The Ringer NBA Show - Boston Stays Alive … But for How Long? Plus, a Deep Dive Into LeBron’s Retirement Plan. | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos kick off the pod by discussing Boston's extended season after winning Game 4 of the Eastern Conference finals over Miami (02:58). They talk about the Celtics’ adjustments and whether its depth can carry them forward, if Miami is on the verge of slowing down, and Joe Mazzulla’s future. After, they discuss LeBron James’s retirement comments, whether the Lakers should go for another star or invest in their youth, and hypothetical trades for James (34:46). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani, and I wanted to let you know that each and every week, I'm part of a great program called The Ringer MMA Show. I hosted alongside two absolutely brilliant minds. Their names, Chuck Mendenhall and Pizzie Carroll, and every Thursday, a new episode drops where we preview the weekend in mixed martial arts and react to all the biggest news. Plus, after every UFC pay-per-view, we give you a post-fight show. So this is what you have to do. Just follow the Ringer M-M-M-A show on your Spotify app.

So you don't miss an episode. We'll talk to you then. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me the not fucking around crew. It's Rob Mahoney, Big Waz. What's up, boys? I told you, Justin, don't let us get one.

Don't let us get one takeoff on this podcast. We're just going to keep him rolling. It's true. Now here we are potentially knocking off the church of Boston. That's what they say in the movie, right? Is it? I don't know. I actually, I went like skimming through the script of the town very furiously before because I'm like, did I remember this correctly?

I remember John Hamm yelling about a bridge. Yep. I remember the sunshine stuff at the end, but all the other stuff just is kind of coming in and out. Oh, God, the town. I mean, when's the last time anybody has thought about this movie this much, even outside of our company, which is very town forward for sure. We love the town here. but holy moly whose car are we taking guys

let's get the show on the road would you have picked a different Boston movie if you were Joe Mazzua like are you a black mass like deep cut head Are you not a fever pitch guy I feel like you're a fever bitch guy

Is that the baseball movie with Jimmy Fallon? Yeah that's the one No I've never seen that By design What have I seen? besides the departed, the town, outside of Providence doesn't count, does it?

It's just a New England movie and not a Boston movie. It's all the same was. The fighter? I can think about. Oh, the fighter. I've seen the fire. Goodwill hunting. But I'm pretty sure those are the only Boston movies ever made, those five.

Yeah, that's it. That's all it does. But the fighter was fire. All right. So after we get your top five white Americans, we'll get your top five Boston movies. Which is basically the same top. A lot of overlap, yeah.

It's true. All right. We are going to talk about the Lakers and LeBron James later in this podcast, much of the secret of our friend Wozni here. But first, we have to talk about the Celtics. Staying alive last night in Miami. Finally get a big Jason Tatum game. Finally get some timeouts from Joe Missoula.

Rob, let's start here because we're recording in the morning as opposed to right after the game as per usual. So let's be a little bit more. forward thinking. How sustainable do you think this is for Boston? Do you think that, like they, in the air quotes, found something? Or was this more of just a, you know, a one off? We got one and this is inevitability.

Look, it's a great question in any playoff series, but especially with the Celtics where often finding something is just like, did you focus for the full half? Yeah. Did you really invest in like the decision-making process of what this basketball game needs to be? I think for the most part, to be totally honest, I think mostly things just happened.

They played hard, they played well, they made shots. I would err more on that side of things than something has materially changed in this series. My only caveat to that would be, sometimes with Boston, that's enough. They are such a momentum team where when things do start going well, all of a sudden everything starts clicking into place.

And I think the uncharitable read on that is that the Celtics can kind of be a front-running group sometimes. And versus when the game is hard, they are just kind of standing around looking at each other. I think maybe the more charitable way it would be to say, like, okay, once we get a couple of these things, Al Horford knocking down some shots, bam at a bio looking a little more contained, a little more mortal.

Like some of the dynamics of the series starting to break their way, maybe that can really give them something to work with. So I would say ultimately there was not like some great strategic shift so much as they just played better. But then playing better when you're the favorite in the series to begin with, that could be a means to extend the series pretty far. Yeah, it felt like Miami All Series, honestly, has been content to let Horford shoot,

to let Grant Williams shoot, to let Derek White shoot. And they actually got burned for it for the first time all series last night. And also, I might point out, Boston is not a high turnover team, meaning they don't force a lot of turnovers. Miami turned it over on like seven straight possessions to blow that game open last night. Seems a little bit unsustainable. Maybe I'm crazy.

And the thing about the heat shooting that bears mentioning is that last year, they were the number one three-point shooting team in the NBA. Last season, this season they were 27th. In the playoffs, they're number one again. I tend to think these guys can make shots when called upon. It was that one play that just, I was just like, all right, this is, this is Boston getting eliminated. Tatum hurries back on defense, makes an incredible block from behind on Max Drews.

He gets the ball back somehow, wide open, Kansas three puts them on up nine. And I was like, oh, my God, Boston is dead. This is it. This is where they go home. This is Missoula's last game is their coach. Blah, blah, blah, blah. We start doing all of this e-may, second guessing, all of this. other crap. And then they

score 18 straight points and sort of take a stranglehold of the game. I just I don't, I don't know. These guys haven't focused on defense all series, all playoffs, if we're being honest. All season. All season. Like honest, if we're being up front about it, like they really haven't.

And so I don't see why I should think they're going to somehow shut off Miami's water for the next three games after this and get this done. I don't think this is sustainable. But it's not crazy. Isn't it like 155 and O in the NBA when a team is down three zip. I have no reason to think that this is the series that that changes.

