The Ringer NBA Show - Brandon Ingram Is Better Than Ben Simmons | The Mismatch

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

We talk about the Celtics' versatility, including Kemba Walker's range on and off the court (02:07), dive into how Brandon Ingram is the driving force making the Pelicans viable while Zion is injured (07:02), and ask whether Pascal Siakam is a legitimate no. 1 option (26:12). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show on the Ringer podcast Network is brought to you by State Farm. Just like basketball, the game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a state farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected and help you handle whatever life throws your way. Unpredictable, like Brandon Ingram becoming one of the better players in the NBA this year. We will certainly talk about that today on the show. Get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a state farm agent today about combined.

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Bringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me, see that every Friday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Bomberner, A.K. Kevin O'Climber, Kavanae, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Cliander, Kevin O'Connor. Berno, what's going on this Friday morning? Well, since we last spoke, I understand. And you saw a couple of teams in person, the Clippers and the Celtics. And you saw the return of Kauai Leonard so that he could be in tandem with Paul George and an outstanding regular season basketball game that took place that went to overtime. Give me your biggest takeaways from seeing the new look clippers with both their stars together and seeing the Celtics up close and personal. I put this thought in my is this real series this week.

on the ringer.com. And I think is it possible? Paul George is even more important or even better than we may have expected entering the season. I think the George that we're seeing with newfound floor spacing, better spacing than he's ever had in his career in Indiana or Oklahoma City. He also, like Kauai Leonard did early on in the season, looks like a better playmaker to me. Some of the passes he was delivering at the end of that game to Patrick Beverly, creating offense off the dribble and having the vision to deliver accurate passes with precision. I thought George looks like a better overall player.

And because Kauai is dealing with that knee problem and he seems maybe a little bit limited besides that just murderous dunk that he had on Daniel Tice towards the end of the game, Kauai, you know, has not been scoring the ball as efficiently. Is it possible? Paul George is maybe on more equal footing in terms of, you know, stardom as Kauai Lin, for the clippers than we may have expected. And that's a good thing for the team. Yeah, maybe not on equal footing.

I mean, but more equal footing. But I don't know. Do you, do you get past 10 before somebody's name in Paul George and the best players in the league? I mean, I guess on some people's list,

you might get to 15. I think he might be like eight or nine or saying something like that. Yeah, I mean, he's a pretty consistent all-star. 15's kind of low. 15's low. It's just,

I think that he, he was playing at an MVP level. That race last year was, And he is now, though, and he is now, too. It's only been a couple of games. It was Janice and Harden. And then Paul George went on that month-long stretch where he was the best player on the court virtually every night he played. And then the shoulder, you know, it kind of, it changed what we thought about him.

And then, of course, anytime you get humiliated in the playoffs and you get waved off by Damien Lillard, right, the perception is going to change a little bit. But this looks like the guy pre-shoulder injury, which was the best he'd ever been. Pre-shoulder injury, but possibly even better. And that's what's going to be so fascinating for this team moving forward because you have two stars in Kauai and Paul George that can perfectly coexist. And there was a moment towards the end of the game where both of them were just spotting up off ball. And you're okay with it because the Clippers also happen to have one of the best pick and roll duos in the league with Lou Williams and Montrez-Harre. And looking forward to tonight, Friday night, we have the Clippers and the Rockets playing. And this is another good test for the Clippers.

You know, first game, Boston, really good team. Second game, Houston. Granted, they just lost Denver. They've been outstanding on the defensive end of the floor. And obviously, James Hardin is just a load to handle. It'll be interesting to see how the Clippers defend hard. And they have so many guys that can throw at him with Patrick Beverly being, you know, the first instinct is a guy who might against Harden, but then you have bigger, longer, range of your defenders in Kauai Leonard

and Paul George. Yeah. So I wonder how Houston and tonight's game tries to get hard and going if, like, the typical ISOs aren't working or maybe Clippers pressure and forced ball out of his hands. That's what I'll be watching for. You know, a few weeks ago, we were discussing different teams and, and the subject of Draymond Green came up, and I said something to the effect of he's the best. third best player, right? That's what he is suited to be. If he's your third best player,

your team is awesome. But if he's your first or your second, well, Paul George now, two consecutive years, because he probably was the best player in Oklahoma City. I mean, people can, people can argue him in Russ, however you want to argue that. Russ was probably the alpha, but those two guys, you could have a debate. What you can't debate is he's not better than Kauai. And so he becomes your second best guy. And Paul George being everything on him, him carrying the load, that's not, that's not necessarily what you want. I don't think. You know, I don't know when, I guess we've seen what happens with Paul George is your best player, which you can have a really, really good team. Can you win a title like that? Probably not.

But if he's your second best guy, holy crap. I mean, this is what we're dealing with the other LA team too, right? With LeBron and Anthony Davis. It's like, geez, Louise, if you've got somebody better than him on your team, your team is absolutely fantastic, which of course the clippers are. Let me ask you about the team you watched play

against them that did take them to overtime. What did you think about the Celtics, seeing them up close? I mean, same as I do, watching them from afar from my couch. Really? Nothing particularly stood out different? It's a good team. I would say, we talked about them recently and I think with this team like the versatility they have just to actually talk

about the product on the court the versatility they have with the types of lineups they can put out there is a significant benefit for Brad Stevens. You know, Tatum and Brown both making progress improving as a ball handler in the case of Brown improving the shot selection as we've seen with Tatum. That's all great. But the one thing that was a takeaway from me seeing them in person and talking to, you know, people in media or people, you know, a couple front office guys. is they love Kemba Walker, everybody, you know, from media to people that work with the team. They love Kemba Walker. A couple of people said he's one of the nicest people they've met.

