The Ringer NBA Show - Bomani Jones on NBA Activism, Kevin Durant’s Legacy, and More | Real Ones

Episode Date: February 18, 2021

ESPN’s Bomani Jones joins Logan and Raja this Thursday to talk about the NBA’s COVID response, the national anthem fiasco of late, what the NBA can do moving forward to support players, and whether players need to take more responsibility (0:45). Then they get into the on-court chemistry of the Brooklyn Nets (3:00) and Kevin Durant’s legacy (44:00) before anointing their Real Ones of the Week (56:45). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Bomani Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's good, Real Ones? Logan Murdoch here with Raja Bell. Raja, we had a really, really fun guest, bro. Really dope guests. He did, and he was, it was re-recked, he was great. Beaumani Jones of ESPN, The Right Times host. He was great. It was amazing. I don't even know what else to say.

I also tap in. It was great. What's popping? Real Ones, Logan Murdoch here with Raja Bell. Raja, we have a special guest on the pod. I'm really excited for this one. We have writer. commentator, podcaster, just overall great mind.

But Monty Jones, what's up, bro? Oh, man. I appreciate it, man. What's that, man? Good, man. We're just hanging out, man. Just chilling, bro. I just wanted to get you on, man, because you know you have a breath of knowledge on a lot of things.

And, man, let's get right to the shits, bro. I wanted to talk to you about, first off, the NBA so far, you know, our NBA pod, the NBA so far has talked about, you know, being good with COVID. and being really at the forefront of how they, as a sports league, of managing the virus. And it seems like now it's just been a weird, it's been a weird change of pace now when, you know, they were the standard.

But now it seems like they're making different moves in terms of letting fans in and also from a race perspective in, you know, the kneeling and things like that. How do you feel the NBA has evolved over the last few months in terms of how they're putting their money? messaging out. How have you seen their message kind of evolve in terms of both COVID and also how they're dealing with, you know, how they're dealing with race and how they're, you know, supporting or not supporting? I think everything they're doing is exactly the same. Like,

whether you think is good or bad, when you really think about it, nothing has actually changed. So with COVID, I think that a lot of us need to be honest about the fact that is really easy to pop shit when you get to make your money from the crib, right? Like, I have not had to leave my house to work, and I have not missed a dime. And I think that when you live in that situation, it becomes very easy for you to talk about all the precautions that everybody else should take in the name of COVID. But you can't do that with the NBA. Like, they looked great when they did the bubble, and the bubble was like a public health victory, right? Like, it was amazing that they could even and pull that off. But they can't do that again. The players aren't interested in doing that

again. They don't want to live life under those circumstances. Nobody that was in there. Like when people were in there, I would ask. So, do you think you could do it up? And before I can say, Gien, they was like, no, we're not going to do it, right? So what you're going to have is people traveling, right? Now, the thing about people coming into the arenas, the reality is a whole lot of these franchises can't really make money without people coming in the arena because the NBA has bad real estate. The NBA is in a whole lot of cities that are honestly not big enough to, like, truly support a major league sports franchise. I would try to avoid naming them individually because people take this to be very, very, like, you know, personal. But it's a whole lot

of cities. All y'all got as a basketball team, right? And if all y'all got as a basketball team, that mean y'all ain't got a lot of people, which means that your television deal can not generate but so much revenue for you, in which case, you need people in there paying $5 for a soda, paying $9 for a beer and all of this stuff, like to get the money that we're talking about here. And so I get, yeah, some places are going to let fans in. I don't think letting fans in is like the worst idea if you're taking actual steps or precautions. I don't recall hearing about anything so far about any outbreak starting because of attendance at an American sporting event since they've come back in lower numbers.

Like, I just haven't seen it. So I think it's easy on COVID to just come off the top and just be like anything that involves any measure of risk you absolutely should not do. But there's a whole economy that surrounds this stuff and they're going to have to do the stuff. Like the thing that's going on with the All-Star game, to me, this is my read from way over here. The problem is that the NBA needs to look out for Turner here because Turner is the big loser if you don't have the All-Star game and everything that surrounds it. Right. That's a big event for them. They're not going to wind up getting that, right? Also, I think that there's a larger monetary component, like, beyond.

just return or just like, yo, we got to go out here and we got to get this money. The biggest reason you got to get this money is this salary cap is about to get obliterated by the revenue losses that we have had with COVID.

All right. Whose money is that going to affect? It's going to affect the dudes at about five or six through eight or nine on the bench. That's their money. Guys who aren't minimum dudes, right? But also are not stars.

who are going to have to go play this All-Star game to get this money for those dudes? LeBron James, Yonis, like all these dudes that will always get their money no matter what, right? Like, so it's an incongruing situation where they got to go out there and take this one for the team when they thought they was going to be able to get the week off. Like, to me, the issue is not really, as it goes there with the players. They can say this about COVID safety and all this. No, it's not them. Those just don't want to go down there.

And I don't blame them for not wanting to go down there. But I don't think that the NBA has kicked it with COVID in a way that has really endangered people's safety beyond the fact that everybody involved wants to get some of this money. And so they're going to have to go out here and beat the street and get this money. It's uncomfortable. But it's what's going on. Now with race and the anthem, I think that what Mark Cuban did was interesting. I obviously believe he has a point. I do think that there's a fair question to ask about whether or not you should play the national anthem before games.

All of those things are true. But once this got out, I don't know what y'all thought Adam Silver was going to do. He ain't say, because this is the thing, Roger, you can vouch on this, right? The rule is that if you are on the court, you have to stand for the national anthem. You can avoid this by staying in the back during the national anthem. Right. You are not required to stand for the national anthem. You're required to stand for the national anthem if you're on the floor.

That's an unnecessary fight for the lead. to be like, we are going to challenge the notion of the national anthem, man, they're having a hard enough time getting them to watch your black asses play basketball as it is. And you think that we're about to come out here and start this fight when you always have the option of not doing this if you so decide. So I don't think that the NBA has backtracked at all about race in that way. I think they looked at the bubble and the messaging and the imaging and the imaging that they put forth in the bubble.

and I think that they realized that it may have been more than was optimal, right? Like, it might, because after a while, you tuned out the names on those jerseys. After a while, you tuned out Black Lives Matter on the floor, right? You know, and it's also worth noting all that stuff was popular the week they made the decision to do it. It was not popular, like, two months after. Like, I don't know if you watched this in college basketball, like, Duke and Carolina have, like, the equality and all that stuff on their jerseys. And you look up at it now, and it's almost like, wow, why are you?

you guys doing that? Like last June and July feels so far away now and the NBA decided to move forward doing this in a different way. But they got to figure out how to present this to the people and I think they decided that this is probably a more effective way for them to present it to the people. So like

that to me, when I look at all of these things, I think the NBA was a model on COVID when they had the option of trying the most ambition strategy that anybody has ever tried. And they were very ambitious with the way they handled the messaging and the imaging in the bubble.

