The Ringer NBA Show - Bomani Jones on Brittney Griner’s Release From Prison, the Current Voice of Professional Athletes, and What the Deion Sanders Move Means for College Recruiting | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

Logan and Raja are joined by Bomani Jones, the Emmy-winning ESPN journalist and host of HBO’s ‘Game Theory with Bomani Jones,’ to discuss Brittney Griner’s release from Russian detention, what it’s like to play overseas, and the voice of pro athletes (1:20). Later, they talk about Deion Sanders’s decision to leave Jackson State to coach at Colorado and the state of today’s college recruiting landscape (28:20). Finally, the guys close out with their Real Ones of the Week (52:00). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Bomani Jones Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani. And I'm Chuck Mindenhall. And I'm Preeti Carroll and together we are three-pack. Join us on the brand-new Spotify Live app immediately after all of the biggest fights in combat sports. And also during the way-ins because that's when the real drama happens. So what are you waiting for? Follow the Ringwere M-M-A show right now on our exclusive Spotify podcast feed. And come join the best community in MMA.

Peace! We're out of here. What up everybody? We got about Moni Jones on the podcast today. But we are going on Zoom audio for him. So it might not be the pristine sound that you're used to from Real Ones, but it's still a dope episode. Check it out, Real Ones up next. What's popping?

Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Roger, we got a friend of the show back in the building. Yes, sir. Fresh off. Fresh off a first take. We got an ESPN zone. You know, he records the right time podcast every week.

And also, season two of his HBO. show game theory begins January 23rd. We got Beaumani Jones in the building. What's up, Bo? Hey, man. All good. How about you? I'm chilling, man. I can't complain. I can't complain about a lot of stuff, but I ain't going to do it right here on this program. We are talking on the heels of Britney Greiner's release from Russian custody. I think she's been there for about 10 months. And she went over there trying to play basketball overseas because Russia is the place that women play overseas. Bo, I'm glad to have you on here.

We did not know that the Brittany news was going to come right when you were going to go on this program. But what is this going to do for how we look at overseas basketball in general, not just for the women's game, but overall in general, how are we going to look at, do you think there's going to be more pause?

Where do we go from here after this ruling? No, people are just going to check their bags a lot more close before they go over there. That's going to be the real. impact check, double check and check again. Because look, the argument that I push back on about this situation with her is the argument that she is there because the WNBA doesn't pay enough. No, she's there because the WNBA doesn't pay a lot. But let's say she's making $2 million playing in Russia. Okay. If she were making $2 million playing in the WNBA and you could

stack another $2 million on top of that first $2 million, she'd be on the plane to Russia to go get that next $2 million, right? Like I think that this was a good opportunity for a lot of people to make points about what WNBA players get paid. I got a problem with a maximum salary no matter what the situation is, right? Like I think that point is there to be made. But otherwise, the conditions that led to her deciding she wanted to go to Russia to play basketball, those conditions aren't going to change.

And most people don't have the financial stability to look at it to be like, damn, they put Britney in jail. I don't think I'm a go. No, I think most of them are still going to go and there should be no judgment of it. Yeah, no, listen, I tend to agree, you know, coming up through the pro basketball ranks and not being drafted initially right out of school, I had to make a lot of decisions, you know, in regards to whether I was going to go playing different places overseas. I know a lot of friends that had to make tough decisions in some pretty at the time.

turbulent areas in the world. And almost always, you know, when you're looking at that bank account and you're looking at the opportunity to put them zeros in it, you go and you try to do your job. And I don't see this one being much different at the end of the day. No, like I look at, like playing overseas basketball is so interesting to me just kind of as an idea, right? Like, I want to do this so bad. I'm trying to think of what job I want to do so bad that I'm going to go hop on a plane

to go to Ukraine and decide to go make this happen, right? Like, if they told me like, hey, man, them real broadcasting jobs over there, they over there in Poland, I would start doing something else in all likelihood. Like the level of dedication, most people don't even want to leave home to go to college or go find another job or whatever it is, right?

Like, athletes go all over the place, right? It's always been like a fascinating dynamic for me. It's just, it's fraught with a lot more baggage when we talk about women's basketball because money is what people respect in this society, right? And thereby we want, or many people want female athletes to get the respect that is in line with the respect that male athletes get just because the story is they are athletes. But it's capitalism, right?

The respect comes when you get paid. But women's basketball, professional level in this country doesn't generate the level of revenue necessary to pay in a way that we would deem as being truly respectful for people of the caliber of these women, right? It doesn't. Now, I've been somebody who has said, I think the WNBA needs to take a loss. The NBA itself needs to take a loss on the WNBA.

Like, I think there's a value in putting extra money in beyond the profit mechanism because there's a value in having this league and what it represents. And also, if you're being cynical, the WNBA creates more NBA fans also because you're selling the game and you're selling to people that you might not ordinarily reach, right? I think that all of those things are the case. they should do that. But unless they start making a lot more money off of it, people aren't going to get paid a lot more money. And what we're going to have to do is separate the way that we view

these women in the context of respect from how much money they make. Now, can they start chartering planes? Yes, because I don't know if you've ever been on a flight with a WNBA team. I have never felt like more awkward in my life than sitting in first class and watching the L.A. Sparks walk to the back of the plane and half of them are taller than me. You know what I'm saying? Like they just played a game the night before. They on a 7 o'clock flight with me

from New York to Atlanta and you see them walking through the airport just dragging, right? Looking like they played a game of basketball last night and then had to catch an early morning flight. Like those are things that can be taken care of, but I just don't think that this issue gets to that other issue that people want to take it to.