And Kemba, like, you can see that in his actions. He's a very thoughtful person. And there's like this is a little thing. But it's like at the end of the night, Kemba was waiting to do post-game media. And his suitcase was kind of like in a way of a hallway. and Jeff Twist, the Celtics PR guy was walking down and Kemba reaches out and moves his suitcase out of the way. That's a little thing. It's a little thing.

But it's like holding a door for somebody. And it was just sort of verifying of some of the things people were saying about Kemba that he is not somebody who, you know, is a like some passpoint guards, like a Carrie Irving, who is not thoughtful and not kind to people that he works with. And it was just kind of cool to see a little, you know, daily nice action from my. Kemba towards, you know, somebody else, somebody that he doesn't need to be nice to. So I think this team has good chemistry. And part of that comes from Kemba being who he is as a person. And that affects the team on the court. Granted, they lost that game.

It was still a great game without one of their best players. So in a way, my take on the team on the court has not changed, but I come away, even more impressed by what the chemistry is sort of revolving around Kemba walk as a person. Yeah, everything I had ever heard about. Kemba Walker was great. To your story, though, I mean, we're giving them a lot of credit for moving a suitcase. What's the guy going to trip?

I mean, you've got to be a real prick to leave your thing in the way. That's what I'm saying, though. Like, there are people who are real pricks and aren't thoughtful and don't hold a door or don't say thank you or don't think, do things like that. That's a, that's a human thing. And I just, I was just standing there talking with my buddy. And it was just nice to see Kemba like alertly look up and quickly reach

out and move his suitcase out of the way. It's a little meaningless thing in the grand scheme of life, but in the moment it was just a nice thing to see a guy who's been paid tens of million dollars and his whole life has been told that he's going to be great to do for somebody else. It's like holding a door for somebody.

That's all. And like it just after a whole day of people, you know, sometimes unprovoked saying how much they love Kemba when I would ask how the team's different. It was cool just to see that after talking to people about him early for the past three, four hours during the game. before the game and throughout the day it was unanimous from everybody from the boston side that you

spoke with that was that was the overarching theme yeah whenever you would bring up the team or start talking about the team they would all immediately start talking about how much they love yeah and it's just interesting though because it's like when the southics traded for kairi irving a couple years ago i i don't want to like beat a dead horse here but with kairi i thought kairi would would be a changed man in Boston. That first year was great. In the beginning of last season, expectations were high before it just fizzled away. And it's just really remarkable how now Kyrie has gone to a new place in Brooklyn.

And it's already weird there. It's already, you know, chemistry is not what it was before. Brooklyn had some of the best chemistry in the league the last two seasons. And this is- Who could have ever predicted that? This was, you, you, Verno Damos, whatever, whatever the correct, terminology is for that nickname. Whatever the correct terminology.

What is it? Vernodamus? Verno Damus. I don't know. Verno Domus. Thank you. That was one of my predictions going into the year. He's going to ruin the next.

Let's talk about stuff that happened yesterday. Okay. Well, before we get into another player... I'm going to talk about Brann & Ingram. We're going to. He was up for a contract that he did not get. Now, the Celtics look pretty damn smart, locking in Jalen Brown, don't they?

Sure, for the money that they did, yeah. And you juxtapose that versus what is happening in New Orleans. I don't know if he would have signed less than a max, but I guess he would have, you know, just to lock in a great contract. Maybe it's a little less. That dude, he ain't getting a penny less than the max now unless he gets hurt and knock on what he does not. But good grief.

You want to talk about a coming out party. season has been a coming out party for Brandon Inger. He's been just absolutely spectacular. Chris, every 25.6 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, shooting 45% from 3, 58% effective field goal percentage, 62% true shooting percentage. He has become the offensive player best case scenario version we ever could have expected from him because the shot is better. and I'm buying the improvement of the shot both off the catch from three and off the dribble from either deep two or from three as well.

Ingram, I've been waiting a while to say this, Chris, but I feel comfortable saying it now. Brennan Ingram is better than Ben Simmons. And the reason why I bring that up is because in the 2016 draft, myself, you know, Jonathan Giovanni, Mike Schmidt, a bunch of draft guys out there had Ingram ahead of Simmons. and for years that was rightfully held over our heads, especially mine because I always harp that Simmons shoots at the wrong hand. And congratulations to Simmons for shooting a three and making it this week. But that reaction to Ben making a three and just flat out taking a three,

compared to Ingram, who every night, every night is scoring at a high level, who's playmaking at a high level, who's versatile on the offensive end and the way you can utilize him either from the post, either in the pick and roll, either in spot-up situations, as an end-of-game score like we saw last night and the Pelicans went over the suns with some of the clutch shots he hit in that fourth quarter. That's normal from Brandon Ingram. And Ingram this year has not been good defensively. He is not, but that entire team has been bad on defense. But we have seen the last two years with the Lakers, Ingram can be good defensively. Ingram is just a better overall player, period. And I don't think it's even a hot

take to say that at this point. Because Ingram has made so much progress as a player, I mentioned earlier, Chris, his shooting is real. It is. And this is why he has changed his mechanics. If you look at the way his shot looked at Duke, it looked like he was just launching a ball from the side of his head with this awkward hitch, multiple hitchers in his shot. It was ugly. And over the years, he's really smoothing that release. And last year, he had an issue sometimes where sometimes a guy, this is a problem someone like Russell Westbrook has, where he brings the ball to the top of his release almost too early, where he loses momentum that springs from his legs up until the release of the ball through his fingers. Ingram had that problem too. And I think it was one of the causes of

his inconsistencies this year. The ball has such flow. He's bringing the ball to his release as he's jumping to the top of his leap as he's shooting the ball. And the ball's coming out smoothly as it has recently because he's improved his release. But now the timing of his shot is better and everything that's connected. He's better from the free throw line. He's better from three off the catch.