But I think that we're going to look back on it and realize that that captured a very particular moment in time and that moment is not right now. And a different moment calls for a different approach. Bomani, I'm 100% with you. Logan doesn't like how Adam Silver seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth with this. But at the end of the day...

Well, give me an example of what you think is him talking out of both sides of his mouth. Because you're probably right. I just think you might be being unrealistic. No, no, no, no. I think the biggest beef that I have, right, is like you say one side, hey, man, you know, we're about protecting the players or about protecting players from COVID and also we're about Black Lives Matter. But you see these actions otherwise. Like you say your league is about protection from COVID, but then you have the thing with LeBron James, right, where you have someone yelling at him from court side with the mask off, right?

Like, that's not helping a player with everything we know about social distancing, with every. we know about, you know, this virus, that's not optimal, right? So I would just, I just want him to just be a bit more honest, right? And same with the All-Star game, right? Everybody knew that there was going to be a shortfall in bread for the league, right, throughout this whole time. You could have just straight said to us, hey, we're going to have an All-Star game. This is what we're going to do.

This is why we need to do it. And I think that he does, I think my beef with Adam Silver is that he just doesn't say, it. I think that he's just, there's been an approach for him. Transparency. You're talking about transparency. I'm not tripping off of like all that stuff because I'm not expecting an organization to just be about black lives and like that. I'm just not expecting that from my, from any organization to just be about this. But just don't, don't lie to me or don't talk out the side of your mouth is my

biggest thing. Just tell me the whole thing. This is fine. I'm fine with the truth. Yeah, but I feel like that lady Wileyland and Atlanta with a mask down, she wasn't supposed to do that, right? Like it wasn't like they, it wasn't like they was Like, come in and leave your mask at home. But you're not, but you're not like you're not even saving them from that, right? Like they're still, you're giving them the chance to do that, right? Like, they're court side people. They're people court side and you're giving them the chance to do that.

That's what I'm saying. You're not really saving them. I feel you, but you got to answer to the band that's selling them court-sized seats. Like, like, this is the uncomfortable reality that, like, I remember when the COVID first hit and we were talking about, you know, the big reason we were staying inside and social distancing was to decrease the load on hospitals, right? Because heart attacks didn't stop because it was COVID. You know what I'm saying?

Strokes didn't stop because it was COVID. And capitalism sure as hell didn't stop because it was COVID. These jokers ain't doing this strictly because they crave money. They also doing this because they got bills, right? Everybody got somebody they owe that money to and not a single person that, not a single person who is in the category of someone else owing them money is trying to hear about no COVID. I don't know if I don't know if anybody owes you money, but some people have owed me money. And I get where that COVID is coming from, but that ain't answered everything.

They're trying to get out here and get this money, man. I would just want them to, my thing is that, go ahead, Roger, when I get, I just want them to just want them to say that. I just want them to say it, Beau. He wants them to say it. I'm with you, Beaumani. Like, look, Bill's got to be paid. The lights have to stay on. Like, at the end of the day, you're going to do what you have to fulfill those obligations to whether it be a TV partner or what have you to get them bills paid. So I'm not even tripping off of it. I want to add. you because you guys touched on like you know you had mentioned the the movement in the bubble and kind of capturing um the essence of a time that the country was in the world was in

it for that matter um but there were promises made and Logan and I talked about this on a pot at the time like how does this conversation and the initiative transcend the bubble right like how do how do we keep the conversation going if that's what you know is on the forefront of players minds and owners understand that they have to be a part of it so I guess my question is like what do they do now? Because, you know, you mentioned, like, we've, we've kind of forgot about that, right? We don't see the backs of the jerseys and the pre-approved slogans from the NBA. Like, what can the league do to continue to support, you know, it's players?

Man, first thing I would do is call the WNBA players and be like, teach us your ways, right? Like, I am not one of those people that's going to come out here and pretend to you let I watch more WNBA basketball than I actually do, right? Like I think that that became a kind of a cottage industry on the internet a bit. I just have not. I watched a lot of it during the wubble and was shocked at how good the basketball was. Like the level of basketball, women's basketball from when I watched more of it, like, you know, 20 years ago, it was so much better.

And I was, but I was always just so impressed. Everything they did and every time somebody in the WNBA decided to make a statement, it was right on the money. At every single turn, it was right on the money. and those women did one of the most gangster things we've ever seen, running a re-election campaign against the owner of your own team. That's so gangster. That's real one.

That's real one shit. Right, right. It's about it. I was like, yo, what you're going to do about it? And what they did in large part was helped to get that woman out of there, right? Like, that happened. And so when I think about a way that the players could advance this, and I don't blame them if they don't.

I want to be clear, because it's also worth noting. is a much different money game in the NBA versus the WNBA, right? For a lot of them, that's their second job, okay? But you got Tom Gores up there, the owner of the business that owns a private prison. It's 15 dudes up there on that team who could do something about that or say something about that if they wanted to. They could wear T-shirts about that in the same way that the WNBA players did if they so wanted. But they're not about to do that.

Again, I'm not judging them for the fact that they're not about to do that. But like, let's point this out. that's a difference that is in play. I think the players are in a position where if they wanted to, they could advance this more, and it stops being about the league and what can you help us do? Because the league is always going to be conflicted, right? Like, the difference between the NFL and the NBA is,

if an owner in the NFL does something racist, everybody's just kind of like, yeah, kind of would have expected it. I'm not saying it's fair, but that's the way that people look at it. Like, the perception that people have of NFL owners is one thing. People don't even really have a perception of NBA owners, but they do have a perception of the NBA. And they look at the NBA and the white people who are around it as being kind of more liberal in their sensibilities and everything else. But at the end of the day, man, these cats are billionaires. The list of liberal billionaires who aren't like in the movie game is tiny, right?

the ethos that makes you want to be a billionaire, not simply rich, but a billionaire, is counter to the ethos that's typically on the side of these social issues and things that we are talking about. So the players probably have Adam Silver on their side, but Adam Silver got to go sell this to the cast that he actually works for.

