The Ringer NBA Show - Breaking Down the Capela-Covington Blockbuster Trade | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 5, 2020

News of a four-team, 12-player trade revolving around Clint Capela and Robert Covington broke late Tuesday night, with numerous implications for the entire league. We discuss what this means for each team, as the trade deadline looms. Host: Justin Verrier Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I am Justin Varyer. And joining me on the line, it is Jonathan Charks. What's up, my friend? Man, I woke up this morning with some big news about Jared Vanderbilt, and I'm thinking about it all day. It's a crazy world we live in.

We're still very excited. Sharks is talking about the big four-team, 12-player deal that got struck in the Wii hours. Pacific Time last night. Isaac is also here. What's up, buddy? I guess we're going to call this the Vanderbilt trade. I was thinking more the Jordan Bell trade, you know. A lot of headliners for this one, for sure.

Or the Hernan Gomez trade. Right. We'll get to that in the second. So we are recording this at 10.50 a.m. Pacific time. So about 25, 24 hours until the trade deadline buzzer goes off. But we have a lot to talk about with this one. Obviously, a lot of players involved, a lot of teams involved. And if I were to guess, as things are kind of the rumors and Scuttle Butt is trickling out here, this might be the biggest deal that we'll get before the deadline. So let's jump right into it. So the deal details, which might take me a while to get to in Charks, if I forget any. second round picks or guys who play in Europe, let me know. This is who each team gets, not necessarily who they gave up. So the Hawks get Clint Capella and Nenei, the Nuggets get Gerald Green, Noah Vonle, Shabaz Napier, Keita Bap's Jop.

I probably screwed that up. The Uppes D'Ap, thank you, Isaac. All right, we're doing great here. Houston's 2020 first round pick. The Rockets get Robert Covington and Jordan Bell. The Timberwolves get Malik Beasley, Wancho Heron Gomez, Jared Vanderbilt, Evan Turner, the God, and the Nets' 2020 first round pick. And it might not be done yet.

Woge had a report right before the end of the night there, probably around like 12 or midnight actually, suggesting that the Rockets, because of the way the deal was constructed, still have a window in which they could add up to 12 million in salary for another player. So it's possible knowing Daryl Morey, knowing how some of these other teams operate, that he could turn this into a five-team deal. I'm not sure what the maximum is.

Maybe you can even get to six. knowing Darrell, but they do have holes. So is that because, like, they have a trade exception and they can, like, acquire someone the trade exception? No, I think it's because of the – because, no, because you would get the trade exception after the deal is actually constructed. I think it's just because of the way there's money going in and out that this window exists. And I saw reporting from Albert DeMod, who is a cap expert, who has a lot of good info on

Twitter. He focuses on the heat, but he also talks about the NBA at large. He also suggests that the Hawks have a similar window. but for a slightly less amount, I believe it was around $6 million. So this could get even bigger down the road. But for now, let's focus on these four teams. Charks, let's start about with the most important team, I think, for this one. It's not the wolves.

I'm sorry to say, my friend. But we can get to them at the top of the second segment. Let's start with the Rockets. For them, what do you think about this deal? They get Robert Covington and Jordan Bell. Yeah, it feels like they're finally doubling down on who they really want to be. I think, you know, over the last few years, whenever it really came down to it, the playoffs in those Warriors series.

It was always Peter Tucker at the 5. So playing pure small ball going all in on that. And if ever there was going to team that was going to go all the way in on it, it's probably Houston, right? Like, because a lot of teams play small. Like, they'll go small as the game goes on. But they always have, like, the one big man

who starts the game. But Houston, like, that's gone now. Capella's gone. There's no center on their roster anymore, essentially. And now it's just, it's like, this is what's meant to happen. Right?

It had happened eventually. Let's see what it looks like. They have all small all the time. And then having Covington really helps with that too because you have bigger wings to let you go smaller. Yeah, it kind of feels like they're leaning into how they got here in the first place. They had that incredible season two season and go, yes, in part because James Hardin just decided to dominate the entire league, played like an MVP that season, then won the MVP eventually. It does feel like that is their best approach. and while Capella was a significant part of that,

as they've progressed, as they leaned more into ISO ball, Capella just wasn't as useful as another wing player because the way they're operating now is essentially James Hardin at times can be the biggest player on the court. I mean, it's funny because I think PJ Tucker's listed around the same height and weight as Hardin, but I remember seeing them earlier in the season, I'm like, PJ Tucker is way smaller than James Hardin,

or at least the way they look like it. the court. And so you have a lot of guys just spreading the floor that's going to have fewer opportunities for Clicopella who's more of a pick and roll player. Yes, he scores on cuts. But the biggest benefit to being a player off of James Hardin is just to stand there in the corner, which is basically PJ Tucker's primary function on offense. One question I have for you, Charks, though, this deal hinges from the Rockas perspective a lot on Robert Covington. So what is your opinion of Covington now as a player and how he fits into Houston? I mean, I think he's a perfect fit.

He's actually started in Houston like, what, seven right years ago now? He was one of the guys they kind of found in the G League. They kind of turned him into this like spot up shooter. I think it's the perfect guy for the way they want to play. Like, he's going to spread it out even more. He doesn't really, you know, when you're playing with James Hardin, you don't get to dribble very much. And with Westbrook, too.