He's better off the dribble. And that is unleashing the rest of his game because he's even better now at getting to the rim. Everything has gotten better for Ingram. This guy's for real. And yes, he's a max player. No doubt about it. And he's going to soon be considered one of the better players in the game, I think.

Yeah, the numbers are just crazy so far. Now, he does, in fairness, he's not on a great team, Kev. I mean, Ben Simmons is proven. He can be part of a team that was one shot away and a key player that was one shot away from playing at the Eastern Conference. Brian Ringham also didn't get to the NCAA tournament in college. That's not on Ben Simmons for missing. the NCAA tournament. He just happened to be on a bad team. I just don't think what you said is an

indication of the player's talent. And it's like, yes, it's great. We've seen Ben perform on a big stage and the playoffs like Ben is one of the. And by the way, like these are guys that we're comparing apples and oranges. The only reason I bring it up is because that 2016 draft class, the three best guys are Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram and Pascal Seaccom. I think if you're, I think Seacom right now is probably the best. of those three. And then it's Ingram and Simmons. And I prefer Ingram over Simmons. And that's, that's, that's, that's only a commentary on that conversation we've had for years now to contextualize how much Brandon Ingram has improved. Because before it was obvious that Ben was better. But he has

not gotten any better or significantly better than he has since his rookie year, whereas Ingram has just made leaps every single season. And this year it's actually manifesting on the offensive end for him. So it's more just a compliment to Ingram continuing to expand his game and how impressive that it actually is. I can actually feel comfortable saying that to you that anger was better than Simmons. It's a, it's a compliment to him. And also for the Pelicans. Well, hold on. Let me take a quick time out. Was there ever a time over the course of the last, say, three years? You know I'm very, very high on Brandon Ingram also. Was there ever time over the course of the past three years that if I would have asked you, if you read,

the draft, would you still take Ben Simmons one, that you would have relented and said, you know what, now I would take Simmons one. I think there was times when I said, yeah, Simmons is better than Ingham now and it might end up looking silly. And, you know, for me to have Ingham ranked ahead of Simmons, I could end up being a mistake. But I always, you know, would say there's still a chance in it's going to be better because of the scoring potential. and his versatility on both ends

he can be a playmaker at 6 foot 9 he can still defend multiple positions even though he's not at the level of Simmons as a playmaker or as a defender it's just the scoring ability and a shooting ability the potential of that was so immense for Ingram and so that has finally started to work

for him so I never would have necessarily if I did a redraft if you're picking off what the player was yeah you'd put Simmons one a course but in future potential I still always loved Ingram as a prospect Right now, right now you would like, if I could give you either of the two stocks, you get these players for the next five years, you would choose Ingram. I mean, yeah. Also, if you're doing stock, Simmons stock is probably more expensive right now per share.

Ingram is probably a cheaper stock, a better buy. So I would, I would, I saw already, I already have plenty of Ingram stock. It's starting to pay off. I checked a fidelity this morning. But in passing, Chris, you mentioned, like, New Orleans hasn't been that good. You're right. Like, they haven't. They're only six to nine this year, but they've won four out of their last five. They beat the Clippers. And granted, the other games are Golden State, Portland, Phoenix, and they lost to Miami. But the team isn't, you know, totally out of it.

If Zion were to come back after the six of eight weeks from his original diagnosis, and this team is like four or five back. from the playoffs at that point in the bubble that the Western Conference has right now for that seven or eight seed with Phoenix, Minnesota, Sacramento, New Orleans, like that group right now and maybe Memphis, OKC, San Antonio, Portland play their way into that. A lot of teams, but New Orleans isn't totally out of it. And one of the reasons why is because of Brandon Ingram. And if Zion is able to come back and be healthy and produce,

with the rest of this roster that they have with J.J. Reddick is a Sharpshoer. He was awesome last night. Drew Holliday, who gave a lot of issues to that Phoenix defense last night. It was also an unbelievable, unbelievable defensive player with depth, with Lonzo Ball, Kenrich Williams. This team could be in it. They're not out of it. Just like Sacramento 0 and 5 was able to dig their way out, get back into it. They're not out.

They still get a shot. when is Zion Williamson returning? Do we have, if they updated this? There's been no update since then. But it was knee surgery. I think it was October, October 22nd, 2030 of the surgery,

something like that. And he's out six to eight weeks from them. I know they have said that they are not going to rush him back. Okay, he had his surgery October 21st. Okay. Successful surgery. I just found it here. Underwent it successful surgery.

Arthur scovic surgery to address a torn right lateral meniscus. And then... So six weeks would be December 2nd. Eight weeks would be December 16th. So maybe if he were to come back around Christmas or New Year. Well, I tell you this, even if they could stay within striking range of 500 by the time they get him back, that is absolutely a team that could make a run in the second half of the season.

For sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, they're not on of it. Oh, would you add him to their mix? I like them more than a lot of those rosters that you just listed off. And as we have seen, you know, who knows what we'll hold, but Portland and San Antonio are a shell of what we thought they were going to be coming into the year.