Roger, question for you is someone that has played overseas basketball, obviously. You know, you're not on. but like you have played in that and gone through that dynamic. What is what is the mindset in going to a place you don't know, may not even speak to language and also don't know if you're going to get paid on time. When did, because I remember there was this one time we had, we had Juan Tiscano Anderson on the pod and they got into a nice little overseas bag and just like the perils of what it's like

to go into these countries and go into these places you don't know. And I think you talked about a time where you didn't even know the language and how to get to your place wherever you were at. What is the mindset of going overseas and how do you get through that and go into a place where you're not even comfortable and in that environment? You know, look, first of all, there are levels to everything, right? So there are a lot of places that if you and your agent are talking about going overseas and there are offers on the table where you would look at it and say, hey, look, the level here is one where you may or may not see your check, right? And so that's a decision to make. Luckily for me, I was only dealing with,

you know, maybe the upper level ACB type of EuroLeague team. So they're going to pay you. You're going to get your bread unless something catastrophic happens. So that wasn't a concern for me. But I think it was interesting what Bumani said, and it kind of ties into this about, you know, sports being one of the only, you know, realms where you'll just go anywhere to do it. Like I had, and it's a cautionary tale, but it happens a lot of times. time with athletes. Like we put a lot of eggs in one basket. We've been doing it for so fucking long and you've been questing after this to make a living at the highest level. And now that's not there. And a lot of times we don't have fallback plans. I didn't. And I tell my boys this shit all

the time, do not be me in this regard. Like you, I got lucky. So when you come to me with an opportunity to make this bread overseas, I mean, what's my other alternative? So I'm out. Like I got to hop on this plane and go. And luckily, I had some choices. You know, and I chose a team in Spain where I was familiar with the Spanish language. I grew up in the Caribbean in Miami. So while I didn't speak fluently, I could communicate enough to get off a plane and have someone steer me in the direction of where I needed to be. And so I could piece things together. But I was acutely aware when I was there that if I didn't have that background and the team didn't provide a translator, which they did not or a guide.

And I had just been dropped off at this flat, beautiful flat though, like five bedrooms, you get a car. I mean, there's some perks to this shit now. But if I couldn't go downstairs and make out five words out of this whole four sentences that you just said to me and figure out from those five words how to get where I'm going, this would be a shit show. Like, I never get where I needed to be. You know, I could be lost in a city for a month.

So, I mean, there's a lot that goes into that. And then, you know, it's not unlike what. what, you know, I dealt with in the CBA, and it sounds like, you know, the WMBA would deal with in terms of travel and stuff like that. It is a huge, I had been in the NBA for a year. And now I was back, you know, at the highest level of ACB and EuroLeague play. The facilities were a lot different. The travel was certainly a lot different. The accommodations were a lot different. There's a lot that you have to kind of, you have to kind of humble yourself and kind of figure out, hey, listen, is this for me? I'd tell you straight up. Going overseas, that will let you know,

Like you might think, hey, man, I have no backup plan. There's no real other avenue for me to make a living. And you get your ass overseas. And if you, you'll quickly figure out another way to make a living. And you'll figure out that shit's not for you. Because it could be, that's a slap in the face. This is either meant for you or it's not. Yeah, and Logan, I had a former player tell me once about overseas.

The priority is by English. How much English they speak over there. Because the dude was telling me that he played in Israel. And I was a bit more ignorant at the time. Like, the only time Israel came, up in discourse over here is when somebody was dropping bombs, you know what I'm saying? It's the only time I hear hear, like, we've been to be Israel

got beaches. I'll hear nothing about no beaches. All I hear is about strife, right? And he's like, yeah, man, they spoke English and they had McDonald's. And that was a big one. The thing that's now fascinating to me about overseas play, and I'm curious your thoughts about this. The older guys going to China now. And what is so fascinating is,

I can't imagine how much fun Dwight Howard is having over there. getting to play the way that he is all, every big man would have been able to do all this stuff. He's like, man, I wish I would have come over here five years ago. Yeah. Yeah, I think who else, was it, was it Marbury? Was it Staff?

Marbury one. They're not at you with him. Yo, like, see, China's one of those interesting places. Like, again, Spain loves his basketball, right? Now, I wound up up in the Basque region of Spain. Like, so I was up in, at Tao Ceramica. So it might not have had all of the things that, like, a Barcelona, or a Madrid might have had as a city that would have been kind of regular, if you will, for me,

like from an American standpoint. But China is one of those cities. And sorry, but Spain as a whole, while they love basketball, I mean, it's still a soccer country, right? Like, this is what we do here. China is basketball crazy. Like, that's what they do. So you go over there as a Dwight Howard, as a Steph Marbury, as any other player with some stature or even a young player that just wins championship after championship.

you are a demigod over there. They are basketball nuts in China. China don't look like it falling, though. Like, I can say, again, this made me by ignorance again, but I don't know. Nobody would be like, yo, man, we was over there kicking it. They go check out the Great Wall, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, wow, big business is cracking.

They go see what some monks is talking about. But nobody ever comes back for China. I just be like, man, we was bawling out of control. I will say this, but, Moni, straight up, because I know some dudes who played in Tel Aviv, and they do say that about Tel Aviv. They're like, yo, hey, yo, Tel Aviv, and they give you that look, like, hey, yo. And you're like, okay.

They're talking about Tel Aviv, like the first time somebody tries to put you on to Toronto. You're like, Toronto, just like that. And then you go to Toronto in the middle of June and you're like, oh, yeah, this all checks out. All this is great. This is amazing. Vancouver was the one. To this day, I still contend. Steve Francis being like, no, I don't want to go to Vancouver is the, okay.

If you say so, I mean, he wound up in Houston, which is a great. place to be a ball player. But Vancouver did a Scott once said. That was his favorite place that he played was Vancouver. I only went to Vancouver once. We played a, we played a charity game there. You know, Steve Nash is from Vancouver. So after one of those years, he took a bunch of us out to Vancouver. I had never been. There wasn't a franchise when I made the league that had just moved. And I left that shit because Toronto at the time was my favorite city. So I'm going to double down on what you're saying. When I left that shit, it's like Vancouver, baby. I still got to get out there. I have not made it. But nobody's been like, yeah,

I don't know about that Vancouver. Like beach, beach to mountains to like, I mean, I was just talking like the aesthetics of the, like the beauty of the city itself, not let alone the people, but it was incredible. I'm so jealous of the beat riders before me, like in the 90s and stuff because they got to do the, the Pacific Northwest trip where you basically go Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, and you come out of the Bay, L.A. That seems like a beautiful trip. That seems like that seems great.