I think the case four would be that if you were to future cast going into the series, how the Celtics would win this series, it was to look exactly like they did last night. Like, yeah, there was some sloppiness, particularly at the start of the game. I think Tatum turned it over twice in the first like 22 seconds and then they had like three turnovers by midway in the first quarter. It seemed like a lot of the same issues did start to rear their head. On the other hand, they not only shot a ton of threes, which by now, I think even the casual fan has heard the stat about if they make a certain amount of threes, I believe it's 40%.

They tend to win the game. But they were also generating those looks. I think in particular, Tatum did a good job of driving and kicking out to those guys. He had seven assists at that game. Even Brown, who was pretty awful once again from three-point land, at a certain point in the game, made a pretty conscious effort to be driving to kick. And so I think if you were to say, you were in Opnis, Joe Missoula calling timeouts, although it seemed like based on a report that Marcus Smart was leading one of the huddles,

even in Joe Missoula's chair, which I thought was notable. But I guess this is probably the way they're going to win if they are going to win, Rob. Well, yeah, they were the better team to begin with in terms of the talent on the roster. It's never been a question of like, again, do they have enough? But are they doing the right things at the right time? Do they know what buttons to press? Do they know how to navigate a series? I think we still have a lot of questions about those things.

Even just their ability to navigate some of these games and the tactics within them, I don't think we've seen anything to change our opinion of who the Celtics are and how they go about making decisions within these games. how they go about thinking about how do we attack the zone defense? How do we break down this coverage? Where should we be going at this point in time? Yes, they were able to generate some of the same shots. They've been able to generate all series.

I agree with you on Jalen Brown. I think there is some optimism in the fact that for as poorly as he's shot, it seemed like he did kind of make the conscious choice of, okay, I'm going to have to start attacking this a different way because I'm not just going to shoot my way out of whatever it is that's ailing me at this point in time. So there is optimism and things like that. But ultimately they're who they are.

Like, there's still the team that got themselves into the 30 hole to begin with. I think they can extend it. I think they can be competitive. I think they're going to put up more of a fight, certainly, than they did in game three going forward. But Waz is right. Like, the odds are what they are for a reason. And especially when you're a team like the Celtics that just in terms of tactics,

in terms of decision making, got yourself in a hole, that's a hard one to get out of. I just think there was a top-down, blasé attitude about this season and a certain level of confidence that the Boston Celtics talent would be able to carry today and they have not spent

very much time being a locked in group. Hate to be the one that brings up the Denver Nuggets here, guys. But when you watch them, just hate it. But when you watch them play, they're so connected as a group in everything that they do

on offense and on defense. Like, these guys are playing. in unison. You look at the the freaking huddles where everybody KCP who was damn near a mute in L.A. is now like a veteran vocal leader over there. Like they're just a together

group and they've treated most of the season, if not the last 15 games, as a project of these are the habits we're building in order to get to an NBA championship. Boston again from a top down where management is just like, all right, we

fired our coach. We're trying to win a championship let's throw a complete novice in there because we're so freaking good it doesn't even matter. Right? I just think that's been the attitude over there all year long and now they're down 3-1 in the conference finals to a freaking eighth seed. And yeah, no, I don't think they're going to come back

and make this thing competitive and relevant. I was going to say, I love how when teams win all of a sudden the role players just become firefighters saving cats from trees. It's just like KCP, emotional leader, That's right. That's right. That's right.

That's right. He's coming to his own as a leader, a veteran leader. He's a veteran voice. Imagine what a guy like that could have did in a place like Memphis. You know what I mean? I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Justin out here trying to pretend like Kenny hasn't done this before.

Trying to pretend like he isn't this guy. He was incredible in the playoffs in 2020. Just rude. Just rude. What of mercy. Anyway, what were you going to say, Rob? I don't even think to what Waz's point about how connected or disconnected the nuggets look relative to the Celtics. Honestly, for Boston, I think they are just the least connected of any of these four teams that were in the conference finals.

The Lakers are out of here, but they had that kind of connection. Some resiliency, yeah. Absolutely. They had a sense of, like, exactly what every player needs to be doing at any given point in time. And they're just going to toggle options and they're going to figure it out. And, like, yeah, we need to take DeAngelo Russell's minutes down at some points. But, like, in terms of who is on the floor and how it's operating. There was a clear sense of what was happening there.

That's just not always the case with Boston. And a lot of that comes down to not necessarily having all of the answers coming into the game. Some of it is, as we've talked about the timeouts, not figuring out things on the fly and kind of recalibrating over the course of it. Some of it has been as simple as like, what are your best players doing at a given point in time? And there have been points in this series, you know, this gigantic second half run from Boston excluded, where you could even see it in the first half defensively. Jason Tatum or Dalen Brown when they're not on the ball are just kind of chilling on the weak side.

Just standing there. There's no freaking movement on that team, dude. And they're in that space where they're not helping, but they're not hugging on the perimeter either. They're just kind of in no man's land, and it's unclear about what they're contributing in those moments. And there's moments like that on offense too, where you're going against the zone.

maybe it shouldn't take four games for Jason Tatum to get to the elbow. You know, I don't know why some of these things are so arduous for Boston sometimes. So I don't want to step on our boss Bill's corner here when it comes to temperament, doctor, body language, doctor. Like, just watch post-game pre-game spolstra speak. There's a confidence and a conviction and a calm about what he's. and the group are trying to accomplish and contrast that with the defensiveness and the bluster of some of the Missoula stuff where it's a guy that is completely out of his depth and over his head in over his head.

I think that permeates throughout the rest of what the team is trying to do. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that. Maybe that's too pie in the sky. Kumbaya, you know, it's not hard facts. But it feels that way watching it in the groups. And again, they've won yesterday. good for them. They didn't embarrass themselves

with the sweep, but they had not demonstrated, I'm talking about against Philadelphia, I'm talking about against Atlanta. They have not demonstrated themselves

to be a team that we should trust with making history. Come on, guys. Listen, even though Jason Tannum was flashing to the elbow in that fourth quarter,

why was he even out to begin with to start the fourth quarter? Why wasn't he powering through LeBron style in playing more minutes? Why is Mark? Why is Derek White still being switched on to Jimmy Butler when that hasn't worked before?

