The Ringer NBA Show - Blueprints to Save the Wolves and Warriors. Plus, the Cavs Make a Big Statement. | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss the Cavs' impressive win over the Thunder and whether they think any differently about those two teams (10:20). Then, they talk through how to fix three middling teams, attempting to save the Timberwolves (45:13), Warriors (58:27), and Bulls (1:06:53). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts. 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, Jalo, Kanye, sure. And now the show is called 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s. Wow.

That's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s, in the 2000s, preferably on Spotify. Group chat, I am Justin Barrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Obviously, a weird time to be recording a podcast about the NBA. The ringer is largely based in Los Angeles. I lived there until six months ago.

Waz, you're there now. How are you doing? How's the past like 24 hours, 48 hours, Ben? I mean, I'm, you know, fine. Where I'm at here in the Valley has been basically. unaffected, thankfully, especially like, yeah, just my specific area. But, you know, obviously everybody who lives here knows people who have been affected, whether it be colleagues of ours who have lost homes and other stuff and, like, friends

of mine, like I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, him and his wife and his two kids, they evacuated where they lived to the freaking Hollywood Hills, which then caught on fire. and they then had to evacuate that place. Him, his wife, and his two kids, right? And that's the story for a lot of people in the city right now. Shouts to all of the first responders, man. Like, I was telling somebody, like, not even joking. I was like, if it was up to me to fly a freaking helicopter

and 30-mile-an-hour winds to put these fires out, it wouldn't be happening. Like, these guys and girls are so freaking brave. We owe them such a debt of gratitude for the hard work they're putting in, man. It's just, it just sucks. It's devastating when you really try to contextualize what is being lost here. Yeah. It's just an immeasurable loss. Like there is the property, like whatever.

We could build a house back up from scratch. But like people's memories and lives and connections are just poof literally up in smoke. and it's just an incalculable loss. And that's what I think is like really I'm coming to grips with today. Like the past two days has just been like, you know, trying to figure out like where's the safest place to be. You know, my own building management hasn't sent one email correspondence. Jesus Christ.

Like, yeah, figure it out, you know. So like the past two days was that. But this morning, it just, I don't know, man. Like the sense of loss just really hit me like a ton of bricks this morning of like what people. are actually is being taken from them, you know, from just a horrible natural disaster. It's heartbreaking shit, man. And I imagine there's going to be waves of that for, you know, for us who so far have been

kind of a safe distance from this stuff, but for our colleagues, for everyone who's going through this, to even know the extent of what's happening is really hard. And as you said, while so many people have evacuated, including people we know, people we care about, who don't know what's left of their neighborhoods, have no idea what's, what's kind of left standing. And so to see already whole neighborhoods basically wiped off. the map, in particular by the Palisades fire. Incredibly heartbreaking stuff.

And I don't know how anyone is supposed to deal under those circumstances, as you mentioned, like with not just evacuating once, but potentially twice and three times as this kind of ring of different fires is engulfing Los Angeles right now. It's it's hard to even wrap your head around, JV. Yeah, I've spent the past two days largely refreshing my Twitter feed because I've just been dying for information just to see what's going on there. It's been really difficult to experience this from afar. Obviously, being out of harm's way of no longer being in L.A. is an advantage.

But, like, you know, I've been texting people like I'm my mom, just like trying to make sure everybody's okay. And in a twisted way, it's like it's been nice to remind myself of the community that I have back there, especially with all of you guys, especially with some of our colleagues. But this is a really scary time, man. It's just really heartbreaking. I spent a lot of time in Altadina in particularly. I was like there. every couple of weeks hiking in those mountains. And so to see the devastation there has been

has been just really, really sad. Two things I'll say are, I know a lot of like celebrities' homes and everything in the Palisades and people are kind of like clocking and tracking which celebrities lost their house and all this stuff. There are so many people, just normal people, working class people. Former like refugees and people who transplanted there to get away from oppression that I've known who grew up in Santa Monica and whatnot. And so, uh, they're just, a ton of just normal people who've got caught up in this. So don't get too caught up in like the celebrity element of this. And too, it's just like as a new homeowner, it is unbelievable how quickly your identity

and everything about you gets wrapped up in your place. And so I know it's great that the fatality count has been relatively low as far as we know right now. But like, man, people just just whole lives ultimately get represented in these properties, just like, you know, your relationships with your friends, your family, your kids. your kids, your pets and all that. And so, you know, I'm just feeling for all those people because I understand it. Like these things just come to represent you. And for a lot of people who have been there for decades and decades, your legacies, you know, your generations of family and whatnot.

So really, really sad today. I just, I just hope for the best for everybody, give what you can, if you can, to some of these causes that are going out there with firefighters and some of the, you know, the food donations and stuff like that. But our hearts are very much with all of our colleagues and everybody in LA right now. Definitely. And so to make it just a very awkward pivot, we're going to talk about some basketball as a way to do so. I feel like we need a pallet cleanser.

So this new Leangelo ball track tweaker has been storming the NBA. I have it going through my head all the time. I was in my car yesterday. It fired up immediately because it's the last thing I'd been listening to in my house. I get it on one. hand, it is a banger, but was, as someone who I would probably go to to diagnose this, can you explain what is going on here? Because it's across all sports, in particular the NBA. I think we're just really in a nostalgia moment for sure.

Like, even when you like see like TikTokers or kids on like Tumblr and stuff, like looking at, they're on YouTube looking at old videos of people in the high school in the 90s, like, look at them. No phones. No nothing in there. Happy. Like, there's just, been a wave of this with younger people of just like sort of exploring, you know, cultural artifacts from the past and being like, yo, that was pretty cool. So I think that's part of it. And then I think another part of it is just the power of celebrity, like NBA players, NFL players are very famous people.

They can push a button in terms of getting attention to something like not many people in our society can anymore in terms of like just raw. wattage of attention. And I think that combination of like being in a nostalgia moment and like very famous people pumping this thing have combined to make this thing a bit of a phenomenon. So Jello is an industry plant is what I'm hearing from you was. Also, could someone explain to me what industry plant actually me? The idea that that itself is a resented thing, I just like can't wrap my head around. There's no real true meaning to it. I think, Let me tell you, they're all industry plants.

Everybody is an industry plant. 100%. I think what people, when they're talking about industry plants, it's like when something pops up and become successful, and people don't know that this person has deep-rooted industry connections. And that there is like a machinery, a literal machinery, especially in the music industry, that will, like, push your button to get you played on radio,

get you on certain playlists, get you, you know, make sure Pandora is feeding you. Like, there's like an actual machine that puts you a button. push his stuff out. And I think when people feel like I didn't know this person had a connection to the machine, it feels like it was just implanted there. Like, oh, it's a plant. Whereas

like, guess what, guys? Like, so is Beyonce. So is Taylor Swift. Like, the machine is pumping all of these things to us. So is group chat. A Spotify podcast. That's right. That's good. I mean, apparently we're helping pump Jello's numbers up. Not that he needs it

at this moment of time. But you're right that the sports element of this and the NBA element of this is particularly odd. And, you know, it's certainly not the last time, or the first time that an NBA player has released a track or an NBA adjacent player has released a track. But I can't remember any Dame Dala tracks going off like this one or being played in arenas outside of his own home arena.

Well, that seems to be the big part of it. It's that Jello, it's surprising that he did something this good, but there also does seem to be a little bit of an in-joke to all of this. There's a real, like, mean-coin thing to this. Yes, exactly. Whereas people are like, oh, this is good, but it's kind of weird and funny in a way. This is meme culture. This is irony of the internet culture just taking hold.