And Covington will never dribble. He'll stay in the corner. He'll guard three or four positions. He's kind of in their window to win now. He's 29. Yeah, and like you were saying, Justin, it reminds me a lot. You remember when they hired Dan Tony? And there was like the one thought, okay, we're going to get a new head coach.

We probably should like go back to the middle, play more defense, like play a more normal style. And they're like, not forget that. We're going all in again on what we want to do. Right. And it's not all over again. It's like, no, we're going to play smaller and faster. Did you see the Pelicans game on Sunday? Yes.

And like they were starting against favors in Zion. and they had like Daniel House and Tucker up front. And it's so counterintuitive because you think there's no way this is going to work. They're going to crush on the boards. And they did. But it was like, you know what? We shoot more three, so who cares?

Right. And I believe Harden to start that game started guarding Derek Favors, who's quite a large man, if you're not aware. Yeah, it's funny. The thing that I thought about when this all went down and as we started to hear rumors suggesting that, it could go down,

I flash back to the Sun's era of Antony teams where they tried to zig toward the way they thought they should play by acquiring shack, right? They get this big center. Yeah. That's the way that team should play. And then they got that done. And then they realized that's not who they are.

They settled back on more of an identity toward what they were previously. And then things worked out better. They didn't win a title or anything and perhaps missed their best window for this. But, you know, it worked out better. And that's what this reminds me of. I also think it's interesting. And Charks, this is something you wrote about on the site last week. they aren't prioritizing a center, yes,

but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a center in function. You have been a big advocate for Russell Westbrook almost playing like a center. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah, so I wrote this piece right before the start of the new year

and really in the last two weeks, kind of the other part of the story for Houston as Capella's been out, they basically turned Russ into a center in terms of his shot profile. He stopped shooting threes. In the last eight games Russ has played, he's only taken 11 three-pointers.

So what he's done is like, I can't shoot, so I'm going to stop taking shots I can't make. And the shots that he can make are near the rim. And even looking back in December, the numbers are always, Russ and Hardin were always better without Capella on the floor, which makes sense because if Russ is not shooting and Capella is not shooting, there's just not enough space. Right. And so I think when they traded Russ for Paul, the only way that you, trade was going to work was if they lean into what Russ does well.

So we're going to use Russ as this bigger point guard who can grab rebounds and kind of play bigger than his size and make up for that by dropping a center and adding space so he can contribute. Because with Chris Paul, you have a smaller guy who can space the floor. So we're going to flip that, get a bigger guard who can attack the rim, and then space more for him by playing smaller big men. Right. Yeah, I think it's interesting because we think of the rockets in the sense that they're a very extreme team, right? And in a lot of ways, we kind of pigeonhole that thinking is that they only do this thing, right? That they only spread the floor, they only play a certain way.

But I think the thing that we've seen about Daryl is that he thinks outside the box, but not in one specific way, if that makes sense. He's just continually adapting to the current environment. We see that with the way he structures contracts. And we're seeing it now in the way that they're kind of changing, the way that people almost look at positions. I think it's really interesting, especially when we look at a lot of teams around the league.

If we look at the teams that have been most successful, even like, for instance, the Warriors, to start a new error to spark something new, it's thinking differently. And this kind of like, it reminds me of that a little bit. And so I think I have a bigger picture question just coming off of this trade,

which is what does this mean for the value of centers if a team like the Rockets is giving up a pretty good, let's say above average center on an okay contract in Klincapella in order to add another wing player and basically put your point guard or shooting guard, whatever you want to categorize Russ as right now, as functionally your center and your closing lineups. It's a really fascinating question.

I think as I've talked to people around the league, the more it seems like is center is becoming a two-track position. Either you have your Nicola Yokich's, either your center is your best player, your primary option, and you move around that, or you go in the exact opposite direction. You play platoon centers.

You space the floor. You don't invest any money in the position. And you treat how the warriors have treated it. So, like, a guy like Capella is kind of caught in the middle and that under those two tracks. Because Capella can't dictate anything. You're never like, oh, man, Capella's on the floor. We better play big to match up with him, right?

He's just there to guard bigger players. But if you're Houston, you're saying, you know what? Like, Clint Capella is not moving the needle. against Anthony Davis or Nicola Yokic anyways. So let's do what we can do against them, and that's go small. And I think what's going to be fascinating is in the West, you have Houston the same kind of bracket as Denver and Utah. And those are both teams whose best player is a center.

And how does like this centerless team function in a first, second round series against Gobert and Yokic? And I think that is going to be fascinating to see how that plays out. Yeah, Gobert and Yokish. And then if you make it past them, Anthony Davis, is waiting and the way the Lakers have played thus far has been with two big men on the court. Tarks, you wrote something this week about how they move Anthony Davis to the five that could unlock a whole new part of them. But right now, that's two big men you have to contend with.

And then if you make it to the finals, you're most likely dealing with Robin Lopez, Brooke Lopez, Yonaz Anteduccoe. So it does feel like around the league teams are bulking up at the center position or at the very least some of the more unique players who are dominating at the moment tend to be large humans who could do a lot of different things. And so, yeah, it's a very interesting zag. And on the one hand, I wonder if the rockets leaning into their identity, maybe they're going too far. Maybe they're just saying we could do what we do.

And if we can't beat them that way, we'll live with it. And that just won't be enough. On the other hand, it seems like everyone is acknowledging what you suggested some of those Scouts were telling you charks is that the center position, you can, get on the cheap. It seems like the market and efficiencies.