But, Moni, I do want to ask you, though, just specific. just to the W. This whole thing that transpired with Brittany, what does that say about WMBA player's voice? And the WMBA is a league voice in terms of how they've been able to mobilize and what they've been able to do because I think the last time we talked to,

we talked about the NBA voice and the things and all that stuff. But it seems like the WNBA players have a lot more to lose and are not even remotely as scared in some cases as maybe, or as much as conservative as sometimes the NBA has purported itself

to be. be, especially in recent years. Yeah, they the best at this, right? Like, nobody in sports is like, yo, we got something we about to do. Like, I think it was, um, was it after George Floyd when the women came out there with the shirts with the bullet holes in them? Yeah. They turned that thing around in like a day,

like, with other things to do. You know what I'm saying? Like, it wasn't like, it was just like, all right, we go cancel everything and we go have a meeting and figure out how we're going going to make our statement. No, man, they figured all that out. So quick, I just did first take a little bit before I did this and it was making this point of talking with Chen.

she was like, we're not new to this, we're true to this. I'm like, no, the thing is you're better at this than anybody else is. Like, when it's time to get that going and they did, they put everything in action. Now, where I would raise a question is, how do we determine who does it, doesn't have the most lose in this? And what I mean when I ask that is, yes, the NBA players have more money and therefore that makes the argument that you have more to lose except for the fact that, again, it's capitalism, right? So you have more money, which means we have more money that you can make, which then, becomes I have more to lose, right? Like that's what that's receivable, right?

It's an asset. I'm going to get this money. I want to keep this money. But when you don't make that much money, there's a lot less bullshit that you're willing to put up with if you don't necessarily have to. Because where it's different, I say, between the NBA and the WMBA is women in the WNBA can go find another job that pays this kind of money.

Unless these other dudes want to get out here and start like learning to rap or sing ballots and do shows in Vegas, they ain't going to make that kind of money again. These women, if they want to, they can go to State Farm and move on with their lives. Yeah, right. Plus, they don't, I mean, in a lot of instances, like their U.S. company that pays them isn't paying them as well as that foreign company. So running afoul of the U.S. company to pay you that. I mean, you have another avenue to make money off of the game.

It's just right across the water. I will say this, though, what the Atlanta Dream did when Kelly Leffler was running for Senate, they ain't no NBA team doing that. They didn't just, it'd have been a lot of shutting up and dribbling when it came time to talk about that campaign. You know what I'm saying? They was out there like, vote for the owner's opponent and we don't even really want her to own the team no more. Oh, watch this. She don't even own the team no more.

Ain't that something, right? It wouldn't, can you imagine if, like, even you, when you play for the Sons, and I'm not, this is obviously no judgment. Robert Sarvers, like, I'm running for Senate. You wouldn't go vote for them, but we're not about to have a team rally about it. And that's coming off also the hills of this runoff of war, and warrenock winning in Georgia. Big part of that, what was that, Bumani? It was the WBA players bringing his name to the forefront.

Roger, when we talk about this and we talk about, you know, trying to speak out, what goes through the mind of someone that's like, okay, you hear, you read the paper and you see something's fucked up. What goes in the mind of when you're thinking about maybe speaking out as an NBA player? Is that ever, is that ever, because have you ever been in a situation where you've had to figure that out? No, I can't recall having been in a situation where something was as important and it was putting my feet kind of to the fire of whether or not it meant enough to me to potentially put my livelihood on the line. I can't remember a situation like that. I just think generally speaking, man, like if you're being true to yourself, like,

and your opinion is something that you really believe in and you're not vacillating on that or wavering on that and you want to speak up? Like, I have no problem with that. Like, I don't even give a damn what side of the fence you're on. Like, I am one of those dudes where I have this argument with people around me that I don't have to agree with you to be friends with you.

Like, we don't have to see things through the same lens or the same prism. Like, I'd like to know who I'm dealing with. But once I know who I'm dealing with, like, I'm okay. So it's never been a thing for me where, someone comes out and they make a take that is in the line with mine. And I'm like, oh, hell no, I can't. That's just not my style.

And I think far too many people are like that. But I've never been in a situation where I've been put to the fire like that, Logan, quite frankly. And most people don't, by the way. You know what I'm saying? Like, we got a whole lot of talk about what other people's supposed to be doing on their company time in the name of courage. Right. Yeah. Like, we all work for rich people.

None of them got rich by being good. the only one that's got that argument of team owners the only one that really has an argument like yo I've really got this money almost really is Michael Jordan except for the fact that you know we'll make them shoots

you know what I'm saying like like this is this is kind of what it is we all making business decisions every day about what we are and are not going to stand up for like I talk about this all the time in the context of what musicians we like I'm one of those people that was like

yeah this R. Kelly thing nah not here for it. James Brown, you'll have to take them, them songs out of my cold dead hands, man. You know what I mean? Like, we're all making choices here. Right.

Yeah, yeah. And to that point, but Moni, how do you feel, because, you know, we've talked to you periodically over the years on the pod, and we've also,

we've talked about player voice in general, in the NBA. How do you think that's, when we first started talking, it was in the height of the bubble where, or just after the bubble, where players' voice was at an all-time high

to the point where we're getting slogans on the court, Black Lives Matter, and we've kind of evolved from that. How do you feel, where do you think the NBA player voice is at this point in time, you know, two years or almost more than two years removed from Joyce Floyd in Brianna-Taylor.