And they're not so much on board with that. Like, that's why I don't bring the hammer to silver on this, because silver is not the person that's in charge. Yeah. And I think it's a catch-22, though, because on one side, yeah, you want to, you know, the Black Lives Matter thing and the putting the thing on the jerseys, that was in large part how you got the players to come back. But that's a slippery slope for organizations that have a lot of mouths to feed, Bo. Like, you know, when you talk about, yeah, we got Black Lives Matter, yes, all that stuff. But we get to choose what you put on your jerseys, right?

You know what I mean? Let me tell you this, though. If you talk to people from the league, they will tell you they didn't throw out a single slogan. that the players proposed. Huh? The players were the ones who did not go farther in a large part because they got big giant money behind them that they answered to. Like the league,

the league was in a position on that one. They're like, yo, I imagine somebody in the league office was like, yeah, we ain't even have to tell them. You know what I'm saying? Like, they came in there with all the back doors, all the stuff that the white boys could choose, all of it. They had that set up right there by themselves. themselves. Gordon Hamer with his education reform. We got education. Education. That's my

favorite. That's my favorite. Economic is my favorite. Group economics is my favorite. Well, see, I thought I thought group economics was actually a bit more profound because that's a borderline separatist idea, right? But like the education reform and all that stuff, they basically put a Shirley Temple or a virgin daughery on the menu so you could look like you was drinking just like the grownups. Yeah. Like, no, I want to be about education. education reformed. Did anybody ask Gordon Hayward how he wanted education reformed? Because I got news for you.

We can reform education in a lot of ways. Like if Gordon Hayward had got up there and be like, yo, we need textbooks like the ones they got down there in Texas. That's education reform. Yeah. I mean, you can make a great argument that education is being reformed over the last few years anyway. It's not in the way that, you know, some demographics wanted to be.

Yeah, but apparently that was the players play on that. That's how they decided to go about it. Like, one thing also, how many gangsters we really got on this if we being perfectly honest? Not as many as they pretend to have, nor pretend to be, no. Yeah, no, no. Like, so, you know, Kyrie is his own fascinating case all over the place. But Kyrie's out here doing stuff, like, particularly with his money. You know, like, I had a few people hit me up and just be like, yo, just tell me various stories about it.

Now, I got questions about his knowledge level about all of these things, but I don't have questions about his concern. and what he's willing to do. But what he's willing to do, in large part, I said this about LeBron before, is rich people stuff. Like, one thing about the players is they're rich. Once you get rich and pass a certain age, your activism largely comes via your bread, right?

The people that you can get into rooms with. Like, that's how it goes. Like, I didn't like the way LeBron positioned himself in the bubble. I felt like he was trying to put himself as the front of a revolution, but 35-year-olds don't front revolutions. Not in their infant. not in the, like, I don't know if you saw Judas in the Black Missy. 17, 18 year olds.

Yeah. 17 and 18 year olds round those. But there were, and there was some pushback from some of the younger cats in the bubble from all accounts too. Yeah. Because that's, but that's how it always goes. You look at Martin Luther King or anything of that. That's how it always goes.

King led the bus boycott when he was, what, 27? Mm-hmm. Right? What he was doing in Chicago. Now, granted, he's still boots on the ground, but what he's doing in Chicago was a different animal by the time he's in his late 30s and going about this. But that fire on the street, I think about Jews and the Black Messiah,

all those dudes are in their early 20s when that goes on, right? But the fire, the Jalen Browns at a game are the ones that were going to be like the leaders in that way. The guys in their 30s and later are typically best served as like supplementary folks. But again, the thing is everybody involved in this is rich and answers to some level of money. So they're all looking for a measured compromise and figuring out what they can do. Again, I don't judge them for this, right? because I think a lot of people have a tendency to hear somebody say something like this and think I'm saying, y'all are not doing enough.

No, but if we're going to really break down where everybody's coming from in this and what is possible for them, like, LeBron about there, I think LeBron is about the cause in a lot of ways, right? But don't ever forget, man, Tamir Rice happened in this city, and he ain't say a damn thing about it. Now, I don't judge him for not saying anything about it because by the time, like, at the time in his journey that he was there, just coming off of being in Miami, everything kind of being dicey and tenuous in Cleveland, it would have made it a more polarizing issue of LeBron and said something rather than raising awareness in that way, right? But it also didn't serve him personally

to come to step out on that at that time. You know, everybody's picking and choosing their spots based upon their larger interests. And I think that we got to be careful in what we say about the players and what we assume about the players because ain't everybody trying to burn this down and we're going to be disappointed by a lot of them

because they don't all want to burn it down. I want to ask a question real quick. It's a little bit of a transition, Logan. You can go back if you want. But you kind of talked about LeBron. I think it's interesting, like, navigating, you know, your responsibilities. The companies like Nike and so on and so forth with your responsibility to a community. And one person that comes to mind who, by most accounts, didn't do a great job of that when he was in his prime was MJ, right?

Who seems to have found more of a voice, you know, lately. I think he put up, you're from North Carolina, he put up, you know, he's building two, right? What's it, two hospitals or two centers in Wilmington? Like, what do you think about MJ in that regard? So I've got like levels on how I think about Mike with this. Because Mike is still both sides in this. You know, like remember when Mike gave that money to the NWACP, the legal defense.

And then he also gave money to the police, right? Mike, but Mike's inclination is to figure out how to do these things without offending people. and it is very difficult to combat racism without offending people. So like hospitals are things that people love to give to, right? So I talk about this all the time when it comes to like when it's time to do something for charity, cancer. Everybody's raising money for cancer and raising cancer awareness. I'm going to be honest with you. I ain't met the person yet that wasn't aware of cancer.