I think there is like just a broader philosophical question. One that's honestly pretty similar to what the heat did to the bucks and how the bucks responded to that, where it's like how much you just keep leaning into what you have done before, what has in a broad sample worked before versus change things up. And I feel like in this game, we saw Missoula almost leaning more into the pretty typical recipe. with the Celtics, still playing Al Horford, no double bigs, and just jacking threes as much as possible, relying on Derek White in those situations to come up with the blocks from behind,

which he hasn't got for most of the series, but he got one last night. And so I must wonder if it's like, if you're Missoula, Rob, are you trying to do different things? And with the understanding that, like, I don't know if you're as skilled as someone like Spowe, or are you just saying, well, we have to believe in what we do and just hoping that we could do enough of it. Well, I think they've kind of already made those changes, right? The rotation changes have already come for the most part. And I think getting Grant Williams on the floor for more minutes was a big part of it.

We're seeing, I think, some of the limitations of Malcolm Brogden in some of these games, especially when he's not. Yeah. When he's not willing to shoot quickly, he's kind of a drag on their offense right now. And so I think we could see his minutes. again, if he's not willing to do that or they're just getting a sense as a coaching step that he's not in that space where he's willing to fire,

his minutes might have to come down too. But that's the trouble when you have both Brogden and Derek White, two guys who can both clam up at certain times. And say what you will about Al Horford, but like he's at least letting it fly. You know, he hasn't made it in seven games, I think, or so leading into this one. Was shooting like 21% from three over the course of those games.

But finally hit some threes here. again, generating the same shots as you're saying the process is not so different, but you have to have people who are at least willing to project us threats. That's where guys like Brogden have been hurting a little bit. So I don't know that there's a lot more rotation-wise to change. I don't think like the answer is, oh, we're going to play so much more Rob Williams or something and go super big against this Miami team. I don't think options like that are really tenable.

It's more you have all of these versatile players on the floor. Why are we running into so many different walls when you should be able to navigate around them. That's kind of more of my issue than any rotation, Bugaboo. I think one other optimist case, if you want to make for Boston, because we're clearly big Boston optimist here was

showing up wearing green, so thank you for fitting the theme. I mean, Gabe Vinson going out late in the game with what seemed to be a churned ankle. He was joking on the bench with Jimmy as time kind of wound down there at the end of the game.

So I wonder how big of an issue that's going to be. But this is clearly a pretty thin heat team. They're basically playing at this point, what, six guys? And then you throw in like an occasional 12 minutes for love, a couple minutes for our guy, Duncan Robinson, if he is hitting threes. And then like the like five or so minutes for Cody Zeller just because you have to give Bamadabio some rest. So you have to wonder if that starts to wear it. And like these have been pretty short series for the heat, right, where they take out the bucks pretty quickly. They take out the Knicks relatively quickly.

You do wonder if Jimmy Butler is starting to feel the effects of some of these longer series where he was pretty much doubled over at half time in the previous game in game three. And so I do wonder he had 29 points in this game, but it was among the most muted 29 that I can remember. I do wonder the Celtics having so much depth, maybe that starts to bear in a longer series. I think that Celtics are the more talented team. We all thought that being the case coming in,

we thought they would defend the hell out of Miami, and essentially it would become a numbers game where the heat just couldn't find baskets outside of what Jimmy was able to provide with his individual brilliance, right? I think that's the case you tell yourself as a Celtics fan. Like, we have the better players. but you do not come out and demonstrate that talent gap on a night-to-night basis, on a quarter-to-quarter basis.

It's rare that you watch a quarter where the Celtics feel like a much better team than Miami, right? They just don't do it collectively, and they clearly don't have the schematic advantage coming from on high. And so to me, I don't think those advantages will be pressed much. I think they'll have some moments where it's like, oh, snap, these are signs. of life, but Miami has demonstrated themselves to be far superior in the effort category, in the execution and focus category, and their best guy more consistently brings it. And not only brings it for himself, brings his guys alone, he becomes the best freaking playmaker on the team when he's getting right.

And so you have to, to me, you have to believe in Jimmy's ability to sort of do that and carry them home. Yeah, I mean, depth is practical, right? it depends on your ability to put those pieces in the right spots, in the right places, to be able to maneuver your roster in a particular way, to make sure all the pieces fit in ways where they're actually complementing each other versus just kind of like, okay, we're spacing the floor, I guess, so these other guys can operate, but there's not necessarily a lot of coordination there.

The Gabe Vincent thing is tough if he can't play. But if he can play, we're kind of at a point in the series where my just general expectation is that Gabe Vincent on one ankle is probably going to outplay Marcus Smart and Derek White and Malcolm Brogden anyway. That's just kind of where we're at. So I guess we'll see what his status is going forward

and if we need to kind of dramatically readjust our expectations. But you're right. In the sense that if Vincent is hurt, all of a sudden, game five takes on a dramatically different flavor for the heat.

Then it's a game where it's like, okay, Jimmy, bam, supposing he gets they had a foul trouble, Caleb Martin, Kyle Lowry, those guys are all of a sudden due for 45 to

47 minutes. And at the intensity of the heat play with, with just again, the fact that they are overcoming a talent gap, like for everything we've said about Boston, when you're playing the way the heat are playing, you just have to work harder for your buckets in a lot of ways. You have to work harder for your stops in a lot of ways. The minutes that these guys are logging for Miami are tough minutes. So adding three or four even to some of their workloads is a significant thing. But they might have to treat it that way. They might have to treat it as like, we need to get out of this series and get Gabe Vincent on the mend if he's not available. because the longer this thing goes, the more dangerous it's going to get in that capacity.