As far as I can tell virtually non-existent. A lot of shutting up. A lot of dribbling. Now, the question becomes why? If I want to be fair, right, you could make the argument that the NBA leaned in a little bit too hard at the time. And it began to, like, I thought the mistake they made in the bubble with all the imaging and everything that they did was that in the end, that was still

a television program. And as some, if you were producing a television program, there were a lot of things that were distracting from the reason why people were watching the television program, right? So Black Lives Matter is on the floor. At the time when they did that, Black Lives Matter, as a phrase, had a public opinion that was majority positive. That ain't last, right? So they jumped on the wave at the time, and it's sad to say that that was a wave, but when you really look back on it,

it was a wave. It was a moment. Some things happened right then, but how much sustainable came out of that? You got to go look at different places to figure that out. But it was a moment. But they jumped on the wave,

and after a while, there was a backlash to the wave. They had questions about the television ratings, although I don't know how you interpret the bubble ratings, given everything else. and the entire league kind of took a step back to the point where for the 2022 elections, I saw more about voter registration in NFL games. Yeah. Then I saw an NBA games.

I don't recall seeing players talk about the election in that way. I don't recall seeing the stuff about the Warnock Walker election like you might have seen when it was Warnock and Leffler in the election before. I think that people, I don't know if people stop to regroup. I want to stop and give them credit for the fact that that may be what it is, that people stopped and regrouped, or maybe they looked up and decided they did all that and it wasn't worth it,

or they thought it was counterproductive, you know, or something along those lines. But I don't see much player voice in this. And by the way, in any direction, like when Kyrie got into his little, whatever the fuck that was that we all had to deal with during that time,

you ain't have nobody defending him neither. Right. Like, it wasn't even a matter of man. They're not even coming down on Kyrie. They're not saying anything about this. And I don't want to cast aspersions on people's intent. I'd just be very curious to know why if you took like a broad survey. I mean, even Jalen Brown took like a dip in the kind of defending Kyrie. I was like, no, I'm good. I'm straight. I'm cool. If I'm Kyrie, it's kind of like that time on Twitter when

Terry Cruz started defending Chance the rapper. He was like, oh, oh, okay, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I was wrong. Right. Taylor Brown entrusted his career that Kyrie and Antonio Brown. I stopped being curious about his opinions after that. Then the dudes said he thought that the Black Israelites was the Omega's. And then he also aligning with Kanye West at the last spring. That's just been a weird, weird, I don't know if it's a fall from Grace, but it's just been a weird term from Jalen Brown. It's been interesting.

What happened with Jalen Brown was, white folks is really easy to impress with fairly decent grammar. Right? Like, like, you get your naps and your verbs together. And they, like, part of why, I am not, I don't intentionally mangle grammar when I talk in public, but I don't really make it a point to get it right unless I'm in like a certain place. But part of it is it scrambles white people's brains. They're trying to figure out.

I thought you was so smart. However, you just said, da, dot, dot, dot, dot, it messes them up. And you could think about how many people you know that are run a game on white foes just by talking proper. That's all that it took was talking proper. You remember when Tiki Barber retired and they was about to put him on the Today Show, they had him everywhere else until they realized that people don't like Tiki Barber.

All they really knew was, man, that dude talks really properly. And that's all it took. And so for Jalen Brown, you come off as being like a little intellectually curious, right, just showing that you care a little bit and people think so little of athletes that they automatically get to, man.

That's deep. Right? Right? And it wasn't never deep. He was like 20 years old. How deep could it have been? No, it's just been interesting all the way around in terms of just when you talk about player voice and especially when you talk about when we just talked about Kyrie, like being the voice for the voiceless and whatever that means. It just seems like we've gotten silent in a way that is we're going the other way from how loud we were in 2020 and we're not holding ourselves accountable as much as we should. That's where it seems like we're at. I think that's a reflection of the times that we live in, and I think it's being reflected in a lot of other ways.

Like, you think about this for a second. We're almost 11 years out from Trayvon Martin. Okay. What I thought was going to happen in the music space was that you were going to get the new public enemy, right? You were going to get the new rage against the machine, that we were going to be in this place and in this space where all these things were going on in the world,

and the art was then going to reflect. You see what happens in the late 80s, where you get public getting me coming out. You got ex-clay, and you got all these acts. And this is like a pushback at the Reagan era, the anger and everything that came for the war on drugs and all of that. It all came together as that.

All this stuff's been going on all this time. And you see people make references to things. Like, I don't want to act like nobody's ever made a song that had anything to do with this. But after George Floyd, and they did that weird O.B.E.T. awards where everybody had Black Lives Matter on their stuff. And I think it was Megan the Stallion.

There's on some mad fucking Mac shit and they were talking about Black Lives Matter at the same time. Like, they were doing that. But somehow there's no music that reflects what feels like the, really the anger of the times that's coming out. And some of the legitimate pushback that people have about a lot of these societal factors. And I think it's just across the board, man.

I think that people have basically gotten to the point where they realize all I can get out of this game is money. And that's a real sad point to get to. But I would also understand how people got there. Let's take a quick break. I want to talk about Dion Sanders. And what that means for recruiting and Roger Bill's kids right after the break. Looking to get more out of this NBA season?

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We've been trying to get Bowen for the last few months. And in the last week, he has basically been the avatar for talking about Dionne Sanders. We're going to make him talk about Dionne Sanders on this program. But more so just how Dion Sanders going to Colorado really speaks to. college recruiting and just how we feel about HBCUs in general. As we know that Dionne Sanders went to Colorado, left Jackson State, honestly for a huge bag and a really good opportunity. Raj, I know you've been following this a little bit,

but what does this situation say about college coaches moving on? And what does that say about how that affects recruiting? And when kids are, you know, sometimes sold a dream for lack of a better term, what does this fiasco say about that and where we go? Like, what do people like me who have never played D1 sports should, what can we learn from this? Let me not touch on Dion first. Let's just go to the recruiting game coaching. And so like when I talk to kids and I talk to my boys and they're coming of age where the recruiting thing is happening. And a lot of my son's teammates are five-star kids.