I don't know who that is. I think that I don't know how much more aware we can possibly be of cancer, right? But cancer is the thing that reaches everyone and it is like 100% apolitical. Nobody can get offended by the idea that you're raising money for cancer. Nobody can say, what about me or anything? So that's why you will see more people doing things for cancer. Cancer is never, you think about that as like charities and causes go, there's like an in and out of style thing that happens. Cancer ain't never gone out of style because you can't lose by raising money for cancer. You can't lose by raising money for cancer. It's the same thing with hospitals. You know, obviously like the same

sort of extension, but it's the same thing when you're doing things like building hospitals in places, is that it is presented as an apolitical action. Now, let's say that it is a hospital in a black community, which winds up being very helpful to black people, you know, for obvious reasons, right? You could spend that as being political, but then that becomes cool because who, Mike did it now, we ain't got to do it. And it becomes, a win in that regard. So I think that he wants to be helpful, but not at the expense of what is and has always been the single most important thing to Michael Jordan, and that is his public image. Like, I don't know if you read the Jordan rules, but he talks about when James Worthy got

busted for picking out that prostitute in Houston. And he was really, really worried about, you know, he went to college Worthy. All they was really, really worried about Worthy. But the basis of his concern was his image. He was just like, once you lose your image and the love of the public, you can't get it back. And that stuck with me after I read it the last time that for Mike, Mike is not trying to lose the public no matter what. He's not because he's not. I think people, like people try to play Mike as though he's like some kind of Uncle Tom.

No, man. Like, do you go look at that team he got there? He got more black people in places that matter than just about anybody else. And he is a black man from Wilmington, North Carolina. Mike does not believe that the white man's ice is colder. He is not that dude. He never will be that dude. Yeah.

I think that, but I think also like with the more, you know, Mike has taken more stances, I feel like, but it's more so the sign of the times, right? Where it's more okay to do that. Back in his day,

it wasn't, it wasn't, not to say it wasn't okay, but there was more persecution if you spoke out in the 80s and the 90s, right? Would you say that, or would you say that has something to do with it that it's not safer to speak out, but it might be more easier if he does that now.

I think you still need, because here's the problem. I think you're right, right? Like, if I had to say that was a hypothesis, that is correct. If I was going to test the hypothesis, we don't, like, LeBron is the closest thing that we have to a counterfactual, which is a star of that magnitude who has things to say. But LeBron ain't really putting forth no revolutionary ideas, you know? So I do think it's a sign of the times, but I think it's a sign of the times in a broader way than people want to give it credit for. Like post-1968, all over the place, man, everybody fell back.

Like, the 70s are a decade of hedonism. Like, we don't really have that many athletes that we think about as, like, being the thought leaders of the revolution within sports from the 1970s. Like, the whole world had moved away from that. In the 80s, we saw people really, really, really buy into the idea of capitalism and believe, that there was a play, that that would be perhaps the path to liberation would be more in that direction. But where I always defend Mike is, I ain't never seen one person ask nothing about Magic Johnson in the same exact time period and what he was and was not saying on behalf of black folks. Now, Magic was doing things on behalf of Black folks. I'm not saying that he wasn't. Also more

publicly, also more publicly than Mike was. Yeah, but how much more publicly, though, right? Like, I don't recall in 1992, Magic saying nothing about Rodney King. Maybe he did, but I don't remember it, you know? I meant more so his moves like getting the Starbucks in the hood, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like more public in that way. Yeah, but that's all after his career. I'm talking about while he was playing.

So like he would do stuff for like the United Negro College Fund and things like that. I'm not saying he didn't do these things. I'm just saying nobody looks at magic and asks for receipts in the way that people look at Mike and ask for receipts. I don't hear about nobody looking at Warren Moon or Walter Payton or anybody else looking for receipts. We brought it all to Mike.

Mike carries that burden for literally every big black athletic star before LeBron James. Because you struggle to name anybody who did the things that we swear we wanted Mike to do. Yeah. I think the biggest thing that Mike did,

at least public facing, was around that, I mean, you could correct me if I'm wrong, or on that Malcolm X movie when, you know, he put up the bread and stuff. And Magic was a part of that, too, had the X hats and things like that. I would say that one might be the biggest, one of the biggest things. I mean, I think Mike has improved because, because like if Mike was, it was, and even LeBron in terms of social justice, I think it would be a lot more radical during his time, if that's the case.

All I'm saying is I think that the time has made it easier for LeBron to do that. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's fair, right? Because I don't think LeBron's really doing nothing in terms of public. statements that are like actually hard, right? So like I do, I do agree with you on that. Now, here's the question. If LeBron hadn't started doing this stuff and people hadn't started writing columns and making posts about how LeBron may never get to be as good as MJ, but he better at this stuff than he is. Do we hear from Mike? I don't know. Also, if like, I also, I would say counter, like, if Trump doesn't come in the office and it's not as polarizing does Mike come back

out, right? Like, is it that much? I think, I think that's another thing to do, right? Like, it's everything political is so much heightened ever since Trump has gotten in office in my opinion. Yeah. So the, the magic world where Trump is not president, right? Mm-hmm. I, the question that I ask about that is, would 2017 look like 2021 has looked if he was not president? Like, we seem to operate on this assumption that Donald Trump had won the presidency in 2016 that these same folks that's been wilder for four years would have been like, up, majority rules, you guys got it. We're just going to fall back.

You know what I mean? Like, what we have seen would have manifested itself in a different way without Trump. But I am not convinced that we would be in that much of a different place right now. If it weren't for Trump, we would have four years of a Congress that was last last first two years, a, no, four. We had four years of Gridlock Senate, for example, right? Like, it could have been, who knows what it would have been in that time period, but what the world is outside, Trump is a reflection of it and perhaps a catalyst after being in office, but it was moving in that direction anyway. I could put it like this. I told somebody when COVID first hit,

and he made a good point about business. I'm giving you game right now. He was like, COVID is an accelerant, but everything that's happening with business would have happened anyway just at a different point. COVID's just going to make it come around faster. And I think Trump, in a lot of ways, was an accelerant for the direction of things were going in already in these streets. I just don't know if it would have been as polarizing, though, Bo. Oh, no. Oh, no. Do you think so? I think so. Because all those folks that were emboldened by Trump winning would have been infuriated by the fact that he lost. And you look, after 2016, man, people hit them streets and they kept going. And the opposition to Trump,

that is, right? People put in a pretty strong four-year effort in opposition of Donald Trump. We saw people put in an eight-year effort in opposition of Barack Obama. So what would them folks have done if they have four years as the opposition?

I don't know. Fair point. Fair point. I want to go back. I want to go back a little bit because he talked about Kyrie. And Kyrie's an interest in one because it sounded like you you may have maybe more insight than I do into who he is as a person or at least an opinion on it.