Or, Rob, they can just give the ball to Caleb Martin because apparently nobody can stay in front of this dude. It was insane the way he was just taking guys to the rack from the freaking three-point. I'm like Jason Tatum, stop it. You can't keep Caleb Martin in front of you with your quickness and your length? Wow. Maybe that's just the answer, Rob. Caleb Martin 29 made threes

in this playoffs alone in his second season so his last season with Charlotte 31 over an entire season he's out playing Jaylen Brown I assume at some point

maybe he won't play like a second team all NBA guy but I wouldn't bet against it at this point it kind of felt it feels like at this point Caleb Martin has put the Celtics

in like the film room blender where they went in expecting to do what they did last time, which is like, we're going to let this guy shoot, we're going to put Rob Williams on him, we're going to help off him. Then he started making every three. And now he, now it's like,

oh my God, we have to overreact to every Caleb Martin potential three. And now he's just getting layups. Yeah. Just an historic playoff guy run. Can we have the Missouca Con conversation just quickly? Because I don't know if we'll ever circle back to it, given the way these games are spaced out.

How much of what we're talking about was, are you saying is a Missoula issue? Because time and time again it seems to be execution, seems to be turnover, it seems to be guys in the right place, or is it as much a roster problem where they're

constantly leaning on guys like a Tatum, a Brown, even a Brogden to a white to a certain extent, a playmake when it seems like their versatility is maybe a little bit more of an asset than being a go-to bulletproof playmaker in the clutch playmaker.

off sort of situation. I think the problem with Joe Missoula is that it's impossible to evaluate him divorced from the personnel issues, meaning if he can't coax something out of these guys that would improve their limitations as you just expressed them, Justin, in the playmaking department, then that's his fault. And you can say whatever you want about, and I'm sympathetic to the outside. idea that Tatum, Brown, Horford, Smart, all of these guys have been very far in the playoffs

and not just individually, collectively, together they have done this. And so the idea that they can't rise to the occasion of understanding, I don't know, ball movement, moving without the basketball, like rotating on defense, where Miami makes one pass and a dude is wide open,

there's no, like, They don't even have to swing, swing, and the very last guy gets to shoot it open. It's just one pass and a guy's wide open. I've seen this team make those rotations. I've seen these exact players in these same jerseys make those rotations. So there's something to be said about that with that veteran group. However, there's no reading of Joe Missoula's tenure here that says he's risen to the occasion of the moment. He has not.

He has not coached as if a championship were on the line. I don't think anybody can say that. And so if he ultimately is the downfall, and guess what? That's how all coaches operate. Do people realize that Nick Nurse won a championship in 2019? Boothin O's won one in 2021. These guys are gone. They've won chips.

These guys are gone, okay? So no, Joe Missoula is not going to get the benefit of the doubt. He's done. Monty Williams was just in the finals. He's gone. You know, like, that's just how it goes, man. Freaking the Lakers coach, okay? 2020.

Are you talking? Frank Vogel. Okay. forgot his name. Frank Vogel. Gone. He's been gone. You understand what I'm saying?

Like, this I did a Joe Missoula who has done. Dick all, since he's got to Boston, just can't get blamed for the failures of this championship level squad. I just don't buy it. You got to get gone, bro. You haven't risen to the occasion. Maybe you haven't risen to the equation either. Honestly, a lot of it for me, and I know, look,

I imagine there are a lot of fans who hear us reacting to Missoula in press conferences or sound bites or things like that probably think we're blowing some of that stuff out of proportion. To me, when you work in coaching, you work in communications. And it's how you sell your message to your team. It's how you control the narrative after losses, after wins, after everything. It's how you get everyone on the same page. Like, Justin, I know you were clown in Michael Malone for his, like,

nobody is taking us seriously tact in the Western Conference Finals. You know what he succeeded in doing is getting everyone to talk nicely about the Denver Nuggets. And I genuinely, I, look, having been in that series You just didn't get on the train I feel like I hear more about people complaining about people not talking about the nuggets And I actually hear people talking about the nuggets

But I don't think that's a lot of time talking to me and Rob That's all that. I do think there was some of that I think what he did Was put a lot of media members on the defensive In ways where they went on podcasts like ours And said We're not them

We're going to talk about the Denver Nuggets in a positive way and all the things they're doing right. Like, I honestly think how do we get here? Are you listening to the telecast? The ballots being public. Mark Jackson has done nothing but suck up to Nicoliochian for a week and a half straight. He is just praising this guy.

He's got some atoning to do, I think. Just a beautiful high five from Mark John. Oh my goodness, dude. So Rob is on to something. My larger point about Joe Missoula is if you're going to make mistakes in the management of a game and then also make mistakes in how you control how that story is told, you're probably not going to be in that job for very long. You have to be able to do one of those two things well.

And right now he's not really doing either of them very well. Which is surprising because he's watched the town so much, a movie with a very well-told story. You would think he would have picked up some pointers on the very very very well-tled story. very least the like the three-act structure because apparently that's that's how he would have done well in these playoffs. I mean, isn't this isn't the story of the town though basically about a team coming apart at the seams through like random acts of indiscretion? Like it's kind of on point for unfortunately where the Celtics are. But they get away with it at the end. Well, at least one of them does.

Well, the Celtics are not. The Celtics are not going to get away with it. They're going to lose this series to a team that they should. should have beat. One hundred percent should be beating this team. And I think handily, they should have been beating the heat in five games, six games at best when you think about the talent disparity in the collective experience. But, you know, a lot of hubris from the players, from management. And I can understand Brad Stevens is like, why shouldn't I hire a Wunderkind? I'm a fucking Wunderkind. What the hell? You know what I mean? Like, I can understand the thought process kind of

a ownership chipping out you know when people they couldn't just they couldn't just change stuff midstream Atlanta did it it was like the beginning people do it well how did that go I think the counter would be like I mean they made the plan okay cool

they were pretty competitive against this freaking Celtics team that I think I think it would have been a tough situation to considering the timing of the adobe news reveal to go outside of the organization and bring someone in. And like, I do wonder if, like, other veteran coaches like a Quinn Snyder would have been receptive to walking into a situation that at that point was like pretty dicey. You know, I, I think like to a large...