And so all these coaches are on campus every day and they're selling dreams. It's their job. Like we've visited a few places and they're selling like we're sitting in Jimbo Fisher's office and he's selling a dream and we're at another place and they're selling a dream. And that's what they do. So like what I say to kids is don't like the relationship is is part of it, right, with whoever's recruiting you. That's part of it.

But that can't be all of it. You have to find a place that you think systematically like you could like their system that they're running fits your style, whether it be basketball. basketball or football. Now that may change if the coach leaves, but it's got to be a town that you like to be in, like a student body that when you're there on a visit, you could see yourself thriving in. There got to be things about the place that really speak to you and you could see yourself there for four or five years because as soon as that coach, and as soon as he gets an opportunity for upward mobility, he's out. It's what it is. Like, that's the game you play.

So don't attach yourself to somebody relationship-wise and think that if they, you know, aren't there, you can't survive, because he probably, in most cases, is not going to be there, at least in today's landscape of college sports. And so, you know, I was signed by a guy at Boston University, and then he was fired. And I went to play for another guy at Boston University, who I was okay with, but we didn't see eye to eye. So I wound up leaving after two years. You know, he and I are cool now, but like, that's a very, very important thing for kids to realize is when a coach gets an opportunity, I don't give a damn what he's talking about. I really don't. And I like Prime.

And I had no problem with them. Both my parents went to HBCUs. Like my dad went to Morehouse. My mom went to spell me. My dad played football there. Morehouse came in late and tried to recruit me until I was like, okay, what's my official visit going to look like? They were like, yeah, we don't really have the funds to bring you up.

I'm like, okay, I'm out. That was just me personally, right? Like, I can't, I mean, shit, I just got winding down by these four schools. I'm not coming down there to do that. But whatever a coach is talking about is all salesmanship, bro. They're all selling. They're selling, selling, selling. You have to make your decision based on solid factors, and a coach is not solid.

You know what's going to be there? The field's going to be there. The facilities are going to be there. The classes are going to be there. The student union's going to be there. The town is going to be there. That fucking coach, more than likely, is not going to be there. I didn't realize that your pops went to Moore House.

That's really disappointing to hear. I'm glad you overcame that to make yourself into a cool dude. You know what I mean? I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. University class of 01. Oh, shit.

Yeah, we get out here. We're locked in on the road. We got AU.B. We got A.U.B. Right. Look, look, man, more houses. Cool. Hermicane went there.

But I think you put it out something, though, that's very important, which is going to a school for the school and not going to it for the coach. And I was thinking about this just overall as I watched this transfer portal thing. And I feel bad for so many of those kids that are in the portal. And the reason is how many. them dudes are going to go to the league, right? Like how many of them dudes are going to make money off of playing football? And what they're all doing is trying to find a place. It's the market

at work, right? They try to find a depth chart that works for them. They realize they're not going get it here. Okay, I can go get it somewhere else. But they probably not go make the league. And if you don't make the league, it would be better for you just to go to college somewhere for four years, right? Like what you get out of it, the, you know, all the relationship, touchy-feely stuff, right, that is very important. But also, if you're going to be going to, make context and connections or whatever, man, them dudes that play four years at one college, they always get, they always on scholarship, right?

Even if they're not even necessarily that good, they've always got a way in. But these dudes now are hopping, going here right fast, going here right fast, going here right fast, going here right fast. And I'm like, I don't think this is ultimately going to serve most of you, but I get it. They make it the bet, right? They want to get to the league. They want it that bad.

And so they're going to make the attempt to go do it. But so many of these players would be better off picking the campus. And especially, Roger, you know what is too. A lot of them are just doing it for the head coach. They're doing it for some assistant coach. And those dudes, they got no power. They got no agency. They can't help themselves in any sort of way.

And so logically, it's not the right way to make a decision. But on the other hand, one of my former students told me the story. His father played at Michigan State with Match. Right. and my former student was a track star and he told him go to school for track. He's like, if that's what you want to do, then you go to the place that's best for you for track. And on one level, it makes perfect sense.

On the next level, I think my former student looks back 20 years later and the decision he made that was not great for track and one that he regretted many times after making is one that he would do again if he had the chance, right? because you really are, you go into college. Like, that's, that's, that's the thing that you're going to wind up getting out of this. And I know there's money involved now. So, like, the game is just a little tricky. But you can't hop up and leave a school every time.

Like, the kid that played quarterback at USC and transferred to Pitt, and I guess it ain't worked for him at Pitt. And so I was going to go somewhere else. Bro, what are you talking about? You know what I mean? Like, this isn't a win for you. Yeah, there was a kid this morning. I saw it.

I'm, you know, I'm a big hurricane fan. And so I'm in the car with my son and we're listening to local stuff. And, you know, this is a kid. young man played somewhere two years ago. He was at Miami this year. Christabal brought him in in the portal and he's out. He's going, he just announced he's going to Florida State next year. That's three colleges and he'll play, you know, at three colleges in three years. That's not a, I mean, that's, I guess it's not a traditional college experience. Maybe that makes me like an old curmudgeon, but I do think there's value in, in setting up shop. I always tell you this, Logan,

one of my biggest regrets, or it's not a regret because I didn't control it, but one of my biggest wishes for my career would have been to stay somewhere longer than three years because it puts roots down. It puts community down. Like it puts familiarity with a with, you know, with a town and, you know, the networking opportunities that that were lost because I couldn't do that or like, they're not uncountable. Like I wouldn't even be able to quantify that. And so that was a wish that I had had. And I think it's interesting because I was a transfer student. And when I came out of Boston University, there were the old rules, which was they have to grant you a release. There were different kind of releases. Mine was not a, mine was not a release where, hey, look, he's just eligible.