And it's now just like normal culture to the point where this is probably the most popular song, at least in our little subsection of the culture. Well, I feel great about that. I feel great about everything you just described. The balls just keep winning. Well, it's such a big deal that teens are planning. it in locker rooms, as was alluded to. And the Cleveland Cavaliers, after beating the Oklahoma City Thunder, talked about how they were going to then just go bang that in the locker room to

celebrate, including Darius Garland in one of his ESPN interviews. Like, we're going to go celebrate with Jello, soundtracking this. Obviously, a huge win for the Cavs overall, not just to get to hear Jello, but to beat the Thunder. Two historic matchup last night, two teams coming in with 10 plus wins, both of them into this matchup. Obviously, the Thunder lost. in the NBA Cup, we don't count that. 30 lead changes in this game. Eight ties and the largest lead was nine points. This one lived up to the hype, Rob.

What did you think about this victory coming out of it? I think for one, we've been getting really good basketball for late December, early January fair. And I don't know the exact reason for that. Maybe there's just some of the matchups on the schedule. This was one that coming into the year, I'm not sure people would have pointed at Cavs Thunder as being a marquee event. But it turned out to be, and it turned out to be because the Cavs had been fucking amazing this season. And just pass this test in every conceivable way. I think it was so instructive to get Thunder Celtics and Thunder Cavs in such close succession

and see the differences in how these two teams right now are trying to navigate playing against the best defense in the world. The Celtics were held to, I think, the lowest scoring half for any team all season in the second half. The Cavs dropped what? It was 41 in the third quarter alone. They never got out of step. They never got out of rhythm.

They never got pulled out of their flow and how they play. I think it would be hard to be more impressed by the way that the calves have been able to not only form but stick to this identity that they've cultivated over, really the bulk of this season in particular, building off of things from previous years. But this is something totally new

what they've been able to put together over the last couple months. Yeah, I think the Cavs' offense was coming in was going to be their biggest question mark in terms of, you know, when they did have success last season, we talked about it a bunch. It seemed to be when like some of their guys, were gone and they could play this like different style more modern you know four out type of style

um and we were like oh let's see if they can actually make their marquee pieces fit together as a whole and they've done that so it's like obviously they've been doing that all season but i think what impressed me the most about this game is that yeah they ran their shit and they did it to a tee but when they were forced to not to Evan mowgli beat people up one on one There it is. Got to the rack. Dribble drives. Like, played with force.

Evan Mobley was an individual contributor in ways that he just has not been in the past. This is a new level. This is a new phase of this guy's career that we're watching in real time. That was crazy. And even Garland in Crunchtime, he just straight up beat guys one-on-one off the dribble, got to the rack, got to his floater, got to and some dish-off games. Like, these guys were individually brilliant when the time came for it

against what is known to be the best defense, particularly on the perimeter in the NBA. And so that, to me, was the combination of, yeah, their offense, man, Kenny Atkinson just give him the award right now. Straight up. For what he's done to transform this thing. Their offense sings, like, the pace of the,

The passing, man. These guys get off the ball so quickly. They make their reeds and their attacks so quickly is just like whiplash. And they've de-emphasized Donovan Mitchell. And it's working beautifully. It's last night to do that against OKC who guards people the way that they're doing, you know, let's face it, Lou Doort did kind of have the guy in jail all game. But like, look, they had other answers, which I think that's what the best teams have. Like, you shut off our water over here.

going to spring a leak in this other direction. And I didn't know the Cavs had this in them. And it's like pretty impressive to see. What I like about OKC playing big teams in particular is it ultimately becomes a bit of a holy war for the traditional center. And we kind of saw this a little bit with the box who play obviously big, but Janus is a whole thing unto himself. But the way that Jared Allen acquitted himself in this game was marvelous to watch.

Because Isaiah Hartenstein, for as big and as tough as he is, he's playing out on the perimeter, especially on offense a lot. He's doing a lot of orchestration. He's basically a playmaker with his handoff game and some of the reeds that he's doing. But I thought to start the second half that the thunder were going to expose Alan a little bit because they were getting him more involved high up on the floor and pick and rolls, getting him to garden space. And I was like, that's what the thunder does the team.

But to watch him then flip it when they went to his zones specifically late in that game and basically shut down the thunder attack, a team that's going to want to drive. from the perimeter that like works mostly like tie fighters just kind of like zipping and going in and out basically from the perimeter with their isolation drivers, I thought was marvelous because then obviously on the other end, he's getting a lot of the offensive stuff to work. And just of seeing the way that he and Mobley pass off each other, but also get other guys involved, I think Waz is right. Jared Weiss of the Athletic wrote a really good piece a couple weeks ago just about like the optionality within the cabs offense, the way

that they flow and almost problem solve on the fly. This more than I anything was like a shining example of what those four guys, the core four that the Cavs had previously that we thought wasn't enough, have been able to turn this around so quickly. They're just like, they're so good at solving things in the midst of a game. Yeah. And I think if you're the bigs involved in that, like it's one thing for Darius Garland to help problem solve. He's a great playmaker.

I think he's shown incredible strides this year in particular, but really it's a longer trajectory than that of learning how to be even more comfortable playing off the ball, giving it up early, like finding his flow in more common. complicated schemes. He's looked great doing that. But to be a big who's thriving in that sort of problem-solving way, it's one thing to do what you outlined was, which is beat up on smaller guys inside if you're Evan Moble. You have to be able to do that. But then the double's going to come. And when it does, what can you do with it? How comfortable are you catching on the move and actually making plays with it? And that's where I think the things that jump out of the box score for me,

Jared Allen's seven offensive rebounds, Evan Mobley, seven assists. And really 16 assists between the two of them. Like these two bigs together, catching in the middle of floor and dishing. And Alan has always shown an aptitude for that. I think for Mobley, it's been more of a process. And it's been more of a process on the catch, establishing a comfort zone, being safe with the ball, feeling overall like you know what your reeds are.

And those reads get easier and easier as the shooting around you gets better, as the flow gets better. Like all those things are working in his favor. But he just looks so much more at ease, trying to make those plays against some of the best, like, swiping small defenders in the league. Right? And it's not just, you know, the steals mavens that you think of on the Thunder. Like, J-Dub has incredible hands, right? Like, there are guys up and down that roster who are so good at prying the ball loose from big guys specifically.

And here's Evan Mowgli doing exactly what the Cavs needed to do to keep their offense in flow. Yeah, Mowgli has just acquitted himself and rather quickly. Rob, in particular, are you feeling just like a proud papa here? I feel wonderful. It's really, it's really, you know, I needed the lift. Evan Mobley is providing it, it's so cool to see these sorts of slow burn developmental stories where, yeah, they hit a little bit of a snag early. I think for Mobley in particular,

his body needed to catch up to what ultimately his potential could be. He needed to get stronger with the ball. He needed to get stronger in his base. And he needed to just get comfortable with these sorts of reits. And the Cavs roster around him needed to get to the point where it could accommodate everything that Kenny Atkinson is trying to do. Like you give Kenny Atkinson the Cavs roster of a few years ago. I don't know that it's quite ready.

You know, I don't think the shooting is quite there. I think overall there's too many guys who are trying to hold the ball a little bit too long. Everyone kind of needed to come along in their time. And now you just see everyone finding the role and popping off. You see Ty Jerome having an amazing game. Todd Jerome, New York City's home, baby. You see JV come in and off the bench. Canning 3s.

Great game for you, Justin. Just incredibly does his hair. He really just made a pivot that I don't know if I could follow him down that path. Do you think you could pull off the headband like that? the headband yes maybe not the flowing locks i don't know if i have much flow to me i think you sell yourself short so i have i have that lettuce gene in me but no i mean mobly moby has been spectacular potential all-star this year i would expect him to get in there i think my thing with mobley wasn't so much that i ever denied that he could get to this point i think it was more that people rushed to

assume that he are ready was some rare combination between like kevin durant and sure and kevin garnett The garnet comps were out there in full force for sure. But he just has such like a preternatural feel for things. And this offense is really just kind of brought that to the four. Mitchell, as was what alluded to, 11 points in this game. And just didn't seem that like it mattered because those guys were doing so much damage against a thunderline that like as good as Hartnstein is, not much of a rim protector. And there really isn't anybody out there without Chet there.