Like I spent a year with Kyrie and got to know him a little bit, like sitting on planes, talking to him. Always found him to be a really interesting cat, like not just a basketball player, you know, had some worldly interest. But oftentimes would come off, and I said it to Logan before, like he was smarter than you. Like that was just kind of his stick and the way he came about it. So I'm just interested to hear like who you think Kyrie is. Maybe you know him better than I do. Yeah, I don't know him personally, right? I've talked, like, Kyrie's one of these people that you talk to different people who

know him from different places in worlds and the impression that you receive on the back end is so different, depending on who you're talking to. So you talk to people who are around him with the Celtics, especially at the end, and they can't find a single good thing to say about him, right? I had talked to somebody who had had a conversation with him about, some of the things that he was trying to do with regards to this justice movement and some of the moves that he was trying to make. And he told me a couple of them. And I found myself impressed by what it was that, and these aren't like plans to change the world, right? These are just

like little things along the way. And I found myself impressed by like who the people were that he wanted to talk to and that he wanted to get insight from. You know, like I think he's one of these guys. And this is something about NBA players in particular that people don't talk enough about is they are really good at leveraging the access that being an NBA player gets you and the ability to be a phone call maybe too away from somebody who knows what they're talking about in these things. And he's a guy that I think has done that. Now, from this distance that I have and from the public statements that he has made, college is a little underrated. Like, people, I don't, you can read whatever yourself and you can watch all the YouTube,

videos yourself, but you need to be put in a situation where the things that you think and believe are tested with some form of rigor, are challenged by people to help you rethink what your original idea is and go farther into it. And then that's when you really get to like something good, right? And he strikes me as a dude that watch a lot of YouTube videos. You know, like that just, that seems to be it. Like, I think he means well. I don't know if he has all the tools to put some of his ideas on the road, but it also sounds like he thinks that the rest of us just ain't up on game. Like, whatever it is that he thinks is because our third eyes is closed and we're not able to see what the real truth is. And that shit

is annoying. Like, there is nothing that will keep people away from you more. You got to present what you're doing in a way where people appreciate the knowledge that you are sharing with them. And they are like, man, I'm so glad that I had access to this person who imparted this knowledge to me. And And that's how you, like, endear yourself to those people. Kyrie, whenever he does this always seems to come across, like he thinks that the rest of us are stupid. And I'm going to be honest with you. I ain't really got that much to say if he thinks the rest of y'all is stupid.

That ain't for me to judge. But if Kyrie think he's smarter than me, I need to get out here and say, I can who better than him? No, man. No, don't talk to us like that. Do you think his message would become across better if he was more inclusive with his message, Bo? Like if he was like, if he didn't come off, it's like, and there's something like the flat

earth and things like that. That's not what I'm talking about. That's the biggest hold up to everything that he will ever say in his life is that he really tried to sit up in front of us and tell us that the world was flat. And that's his fault. Like that was so stupid that I can't blame anybody who will never listen to you again. Like, Rajah, I don't know if you've been on an NBA team that it's just flat out. checked out on a coach, but we know this happens at the NBA, right?

With a moment where it's just like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to say, I didn't want to presume, right? I didn't want to presume, but like I know this one coach, this is a few years ago, it was the first week of practice, and he was a college coach going in and made a call of five seconds on the dribbler, lost the team before they even played a game. Because they're like, what does he know? if he doesn't know that we don't have five seconds on the dribbler in his league. Was that in Ohio? Was that in Ohio?

It was not in Ohio. Oh, okay. It was not in Ohio. That sounded like something that would happen in that with that guy, but it was not him. But he did something so stupid to those players that they never listened to him again. And that was way smarter than saying that the world is flat. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Like that over there, I see how you might make that mistake. Right. Now, Rajah, a question for you in this one, right? We see what Bo was talking about in terms of how Kyrie is now. Was Kyrie like that when you were coaching him? Was it as maybe dismissive of like your views? Like my views are the best, you know what I mean? And then yours are not necessary.

No, look, well, I was in the front office. So I wasn't on a everyday type of conversation with Kyrie. These were conversations on planes or, you know, sitting on a bus. and stuff like that when I would get a chance to talk to him. So I didn't have to go back and forth with Kyrie about strategy or games or anything like that, which would be probably a little bit more adversarial. So I only got him in bits and pieces. And he didn't really come off like that to me.

He was just interesting to me because I could tell he wasn't the, you know, stereotypical NBA guy. Like he just, he was different, right? Like he was an enigma, if you will. Like just kind of, I could never really get a bead on who he was, but just watching him from afar, I've always been interested in the way he comes across as well, because it does come across.

And again, he didn't do this to me in conversations, but everything I see him do, it's like, damn, dog, you really do think you are just that much more, like, enlightened than we are, you know? It sounds like too many people told him how different he was. You know, because he does kick it different than a lot of NBA guys. Like, he was coming into Duke, and the big thing he wanted to do was taking, like, drama classes, you know, like he is a different dude than a lot of cats who are in the NBA.

And a lot of people believe too much in themselves when that sort of thing happens. And he believes that he knows more than he actually does. And bless his heart, because it don't sound like nobody can tell him nothing, let alone this. Yeah. How does that, so with that being said, with the Kyrie talk, you know, happening, how do you think that affects the Brooklyn Nets this season? What do you see with the Nets going this season where you have these personalities, like, KD and Kyrie and also James Harden, and you're putting this all together

and expecting this to work, right? What do you think? What's up? That boy had a walking stick last night. I just want to get that in there before you out. He hit a walking stick last night. Here's my question, man. It's clear your third eye ain't open, Roger.