There's just big men all around. You could pick up these guys. And everyone kind of is acknowledging it. And yet,

as we're seeing, specifically with the Hawks, and to a lesser extent, the Celtics and some other teams, there are a lot of teams that still need a center. And it still seems like teams are kind of going out there

and prioritizing that and their team builds. And yet, not surprisingly, Daryle Moree is basically saying, I don't know why I say it Moray. I made him sound very French.

Moray. But he is the one, not surprisingly, being like, well, we're just probably going to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Jordan Bell comes in and all the reporting from Tim McMahon and other people suggest they're probably going to be looking on the buyout market or still in the trade market for kind of a cheaper center. And I think it's interesting if you look at the wolves who could have pretty much made this a Covington for Capella swap. And they didn't. And the important thing there is Gerson Roses, now Ron. runs the wolves. He comes from the Rockets kind of brain trust there. He worked with Darrell Mori for a very long time. And so I don't know. I'm kind of torn now where it seems

like this trade specifically from the Rockets perspective is almost like a challenge to centers at large or it feels like a breaking point for the center position. Is that putting too fine of a point out of it? I see what you're saying. The way I look at it, I view the center. We'll talk about Atlanta later. But like a good center. is like a floor raiser, right? Like, if you're a really bad team doesn't play defense, there's still value at 5 who can kind of anchor the defense,

kind of courted everything. It's like when New Orleans brought back Derek favors from injury in the midseason and kind of got better. Like, if you're really, really bad and you want to get to average to decent, then a good center makes sense. But Roses, he's a Houston guy.

And the Houston guys, they never think about, let's get to be decent. They're always thinking for, like let's go for it all. And like there's such a big risk for that. And we'll talk about with Atlanta. Like Atlanta spent two years going full process and saying, we're going for it all.

We're doing this. We're making this massive rebuild. And they caught a bunch of losses. And I think now they're like, oh, shoot, we got to win some amount of games. And so they, I think, are being a little more conservative right now in this trade. Whereas Houston, Minnesota, you know what, Justin, you only live once, right? You only run an NBA team one time. Miles will go out doing what you want to do.

Right. I respect that. Right. Yes, Sharks often says Yolo quite loud as he files his draft for his blogs. No, I think that's a good segue way to talk about the Rockets in the grand scheme of things then. So if we're looking at the West,

obviously the two L.A. teams are currently at the top, much to Isaac's glee and happiness. Where does the Rockets? I'll give you a snapshot of the West right now. It's the Lakers, the Clippers, the Nuggets, the Jazz, the Rockets, Mavs, Thunders, Grizzlies, obviously the first couple teams there

have separated themselves from some of the bottom teams with Covington in the mix with Houston where do they fit in the Graham's scheme of thing in the West specifically? You know what's funny

for much we talked about Houston I still kind of think they're in the middle I still would put the LA teams above them but I do think this trade might help them push to the top

of that middle pack because I do think if they had Capella and Russ against Denver and Utah it's so easy to guard those guys in a series that they might have really kind of been in trouble with those. But now that they're kind of spreading out more for Hardin,

I think this puts them back in the top of the second tier. But if you're talking about the Clippers and the Lakers, you know, it's still the Lakers have LeBron and Anthony Davis. The Clippers have Kauai and Paul George. The Rockets have Russ and James Hardin. Like, I'm going for those first four guys every time. Don't forget about Jordan Bell. Hey.

He's going to be playing a lot of minutes for this team, especially if they don't get a center here coming up. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think it definitely sorts into tiers with the two LLA teams in the first one. And then the Nuggets, jazz and Rockets and the Mavs, depending on their health, Luca isn't playing right now. And Chris Os Przingas seems like he's hurt every other day. I would say that the Rockets are still in that same tier, but they're much more badass.

They're like, they're in that tier, but now wearing a leather jacket and sunglasses. This team just seems way more dangerous than it used to be. I think because they're pushing the center position, the way that they're, they are. And it's, they're almost like a little bit more unpredictable. They're basically saying, we can't match up with Anthony Davis. We can't match up with Gobert. But we're going to do something completely different. And we're going to force you to match up with us. And it's worked in the past. They beat the, the jazz last year in the first round. Do you remember that game, you see the game, uh, where Russ and Hardin were out against the jazz last week and Gordon had 50 points?

Right. It was kind of crazy. Tucker was at the five, the whole game. Goberius 3.1, Eric Gordon just went off. Yeah, I mean, there's still a very dangerous. That's a great point. They still have Gordon, who's coming back, are working his way back from injury. And I do wonder, so as we look at the rockets and what they could do within the past,

or the remaining 24 hours or so, they have for this deadline, everyone is assuming that they're going to go out and get another center, which I think is a safe bet. I think they'll probably pick up someone. They really only have Bell and Tyson Chandler on their roster's at true.

centers. Well, Hartnstein, too. Hartenstein, right, who plays sparingly, and I'm not sure he'll get on the court in the playoff series. It seems like they're going at the moment until they can fill that position with PJ Tucker as their starting center, and then Babelsov has been playing backup up center.