This is the first time was that I felt like they needed Chet, you know? In the cup game, yes, but in this one in particular, like they needed the pop, they needed the extra room protection. Yeah, I think, you know, this team, I think especially when the second half started, it felt like the Cavs, Atkinson was like, guys, we got to beat these guys up in the paint. And it felt like they were just so committed from not just dribble attacking, but like penetrating an interior pain passes, which oftentimes, like, it's the most constricted space. these are tough passes to get off. They felt committed to that process, which I just thought was interesting.

It's like, no, this is where these guys are deficient. This is where we're going to attack them. And yeah, the size thing, the interior size thing, is going to be an issue for the rest of the year, right? Like, that's their biggest weakness. This isn't the best teams, you know, if they have size, they're going to find ways to exploit that. I think lucky for them, like, it's not a lot of teams

that can just be like, oh, we're going to, you know, like we're going to get Jonas Valanchunus a beat. Like, that's not going to work. It has to be a more sort of group effort in doing it. And I think with the bucks, what we saw was that, like, both Brooke and Janus were both, like, committed to this, like, you know, attacking the paint, attacking them from up close. And the Cavs did that last night as well. And yet, just to get back to Atkinson and Mowgli, I was reading Bontemps, my guy, Tim Bond temps at ESPN, he had a Cavs piece up.

And he was like, yo, in his first meeting with Donovan Mitchell, he's like, yo, you don't know how good Evan Mobley is. And I think he shows some flashes at the end of the playoffs. And we highlighted that. It was like, yo, this is the direction he needs to go. And he's actually built upon it. And it's like really, really cool to see. Yeah.

I think overall, the fact that he's been able to establish himself in that way is a huge part of what's happening collectively. I just, there's so many steps of incremental improvement that are happening at once. And I think we can zero in on Mobley. And we can talk about Donovan Mitchell almost by default because he's their best player, even though there's something much more collaborative happening here. The fact is, we're going to zoom out at the end of the season, and the Cavs are going to have one of the best records in NBA history.

And we are trying to contextualize what that means and how good they are. And like, what if they play the Celtics and all these things? They've lost four games. It's crazy. At this point in the season, they are tied for the fifth best record of all time after 36 games. The four teams that are ahead of them, three won the title, and the other are the Warriors that won 73. So at least getting to the NBA finals.

Like, that's the threshold of what this kind of regular season excellence is setting up for them. Like, they have played at that sort of level. And it's getting increasingly difficult to not take them seriously at the highest possible levels of contention. I feel like even on this pod, we've been hovering. around it is like, oh, it's a Celtics conversation who's going to challenge the Celtics. I don't know, man.

Like Boston has proven a lot. They certainly are trying to get themselves back together, getting Chrisaps back in the lineup. I just think it's much more of a joint tier one than it is who's going to challenge the Celtics. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm definitely getting there.

I definitely don't think the Celtics are giving it there all right now. Of course not. And I think that's the right thing to, that's actually the right approach for them. again, a group, it's not like, you know, like when the freaking, it's not a team that just coalesced, like some big three that got slapped together and like, oh, we're going to be fine in the playoffs, you know, or the clippers when they first got Kauai and Paul George.

No, we just smacked together a whole brand new concept of a team, but we're taking the regular season and we're going to figure out what the actual cohesion is as we go. That's not what the calves are doing. Okay, the calves are peddled to the medal. Yes. We are finding out who we are in this regular season and we're going as hard as we can to do so.

The Celtics don't have to do that. They are deeply intimate with who they are as a team. But it's just, I mean, the calves are putting it on paper, man. Like, they're putting it on the floor. They're looking like an elite team. And the thing, too, about the defense as well where, you know, I just thought Shay, it just felt like he was getting everything that he wanted, man, at every single instance.

And the Cavs' biggest weakness is definitely their perimeter defense. Sure. Your point of attack is Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell. That's nobody's idea of all-MBA defense. And it was like, fuck it, let's do his own. And it worked. Yep. Like, they can't, Shay Gilges Alexander and we took four free throws last night.

That's crazy. You know, like, I don't want to say they shut this offense now because they didn't. No, no. The Thunder were hitting. Okay. They just couldn't stop the Cavs. Right. Although, I will say if we're going to talk about the Thunder

part of this. The one thing, the problem solving thing, ultimately flipped, I think, for OKC, because when they went into zone, it just seemed like it befuddled them enough to where they couldn't really pull themselves out of this. And that's where their three-point shooting, I think, and their lack of it, and lack of a reliable three-point shooting, I think really came to bear. Honestly, I don't even think the margin was that big. It was four threes were different. It just felt like the Thunder didn't have the consistent source of offense if they weren't driving and having success, because there was one play in particular late in that game in the where J-dub, who had a very good game up to that point,

I was ready to talk about, oh, he played with physicality. He had those breakaway fast breaks where he was just like no breaks, like running into the stands, basically, in order to score. He just, like, had one where he got past his defender, saw Allen and then just, like,

high-tailed it out of there. It just didn't seem like they had the answer there. And that's ultimately where you would like them to hit a couple threes, get Allen outside of the paint. It's probably where the Celtics would have more of an advantage. The Thunder, I kept wondering, like, man, they can really use a Cam Johnson, someone they know can hit a three because then go into Dorr and Wallace, who played particularly well, hit a couple threes. Like, they're just not that

consistent release valve in a way that I think you need. And the, the calves who are, we should mention, not the groundbreaking sort of offense that the Celtics were last year, are number one with the bullet offensively because they're just so good at being a bunch of different things. They just like, they don't have to be relying on the three, even though they shot really well this year overall, but also in this game. They're just like they make things work for them no matter what. And the Thunder just didn't have that late in the game when they needed it. I agree with that.

I just think overall, like, OKC's offense felt fine to me. You know, obviously ebbs and flows. It almost always does, even in some of their better games. It felt like that third quarter was usually what in any other game would have been the Thunder haymaker. That's what gives them a huge lead where they're running away with it going down the stretch. And the calves were just with them basically every step of the way, making their own monster runs. So I just think. we're at the point to pick

apart your language a little bit wise. You were saying that the calves are playing like an elite team or feel like an elite team. I just think they are a fucking elite team. I just think we need to put them at that sort of level. It's 40 freaking games or whatever it is. Like this is a sample.

This is not like small sample size season. This is a credible sample. Like this is what the team does. Like it's incredible. I think this matchup probably gives them the edge as the best regular season team in basketball right now. I'd be surprised if they let that go at this point. They're just kind of a buzzsaw at this point. They have the depth in order to do so. Their guys haven't missed a lot of games. That's one thing that's been working for them. And maybe if they lose one or two of these guys,

that starts to balance out a little bit. I look forward, though, into the playoffs where this ultimately lies, just the matchups and how they play out. And on the one hand, I do think the Celtics, their ability to push the math with the three-pointers is probably where I would lean. at this point, just because even though the calves are still taking a lot of threes, they're making a lot more at this point. But I just don't know how to balance that out. And if the Celtics aren't making their typical amount, does that ultimately tilt the other way? Because right now, the Celtics aren't shooting well from three. And the problem is, is three of that lock solid five-man core is shooting below league average, Drew, Christopps, Prasengis, Jalen Brown, all shooting under 35%

right now. And Christops in particular hasn't looked right. Like he's not shooting well. He also isn't getting them the advantage in the middle of like if you want to throw a zone at them like the calves in this game. And so I'm kind of teeter tottering here because on paper, I think the Celtics match up very well with the calves. On the other hand, they haven't played in a way that I think would portend to being able to steamroll them in a series. And so those are the kind of things up and down. This is honestly why I didn't pick the Celtics going into the season. Not that I didn't think the Celtics were going to be good. I just think it's going to be harder to replicate what they had last year.