I'm going to hit, though. I ain't going to guard anybody because I don't even know if any of the personality stuff with them is going to matter. They just going to have to figure out how to guard somebody. And what I don't have a great handle on is how well James Harden and Kevin Durant know him because they might be in a place where they're just like, oh, that's Kyrie. And then it goes from there. And especially now with that roster as thin as it is, nobody else's opinion matters. You know, like them cats at the end of the bench could be as mad as, be as mad at Kyrie as they

won't. They want to stay in that league. They're going to be out here balling, right? But if those other cats find a way to deal with them and what I don't have a great handle on from this distance is, So Kyrie said It's crazy talk around us We dismiss it And he gets mad at us for dismissing it But are his friends in a position Where they're allowed to dismiss it

Because if they're allowed to laugh off The kookier things that he does Like if he can handle that Then they good Right Honestly, honestly I don't even know If that necessarily matters, Bo Because like all it matters is on the court, bro

If you say yo Kyrie Wollen But he ball and you guys still have chemistry I don't know if that Does you think that I don't think that matters? matters it necessarily. Well, the question becomes how much this other stuff affects the chemistry. Because, like, in Boston, the chemistry was clearly affected, for example. Yeah, he was dealing with, like, that Boston team was the absolute wrong situation for him

in terms of who he is and the way he wants to play and what Brad Stevens is, Brad Stevenson's, and them want to do. Now, where I think it plays a factor, and I might have been wrong up front, Logan, because we talked about James Hardin coming over. And I didn't think it was going to be able to work with them all three sharing the ball. it's kind of working. So I got to say, like, kudos to all of them for kind of figuring out, Kyrie saying I'm going to be the two.

James Hardin is the one. Just kind of by committee from night to night figuring out who's going to be the guy. But where I think his quirkiness can get interesting, and it goes to Bumani's point about, are they going to play defense, is when Steve Nash has to get in somebody's ass and really demand and hold accountable a player for not doing the job defensively in a film session,

or Mike D'Antone or Jacques Vaughn has to step up and have a backbone about what's not getting done, does it rear its head at that point? And that's what could, I think, ultimately keep them from reaching their highest highs. Let me ask you, do you think that Nash is built for that? And this is why I ask, right, quietly. Kevin Durant has been incredible offensively this year. But he's also a dude in year 14 coming off in Achilles' chair, and he has played defense like a dude in year 14.

He's clearly been a willing defender his whole career, but especially you go look at the advanced numbers. All his offense stuff looks about like he did before. All his defense stuff has plummeted. Which makes sense. Yeah, his reason we won't would expect. James Hardin is a better defensive player than he gets credit for. He is not a great defender, but he's a fucking tank, like 6-5-2-30.

You know what I mean? And like when he wants to guard people, he can. But the only like inexplicable defensive liability that they have is Kyrie, where it just doesn't seem like he's particularly interested in engaging in those sorts of activities. Like it doesn't seem like he's incapable of playing defense, but he's never, ever been good at it. And somebody's going to have, like, if somebody's going to have to play better defense, and he is the only one that you could probably reasonably assume is going to be capable of playing better defense. So Steve Nash should do to be like, look, this is what it's got to be.

And when, when Kyrie turns around and says, oh, you going to tell me, you go tell me, you go tell me to play defense. Right. No, hey, I got, I worry about that. I do. Steve's leadership style was never a out front in your face type of style. It was more I lead by example. You know, watch how I work, watch what I put into this. And then on the court, I'm going to do what I do. But he was never really the guy in the locker room that had those conversations. You know what I mean? Like, he wasn't the one holding someone accountable for what they did or didn't do. And so, like, that's, you know, I think ultimately, like, that's the, that's the, that's the million dollar question.

Like, if Steve can do that, because I know Mike D. Antony doesn't really do that. Like, that's not Mike's leadership style. And his right-hand man is not known for his accountability on any level. Right. So that, that's the question. Can Steve end up? Look, I almost went to Brooklyn with Steve, Bumani. We got way down the lines in terms of conversations about philosophy.

and how how his philosophy was going to be pitched to the team. And so I was privy to a lot of these conversations. And the way he articulated it, you know, it made sense to me. Like, you know, rational people, guys who were bought in, like, could get this. But there's, you know, sometimes I worry, you know, Kyrene is right mind, yes. But when he went AWOL and stuff, I had to start worrying about Steve in that position and whether or not his message was going to be received the same way I thought it would be. I got to say, it's gone better so far than I thought it would.

I thought this was going to be instant implosion. I did not see how this would work. And I really give all the credit to James Harden. I did not perceive him to do that. I did not foresee him taking the step back and sacrificing the most out of this. I didn't foresee that. Well, the interesting part is he's kind of sacrificed, but not really. He sacrificed the shots, but he hasn't really sacrificed the control.

And this was a reminder that this was the role he played in Oklahoma City. When he was on the floor with Westbrook and Durant, he was the facilitator. Like that was the one thing I thought when they first did this, I thought that he had been playing that ISO ball in Houston for so long that he wouldn't be able to snap back into being this other player. But he seemed to come in, look around and realize, kind of like LeBron did. Like, I'm going to have to be the point guard. Kyrie is not, Kyrie just 6-1.

You know what I'm saying? Like, if Kyrie was not 6-1, we would not be talking about him as a point guard. Right. You know, that, man, I need to make a phone call because I need to know. Like, a lot of credit has to be given to those three. But I've always said, while Mike does not hold you accountable type of dude and I've never been around Steve as a coach, but that wasn't his style as a leader of our team. Both of those dudes, like Mike's ability to get the most out of what's put in front of him

offensively. Like, if he were a chef, you could hand him some real low-grade ingredients. And offensively, he's going to cook you up some shit. Like, you know, he's good at that. I wonder how much of that is organically those dudes figuring out or if there's some input there from all of that coaching staff in that record. That's a good question, because I would be honest with you. I feel like I could coach the dudes to 125 points a game and they got to play no defense.

Let me show you this list of plays right here. This is the list of plays. It is this empty sheet that I have in front of you. Just go out there. Like Kevin Durant came back. And I understand. why he's so frustrated that we don't call him the best. Because I just can't imagine being that good at anything in the world at seven

feet tall. And he's slim, but he's like seven feet tall, 230, 240 pounds. Like, he's not a tiny man. You can't tell me, you can't tell me, like, if I'm Kevin Durant and I've beaten and outplayed LeBron in two series, right? And I've clearly outplayed him, right? You can't tell me that I'm not the best in the league, bro. You can't tell me that.

And we did. And we did. And it made them miserable. I understand exactly where that last year. Dog, that last year in Golden State, I didn't like the way that he was kicking it. But I can't pretend like he didn't understand. He thought it was a very simple quip, pro quo. Did you see him against the clippers the first round, bro?

Did you see him the first round against Lou and Pat Bev where he's just dealing, bro? He's like, the game is so easy to him. After my favorite quote for. him ever, what are my 10 favorite quotes ever. Y'all know me. I'm Kevin Durant. It's one thing to say that. And it wasn't even arrogant.