I mean, there is nobody that is completely out of it. I mean, for God's sakes, even Golden State who is three and 13, they're only five games out of the eighth seed. Like, that's how this is gone. so far. And I would suspect that they are out of it. But that's the, the truth of the matter is, they are only five games out of what is the eight seed right now. So a couple of good weeks, and you make real headway towards that. So as long as the pelicans can just stay, you know, in striking range, I would like their chances at getting one of those seven or eight seats.

I like them more than I do the other ones. Well, and that was sort of the conversation heading into the season, right? If a team has one bad stretch, that could be it. And that's why when the king started 0 and 5, it's like, well, they're out of it already despite expectations, but it's still super, super early. And that's the conversation now with the Portland Trailways. Of course, they lost last night by 8 to the bucks, 137, 129. Dame didn't play again. And it's the second game in a row.

He missed. And they can't be having stretches like this. They can't have games without teaming Lord because they're already so far out because the West is so loaded. But I will say this though, Chris, that eight seed may not be like a 48 win team. Like some people expect the heading into the season. I know, but that's what I mean. It's like even though the conversation heading into the year was everything I just said, that eight seed might be more like 500. I think because people expected Portland or Golden State or San Antonio to be like a 47,

48 win team potentially. The eight seeds seemed like something that would be far out of reach for a team that had a bad stretch. But because it's not, because it's a 500 teen in Phoenix Suns, Minnesota 8 and 7, those seven and eight seeds are still something a team can actually reach for even with a bad stretch. So Portland is not totally out of it. They just need to get back on track really, really soon or then it gets to be trouble.

Yeah, it took, let's see, for the, Is that right? 48. That's what the Clippers had last year. Both the Clippers. I think the number will be lower. Oh, significantly. It'll be lower.

And that's because of the increased depth around the league. They're, you know, these teams now can beat up on each other every night and parity has gotten, you know, I mean, look, and this is the first year in a long time that we don't just pencil in who's going to be in the NBA finals. You know, for, for years and years, people just penciled in. LeBron James in the Eastern Conference, and certainly until this year, just penciled in the Warriors and figured the regular season was a foregone conclusion. This is a different year.

And if you told me that the representative from the Western Conference, I suppose it will be one of the L.A. teams, but, I mean, this could be, if a Denver or a Houston or one of those teams, you know, ended up winning a series, or, you know, winning a West Finals to be able to get there, it wouldn't be the most shocking thing.

There is no favorite. And the West is at least very, very deep, very deep. The East, good Lord. I mean, God, once you get past Indiana, nobody's got a winning record. In the whole damn conference, it's a Buck, Celtics, Heat, Raptors, Sixers, Pacers. The seven seed right now is Brooklyn, who is six and eight, and they suck. and they've got Laverde out I mean the six and seven and eight are Brooklyn and Orlando

and then Charlotte I think the top end of the east is a little bit better than I expected though even though you know Philly's not the same level like I thought they would be I really liked Miami heading into the year they're even better than I thought they'd be I liked Boston didn't love Boston into the year I love I love the way they're playing now Toronto because of Siakums just I mean this guy he's awesome see acom's awesome man like he's he's had some growing pains recently with Lowry missing games, Gassol missing time. And it's hard for him to have so much defensive attention. But he's working through it still and still producing.

Just maybe not with the same efficiency as before. But man, like this guy keeps getting better, dude. It's awesome. Well, and you have, you wrote in your reality check that people can go read at the ringer.com is Pascal Seaccom a legit number one option. and you kind of chronicled what he has done so far this year. And the fact, I thought this was interesting. I did not, I would not have, if you asked me the trivia question,

I certainly would not have been able to name this. Four players averaging more than 20 shots and 36 minutes. That is a good trivia question. I should have framed it like that in the article. Yeah. So for everybody out. I'm not even sure I remember who they are. I wrote the thing.

If you have not. But if you have not checked out Kevin's article yet, 20 shots and 36 minutes. You have to average those this season. I'm going to tell you, Kevin, I do an NBA podcast and I'm at NBA games the entire week and watching them on TV. I think I would have gotten two. I would have gotten hardened and I would have gotten Beal. I certainly would not have gotten Siakum and McCollum.

I know. Seriously. McCollum is the crazy one to me. Like, because I would have, I certainly, even if you gave me a hint and you would have said it's a blazer, I would have said,

oh, Damien Lillard. I wouldn't have guessed that it was the McCollum, even if you told me it was the Blazers. It's pretty wild. Crazy stat. It is. It's wise. 20 shots and 36 minutes.

And in regards to Seattle. I'm, though, it's like, yes, his scoring efficiency is down. And, you know, that's something is partially because of his usage. They're running him through significantly more ISOs and pick and rolls and post-ups. He's having to create his own shot, unlike past years where he would be cutting from the corner. He'd be doing, you know, more dives to the rim to attack offensive boards or get ready for cuts. He'd be spotting up from the corner. Now he's become a guy shooting around seven out of ten.

of his threes from above the break rather than last season where it was seven out of ten from the corner. He has inverted his game and extended his range and become such a primary option in the half court by necessity, but he's also improved. I think what we're seeing from him right now is very real. The question now, and this is what I posed in the article, is there another level from Pascal Seaccom. What we're seeing now is a very good, great, maybe, half court star for Toronto.