And a big part of that was just like shooting the hell out of the ball from three. Yeah. Yeah, I think before the past like two weeks or so, like I would have thought that the Celtics, if they play the Cavs in the playoffs, probably winning six games. But like at no point in that series do we think the Celtics could actually lose. Now I'm beginning to be like, oh, this is going to be a fight. They're going to they're going to fight these. guys on toughness, execution, like, they just are a beautifully coached outfit and they're so

confident in what they're trying to accomplish. Like every single possession, they're confident in, you know, the things they're running for Mobley. They're confident in letting Garland go one-on-one. They just feel so confident, man. And that stuff is beautiful. And again, again, just watching them last time, just struck by, like, this team just looks so different from last year.

And the only thing is Kenny Atkinson. It's the same team. Pretty much. Healthier, healthier for sure. And new coach. And, you know, and it dawned on me because, you know, I ended up watching the Nuggets. And DeAndre Jordan was getting a lot of tick. And I was like, Katie and Kyrie ran this coach out of town because he was not starting

a washed up DeAndre Jordan. Over. That fucking happened. And because he had the gall to start this Jared Allen. Jared Allen. that's a thing that happened I forgot about that in our NBA

unbelievable unbelievable so who do you guys like if you had to gun to your head right now who are you picking in a seven games series I'm still Celtics I'm not off of my Celtics thing I still pick Celtics I just think the question of who's going to make it to the conference finals

is a little bit more of a closed not fully closed but a little more closed than it was for me even a couple weeks ago right we had a conversation we had a conversation conversation recently about that very thing, like the Knicks and Cavs kind of going back and forth and talking about the merits of both of those teams. I, I, the Knicks are not at this level of execution. No. They haven't been as healthy.

They've had some guys in a lineup, especially lately. Granted, I just don't trust their level of play and their level of overall, like, confidence in how they execute the way I do Cleveland right now. Yeah. And I think what we saw when they played OKC, um, Brunson kind of went a little hero ball at the end of the. the game where Cat is being guarded by a freaking guard. Like, we love J-dub, but like, I'm sorry. Like, Cat needs to get some touches there. But I think these are wrinkles that can be ironed out.

Like Brunton has been just used to being the freaking he man of the team. It's particularly in crunch time. That's been his role. And so I understand why it didn't happen. But, like, that's something they have to work through. As it feels like the Cavs are just like, yo, we know what we want to do. given the matchup and stuff like that in a much better way. So yeah,

they're just ahead of them in terms of execution for sure. Yeah, I think the Knicks are really good. And I want to make this call it. The Celtics, I don't think, have taken a step back. I agree with you that they are not going full speed during the regular season, as they shouldn't. They haven't been fully healthy and incorporated in the way that I'm sure they would

like. All that stuff is going to come over time. I think the Celtics are more or less the same team, given some of the three-point variance that you talked about, Justin. I just think the calves have closed that gap significantly. So it's less like, oh, the Celtics are worse and more the calves are at this level. And if you're one of these other Eastern Conference teams, your question is not how do we beat the Celtics? How do we beat the Celtics or the Cavs? How do we crack as the Magic or the Knicks or the best case

scenario, Sixers or Bucks or whatever? Like, how do you crack that group is how I think you have to think about it now. I still think the Knicks are in the mix. If I had to come up with a tier, I think it's three teams on this. And I know that the calves have been white years, better than both of these teams in the regular season. It's just like at a certain point, like the regular season ultimately is just a litmus test to get to the point where I'm like thinking about the matchups. And I still think the Knicks have something. They've been really bad when they don't have their full five man lineup.

And that's a concern because their margin for error is literally one injury away from being like a first round out or being an NBA finals team. I just think it works. And in particular, I think it works against a team like the like the Cavs who is a little bit more traditional with their big men, even though they are so skilled and their passing is like on another level right now. I just think cat is going to be the difference. You know, cat used to be the difference in the wrong ways for the Timberwolves. I think he's the difference for the right ways for the Knicks. I just wonder like, who's following out there on

the perimeter? Josh Hart's hitting. I still think that matchup works in their favor. It's a toss-up. I wouldn't necessarily say that the Knicks are going to win that matchup, but I think they're in the mix here. I think it's three teams. I don't think it's necessarily two. That's fair. The Thunder, though, do you think about them any differently coming out of this matchup? They've built a pretty sizable lead six games right now from the Rockets in the West. But, you know, two games where the big men had an advantage doesn't feel good coming out of it, Was? Yeah. I just don't, I don't think the Thunder are as clear of favorite as their record would indicate. That's just my, yeah, in the West. That's just my opinion. And, you know, a lot of it is my own biases towards

young players and like getting in, you know, these big games and all of that stuff. Like, J-dub has been much better this season, but, you know, in the playoffs, he was a diminished form of what he did in the regular season, right? And, you know, again, it's still going to be like Wiggins and Kaysen Wallace and, you know, a bunch of guys that got to make shots that I just don't personally trust to do so in big moments. Extremely rude. Casein Wallace is out here canon in this shit. I don't give a damn. I don't give a damn. You got to do it in the playoffs and then do it in the finals and then do it again.

No, but I really do, I just think they're not as bulletproof as their record in terms of their distance from everybody else in the West, in my opinion. But I do think they are still, they got to be the favorite because if not, like, they've just played better than everybody. Like, you know, and I know that's not like some cutting analysis, but, like, it's true. Like, you can't, like, reasonably say they shouldn't be looked at as the team that's going to come out the West. I just think it's going to be a dog fight for them.

See, I don't know that it is going to be that much of one. You think they're going to breeze to the finals, Rob. Let me clarify. I don't think they're going to just beat the tar out of everybody. But to me, where I would push back against what you're saying was, is they're not an infallible team. They are a team that can be beat. But the margin, if there were a more compelling second best team in the West right now,

that was like, oh, a Cavs-level contender, that was right on their tail, then I'd be right there with you. I just don't see that team out there. I think there's a lot of really good teams in the West in that kind of next group. And most of them have to get healthier or have to prove something

or have to clarify something about their roster. The Thunder are fully clarified. And they have moves they can make if they want to. They're going to get Chet back at some point. They're going to evolve over the course of this year, but they're already so freaking good. And a game like this in which they lose to the best regular season team in the league

doesn't dissuade me of that. You know what's so crazy what six weeks can change because like, don't you guys remember we were like, oh, the goddamn Eastern conference, we need to consolidate the conferences and the playoff, the East is a joke and blah, blah, blah.

And now we're just like, the Thunder are way better than everybody. The West is a joke, blah, blah, blah. Like, it's kind of The East is still a kind of a joke. The West is at least watchable, I would say. It's just a lot of middling to above average, whereas the East, there's just a clear cut division

between very good and very bad. I agree with what Rob is saying. I don't know who is catching the thunder at this point because the Mavs feels like they just keep getting more injured as opposed to less because now Kyrie has this like bulging disc thing, which just doesn't feel good for a mid-30 small guard. I will say Denver has acquitted themselves very well in recent days where it's like playing without Yokic, giving the Celtics to run for their money, and then blowing the clippers

off the court. Obviously the clippers probably playing with a little bit of a heavy heart there. Kwai wasn't there and specifically to go back and deal with his family. But like the way that Russ has just come up big again and been like a dominant force just with his effort is like give that guy props. They've shown all. I thought they were done. When I saw them important, I was like, this team needs a trade or they're done. They've really like picked themselves out the floor.

So credit the Nuggets. Big up to Russell Westbrook. And I guess the Eastern Conference is like a gilded age dystopia of halves and, you know, abject poverty. And the West is like, you know, a Scandinavian country. No. With social safety net, you know, very little homelessness. It's nice. The pandering is unbelievable, but I also support it.