It was like, no, I feel you. You're right. And then he went out there and ate them up. And that game where he blew out the Achilles, he went out there and he ate them up. And he thought it was very simple. I'm going to go to Golden State. I'm going to win these rings.

I'm going to beat LeBron. And y'all are going to say that I'm the best player in the world. And that would have happened except for one thing. It's Steph Curry's fault. It's all Steph Curry's fault. Which is weird because Steph was the one like, yo, you can have this stage when it was in the bay. But Steph messed it up for him before he even got there. What happened was 2016 Stephen Curry had what might be the best offensive season any player has ever had in NBA history.

It's augmented by the three-point line and everything that comes with that. But when you go look at them advanced numbers and everything else, there are not many seasons that are beating Steph Curry. And 2016 was the first time that we started to get the nerve to be like, you know. That might be the best way to leave. He might be better than LeBron, right? And we got into it, and a lot of people started to believe it. And then LeBron came back from 3-1, and I normally don't talk about one player as a whole team,

but LeBron came back from 3-1, and we ain't fixed our lips not one time to say anybody was better than LeBron. Yonis is one of the MVP in back-to-back years. and won all those games with teams with his second best player is Chris Middleton. He is maybe the best defensive player in the league. LeBron ain't played no defense since 2013. Not a damn one of us is going to say he's a better player than LeBron

because Steph messed it up. And it's crazy because it's clear when we all watch it when Kevin plays LeBron because he's into it. He's playing defense. He's talking shit. But he's clear in two finals, he's clearly outplayed him, bro. Like it's not even a thing. Like, it's not even a, if you look at it from the eye test.

Well, think about this. When Kevin Durant won the MVP in 2014, this was coming off, LeBron, winning four out of five, there was no question who was the better player in the NBA that season. It was Kevin Durant. Like, he was the best player in the NBA in a way where in a different world, like if he had a ring by then or something like that, we would have really had a who's better LeBron or Kevin Durant discussion.

But we didn't even entertain it. This dude is like, what else? in the world could I possibly do to make y'all say I'm the best player in the league? And the answer is nothing. There's literally nothing you can do, buddy. I'm trying to figure it out because I think one theory that I've heard is that his game is just so like, it's not even simple, bro, but it's just like, it's so effective that we don't even trip. I remember watching games of Kevin where it's like, oh, he has 40? Like I don't even like, I don't even, I don't even see it. And I don't know why. But he balls out against not even just LeBron. He balls out

against Kauai. He balls out against Janus when they go out one-on-one. I just, I don't get it. Look, man, we ain't so far down the line that we're going to start acting like a seven-foot tall two-guard. It's not the most incredible thing that we have ever seen. Like, all these bigs that we call it, like these unicorn-type players, not a one of them yet has Kevin Durant's perimeter game. Not a one. That's true. That's true. I do think he gets a step closer with finals appearances with different organizations, right? Like, because that's what, Kevin Durant is way more versatile offense.

Like, Kevin Durant is a, is a whole other conversation, right? LeBron does other things. They kind of outweigh some of the things Kevin Durant does. But in terms of what LeBron does to organizations is he brings finals appearances. Yep. Like, you take him out of one,

and he's going to bring you a finals appearance, right? Like, that's where Kevin Durant, I think, could close the gap as he moves, you know, to Brooklyn. It's like, if you become a finals appearance bringer to organizations, you know, I think that creeps closer, whether we get to a point where we can admit that or not, like in the next few years. But I don't think we're going to ever admit that for the Kevin's better in Bra.

But think about this, right? Because LeBron got to do this in the East and that comes with some of its qualifications, right? But from 2012 to 2019, Biddy Goodwill makes this point, 2012 to 2019, a healthy Kevin Durant made the Western Conference finals every season. And we just don't notice every season.

Yeah, yeah. I still don't, and it's funny that even like he has the moment, like I was talking to Marcus Thompson, who's a friend of both of ours, Beau, that even Kevin has the most gangster pose of all time when he hit the shot, not 2017, but 2018, when he hits the shot over LeBron and just does the stare. Like, he has all that.

I just, I don't know why. Like, I just, you made up a great point. I just don't know why he is always number two. Like, I don't get it. I don't know. Yeah, I think it also doesn't help. that he played a small part in the Warriors destroying the regular season

as a topic of national interest in the league. And this is not the Warriors' fault, but when they were going for 73 games, we cared about the regular season. They put the 73rd win on ESPN and Kobe Bryant's final game on ESPN, too. We cared a lot about that, and then they went out and lost the finals.

And so after that, when they got Durant, A, they weren't going to be a 73 win team again because that just doesn't happen. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not going to just like, we won 70 games four years in a row. Like, that's never going to happen. But I think that people then kind of tuned out

and they thought that the Warriors were too good. And I never actually bought into that idea. But they just thought that the Warriors were too good. They were top heavy. Well, they were top heavy. But the Warriors in large part, they made up the margins when they went small. And they could go small for 10 minutes a game

and I'll score you by 12 points and then be like net negative 10 the rest of the game and it didn't matter because they were just so good when they went small. But it made people stop paying attention to the regular season and that was the full moment where people like, this doesn't even matter. The Bucks almost won 70 games that year

and nobody even cared that they almost won 70 games. And I think it's just because of the disappointment in the end game that a 73-win team didn't win a championship. Yeah, no, I feel that. And it's funny because that 2017 is, I mean, I don't even know you're going to make the argument. It's better than that 2016 team.

And I don't think people really give that. I don't even think they give it enough credence that I don't think, do you think the Warriors are enjoyed enough, at least that era? I mean, I know they're revered enough, but do you think they're enjoyed enough like the 96-95 bulls, right? I think the Warriors have the problem, one, that they kind of ushered in a paradigm shift, and they did a lot of winning with basketball that we all thought that you could not win with, even though, like, especially the first championship, they had bigs, right?

Like, it wasn't like they were out there bringing out, Andrew Bogot in a Zili, and in 2016, the same way. Like, they weren't as unconventional as I think people gave them credit for being. Like, they weren't more unconventional than the sons from like 04 to 08 or somewhere in there, you know, with Sean Marion effectively being a power forward. It's the same thing as Draymond Green effectively being a powerful. What I think happened with the Warriors is something that never happens in the NBA, which is a great team coming out of nowhere.