Yeah, he's the backup five. Which is incredible. But I do, I'm curious, like, what if the Rockets went the other way, and now all of a sudden they're in the Bogdan Bananovich conversation? Wouldn't that just make them even more scary? I like quadrupling or what's it

sink tupling down whatever the word is I like that idea okay I don't know if Boggins available but I think that makes more sense to me like getting got me Marcus Morris right do that right yeah I guess I'm looking at what they have here they don't really have players to trade anymore but they still

have two first round picks burning a hole in their pocket they gave up a lot of future ones in the trade for Russell Westbrook which man can they trade those because of all the extra provisions on them step in role moved yeah I believe what would have to happen is one might be a swap. I would have to double check on this, but I think one of them is movable, though they owe a lot

as a result of that Westbrook trade. They just gave up their 20-20-first in this trade. So it's going to be a little bit more complicated, but they have stuff to move with or maneuver with. So I'm interested. If they don't go the Bogdan route, they don't go something a bit more extreme. Is there a center you like on the market that could fit into what they're doing? I mean, I think you can find a G-League guy

to burn 15 minutes. I think also worth pointing out for Houston or two other considerations we probably should mention. Number one, I believe moving Capella gets them out of the luxury tax, right? And that's clearly been a priority for Fertita from the jump.

So it's the same kind of thing as the Rust for the Westbrook trade. Like it also helps them theoretically, but also saves the money. And I think number two, if you're Daryl Morey and everything that happened this last year,

right. You got this new boss. You just cost the NBA like a billion dollars. Right. And you know if this team doesn't want a championship, like it might be it for you. Let's just go for it. I really feel that's part of it too is from the ownership perspective

and the front office perspective. Like, Mori knows there's no turn in the back. Like when he sent that tweet out, he burned all his bridges. Like we're going for it. We're not looking back. Yeah, he's definitely making it right in first round picks. It's funny.

You were talking about that. And I'm looking at the real GM page which about the picks that they owe going forward and it's very clearly like, fuck it, let's just go with this. And like, yes, he definitely needs him probably make up for the China incident or at the very least, the perception amongst the league about Mori

has seemed to turn on him. And so, and especially probably for his owner specifically, and so he's probably feeling a lot more pressure than he did going into the season, or going into the off scene, I should say. But in general, this team isn't getting any younger. I mean, Hardin is playing a lot of heavy minutes and he's playing a lot of hard minutes. Russell Westbrook has played a lot of minutes and has had injury concerns in the past.

PJ Tucker. I was going to say, that's the big thing. How is he going to say healthy for three more months? PJ Tucker is about to be 35 and he's about to be guarding Rudy Gobert in the playoffs. I hope he's getting like just the Dirk Novitsky under the table deal right now because that guy is going through a lot. he needs to be the Dirknevinsky going to Germany deal what he needs But yeah

I'm fascinated by what they're doing I think it's going to be really interesting to watch And quite frankly We need more teams like the Rockets in the NBA It does feel like the league is kind of settled Into the state where we kind of know where teams are Yeah the Hawks are going to get a Clint Capella here And maybe the Sixers will augment their bench

Or try to help win a game on the road finally But you know The Rockets are taking a very bold stance and they're making a very bold statement in trying to push things forward and I respect them for that, which is a good segue into the Timberwolves, just considering that they have some of the same mindset as you're mentioning Charks, Kirsten Roses, again, comes from the Rockets front office. I think the best place to start the wolf segment, though, is with our friend Carl Anthony Towns.

So after the details of this trade came down, Towns did not seem very happy. He put up an Instagram story I was called an IG story But then I was like man I'm wearing new balances today I feel like such a dad Wait are new balances not cool I wear them all the time

Yeah charks I appreciate that If you're Kauai Leonard they're cool Okay Let's just say that Hey you're a clippers fan Isaac We're getting this moving We're starting a new trend

I'm a clippers fan But my loyalties don't run so deep That I would be one of new balances On my own accord Yeah but they're like cool new balances Sure But I'm also 25 years old Yes okay

Me and Justin are in our 30s now, so we got to worry about our backs. Listen, I have a dog. I go to bed at like 10 most nights. Like, this definitely fits my whole aesthetic here. But anyway, Towns posts an IG story of a perturbed-looking Drake, which was, I don't know how to describe that he seems flummoxed and quite upset by something that just happened to him. Just go look it up. I don't know.

But it jives with what he said less than 24 hours earlier, speaking to, I believe, a local reporter specifically about Robert Covington. He says, and I quote, I think it's very obvious he's my best friend on the team. So it would be very difficult if something like that was going to happen, speaking about a trade for Robert Covington. And as we've seen, the wolves traded Robert Covington. But Charks, you are more high on this trade for the wolves than I think I've seen anybody else. Why do you feel this way?

Well, I think the main thing, I've always really liked Malik Beasley. and Wancho Hernan Gomez. So they were drafted in the first round in 2016. And they've kind of always been on the fringes of the rotation in Denver. They've never, I guess Beasley played a lot last year. But they've never really gotten the chance to show what they can do. And I think if you're a team like Minnesota, so they're in a tough spot because, right,

they have to like win now with towns, but they have no actual assets and they have no flexibility. And the draft doesn't help them at all because, right? So they can't draft guys because, right? guys, because if it takes a guy two or three years to be good, by that point, town's already on the way out the door. So they have to kind of like square a circle. Like, they have to find undervalued young players around the league who need a bigger role. And if you're going to do that, Denver's a great place to look. Like, Denver's drafting over the last five years has been incredible.