Here's the thing with the Thunder. I think it's ultimately going to come down to the Chet test, where it's like, I think you can convince yourself. On his Instagram, very, chat's coming back. He's looking strong. Is he? Triple stepbacks on the Instagram. You know, obviously I'm anti-sizzle rule,

but I got excited because I'm a chat guy. Okay. Just looking like a 1999 skateboarder on the sideline. I don't know what the kids are doing with their fashion these days. It's really, it's really troubling me. I just think you can convince yourself. He's the solve to a lot of our issues. Makes us a little bigger. The rim protection, no longer much of an issue. The shooting, he was shooting at a 38% clip before he went out. He's a pretty reliable shooter there. I just think the problem is in the playoffs. You wonder, like, is he going to be as consistent and is locked solid and, like, dependable? as he needs to be. Still young, still developing this out. As we've seen with J-dub, he's not bulletproof, even in a matchup like this. He was good in this matchup, but there were times where I was like, oh, need a little bit more J-dub. So I don't know. I would like to see them go out, get another shooter.

They can easily get Cam Johnson. That's what the resources and the assets are for. But I don't know. Like, on the one hand, they're just so precious about their culture and bringing up the young guys through the feeder system. On the other hand, Sam Presby is the same guy that traded for Kendrick Perkins and got rid of Jeff Green. He traded for Carmel Anthony when it didn't seem like that was much of a good idea. And so I'd like to see a little bit more wheeling and dealing, Sam, this deadline,

but my gut says that that's not going to happen. I don't know, man. It feels like what the thunder are going for with this apron and how cheap they've always been, their ownership anyway, which is why, like, San Presley is just bulletproof in my mind, like the constraints that this guy has to work under and he still delivers a quality, product even it's just it's absurd what this guy does he's he's a freaking oracle um but i think what they're it seems like what they're doing is we're going to have our three max guys chet jdub and shay and like these vets are going to come in and out but realistically we're always going to have these rookie contract dudes yeah playing for us cost controlled like keep it cheap on the periphery

they're going to keep they're going to end up keeping these picks and that's just what it's going to be like we're just going to rely on our scouting, our player development, keep costs low. Like, Hartinstein is a three-year deal. Like, bro, by the time, you know, these J-dub and Chess Max come in, he's going to be gone. They're going to have some other center on a really cheap deal doing what he's doing now. And so, yeah, I don't think that.

It feels like they're going to be very reticent to get rid of those assets because it feels like that's the direction they're going in their team building. Yeah, I could definitely see that. And honestly, you can see the wisdom in it, given the way that some teams are really locked in right now, particularly with the second apron. So if you're expecting these big contracts, which the Thunder will have and should have, you have to plan ahead for that stuff. In the way that perhaps the Thunder of years past, like, didn't quite navigate that situation as well as they would have liked to when James Hardin's big payday came, for example. And so, like, this is a chance to rectify some of that. This is a chance to keep this particular core together and growing as they can.

And financially speaking, that's one of the ways you accomplish. is by drafting younger talent. That said, there's probably a middle ground there where a Cam Johnson, for example, I think you're right to point to, Justin, because he's not terribly expensive. He's not overwhelming to what your roster construction is right at this moment.

He feels like a reasonable target. And a guy who could really help this team, I would say particularly given, like, I feel a little less good about, for example, the Isaiah Joe minutes than I used to. There's just like a little bit of a tipping point in his shooting where it's like, If you're not the best shooter in the world and you're Isaiah Joe,

it can get away from you pretty quickly. And so if they can get someone who's just a little bit bigger, a little bit more versatile, a little bit more consistent with their shot for this season, that could be a meaningful thing. Also, like, I don't think it's going to be fun when Kenrich Williams and the other Jalen Williams are playing in the playoffs. It's not going to be fun for OKC fans to watch that.

Williams playing is always fun for me. I strongly disagree. I think those are the guys, along with Uzman Jay. who are like the soft spots in the rotation. And I agree with you. If it was up to me, I would roll them together with as many picks as it takes.

Just get Cam Johnson in there. You have a solid 3-D guy who you know can drill a shot in the fourth quarter when you need it. Unfortunately, like, is Cam Johnson going to have the same sort of collegial atmosphere or like our approach

where he's like getting in on the post game huddles and like, do they really want to disrupt what seems like their biggest asset, which is that these guys love each other. They're all a bunch of weird nerds, and I love it for them. But it seems like that more than anything is the thing you don't want to maneuver and like pick apart. Because there's something good going there.

And if you add an adult in the room who doesn't jive with what's going on, will actually disrupt what's going on. I think we can do a favor of Cam Johnson's. Yeah. I think we can manage that one. He does seem like a pretty good hang in fairness. Is he a letterbox? I hope so.

I'm going to do the aggregators a favor, though, and say, host of weird NBA nerd podcast calls Thunder a bunch of bunch of dorks or what was your exact phrase it is weird weird nerds

weird nerds yeah it is what it is I mean we are weird nerds these are our people we should appreciate their antics as much as anybody if they want any cool pointers just come up to Portland

I'll show them a thing or two how to wear normal size pants with the jinkos I can't get over it they just look so ridiculous how are we going to be on a podcast where we are praising Jello's

early 2000's nostalgia, but slamming the clothes. The, like the, uh, the, uh, the associated fashion choices. There are limits. I know that Jello is just aping no limit, but there are limits. Hey,

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See terms at sportsbook.fandal.com. Gambling problem. Call 1,800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. All right, since we're already kind of fixing certain teams here, why don't we get to the next part of our pod? We're going to save a couple teams. I have down here the wolves, the warriors, the bulls. Three teams right slap dab in the middle of the standings in their respective conferences.

You can go one way or another at this point. They need our help, though. in order to get them on the right path, whatever their right path might be. It's different for each team. Do you guys want to start with the Timberwolves? Yeah. I think they need help and they feel pretty stuck to me.

I'm not going to lie to you. Yep. 19 and 17 right now, eighth in the Western Conference, won the past two games, took a lot of Anthony Edwards in order to ultimately beat the Pelicans. The other night,

they did beat the Clippers too again. Every single shot. Yes. Just seems like Anthony Edwards has to be on sicko mode in order to really just like completely win these games. And so, Rob, do you have any, do you have an idea here you want to throw into the boardroom of how we can save the wolves from themselves? Yeah, I think save from themselves is kind of the instructive part of this.

Sometimes I think the only way to save yourself is to accept your circumstances and accept where you have found yourself. I see this is like there's three different paths for them realistically right now. One is that full acceptance. take this year for what it is. Julius Randall is going to walk or he's not at the end of it and you're going to cross the bridge when you come to it but not make any significant moves to your roster.

Path two would be try to trade Julius Randall but realistically it's going to be for a player that's not as good as Julius Randall and on a cost-controlled deal that's going to fit into the scheme of what you're trying to build. Option three, which I think is one you have to seriously consider, is sell but admittedly sell low on Jaden McDaniel.

Daniels right now. Wow. I don't love doing it. Like talking about it doesn't feel great to me. He has not been good enough. And he hasn't been good enough at being the exact kind of player that the wolves need him to be. What makes it tricky is that the wolves are over the second apron, which means they basically, for one, can't trade with any of the other second apron teams.

Like there will not be a wolf's son's deal or a wolf's bucks deal. They're almost literally impossible. Also, they just can't take back any more money. and Jaden McDaniel's contract, as we've discussed on this pod at the time he signed it, is quite reasonable. Yeah. So how you're getting a great player back right now for him, I don't exactly know. But those are kind of the three passes as I see them. Do you guys see it any differently?

I wasn't thinking about Jaden McDaniels just because he's still pretty young. He's, damn, he's only 24 years old, right? He's still pretty young on a really good deal. I think Justin said, eat shit on the memo. Yeah, they just got to take their medicine. smarter people than me got up on their in their columns and on their podcast and was like, look,

Nas Reid and Julius Randall are just going to combine to pick up the productivity slack for, no, I wasn't talking about you, the productivity slack for Carl Anthony Towns is going to be fine. They might even be better than the conference finals,

you know, team that they were last year. And the jury's out, guys. It's not true. And they just need to accept that fact. And yeah, I do think it's try to get off of Randall. But yeah, just embrace the kids that you actually have and that you want to keep.