Can he make that leap to being like a true number one superstar? Can he improve as a playmaker with making reeds? Can he improve at drawing fouls so he can be somebody who gets to the line to get his points and maintain his efficiency, See, even games where he's a little bit more fatigued, even games where he's facing greater defenses, even games where his shots just not falling, can he make this extra push? Can that happen, Chris?

Do you see that in Pascal C. Ackham? Because I do. Look, the guy has been absolutely unbelievable on a team that's 10 and 4 to start off this season and has not gotten great contribution from, if I told you that. 14 games into the season that Toronto was 10 and 4, and especially coming off of the title last year, that I guess you could have suspected that they would have a good record at the beginning of the season, but you look at who has been what this season. I mean, Marcus Aal has just been, he looks like a guy that played basketball the entire summer. Yeah. He does see,

He does seem tired. Oh, he's worn down to a nub. And then Kyle Lowry has had to miss. You know, they've played 14. He has missed six. Serge Abaka, you know, they've played 14. He only played in eight of them. I mean, that's the thing about this.

I mean, he is carrying a team. And the thing is, though, is like, to your point, yes, see, Akram's carrying him, but also he's not the only. the guy who's gotten better. Van Fleet has gotten better. O.G. Ananobe has gotten better. So there are three young guys, Siakum, Van Vleet, and Ananobe all got better. It's crazy to see. And I know like Van Vleet, you can point to his efficiency being lower than it has been in the past. He's shooting only 40% from two point range, 38% from three, only overall a 48% effective field.

percentage, but he's doing it with more volume. I don't really care about the efficiency at that point because he is a guy having to play over 37 minutes per game, having to shoot more because Kyle Lowry and having to do it suddenly in a role that he wasn't supposed to have entering the season. O.J. and Nobie is not going to continue to shoot over 50% from three. Well, he's also put up eight. But his shot looks better too. Van Bly, he's still, he's having to go get starters every night now, you know?

It's only naturally your efficiency would be down the first month. But the fact you can do it with such volume and still produces is great. You'd see them, you'd see them play the last few years. And, I mean, he'd come off the bench and could just flip the game. And there was a lot of times where Dwayne Casey and then Nick Nurse that has followed would just leave the bench in to close out games. So Van Vlead is, look, he's always been fantastic. But maybe, you know, that DVD, whenever it comes out of the Toronto Raptor season last year,

that's going to be out by now, right? It has to be, right? I hope it includes what it was the craziest. That, he honestly, I can't tell you, you can probably go back and find these shows, how many times that I came on during the playoffs and said, what the hell is going on with this guy? Like, it was like, oh for aid, and he was just, he was terrible. And then they, he and a significant other had that baby.

And the guy turned into damn, I don't know, Michael Jordan. The guy was out of his mind and clutch. It was the craziest thing. But, I mean, at the beginning of the playoffs, I can't remember how many times I was watching them going, what happened to him? Like, why? Why is he so bad?

And boy, did it flip. and they won a title in large part because of him. I think Hubey Brown voted him for MVP of the finals. I'm serious. Interesting choice. That's how much, that's how highly, at least some people that were there at every game thought of him

and thought that he mattered to their level of success that they had. But yeah, on Siakum, again, is he, I think it's Paul George Territory, Kevin. Is that fair? I think amazing second best player. If there's a ceiling on you if he's your best. But again, there's only a few guys to believe that can be the best player on a title team probably.

Because that was the thing that we just touched on with Siakum, Chris. Paul George was somebody who didn't get to the line a lot early in his career. He was scoring over 20 points per game every season. But what separates those very good scores from those great scores is the ability to draw a lot of free throws. And Paul George has become a guy who can get to the line six or seven or eight times a game instead of three or four like he did early in his career. And for Seacom, that's the next step. I think he's a different type of player than George.

George is a better shooter. But Seacom can be a similar impact player to your point. But he needs to be somebody who gets to the line more often. And like I feel bad, like even like pointing out a flaw. in Seacom's game, but the point is to say that he has totally become a great player. And because he's become so great, so fast, and made so many leaps, I can't help but think about what might be next for him. And I can't help but think that it's actually going to come. And that's amazing. Look, I'm not, I'm not saying that he, it's not a demerit on Paul George

that I think that he, if he's your second best player, your team has a chance at the title. Right. Like, and there's been tons of guys like, this. Paul Gasol, if he was, if he was going to be your best player, it wasn't going to work. But when he got to go flank Kobe, it could win titles with that. Chris Bosch, he was obviously probably the third wheel with the Miami thing. Ray Allen, who though in his prime, had a Bucks team that very well could have competed for a championship. But we see, we talk about this all time. Kyrie Irving, playing alongside LeBron, you know, able to win a title, but you probably don't want him as your best guy. Clay Thompson. This is a lot. It's

It's not a demurred on Clay Thompson. I mean, if Clay Thompson moved off from the Golden State Warriors and went somewhere, he'd probably be amazing. His numbers would probably go up. I'd suspect both would happen. But that team, if he's your best guy, it's got a ceiling on it. And I'm not saying that, I'm saying if you've got Pascal Seaccom as your second best guy, we know.

I mean, they did. They won a damn title last year. And whether you want to argue it was Lowry or Gasol or whoever else, I mean, they had a great collection of talent, but here's what I know. I don't know if he's alpha. I can carry you to a title, but anybody's better than him on the team. Your team is dynamite. That's for sure.

Great player. He's great. He's great. Yeah. I mean, both players are obviously great. I think George has come a lot closer to the territory of becoming a guy who can be your best player and you can compete for a title. Yeah.