Denver, if they draft someone, that guy's probably pretty good. They don't draft guys who can't play. It isn't just like Yokic. I mean, they drafted Nurkich, Harris, Jamal Murray, Monti Morris, all these guys are all over the draft, they finding value. I look at Beasley and Wancho, and they look like perfect players around towns going forward. So Beasley's a 6-4 shooting guard who can really shoot it. Good athletic ability, can defend multiple positions. Wancho's like a 6-9 combo forward.

He can shoot enough. And I think, okay, now they're towns' age. They're both guys who want to prove themselves. They're both going to be free agents this summer. I think, like, who knows how good they'll be in bigger roles, but they've always played well in smaller roles. So now let's go for it. And I wrote an article today about it.

And I think if you're Minnesota, you have to look at it like, I'm going to go back a little bit. Do you remember Tobias Harris and Eric Bloodssoe when they were first traded from their first teams? They were benched guys backing up really good, established players. And no one knew how good they were until they got to a new team.

And so, okay, now I have a bigger rug and show what I can do. So now we'll see what those two guys can do. Because if they can play at a high level, that gives them two starters. And I think that of a Minnesota need more anything is just good players. They had none on that roster. I think you make very good points. I think both players have shown that they have a lot of talent.

Beasley in particular in last year's playoffs. Both are shooting well, which I think the wolves need a lot of. I think I saw a stat from Calvin Pelton last night that the two best three-point shooters on the wolves right now are Carl Anthony Towns and Gorgie Jane. If you're not aware, they're both centers. So it's not a good look for a team in general. but especially a team that's run by someone from the Rockets who is ostensibly more on the progressive side. Yeah, they had the worst shooting wings in the league.

They were playing like Acogee and the rookie Culver, Trevion Graham. They couldn't should have their lives. And Cow is being double-teamed all the time. He's got to get shooters around him. Right, and they still don't have a point guard. And so Culver is functionally the point guard for the time being at the very least. my concern from their perspective on this trade is yes, Beasley has talent,

Wancho has talent, but they are going to be restricted free agents this summer. And Beasley in particular turned down an extension offer, reported extension offer for three years, 30 million from the Denver Nuggets. And so you wonder, A, is he worth that contract? And on the open market where there are a few teams with a lot of money, is someone going to overpay and functionally make this just unpalatable for the the wolves enough where they don't end up with both players, but they only end up with the draft pick. I think that is possible that they're going to get big contracts because the teams that

have space this summer, it's Atlanta, Memphis. Like, I was thinking for the longest time, Malik Beasley to Memphis next year. That would have been a lot of sense to me. I think if you're Minnesota, it doesn't matter because who's your core right now after Towns? It's Carl Towns. It's Andrew Wiggins who we'll talk about later, you see KOC's report last night, that's pretty interesting. And then it's maybe Jared Culver, and that's it. Like, there's no one else on your roster you're building around going forward. You've got to get talented players and you've got to pay for them. And this is your one shot to do it. Yeah. And I guess the counter to my initial argument would also be that it seems like a lot of the trades aren't happening this deadline because

people don't have the right contracts in order to trade them. And so in order to get DeAngelo Russell, which is a rumor that's been circulating for the past couple days now, they would have had to trade or the worries would have had to accept Andrew Wiggins as the salary to match. KOC wrote about that last night for the site. You should check that out. I mean, much love to KOC because that was, he was really selling Wiggins hard. Like if they could sell Wiggins to Golden State, I'll shake your hands.

No, it's crazy, though, because I edited that piece. And as he was going through the argument, I was like, this makes a lot of sense. It does, right? You can talk yourself into it for sure. Because he has the talent. If the Warriors need anything, they need someone to defend

and just play off of Clay Thompson and Steph Curry. And is Wiggins that much worse of an offensive player than Andre Aguadala? He's a much worse defensive player, obviously. Yes, yes, totally. But I guess the whole... hope would be if you're going to, you're going to gamble on Wiggins is that he would end up being kind of the player. We thought he would be going into the draft, which is more of a defensive

player, where the offense kind of comes and goes or base more off of athleticism, cuts, other stuff. But here's the thing with that. Yeah. Wiggins is getting paid like $50 million a year, and he's always taking a lot of shots his whole career. He's not 24. I'm not sure you can sell him on, oh, go somewhere and play 25 minutes a night and cut off Steph and Clay. I don't know they'd be happy doing that. It would be a big risk. Yes, he makes a ton of money.

I'm not sure how the Warriors... If they couldn't stomach paying DeAngel Russell $28 million, I'm not sure how they would feel paying Andrew Wiggins about the same amount. Yeah, there's a lot to that. But I think it's interesting as we looked for the wolves going forward. I think you make a good point. So it helps A, just to have players that you could trade or, you know, believe it or not, actually play them next to Towns

and give him somebody, anybody to help him out here. But it does still feel, like they're in this situation that the Pelicans were in with Anthony Davis a couple of years ago. Yes, it does. It does feel that way. Now, I know I make this reference pretty much towards the pod, but it just smacks of that just

because the Pelicans signed Anthony Davis to a contract extension coming off of that 2014-15 season where everything seemed like it was lining up. The team had finally broke into the playoffs. It seemed like they were the next big thing. They were in vogue. They had all these young players and everything was great. And then, in addition

to Davis, they re-signed, Alex Aisha and Omar Ashik that same summer, and then everything fell apart from there. They only made one other playoff appearance from there. And so, yeah, maybe it sucks for towns right now this season or maybe even next season to take the long road. But as we saw with Davis, rushing the process just, like, also isn't much of an answer.