Hold on. Walking into a situation where I get five years guaranteed money to coach a championship team, other coaches might not have been interested in that. That sounds weird. That sounds like, I don't know. This is what coaches want. Talent and security. As the organization was embroiled in like a potential like litigation situation with their head. Like I think we forget like how toxic seemingly that was as a situation. And I think they made the easy decision to just hand it over to someone available. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

Yeah, I don't know about this. You're saying this was extremely toxic situation, which I agree with. So the answer was to put the league's young. is coach in charge in the situation? I don't understand that. That's not a, like, to me, that was the most cost-efficient way to handle this. It was like the day before, like, the training camps started.

It was also, like, a very odd time to, like, start bringing another voice in. I'm not saying it was, like, the perfect solution. I'm saying it's like, it wasn't a clear cut, like, oh, let's just go bring someone in and this will all be great. Like, Frank Vogel, come on in here and, and drain this. swamp and we'll win a title. Like, I think it was a much more difficult situation than I think we're lending it to be. I mean, I think back in the days, interim used to mean interim. Okay. Like, the word actually meant something and the tag actually meant something. It's like,

yeah, this dude's a placeholder. We, you know, Bill's dad called him second row, Joe. We literally just put a backbencher in charge of the championship favorite in the NBA. Yeah. We'd literally just did that. We can't make that a permanent situation. And, you know, whatever, you know, there was a lot of propaganda in the media about how ready this guy was. And, you know, and he just happens to be reped by CAA. And what did you know it? The most well-connected agency was getting all of this great press out there about how, oh, this guy, oh, he's a gamer. Oh, he's picking up stuff so quickly. Oh, he's so good. And, you know, the freaking ownership and gone down. It was bad.

And we could kill him for it now. Because it's turned out bad. I mean, if you're being honest about why he's in that job, I agree, Justin, the timing of what happened was a huge part of it. Not only because he was so close to the start of the season, but because if it had happened weeks or months earlier,

Will Hardy might be the coach of the Boston Celtics right now, right? Like something like that. Something like that could have happened instead. As to whether they should have gone that way, given the timing, I'm more on Waza's side on this. sense that the Celtics just came off a trip to the finals. This was not a team that was like, oh, we need to learn this new system.

We need to like overhaul all this stuff going into training camp. I get why they thought they could just kind of plug in continuity and rely on the same mechanisms, but I feel like another coach could have stepped in there. Like they could have spent the first 20 games of their season as their training camp and been just fine. And instead they're here, which is they've been riding on the same shit they thought they could get away with all season into the playoffs. And they finally showed up in a game for.

where, yes, we're probably not giving them enough credit for how well they played in the second half, but it probably should not take you three and a half games to show up when you're the favorite in the Eastern Conference Finals. In the conference finals, guys. I'm not arguing that Missoula was the right hire. I guess I'm arguing that any hiring wouldn't have worked

because when has there ever been a situation where a coach was hired in the midst of the season or like the day before training camp that went on to win the title, right? It's always been someone within the organization, is Pat Riley coming down. We've all watched winning times. Tithloo.

Tad Loo was already on the staff. I guess. You know, that was definitely. The associate head coach, yeah. Yeah, but it's just different. Is continuity like a terrible idea? No, it was the best. Not even the best.

It was one of the worst ideas. But they didn't pick the associate head coach, Justin, because he had the e-may stink on him. They felt like Damon Stodemeyer was an e-may guy, even though he wasn't the one that was too horny to not be fired. He just happened. Was Stadomier, the associate? I think he was like,

third in line there. And then he even left during the season, which I think is probably another part of this that no one talks about, that he just went to Georgia Tech in order to get a head job. Well, he got passed up by Brad Stevens' guy from the back of the bench. Like, that's what happens on a lot of these staffs is if you end up promoting someone like Joe Missoula, you're going to lose a lot of the assistants who thought they were waiting in line, when in fact the line can be skipped at any time for any reason based on management's, you know, management's wins based on managing a disaster situation. Yep. That's really good point. Let's go on to a situation that's totally great. Nothing is wrong. Everything is going to work out the way in which we expected. I'm talking

about the Los Angeles Lakers who are now dealing with question mark, maybe LeBron James, retiring or is he retiring or how much of this matters. Was, I'm just going to turn it over to you? Like, what's your big read on the situation? Hmm. How do I put this? In the words of 45, that's fake news. It's fake news. That is the fakesest news I've ever heard. Fake, fake news. LeBron James ain't retiring, y'all. Like, why are we even doing this? Why are we doing this? This is the fakesest news of the season. Yeah, see, this is LeBron. And a part of it I respect.

I know Justin is a middle management guy, so he might have different views of this. I respect LeBron's constant agitation of management, of being like, you guys should never be fucking comfortable. You guys should never take my greatness, my presence as a given, take it for granted. I'm going to agitate at every single turn. I respect that as like,

I'm at the mercy of Jeannie Bus and her regime. Jeannie Bus again quietly, as I must say, one of the worst owners in the NBA. Nobody talks about it because another person who's well connected in the media. She's never taking me to lunch, so I'm not afraid to say it. This is the only leverage that he has

over his bosses. And so he does it. But we can ask, Eduardo, producer, Justin, Rob, did a single one of you hear that LeBron Fuo and think, oh my God, he might not play next season? I think there is a 0% chance

he does not play another NBA game. Right? Justin, is it any higher than zero? Five percent? Is it? Five percent? You never know, man. I do know. And Vardo's on team Robin Waz. No shot, he says. There could be like a delay of the surgery Kyrie Irving style, man. Maybe like it's now LeBron taking cues from Kyrie as opposed to the other way around.