He's a lot closer to that last season and so far this season. than he's ever been at any point in his career. And that's the question now for Siakum. He's better. This is real. What we're seeing right now from him and helping really carry this Raptors team to an awesome start, despite losing Kauai Leonard,

despite having guys out, despite having guys limited. It's real. Now that's next for him. Let's cover one more of those from the article that dropped today on the ringer. And it is a three-part series so everybody can go back and read the three parts. This was fun to do this week for what it's worth.

I had a lot of fun. I was writing like a maniac, but I had a really fun time looking at one. It's basically one question for every team. Is this real? So super fun article series to write. All right, pick your favorite one of the ones that you wrote and part three is out today. There's a part one and part two of the three part series reality check that

Kevin O'Connor came out with the NBA reality check. Which of those was your favorite one? The BAM out of bio one is BAM out of Iowa Miami, Stremont Green? I just want to talk about BAM, that's all. All right, let me hear it. Bam, I wrote about him a week after the season about being a potential someday, a potential defensive player of the year. Because of his versatility in the defensive end of the floor,

is a guy who can defend multiple positions as a big who can slide with guards and wings, but also be a handful for some of the traditional bigs in the league, like an Mbid or a yokech. There's very few guys who can do that. But what I didn't talk about then, but I did talk about this week, is his passing. His passing is so fun. Miami runs offense through him in the half court and lets guys circle around them, cutting, setting screens, and he picks defenses apart with bounce passes to cutters and

lasers to three-point shooters. and then transition, he runs the break. See, Akam-esque. It's beautiful to watch, Chris. Okay, the one that you posted in the article, and everybody's got to go check this video out. So he is driving to the top, right, where it appears it's going to be a handoff,

but he skips the handoff, and then he is just standing there at the top of the key, to where he finds a cutting, I believe it's Keedrick Nunn, who's cutting to the basket on this. and it is like a one-handed, like, it looks like a point guard passing it. It's like this scoop to the side, bounce pass. Yeah.

Shockingly great pass, you know what I mean? From a guy, because I certainly, I don't mind you highlighting this at all because I, I would not have realized, now this is one clip, but the numbers are the numbers. the guy can pass the ball and facilitate offense for sure. And you know, it's like Draymond in this clip. It does. It really does. It really does.

It's like a Draymond-esque pass. And with Miami, it's so interesting because they're a team entering the season, not even entering the season as much as during the summer, people were like, will they be a team that would trade for Chris Paul? I think the answer is clearly a no. And that's because they run their offense through everybody. They run it through Jimmy Butler. They run it through Dodgers.

They run it through Winslow. They run it through at a bio. They're the only team in the league with four qualifying players all averaging over four assists. Because they spread the ball around, at some point in the postseason, you're going to have Jimmy Butler handling a lot more of that load for the team. But they have options and they have guys who can handle the ball. I didn't even mention somebody like Tyler Hero who can handle or Kendrick Nunn who can handle and playmake.

These guys could run out lineups with five guys on the floor who can all shoot, who can all handle and who can all defend sometimes multiple positions. This team is really, really good. I'm not sure if they're a championship team, but they're damn close in the East. Surprise, surprise. The team that Jimmy Butler went to is really good. By the way, what about frigging Duncan Robinson? That happened since we last spoke.

Nine threes, nine, 29 points in their game against a K. since we last one. We had eight three-pointers in the first half. That is just absolutely incredible. And they had, I swear, that Miami team does such, that organization does such a great job of, they trade their damn first round pick like every year.

And yet they identify and develop young talent over and over again. and they use the G League to their benefit, to their great benefit. And then, I mean, it's year after year, right? They come in and they have found guys in the second round. They have found guys, you know, that are undrafted, and they develop them and turn them into players. Or they already were players and they just get the most out of them.

But they, I mean, this is, they got a real track record of being able to do this. It's remarkable. It really is. I mean, I say that because maybe Duncan Robinson is doing that no matter what. But I don't think so. I don't. You know what I mean? Like he wasn't sure fire.

No. He certainly isn't a guy that you expected to be coming in a game, nailing eight threes. And you know that in that game he shot 15 times. Every shot he took was a three. Every shot. And he had two. 29 points. He made nine threes. This is like,

Duncan Robinson has got to be your favorite player in the world. That's all he does is shoot three. Yeah. Yeah. Are you saying that to me? My favorite player in the world? Yeah, you know. No, I don't know. Not really. I mean, I'm not sure where I'd rank him, but he's probably not in the top 75, 100. I like guys who can shoot threes,

but I'm not falling head over heels like the former OSP boys, Titus and Tate. They love Duncan Robinson. and when he's in college at Michigan. They had them on the show, I think. Right? Yeah, a couple times maybe. Summer League. That's right.

Yeah. You know, you were talking about Bamada Vio's passing. We do need to mention this. The Janus Triple Double, which included a career high 15 assists last night, which is just a gargantuan number. That went along with 24 points and 19 rebounds. And the Bucks, that team lost Middleton.

and they have just kept on trucking. They have won six straight. They're 12 and 3 with the best record in the east. And you look at their three losses. It's an overtime loss to the heat. It's a game at Boston. And it's a three-point loss at Utah. I have been incredibly pleased with Dante DiVincenzo,

who I put in my ringer players that will not fail list for the draft. So I love seeing Dante get a chance and make the most of it. but they have 12 players averaging 14 or more minutes per game. So they are getting contributions from everywhere to go along with Janus being just out of his mind, out of his mind. Yeah. 15 assists? Yeah. It's interesting.