And that's what it's going to be. Like you wanted to get off of Carl Anthony Towns's deal. And this is the consequence. In life, there are tradeoffs. So all of our decisions. And so this is just what it's going to be. Like you just don't get to be

the best defense in the NBA. One of the best teams in your conference, threatening for a finals appearance. It's over for that. And so be the other thing. Lean into and orchestrating the offense. Leaning to, you know, Dillingham getting some reps. Lean into all of that stuff.

That's a part of this for sure. Because guys, I'm going to tell you, y'all ain't nowhere close as good as you were last year. Here's what I can't figure out as we do revisionist history for, well, practically every single team and every single instance in the NBA. That's what we do here. Why was it that they had to get rid of cat? and not go bear the 29 year old all-nbba guy who shoots like 40% from three who clearly would give us a dimension that few teams have in the league that literally just helped to spark an NBA champion in the Celtics with a stretch five there that they decided to get rid of that guy then gobert who as

good as he has been for that defense and i guess they probably still saw their identity as a defensive team getting older and obviously probably wouldn't scale as well going into a second contract. Instead, they went and got rid of Kat but then extended Gobert. To me, that's like they compounded the original issue of trading Kat by then just committing themselves to a lesser version of what they were before. Like, they didn't reimagine their team with Randall and Devenzenzo. If anything, they tried to recreate it and now find themselves stuck with Gobert because I think you have to consider long-term, significant sort of wholesale changes.

I don't think they could do it. I don't know how they do it. I think that's why Rob perhaps you're bringing up a guy like McDaniels because he would presumably have a lot of value to a certain team that thinks that they can get out the version that he was last year. I don't know who else you're trading in order to completely like just upend what has been a pretty mediocre performance this season. Yeah, I don't even know that their goal in making that trade was to recreate Katz production

or Kat's impact. Like, I think they just kind of accepted that they were not going to be the team that they were and that they were making a play based on financial flexibility, based on not feeling as locked into the roster that they had. And I agree with you. One way out is you try to trade Rudy Gobert. Maybe they kick the market and the trademark, like, maybe people just weren't really angling for Rudy Gobert at that point.

I wouldn't, I would understand it. You know, he is a more limited player. He is a more specific player type. He was in line to make a lot of money. I think Katz contract overall was limiting. Yeah, and easier to move as a player. He's just a more attractive player, even with the terrible deal. And, you know, like, Kat's making like $53 million a year.

Rudy's at like 33. It goes down from this year. It is like a lot of money in terms of the difference there. And, you know, again, I think they just saw the cat thing is just like, we got a, like, this thing is going to get bad fast, and they just didn't want to carry that. It's like 200-something million dollars still left on the deal when they moved it. Like, I get it.

They might not be wrong about that too. Like, Kat has been incredible this season. The wolves have also seen over a pretty extended sample, what happens when Carl Anthony Towns is your full-time five. And they looked at what they had before the Gobert trade and said, we don't feel confident that we can be a high-level team with him as our five. The Knicks have made it work. with a completely different personnel group.

But the wolves have what they have. And what they have is an Anthony Edwards based core. And yes, I think it probably will require some dramatic reimagining. That's not going to happen right now. And it's frankly not going to happen so long as they're over the second apron. And that's where the Julius Randall just walking out the door possibility actually does open up some avenues for the wolf to do something. I think it's probably going to happen for a couple of different reasons.

You could look at Randall himself, not necessarily. being thrilled with the experience. You can look at Nas Reid, not being content with being a bench player forever. You don't think he's going to opt in to $39 million next year? I don't know. 30.9. Sorry.

I honestly don't know. I think he will. I don't think he's getting down on the market. There's no crazier magic than this, though. Maybe he gets, you know, maybe he opts out and he's able to get like 130 somewhere. Maybe it's, yeah, maybe it's the years. It's not going to be getting $200 million. No.

That ain't going to happen. 31 million. It's a lot. And it's only the nets and like maybe the piston, certain teams that actually have free, free agent money. And so I don't know. That's why I think the eat shit plan is probably the most prudent path. That's what we're recommending here.

And that includes, as was mentioned, play the young guys. You're a 500 team. This is not your season, guys. Get Rob Dillingham out there. Play Shannon. Just like, I'm sorry, Chris Finch. I know that you got thrust into a different situation that you were in last year. You probably didn't sign up.

for this, but like, it'd be nice to play some guys other than your solid eight or nine guys. Like, Manat is like a nice little change of pace here. Let's keep going, you know? And I would keep looking for Randall trades. I would expect that he opts in next year and I would look to trade him at that point. The other thing I think would be nice, getting a caretaker because Mike Conley can no longer serve in that role, unfortunately, as much as it pains all of us to say that. Like, if Chris Paul still wants to play next year in the NBA, hey, Chris, want to take a

minimum and basically be the caddy for Anthony Edwards. Or bring him up in a way that you'd Wembe 100%. Also, Tyos Jones, do you want to come back and rewrite some wrongs? Like, you're on a minimum. Like, you think you can regain some cash? We'll move some stuff around to get you back in there. I think they do need a ball handler who will steady the ship. Edwards is outright said he doesn't want to do the playmaking.

And so I think that's a clear sign as any to go out and get that. What's difficult with that is that they've moved Mike Connolly to the bench. and I think it's actually been pretty good and pretty healthy for him just kind of untethering him from Ant and Julius who do so much playmaking specifically and giving Mike Conley more to do

I think has been an overall productive thing and so now we're seeing there's kind of a fine needle to thread when it comes to what you want out of a Timberwolf's point guard because Ant is going to have the ball a lot ideally there is a high level secondary playmaker doing other stuff whether it's Julius Randall

or in the past has been cat or whoever it is as you forecast into this team's few future. And so what the point guard is asked to do is probably a little bit more in line with Dante DiVincenzo's kind of skill set or more in line with like maybe a tenacious defender who can contribute a little bit offensively. Yeah, you need like a George Hill type. A little bit, but and I'm thinking maybe not somebody in the Chris Paul age range. Maybe you want that level of experience and I agree that the sure handedness would be nice in terms of the execution of the offense. But that surehandness is not going to mean that much when Ant is running.

as much of it as he is. And frankly, given the team that they have running as much of it as he probably should be. Well, that's Dante, you would hope would ultimately get into that role. But I kind of like him as like a super six man who could close, but doesn't necessarily have to. For sure. I think you have to look at Nas Reid. He's up for his player option next year. He's probably going to opt out of that. You're going to have to repay him. I understand that he's like a cult hero. But I think you have to start wondering about some of the foundational elements of this team. at the very least reimagining like who are the key components

around Edwards. Also who the hell is going to be the owner? When is this arbitration thing done? Maybe us. I hope so. Let's do a little fundraising. I think we have a good case as anybody. I've never been to Minneapolis, but I heard it's nice. St. Paul, too.

I can move my garden to the roof. Oh, absolutely. The Twin City. Never been. But I'd love to. I would like to say one thing in defense of Julius Randall, if I may. A rarity on this podcast. because

why? Well, as we're discussing how to make this team better, how to change it, how to

reshape it, part of the reason why making the wolves better this season is so hard is because I think

Randall is very complicated, but also very productive. And so it's hard to, it's hard to just plug in

another player or plug in, say, to like decent role players and feel like you're not giving up

a significant amount of creation, specifically of his own shooting, but he also creates for other people.

defensively, he's just not good enough to play the way that the wolves want to play and does not fit with the tenacity that made this team good in the first place. But he's a complicated player produces. I think his reputation around the league being what it is makes him hard to deal. I think the lack of draft assets

for the wolves makes him hard to deal because you can't just attach things to him and all the second apron stuff makes him hard to deal. And so you find yourself in a place where in part because he does produce the way he does, it's hard to just give up Julius Rand and expect to not take some kind of step back, even though he is a weird fit.