I think the only instance in which he quote unquote retires is if he takes a year off to get the foot right and then comes back to play whatever team Brani is playing for when he gets drafted. Is that a retirement? I mean, I wouldn't really call it one. Guys set out seasons for injury all the time. Like I guess we'll see kind of how that plays and what the narrative around it, the explanation of it is. but the most likely outcome is he shows up in the fall or the winter

maybe he starts the season a little late if it requires surgery and recovery why would we possibly think that LeBron is actually going to retire but the genius of him doing this and he really understands better than any player in the league that part of the game is understanding how to control the narrative when you lose

we're having a two-track conversation it is though is it not you're big into like the politics of press conferences today. But look, this is the thing. It's like we're on this podcast talking, we're having the conversation. Like, is LeBron going to retire?

I'm, Waz and I are telling you, we don't even believe it to be true, but we have to entertain the conversation, which means we see him creating the smoke screen. We see the smoke trailing all the way back to LeBron on the ground, you know, banging Flint and Steel together to make sparks.

But we have to trace it all the way back down, and we have to look at it and say, oh, we know LeBron is doing this, why would he be doing this? And that leads us down the rabbit hole of like, oh, is their roster good enough? Oh, does he want them to retain certain guys? Oh, is he trying to put pressure on them to trade for Kyrie, to trade for Star X? He gets to have it both ways.

He gets to have his heroic game four exit where he had as dominant of first half as we've seen from him in a long time, played his heart out, played basically every second of that game, then went on the press conference stage and told us what we should be talking about, which is one of the greatest players of all time I retire. Talk about that for a couple days. And we're like, yes, podcast segment, let's go. Some of us are like that, Justin. Some of us are like that more than others.

So I think I actually don't care about the retirement stuff so much as what it signals. About his relationship with that. That's what I'm saying, though. No, no, no, not even in the relationship to the team, but the status of the team. And we talked about this at the end of game three. I do feel like they hit the, they maxed out on the AD LeBron plus other guys that fill around approach. And I think LeBron is keenly aware of that. Not getting a single game against the Nuggets is a pretty big indict.

The Nuggets are an awesome team. They deserve all the plaudits that they're getting despite what these guys might tell you about my opinion about the Nuggets. We love to hear you finally admit it. But not even getting game four with LeBron playing every minute and really going out and dying on his shield. I think was probably a signal to him that like, we need more. And I don't disagree. The problem is like, how does that happen? Because they went to great extent just to get some of these role players,

almost all of whom are basically up for free agency now. And so the Lakers are caught in this pretty no-win situation where you could roll back the team that couldn't get it done this season. Or you could strip it all down, try to get a Kyrie or God forbid a Tray Young in there. But even that is like painfully difficult because those guys all make a certain amount of money that's going to make it almost impossible. And so I'm like, I understand. If LeBron's point was to point toward like, we need to do something more, I get it.

But I also wonder, like, what can they do? Like, it is an impossible situation. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if there was competent management over there who could, who you trusted to deal with this in a manner that would make sense and keep the team on, solid ground. I don't think anybody trust. As much as we want to be like, wow,

Rob Polinka, he really fixed this thing during the trade deadline. It's like, he's the one. Yes, go ahead. I think the moves

that the Lakers made on the fringes were excellent. Yeah. I think like the fact that Austin Rhee is a former two-way guy is now like a core member of this team who could reasonably get like, it's a big deal.

Like a $20 million a year annual value contract, I think is like a godsend. We want to talk about Herb Jones, like, getting picked in the second round and, like, what an amazing pick that was. This is way better because this is like a core guy now. Like, so I do think they made a lot of moves that made this team the best possible version it could be. But to your point, like, yeah, the background in like some of the previous moves have been pretty spotty. Well, even in his exit interview, Anthony Davis was saying, like, we don't even know what our team is going to look like.

I'm sorry, it might have been his post game interview. Just like there's so many guys on this team who are free agents. We have no idea what the roster is going to look like. But when you run down that list of free agents and you think about like, how much would it hurt to lose Alani Walker? How much would it hurt to lose in Austin Reeves? I think, you know, the degrees to which that would actually like pain the Lakers may vary, but they're all guys that they found either like on the scrap heap for minimums,

in trades for second round picks, for the mid-level exception. Like, they are doing what teams in their position need to be doing, given all the constraints that Justin talked about. Austin Reeves cannot go anywhere. That is... No. No. That is not in the...

That's not even a conversation. I think Rui has shown that he's a guy. Yeah. He's done it in big possessions, big games. He's a guy. And Dennis Schroeder was literally your only point of attack defender who wasn't LeBroner, AT. Like, to me, those are the guys that look at him and be like,

all right, man, these guys can't really be moved. The rest of that, I'm looking at you, DeAngelo Russell. Do I really need that? Sure. I certainly don't believe so. If you're bringing back Reeves and Hachamura and you're saying like, yeah, forget the rest. Or maybe like Schrooter.