I know Charks wrote this week in the ringer about how the loss of Brogden is something that they should try to fill. And I agree with that. though with that said it is interesting you know someone like de vincenzo sometimes like when it comes to looking at your own roster i wonder if milwaukee when it came to the decision to let brogden go they're looking at their roster and like okay de vincenzo is a guy that we feel like we can rely on you know in addition to signing veterans like wesley matthews and kyle corver and maybe someone like sterling brown were to step up i wonder if that was part of the equation or they felt good about the development of the guys that they had on their team because

even to you he right he looks good he looks like the guy we saw at villanova doesn't he yes and they they also thought we're a year away from having to pay uh the big guy a billion dollars well yeah and that's but that's one of the reason that's also one of the reasons to sign rogden though because it because rogden is so good yeah but i mean are you you you how you're building the team you'd have those three under contract i'm not sure that you'd have much money for anything else. It was a gamble. It was a gamble.

So let him go? Yeah, there was a gamble because he's really good and you could potentially weaken your team and potentially therefore anger the guy you're talking about Yan Asante de Kumpo. But the benefit of it is like you're not getting into that luxury tax too early. Because at some point, if you're going to become a repeater tax team, after you resign Yana Sondon of the Kumpo, that's the time to do it. Right now would not be the time to start that clock. So it's a gamble and it may pay off in the long run if these guys like a Devinchenzo, like a Sterling Brown continue to get better.

And Devin Chenzo looks like the guy who may actually be making that mini leap as a role player on this team. He's playing great, man. He's playing great. Like I said, he looks like the guy we saw at Villanova, not the guy that was like, you know, dominating towards the end of that season of Nova. But he's the guy for the who can be a guy who hits three, who can do some stuff off the dribble for you. who plays hard on defense. That's what you want and a role player next to Janus, isn't it?

Yes. And surprise, surprise. My best friend, John Horst has done it again. Smartest guy in the room. Yeah. I mean, like you guys, like you went to kindergarten together, didn't you? We did not go to kindergarten together.

But we certainly had our moments. Last thing we need to mention today. So this ran through my mind, okay? And just hear me out. is after this Janus run that has just been crazy, it seems like every night, you're hearing something crazy that he did. Obviously, the team has got an amazing record. And he just had that 15 assists night last night. So awesome. So awesome. So, okay? So awesome. So, All right. So rookie of the year always has to change, okay? But follow me here. Is it possible that the awards from last year could simply just be repeated? Hear me out. Rookie of the year has to change, right? Most valuable player, Janice Antecoon, Kea Sixth Man of the Year award, Lou Williams, defensive player of the year, Rudy Gobert, NBA most improved football.

lawyer, Pascal Seaccom, coach of the year, Mike Budenhouser. Yeah. That's possible. Outside of rookie of the year. That's possible. If those were your picks, nobody would think you're goofy, right? No. No, you can be right.

See, Occam should win most improved as of right now. I guess, Ingram, your guy. I mean. But see what it's arguable. Yes. Yeah. If those were your picks, if you said, I pick Janice, Lou Williams, Rudy Gobert, Pascal Seaccom, and Mike Budenhouser. I don't think anybody could have a real strong argument against that.

I don't think so. I think everything you just said is true. And it's exactly who won the awards last year. And I know, and I know your rookie of the year vote would go to Memphis Grizzlies, Brandon Clark. It would actually go to job. I know, I know. I know. I love Bernie Clark, though. I think, I believe Brandon Clark has the highest P-E-R for what it's worth. I had, I tweeted about you this week in regards to Brennan Clark.

I said, when you tune into a Grizzlies game, it's, you're going to say John Morant breaking ankles or Jaron Jackson blocking shots or Chris Vernon, co-hosting the halftime show. But the person you come most impressed by is who is it, Chris? It's Brandon Clark. And I took issue with that. Come on. Come on. No, I took issue because you'd be most impressed with me. And then Brandon, if you want to say Brandon. Okay, sure. Thank you. Thank you.

But I hope, look, you know what? And this is for you too. There will be a lot of people tuning in tomorrow night because it's not a national television game. But the Grizzlies are unveiling their old school court and they're wearing. they are wearing the Vancouver Grizzlies in a throwback and they are playing the Lakers. So we'll have a lot of viewers tomorrow night. That's for sure.

Dude, I look forward to us. When did you see what these look like? I went to the photo shoot the other day. Oh, my God. They are clean. People are going to freak out. And the court looks crazy. It's the old huge brown, you know, Vancouver grizzly.

It looks great. All the teal. are these jerseys even prettier in person than they are on Twitter? Yes. Yes, they're unbelievable. Seriously. They look great. And people are going to freak out when they see it for sure. I wish I could teleport to the Memphis to see the game. You'll see a lot of NBA Twitter talking about it because those are one of the ones that people really loved back in the day for sure. But, and hopefully Brandon Clark and the rest of them show well because the last. Last time they played against the Lakers, they got absolutely crushed. And Anthony Davis took 24 free throws and like, he took 24 free throws like in the game.

I think he had like two field goal attempts and like 40-something points in the second half. It was something ridiculous. They had nothing, nothing that they could do with him. It was one of the most dominant things I've seen in a long, long time. but anyway, yeah. And last thing, before we get out of here, I need you to give a public apology. Uh-oh.