He's in the Derozen zone. He's so good and so productive that you can't put him on the bench. You can't really trade him because you need the production, but he doesn't really fit with what they do. It's a weird type of player. Ingram, I guess, is kind of a poor man's version of this as well. It's just like that player really, really tough to imagine. To trade Randall, you're right.

Like, where does he go? I would want him as a sixth man on a good team, probably not what he wants to do, especially because he's going to have to be at his best. spreading the ball out to shooters. Shooters typically play the first units. That's all well and good. But yeah, you're right.

Let's go to the Warriors, though. A team really sad. I see Steph Curry just moping around on the sidelines. It just seems like he has a Charlie Brown cloud over him practically every game at this point. They started 12 and 3. We wondered, is this the new NBA? Just depth and guys? And like, wow, what do we have here?

There's since 6 and 15. they've shortened the rotation, they've started Jonathan Kaminga, they've taken him back to the bench, now he's out because he's hurt. This is heartbreaking for Stefan Curry. It just seems like whatever lever they've been pulling has not been right for what seems like two years now.

Steph said on record that this team is mid, and of course I'm a client to believe him. You look at the evidence, they are incredibly mid. But I think this is a reminder that there are different kinds of mid. The spurs are pretty mid. The pistons are pretty mid. that feels great for where those teams are. It's a beautiful feeling.

The clippers are pretty mid, and I think they're a great story. Legitimately great story this season. When you have a 36-year-old Steph Curry, you're not supposed to be mid. You cannot be mid. Yeah. It's try for greatness.

You have to. The freaking, the team is just so sad. And Steph went out and said, the quote that he gave was that when you've been in the league long enough, You know, and you've played on championship teams and you've played on other caliber teams. He's like, you know, all of this losers, it starts to creep into your mind. Like, maybe with that other caliber team. But you know it's bad because he's so cryptic about everything.

When he says anything close to honesty. No, he can't, though, with this. It's just so, it's just right in front of you. This is, isn't good enough, man. And it's the same thing. It's the offense. It's like they can't get anything going outside of Stefan. And even when he does, it's like, I'll drop 35 to what keep us barely afloat.

We're not smoking people because I made eight threes. Like, we're just barely in the game because I made eight threes. It's really sad. And, you know, the front office should definitely have the balls to do something. And who knows if they will? I don't think they're feeling any pressure for real. Like, because Steph Curry, you know, again, tradeoffs. Like, we love that Steph isn't the superstar.

He's not the cryptic throw his teammates under the buzz. demand a trade, demand roster changes, blah, blah, blah, blah. We love that about him. And he's, you know, cultivated a great atmosphere for the team. But what that also means is that he's not putting pressure on the front office. And they get to rest on there. We're here to speak truth to power. So wait, this is an extreme situation.

Nepo baby's in that damn front office. Earn your keep for once. Lake of kids. I'm tired of it. Well, I have the perfect solution for them or anyone who wants to listen. in Golden State here. I watch Zion Williamson play for 20-some-odd minutes the other night. Yep, yep.

And I saw God once again. He ultimately disappeared the next night. Yeah, what happened on that? Do you know? It doesn't play back-to-backs. And I can't imagine he'll do so probably for the rest of the season. But my God, my God, he was spectacular. And so here's my idea.

It is a challenge trade. I am trading Jonathan Kamen. Minga and all the salaries that need to go along with him for Zion Williams and basically straight up. I want to take the risk on Zion and just roll the dice that Steph can bring him under his wing and we'll just roll forward with Steph, Zion, Draymond, and whatever the fuck is left. Buddy healed. I'm sure we'll still be there because, God forbid, he comes with the furniture now, comes with the house. I don't know. I think at this point, I think a lot of teams need to look like long and hard at Zion and wonder if like the upside is worth all the consternation and all the other

off the core stuff. I think there are a lot of teams that should have that conversation. Like when he plays, he is spectacular enough to warrant it. I just think if you're the Warriors, if you're the Lakers, if you're these teams that are not just desperate, but desperate literally right now for every single game of contribution you can get, he's not your guy. Like, he's not the guy who's helping Steph get through March. And that's frankly what they need.

Yeah, I think they need some. consistent production. It's just, I don't know, for me, I'm attracted to the Zion thing because of the high end of it. If we could somehow manage to get ourselves to the playoffs and, you know, two games, two days and days rest in between games, then this thing becomes very appealing. It is just like in the regular season,

you need these innings eaters on a team. Like, Steph is 36. He just, he's 36. I did it. He's carrying an all. offensive load this way, where it's just like, you know what? The best thing would probably be to just put Steph and pick a roll every possession, every game, treat him like he's Luca Donchich.

Like, that's insane. It doesn't make sense. So, like, I think Zion would be a significant load off. Like, him and Steph playing off of each other would be just beautiful to watch. So, yeah, I'm attracted to that high-end thing. I'm just more, I just think, like, what's really going to take is, like, some kind of, like, you know, Janice crying and saying he wants out of Milwaukee.

So it's going to take a miracle, basically, to fix what's aiding Golden State right now. It looks bad, but like just doing nothing just seems insane to me, though. There's levels of fixing. I don't think there's like a fix on the board that's going to get the Warriors

really into the contending conversation. We're having a quality of, well, a guy who's played one game since November. We're having a quality. of life debate is what we're having with Steph. Like how do we make his job easier? How do we make this era of

Warriors basketball more enjoyable? He's not LeBron, but like you gotta give him something to work with. And I think what frustrates me watching this team from afar is they have all their picks at their disposal. They have contracts that they have let expire year over year in the past

and frankly like make a call on Dennis Schrooter. You know, if you want to trust the experiment and see if he can get his legs under him, I'm all before that. If you don't, you need to flip him into somebody else who might. Kavana Luni, Jonathan Cumminga, if you don't want to pay him. Like, these are people you need to be moving and you need to be attaching picks to to make something happen. I still love the Jimmy Butler idea. I know the reporting is out there that maybe the Warriors are kind of taking their foot

off the gas with the threat of the extension that would have to come with Jimmy Butler. That's fine. You don't want to trade for Jimmy Butler. Like, you need to get into the Vooch conversations. You need to get into the KM Johnson conversations. You need people who can play real NBA minutes at a reliable clip that's going to actually Vooch has been pretty good. He's been good. He's been good. He's made some threes. I can't do.

The centers that will like give them a new dimension. They have this weird fetish because they've never had centers about like getting that big old guy in the midst. Steve Kerr Lab, bro. Oh God. He would be the Warriors third best player in a heartbeat. Maybe their second best player on some nights.

Damn. He's been very good. Well if we're looking at the Bulls, I think the obvious candidate is also Zach Levine. Are you... Can they get him? I think, well, like you said, they'd have to go into the picks. They were dying to get rid of this guy this summer. The Warriors could have had him for significantly less than that.