So I don't know. The wolves are quietly in kind of a shitty position right now. Yeah, like I've been looking at their team this year, and all I can think was, man, This was a tough job to take because, like, the important moves are made four or five years ago. And now we're seeing the effects of them. And now you're behind the eight ball. You're having to scramble.

And, like, for as optimistic as we can be about this trade, they still have no point guard. And you look around the league and teams not a good playmaker don't win very much. And how do they get that good point guard? I'm not sure. That part is still, they've got to find some way to trade Wiggins for a point guard probably. And how it's going to happen, I have no idea. Right. And despite everything that's already happened here, it does sound like they're still pretty hot for DeAngelo Russell. I'm just not sure how that happens at this point. Because I guess it would have to just be draft assets plus Wiggins in order to get it done. Yeah. And I'm thinking about from Golden State's perspective, right? They need players who can help them now, right? They don't need more draft picks. If anything, my guess is, Golden State moves their pick this summer. They don't need a draft. 19-year-old when Steph's in his early 30s.

They need a guy who's going to help Steph win now. Right. So if that's all you have to offer to the Warriors, why would they accept that? I mean, Shams even had a report last night as all this was kind of going down, that the wolves weren't willing to meet Golden State's price. And if you're going to take draft assets

and, God forbid, Andrew Wiggins, you want to be bowled over by a trade like that because just what you were mentioning, Jars, they don't really have time. And I think from the wolves perspective, I think it's really interesting. You would guess around a similar timeline, not only because of everything we talked about,

but it does feel like stars want results sooner now. And as we've seen this summer, it wouldn't surprise me if Towns is already kind of barking about, like, wanting out this summer. And so that brings me to back to Russell. So it's going to take a lot to get him. But what do you think about the fit with Russell and towns if that is ultimately what they're going to go forward with

or try to accomplish no matter what? and if not Russell, who would be a good fit with Towns? You know, if you look at the numbers this year, it's weird. So when Towns in the game, Minnesota is an elite offense and absolutely terrible defense. When Towns isn't in the game, they are an elite defense and an absolutely terrible offense. And it almost seems like whoever they acquire, they've got to get Kat to play defense. And that's been to me one of the biggest mysteries of this whole thing. because I were watching him in Kentucky,

and he was a really good defensive player. He did his role. He protected the rim. He guarded the perimeter. He was part of as, like, elite defense. He was kind of the quarterback of it. He was the Anthony Davis of that team, or six years ago now.

And he gets to the NBA, and he starts just jacking shots, and he stops playing defense. And if Kat's not going to play defense, there's a ceiling to the scene no matter what happens. And that, to me, is the one concern about the stratify Minnesota,

is that Covington helps Kat play defense. And now you bring in two young guys who want to, like, prove themselves and take a lot of shots up and down defensively. That, to me, is like the concern. And then with Russell, too, if Russell is on your team, then Kat better be playing really good defense. So you're definitely in trouble. Yeah.

And based on everything that we're hearing about the draft, it doesn't seem like even if they did want to go that route, pairing towns with a guy that they pick at the top or near the top of the draft, that guy might not be there. Well, you have a better feel for the draft right now. If they were to keep their pick, let's say, who would be probably the best target for them? Lamello? He's the best point guard.

Yeah. I mean, he gives you a point guard. Basically, this draft, it's a very hit or miss draft. Like, you look at people's draft boards, they're going to be guys at two or three. Other guys have 15. There's really no consensus at all. And Lamello's probably the best point guard to run for the point guard direction. But so Lombello's defensive numbers in Australia are unbelievable.

He's like in the zero percentile in like five. In Australia, yes. Well, not what you want to see out there, especially as we were saying, that the wolves with concern is on the defense event. Although, I guess if you have guys like Beasley, keep guys like Wancho around, maybe in towns, obviously is an excellent three-point shooter.

Perhaps that mitigates what Lamello can't do because that also seems like a bit of a concern. Let's take a break right here. And when we come back, We're going to talk about the other half of this trade, including a team that also can't play defense. Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Microsoft Teams. Hey, NBA show fans, we all know meetings. Struggling to pay attention, files seem impossible to find.

We're secretly streaming the game on our laptop while nervously tapping our foot below the conference room table. And if you're not in a room, you're not in the no. Luckily, there's a solution for all the meeting-related issues that we constantly complain about. Welcome to the new slam dunk to work together, Microsoft Teams. Using Microsoft Teams is one play that's guaranteed to work every time, where you can contribute to meetings from anywhere, even on the court. Chat with coworkers, so you're never out of the loop, find all your files, and even edit them in real time in one convenient place.

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the office for the meeting that wasn't about me anyway. way, learn more about how to improve your work efficiency at Microsoft.com slash teams. That's Microsoft.com slash teams. All right, we're back. Charks, Isaac, talking about the trade that shook the NBA. We talked about the rockets and we talked about the wolves. And now we're going to talk about the Hawks, everyone's favorite team, or at least everyone's darling coming into the season. But nobody has probably heard of them since.

Charks, so they end up just to recap in this deal. they end up with Clint Capella and Nene. They gave up Evan Turner and the Nets first round picks, so not their own, presumably that will be much, much better than where the Nets land in the draft. How do you see this from the Hawks perspective? Is this a win for them? I think there's two separate tracks here.