Like, first of all, Schroeder is going to need a bigger contract because he was playing on the minimum on a make good deal. Like, you're now cap constrained to potentially only the mid-level exception. And you basically need to do all. the work that you did previously yet again. You need to find, keep finding guys for minimums on two ways, whatever. And that's like kind of the problem with teams that are so top-heavy. This is even before we get into all the salary cap constraints that are coming in the new CBA, which is going to make it near impossible to even maybe even have AD LeBron Reeves,

if Reeves gets what I think we think he deserves. And so like I just wonder if we're at Atkins Razor here and that like maybe this is the end. of a LeBron James team life cycle, like typically in Cleveland and in Miami that it's been four years. This is now going into what, year six? I wonder if like a organization that wants to go all in

in order to support LeBron like he's used to can even function in year six because of the pressures and the amount of work you need to do on the fringes in order to build around him. It is tough. I mean, if we're just going to play the LeBron hits back because it does seem like that's kind of

the way this goes to your point about the life cycle. Like, this guy needs a fucking playmaker, you know? Like, they need another point guard. This is the problem with the DeAngelo Russell conversation is they do kind of need a player like him, just not him. They need someone who will make better decisions. They need someone who can just, like, be more consistent as a shooter, who won't stop the ball, who won't be as much of a target defensively.

Because we kind of saw over the course of that series, if Dennis Schroeder is your only guy, like Schroeder can be a little inconsistent himself offensively. He can be very foul prone if you're putting him in high leverage matchups. That's not exactly the answer either. And LeBron, while he can be dominant for a half at a time, he's just not equipped to be a full-time attack the basket playmaker over the course of multiple consecutive series. So you do need, whether it's Austin Reeves growing into that role even more

or bringing in another guard who's going to be in this kind of platoon situation, you do need more ball handlers there. You do need more like structural playmaking help. Yeah, and also, if I'm Rob Polinka, I'm just sending whoever, pictures of Russell Westbrook's face. Anytime I hear a single thing about LeBron retiring and agitating about the roster and blah, blah, blah,

last time we let you bully us into some veteran upgrade, superstar, third banana, blah, blah, blah thing. It was a fucking disaster for a year and a half. All disaster. Not one moment of sunlight or daylight in 18 months. The last time we let you bully us into some must-have veteran acquisition. So there's something to the idea of Polinkas saying, like, nah, we stick it with the young ins, man.

We want to be with the young ins, all this other shit. Like, yo, bro, last time we tried to do this, It was terrible. We traded away. Wing depth, we traded away. Youth. We traded away all this versatility to bring in a bum, or somebody who played like a bum, excuse me, for us anyway. And so that's sort of the pushback that you give to the LeBron, quote unquote, scare tactics. Well, there was a great, I don't forget I saw the Kyle Kuzma response to Rob Polinka mentioned that he wants to keep the core of young guys together. And Kuz gave a lot of tears crying emoji heard that before. response. Just to bring this whole point full circle. Kuzma will never let the Lakers trading him for no freaking reason go. And rightfully so. That really was kind of the original sin of everything that ultimately was ailing this team was that deal and what they had to give up to execute it. They were able to save so much face and pull everything together to make this run. And genuinely, like,

we're giving LeBron some grief about his messaging here. But the way he was, what he was willing to put on the line to push the Lakers this far. And the way he played over the course of these playoffs is nothing but admirable as hell. Like he put it out there in exactly the way you want your best player to put it out there. At the same time, like, if they had a credible big man, do we not think they would have been way more like a big man alternative to AD like behind him that isn't Winian Gabriel Tristan Thompson and Mo Bamba? Like, if they had some, like, credible big man next to AD, I think a lot of their problems this series of just being completely incapable of guarding Denver would be, would have been mitigated in a lot of ways.

It doesn't feel like this roster is like head and shoulders worse than Denver. These were, like, competitive games. I just think they were handicapped in ways that, you know, spelt death against this specific. opponent, right? I don't think they go out against Miami, say, in the next round and just get their doors blown off. Same, absolutely not, with Boston. So, yo, part of me is this, like, I mean, do they really need to panic for real and, like, completely overhaul this thing? I don't know. I love the contrast in those team building approaches, though, between the Nuggets and the Lakers, where, Justin, as you said, part of the Lakers problem is that they are so top-heavy.

It is LeBron and AD, and we're going to fill in the gaps with whatever we can find. And that requires you, as you laid out, when those guys become free agents, you have to all of a sudden find another scrap heap guard who's going to be just as good. You have to overpay guys to keep them in the house. You know, you hit it big with Austin Reeves, but now you've got to manage to retain him. On Denver side, you have a very different proposal, very different formula, which is you have a pretty clear core four or five guys. And you're trying to keep those plates all spinning in the air at the same time. And we've seen what happens when two of them get hurt. You know, obviously there's different risk factors involved. But when you have a core four versus a core two, now all of a sudden, what you need is like, can Jeff Green just be good enough for this one series to get us through it? You're just relying on one of these like roll the dice role players as opposed to whatever the Lakers look like next season, they're probably going to need like three or four or five roll the dice guys

to all come up sixes or fives. And we'll see if they have that in them again or if they can at least keep enough of these guys in house. See, I don't know. I think if they retain the core of what they have, and then add another, let's say, a Bruce Brown proxy, just like really hit a home run on the mid-level in the way that they didn't with Lonnie Walker.

I think this team is probably back in the mix yet again. They'll be in the mix. Yeah. They put, like, pick them to win the West. But like, once again, I find myself aligning with Belenka more than I ever expected in my life. But like, I do wonder if he's right. And in large part because, like, also, how many games is LeBron

going to play in the regular season? How many games is AD going to play in the regular season? I know it's hard to remember now when DeAngel Russell is just putting up one for five performances from three and just like basically dying on every screen. But like he helped them get through the stretch at the end of the regular season without LeBron James in order to make the play in. And so like he did. He's a very solid regular season player, especially in the last 15 when most teams are tanking. And, you know, you're playing a bunch of bums anyway. So yeah, he's solid for that.

He's nice, as DeAngelo said himself of his own game. He's nice. Yeah, and I wonder if like the big that they need, that extra big might just be Jared Vanderbilt, but like maybe Vanderbilt who has worked all summer on his corner three so that he could be a viable offensive player that you just like can't just play off the floor. I think he's a, I think he's more than a summer away from a credible corner three. Yeah. Because he can't even be PJ Tucker from the corner. Like you can't even imagine his three is going in.