People could have basically had this guy for free. They could, like, the toxicity around Chicago last year was so insane. They were dying to get off this guy. And now he's killing people. And it's like, you might even make a fucking All-Star team. and it's like nobody can trade for him anymore this is so weird to me

but yeah I think to me Zach Levine is the most appealing of Zion and Vuccovich and you know he's played basketball this season and he is a potential star so those two things in tandem is pretty powerful

I'm sensing some pessimism over the Zion plan I really do think that other teams should look at him I just don't think the Warriors are one of them well since we're already talking about the Bulls, I think that's one team. I think that should look pretty hard

as Zion. They got to start unloading guys, man. That's my thing with them is like, what do we have going forward? And so if I'm them, I'm looking over my roster and saying, who am I keeping? You know? And if there isn't anybody on that list, if there's one player on that list,

I am then looking to trade everybody for someone who might be on that list. And I think Zion, one of those guys, I would be looking to unload Levine or Vuzer. anybody who would give me a pull at Zion, I'd look at Jordan Hawkins, for instance, for the Pelicans, if they wanted to do something. I'm just, I want a guy that I know could be in the next iteration for my team, because what they've built is just a perennial middling team. As much as I love the Josh Giddy experiment, I almost want to wonder if they don't bring them back. I think that would be doubtful at this point. You don't trade for a guy and then let him go and restrict a free agency. Reed Shepard, for instance. Oh, they're not, I don't think you can get it on Reed Shepard, right? now. He's in the G League. I'm not saying he's untradable. It's just like, I think

the Rockets are invested in seeing that and seeing if it can work. So Zach Levine for Reed Shepard and whatever contracts need to get it done. You're not doing that as the Rockets. We just talked about how there's an opportunity in the West. I actually like

the Zach Levine fit there a lot. I don't like trying to make Zach Levine and Jalen Green work at the same time. That's not something. Well, Jailen Green is not long for the team. Perhaps not. You bring exactly in the offseason. Regardless. Jalen Green is he's gone long term.

I would honestly, I would use Jalen Green as potentially the salary, but his weird poison pill off of the extension makes it just like impossible to match him with any team at this point. So I think very much an offseason guy we're diminishing him. If he complains about it, it doesn't matter. We have like four. Kim Whitmore is playing well, even though he's like basically boring with his team on the bench. He made like that whole complaint about it thing. That's not going to fly.

It's not going to work. So, man, I would love to see Levine up there. He's exactly what they don't have. You know, just a bona fide bucket getter. Like some of the shots that Van Vleet has to take in big moments, I'm like, damn, like, these triggers be quick. But at the same time, I'm like, are we going to work into Atari Easton shot?

Like, I don't think that's the answer either, you know? And so I think Levine just makes them so much more legitimate on that end. I'm kind of intrigued by this possibility, the more that we get into it. And not just from the Bulls getting Zach Levine, which would be, sorry, the Rockets getting Zach Levine,

which would be dope to see. Reed Shepard has a potential, like, centerpiece of a deal like this. Yeah. Make some sense. Go spread your wings on a team that actually is in line

with your development timeline. Then what the Rocket, the Rockets are number two in the fucking West. Like, I'm sorry, rookie, you don't get to play. Well, that's my question.

Are the Bulls in line with Reed Shepard's development timeline? Or do they believe themselves to be? The Bulls don't have a timeline. They just exist in the ether. I agree with you, which is kind of part of the problem. They find themselves in a place where, yes, they should probably move Levine. I would think they could play that process out into the summer if they really needed to,

but his value is quite high right now relative to what it is at other times in his career. Vooch, they just need to get something done yesterday. Like, they need to trade Vooch to another team. And I think there are teams that are desperate enough and need bigs who can make a play for that. otherwise you're sitting tight and seeing if Kobe White can take another leap you're looking at Matas Buzales and being like okay what do we have here

you're going to wait and wait and wait for Patrick Williams to do something at some point in his career I don't know what you're looking at if not if you're not trading for someone like Reed Shepard now and not giving young interesting players cracks and looks at these minutes in the way that I think they tried to do with Josh Giddy ultimately even if we didn't agree with the process of what,

of what was kind of being unlocked there. I saw it. I saw the vision. You agreed. This is kind of the conversation I think you need to have with the Bulls. It's like who's on the list of keepers at this point? Who is going to be my long-term solution here? I think they've committed themselves to giddy.

I would imagine he sticks around for whatever next, however long his next contract is. After that, I don't think there's a single player because I think Kobe White is an interesting test subject. He's been very good of late. He keeps getting better. I like Kobe White as a player. He has one more year on his deal at about 13 million, which means he's probably not going to extend off of it. It's probably going to be looking for other options two years from now. They could probably get some great shit for Kobe White, man. That's what I'm thinking. Well, to tie these conversations together, one possibility I was kicking around, given Minnesota's financial limitations, what do you think about like a Jaden McDaniel's Kobe White framework? We can reasonable people can argue as to where the picture. should be in a deal like that.

But Kobe White could be interesting to a team like The Wolves, certainly. Is Jaden McDaniels a useful building block for the Bulls? I don't exactly know. No, of course not. Well, he projects as a role player, but maybe if you think that there's a side

of his game to unlock, then this would be the kind of place to do it. I think if you dedicated to the tank, which they need to do. Basically ridding yourself of any and all point guard play is a very easy way to do that. And then you can move this kid again. You can move Jaden McDaniels again if you need to in the future.

And so I'm definitely for that. I just think the Bulls need to finally have some direction of what the hell it is you're doing, man. Pick aside already. We should say they have a top 10 protected first out the door to San Antonio. And they are right on the cusp of that at the moment. And so if they stay kind of more or less where they are, they're in danger of not having a first this year too. They could easily, again, trade your point guard.

It's over. You're not winning another game this season. Played Taylon Horton Tucker more. There's lots of avenues available to them. I think ultimately Jaden McDaniels, I don't hate it as a swap for White. I think ultimately he's probably most appealing to a team that's already in contention.

I agree. And so it's almost like getting the furniture before you have the house. 31% from three, guys. I mean, it's not been good. And it doesn't look good at all. And a lot of those are open, open shots. Yeah. But this is the problem of Chicago.

I just don't know what the next phase looks like. They kind of did some of the hard work of turning a page under Rosen and a couple other players, but not fully. And so we're left with this mixed bag. And frankly, I would be surprised if they fully turn the page. It means that people will get fired. It also just hasn't been their MO for as long as I can remember, practically. since the Baby Bulls days. And so I would imagine it's going to be giddy.

It's going to be Williams. It's going to be white back next year. I could see them even like convincing themselves that Lonzo on a smaller deal, maybe like a two-year deal for Lonzo comes back, gets jello to come play the halftime every couple days. That's the team. That's what we're looking for. That's butts and seats right there.

But what we're suggesting is that they should raise it down. Somebody goes to those damn NEPO babies in Chicago. Chicago, too. What we're suggesting is something that they're not going to do. They're not going to do it. The last time they had a three-year stretch where they were actually picking reasonably high,

they came out with Kobe White, Pat Williams, Wendell Carter, just like not good enough or a sustained enough stretch of losing to get the sort of building blocks we're talking about. I think there are a lot of players on this team that could, in theory, play a part in a future Bulls team that is relevant.

Kobe White is a great example. Like, he's the kind of guy that I would be a little reluctant to give up even though you see me trying to trade him for Jaden McDaniels here. That's more of the wolves trying to trade for Kobe White as far as I'm concerned. Because he is like a flexible guard

and he can play kind of on and off the ball in a way that if you don't know who your centerpiece is or who your star is going to be, players like that are really valuable. They just don't have the clarity of vision that comes with having, oh, that's the guy we chose in the top five and we are investing in him and we believe in his development

and he's shown, most importantly, shown us enough to actually, actually justify those things. They don't have anything resembling that on the roster. And the time is ticking on guys like Vouch, and the time is kind of ticking on guys like Zach Levine too, who, historically speaking, does not stay healthy forever. So this is kind of a window to make good on those,

the veteran part of the rotation, which admittedly, this is not a super old team. They're just a team that doesn't have a direction. Free Zach Levine, y'all. I think our prognosis here for a lot of these teams is just for them all to eat shit is ultimately what we came down to. Stairs to the void and accept it. Warriors we want to see them try to improve.

But like, yeah, wolves and bulls, embrace your destiny. Your crap teams this year. Sorry, it is what it is. They're all stages of acceptance, I think. It's just in different ways. So, yeah, the Warriors do need to part with some of those picks. The Bulls need to be more open to accepting some and accepting that this team needs to be bad sooner than later.

All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Like we said, up top, thinking everybody in Los Angeles, be safe out there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back at the top of next week. We'll talk to you that. It must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino

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