Like the 2015 Warriors, nobody saw that coming. Like, I remember when they fired Mark Jackson, and obviously it was the right decision for them to fire Mark. Like, I didn't think it was the right basketball decision at the time, but even then they had a point. I thought it just got too toxic that they had to let them go. But that looked like a 50-win team, right? Like when people were like,

yo, we're not getting the most out of our roster. I'm like, you're not getting the most out of who. they won 50 and they seemed like they were a 50-win team and then they came back out in 167. So we didn't have the grow with them that we had with most teams, right? Like even like Oklahoma City in 2012, I wouldn't say that was out of nowhere because they went to the Western Conference finals the year before. But that's the thing.

Like we saw them climb a little bit. We saw them climb a little bit more. And then it goes. And so with all these teams, either you're making big free agent. acquisitions and I was like, boom, we pay attention to this team. The Warriors was like, what just happened here? Like, how did this? And so I feel like people didn't have the attachment in that way. And then 2016 came. And I think for older people, it felt like a gimmick, right?

Like, if you didn't grow up with a three point line, you thought that this was a gimmick. And then they added Kevin Durant and people said it was cheap. You know what I mean? But I just don't think that we got to, I don't think we got to get familiar with that team on the way up like we normally get to. So like even like the Boston team when they trade it, for Garnett and Ray Island. We didn't get familiar with that team on the way up because they started up, but we were very familiar with those players.

Yeah, okay. And we weren't really like that with Warriors. I mean, and again, Boris had missed the playoffs like damn near 20 straight years, not too long before this all got started. They sucked. You know, we went to the Warriors again and watched the other team play.

We went to go watch Roger play when he came out. Y'all, the happiest, and I'm not saying this is shade because it was really dope when it happened, but before the championship, the happiest y'all was with winning. in the first round that one time. And don't get me wrong. That was dope.

No, no, you're right. You're right. You're right. That's a fair point. What's up, Roger? You got something? What's up, man? No, that was, no.

I'm just listening. I'm enjoying that. That was a tough team, though. Who did they beat the Mavericks in the first round? They beat the Jazz. Yo. And they gave them hope that they could beat the Utah. Like, there was some hope in the Bayla.

They lost to the Jazz. That's right. They lost to the Jazz. But they were like, oh, oh, they might go to the conference finals. I'd tell you the big thing that resulted from that, though. That was a cautionary tale for all them unicorns out there. You have to be able to put your back on somebody and score from the post if you're seven feet tall. Because otherwise, Baron Davis can guard you.

That was what was so wild about that series. They just sent, like, Stephen Jackson up under his armpits. Al Harrington up under his armpits. Baron Davis, they were just all, if he ain't going to back us down, then we just go get all up in his face. and then LeBron paid the price for it in 2011. I love that team. I love that 07 Warriors team because I was probably the last Warriors team

that was really outside in Oakland. Like Stephen Jackson was around the lake. He was an Eastmont Mall. You know what I mean? Like they were just, it was just like a real like team. I love that we believe team, man. It was a great team. I was wrote something about it because that next year they made Stephen Jackson

the captain, which was just like the greatest thing of all time. But it makes sense. It really did make sense for that team. Well, because Steve's such a good dude, right? Like, Steve has his, you know, Steve has his moments and all the stuff. But, like I said, I've been watching Stephen Jackson since 1994.

So I've been fascinated by all things, Stephen Jackson ever since then. And that team, like, people always talk about it. He's the guy that shows the rookies around. Like, he's a real stand-up dude. He's also Stephen Jackson. Exactly. But he needed to be a captain of that team. And that 0-8 team was better than that 0-7 team,

and they just didn't make the playoffs. I mean, they had Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes at the same time, man. Like you're asking for a lot. And Don Nelson coaching and Baron Davis and Al Harris is out here selling weed. Yeah. And in Oakland. Like it was the perfect combination of everything to have fun for a little while. Yeah.

That was fun, man. Man, it was love to have you on both. But before we leave, we want to get to a segment that we always get to at the end of the show with our guests called Rowan of the week. And that is an entity, a person that we thought was just real for and that got to your stamp of approval. I will go first. Roger will go second. You are the master ones. You will go last.

I have, Rewan a week for me is Draymond for Andre Drummond. It is, and I know Raja is a player. Like, it is wild to have to sit out or get traded while you're playing in a game and things like that.

I know it's a part of the business, but it was cool to see somebody stick up for their brethren, you know? So, Rewan, Rewan, who is Draymond? Roger,

who is your real one? I like that. I'm going to go, PSG star Killing Mbapé for his hat trick against Leonel Messi and them. They played without Namar. They won the first leg. So killing Mbapé

for the three. He hadn't scored in that tournament in the last two years, and he had tricked him in the first leg against Leonel Messe and Cruz. So killing Mbapet, real one. Right. Who was your... Go ahead, Bob. All right, I've been trying to think of one, and I'm going to have to be a little abstract with it.

I'm going to go with Deshawn Watson on this one. Not that anything has changed in the world of Sean Watson, but I am realizing the more and more I talk to people, man, he got the league shook. He got the owners shook, shook, I tell you, shook, right? Because look, if he gets traded, everything's different. It's every. Do you know how much pressure is, all right, we're back in a segment now, Dan Bumani, because I, how much pressure there is the owner in Houston getting from other owners? Like, dog, do not do this shit. Yes. Do not do it. That was the thing I was explained to somebody today, they all like, yo man, you got to, at once,

general managers call it for the trade and owners like, no, dog, you got to hold the line. Like, we are not, no, no, no, no. We're not in that business, bro. This is not our business model. And by the way, they have got that league set up with the fines for holdouts and stuff like that, where it's pretty much impossible to hold out unless you are willing to put a four sale sign in front of your house and say, I'm just never coming back. That's the only chance that you got at making this work,

and they think he might do it. Real one. A real one. Hey, man, a real one. Ma'amani, we can find you on the right time podcast at ESPN. We can also, I'm going to give you another plug. The Evening Jones. I'm a big fan of that as well.

See you and write with the undefeated and all the great work you do at ESPN. Anywhere else we can find you that you want to plug? Where else can we find you? No, man, that's the big stuff, man. I really appreciate you guys having me on. Man, thanks. We've talked for this. It's been an honor to have you on, bro, you know, and we'll talk soon.

Friend of the show, come back anytime. Indeed, man. Y'all be easy. Yes, sir. All right, man, we will see you guys next week on Monday.