Anyone who needed, you know, to know if I was okay to be seen or given a scholarship had to call BU and they had to let me go. So there were real parameters in place. I had to sit out a year. And it felt so restrictive and it felt like a penalizing system. Like I was 18 and like this isn't my fault. Why am I being penalized for signing up to go to a school that doesn't really fit me and the coach, you know what I mean? Like it just felt, and now as a 40-some year old watching this transfer portal, it's a shit show. Like, you know, and I would have lobbied for it. Like even 10 years ago, I'd have been like, yo, and I still feel like it's tough to tell a 17-year-old, hey, man, we're going to let all these adults pull at you. We're going to let them all come in here

and sell you and your family dreams. You know, some of your families, let's just be frank. Some of those families, you know, whether they're going to play in the NFL or not, but, Moni, you know this, or the NBA. Some of their families feel like that's the meal ticket from the time they're 12 years old. So let me come in here and just pray on that. And as a 17-year-old, you make this decision, it doesn't work out. Now you're fucking stuck. Like, I don't agree with that either. But this transfer portal is a shit show. It's changing, it's changing everything. And you're going to wind up with way too many student athletes, right? Like, they should just get rid of student just let these motherfuckers play sports. Yeah, like, like the portal makes sense, right? In the sense of

matching. Like, it makes it a lot easier. It's basically, like Tinder. You know what I mean? Like, hey, I might want to leave. They might want to swipe. What's up? What's up? Right? And then they swipe, which like is, is efficient and it's effective. But I do think it would be better for the players if you had to sit a year to transfer. There's got to be a better way. And there's got to be a limit on it, too, Bo. It can't be three and four times. You can't do that. Because the next part of it, I'm sorry, I'll let you go because this is just my thing now, is I'm watching what it's doing to the high school athlete. Like, that's who's suffering.

in this. It's the high school athlete who those opportunities are dry. If you're not a five star now, it's really difficult. Like you could get it. I wouldn't a five star. I had no stars. Somebody was going swing on me. Mid majors were going to swing. You know what mid majors you're looking for now? They're looking for the power five kid. Yeah, they don't want the high school freshmen that can't help him for two years. Right. Those are the kids that are getting shitted on. So there got to be better parameters and rules in place, man. Yeah. Like so I mean, the thing for me, it has to be that they can transfer immediately now because quite honestly the grownups messed it up. It's the hypocrisy

of the matter that has made as such that this is what it kind of sort of has to be, right? Is that if the grownups are going to be doing this and all that money being thrown around with the grownups doing it, that's where we wound up with the problem, right? That's where we got. But I don't think at all that it can possibly serve

most of these players to do this. But then you talk about the high school kid, it's so wild how much movement there is in high school. Like making all these moves to get up and wrong. And I'm like, are you, but like, is there any attachment that you have to anything, right? Like, like, I think this era more than anything else, there's no love for institutions. And I'm not saying the institutions have earned the love necessarily, but I think you get where

I'm coming from, right? Is that there is a value to be in somewhere for a while. There's a value to being like, hey, I worked at this place. Like, it seems corny. Like, I think I'm going to get like my 10-year plaque or something for Disney next year, right? And I used to see those things that think they were corny, but there's something to the fact that I've been working for this place. for all those 10 years. Absolutely, man. The whole, the whole loyalty, the whole concept of loyalty

and teaching kids, like, we still choose in my house. When my sons came up, they played for the same park for almost their whole career. I moved my middle son after, you know, after COVID, but for just for one year. So like, you know, it starts at the youth level down here because football's king, right? So you'll see kids pick up, they play at this park. Next year, they all shuffle, they go to the next park, right? And it happens for like five or six years of youth football. And then in high school, I've done the same thing. Like, I've left my son. And I wonder sometimes, just as a dad, am I serving him correctly? Because I believe in, like, listen, bro, here's where you're at. Provided, they're loyal to you, and they're going to give you a fair shot, this is where we'll be.

But every year, it's a transfer portal in high school. There are no rules in Florida. You can literally play football at this local school right here, right around the corner. And when football season is over, as long as you don't practice with the basketball team, you can pick your shit up and go play for the town one town over's basketball team, right, and be eligible to play, play against the school, you just play football for. And then in the spring, when it's baseball or lacrosse or whatever season is going on, then, you could play for a third high school. So these little jokers every year are just reshuffling the deck.

And it becomes, and I get a little sensitive to it because my son's a quarterback by money. It's not a rotational position. Not that easy. Right. Right. So, like, it can't have seven wide receivers. They're all going to play. So like if you are constantly every year, this quarterback carousel is taking place and you are only interested in bringing in someone who has played already and has stats and he's a junior.

And the only reason mine or anyone like mine doesn't is because he's been sitting in your program paying his dues waiting his turn. But every time he's up to bat, you're going to tell me, I got a new older kid coming in. Like, should I be being loyal to that situation? Yo, these teams do not exist to get people to leagues. Like the purpose of all this stuff is not that. And so we're trying to, like I always say about marriage is that we're like trying to retrofit something that was meant. I don't want to say meant because people misunderstand, but was designed to be one thing and try to retrofit it for the new times. And that's where you kind of get to the awkwardness of trying to make this all work.

This stuff was never meant to be so professionalized. But now that the money is so big that it's a safe bet for everybody to do it, all these things just become ways, honestly, for all the grownups on these lower levels to get this money too, right? you know, and it's, it's just not supposed to be. Like to me, if you are in youth coaching to win, you are backwards. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not why we should be here, guys. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you think, you know, Roger has a firsthand look at this because he has a son, you know, playing football, but also AAU? What is the biggest difference from when you were coming up in this NIL, world that we live in, right? Where there's a lot more, at least outward bread coming that are changing hands in full sight. Not to say it wasn't before because we know money changed hands, but what's the been the biggest difference from this NIL world to when you were playing in that AAU time? I mean, the biggest difference, and maybe it's because at the time I was naive and didn't

have a perspective that allowed me to see the adults that were that were kind of praying on, to use, I mean, that's a poor word. But it is. I see it all the time, praying on the kids in their program. Like, that seems to be the biggest difference for me. And they may have existed, but I don't think they existed to the degree that they do now. I walk in gyms all the time, right? I run a youth program. I had two teams.