He's a, he's been in that place for a while. You know, teams have been waiting on the Jared Vanderbilt. about corner three experience for a long time. And that's not to say that guys don't have like a mid-career Renaissance in this way, but the Lakers have to be banking on more than just that. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to spare you

the last part of this where I suggest whether or not LeBron should return to the heel of the Cavs or the Knicks. And let's just wrap it here. No, I kind of do, wait, hold on. I kind of do, I do find the LeBron in a new location. It can't help him.

That's a fun, that's a fun story. Let's go. That is a fun story. Now, some Stockholm syndrome going on here. Can I give you the options? Hold on one. First of all, first of all, Rob, don't front like the decision in 2010 was not one of the greatest sports spectacles ever. It was.

This ain't that. The man is 39 years old. He's on a bum foot. But he still got it. He's still pretty freaking good. And he would make a difference, obviously, a material difference on any team that he went to. So it is still interesting to think of LeBron actually high tailing his way

out of Los Angeles somehow. Yeah, if the decision is the sellout tour, whatever his free agency would be now is like his Vegas residency. This is late period. Late period, LeBron. I don't want to be on a plane or a tour bus every day. But I'm going to sell this shit out every night. Elvis. This is Fat Elvis era.

LeBron. Yes. Okay. Just quickly, I'm going to give you the three options here. Okay, you tell me which one you want to see. So it has to be a trade, which would be insane just to start with. But we're already down this rabbit hole. So let's keep going. To the Miami Heat, they realize, you know what? We did pretty well without Tyler Hero.

So we're going to take Kyle Lowry's basically expiring contract at that point in Hero and throw in the picks, whatever you need to make this fantasy situation work. for LeBron James. LeBron, it's now LeBron, Jimmy, bam. They take two threes a game now.

All of them are from Duncan Robinson who is now playing 40 minutes a game because they have nobody else on their roster. The Cleveland Cavaliers for Darius Garland, who I think would be a godsend, like Garland AD, plus other guys with the awesome team to watch.

I know. You can't do that. Plus Isaac and Coro for LeBron James. It's now LeBron, Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell, Jared Allen.

Pretty interesting. Finally get the wing they need, and it just so happens to be LeBron James for the third time. Or your New York Knickerbockers, the basically fanfic that has been written for what? A decade plus now happens. It's Julius Randall coming back home to L.A. And R.J. Barrett, because why not?

Jesus Christ. Bron is now a Knickerbocker. Him and Brunson are going to war with the heat in the second round. Unfortunately, probably losing that series yet again. What sounds the best to you guys? I got a third option and shout to producer Ben, excuse me, fourth option, shout to producer Ben Cruz. Let's do something around Jordan Poole's deal.

Oh, no. Or maybe Andrew Wiggins's deal and get LeBron to Golden State where him and Dremont could, they could bring that small ball, Draymond at the five, LeBron at the four, and supercharged that thing in Golden State. What do you guys think about that? So KOC wrote a little bit about this for the Ringer this week. I think, so there's the Andrew Wiggins construction feels a little more realistic just in terms of like the salary math

because otherwise it's like every young player into the pot just to get the numbers to work. But if you throw Wiggins in there, again, I don't really know what kind of team the Warriors are at that point. I feel like they really need the young legs at this stage in their kind of life cycle, but I can't be lying. I'd want to watch it. He could not do that.

I would absolutely love watching Steph and LeBron hoop together. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The basketball would be great, but just like all the implications about like what being used. Narrative-wise, you can't do it. It's a bad look. It's a bad look.

It's not quite as nasty as what KD did, but it's a bad look. Yeah. But some of these other options, too, like the Cavs thing has all obviously been in the ether from the day he. got to the Lakers. Like, would he ever come back at the end of his career for another run?

That would be the most annoying one. It would be a little annoying. But you can see it being plausible at some point. Maybe not now, but at some point. The heat are one where genuinely, I don't think Miami works that way.

No. They hate LeBron. They hate him. They, they, Bradley hates him. They bent. So did Gilbert, though.

Well. To be fair. But Miami bent like its organizational ethic more when LeBron came there and when he was operating there than basically any point in their recent history and since he left

I mean they already went to one finals they might be about to go to another finals I would imagine the conference finals last year yeah I would imagine they look at it as saying we don't need LeBron I would think that's how they would think that Pat Riley in the face of bringing LeBron back

considering how after every season since LeBron has left he's talked about chasing stars he would turn down the opportunity to bring him back here. He felt disrespected by the, you know, flying to Vegas, Maverick Carter having the TV mad loud and shit.

Sure. When he's trying to explain it. Like, he felt very wounded by that experience. He's not doing it, man. He'll get over that when they're just cashing billion dollar checks and Mickey Harrison could, like, build, like, four more fleets of power yachts, you know? I don't know. I don't know.

I think they're only maybe. like one or two or three teams. Professional pride there that's just different. Yeah, they're really only like one or two or three teams wouldn't even really entertain the LeBron possibility. I think that he'd are one of them.

Yeah, me too. Are the Kings, the other one? Well, they are, you know, they're ready, they're ready made. They're ready for this. I actually like that narratively. Like, you are now the foil to the warriors, like straight up.

Cowtown with LeBron versus. Oh, my gosh. Big glitzy San Francisco. Could we even imagine LeBron living in Sacramento by going to the... He's going to do the Kauai, like, live... Chauai living in San Diego flying into L.A., but he's going to live in San Francisco, like, fly out to every game in Sacramento.

Yeah. All right, let's wrap it there. Please, God. Thank you to Eduardo Campo on production. Thanks for Ben Cruiser-Filling. And we'll be back sometime this weekend, depending on how the schedule works out. Until then, we'll see it.