I think short term, it's definitely a win. The biggest problem for Atlanta this season, beyond the overall lack of talent, is that when Collins was out, their centers were Damien Jones, Bruno Fernando, Alex Lenn, just really, really bad. And they just could not guard anyone.

And they were losing games from the jump. Like, they had no chance to win a lot of the games they were in this year. And I think by having Capella, you do give, like we talked about, kind of a floor raiser. And now my assumption would be that they'll either have Capella or John Collins at the five, the entire game. And I think that really just helps them be more respectable,

which is where they need to be right now. But the long-term question is that fit between Capella and John Collins. And because right now, Collins are second best player. Can him and Capella fit? And does that, like, have they raised their floor at the cost of their ceiling? Yeah, my question about the Hawks' end of this trade is way more big picture for them. Because Capella seems like a fine player. He seems like he will be good in that system.

It also seems like he will create good chemistry with Trey Young in the pick and roll. he could probably do for Young what Capella did for Hardin to a certain extent. I mean, obviously different players, but at the very least, he's a good role man who provides vertical spacing in some defense when he is healthy and engaged. I think my question is that.

The Hawks built this team via the draft with a very specific perspective. They wanted to, they prioritized essentially fit over best available talent. This draft class was a prime example of that, trading up to get D'Andre Hunter because they thought they fit into what they already had. My question then is if Capella and Collins can't play together, what happens to Collins? And so that has a trickle-down effect.

Would it have been better to go for somebody else in the draft if you were just going to switch things up now? And I also wonder why all of a sudden we're hitting the accelerate button to begin with because we're like, what, two, three years into their version of the process. and the problem with the process to begin with was people got upset with Hinky, they were losing too much, they weren't respectable, and they forced him to go out and make kind of silly trades.

I remember trading what, two second round picks for Ishmith. At a certain point, a guy that they had in their system, it just like, it didn't work. And so I'm seeing signs of that, and I'm getting a little bit worried that A, the blueprint was a little flawed to begin with, and B, they're not going to have enough time

to even execute that blueprint. Does that sound fair? I think so. I think the only thing they can really lean on is that Collins is shooting threes a little bit this year, and you limit it to like 15 minutes a game where they're both playing. But I think that's definitely a big concern.

And it's exactly what you said. The process always sounds good at the start of it. When you're like, oh, we'll be a championship contender. Fans always want to do that. But the fans who want to do that are the fans who are going to watch the team regardless, right? The fans on the internet on Reddit who are thinking big picture

who watched the draft who listen to the podcast like ours but the fans who pay for tickets they're not going to want to watch a 10-win team for very long. It's miserable. Miserable to be around. It's brutal. It just sucks. The players hate it. And it doesn't really feel like

you know what to me? It's almost like the end of the air for the process because of the way the draft is changing and how the odds are way more evened out now. Like Atlanta really gets no benefit for being such a bad team this year. Like, their odds to be to win the lottery are still really, really, really low. So what's the point in processing? I think that's to me kind of where this looks like is

that's over. Like, they had their years of bottoming out. They've got to start winning games. Like, realistically, they've got to start winning like 30 games next year. Or if you're Travis Schling, you might be out of a job. Yeah. And I also question about the way they manage their books because they have a ton of cap space coming up this summer or they are going to. They basically going to have two max slots. And everything you heard about them going into the deadline was it was too much money to have to the point where they were looking at acquiring Andre Drummond just to soak up some of that money. There's not going to be a lot of players available on the open market this year, especially players who are worth that amount of money. And yeah, they can keep rolling over their books.

But they have so much money that they probably couldn't even do that. They couldn't even do this sort of the Sam Hinky S trade that they have. have taken on and started to execute themselves where they just rent out their cap space for future draft assets, which is a solid move, but there's only so long you could do it. And so it's almost like they played

the free agency game unwisely because, and next summer, not in the 2020 summer in 2021, is going to be the one where a lot of the bigger names there's going to start to come up. Yonis Antenetic Kumpo is the biggest one,

a couple other guys. But it doesn't seem like they have a good read on the free agency game and as we've seen across the league this summer in particular that's kind of

what's going to dictate the fate of the league and so I do wonder if there's almost this like bigger question looming over them where it's like even if you execute

your little process rebuild perfectly you're still not going to get in the mix for the players that dictate the fate of the league

and so I'm just confused I don't know they make out fine in this trade they're better with Capella than without him. And they really didn't give up much for him.

I mean, yeah, Evan Turner, but literally gave up nothing. If you're looking at the specifics of the trade, if you're looking if they won the trade or lost the trade, I'd say they came out on top. But in the bigger picture, I have much bigger concerns. Let's pivot to the Nuggets now briefly. I think for the Nuggets, I don't really have much to say. I think I'm more just perplexed.

they give up two players who they probably weren't going to play a lot this season down the stretch. They ended up with two guys for their bench and Noah Vonle and Shabaz Napier. Gerald Green is going to get waived and I don't know what Bates Diop is going to end up for this team, but Vonle and Napier

kind of overlap with a lot of guys that they already have on their team. Shabazz is essentially their fourth point guard and Von Ley helps plug the hole for the injury with Mason Plumley, but Plumley will be back, you'd presume by the playoffs,

and so he's probably not going to play a lot. They do get this 20-20-first-round pick from Houston, which is something. But I don't know how to feel about this. A lot of people are suggesting that this is going to set up another bigger move down the road, but for now, I'm just kind of shrug-moji. How do you feel about this?