I don't run a huge, you know, program. I don't, no one pays anything. Like, I foot the bill for all of that. And Bumani, we want to win. But I tell people, it ain't a, like, this isn't a winning thing. We will win because I'm going to teach your kids how to hoop. And I'm going to help them be the best little players they can be. So when they go to their middle schools and their high schools or wherever it is, they're prepared.

They've seen all of this before. They know the rigors of it. They know what's expected of them. They won't slap them in the face. They won't skip a beat. And a coach can use them right when they get there. And so that's kind of what I, that's my way of giving back to these kids. But I walk into these gyms.

And it's a bunch of to Bermani's point about, you know, the college coaches in the high school. It's about the adult. It's about the adult running the program and his relationship with Nike. and how much money he's getting from Under Armour. And this is what we're doing. And I have no problem with the companies. Don't get me wrong. But there are too many people with no real background in the sport.

Trust me, I know from experience. And got no background in the sport at all. And Nike's handing them a bag because they can go out there and get the seven best players in an area to play on their fucking AAU team. The AAU team never practices. Right? They just show up and they're an all-star team that goes out there and has seven five stars on it, but will typically lose to a really good well-coached team that's got less talent than them when push comes to shove because they're not being taught shit.

And it doesn't matter to anyone. All of the adults are getting what they want out of the situation. Like the companies have all the five stars. The dude who don't know shit about basketball who's running the program gets the bread from Nike and gets to say now I have this premier, you know, Adidas program, if you will. all of the adults are happy and they're using the kids, you know, to make their dreams. And that's really what it is. I see it all the time.

You know what you need to start a fucking AAU program now? Used to be the best of the best play AAU. Like the best of the best, you know, it's been watered down. AAU is rec league shit. Like travel basketball is rec league now. Getting your bag, right? You need $300 and pass a background check. That's what you need.

And everybody gets to do cosplay, right? Yeah, everybody can get, yeah. You get the uniforms. Parents all pay for their uniforms because they want their kids on a team. They'll front you a little bread and you'll get it a little knucklehead to coach the team who don't know shit. And everybody's out there. That's what's up, Bumani, a whole gym full of them up on all weekend out there in cosplay. It's a great way to describe it.

Yeah, I mean, because people want to be coaches. Like, that's the other part of it too is the coach gets this level of respect in this society. And people want to be that. And it's one of those jobs where it's kind of like the job that we do now. Why can't I do that? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? There's no class you got to take.

There's no degree you've got to have. There's no certification that you've got to. that you got to get. There's no tests you got to pass. Everybody thinks they can do this job. And they think the exact, but we are all in business because everybody thinks they can be a coach.

Yeah. Get on Twitter during any game, and you're going to find all the coaches, especially now that they can get like all 22 filled and stuff like that. I got some motherfucker I ain't never heard of before talking to me about an action in basketball. Look, man, I know who can do this.

I know who can and who cannot and who, and who work well together. I'm not about to be out here pretending to you. Like, I'm like, now he's going to go here. Now he's going to make, no, no, no, no, no. I don't consume it on this level. But you all know the people I'm talking about. And now they're like, yeah, I can be a coach.

I could be a leader of men. You know, I want to help the kids. No, that's it. That's facts. Just bringing it back to Dion, how do you're going to do in Colorado, Bo? How do you think that's going to work out? I have no idea.

That's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah, I don't think that any. can say confidently that they really know how this is going to go. Now, he's putting together staff. I just saw that he hired Tim Brewster, long-time assistant in college football, but also a long-time, really good recruiter. He just got Nick Savan's safety's coach and associate defensive coordinator. He's now going to be the defensive coordinator at Colorado.

Problem is if you talk to people around Alabama, they say one of the problems that they're having right now is that the coaching staff isn't as good as it used to be. So take that for what is work. He's going to get some players in there. I think he made a terrible mistake by introducing his son as the quarterback because I don't know why any other quarterback would stay in school there because as you say, it's not a rotational position. You just told me I'm not going to play.

I don't even know why I'm going to get out here and try. It is your son. I'm not going to do that. But I think he's going to be able to infuse talent fast. Right. And I think that, I mean, they ain't going to be no one in 11 next year. The question for me about how well he does at that job is, there probably will be a two or three game losing streak here or there.

And the ability to succeed at a job like Colorado is not so much about how much you win as much as how you handle early losing. So you can get to the place where you get better. And Dionne Sanders ain't had to answer one hard question yet, right? You out there beating the brakes off everybody at Jackson. You ain't had to deal with what the questions are going to be here if you mess around and lose. in the HBC when you watch it's so flattering towards

prime, right? It's so flattering towards and I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at it at all but I'm saying it's going to be different. They had to be though because he wouldn't give the time of day to local media. Like that's one of the other problems that I had with the time that he had there is that local, he was always talking to national guys because his plan

was to get to somewhere else, right? So he didn't really do that local stuff here. When it's going bad, they're going to have questions. And while he is prime time, I don't know if you guys know this, but he's still black, dog. We know how it goes when black people struggle. We know how this runs.