Yeah. What? Why? I want you to give a public apology. Do not only the people of San Antonio, but the Spurs organization. A few days ago on the Ringer NBA show, you buried the San Antonio Spurs,

and you declared their season over, though they were only, whatever, 13 games into the season. After that aired, San Antonio Spurs went to go play a game against the Washington Wizards, in which they gave up 100,000 points and got beat again, therefore solidifying their longest win streak in a long time. It is my opinion that they listened to you say that their season was over, and then they conducted themselves as a team whose season was over, taking a brutal, humiliating loss to the Washington Wizards,

don't you feel terrible? I might feel bad when they just get demolished tonight by the Philadelphia 76ers. You know what they need to do? I might feel bad a little bit. Yeah, that was your idea, right? That was your idea. You came up with that idea to trade to Rose.

Because you know what? all these years, Chris, you've always been the guy who's like, blow it up, blow it up all these years. It's always been you. Hey, look, I fought you tooth and nail. You always wanted to trade Mark a soul and Mike Conley. You always wanted Chicago to trade Jimmy Buller. Those things aren't true.

But what is true is I watched San Antonio play the Wizards the other night. I said, no, to hell with that. I'm done with that. It's not good, man. You can't be the damn wizards and give us. to give up 100,000 points. In fairness, though, the Wizards have like a top five. I was looking this up yesterday.

They're like top five in offensive efficiency in the NBA. What the hell? Well, Bertons had a pretty good quote this week. He's like, we score like 140 or 150 points every single night, but we're still losing. We only need to be below average on defense to start winning games. I can't believe they're scoring like that, though. I can't believe they're scoring at that rate. It's really incredible.

It's really incredible. They are better than I thought they were going to be. Yeah. Oh, no doubt. And, you know, that was, I mean, one of the nice stories with this team this year is Isaiah Thomas. Isaiah looks pretty good. He's not back to his full self, but he's scoring the ball. He's pulling up from three.

He's passing more than he has in the past because he's not getting to the rim as much. It's been nice to see Isaiah coming along. And by the way, he has great chemistry with our guy on the ringer NBA show. Mo Wagner. Wagner is coming along as well with Washington. A lot of good ex-lakers in the league. I feel like we've hit on a handful of them in this pot alone. But Wagner looks great coming off the bench for the Wizards.

13 points per game. Go, go Mo. Hey, you ready for another one? Thomas Bryant. Thomas Bryant. He's a good one. We could make a really good roster off former Lakers around the league. That's actually a good article idea.

Maybe I should, I should, I should write that. There you go. The former Laker team. All former Lakers. Lakers, yeah, all, all X Lakers, something like that. That's a working title. I mean, even your bench, you know what I mean? You still get like the, the, the, the Larry Nances and whatnot coming off of that.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, what's your, what's your nice to have coming off your bench? Jeez, there's a lot of former Lakers. You're right. Actually, my, my pitch that, nobody take that idea. Yeah, nobody, somebody's still that idea. It's probably, it's probably been done before, but.

We're putting this in the, we're putting this on audio right now, as public record. If you write this article, if you steal this idea, you, everybody's going to know you got it from us, everybody.

So you'll let Kevin do this the right way, the way it should be done. There's, there's, you, content, whores.

Wow. Geez, Verdo. Wow. Wow. Wow. Coming out strong. No,

I mean, people can write one way. By the way, by the way, 30. who was that you said? Brad Peel. He's average in 30.

30. Well, by the way, just to tie this back to something we hit on earlier with Seacum, Bradley Beale's one of those guys who, like Pascal, has gotten better every single season of his career. And this year, you know, last year when John Wall went out, we saw him take a leap. This year, entering the season with John Wall out, he's taking another leap as a score, as a playmaker,

doing it with more volume, still while maintaining his efficiency, It's amazing. It's amazing. And he's still only 26. And the other day. Hey, and I'm going to say this on the other, on the other front with the Wizards. They got these guys, like obviously Isaiah Thomas is happy and playing his heart out. But Moe Wagner, good guy, bird hands by all counts, good guy. C.J. Miles, great veteran to have around a young team. Is Smith, steady, been around the block chip on his shoulder guy, has been good in every locker room he's ever been in.

You know, you add a bunch of guys that are good guys and good veteran guys and guys that have something to prove, then sometimes, you know, look, I don't think they're winning 30 games, but that team is, they're fun to watch and more competitive than I would have imagined for sure. And I can catch you if you don't, if you don't come to play, because they can't score. At the least, they're a fun team to watch. And that is a- I would have never suspected that. Yeah.

Ever. They're fun. They are a fun team. And there's really no team in the league besides maybe the Knicks that isn't fun to watch. I know I said this recently, but even Golden State, they stink. But I do like watching their young guys, especially like Pascal, get opportunity. I like seeing DeAngel Russell with a lot on his shoulders. I like seeing an opportunity to see.

dream on be really the only guy sometimes and the results aren't great but it's it's fun to see these storylines unfold i forgot about i forgot about russell in our last conversation lanzo wouldn't even start he's a former laker yeah it's pretty wild we didn't seem to be loaded i know he said thomas brian and mo vogner both of them we got players everywhere It puts out like a full 15 man roster, I think. It's not even like a five-team roster or a 10-team roster. You need 15 guys. It's got a really chill it out.

You have a deep team for sure. Anyway, all right. Get to working on that. I can't wait to read it. I'm going to pitch it right now, actually. Very good. Kevin, I'll talk to you next week. See you, Chris.

Everybody, have a good weekend. Thanks to everybody for listening to another edition of the mismatch. If you did what you're hearing, go give us a rating review on iTunes, five stars. Five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you. week.