To me, it's just an asset move. This is preserving the asset down the road, because you know this summer, I were talking about Atlanta, they would love to have Beasley and Wancho. And they have the cap space to burn to sign those guys. So if you're Denver, you know, okay, this is my ninth and tenth man. I cannot pay them $10 million a year to not play. I just make any sense.

We're a small market team. So they're gone anyways. So we spin it forward. We have another draft pick. We draft really, really well. So we turn this pick another good player. I'll keep the asset tree moving because if you're Denver, you know you're a small market team, not a freeing destination.

You're going to have to have good young players to trade them for bigger stars down the road for like a Bradley deal or whoever. And this helps you do that because, you know, next year, Beasley has gone anyways, Wancho's gone anyways, they're not helping you win now. So to me, for them, this is purely an asset move and it doesn't really move the needle. Like you said, I'd be surprised if Vonley or Shabazz play at all in the playoffs. So to me, this is about getting a pick for those guys and spinning it forward. Yeah, I guess it will hurt if they do.

have injuries to some of those positions that Beasley and Wancho played and all of a sudden they need those guys. But I think you're right. This does feel like the longer term play. And it does set them up for a player who could make a substantial difference because I'm not sure any of these guys or any of the guys we're seeing on the market right now are going to be that, especially if Drew Holiday doesn't end up getting traded if the pelicans are going to pull clutch and perhaps wait best case until the summer in order to start having those

conversations. It seems like this could end up being the best thing for the. nugs, but they're kind of an incomplete right now if we're doing grades for them. As we're doing this, by the way, Isaac just alerted me to a Kelly Eco. He is an athletic reporter who covers the Rockets. He says a source tells him the Rockets closing in on a deal for a center, currently talking to two Eastern Conference teams. In addition to a center, they're willing to take on additional salary in exchange for

assets. We'll see about that whole part about taking on additional salary because as Charks Menson, they have not been willing to do that since Tillman Furtita bought the team. Yeah, they've been moving salary to take rid of it. assets last two years. So we'll see about that. Yeah. But we'll see who they end up getting because I do think that is kind of the unknown here, how much they're willing to push the boundaries on the center position. But let's wrap it up here, Charks. Big picture, who is your biggest winner from this trade? I'm going to say Houston. I think they're better now. It's a win now

move. I think Houston turned up. I think they did well with what they got. Yeah, I would also turn to Houston, and I would turn to Darry specifically, as we alluded to, our guy just needed a win here. It seems like he's had a rough six months. And it showed that, like, you know, in the job of actually jamming, he is quite competent, and he is willing to roll the dice. And as I said, that's just, it's exciting. I feel way more excited about the Rockets in this season than I did before. Justin, the biggest winner is us, the content creators out here.

There's a lot to talk about. So we appreciate you, Daryl. Especially if Russ does get foisted into more of a center position, and then ultimately we'll gripe about that because then that will start a new cycle of content, and the world just gives back to us, you know? It never ends. It never ends.

Let's flip to the other side. Biggest loser, I might say Capella, if only because... I saw that. Yeah, our guy is going from a sure-fire playoff team to a team that currently has 13 wins. yeah, maybe he'll have a bigger role for that team and maybe they'll be better next year. For now, his next couple months

are probably going to be pretty boring. He's probably just going to be hanging out of Chick-Fle. See, I think I saw that. I was like, you know, he's a big winner. I bet Capella's excited. Really? He's like, I'm going to show what I can do. I want to shoot jump shots.

I want to be James Hart's ball board for five more years. Like, playing in Houston is tough, man. It's a tough team. The ball never moves. You never get to do anything. Your role's so limited. I think the people in Houston don't like

playing there, a lot of them. I think Capella's like, all right, I'm on a young team now. I'm sure in his mind thinking I'm going to be an all-star in Atlanta. I bet he's pumped. Yeah, I did think it was funny, though, that all of a sudden, Clint Capella it came out that he had planar fasciitis. He missed, like, I believe, three of the past

four games in which the Rockets really leaned into small ball, especially against the Pelicans, as Sharks was mentioning up top. But then it smacked of, like, my injury is much worse. Please don't trade me. I don't want to go anywhere else. See, I would think they were going to hold him out so it doesn't get hurt any worse. That'd be my guess.

As they were like, don't play on this injury and make it worse. We want to trade you. That's the beauty of the trade deadline. Who's to say? I would also bring up the Celtics. It does feel like they needed to do something here. And Capella made a lot of sense for them. Probably wasn't overpay to get to the center,

but if they could have made it work out so they didn't give up any part of their core or any of their best like four or five players, including Marcus Smart, who's the guy that they would need to make a lot of the salaries match. I think it probably would have worked out for the best, especially if they're going to go up against the bucks and the Sixers in the playoffs. But I guess we'll see here. Let's wrap it up there.

We will be back on the Ringer NBA show. I believe the mismatch is going to handle the post-decline reaction for us. Bill Simmons and Ryan Rusillo will also be doing a live show on the website, and I believe there will be an audio component afterward, just breaking down everything as it happens. in real time for the trade deadline. And of course, readtherringer.com, where we will be talking about all sorts of stuff.

Charks will be writing. I will not be. I will be editing a lot of things and occasionally be tweeting random thoughts and jokes that you do not find funny. But until then, for Charks, for Isaac, I am Justin. We will see you next time. Have a good one, y'all. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.