So they're going to be hard times, and I'm curious to see how he handles him. Because if he's willing to go stand in front and just be like, hey, this is all me, da-da, all of this when the times are hard, he'll be okay. Nothing of his track record indicates that that is what he will do. Yeah, that's going to be interesting. I would just double down on that. I think, first of all, he's going to recruit his ass off. Like kids are going to want to go there.

have multiple kids that I'm familiar with on my son's team down here that are literal five-star kids that have said that Prime reached out to them. And you could see in their eyes when they talk about it that there's some level of excitement. What degree? I don't know. But it's an exciting thing for Prime to call you and what you now is not, you know, now it's a power five. So it's even more probably exciting for some of them. He will get kids. I do believe that he can coach. I believe that he's a good coach. But that shit doesn't turn over overnight. it just doesn't happen. Like, you don't take a program

that's been struggling like that and turn it over overnight. So there will be hard times. And that is the question and Bormani hit it on the head. Like, I do think the approach to the media has to be a little bit more, I want to put this correctly.

I definitely tweaked. Savvy isn't a good word because I believe him to be really savvy, but it has to be tweaked because it's going to have to, it's a different level. You know what I'm saying? It's a different level of spotlight.

It's a different audience. And those jobs turn, over a lot quicker. So if you're getting it wrong at the podium while you're going through your growing pains as a coach, because there will be growing pains for the program, like every program, like Mario Cristobol and them are going through that right now at University of Miami. Like they're recruiting their ass off.

He's got a monster staff. But you got to get rid of some of the stuff that doesn't work for you. You got to bring in your stuff that you think works. And a lot of times you got to get it up to speed. And all of that has to be, like you have to be doing the right things with the media, with the boosters, with the university, with the parents, all that has to be handled very well to get the grace to get to the point where you're able to produce. And that's going to be the question for me. I'm going to be interested to watch that.

Excited to have him, no boy. The only thing for me, though, about this, Jackson State's one of the best jobs in the swag. Colorado is one of the worst jobs in the PAC 12. And I don't know what he has to sell other than himself at Colorado. That's not his fault, right? But it's all going to hinge on him. Like at Jackson State, I know what you had to sell. We're going to play one of the top five stadiums in this division and I'm going to sell you to Black College

Experience. What are you selling in Colorado that they can't get anywhere else? And that's where this is going to get, that's where this is going to get interesting. And, hey, Dion going to get a lot of kids. Is he going in there in L.A. And beating, like, here's what Dion is going to do in terms of recruiting.

They will have a secondary. Yeah. Like with Travis Hunter, where Jackson State. People like, I can't believe he did that. Dion Sanders said, you want to come play corner? I don't have a call that I need to take. And, like, you know, no, that's not going to happen.

They're going to have DBs. That is the one thing that I do know is that he will get that level of talent. What we don't know was are we dealing with a master strategist here? They didn't ask him a single question at that press conference in Colorado about scheme. And I have watched dozens of those press conferences over the years. I've never seen one where a coach didn't even come out with

the cliches. We're going to be aggressive. We're going to be multiple. He ain't have to do none of that. We'll see. We'll see what happens, man. Before we get you out of here, we got, it's Thursday. So we got a little segment we like to call it a real one of the week where we point out a person, entity organization that won a week. I'll start off. We'll go with Raj and in with Bo. I'm going to start off with Brittany Griner. Self-explanatory. I know that she went through a lot during her time in Russia and prison. And it's pretty self-explanatory. And she's out So I'm going to go with Brittany Griner. Who you got, Roger?

Man, that's a tough one, man. All right, yeah, I'm going to go with Coach Mike Smith at American Heritage Football. Wow, okay. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm going to go with them because a lot of people don't know this, but Mike's the coach. Obviously, my son plays there.

But Mike and I were cool even before my son was on that varsity roster. He was a head strength and conditioning coach there. And they had two great head coaches. Mike Rump, who's now at University of Miami. He was a pro corner. and then Patrick Sturtain was a pro corner and is now with the Dolphins prior to Mike and Pat Sertane left last year

and they were trying to fill this job and you know Mike and I had conversations about the job and he wanted the job and finally he landed the job and everybody's speculation was you know I guess warranted like whether or not he could handle the job and he was just announced

you know coach of the year down here for 2M which is the division they're in they're playing for a state championship next weekend his running back Mark Fletcher was player of the year offensive his linebacker, David Vidalo, his player of the year for a defensive player. And all he's done is coach his ass off.

And I know he's got a great relationship with those kids. So I'm going to give him a shout out. Real one of the week. Mike Smith. There you go. Bo, who's your real one of the week? Me. Damn.

I've been real as hell that week, dog. You know what I'm saying? Every day I did you look up and you'd be like, yo, my authenticity is off the charts. I mean, rolling. But I honestly only said me as an excuse to say, we are now back in the office of Game Theory. And season two starts January 20th of Game Theory.

And if you heard me talk about Dion, I do suggest you go to YouTube, look up Game Theory, HBCU, and you'll find a video, I mean, an essay that we did last season about HBCU Sports, and it was a bit focused on Dion and where we were going there. But we're back in the office on that, and I just love doing this show so much

that I want to make sure that everybody understands. fans that like I got season two of the dream and it still feels dream you know what I'm saying? That's fire. What can we expect for season two man? What? What you got up your sleeve? Although it's going to be heat.

I can't tell you everything, right? But the things you like we're making sure to bring back and the things that need to be better, we're working on but we already got about, we got 10 episodes this season, we already got six or seven of the deep essays taking care of. One thing I will tell you is we're working on, we'll be

going to do for the most ironic sporting event of all time. All-Star Weekend, Salt Lake City. Let's get it. Let's get it. Get ready for that. By the way, Salt Lake City, a place I've had people make that look about having some fun in. No, Salt Lake City, we're proponents of Salt Lake City. We've talked about how great Salt Lake City is.

He played with the jazz, so he's a very big proponent of Salt Lake City. I'll take your word for it. Don't get me wrong. I was just passing on the news because I don't know. it's going to be me. Well, Boatman, thank you for coming on, dog.

It's been a pleasure. We'll come back anytime, man, in front of the show. Thanks, bro. Hey, man. Always appreciate you guys. That y'all take it easy.

All right, man. We'll see you guys on Monday. Talk soon. Out.