he's in the movie. I was trying, it's like a, like a Clifton Collin. I'm trying to,

that's probably too. It's got like a great character actor type. Is it in that range? Clifton Collins, Scoot McNary. It's a guy, but he has more lines than that. I mean,

I could, has Michael Imperiali been like a great lead in something? I feel like maybe he had a crack. Well, he was, uh, he was like kind of a co-lead in the Sopranos, which is,

I guess, Derek White on those middling spurs teams. Sure. Stephen Ruth. This is a great prompt, though. I honestly would love to hear from the group chat listeners on this. Like, who is the Derek White actor comp? I think it's something we can send out into the world.

Because if you just sprinkle a little Stephen Rood on any movie, I'm like, that's a better movie. It just is. And if you put Derek White on every, you know, I don't know. But he's a chameleon. Does it work? Yeah, hit us up. Let us know. Yeah, what's the email address, Rob?

The email is ringer group chat at gml.com. We do occasionally just get some stragglers coming in just for your old time's sake. But we need, let's dust it off. dust off ringer group chat at gmail.com. Let us know who the Derek White actor comp is. Okay. Well, I would say we'll keep track of that, but it's literally just you keeping track of that. So I will keep you to abreast of every email that we get, I assure you.

Okay. Keep mine. Let's wrap it there. Let's wrap it there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia and Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Sunday night. Let's talk to you that.

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